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<BODY><XMP>From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 22:45:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 1 May 101 14:38:57 US/Central
Subject: [TML] The Best of the TML
Message-ID: <200105012050.f41KoX802336@premier1.premier.net>

> Now that the TML has a website (http://tml.travellercentral.com), I suggest
> we pull out the best postings on the list for a 'best of the TML' section of
> the website.  We need to create some mechanism for selecting "best ofs".
> Any suggestions?
> 
> The recent article on "Smart Fabrics" strikes me as a good candidate for the
> "Best Ofs".
> 
> What is the list members' opinion.

I suggest that there should be several categories of "Best of the TML" posts.  
Categories might include Toys (gearhead designs/ideas), Societies, 
Worldbuilding, Links, and Chrome (miscellaneous nifty stuff, such as Smart 
Fabrics).

Unfortunately, I have no idea how to implement an equitable system for 
_choosing_ "BotT"
posts.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 22:45:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Myers)
Date: Thu Jun 20 23:08:56 2002
Subject: [TML] sup.12 request [munchkin rant]
In-Reply-To: <MNEIJOCDFNHAIPMCMHEKEENICAAA.mickscan@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <200107020959.CAA09049@smtpout.mac.com>

I have the original, it's a corker. :-) The included scenario is a real 
example of how to deal with Big Secrets without upsetting the balance of 
power. It's the anti-SOTA (which I love as well, strangely).

- Rob.

On Sunday, July 1, 2001, at 11:07  am, Michael Scanlon wrote:

>
> I'm looking forward to the Alien Supplements to be out, which is looking
> like to be some time yet though. In particular I'm after the Darrian
> Supplement

--
JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex
Quarterly 2300AD Journal.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 22:45:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 101 17:28:59 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Filk of Veracruz
Message-ID: <200107262340.f6QNeYj00180@premier1.premier.net>

> What and whose melody is this song sung to?

The original song is Warren Zevon's "Vera Cruz," which can be found on the 
album "Excitable Boy."  It deals with the punitive expedition against Pancho 
Villa in (IIRC) 1916.

Tres cool stuff (both the original and Doug's filk).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 22:45:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 101 18:35:33 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Traveller IRC
Message-ID: <200109120047.f8C0lPw19555@premier1.premier.net>

Yes mr. Zeitlin works in NCP as a system op.  He also lives outside the city 
the last time I heared.  Though I have not been on IRC in a bit.  For the rest 
of you he is the one who runs Free Traveller website.  

Tim Reynolds
aka Grayman


>

 From: "Swordy" <swordworlder@earthlink.net>
> 
>      "anxiously awaiting word from Jeff Zeitlin (of Freelance Traveller) who 
> works for the NYC police dept. :("
> 
> 
>      Has anyone gotten a PING from Mr. Zeitlin?  Mr. Ramen has checked in, 
> fortunately.  There are reports of "massive" casulties among NYPD and FDNY 
> personnel.
>      Doesn't he work in some sort of computer capacity and not a uniformed 
> one?
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> 
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 22:45:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 101 13:35:58 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Re: Donating Blood
Message-ID: <200109121947.f8CJlmw00196@premier1.premier.net>

Hi all

I got this from an archiveing professor just now.
Its a list of "surivors" of the attack.  I have looked at
it and it has a few problems.  
These are the result of it being open to the 
so there are joke entries here and there.
But if it helps someone get more information on their love ones
it works for me.

http://www.ny.com/wtclist.html

Tim Reynolds




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 22:45:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 101 16:42:56 US/Central
Subject: [TML] PCs in the Big Picture
Message-ID: <200109172254.f8HMspw20018@premier1.premier.net>

> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      The horrific events of last Tuesday produced an odd tangent in my 
> thinking, even odd for a Whipsnade.
>      Just how involved are the PCs in your campaigns involved in the "Big 
> Picture"?
>      Using 911 as an example, would your PCs be simple passengers on one of 
> the hijacked flights or a group tracking the hijackers prior to the act or a 
> group after Bin Laden (IF he's behind this) himself?

I do not know if I would use the terms high powered games or lower power games 
when talking about this subject, Maybe High Politics/Low Politics would be 
better.  To me high power games are those where the PCs own 1000 ton patrol 
cruiser and have enough Power Armor to equip a company of mercs.

In either case, I run a mix game trying to do the classic Onion peel thing.  
Players love to know that they saved the Universe even if no else will ever 
know.  I mean this is role playing not your adverage day at work where you have 
to argue that the reason you did not pay your ship(car) payment on time was 
that the ship(car) fuel cost to much.  

Tim Reynolds




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 22:45:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 101 16:35:59 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Re: Red Storm Rising
Message-ID: <200109172247.f8HMltw19476@premier1.premier.net>


> > 
> > Also, IIRC, the critical shortage of oil in the USSR required that the oil
> > fields be captured quickly and _intact_, and the extreme measure of 
attacking
> > NATO was seen as enabling that goal.
> 
> Well that's one of the things that seemed daft. Going to war on two different 
> fronts on only one's existing oil stocks has to be twise a silly as going to 
> war on only one. Besides I never could buy that so much of the Soviet 
> porduction could be destroyed in one hit that this sort of thing would 
> necessary.
> 
> 

Ask the Germans about starting a war with one front just to deal with the 
orginal war in the first place.  Or even the Japan in WWII.  Based on these and 
probably alot of other cases I do not know Red Storm Rising is possible when 
looking at the Political Military side of things and not just either one by its 
self.  


Tim Reynolds



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 22:45:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 101 09:39:46 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Democracy?  Or not?
Message-ID: <200109191551.f8JFpfw02966@premier1.premier.net>


To be honest I am not sure if I am insulted by this or not.  It&#8217;s bad when 
after the 2000 elections everyone here said, thank god it was Florida and not 
us.

Go LSU Tigers.

OT:
I mean every time I build a third world nation/world or think of dirty politics 
I model it off of Louisiana.  Our leaders personalities make for great NPC 
personalities that you just love to hate.  We have bigots, crooks, con men, and 
a police force that was so corrupt at one time that FBI had to take over 
running New Orleans. The patron system is also alive and kicking down here. On 
other hand we actually work and party hard so there is a lot of fun.

So does anyone else use really leaders to models NPC?  Also I think the most 
corrupted systems would also be the most exciting systems?

Tim

> > Sorry, I couldn't let that go.  Taiwan is no more a republic than, say, 
> Louisiana under Huey Long.  Unless your definition of a republic includes 
> vote-buying, legislation by brute force, mafia control of large parts of 
> the government and very low accountability to the people.  Those things are 
> natural, I think, but far from a necessary part of a republic, and 
> certainly not unavoidable in the amounts that they are present here.  I 
> also don't think Taiwan is doomed to this kind of existence forever, but 
> certainly for a while at least.  Democratic values take a long time to 
> foster and mature, and Taiwan has only been a democracy for about 15 
> years.  Confucianism will take quite a while to dismantle.
> 
> -- Rachel
> 
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 22:45:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 101 13:07:26 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Spinward Marches Statistics
Message-ID: <200110021919.f92JJUX21034@premier1.premier.net>

This is cool bit of data.  my next question is what system are they in and who 
wants to draw up the stratgic plans to take them ?

> Hello Folks,
>   After taking a hard look at how many planets in the Spinward Marches have
> the ability to build TL15 (GURPS TRAVELLER TL12) ships, I got to wondering
> about how the Imperium would build its fleets.  The following information
> was gleaned from a GURPS TRAVELLER database.  The translation between the
> GURPS rules and the CT rules is that TL 9 ships include Traveller TL's
> 9,10, and 11 ships.  TL 10 ships include Traveller TL's 12 and 13.  TL 11
> ships include Traveller TL 14, and TL 12 equals Traveller TL 15.  The only
> star ports I included in checking via the database, were Class V (or
> Traveller Class A starports).  Class IV or Traveller class B starports of
> course, can build Battle riders and fighters.
> 
> These are the statistics of the Spinward Marches:
> 
> Starports able to build Jump 1 & 2 ships:		17	
	531,046,053 dTons/year
> Starports able to build Jump 3 & 4 Ships:		11	
	115,450,926 dTons/year
> Starports able to build Jump 5 Ships:		 1		 52,000,000 
dTons/year
> Starports able to build Jump 6 Ships:		 5		676,520,000 
dTons/year
> 
> These values are approximations of the TCS tonnages.  I took the population
> values (without including the population modifier, as this is not in my
> database right now) and subtracted 3 from them, and raising that to the
> 10th power.  Example: a population 9 world would result in a starport that
> could build 10^(9-3) or 1,000,000 dTons.  This is based on the formula that
> read something to the effect of P x pop/1000.  Ignoring P, it works out to
> Pop/1000, or 10^(pop-3).
> 
>        Hal
> 
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 22:45:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 101 13:10:29 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Question/Face to go by
Message-ID: <200110021922.f92JMXX21250@premier1.premier.net>

> At 05:10 PM 10/01/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >David Hackworth's mailing list reprinted a piece from the Sunday Times
> >concerning conditions in Afganistan.
> >
> >Anyone want to see it?
> 
> OK, somebody hold me back.  Please.
> 
> David Hackworth used to be a soldier.  In fact, at one time, he was held
> the distinction of being the most-decorated soldier in the Army.  Then he
> lost his nerve.  He's spent the last thirty years knocking down the force
> he left behind, usually without any real information.

Just so I am picturing this guy right is he the older guy with the gray crew 
cute.  I think he was Col in the Army.  I just can not put a name with a face.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 22:45:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 101 14:20:28 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Enough!
Message-ID: <200110152032.f9FKWfg23633@premier1.premier.net>

Hey Doug not to question the masters or anything but......


> >What makes this the first psionic wave?  The Universe is know to 
> >work in some cylces so maybe this is the second or the one 
> >thousand wve to come from the center.  Could it be that the wave 
> >had something to do with Grandfather's abilities.  Does this mean 
> >that there could actually be more then one grandfather around.  
> >Going on this how many waves, travelling at light speed,  could 
> >there have been if the galaxy is something like 4 billion years old?
> 
> Perhaps it is a regular event, every 300,000 years or so.  This would time
> the last wave with the Ancient's Final War.


I do not have a timeline handy, but wasnt this war only 10,000 years ago?
Now if the war was 300,000 years ago, and the current wave occures simo with 
the destruction of the 3rd Imperium we have some cause and effects going on.
Some how this brings a Star Treck plot thing to mind : )  




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 22:45:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 101 13:55:32 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Re: Magnetic tank armor
Message-ID: <200110162007.f9GK7kg02225@premier1.premier.net>

A question was asked

> >   BTW, does anyone have any estimates on how long the USACE would
> need to upgrade facilities to execute sealifts of armor brigades
> to Afghanistan in the current unpleasantness? :>

I do not know the exact timeing but I do know it will be shorter then the Gulf 
War's rough 6 month execuation time.  This is the results of several 
congressional and executive studies of the whole process and the shock at the 
amount of time it took to carry out the G.W.'s sealift.  I think we need to 
keep one thing in mind Afganistan is landlocked and I do not see US tanks 
rolling through Pakastain to get there.  

So this brings into airlift operations and the deploying of the Kittyhawk as a 
floating airlift base.  When you talk about medium armor I think it should be 
designd for airlift not sealift operations.  Nothing like having 2-3 medium 
tanks dropping out the back of a C-5 on top of the enemies position supported 
by a swarm of gunships and strike aircraft.  

Hmm OT  

I dont have any Space lift operations are covered pretty good




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 22:45:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 101 15:21:48 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Enough!
Message-ID: <200110162134.f9GLY2g07994@premier1.premier.net>

> > On 10/15/01 at 01:51 PM,  Mole <mole@solsec.org> said:
> > 
> >> Ummm... I keep getting these posts dated from 1940
> > 
> >> I think someone needs to check their date and time settings?
> > 
> > I suspect Tim is using a Y2K non-compliant email client...or we just have a
> > real timemachine going on. <g>
> > 
> > Eris
> 
> 
> If there were a time machine I'm sure it would be in the hands of those best
> capable of using it...Citizen...Have you spoken with your local monitor
> lately?
> 
At this time it would not be prudent for me to confirm or deny my possession of 
a time machine.  

Tim





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 22:45:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 101 16:08:12 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Re: Magnetic tank armor
Message-ID: <200110182220.f9IMKQg03666@premier1.premier.net>

Hi everyone

> ....
> >So this brings into airlift operations and the deploying of the Kittyhawk as 
a floating airlift base.  

Ok though you might be able to deploy C130s from the Kittyhawk(remember it deck 
is bigger then a WWII carrier)  I was not referring to fix wing aircraft but to 
helicopter airlift.  However, FYI the DOD has looked into semi fixed naval 
vessels about the size of 3 aircraft carriers, that could launch a C17, and 
have like a pre-positioned Marine force.  When you realize that the current 
Assistant Secretary of State is one of the people arguing for such an idea then 
you see why the Kittyhawk is being deployed this way.  


>When you talk about medium armor I think it should be 


As far as this goes I am talking about near the positions with armor cable of 
fighting in non WWIII conditions for limited operations.  Also I was picturing 
in the future.  I was pointing out that airlifts if you can get the right combo 
of factors working is better then sealift, because it is faster.

OT

Maybe we can have a design contest to see who can develop the best assault 
units. This would use LBB 4 and GURPS Ground Forces



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 22:45:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 101 14:38:22 US/Central
Subject: [TML] You know you're an old Traveller when...
Message-ID: <200111052150.fA5Long20375@premier1.premier.net>


> >It then gets worse when they ask "When was this adventure written?", you
> check and 
> >reply 1981 to which they both respond "I wasn't even born then!"
> 
> My new secondary partner wasn't born when Traveller came out!  (Secondary
> partner: polyamory term for some you have a relationship with other than
> your primary.  Read your Heinlein.)
>

How about when you have characters "older" then some of the players in your 
group.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 00:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Fri May 31 23:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller: The Silly Era
In-Reply-To: <m3sn47ka6u.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020531154521.009f4060@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020531154521.009f4060@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <v04020a05b91e13254982@[192.168.1.5]>

>The Internet is the new Alexandria.  Libraries don't pare their
>collections for a lack of readers, and neither should web sites.

I like that atitude, and totally agree (though unfortunatly Libraries
regularly toss books).  My agreeing is why my Traveller site is still up,
even though I've not had time to mess with it in years.

		Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|          PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum.         |
|                http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/               |

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 00:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (allensh)
Date: Fri May 31 23:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller The Silly Era
Message-ID: <20020601064945.98868.qmail@web13906.mail.yahoo.com>

I would request that you keep the site up, as it is
the only place where the words to the Hiver Technical
Academy Fight Song are displayed and this is a
priceless piece of history. (never mind that I wrote
it; I'm not biased at all).

Allen

__________________________________________________
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http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 03:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Jun  1 02:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller: The Silly Era
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020531154521.009f4060@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <011c01c2094f$f56e2d20$f3e893c3@martinjd>

 
> b) Keep it!  It is a national treasure!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 07:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Jun  1 06:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
Message-ID: <F198b30Dt6vYvdZZZSJ00003ef7@hotmail.com>

From: Antti Heikkila <asheikki@pcu.helsinki.fi>

     "I'm new to this list, but I think you have missed one point: putting a 
metal liner to a shaped charge is credited to Henry Mohaupt, 1935.  Monroe, 
working 50 years before him, used linerless charges, which makes a big 
difference in armor penetration."


Mr. Heikkila,

     Welcome to the List, sir.
     Thank you for that important fact regarding liners.  It's the 
overlooked bits like the one you supplied that can make or break a project.  
IIRC, the liners are either copper or a copper alloy?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 07:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Jun  1 06:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
Message-ID: <F38n9rk4VcG557v3c4i00011891@hotmail.com>

From: Michael Cessna <graymask1120@yahoo.com>

     For the actual Armbrust RR:

http://www.jed.simonides.org/support/law/armbrust_series/armbrust-series.html

     Also, check out FM 31-210, Improvised Munitions Handbook for more info 
on 'stand cannons'.


Mr. Cessna,

      Thank you for the information and links, sir.  I found them very 
helpful.
      We are such an inventive and nasty species.  If we had only shown as 
much concern about distillation as we have with weapons, we'd all be 
swimming in booze (my personal vision of Eden).


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 07:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Jun  1 06:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
Message-ID: <F24ZUbPHiNKyKJWjewZ0001186f@hotmail.com>

From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

      I put up a graphic explaination of the armbrust at:

   http://weapons.travellercentral.com/heavy/armbrust_func.jpg


Mr. Glenn,

     Thank you for that fascinating diagram, sir.  You needn't worry about 
the "lack" of descriptive text, a picture in this case is worth far more 
than the usual thousand words.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 07:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Sat Jun  1 06:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
Message-ID: <F234GoggtxEx4H1euRR000040f9@hotmail.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>IIRC, the liners are either copper or a copper alloy?

Most are. The Germans used steel in the Panzerfaust during WW2 but that was 
less efficient. The shape of the warhead and the detonation distance are 
also very important variables. Much of this was not known back in the 40s 
but it certainly known by all weapon designer in the TU. I'd really like to 
see what is possible to do at TL0-8 when you have a TL16 understanding of 
science, 1000s of years to do it in and trillions of people to recruit 
engineers and scientists from. Radio, airplanes and automatic weapons at TL2 
anyone?

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 08:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Jun  1 07:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
Message-ID: <F62lLhltdR4lhrmevjm00011607@hotmail.com>

From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>

     "I'd really like to see what is possible to do at TL0-8 when you have a 
TL16 understanding of science, 1000s of years to do it in and trillions of 
people to recruit engineers and scientists from. Radio, airplanes and 
automatic weapons at TL2 anyone?"


Mr. Holmstrom,

     BINGO!  Give the man a cigar!
     That, sir, is my problem in a nutshell.  How far "down" the tech level 
ladder can you push certain items if the IDEA of them already exists?
     The ancients used batteries for electroplating and made wire for 
jewelry and armor.  Why wouldn't a telegraph system be up and operating at 
TTL 1 if the IDEA of the telegraph was already known?
     If you have 5 millenia of military history to draw upon, but only an 
American Civil War technology base, your armies will carry Spencer repeating 
carbines and not Springfield muzzleloaders.  Your artillery will have 
Gatlings and breechloading field pieces, not smoothbores.  Your navy will 
steam and fight in multi-turreted Monitors and not in sail driven, wooden 
hulled targets.
    The question now is what other devices could be used and made with 
1860's components?  Could radios have built?  Dirigibles?  Tanks?  That is 
my difficulty with my "Dirty Little War" project.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 09:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Jun  1 08:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
In-Reply-To: <F38n9rk4VcG557v3c4i00011891@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20601.085926.2C8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>       We are such an inventive and nasty species.  If we had only shown as 
> much concern about distillation as we have with weapons, we'd all be 
> swimming in booze (my personal vision of Eden).

Nah, swimming in booze gets the booze dirty, dries out your skin, and
*painfully* informs you of where every single scrape and cut on your
body is...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 10:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Jun  1 09:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller The Silly Era
In-Reply-To: <20020601064945.98868.qmail@web13906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020601084213.009fc6a0@mindspring.com>

At 11:49 PM 5/31/02 -0700, you wrote:
>I would request that you keep the site up, as it is
>the only place where the words to the Hiver Technical
>Academy Fight Song are displayed and this is a
>priceless piece of history. (never mind that I wrote
>it; I'm not biased at all).

Actually that moved to the filk site a while ago.

Then took it down completely.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 10:07:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Jun  1 09:07:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller: The Silly Era
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020531210051.0096d4f0@minn.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020531154521.009f4060@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020601085602.009ea8a0@mindspring.com>

At 09:00 PM 5/31/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Keep it and update it.
>
>Odd theories about the effect of penguins on human history and the practice
>of joke warfare during the interstellar wars would be nice. (Did any of the
>Vilani ever get Monty Python's undertaker sketch?)

I'll be looking forward to your submission then!

(Folks, I've become addicted to pay copy.  I'm really not going to spend a 
great deal of time  trying to write lame jokes for a site that is rarely 
read.  If it grows, it will be because of your input.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 11:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Jun  1 10:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
In-Reply-To: <F62lLhltdR4lhrmevjm00011607@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20601.090445.9y8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
>
>      "I'd really like to see what is possible to do at TL0-8 when you have a 
> TL16 understanding of science, 1000s of years to do it in and trillions of 
> people to recruit engineers and scientists from. Radio, airplanes and 
> automatic weapons at TL2 anyone?"
>
>
> Mr. Holmstrom,
>
>      BINGO!  Give the man a cigar!
>      That, sir, is my problem in a nutshell.  How far "down" the tech level 
> ladder can you push certain items if the IDEA of them already exists?
>      The ancients used batteries for electroplating and made wire for 
> jewelry and armor.  Why wouldn't a telegraph system be up and operating at 
> TTL 1 if the IDEA of the telegraph was already known?

Because their wire making techniques made *feet* of wire, slowly.
Telegrapghs require *miles* of it, produced quickly. 

Also, the wire is too *valuable* to leave lying out that way.

Build telescopes and set up a semaphore telegrapgh instead. That puts
the valuable resources where you can guard them.

>     The question now is what other devices could be used and made with 
> 1860's components?  Could radios have built?  Dirigibles?  Tanks?  That is 
> my difficulty with my "Dirty Little War" project.

Radios, yes. Spark gap, definitely. Alternator type (yes, they actually
had transmitters that used *huge* alternators running at the frequency
of transmission back before tubes!) probably. Tube types, maybe. 

Dirigibles would need engines with a pretty high power-to-weight ratio.

Tanks require the same, plus the ability to *cast* the hulls. I don't
see bolted together armor plates being able to survive a bazooka type
weapon built with several millenia of experience backing up the
"mid-low" TL maker.

BTW, "gunpowder" and explosives are going to be a lot more advanced in
your setup.

And just to give you nightmares, mustard gas was originally discovered
(and suppressed) around 1820. Phosgene isn't any harder to make. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 11:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Jun  1 10:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller: The Silly Era
Message-ID: <3CF8FEA4.22B1AD9D@mail.cswnet.com>

>What do you want to see done with the site?

My Vote:
>c) Cut it down to the best items and put them on one page.
>d) Try to farm the hosting out.

Note: "How to destroy your credibility as a Traveller player..." 
Should be required reading for newbies on the TML.

>f) Fnord.  >>I WAS mail the Penguin<< the secret Grand Jury testimony >along with my opinion.

"All your Penguin are belong to us."

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 12:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Jun  1 11:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
In-Reply-To: <20020529025504.02AD1279C3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206011955530.32118-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Glenn M. Goffin writes:
>The compromises of the Pacification Wars period -- and, to some extent,
>those of the Civil War and Arbellatran eras -- led to the crazy-quilt
>situation we see by the late 1000s.  Nobles may have derived from a wide
>variety of sources, but all have in common a drive to serve the best
>interests of the Emperor, the Imperium, and the nobles to whom they owe
>fealty.  Star systems in central regions of the Imperium tend to be
>controlled directly by Imperial nobles, while closer to the border, systems
>tend to have their own local governments, which may be ruled by commoners or
>local nobles.

You are talking about YTu, right? Because a lot of the above seems to
exceed the canonical information we have on the subject.

>Suppose a world has a local government and is also within the area of
>responsibility (but not within the fief) of a noble.  For example, the Duke
>of Regina is responsible for Regina and Jewell subsectors, but only rules
>Yori directly as a fief.

Imperial nobles do not rule the worlds they are nobles of. In some cases
(such as the Matriarch of Mora) a world ruler is also the Imperial noble
of said world, but the other way around is not given. It can't be, since
many Imperial nobles are nobles of worlds with governments that don't have
a single autocratic ruler.

Unfortunately the very limited number of Imperial nobles for specific
worlds that we have canonical writeups of all seem to rule their
respective worlds. However, I prefer to consider that a statistical
aberration :-).

(Incidentally, IMO Yori has a large enough population and a high enough
tech level that it ought to rate a marquis; I wonder if Norris' title as
Baron of Yori is a historically based one. Maybe he has little or nothing
to do with Yori and there is a Marquis of Yori that actually does whatever
it is Imperial nobles do for their worlds for Yori?)



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 12:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Jun  1 11:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers Aide/Type S Scout?
In-Reply-To: <3CF833DC.90AB42FB@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3CF8D2FE.8070.350488@localhost>

On 31 May 2002, at 21:39, Roseberry wrote:

> Another thought or two on the possible Trav Aide for the Type S.
> 
> I would like to see a couple of pages on the Suleiman and variants
> that would be like the Free Trader schematics inside the front cover
> of the Starship Operators Manual. Then we could go through it and slap
> on our own paint scheme and stuff. That would be neat.
> 

I like this idea a lot, maybe a study of the different systems and 
subsystems like the S.O.M does, but different enough not to break 
the copy right thing.  Have modifiers listed to repair systems native 
to the scout ship, such as the pesky air filters.  This would give the 
ship alive.

Another thing that can go into the supplements would be an 
adventure and or plot hooks dealing with scout ships.  Maybe a list 
of the famous NOC scouts past and present.  

> On history: a theory to be bounced around.
> 
> In the game Imperuim, the sillouhetes for the Vilani and Terrans do
> not look anything like the Sulieman Type S. But the Sulieman does show
> up in T4. So...the Sulieman must have initially been a Sylean
> Federation design...

I can only remember these vaguely, but I could buy that.  I mean 
1000 years of scout history would lead to many different versions of 
the designs.  Now whither we can based it off the game version 
campaign settings can be stretching things to some keepers of the 
Traveller Bible but its as good as theory as any. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 13:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Jun  1 12:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick canon question
Message-ID: <20020601.151901.-205843.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

(because I don't have my books with me at the moment...
grumblegrumble...)

What was the "official" stated purpose of Research Station Gamma (as
opposed to the real purpose of studying psionics)?


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 13:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Jun  1 12:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick canon question
In-Reply-To: <20020601.151901.-205843.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CF8DA9E.26027.52CEE1@localhost>

On 1 Jun 2002, at 15:18, knightsky@juno.com wrote:

> (because I don't have my books with me at the moment...
> grumblegrumble...)
> 
> What was the "official" stated purpose of Research Station Gamma (as
> opposed to the real purpose of studying psionics)?

To take over the Imperium oh what thats was research station 
Alpha Omega :)

> 
> 
>                                    - Perry
> 
> "I think it's time we blow this scene...
> Get everybody and their stuff together...
> Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bob Kondrk)
Date: Sat Jun  1 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick canon question
In-Reply-To: <3CF8DA9E.26027.52CEE1@localhost>
References: <3CF8DA9E.26027.52CEE1@localhost>
Message-ID: <1022963268.3cf92e4415c1f@mail.travellercentral.com>

Quoting timothyreynolds@earthlink.net:

> On 1 Jun 2002, at 15:18, knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> 
> > (because I don't have my books with me at the moment...
> > grumblegrumble...)
> > 
> > What was the "official" stated purpose of Research Station Gamma (as
> > opposed to the real purpose of studying psionics)?
> 

I just looked though Adventure 2, but it doesn't list an official stated 
purpose.  The station's existance is more or less public knowledge it seems, 
but it's purpose (either real or "cover story") appears to be unknown to the 
locals on Vanejen (Rhylanor/SM 0709).  There are rumors of the station being 
sighted in the southern seas of the planet, of someone making a delivery there, 
and of an Imperial Navy ship stopping at the station, but that's about it.

-- 
Bob K.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 17:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Jun  1 16:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
References: <20020601190109.5691A279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002801c209c7$e8349fe0$42b18b90@computer>

> From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen
> (Incidentally, IMO Yori has a large enough population and a high enough
> tech level that it ought to rate a marquis; I wonder if Norris' title as
> Baron of Yori is a historically based one. Maybe he has little or nothing
> to do with Yori and there is a Marquis of Yori that actually does whatever
> it is Imperial nobles do for their worlds for Yori?)

IMTU, what Imperial nobles "do for their worlds" is: nothing.  They may be
it's actual ruler, a ceremonial figurehead, a spiritual leader, elder
statesman, head of the local imperial bureaucracy, or any other kind of
prominent alcoholic, but that's _why_ they are nobles, not a consequence of
them being nobles.  Similarly, they act as advisors to the subsector duke
(and any local counts!), who are actual rulers, and, of course, serve as
emissaries and representatives for different layers of the imperial power
structure, including, sometimes, their homeworlds.  These are normal,
regular, expected roles, but the nobles who perform them are amateurs -
there are professional bureaucrats and professional diplomats out there too.
Of course, many of these are nobles too, and these would carry out most of
the "real" emissary work.  But even this is back to front, because a
diplomat who hangs around a ducal court is at serious risk of ending up with
at least a knighthood "for distinguished service" when they retire.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 17:53:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Jun  1 16:53:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
References: <20020601190109.5691A279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002b01c209c7$ebbd7880$42b18b90@computer>

> From: Leonard Erickson
> Build telescopes and set up a semaphore telegrapgh instead. That puts
> the valuable resources where you can guard them.

Yep. Too easy.

Geronimo's Apaches had an interesting, if limited, signalling system for
indicating the whereabouts of US troops.  It was basically just reflecting
sunlight off any handy chunk of metal.  Use obsidian instead, and you have a
TL 0 system.

> Tanks require the same, plus the ability to *cast* the hulls. I don't
> see bolted together armor plates being able to survive a bazooka type
> weapon built with several millenia of experience backing up the
> "mid-low" TL maker.

Let's see:  a traction engine with iron-clad style armour plate is easy
enough for TL 4, or even 3.  If you can build a _useful_ self-propelling
steam engine, you can stick armour on it, so you might even be able to go
earlier.

The effectiveness of the armour is a more serious question.  There's a few
too many unknowns to give a really convincing answer, but in the end I think
that you might be able to build a useful vehicle even if it _isn't_ bazooka
proof.  As long as it is _machinegun_ proof, or even machinegun resistant,
it is useful.  And if it can tow artillery and supplies, or carry infantry,
it would be a marvellously useful thing.

I suppose what I am saying is that even if you can't build tanks, you can
still build useful APCs.

Just consider the effect railways had on strategy, and then extend some of
that effect into the tactical sphere.  Hell, look at the Battle of the
Marne.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 18:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat Jun  1 17:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
In-Reply-To: <F234GoggtxEx4H1euRR000040f9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEGAEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>IIRC, the liners are either copper or a copper alloy?
>
>Most are. The Germans used steel in the Panzerfaust during WW2 but that was
>less efficient. The shape of the warhead and the detonation distance are
>also very important variables. Much of this was not known back in the 40s
>but it certainly known by all weapon designer in the TU. I'd really like to
>see what is possible to do at TL0-8 when you have a TL16 understanding of
>science, 1000s of years to do it in and trillions of people to recruit
>engineers and scientists from. Radio, airplanes and automatic weapons at
TL2
>anyone?
>
>Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>

Ah, my greatest pet peeve about the way tech levels are usually perceived in
Traveller. Except in the very rare cases where a religious group actively
suppresses knowledge (as for instance not letting members of a particular
gender learn to read,) any world with access to space will teach TL12
physics, chemistry, metallurgy, etc. to it's citizens. The inability to make
a TL12 device because the supporting structure is not in place doesn't mean
that a world with (G)TL5 civilization will use internal combustion engines
or vacuum tubes. If the parts that can't be made locally are small enough
and cheap enough they'll be imported with the big heavy parts made locally.

So you get your slightly underpowered air/raft with the imported contragrav
units and computer in a body made of teak wood with straw mats to sit on and
no windshield. Or your skin covered ATV with the imported (G)TL10 rE
powercell which is charged by a windmill using a hand wound generator,
propelled by a wooden drive train turned by a hand wound motor. Both the
motor and generator will use an ultra-high temperature superconductor which
we don't know how to make yet, but which can be easily fabricated using
local materials once you know the (G)TL9 technique.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 18:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat Jun  1 17:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
In-Reply-To: <20601.090445.9y8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEGBEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>your setup.
>
>And just to give you nightmares, mustard gas was originally discovered
>(and suppressed) around 1820. Phosgene isn't any harder to make.
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})

Even worse, biological weapons require only about the same level of
technology. If you can mass produce beer you can mass produce biological
weapons. Luckily, the Imperium should possess a high enough level of medical
technology to make biological weapons less effective. Hopefully, the great
plagues the occurred early in the Rule of Man will be enough of a deterrent
to prevent the use of such weapons. (Not to mention the Imperium's ban on
weapons of mass destruction.)

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat Jun  1 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206011955530.32118-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEGBEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Imperial nobles do not rule the worlds they are nobles of. In some cases
>(such as the Matriarch of Mora) a world ruler is also the Imperial noble
>of said world, but the other way around is not given. It can't be, since
>many Imperial nobles are nobles of worlds with governments that don't have
>a single autocratic ruler.
>
>Unfortunately the very limited number of Imperial nobles for specific
>worlds that we have canonical writeups of all seem to rule their
>respective worlds. However, I prefer to consider that a statistical
>aberration :-).
>
>(Incidentally, IMO Yori has a large enough population and a high enough
>tech level that it ought to rate a marquis; I wonder if Norris' title as
>Baron of Yori is a historically based one. Maybe he has little or nothing
>to do with Yori and there is a Marquis of Yori that actually does whatever
>it is Imperial nobles do for their worlds for Yori?)
>
>
I could swear that I saw something about Norris sponsoring a big project on
Yori, but I can't seem to find a source. Behind the Claw says that Yori is a
Feudal Technocracy, the typical way of saying that a world is directly
controlled by an Imperial Noble. I always assumed that was Archduke Norris.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 21:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Jun  1 20:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller: The Silly Era
In-Reply-To: <m3y9dzimfu.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3CF7F818.9344.24D48C6@localhost>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020531154521.009f4060@mindspring.com>
 <3CF7F818.9344.24D48C6@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020601215937.020b0eb0@192.168.0.1>

At 11:43 PM 5/31/2002 -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
[snip]
>I deliberately wrote `for a lack of readers.'  Shelf space is one
>thing, and analagous to a lack of disc space.  Fortunately, in this
>great world in which 100GB drives are approx. $0, space is not really
>a consideration.

Hmm...Could you let me know where to find a 100GB drive for $0?

I'd say keep it.  If space is a consideration, I'd be willing to host it.
travellercentral.com, off the Best of the TML page might be a better 
location though.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 22:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (allensh)
Date: Sat Jun  1 21:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller The Silly Era
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020601084213.009fc6a0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020602040930.85309.qmail@web13906.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> At 11:49 PM 5/31/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >I would request that you keep the site up, as it is
> >the only place where the words to the Hiver
> Technical
> >Academy Fight Song are displayed and this is a
> >priceless piece of history. (never mind that I
> wrote
> >it; I'm not biased at all).
> 
> Actually that moved to the filk site a while ago.
> 
> Then took it down completely.

Horrors!! Oh well, it was a hack job anyway <g>

Allen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  1 22:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Jun  1 21:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller: The Silly Era
In-Reply-To: <20020601155907.D15E8279C3@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020601155907.D15E8279C3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ca6jfu4thhd3r097a4j92sgah2a1en7imo@4ax.com>

On Sat, 01 Jun 2002 08:58:03 -0700, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
wrote:

>OK, inbetween bouts of writing, I've been cruising my sites looking for 
>places to improve them.  I've come to Traveller: The Silly Era.

>Every time I've mentioned taking it down before, people have howled in 
>protest.  But I'm facing facts.  It's old, I haven't had a new idea for it 
>in ages, and to be blunt, nobody has given me any.  It takes up room.

>So, I'm asking you:

>Go to http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/silytrav.html  and look 
>around.  Then answer this question

>What do you want to see done with the site?

>a) Close it. You're right, this was funny when T4 was out, but it's dated now.

>b) Keep it!  It is a national treasure!

>c) Cut it down to the best items and put them on one page.

>d) Try to farm the hosting out.

>e) Either b or c, but update the look!  Those little sun icons are a disgrace.

I know of at least two places where the material could be hosted at no cost
to you if you approach the right people.  One of them I can guarantee would
be willing to either keep the current look or integrate it into existing
non-Silly-Era material at the host; the other you'd have to ask, but I'm
fairly sure would be willing to preserve it as is.

Without looking at the material in question, I suggest you pursue 'D'.

Note that if you feel that there are Issues, my comments above would also
apply to non-Silly Traveller material as well.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  2 00:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark)
Date: Sat Jun  1 23:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick canon question
In-Reply-To: <1022963268.3cf92e4415c1f@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c209fe$2c4d93e0$2f7de40c@loki>

The official purpose of Research Station Gamma would be classified if
there was such a place whose existence would be classified also along
with its location were it to exist and of course it purpose would be
classified if there was such a place whose existence would be classifies
also along with its location...


I can neither confirm nor deny...


-peace-
The views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you
expect?
<n2sami@attbi.com>
<http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  2 07:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gary Miles)
Date: Sun Jun  2 06:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller: The Silly Era
Message-ID: <F129dTgPXN58ygBUqVO0000f001@hotmail.com>

Penguin Boy chirped:

(SNIP)

>Go to http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/silytrav.html  and look
>around.  Then answer this question
>
>What do you want to see done with the site?
>
>a) Close it. You're right, this was funny when T4 was out, but it's dated 
>now.
>
>b) Keep it!  It is a national treasure!
>
>c) Cut it down to the best items and put them on one page.
>
>d) Try to farm the hosting out.
>
>e) Either b or c, but update the look!  Those little sun icons are a 
>disgrace.
>
>f) Fnord.  I was mail the Penguin the secret Grand Jury testimony along
>with my opinion.

You must keep it: it is an Imperial Treasure, to be enshrined in the 
Imperial Museum on Capitol (in the basement, in the back corner, behind the 
penguin diorama)...

Gary
Remember: No Matter Where You Go, There You Are...88


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  2 10:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Jun  2 09:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
In-Reply-To: <20601.090445.9y8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B91F93CB.5D3D7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/1/02 10:04 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

> Tanks require the same, plus the ability to *cast* the hulls. I don't
> see bolted together armor plates being able to survive a bazooka type
> weapon built with several millenia of experience backing up the
> "mid-low" TL maker.

Spaced armor should do the trick.  Also note that modern composite armors
are not cast.  In fact, cast hulls are cheaper, but inferior to cold rolled
homogenous plate armor.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  2 11:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun  2 10:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sylean Wedge Fries
Message-ID: <3f.c54c597.2a2bb3fa@aol.com>

Dan Roseberry writes:

>In the game Imperuim, the sillouhetes for the Vilani and Terrans do not
>look anything like the Sulieman Type S. But the Sulieman does show up in
>T4. So...the Sulieman must have initially been a Sylean Federation
>design...
>
>I'll head for the bunker now and see what everyone thinks on this one.
>

It'll be a pretty quiet stay in that bunker, then, based on the thundering 
silence the last three times I've brought up this very same point (that the 
"flying wedge" is Sylean) over the last ten years...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  2 11:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun  2 10:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Era (but not really)
Message-ID: <108.129bd828.2a2bb45a@aol.com>

>In retrospect, `for a lack of readers' is not quite right.  More like
>throwing away a series because the author's not come up with anything
>new.
>

Ah, not a library, then. More like the current trend in book stores. sigh.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  2 12:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Jun  2 11:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sylean Wedge Fries
In-Reply-To: <3f.c54c597.2a2bb3fa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020602135909.00ce8ca8@192.168.0.1>

At 01:46 PM 6/2/2002 -0400, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>Dan Roseberry writes:
> >In the game Imperuim, the sillouhetes for the Vilani and Terrans do not
> >look anything like the Sulieman Type S. But the Sulieman does show up in
> >T4. So...the Sulieman must have initially been a Sylean Federation
> >design...
> >I'll head for the bunker now and see what everyone thinks on this one.
>It'll be a pretty quiet stay in that bunker, then, based on the thundering
>silence the last three times I've brought up this very same point (that the
>"flying wedge" is Sylean) over the last ten years...

Works for me.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sucessful Termanation of OPFOR Capabilities, re: Life Sustaining
Operations; Originating from a Departure Line Orientated to the Vertical
of the Main Battle Area."  --  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  2 14:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun Jun  2 13:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
In-Reply-To: <20020602190105.44335279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206022159120.16692-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Terry Carlino writes:

>I could swear that I saw something about Norris sponsoring a big project on
>Yori, but I can't seem to find a source.

I don't remember seeing anything like that.

>Behind the Claw says that Yori is a Feudal Technocracy, the typical way
>of saying that a world is directly controlled by an Imperial Noble.

Where does it say that?



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  2 15:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Jun  2 14:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
In-Reply-To: <B91F93CB.5D3D7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEGDEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

> Tanks require the same, plus the ability to *cast* the hulls. I don't
> see bolted together armor plates being able to survive a bazooka type
> weapon built with several millenia of experience backing up the
> "mid-low" TL maker.

 I believe that the early 20th century U.S. battleships used laminated
armor, because American factories could not produce armor plate of the
necessary thickness. I can't recall if the plate was tack welded or riveted,
but it was said to be adequate.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  2 15:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Jun  2 14:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206022159120.16692-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEGDEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>Behind the Claw says that Yori is a Feudal Technocracy, the typical way
>>of saying that a world is directly controlled by an Imperial Noble.
>
>Where does it say that?
>
Where does it say what? That Yori is a Feudal Technocracy or that Feudal
Technocracies are directly controlled by an Imperial Noble?




Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  2 17:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Jun  2 16:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sylean Wedge Fries
Message-ID: <3CFAA809.6F0AEFDE@mail.cswnet.com>

GC writes:
>It'll be a pretty quiet stay in that bunker, then, based on the thundering 
>silence the last three times I've brought up this very same point (that >the "flying wedge" is Sylean) over the last ten years...

Oh. Done missed those posts. 

Ok, how about this one:
The initial Type S air conditioner came from a world with dense
atmosphere, high hydrosphere, and below average tech 6-8. In other
words...

Its the Swamp Cooler from hell.

Back to the bunker...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
Sylean Wedge Fries? Does that go with the Vreiburger?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  2 18:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Jun  2 17:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
In-Reply-To: <B91F93CB.5D3D7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20602.162146.9e9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 6/1/02 10:04 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>> Tanks require the same, plus the ability to *cast* the hulls. I don't
>> see bolted together armor plates being able to survive a bazooka type
>> weapon built with several millenia of experience backing up the
>> "mid-low" TL maker.
>
> Spaced armor should do the trick.  Also note that modern composite armors
> are not cast.  In fact, cast hulls are cheaper, but inferior to cold rolled
> homogenous plate armor.

Ok, I wasn't up on the tech, but I knew that the early "bolted on"
armor wasn't going to work very well. 

Cold rolled armor is a bit beyond ACW level tech, though.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  2 18:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Sun Jun  2 17:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
Message-ID: <F674AZs7db4Tj2RA2Xy00016210@hotmail.com>

>"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
>
>>"I'd really like to see what is possible to do at TL0-8 when you have a 
>>TL16 understanding of science, 1000s of years to do it in and trillions of 
>>people to recruit engineers and scientists from. Radio, airplanes and 
>>automatic weapons at TL2 anyone?"

>Give the man a cigar!

<whine>But I don't smoke.</whine>

Other people have already chimed in but here is the result of some random 
brain cells firing.

>That, sir, is my problem in a nutshell.  How far "down" the tech level 
>ladder can you push certain items if the IDEA of them already exists?

>The question now is what other devices could be used and made with 1860's 
>components?  Could radios have built?  Dirigibles?  Tanks? That is my 
>difficulty with my "Dirty Little War" project.

That is a NP-hard question <g>. To further complicate things (one of my 
character faults) there is the question if production of these goods can 
meet reasonable cost, reliability, quality and quantity parameters. I can 
see why one could tolerate high costs for fast communication (early 
radio/semaphore/etc) and even limited fast transport (early 
trains/steamboats) for strategic reasons but for other things there is the 
problem of marshalling of scarce recourses and skills (like the "should we 
make armour piercing ammo or machine tools with this tungsten" problem faced 
by the Germans in WW2).

The high tech items will surely be more expensive and often by a large 
margin. Whether a device is useful will depend on the cost in absolute 
terms, the numbers required, the relative size of the economies and 
doctrine. The Eurofighter has been described as 90% of a F-22 at half the 
cost (and that was before the F-22 cost increase) and similarly a M-16 cost 
IIRC over 5 times more than an AK47. Whether a performance edge or 
capability makes sense might vary a lot between countries.

Small cadres of specially trained and equipped troops (say Zeppelin 
Parachute SpecOPs/Spies for a extreme example) and tanks should be useful on 
the battlefield for larger nations if they are possible to produce. Things 
that improve the strategic picture like recon blimps, advanced ships and 
subs should also be in this category.

Then there is the question of imports and outside assistance. A government 
should be able to offer a Trader crew (PCs) something (cach, future trade 
arrangements) to stay in orbit and provide orbital surveillance during 
critical battles (imagine if a Free Trader had kept an eye on the Japanese 
fleet in December 1941). A war could be lost because one side could not 
promise enough shipments of fine wines, furs or similar. :)

Some very useful high tech items can be rather cheaply produced and thus 
bought in quantities that allow sufficient replacements for battle losses 
and breakdowns. Rangefinders, radios, NV goggles, fire control, computers, 
"spy equipment" (e.g. bugs) and security systems should be in this category. 
Again this would be in small quantities used for intelligence operations and 
important assets.

Is there anywhere I can more information on this "Dirty Little War"? It 
certainly is interesting.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  2 19:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Jun  2 18:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hole in the Fence.
Message-ID: <200206030058.HPU02643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leslie Bates asks
>I just saw THE SUM OF ALL FEARS, in one scene the character 
>of John Clark sprays something on a chain link fence and 
>then he tears a man sized hole in the fence.
>
<snip liquid nitrogen>

I've used liquid nitrogen to break locks.  There are very few 
common padlocks that can resist it.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  2 19:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Jun  2 18:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
Message-ID: <F133XItgiOM0aEv4fYT00002915@hotmail.com>

From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>

     "IMTU, what Imperial nobles "do for their worlds" is: nothing.  They 
may be it's actual ruler, a ceremonial figurehead, a spiritual leader, elder 
statesman, head of the local imperial bureaucracy, or any other kind of 
prominent alcoholic, but that's _why_ they are nobles, not a consequence of 
them being nobles."


Mr. Bradley,

     That's a bit like it is in the Whipsnadian Traveller Universe too.
     I tried to balance the competing ideas of "planet-bound", i.e. marquis 
and below, Imperial nobles and the Imperial policy of local, planetary 
sovereignty.  If the Imperium lets planets mostly rule themselves, what ever 
do the lesser imperial nobles do?  IMTU, these lesser nobles are mainly 
"mine shaft canaries"; they (hopefully) keep the Imperium's finger on the 
pulse of their respective worlds.  (Yes, I know about multiple patents, 
dukes who are also Baron This and Baron That, this doesn't really apply to 
them.)
     In the Whipsnadian TU, Imperial governance doens't really make itself 
present until you reach the county, i.e. multiple world, level.  The counts 
and dukes are busy with the day to day ruling of Imperial assets.  They will 
be overseeing the various bureaus, armies, fleets, and the other tangible 
portions of Imperial property and might.  That's a big job, they'll have 
staffs to help them.  They'll also groom clients among the lesser nobility 
to act as "eyes and ears" or "hachetmen" for them.  I stole the 
patron-client idea from Rome.
     IMTU there are two ways to get a patent as a marquis or baron; it 
either comes with your birth or it comes thanks to your job.  The former can 
be passed to your heirs and the latter cannot.  Thus the heir to the Dukedom 
of Moronika is styled Baron Shemp.  When he accedes to the dukedom, his heir 
becomes Baron Shemp.  In other cases, the family only has the Baron Shemp 
patent to pass along, so the heir is styled Sir So-And-So.  What these two 
heirs do while waiting for Pater to slip on the soap can be quite 
interesting.  What their noninheriting siblings; noble family but usually no 
title of their own, will be even more interesting.  This gives me plenty of 
"justification" for those shady nobles in OTU canon.
     "Job" and/or "honor" patents are different.  You put in 40 excellent 
years in the Imperial subsector SPA bureaucracy and you might get a barony 
along with your gold watch at retirement.  Or you've been promoted to a 
certain position and, to mix with your peers at that level, you now need a 
title.  Or you're a successful military, scientific, academic, whatever 
personage and you're being rewarded.  However you came by it, your heirs are 
not going to inherit your patent.
     Most folks with "honor" or "job" patents are going to connive, finagle, 
scheme, plot, bribe, blackmail, and whine to get their patents changed into 
the real kind.  This allows me to "justify" all those Imperial nobles in 
canon who get involved in shadier activities.
     Mine-shaft canary peers, those nobles with planet-bound fiefs on worlds 
where they have no real job, or are going to do the same sort of things 
their honor noble counterparts do, thus giving me the same justification.  
Noble heirs and, to a greater extent, noble offspring, will be doing the 
same thing.
     Lesser nobles in client-patron relationships with counts and dukes will 
be handling all sorts of shady activities too as a result of their patrons' 
wishes.  One again, the behavior of some canon nobles is "justified".

     "Similarly, they act as advisors to the subsector duke (and any local 
counts!), who are actual rulers, and, of course, serve as
emissaries and representatives for different layers of the imperial power 
structure, including, sometimes, their homeworlds."

     True.  Not every marquis and baron IMTU is a underemployed schemer or a 
forgotten man rusticating away on his 10 km^2 fiefdom, some (the better 
sort) have actual jobs.  They're serving in the armed forces, running 
companies, holding positions in the Imperial bureaucracies, and so on.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  2 21:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Jun  2 20:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Dirty Little War (was: Recoilless Rifles)
Message-ID: <F692bMfhiVCngokVNTm0000d3aa@hotmail.com>

From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>

     "Other people have already chimed in but here is the result of some 
random brain cells firing."  (snip of excellent observations)

     "Is there anywhere I can more information on this "Dirty Little War"?  
It certainly is interesting."


Mr. Holmstrom,

     Alas, the "Dirty Little War" project is little more than a melange of 
paper files, scribbled on cocktail napkins, rough equipment designs, awkward 
spread sheets, and even more poorly drawn maps.  It exists no where except 
within the dank recesses of the Whipsnadian mind and CPU.
     Looking back over my oldest notes, DLW oozed into being thanks to 
several factors:
     A) A quote on the TML that "Primitive doesn't equal stupid".
     B) A discussion of First World interference in the Iran-Iraq War.
     C) A request for authors to pitch ideas for "Small Wars" sourcebooks by 
SJ Games as part of their Traveller line.
     D) and finally, my joining a miniatures gaming group and playing 
several rounds with Command Decision's WW1 rules.

     The premise and backstory of DLW can be summed up in a few paragraphs.
     I proposed a low-tech (~1900 era), high-pop, balkanized world outside 
of the Imperium with with two First Rank nations and lots of Second and 
Third Rank nations.  The two world powers dislike each other and the 
Imperium with equal fervor.  The world is in a somewhat strategic area for 
the Imperium, so INI decides to do something about the anti-Imperial 
nations.
     The IISS is already involved on planet.  The two world powers had been 
"annexing" lesser nations as a prelude to their coming showdown, so some of 
the remaining smaller nations accepted Imperial Client State status as a way 
to avoid being swallowed.  The two powers have stopped their conquests 
because of this and now have even more reason to loathe the Imperium.
     The IISS has been trying to lessen tensions through diplomatic and 
trade methods with little progress to show for their efforts.  As tensions 
continue to escalate, the client nations ask for and get interdicted status 
for the planet.  The IISS will (supposedly) check all shipping to the world 
for hi-tech military equipment and/or industrial components in an attempt to 
forestall the technological progress of the two world powers.
     INI, without informing IISS, starts stirring things up.  Border 
incidents, black propaganda, all sorts of diry tricks are launched against 
either power in an attempt to drive them to war.  Once the war kicks off, 
INI will try to PROLONG it as far as possible, with the hopes that each 
combatant will collapse (think Czarist Russia or the Hapsburgs).  Of course, 
the IISS will be trying to prevent the war and stop it once it begins.
     The IISS interdiction will actually help INI with prolonging the 
conflict.  No large, high-tech, off-world merc groups will be able to sign 
on for the conflict.  There will be no Hammer's Slammers winning the war for 
one side or another.  Instead, INI will able to sneak small, light infantry 
formations (company or smaller) through the interdiction.  Small and "light" 
yes, but also high-tech.  These groups will not WIN the war for their 
employers, instead they will prevent their employers from LOSING.  Keep the 
war going and the combatants should fall apart, that's INI's hope.
     The mercs will be used to keep things balanced, i.e. stall or stop an 
enemy offensive, counter certain enemy capabilities, operate in extreme 
enviroments, etc.  If everything goes well, the GM should have YEARS of merc 
tickets for his group to operate in.
     All this nonsense should allow me to present a setting in which:

     A) Years of small unit merc tickets of a variety of types.
     B) Plenty of miniature scenarios.
     C) Tons of smuggling adventures for merchant campaigns.
     D) Dirty tricks/black ops adventures for special ops campaigns.
     E) Lots, lots, and LOTS of espionage stuff.
     F) High powered adventures for those type of campaigns.  Will the IISS 
figure out INI's plot?  What will/can they do if they do find out?  What 
will the Imperium do?  What will the political fallout be?
     G) A decade-plus timeline of the setting so GMs can bring their group 
back time and time again and be able to plug in their own adventures easily.

     Once I've got it all done, the materials will include maps, NPCs, a 
VERY detailed Land Grab, a history of the pre-war, war, and post-war 
periods, goofy low-tech homebrewed equipment, a few adventure seeds, and 
lots of other stuff.  Hopefully, the whole steaming pile will find a home on 
the 'Net someplace as I do not want to pitch it to any publishers.
     Hope that answers your questions.  Please do not hold your breath for 
this one, I'm working on it in spasms.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  2 23:38:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew W. Helton)
Date: Sun Jun  2 22:38:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Dirty Little War (was: Recoilless Rifles)
In-Reply-To: <F692bMfhiVCngokVNTm0000d3aa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c20ac0$c0a56aa0$0300a8c0@acheronlv426>

Based on that last post, I'm fairly certain that Larsen wrote The
Conspiracy Theory.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 00:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antti Heikkila)
Date: Sun Jun  2 23:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
In-Reply-To: <F198b30Dt6vYvdZZZSJ00003ef7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.30.0206030903320.3531-100000@tekno.helsinki.fi>

On Sat, 1 Jun 2002, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> From: Antti Heikkila <asheikki@pcu.helsinki.fi>
>
>      "I'm new to this list, but I think you have missed one point: puttin=
g a
> metal liner to a shaped charge is credited to Henry Mohaupt, 1935.  Monro=
e,
> working 50 years before him, used linerless charges, which makes a big
> difference in armor penetration."
>
>
> Mr. Heikkila,
>
>      Welcome to the List, sir.
>      Thank you for that important fact regarding liners.  It's the
> overlooked bits like the one you supplied that can make or break a projec=
t.
> IIRC, the liners are either copper or a copper alloy?

Mostly copper now. IIRC there have been tests with depleted uranium and
other, more exotic materials such as tantalum. DU appears to perform well
and is relatively cheap (but it's dirty - bad PR) but tantalum is
probably not worth the money. Steel and even glass can be used, but the
performance will not be as good. In fact, steel lined shaped charges are
still used for blasting foxholes in permafrost by the army, and in similar
civilian applications too.

Early experiments might use steel, as the germans did in wwii. Then they
might also disregard the correct stand-off distance and the deletorious
effect of spin (rifled barrels). All of these would cause significantly
less performance than modern HEAT warheas.

=09Antti


--
 Antti Heikkil=E4
 www.helsinki.fi/people/Antti.Heikkila

The world has achieved brilliance without conscience...
Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.
=09- Omar Nelson Bradley


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 00:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sun Jun  2 23:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
In-Reply-To: <20602.162146.9e9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEMHHIAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 5:22 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles


In mail you write:

> on 6/1/02 10:04 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>> Tanks require the same, plus the ability to *cast* the hulls. I don't
>> see bolted together armor plates being able to survive a bazooka type
>> weapon built with several millenia of experience backing up the
>> "mid-low" TL maker.
>
> Spaced armor should do the trick.  Also note that modern composite armors
> are not cast.  In fact, cast hulls are cheaper, but inferior to cold
rolled
> homogenous plate armor.

Ok, I wasn't up on the tech, but I knew that the early "bolted on"
armor wasn't going to work very well.

Cold rolled armor is a bit beyond ACW level tech, though.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't railroad rails made by rolled steel by
the civil war?  I know that by the end on the 1860's they were.

Besides. play with the geometry of the facing surfaces and you could
probably get away with a lot thinner/worse steel

jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 00:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Jun  2 23:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206022159120.16692-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206022159120.16692-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <m3wutgc0tj.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> 
> >Behind the Claw says that Yori is a Feudal Technocracy, the typical
> >way of saying that a world is directly controlled by an Imperial
> >Noble.
> 
> Where does it say that?

On pg. 82 of GT:BtC, `Yori...Government: Technocracy (seat of the
baron of Yori, another of Archduke Norris' titles).'  Which certainly
implies that he's the ruler.  OTOH, GT:FI states on pg. 93 that
technocracy is rule by technical experts with noble titles.  These are
not nec. mutually exclusive: it very well could be that the nobles are
the ones who receive the advanced schooling.  In fact, this makes a
lot sense.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Voskrese iz mertvych
Smertiju smert' poprav
I suscim vo hrobich zi
Vot darovav!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 01:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Jun  3 00:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
In-Reply-To: <F133XItgiOM0aEv4fYT00002915@hotmail.com>
References: <F133XItgiOM0aEv4fYT00002915@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3sn44c05v.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> Or you're a successful military, scientific, academic, whatever
> personage and you're being rewarded.  However you came by it, your
> heirs are not going to inherit your patent.

How's this for a variation: one's children receive the next lower
title (and their children the next lower title); only blood titles
pass on to a heir intact.  Thus Baron Maelgwyn passes the title of
baron on to his eldest son while the rest of his brood must content
themselves with Bart., their children with Sir/Dame and their children
with nothing at all (unless otherwise elevated, of course).

Meanwhile, High Chief Muckety-Muck Guuruishiflick receives the title
of duke for his achievements as director of the Imperial Bureau of
Stuff, and so he can deal with sector dukes as an equal.  His kids are
then counts, their kids marquises, their kids barons, theirs baronets,
theirs knights and theirs with nothing at all.  Since it's all honour
titles, no-one after Guuruishiflick will be a duke (unless an
individual should distinguish himself).

My rationale is that when people have worked their way to a position
of prestige their children share in that; a society like the Imperium
is likely, I think, to codify such a thing.  The idea also is that the
vast number of minor honour nobles serve as a kind of gentry, a buffer
between blood nobility and the hoi polloi, but also as a respectable
source of new blood, and as possible candidates for vacant fiefs.  But
it also means that eventually a noble line will send blood back into
the ranks of the commoners.  This is no bad thing either.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Ha Mashiyach qam!  Ken hu qam!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 03:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antti Heikkila)
Date: Mon Jun  3 02:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
In-Reply-To: <002101c208e5$767fb890$c300a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.30.0206031220510.14728-100000@tekno.helsinki.fi>

On Fri, 31 May 2002, Matthew Bond wrote:

>
> > Thanks, Tod.  I still haven't quite gotten my mind around the concept. =
 I
> > guess the compressed rubber bands sort of push the warhead out the fron=
t
> and
> > themselves out the back.
> >
> > --Glenn
>
> I think that it is still explosively powered... There is a charge between
> the warhead and the countermass. Firing the weapon sets off the charge,
> which propells both the warhead and countermass out of the respective end=
s
> of the weapon, with equal momentum thus no recoil. The warhead flies on i=
ts
> merry way to the target, the countermass, in this case thin plastic strip=
s,
> is ejected to the rear causing a danger space behind. As this particular
> weapon uses thin plastic strips as countermass, these will be rapidly
> decellerated by the atmosphere and tumble to the ground. Their energy is
> absorbed by a relatively large mass of atmosphere, thus the dangerspace i=
s
> very small in comparison to other possible countermasses (such as hot
> gasses...)

There is also another subtle invention in the Armbrust. The propellant is
separated from the grenade and the reaction mass with pistons at the
front and at the rear. The front piston throws the grenade out and the
rear piston expels the reaction mass (and the gases from the propellant
trough valves). No flash and somewhat reduced noise, which is a nice
touch. Some form of solid reaction mass can be found in very many modern
recoilless weapons, but the piston design makes the Armbrust special.


--
 Antti Heikkil=E4
 www.helsinki.fi/people/Antti.Heikkila

The world has achieved brilliance without conscience...
Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.
=09- Omar Nelson Bradley


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 04:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Jun  3 03:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Call for Submissions
Message-ID: <001b01c20ae9$c21048a0$69d693c3@martinjd>

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Okay folks; Traveller's Aide #2 is due out in a few days. #3 is in final =
preparation.=20

We need submissions to keep the product line moving. Especially, =
adventures of the self-contained LBB type.=20

Such adventures will contain CT and T20 stats - but don't worry about =
the latter. We can get T20 stats created in-house if necessary).=20


Contact me offlist at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk for more details.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 10:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Jun  3 09:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
Message-ID: <F232V2kER6BNGBmnXLW000057f6@hotmail.com>

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "How's this for a variation: one's children receive the next lower
title (and their children the next lower title); only blood titles
pass on to a heir intact."


Mr. Uhl,

     A fine suggestion; it still eventually weeds out the descendents of 
honor nobles while still giving us a justification for all those do nothing 
nobles in canon.
     The whole point of this exercise is to find some plausible explanation 
for those wastrel nobles that infest canon.  As Mr. Rancke-Madsen points 
out, how can they have an Imperial title, yet have no real job to do?  
Whether the title expires after one generation or erodes in stages doesn't 
matter, it still provides GMs with a supply of Imperial nobles without 
Imperial duties.

     "Thus Baron Maelgwyn passes the title of baron on to his eldest son 
while the rest of his brood must content themselves with Bart., their 
children with Sir/Dame and their children with nothing at all (unless 
otherwise elevated, of course)."

     IMTU, this is how "real" patents work.  A real world example would be 
Winston Churchill.  He was the grandson, nephew, and cousin of a duke, yet 
his father was merely a lord and he was simply a gentleman.
     Whether the title is passed to first born (Solomani) or third born 
(Vilani) or most deserving (blood politics), the result is the same; no net 
increase in the number of nobles through birthrates.  IIRC, the Russian 
system had all descendents of a noble sharing in their title, thus all 
descendents of a duke were a duke also.  This method could provide the "all 
title-no job" nobles needed in canon.

     "My rationale is that when people have worked their way to a position 
of prestige their children share in that; a society like the Imperium is 
likely, I think, to codify such a thing."

     That is my feeling too, I just had them accomplish it in two steps 
rather than one.  First, get your honor patent, then get it converted into a 
blood patent.  In this way, patents could be tied to certain jobs and 
positions within the Imperial system without providing a surplus of "no 
duties" nobles.
     In the two step method, honor nobles will still be striving, scheming 
types involved in all sorts of shadier activities that they are trying to 
keep covered up; just like all those noble patrons in canon.
     A society with a Roman patron/client relationship will also provide 
this.  Why is Baron Shemp involved in fixing the bets on the illegal cat 
juggling league on Grote rather than attending to usual Imperial baronial 
stuff?  Because he is furthering the interests of Marquis Larry, who is too 
busy to attend to that job himself as he has all that Marquis stuff to do.  
Indeed, Marquis Larry may have simply passed along the job from Count Curly 
or Duke Moe!
     One of the problems with the 2D6 social stat has been the surplus of 
nobles thus generated.  Supposedly, 2 out of every 12 people in the OTU is a 
baron or better.  That's a lot of chiefs for not too many indians.  Mr. 
Rancke-Madsen has called for a less coarse SOC generator, quite rightly 
IMHO.  While GMing, I side stepped the problem with the idea of "reprocity".
     In the Whipsnadian Traveller Universe, there are Imperial nobles, honor 
nobles, and local nobles.  The amount of power held and exercised by these 
nobles, from an Imperial point of view, descends in the way I listed them; 
lots for Impies, some for honors, very little for locals.  But, regardless 
of their actual power, an Imperial will make damn sure a local duke is 
treated with the same respect by the commons afforded to an Imperial duke.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 11:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Jun  3 10:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
Message-ID: <memo.951528@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <F232V2kER6BNGBmnXLW000057f6@hotmail.com>
Greetings dear hearts.

This hangs in fairly well with the way things work here in the UK, where 
we still have a nobility of sorts.

A title is inherited by the eldest son. His siblings are known as Lord or 
Lady, or The Honourable, depending on the level of the title; and this is 
not inherited by their children.

I can go on and on about this, but won't unless someone is interested.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 11:14:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark)
Date: Mon Jun  3 10:14:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
In-Reply-To: <F232V2kER6BNGBmnXLW000057f6@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001101c20b21$efe0ab20$2f7de40c@loki>

While reading the illustrious wastrel his Lordship L.E. Whipsnade's
answer to the erudite suggestion of Sir R. Uhl, I fixated on this
statement by the later: "...a society like the Imperium is likely, I
think, to codify such a thing."

Egad sir! Must I take up my lance and tilt against this windmill again?
I think it unlikely the Imperium will codifying anything it can possibly
avoid codifying. 

We have had centuries, perhaps millennia, for our social and political
norms to have fallen into place. We need not codify such things. The
Imperium is not under the rule of law but the rule of men. Those men are
the nobility. Their judgment is and must be, in the most part,
respected. They need no Universal Imperial Code to tie their hands. It
would be a disservice to them who stand now at the marches of this great
Imperium exercising the powers of nobility in defense of those marches
to bind them so. They are tied to us today by the norms we ourselves
learned from our fathers and them from theirs and our fathers from their
fathers. If it were not for that judgment inherent in the rule of men,
in our brothers and sisters whom we must trust, this Imperium would not
still stand. We might look more like the splintered Solomani States or
even the utter chaos of the Vargr Extents. Where our brothers go awry in
their exercise of judgment we will deal with them as we have always
done. We do not need a lawyer with a political axe to grind to dust off
some volume of mind robbing Universal Imperial Code and with it attack
the just but unexpected action of someone entrusted with security and
prosperity of our great Imperium. Shall we trust that lawyer on some
fringe with a book of law whose allegiances are unknown more than we
trust our sister raised or elevated in service of the whole Imperium?

Speak no more of codifying anything we need not!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 11:34:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Jun  3 10:34:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
Message-ID: <memo.952007@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <001101c20b21$efe0ab20$2f7de40c@loki>
Greetings dear hearts.

>Speak no more of codifying anything we need not!

I disagree. If perhaps the greatest rulers in the troubled history of 
Earth, the Pharaohs, ruled always according to the Law of Ma'at, I see no 
reason why the lesser breeds that presume to rule the Imperium should not 
also serve and interpret a code that puts the citizens and the land first 
and foremost, and those who govern as their servants.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 12:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  3 11:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whipsnade's war and the other T
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMENNHIAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I refer of course to 'technique' as opposed to technology.  War being
Humaniti's favorite outdoor sport and the 3I having been around for a while,
it appears to me that most tactics have been tried -- and written up -- at
one time or another.

The nice man from InterStellarms will sell you a data solid or hard copy of
the 'Big Book of Field Manuals, annotated'.  In addition to details on how
to field strip the Toastmaster 5000 FPMP. this handy compendium has details
on how to conduct anti Armour ambush using IFV's and dismounts (45 of 'em,
all commented on and reviewed by experts in the field), as well as how to
assault a trench line when the other side has emplaced heavy machine guns --
hint, the line up your troops and march across the intervening space and try
to baronet them out technique is a tad expensive in manpower losses.

High tech is a Mercenary's greatest weapon.  That and that he is a lot more
likely to have read and trained using the BBoFMa.

_____________
my other computer runs BSD
and another, Mac OS 9, and
another NT, and .....
you get the idea

jml
jmlotzn1@pacbell.net
_________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 12:25:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Mon Jun  3 11:25:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Whipsnade's war and the other T
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMENNHIAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0206031122480.15008-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, John-Martin wrote:

> The nice man from InterStellarms will sell you a data solid or hard copy of
> the 'Big Book of Field Manuals, annotated'.  In addition to details on how
> to field strip the Toastmaster 5000 FPMP. this handy compendium has details
> on how to conduct anti Armour ambush using IFV's and dismounts (45 of 'em,
> all commented on and reviewed by experts in the field), as well as how to
> assault a trench line when the other side has emplaced heavy machine guns --
> hint, the line up your troops and march across the intervening space and try
> to baronet them out technique is a tad expensive in manpower losses.
     ^^^^^^^

... a nice tie-in to the nobility thread. <g>


Rob D.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 12:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Jun  3 11:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
In-Reply-To: <F232V2kER6BNGBmnXLW000057f6@hotmail.com>
References: <F232V2kER6BNGBmnXLW000057f6@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3r8joyzu6.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> IIRC, the Russian system had all descendents of a noble sharing in
> their title, thus all descendents of a duke were a duke also.  This
> method could provide the "all title-no job" nobles needed in canon.

The problem with this system is that you pretty quickly have to come
up with a way to kill of nobles--it creates huge numbers of them, with
no weed-out effect.  Eventually everyone's a noble.  Or, perh. more
accurately, every noble's a duke, and the commoners are _really_
low-class.  The nobles might marry within their class, gradually
increasing the status of them all (the child of a duke & a countess
being a duke), and have so many children that you get middle-class and
even low-class nobility, who still carry their titles.  Only the real
dregs of society would lack noble titles, their ancestors never having
managed to catch the eye of some passing lord.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Crist aras!  Crist solice aras!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 12:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Jun  3 11:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
In-Reply-To: <001101c20b21$efe0ab20$2f7de40c@loki>
References: <001101c20b21$efe0ab20$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <m3n0ucyzpb.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Mark" <n2sami@attbi.com> writes:
> 
> Egad sir! Must I take up my lance and tilt against this windmill
> again?  I think it unlikely the Imperium will codifying anything it
> can possibly avoid codifying.

I thought of this as I wrote it.  The problem is that the definition
of a noble is vitally important to the Imperium.  The Imperium is
ruled by men, not laws, but it must have some law to figure out who
those men are.

Also, this is a very simple law--not the sort which can be twisted
around.  In fact, it barely deserves the name `law'--custom would be
more accurate.  Custom which might happen to be codified.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Voskrese!  Voistinu Voskrese!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 13:13:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  3 12:13:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Whipsnade's war and the other T
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0206031122480.15008-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEOAHIAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>



On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, John-Martin wrote:

> The nice man from InterStellarms will sell you a data solid or hard copy
of
> the 'Big Book of Field Manuals, annotated'.  In addition to details on how
> to field strip the Toastmaster 5000 FPMP. this handy compendium has
details
> on how to conduct anti Armour ambush using IFV's and dismounts (45 of 'em,
> all commented on and reviewed by experts in the field), as well as how to
> assault a trench line when the other side has emplaced heavy machine
guns --
> hint, the line up your troops and march across the intervening space and
try
> to baronet them out technique is a tad expensive in manpower losses.
     ^^^^^^^

... a nice tie-in to the nobility thread. <g>


Rob D.


Yep,

On the planet Fred, there is a strict code Duello,  a person cannot advance
into he nobility without having served in the military, and there is an
unwritten code emphasizing individual combat between leaders.

There they really mean it when they say "Put up your Dukes."  ^-^;;

jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 14:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Jun  3 13:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEANCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>Glenn M. Goffin writes:
>>The compromises of the Pacification Wars period -- and, to some extent,
>>those of the Civil War and Arbellatran eras -- led to the crazy-quilt
>>situation we see by the late 1000s.  Nobles may have derived from a wide
>
>You are talking about YTu, right? Because a lot of the above seems to
>exceed the canonical information we have on the subject.

Yes, my discussion exceeds the canonical information, but it does not
contradict it, and I believe it to be a reasonable extrapolation.  If I did
not make that clear in my original post, I should have.

>Imperial nobles do not rule the worlds they are nobles of.

I don't think that's true, but I haven't looked it up, either.  (It's not
true in my Traveller universe.)

>In some cases
>(such as the Matriarch of Mora) a world ruler is also the Imperial noble
>of said world, but the other way around is not given. It can't be, since
>many Imperial nobles are nobles of worlds with governments that don't have
>a single autocratic ruler.

It can't _always_ be true that the Imperial noble is also the world ruler --
but it can sometimes be true.  The Imperium is old and complex.  It does not
have to be consistent in every place and every time.

>Unfortunately the very limited number of Imperial nobles for specific
>worlds that we have canonical writeups of all seem to rule their
>respective worlds. However, I prefer to consider that a statistical
>aberration :-).

I tend to agree with your statistical position.

>(Incidentally, IMO Yori has a large enough population and a high enough
>tech level that it ought to rate a marquis; I wonder if Norris' title as
>Baron of Yori is a historically based one. Maybe he has little or nothing
>to do with Yori and there is a Marquis of Yori that actually does whatever
>it is Imperial nobles do for their worlds for Yori?)

Norris is also Marquis of Yori, isn't he?

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 14:26:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Jun  3 13:26:22 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEANCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>There's a small propellant charge between two pistons.  When the weapon is
>fire, one piston pushes out the warhead, the other pushes out the
>countermass in the opposite direction.  The pistons are captured at the
ends
>of the tube, sealing in the flash and noise.

Ohh.  That kind of makes sense.  In a non-recoilless weapon (is there a more
cumbersome way to say that?), expanding gases push the warhead out through
the only opening, and follow it out.  The gases also push against the
breach, causing the sensation known as recoil.  The gases and the weapon
itself are pushed on an equal and opposite vector to the warhead.  By
opening the breach and letting the gases out, recoil is eliminated -- but a
greater mass of gas (that is, a larger propellant charge) would required for
the warhead to keep the same vector.  That gas is a countermass.  Instead of
adding more propellant (and hence more gas), the Armbrust uses a mass of
rubber bands.  Have I just passed the first week of high school physics
again?

Thanks, Tod, Victor, Dan, and Matthew for helping me think.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 14:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun  3 13:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
In-Reply-To: <m3n0ucyzpb.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B92125E3.5D61D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Just a quick question for the list.  Can noble titles be purchased?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 15:01:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Jun  3 14:01:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
In-Reply-To: <F674AZs7db4Tj2RA2Xy00016210@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20603.134814.2g6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Then there is the question of imports and outside assistance. A government 
> should be able to offer a Trader crew (PCs) something (cach, future trade 
> arrangements) to stay in orbit and provide orbital surveillance during 
> critical battles (imagine if a Free Trader had kept an eye on the Japanese 
> fleet in December 1941). A war could be lost because one side could not 
> promise enough shipments of fine wines, furs or similar. :)
>
> Some very useful high tech items can be rather cheaply produced and thus 
> bought in quantities that allow sufficient replacements for battle losses 
> and breakdowns. Rangefinders, radios, NV goggles, fire control, computers, 
> "spy equipment" (e.g. bugs) and security systems should be in this category. 
> Again this would be in small quantities used for intelligence operations and 
> important assets.

Actually, it'd be simpler to just buy a recon satellite "constellation"
from some trader. And arrange for regular visits to do maintenance. 

Several years back I pointed out that commsats would get orbited not
that long after there was a significant offworld traffic, simply for
the convenience of visitors. Being able to sell phone service and
weather sat imagery to the locals would be a bonus. 

Basicly, I figure that if there's a D or better starport, there *will*
be commsats and weathersats. And now that I think of it, some
radar/surveillance type satellites would be useful for customs, search
and rescue *and* for extra income in selling imagery on a balkanized
world. 

Given the easy access to oebit in Traveller, satellites are *cheap*. And
they can be easier to repair, because all you need to do is go up with
a ship's boat or the like, drag them in, swap out the bad module and
place the satellite back in orbit. 

Or just stick in a replacement satellite and take the bad unit down to
the ground where you can work on it at a normal workbench.

This will leading to things like wandering nomads with satellite phones
and video receivers for weather uodates. 

Players raiding that "primitive village may be surprised when they
return to the port and get arrested before they cross the extrality
line because the village elders made a satellite phone call to the
authorities. 

The native guide who seems to have such an uncanny sense for the
weather may eventually be spotted in his tent looking at the latest
pictures from the weather satellites on his "laptop" sized receiver.

Etc. 

Remember, places like India and some African countries have been using
direct broadcast TV and free receivers given to villages to help
educate their people for over 30 years. Many places in the Third World
are going directly to cell phones or satellite phones to save to costs
of running wires between scatttered towns and villages. Villages raise
the money to get *a* phone and *a* TV. Because it's more than worth the
cost and the upkeep. 

And at the lower tech end of things (but still "high" tech", there are
the wind up radios available from several sources. Turn the crank for a
bit and it's good for an hur (or is it hours?) of receiving
AM/FM/shortwave. 

Those are *very* popular in the third world, as batteries don't keep
well in the tropics.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 15:01:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Jun  3 14:01:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Hole in the Fence.
In-Reply-To: <200206030058.HPU02643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20603.140624.1T9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leslie Bates asks
>>I just saw THE SUM OF ALL FEARS, in one scene the character 
>>of John Clark sprays something on a chain link fence and 
>>then he tears a man sized hole in the fence.
>>
> <snip liquid nitrogen>
>
> I've used liquid nitrogen to break locks.  There are very few 
> common padlocks that can resist it.

From what I recall about 10 years back, LN2 cost about the same as
*milk*. And I seem to recall being told that you could essentially take
a *good* thermo and get suppliers to fill it for you if you were a
"home experimenter".

You'll get more boiloff than from a "proper" dewar, but not enough to
matter for short term use. 

I've toyed with the idea of an "ice chest" that releases LN2 a drop at
a time to cool things. Like dry ice, but a bit easier to deal with, at
the cost of a bit more complexity.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 15:02:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Jun  3 14:02:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEMHHIAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <20603.134400.2r0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In mail you write:
>
>> on 6/1/02 10:04 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>>
>>> Tanks require the same, plus the ability to *cast* the hulls. I
>>> don't see bolted together armor plates being able to survive a
>>> bazooka type weapon built with several millenia of experience
>>> backing up the "mid-low" TL maker.
>>
>> Spaced armor should do the trick.  Also note that modern composite
>> armors are not cast.  In fact, cast hulls are cheaper, but inferior
>> to cold rolled homogenous plate armor.
>
> Ok, I wasn't up on the tech, but I knew that the early "bolted on"
> armor wasn't going to work very well.
>
> Cold rolled armor is a bit beyond ACW level tech, though.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't railroad rails made by rolled
> steel by the civil war?  I know that by the end on the 1860's they
> were.

Rolling rails and rolling wide plates is a rather different proccess,
at least in terms of sort of equipment needed.

Also, he said *cold*-rolled. Last I looked, rails are *hot*-rolled.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 15:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Jun  3 14:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
In-Reply-To: <B92125E3.5D61D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023138269.5758.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> Just a quick question for the list.  Can noble titles be purchased?

Well, given that noble titles can be granted, that depends on whether the noble
with the authority to grant the title considers large amounts of money to be an
appropriate reason to grant a noble title.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 15:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Jun  3 14:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1023138269.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1023138269.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <m3k7pgoyhe.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> writes:
> 
> Well, given that noble titles can be granted, that depends on
> whether the noble with the authority to grant the title considers
> large amounts of money to be an appropriate reason to grant a noble
> title.

Granted by the Emperor and archdukes, right?  I don't think many
people have enough money to make _anything_ worth an archduke's
while.  And those who do would already be archdukes...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos harjav i merelotz!  Orhniale harutjun Christosi!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 15:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Jun  3 14:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
In-Reply-To: <m3k7pgoyhe.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023139547.113.ajackson@ping>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:
> 
> Granted by the Emperor and archdukes, right?  I don't think many
> people have enough money to make _anything_ worth an archduke's
> while.  And those who do would already be archdukes...

There's a lot of nobles in the Imperium, it's very unlikely that they're all
directly granted by higher nobility.  Grants of nobility probably have to be
confirmed by a higher authority, but in practice would be mostly under the
control of someone relatively local.

As for the second point, the statement 'those people with enough money to make
something worth an archduke's while are already archdukes' is another way of
saying 'yes, you can buy a title'.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 16:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon Jun  3 15:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller: The Silly Era
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020531154521.009f4060@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020603222036.54246.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> OK, inbetween bouts of writing, I've been cruising
> my sites looking for 
> places to improve them.  I've come to Traveller: The
> Silly Era.
> 
> Every time I've mentioned taking it down before,
> people have howled in 
> protest.  But I'm facing facts.  It's old, I haven't
> had a new idea for it 
> in ages, and to be blunt, nobody has given me any. 
> It takes up room.
> 
> So, I'm asking you:
> 
> Go to
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/silytrav.html 
> and look 
> around.  Then answer this question
> 
> What do you want to see done with the site?
> 
> a) Close it. You're right, this was funny when T4
> was out, but it's dated now.
> 
> b) Keep it!  It is a national treasure!
> 
> c) Cut it down to the best items and put them on one
> page.
> 
> d) Try to farm the hosting out.
> 
> e) Either b or c, but update the look!  Those little
> sun icons are a disgrace.
> 
> f) Fnord.  I was mail the Penguin the secret Grand
> Jury testimony along 
> with my opinion.
> 
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       

  >>
  B!
  >>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 17:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun  3 16:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Nunclees
Message-ID: <185.939a83a.2a2d58bc@aol.com>

As promised some stuff on the Nunclees.

The Nunclees appear in the T4's "Alien Archive". They are a conglomeration of 
non-sentient worm like creatures (8cm long, 0.5cm in diameter, 10g) that when 
gathered together in a large enough mass (around 12,800 individuals) become 
"highly intelligent, cognizant creatures with complete reasoning and 
problem-solving abilities." 

This "supreme" form sits at the top of a pyramid consisting of "median" (dog 
like intelligence), "lesser" and "least" (self aware) forms. The form above 
can divide into any of the lower forms and Nunclees are extremely resistant 
to damage since "only the individual component worms are mortal creatures".

Supreme forms use eight 60cm tentacles, of "roughly the same strength as a 
child's arm", for locomotion and manupulation. They are slower than humans 
and need high levels of humidty and moisture to survive. The Nunclees have no 
spoken language and communicate with each other by touch or the exchange of 
component worms

Psychologically the Nunclees are unemotional, difficult to motivate and have 
difficulty conceiving of other intelligent life as not another Nunclees. They 
also lack any concept of social organisation and "There is no community 
effort in accomplishing tasks...though many individuals may be working toward 
the same goal."

The Nunclees present something of an enigma since the indivdual worms lack 
intelligence and it is only when they aggregate that they display the 
characteristics of sapience. "The Imperium's Scout Service has yet to 
actually classify the Nunclees. They defy standard classification despite the 
fact that their Supreme form is undeniably intelligent...The Emperor has yet 
to meet a Nunclees face to face, as is the tradition for species that puzzle 
the experts. His judgement takes precedence."

Charles

"Rule One: Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly 
smiling men!"

Terry Pratchett, The Thief of Time

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 18:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Jun  3 17:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #568 - 19 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020603171518.E73DC279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020603171518.E73DC279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <2k0ofu8fkcp4un6jb7ih3usjr76vc3lht4@4ax.com>

On Mon, 03 Jun 2002 10:14:08 -0700, you wrote:

>                      Hopefully, the whole steaming pile will find a home on 
>the 'Net someplace as I do not want to pitch it to any publishers.

What is this 'hopefully' garbage?  Unless I get hit by a bus, it already
has a home, as soon as it's ready to move in.

Geez.  Some people...


* the attitude's a put-on. the implicit promise isn't. *
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 18:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Jun  3 17:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
In-Reply-To: <m3n0ucyzpb.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020604001314.07EE627990@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/03/02 at 12:38 PM,  ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
said:

>"Mark" <n2sami@attbi.com> writes:
>> 
>> Egad sir! Must I take up my lance and tilt against this windmill
>> again?  I think it unlikely the Imperium will codifying anything it
>> can possibly avoid codifying.

>I thought of this as I wrote it.  The problem is that the definition
>of a noble is vitally important to the Imperium.  The Imperium is
>ruled by men, not laws, but it must have some law to figure out who
>those men are.

>Also, this is a very simple law--not the sort which can be twisted
>around.  In fact, it barely deserves the name `law'--custom would be
>more accurate.  Custom which might happen to be codified.

It doesn't have to be a "law", it's enough that, in the view of the
Emperor, it be "just the way things are done" by custom and tradition. 
As it was in His pater or mater's time, so shall it be in his
children's...unless He wants to change it, of course. <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 18:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun  3 17:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Nobility (acting like rabbits)
Message-ID: <156.ec1f3ee.2a2d60fc@aol.com>

Robert Uhl quotes and replies:

>> IIRC, the Russian system had all descendents of a noble sharing in
>> their title, thus all descendents of a duke were a duke also.  This
>> method could provide the "all title-no job" nobles needed in canon.
>
>The problem with this system is that you pretty quickly have to come
>up with a way to kill of nobles--it creates huge numbers of them, with
>no weed-out effect.  Eventually everyone's a noble.  Or, perh. more
>accurately, every noble's a duke, and the commoners are _really_
>low-class.  The nobles might marry within their class, gradually
>increasing the status of them all (the child of a duke & a countess
>being a duke), and have so many children that you get middle-class and
>even low-class nobility, who still carry their titles.  Only the real
>dregs of society would lack noble titles, their ancestors never having
>managed to catch the eye of some passing lord.

The sheer numbers are mitigated somewhat by the human tendency to reproduce 
more slowly as income and standard of living rises. This effect may be 
lessened if the tech is high enough that body births are no longer necessary, 
but the smart noble will still opt for quality over quantity. As one recent 
book that actually addresses this in a sidebar (and is a fine read if you've 
been keeping up with the series), I highly recommend Lois McMasters Bujold's 
"A Civil Campaign". Heck, I recommend everything of hers, even the fantasy...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 18:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Jun  3 17:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Nobility (acting like rabbits)
In-Reply-To: <156.ec1f3ee.2a2d60fc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020604003929.CE882279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/03/02 at 08:17 PM,  GypsyComet@aol.com said:

>Robert Uhl quotes and replies:

>>> IIRC, the Russian system had all descendents of a noble sharing in
>>> their title, thus all descendents of a duke were a duke also.  This
>>> method could provide the "all title-no job" nobles needed in canon.
>>
>>The problem with this system is that you pretty quickly have to come
>>up with a way to kill of nobles--it creates huge numbers of them, with
>>no weed-out effect.  Eventually everyone's a noble.  Or, perh. more
>>accurately, every noble's a duke, and the commoners are _really_
>>low-class.  The nobles might marry within their class, gradually
>>increasing the status of them all (the child of a duke & a countess
>>being a duke), and have so many children that you get middle-class and
>>even low-class nobility, who still carry their titles.  Only the real
>>dregs of society would lack noble titles, their ancestors never having
>>managed to catch the eye of some passing lord.

>The sheer numbers are mitigated somewhat by the human tendency to
>reproduce  more slowly as income and standard of living rises. This
>effect may be  lessened if the tech is high enough that body births
>are no longer necessary,  but the smart noble will still opt for
>quality over quantity. As one recent  book that actually addresses
>this in a sidebar (and is a fine read if you've  been keeping up with
>the series), I highly recommend Lois McMasters Bujold's  "A Civil
>Campaign". Heck, I recommend everything of hers, even the fantasy...

If I remember correctly, almost farmer, laborer, or milkmaid in
pre-WWI Poland was a noble. I'm sure they had a way to distinguish
between the "real" nobility and everyone else. <g>

As for MTU, a roll of 12 on SOC makes one *potentially* from a noble
family. It took another roll of 10 to be a Knight, 11 to be a Baron,
or 12 to be a Marquis..which, of course, is still high.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 19:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Jun  3 18:07:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither ISSDEC
Message-ID: <20020604010622.74330.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

Well, I haven't heard from anyone regarding the votes
for the May ISSDEC.  I have an idea for the June
Competition, but if there is no interest, there isn't
any reason to continue.

So what do we do?

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 19:07:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Mon Jun  3 18:07:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Nobility (acting like rabbits)
References: <20020604003929.CE882279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CFC1261.6020002@yarranet.net.au>

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> 
> As for MTU, a roll of 12 on SOC makes one *potentially* from a noble
> family. It took another roll of 10 to be a Knight, 11 to be a Baron,
> or 12 to be a Marquis..which, of course, is still high.


I always took the character generation system as producing adventurers 
and not your run of the mill Imperial citizen. A flick through 1001 
Characters or Citizens to see the number of nobles there would be 
interesting although they are for use as PC's as well as NPC's I wonder 
if they are totally random or if the Soc was kept at a lower level.

The reason the chance for Nobility is so high is because it's a common 
thing amongst player characters. >;D

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/traveller/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 19:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Jun  3 18:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither ISSDEC
Message-ID: <200206040121.HRS00098@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Paul Walker says
>Well, I haven't heard from anyone regarding the votes
>for the May ISSDEC.  I have an idea for the June
>Competition, but if there is no interest, there isn't
>any reason to continue.
>
>So what do we do?

Paul, I applaud your efforts - me, I'm trying to hold down a 
job, juggle four kids under the age of 12 with no help from 
my thoroughly modern second wife (any help would smack of 
domesticity), commute 2 hours each way, write software for 
yet another start up after the kids hit the hay, run a PBEM 
here and there, edit a supplement-to-be... Dammit, where am I 
going to find time to go to the range....

I like the idea of designing ships - but - if it's a 
specialized ship, it's furniture for an adventure - so I want 
an adventure to go with it (Leviathan, anyone?).  Even 
better, I would really like a tactical battle challenge.  Set 
a price limit, come up with a tactical scenario, pick the 
rule set, and may the best ship win.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 19:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Jun  3 18:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither ISSDEC
In-Reply-To: <200206040121.HRS00098@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020604014744.84252.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> 
> Paul, I applaud your efforts - me, I'm trying to
> hold down a 
> job, juggle four kids under the age of 12 with no
> help from 
> my thoroughly modern second wife (any help would

Ouch.  I've got the job, and four kids under 9, but my
wife is stay-at-home.  She teaches the older two.  Me,
I have an obsession with scoring baseball games, so my
nights are pretty busy, but not nearly as serious as
yours.

In any case, Don't worry and participate when you can.

I would like to get some adventures and the like to go
along with some of the designs.  Also, I want to do
some deckplans of the winners when I get time.

So, don't sweat it.  ISSDEC is there if there is
enough interest to keep it going, but if not, well,
I'll have more time to score baseball games.  :)

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 20:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Jun  3 19:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Picky, picky...
Message-ID: <20020604021542.29099.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
The reason they want officers to pilot planes is that 
they trust officers more, because they are more
heavily brainwashed than other ranks ( Other than in
the U.S.Marine Corps, where the other ranks are as
brainwashed as the officers. <grin>) 
END QUOTE

I belive the corp prefers the term cranial sanitation.

 
;)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - The Sold.com.au Big Brand Sale
- New PCs, notebooks, digital cameras, phones and more ... Sale ends June 12

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 20:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun  3 19:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Private SR-71(BlackBird) Built
In-Reply-To: <3CFC1261.6020002@yarranet.net.au>
Message-ID: <3CFBE303.11608.CC781E@localhost>

Caught this tonight on local news channel. It seems a gentlement bought parts of 
SR-71 BlackBird on Ebay, then assembled them. From the photo atleast the outer 
fusealage was pretty much intact. It also seems that he bought some parts that 
private citizens are not allowed to own......The Air Force is trying? to buy it back.<G>

That could put Ebay on the spy shoppers best list.<G>

Sinbad Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 21:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Mon Jun  3 20:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Private SR-71(BlackBird) Built
Message-ID: <20020603232037.bbc46fb71c5143329bec4dbb3e82f216.in@keywest.kennett.net>

Given the fact that the parts for the SR-71 is pretty limited, and probably
are ALL restricted, this story sounds far-fetch.  Nobody can purchase that
much parts and not be noticed (Not unless they are sneaking onto AMARC and
waltzing away with free parts from there.).

Just ask any of the fellows who was buying parts for the Blackbird or F-16
on EBay...

C.T.

>Caught this tonight on local news channel. It seems a gentlement bought
parts of 
>SR-71 BlackBird on Ebay, then assembled them. From the photo atleast the outer 
>fusealage was pretty much intact. It also seems that he bought some parts that 
>private citizens are not allowed to own......The Air Force is trying? to
buy it back.<G>
>
>That could put Ebay on the spy shoppers best list.<G>
>
>Sinbad Sam
"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun  3 21:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Jun  3 20:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEAPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>Just a quick question for the list.  Can noble titles be purchased?

Others have answered this question in a pragmatic fashion (how money would
interest and archduke? or a duke who advises the archduke on who should get
a title? or a count who advises a duke? etc.).  I'll approach from a
somewhat legalistic perspective, given that custom probably has the force of
law in this most important area of the social contract among Emperor,
nobility, and worlds.

Also, I'll start with answering a slightly different question:  Can noble
titles be sold?  The holder of a noble title does not have full rights of
alienation.  The titleholder is permitted to give up the title only to
certain others:  back to the Emperor from whence it came (even if it long
predates Cleon I; see my earlier post on a related subject) (hence the idea
of the restoration of the Ziru Sirka, so that all noble titles are still
subject to escheat); or to an heir prior to or after death of the
titleholder, if the patent of nobility so provides.

So part of the answer to your question is, a noble title cannot be purchased
from a titleholder.

The other part of your question is, can a noble title be purchased from the
Emperor?  Officially (as much as custom can become official), it cannot.
The Emperor creates new nobles in recognition or reward for some service to
the Imperium.  The Emperor may under certain circumstances (like conviction
for treason) take a title away from a titleholder and grant it to another,
but the standards for that grant are the same.  The Emperor would have to be
in a very sorry financial state indeed to be willing to sell a noble title
(and who would have enough money to interest the Emperor, even if he was in
a sorry financial state?).

There is, of course, an old saying attributed to Raymonde Ching-i
hault-Oberlindes, the first Baron Feri:  "You always pay for it.  The only
question is how."

The foregoing is how I see it, and how it works in my Traveller universe.
Your parsecage may vary.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 03:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Jun  4 02:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #570 - 23 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020604032307.4885D279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020604032307.4885D279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <911pfucp8mp4mcdtmui5md87lhd7lek8ek@4ax.com>

On Mon, 03 Jun 2002 20:22:03 -0700, you wrote:

>Norris is also Marquis of Yori, isn't he?

Norris Aella Aledon is Archduke Deneb (in the Assassination timeline), Duke
of Regina, Count Aledon, Marquis of Regina, Baron Yori.
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 03:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Jun  4 02:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick Con Report
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEAPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMENMHNAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

I've just returned from the 2002 New Zealand National Science
Fiction Convention "Con with the Wind" in Wellington, New
Zealand(Wellington is known for it's wind).

While there was no Traveller actually played, I sat on one of the
panels on Science Fiction Wargaming, where we discussed Fifth
Frontier War and Azhanti High Lightning among many other
products.

We also discussed many of the issues that have appeared on this
list in the past, such as whether fighters make any sense at all,
the ground-pressure problems associated with mecha,
the utility of missiles and the like. I suspect it was due to
immersion in debates on these matters on this list that I could
present convincing arguments.

The guests included Joe and Gay Haldeman, and Charles Brown
(editor of Locus) whom I got to have dinner with. I would
recommend chatting with the Haldeman's if you ever get a chance,
they are both interesting to talk to, and genuinely friendly,
though you should _not_ attempt to outdo Joe in wine-drinking
<grin>.

Also present at the Con were Australian writers Lucy Sussex and
Stephen Dedman (whom Gurps players may remember from "GURPS
Martial Arts Adventures" among others).

Dale Elvy, a friend from  many years of CoC roleplaying games at
KapCon conventions, was also present and won the Sir Julius Vogel
Awards for "Best Novel" and "Best Newcomer", for his new novel
"First Hunter" (Harper-Collins).

Dan Hennah, Art Director for "The Lord of the Rings", gave a very
interesting presentation on an obvious subject.

Perhaps the best part was that for assisting in panels and
running the "Settlers of Catan" tournament, I recieved a
not-available-elsewhere miniature of Frodo's sword "Sting", one
of the orignal batch of 1500 produced for the LoTR show in
Cannes.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 03:43:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Jun  4 02:43:24 2002
Subject: [TML] The ancient Solomani pre-cursor to MyMines LIC?
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEAPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKENMHNAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Just found this site :

http://www.enrobreport.com/

Frankie


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 04:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Tue Jun  4 03:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Trav = Silly = Doug Berry
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17C07@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Perhaps the Silly Site would be a could storage mechanism for Stoopid
Traveller Stories? Whaddya think Doug? Will you take submissions?

I'm sure there's some stories out there in TML land that would rival the
Traveller Cartoon strip of the pre-warhammer White Dwarf fame. 

Like the
severed-Vargr-head-on-the-dahlmer-to-inspire-villagers-to-rise-against-Vargr
-oppressors-only-to-find-that-Vargr-oppressors-have-since-taken-village one
I posted recently. 

Sigh. That was funny. 

On a side note, some of the SpaceHack strips from Knights of the Dinner
Table really hit the spot. 

And I'd like to see some of the Ground Forces NPCs that did not make the cut
up there too. Like Baron Captain Sir Marmaduke Vessily, Captain of the
Catering Corps, who was responsible for the greatest mass poisoning in
Imperial Military history when Two Million MRE's received vitamin squirts,
no pun intended, contaminated with near lethal does of super-laxatives.

Stuff like that. 

Mikey




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 04:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue Jun  4 03:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
References: <B92125E3.5D61D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CFD45FB.254B017D@mindspring.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

> Just a quick question for the list.  Can noble titles be purchased?
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> --
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Why yes my future Lord! I have a very nice Dukedom here for only 35
MCrimp. Too expensive? Here's a sweet little Maquisship for 12 MCrimp,
or if thats still out of your range, how about a 3 MCrimp Barony?


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I eat babies. I drink pee. I must be French!, French!, French!
                  -Nathan Lane & Chris Katein



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 05:42:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Jun  4 04:42:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Private SR-71(BlackBird) Built
Message-ID: <200206041141.HSM01356@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

It wasn't an entire aircraft.  It was some of the 
electronics, such as parts of the x-band radar.  The parts 
had been abandoned in a warehouse, and even after he notified 
the supply depot, they weren't interested - in fact, they 
told him to sell them on ebay.

Someone is in a lot of trouble, since the parts were marked 
that no civilian can possess them.

I believe that any photo of the aircraft shown during the TV 
segment was just file footage to show the type of aircraft 
involved.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 06:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Jun  4 05:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither ISSDEC
Message-ID: <3CFCAF6E.66CD3EC2@mail.cswnet.com>

Paul Walker writes:
>Well, I haven't heard from anyone regarding the votes
>for the May ISSDEC.  I have an idea for the June
>Competition, but if there is no interest, there isn't
>any reason to continue.
>
>So what do we do?

Well, I've been on vacation last week. 
I think there is alot of people off on a break.
Notice how slow the TML has been of late--
13 digests in the past week.

Of course it don't help that I've lost the ISSDEC site.
Anybody know where it is?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 06:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Jun  4 05:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither ISSDEC
In-Reply-To: <3CFCAF6E.66CD3EC2@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20020604123845.98232.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> wrote:
> Of course it don't help that I've lost the ISSDEC
> site.
> Anybody know where it is?

http://pslccl.com/issdec/

There you go.

Well, would it be better if ISSDEC was a bi-monthly
(every 2 months) contest?  That would definitely give
more time, but it would also mean more time between
new designs and more time to loose interest.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 08:46:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Jun  4 07:46:15 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Trav = Silly = Doug Berry
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17C07@r1clex01.cbr.defe
 nce.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020604074232.009ee390@mindspring.com>

At 04:28 PM 6/4/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Perhaps the Silly Site would be a could storage mechanism for Stoopid
>Traveller Stories? Whaddya think Doug? Will you take submissions?

Of course!  I'll take stupid stories, unforgettable deaths, famous last 
words.. anything that is funny and Traveller.

One thing, I won't be doing any work on the site until after the 
unforgivably late Trojan Reach project is finished.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 09:46:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Jun  4 08:46:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Marine Brainwashing (Was Re:Picky, picky...)
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22911@USCHM203>

>James Ramsey wrote:
>Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 12:15:42 +1000 (EST)
>From: =?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?= <quakers_united@yahoo.com.au>
>Subject: RE: [TML] Picky, picky...
>To: TML <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>QUOTE
>The reason they want officers to pilot planes is that 
>they trust officers more, because they are more
>heavily brainwashed than other ranks ( Other than in
>the U.S.Marine Corps, where the other ranks are as
>brainwashed as the officers. <grin>) 
>END QUOTE

>I belive the corp prefers the term cranial sanitation.


Just thought I'd share some of my experience:

	I was a year to two years older than most of the recruits in my
platoon in basic and quite a bit more cosmopolitan and experienced "out in
the real world" than those coming just out of high school---at least I
thought I was.(though we had one "old man" who was, at 26, older than a
couple of our DIs) 
	While we did not undergo what I would call true brainwashing, there
was certainly an effect on one's opinion both of one's own abilities and
that of the Corps.
	In short, by the end of 12 weeks on Parris Island, I found myself at
times wondering why the United States even needed an Air Force, Army, or
Navy(except to carry Marines around). 
	As far as I was concerned (jokingly, but only half-jokingly) the
Marines were single-handedly responsible for the Allied victory in WWII. And
not just in the Pacific, mind you, but in Europe as well(yes, there were no
Marines in Europe, but that's irrelevant :).
	Among the infantry I found that there was a further seperation
within the Corps. Infantry were the "true" Marines. Every other MOS in the
Corps, from Motor Transport to Artillery, existed for the sole purpose of
supporting Marine Infantry. Hell, the entire industrial output of the
Western hemisphere existed, ultimately, for the sole purpose of supporting
the 0300s.
	Air Wingers, hell, Air Wingers were barely in the Corps.
	An exception to this was Navy Corpsmen. These guys were well
regarded, and treated with the utmost respect. Any poor swab who joined the
Navy expecting to see the world, and ended up down in the mud with the
grunts was basically a Marine in all but rank and uniform.
	As it is, the Marines prefer to call their extreme pride and
dedication "esprit de corps".
	For the most part, though, Marines can and do get along with other
services, and these rivalries are more often friendly than hostile (though
things can get VERY hostile in certain situations). 
	And occasionally, Marines might overestimate their own abilities. A
few days before graduation from boot camp, one of our DIs said, "You guys
are gonna be Marines soon. You've proved yourselves. You're tough. And ready
to take on the world. Just do me a favor privates: Don't walk into a bar and
think you can take on a room full of sailors. You WILL get your ass kicked."
:)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 11:33:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Jun  4 10:33:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Marine Brainwashing (Was Re:Picky, picky...)
Message-ID: <F263zr0dSHpVyLridnG00010c55@hotmail.com>

From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

     "For the most part, though, Marines can and do get along with other
services, and these rivalries are more often friendly than hostile (though 
things can get VERY hostile in certain situations)."


Mr. Hurrel,

     During my six years in the Haze Grey Canoe Club, the only interservice 
brawl I witnessed involved the Air Force, of all people.
     Marines, Army, and Navy were all enjoying a pleasent afternoon in the 
Acey-Deucey Club at Roosevelt Roads in Puerto Rico.  Rounds of drinks were 
passed around and games of billiards played with nary a tiff, until the 
members of KC-135 squadron minced into the bar.  Not 15 minutes went by 
before the Senior Services escorted the bus drivers out of there.
     Even during my time walking Shore Patrol in Olongapo, outside of Subic 
Bay in the Phillipines, I never saw a strictly interservice fight.  Plenty 
of drunks whaling on each other, plus a Sasquatch-like, liquored up, Ozark 
hillbilly brought down with a Taser, but none of the "Let's beat up 
jarheads" or "Let's beat up squids" silliness you always here about.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 12:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Jun  4 11:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Marine Brainwashing (Was Re:Picky, picky...)
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22911@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020604105545.009f5850@mindspring.com>

At 11:45 AM 6/4/02 -0400, you wrote:
>         An exception to this was Navy Corpsmen. These guys were well
>regarded, and treated with the utmost respect. Any poor swab who joined the
>Navy expecting to see the world, and ended up down in the mud with the
>grunts was basically a Marine in all but rank and uniform.

Well, they *do* see the world.  Tiny little bits of it from extremely short 
ranges.

Trust me, your brand of brainwashing was far from unique.  After OSUT I was 
convinced that US Infantry had been responsible for every military victory 
in history, stretching back to Alexander, that tanks were just toys to keep 
soldiers who could not be among us Gods of Land Warfare occupied, and that 
gun bunnies were close enough to REMFs not to make a difference.  The Air 
Force?  You mean the bus drivers, right?  We didn't mention the Navy or the 
Marines out of respect for those poor, misguided souls.

Such attitudes faded quickly once into a FORCOM unit, where you learned 
that artillery is your fiend and that a platoon of M-60s (dating myself 
here) at the right time can make the difference between success and 
failure, and that even the Marines have a few redeeming features.  But that 
initial burst of propaganda is designed to get you through the difficult 
transition from civilian to soldier.

Anyway, we all know that the United States Infantry is the best.. <g, d, r!>


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 12:18:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Jun  4 11:18:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Marine Brainwashing (Was Re:Picky, picky...)
In-Reply-To: <F263zr0dSHpVyLridnG00010c55@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020604110432.009f84f0@mindspring.com>

At 05:32 PM 6/4/02 +0000, you wrote:
>During my six years in the Haze Grey Canoe Club, the only interservice 
>brawl I witnessed involved the Air Force, of all people.

You never watched the Army-Other Guys Game with a bunch of drunken Doggies 
and Squids.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 12:36:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Tue Jun  4 11:36:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Marine Brainwashing (Was Re:Picky, picky...)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020604105545.009f5850@mindspring.com>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22911@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020604133547.0097e480@minn.net>

At 11:03 AM 6/4/2002 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>Anyway, we all know that the United States Infantry is the best.. <g, d, r!>

Right.


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
					--R. Hemmerding
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 13:50:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun  4 12:50:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Marine Brainwashing (Was Re:Picky, picky...)
Message-ID: <20020604.124921.-69681.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Tue, 04 Jun 2002 13:35:47 -0500 Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
writes:
> At 11:03 AM 6/4/2002 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> >Anyway, we all know that the United States Infantry is the best.. 
> 
> Right.

Yep, and narry a brain out of step either...

Double Time, March!

I wanna be an Airborne Ranger . . .

          ...Yo Left, Right, Left!



________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 14:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Jun  4 13:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEBBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>
>
>Tod Glenn wrote:
>
>> Just a quick question for the list.  Can noble titles be purchased?
>
>Why yes my future Lord! I have a very nice Dukedom here for only 35
>MCrimp. Too expensive? Here's a sweet little Maquisship for 12 MCrimp,
>or if thats still out of your range, how about a 3 MCrimp Barony?

Hello!  Lords-r-Us!  Our twenty-four hour operators are standing by, but
please help them help you by providing the following information:

If you have a net worth of less than one-half billion credits, press one for
bargain baronies.
If you have a net worth between one-half and one billion credits, press two
to explore your options.
If you have a net worth in excess of one billion credits, press three for
our special VIP service.
If you are interested in obtaining a title over lands that have not yet
rejoined the Imperium, press four; if you already own or operate an
independent naval squadron, press five.

Thank you for your business!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 14:14:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue Jun  4 13:14:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Nobility
In-Reply-To: <20020603171516.8C5D0279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206042159250.31383-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Terry Carlino writes:

>>>Behind the Claw says that Yori is a Feudal Technocracy, the typical way
>>>of saying that a world is directly controlled by an Imperial Noble.
>>
>>Where does it say that?
>
>Where does it say what? That Yori is a Feudal Technocracy or that Feudal
>Technocracies are directly controlled by an Imperial Noble?

The latter, of course. You just told me that BtC said the former (And I do
know how to interpret UWPs of Yori found in several other sources).

And Robert Uhl writes:
>Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>
>>>Behind the Claw says that Yori is a Feudal Technocracy, the typical
>>>way of saying that a world is directly controlled by an Imperial
>>>Noble.
>>
>>Where does it say that?
>
>On pg. 82 of GT:BtC, `Yori...Government: Technocracy (seat of the
>baron of Yori, another of Archduke Norris' titles).'  Which certainly
>implies that he's the ruler.

So it does. As I said in a previous posting, Traveller authors have
exhibited a lamentable lack of imagination when it comes to the roles of
specific Imperial nobles. Were BtC to be revised I'd hope that that
tidbit would be one of the bits retconned away. I think that it would make
a lot more sense if there was a Marquis of Yori who was Yori's Imperial
noble (while Norris' baronial title goes back to the time when Yori only
rated a baron). However, while that Marquis might also be the Technocrat
of Yori, he might also not be.

Be that as it may, the text does not say that a Feudal Technocracy rating
is the typical way of saying that a world is directly controlled by an
Imperial Noble.


>OTOH, GT:FI states on pg. 93 that technocracy is rule by technical
>experts with noble titles.  These are not nec. mutually exclusive: it
>very well could be that the nobles are the ones who receive the advanced
>schooling.  In fact, this makes a lot sense.

I certainly think that the ruler of a Feudal Technocracy *can* be an
Imperial noble. I just don't think it's a given, and I think that if he
is, then it means that he is holding two hats, as it were. Just as
Delphine IMO is wearing one hat whe she is being Duchess of Mora (Duchy)
and another when she is being Matriarch of Mora (System).




Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 14:28:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Tue Jun  4 13:28:09 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: The Case for the Empire
Message-ID: <20020604202707.84861.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>

Following is a bit that a friend sent me.....MACessna

*******************************************************

The Case for the Empire
Everything you think you know about Star Wars is
wrong.
by Jonathan V. Last


Jonathan V. Last, online editor

STAR WARS RETURNS today with its fifth installment,
"Attackof the Clones." 
There will be talk of the Force and the Dark Side and
the epic morality of 
George Lucas's series. But the truth is that from the
beginning, Lucas confused 
the good guys with the bad. The deep lesson of Star
Wars is that the Empire is 
good.

It's a difficult leap to make--embracing Darth Vader
and the Emperor over the 
plucky and attractive Luke Skywalker and Princess
Leia--but a careful examination 
of the facts, sorted apart from Lucas's off-the-shelf
moral cues, makes a quite 
convincing case.

First, an aside: For the sake of this discussion, I've
considered only the history 
gleaned from the actual Star Wars films, not the
Expanded Universe. If you know 
what the Expanded Universe is and want to argue that
no discussion of Star Wars 
can be complete without considering material outside
the canon, that's fine. 
However, it's always been my view that the comic books
and novels largely serve to 
clean up Lucas's narrative and philosophical messes.
Therefore, discussions of 
intrinsic intent must necessarily revolve around the
movies alone. You may disagree, 
but please don't e-mail me about it.

If you don't know what the Expanded Universe is, well,
uh, neither do I.


I. The Problems with the Galactic Republic

At the beginning of the Star Wars saga, the known
universe is governed by the 
Galactic Republic. The Republic is controlled by a
Senate, which is, in turn, run by 
an elected chancellor who's in charge of procedure,
but has little real power.

Scores of thousands of planets are represented in the
Galactic Senate, and as we 
first encounter it, it is sclerotic and ineffectual.
The Republic has grown over 
many millennia to the point where there are so many
factions and disparate interests,
that it is simply too big to be governable. Even the
Republic's staunchest supporters recognize this
failing: In "The Phantom Menace," Queen Amidala
admits, "It is clear 
to me now that the Republic no longer functions." In
"Attack of the Clones," young 
Anakin Skywalker observes that it simply "doesn't
work."

The Senate moves so slowly that it is powerless to
stop aggression between member 
states. In "The Phantom Menace" a supra-planetary
alliance, the Trade Federation 
(think of it as OPEC to the Galactic Republic's United
Nations), invades a planet and 
all the Senate can agree to do is call for an
investigation.

Like the United Nations, the Republic has no armed
forces of its own, but instead 
relies on a group of warriors, the Jedi knights, to
"keep the peace." The Jedi, while autonomous, often
work in tandem with the Senate, trying to smooth over
quarrels and 
avoid conflicts. But the Jedi number only in the
thousands--they cannot protect
everyone.

What's more, it's not clear that they should be
"protecting" anyone. The Jedi are 
Lucas's great heroes, full of Zen wisdom and righteous
power. They encourage people 
to "use the Force"--the mystical energy which is the
source of their power--but the 
truth, revealed in "The Phantom Menace," is that the
Force isn't available to the
rabble. The Force comes from midi-chlorians, tiny
symbiotic organisms in people's 
blood, like mitochondria. The Force, it turns out, is
an inherited, genetic trait. 
If you don't have the blood, you don't get the Force. 

Which makes the Jedi not a democratic militia, but a
royalist Swiss guard.

And an arrogant royalist Swiss guard, at that. With
one or two notable exceptions, 
the Jedi we meet in Star Wars are full of themselves.
They ignore the counsel of 
others (often with terrible consequences), and seem
honestly to believe that they 
are at the center of the universe. When the chief Jedi
record-keeper is asked in 
"Attack of the Clones" about a planet she has never
heard of, she replies that if 
it's not in the Jedi archives, it doesn't exist. (The
planet in question does exist, 
again, with terrible consequences.)

In "Attack of the Clones," a mysterious figure, Count
Dooku, leads a separatist 
movement of planets that want to secede from the
Republic. Dooku promises these 
confederates smaller government, unlimited free trade,
and an "absolute commitment 
to capitalism." Dooku's motives are suspect--it's not
clear whether or not he 
believes in these causes. However, there's no reason
to doubt the motives of the 
other separatists--they seem genuinely to want to make
a freshstart with a 
government that isn't bloated and dysfunctional.

The Republic, of course, is eager to quash these
separatists, but they never make a compelling case--or
any case, for that matter--as to why, if they are such
a 
freedom-loving regime, these planets should not be
allowed to check out of the 
Republic and take control of their own destinies.


II. The Empire

We do not yet know the exact how's and why's, but we
do know this: At some point 
between the end of Episode II and the beginning of
Episode IV, the Republic is 
replaced by an Empire. The first hint comes in "Attack
of the Clones," when the 
Senate's Chancellor Palpatine is granted emergency
powers to deal with the 
separatists. It spoils very little to tell you that
Palpatine eventually becomes the
Emperor. For a time, he keeps the Senate in place,
functioning as a rubber-stamp, 
much like the Roman imperial senate, but a few minutes
into Episode IV, we are 
informed that the he has dissolved the Senate, and
that "the last remnants of the 
Old Republic have been swept away."

Lucas wants the Empire to stand for evil, so he tells
us that the Emperor and Darth 
Vader have gone over to the Dark Side and dresses them
in black.

But look closer. When Palpatine is still a senator, he
says, "The Republic is not 
what it once was. The Senate is full of greedy,
squabbling delegates. There is no 
interest in the common good." At one point he laments
that "the bureaucrats are in 
charge now."

Palpatine believes that the political order must be
manipulated to produce peace 
and stability. When he mutters, "There is no civility,
there is only politics," we 
see that at heart, he's an esoteric Straussian.

Make no mistake, as emperor, Palpatine is a
dictator--but a relatively benign 
one, like Pinochet. It's a dictatorship people can do
business with. They 
collect taxes and patrol the skies. They try to stop
organized crime (in the 
form of the smuggling rings run by the Hutts). The
Empire has virtually no 
effect on the daily life of the average, law-abiding
citizen.

Also, unlike the divine-right Jedi, the Empire is a
meritocracy. The Empire 
runs academies throughout the galaxy (Han Solo begins
his career at an Imperial 
academy), and those who show promise are promoted,
often rapidly. In "The 
Empire Strikes Back" Captain Piett is quickly promoted
to admiral when his 
predecessor "falls down on the job."

And while it's a small point, the Empire's manners and
decorum speak well of it. 
When Darth Vader is forced to employ bounty hunters to
track down Han Solo, he 
refuses to address them by name. Even Boba Fett, the
greatest of all trackers, 
is referred to icily as "bounty hunter." And yet Fett
understands the protocol. 
When he captures Solo, he calls him "Captain Solo."
(Whether this is in
deference to Han's former rank in the Imperial
starfleet, or simply
because Han owns and pilots his own ship, we don't
know. I suspect it's
the former.)

But the most compelling evidence that the Empire isn't
evil comes in "The Empire 
Strikes Back" when Darth Vader is battling Luke
Skywalker. After an exhausting 
fight, Vader is poised to finish Luke off, but he
stays his hand. He tries to 
convert Luke to the Dark Side with this simple plea:
"There is no escape. Don't 
make me destroy you. . . . Join me, and I will
complete your training. With our
combined strength, we can end this destructive
conflict and bring order to the 
galaxy." It is here we find the real controlling
impulse for the Dark Side and 
the Empire. The Empire doesn't want slaves or
destruction or "evil." It wants 
order.

None of which is to say that the Empire isn't
sometimes brutal. In Episode IV, 
Imperial stormtroopers kill Luke's aunt and uncle and
Grand Moff Tarkin orders the destruction of an entire
planet,Alderaan. But viewed in context, these acts are

less brutal than they initially appear. Poor Aunt Beru
and Uncle Owen reach a
grisly end, but only after they aid the rebellion by
hiding Luke and harboring
two fugitive droids. They aren't given due process,
but they are traitors.

The destruction of Alderaan is often cited as ipso
facto proof of the Empire's 
"evilness" because it seems like mass
murder--planeticide, even. As Tarkin prepares 
to fire the Death Star, Princess Leia implores him to
spare the planet, saying, 
"Alderaan is peaceful. We have no weapons." Her plea
is important, if true.

But the audience has no reason to believe that Leia is
telling the truth. In Episode 
IV, every bit of information she gives the Empire is
willfully untrue. In the 
opening, she tells Darth Vader that she is on a
diplomatic mission of mercy, when in 
fact she is on a spy mission, trying to deliver
schematics of the Death Star to the 
Rebel Alliance. When asked where the Alliance is
headquartered, she lies again.

Leia's lies are perfectly defensible--she thinks she's
serving the greater good--
but they make her wholly unreliable on the question of
whether or not Alderaan 
really is peaceful and defenseless. If anything, since
Leia is a high-ranking member 
of the rebellion and the princess of Alderaan, it
would be reasonable to suspect
that Alderaan is a front for Rebel activity or at
least home to many more spies and insurgents like
Leia.

Whatever the case, the important thing to recognize is
that the Empire is not 
committing random acts of terror. It is engaged in a
fight for the survival of its 
regime against a violent group of rebels who are
committed to its destruction.


III. After the Rebellion

As we all know from the final Star Wars installment,
"Return of the Jedi," the 
rebellion is eventually successful. The Emperor is
assassinated, Darth Vader 
abdicates his post and dies, the central governing
apparatus of the Empire is 
destroyed in a spectacular space battle, and the
rebels rejoice with their small, 
annoying Ewok friends. But what happens next?

(There is a raft of literature on this point, but, as
I said at the beginning, I'm 
going to ignore it because it doesn't speak to Lucas's
original intent.)

In Episode IV, after Grand Moff Tarkin announces that
the Imperial Senate has been abolished, he's asked how
the Emperor can possibly hope to keep control of the 
galaxy. "The regional governors now have direct
control over territories," he says. 
"Fear will keep the local systems in line."

So under Imperial rule, a large group of regional
potentates, each with access to a 
sizable army and star destroyers, runs local affairs.
These governors owe their 
fealty to the Emperor. And once the Emperor is dead,
the galaxy will be plunged 
into chaos.

In all of the time we spend observing the Rebel
Alliance, we never hear of their 
governing strategy or their plans for a post-Imperial
universe. All we see are plots 
and fighting. Their victory over the Empire doesn't
liberate the galaxy--it turns 
the galaxy into Somalia writ large: dominated by local
warlords who are answerable to
no one.

Which makes the rebels--Lucas's heroes--an
unimpressive crew of anarchic royals who 
wreck the galaxy so that Princess Leia can have her
tiara back.

I'll take the Empire.


Jonathan V. Last is online editor of The Weekly
Standard.



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 14:44:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Jun  4 13:44:11 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: The Case for the Empire
In-Reply-To: <20020604202707.84861.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023223433.7419.ajackson@ping>

It might have been easier to get a pointer to a URL, I've seen this on the WWW
before.

In any case, the author has a point; the Rebels are not necessarily admirable
people, nor are they all that likely to create a successful replacement
government.  This does not, however, make the Empire good; there's no
requirement that a 'good' side exists in any given conflict.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 15:01:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue Jun  4 14:01:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Marine Brainwashing (Was Re:Picky, picky...)
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020604110432.009f84f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CFDD32F.5F218AAB@mindspring.com>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 05:32 PM 6/4/02 +0000, you wrote:
> >During my six years in the Haze Grey Canoe Club, the only interservice
> >brawl I witnessed involved the Air Force, of all people.
>
> You never watched the Army-Other Guys Game with a bunch of drunken Doggies
> and Squids.
>
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

The IN-IMC game is the true donnybrook.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Proposed traffic law
m*v^2=R, Where m= mass, v= velocity, R= right of way



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 15:50:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Jun  4 14:50:29 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: The Case for the Empire
References: <ML-2.3.1023223433.7419.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CFD35C8.504@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> It might have been easier to get a pointer to a URL, I've seen this on the WWW
> before.
> 
> In any case, the author has a point; the Rebels are not necessarily admirable
> people, nor are they all that likely to create a successful replacement
> government.  This does not, however, make the Empire good; there's no
> requirement that a 'good' side exists in any given conflict.

And I rather doubt the logical skills of anyone who could say, with a 
straight face, "Make no mistake, as emperor, Palpatine is a
dictator--but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet."

Pinochet has been called many things, but *benign* is not one of them.

A dictator you can 'do business with' is pretty much the textbook 
definition of 'Facist'.

The main thesis more rationally points to the particular failings of 
*this* Republic that lead to its overthrow, not any inherent failings in 
the republican (the political system, not the party) system as a whole.

*Any* democratic form of government relies on the continued commitment 
of the rulers *and* the ruled (since they're the ones voting) 
maintaining a commitment to maintaining a democratic society, lest it 
turn into an oligarchy or, in this case, a fascist dictatorship.

However, many parallels can be drawn between the transformation of the 
Republic into the Empire in Star Wars and the founding of the Third 
Imperium. Both arose from similar problems; that of maintaining some 
semblance of order in a large sprawling polity.

Cleon was once a Senator, too...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 17:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Jun  4 16:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEAPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEAPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3d1339bd.13801981@post.demon.co.uk>

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:

>The Emperor would have to be
>in a very sorry financial state indeed to be willing to sell a noble =
title
>(and who would have enough money to interest the Emperor, even if he was=
 in
>a sorry financial state?).

That might not be how it works...  sure, the Emperor won't be
interested in the profits from selling one barony - but if he's
selling 10 million baronies to wealthy applicants all over the
Imperium, suddenly the numbers begin to look much more attractive...

That kind of thing happened on Earth, too - in France, you had a
social conflict between the noblesse de l'=E9p=E9e who had inherited =
their
titles, and the noblesse de la robe who bought them, pure and simple.
(the latter were 3I-style "service nobility", in a way, since they
actually received their noble titles as a consequence of holding
certain offices of state - but being appointed to such a position was
no more than a financial transaction.  It was a deliberate method of
raising money by the State without resorting to actual taxation .)


As a side point, as I discovered while putting together my Landgrab of
Vincennes: if you're the absolute ruler of a high-population,
high-technology world then you probably *do* have enough wealth to
interest even an Emperor, and certainly an Archduke:  such as offering
to fit out an entire subsector fleet for the Imperial Navy at your own
expense...  Of course, for that very reason I suspect that most
planetary monarchs have already been given titles of Imperial nobility
as well, although there'll be the inevitable conflicts of interest
(since one of the jobs of the Imperial nobility is supposed to be
keeping the planetary rulers in line).


Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 17:01:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Jun  4 16:01:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Whipsnade's war and the other T
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMENNHIAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMENNHIAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3d144352.16255835@post.demon.co.uk>

John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> writes:

>The nice man from InterStellarms will sell you a data solid or hard copy=
 of
>the 'Big Book of Field Manuals, annotated'.  In addition to details on =
how
>to field strip the Toastmaster 5000 FPMP. this handy compendium has =
details
>on how to conduct anti Armour ambush using IFV's and dismounts (45 of =
'em,
>all commented on and reviewed by experts in the field), as well as how =
to
>assault a trench line when the other side has emplaced heavy machine =
guns --
>hint, the line up your troops and march across the intervening space and=
 try
>to baronet them out technique is a tad expensive in manpower losses.
>
>High tech is a Mercenary's greatest weapon.  That and that he is a lot =
more
>likely to have read and trained using the BBoFMa.

That suggests that wars within the Imperium (and especially between
merc groups) will usually be extremely stylised and bloodless -
similar to the formalised tactics of the 16th-18th centuries.

"See, they have us pinned down according to Situation 37b on page
1025.  According to the analysis, we have only a 17% average chance of
breaking out without unacceptable casualties.  I suggest we
surrender."
"Sure.  It's Johnson in command of the other lot, isn't it?  Call her
up, tell her she's a lucky d.o.b., but she's won this time.  Oh, and
give her my thanks for a good clean fight.  Then activate our
repatriation bonds and let's get out of here."

Problems will only come when the enemy hasn't read the same manual -
or worse, if the mercs' employers haven't read it!

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 17:24:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun  4 16:24:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Marine Brainwashing (Was Re:Picky, picky...)
In-Reply-To: <20020604.124921.-69681.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <B92299F5.5D7D9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/4/02 12:49 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com
wrote:

>> Right.
> 
> Yep, and narry a brain out of step either...
> 
> Double Time, March!
> 
> I wanna be an Airborne Ranger . . .
> 

"I wanna be a forest ranger,
Where the squirrels are the only danger.
I wanna go to Yellowstone..."

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 17:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Jun  4 16:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: The Case for the Empire
In-Reply-To: <3CFD35C8.504@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023234917.2749.ajackson@ping>

Bruce Johnson writes:
> 
> And I rather doubt the logical skills of anyone who could say, with a 
> straight face, "Make no mistake, as emperor, Palpatine is a
> dictator--but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet."

Well, it could just be someone with a really weird concept of benign.  Anyone
who considers blowing up a planet a reasonable response to the population of
the planet being rebellious might well think of Pinochet as reasonable.
> 
> The main thesis more rationally points to the particular failings of 
> *this* Republic that lead to its overthrow, not any inherent failings in 
> the republican (the political system, not the party) system as a whole.

Which was all I was noting in terms of the 'point' the writer had.

> However, many parallels can be drawn between the transformation of the 
> Republic into the Empire in Star Wars and the founding of the Third 
> Imperium. Both arose from similar problems; that of maintaining some 
> semblance of order in a large sprawling polity.

Well, there's many historical examples of power grabs similar to either Cleon
or the Emperor.  All that's really required is opportunity and the wrong person
in the wrong place at the wrong time, though any form of crisis tends to
increase the opportunities.

Frankly, the argument that the Imperium needs a feudal government system due to
problems of command and control is ridiculous.  Yes, you need local government
to deal with local problems, but that doesn't require feudalism, it just
requires a heirarchical government.  It's not hard to design a republican
version of such a government, and there's actually a canonical example.  Other
than the limited citizenship (only Nobles count), the Zhodani government could
easily be considered a republic.

Hm...if the Empress Wave makes people peionic, could Zhodani society survive
the elimination of the proles?  It would result in rather major economic
disruption, but the base government model could survive.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 18:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun  4 17:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Marine Brainwashing (Was Re:Picky, picky...)
Message-ID: <20020604.170115.-108371.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:23:17 -0700 Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> "I wanna be a forest ranger,
> Where the squirrels are the only danger.
> I wanna go to Yellowstone..."

I'm qualified for this job...
Graduate - PCDI 1996
Forestry & Wildlife Conservation

I muchly prefer the California Sierra - Nevada mountain range. :~)

Turokan


..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 18:06:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun  4 17:06:22 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: The Case for the Empire
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1023223433.7419.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20604.171117.9Q9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In any case, the author has a point; the Rebels are not necessarily admirable
> people, nor are they all that likely to create a successful replacement
> government.  This does not, however, make the Empire good; there's no
> requirement that a 'good' side exists in any given conflict.

Which can be a fun lesson to teach overly naive players. <eg>

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a good way to get yourself in
*real* trouble. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 18:38:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Tue Jun  4 17:38:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meat
References: <105.1554bccd.2a09294e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007201c20c29$4c5dbfc0$07d4d63f@customer>

----- Original Message -----
From: <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 8:57 AM
Subject: [TML] Re: Meat


> >(For those that are curious, I've conducted many interesting experiments
on
> >meat including hacking an old beef carcass with a bastard sword, and
> >shooting many hunks of meat.  Quite revealing.
>
> The US Army wound ballistics lab has shot a few thousand pigs over the
years
> . . . they gave Frank a tour of the facility after the Desert Shield
Factbook
> was published (the military LOVED that book).
>
> LKW

That was a great book, I still have my copy.  One of the things I remember
of that time is that the local Mid-east expert used the map board from the
Mid-east game of GDW's WWIII series.  I always thought that was pretty neat.
I wonder if it was his or his kid's.


John Scarlett
-------
About a month late and about 1100 to go.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 18:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Jun  4 17:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whipsnade's war and the other T
In-Reply-To: <3d144352.16255835@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEDIHJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> writes:

>The nice man from InterStellarms will sell you a data solid or hard copy of
>the 'Big Book of Field Manuals, annotated'.  In addition to details on how
>to field strip the Toastmaster 5000 FPMP. this handy compendium has details
>on how to conduct anti Armour ambush using IFV's and dismounts (45 of 'em,
>all commented on and reviewed by experts in the field), as well as how to
>assault a trench line when the other side has emplaced heavy machine
guns --
>hint, the line up your troops and march across the intervening space and
try
>to baronet them out technique is a tad expensive in manpower losses.
>
>High tech is a Mercenary's greatest weapon.  That and that he is a lot more
>likely to have read and trained using the BBoFMa.

That suggests that wars within the Imperium (and especially between
merc groups) will usually be extremely stylised and bloodless -
similar to the formalised tactics of the 16th-18th centuries.

"See, they have us pinned down according to Situation 37b on page
1025.  According to the analysis, we have only a 17% average chance of
breaking out without unacceptable casualties.  I suggest we
surrender."
"Sure.  It's Johnson in command of the other lot, isn't it?  Call her
up, tell her she's a lucky d.o.b., but she's won this time.  Oh, and
give her my thanks for a good clean fight.  Then activate our
repatriation bonds and let's get out of here."

Problems will only come when the enemy hasn't read the same manual -
or worse, if the mercs' employers haven't read it!

Stephen

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yep.  A Merc out in the boonies has no desire to break his grav
tank and so will take care to keep it running. the same applies
to his life.  Accidents. like misreading the 37b as a 23p and
advancing in across a broad front do occur and folks do die, but
still.  Mercing is closer to full contact tit-a-li-winks then
unshielded reactor repair in terms of danger to your own life and
limb,  Indig on indig is the bloodiest and imp on indig is second.
Mercs vs Mercs gets blood mainly on raid when there is little
time to think just react, or if one side is locked into a really bad
contract

When the two sides have different books it can get messy, a la
Sword Worlds and Darriens.

I would suspect if an employer told a merc commander to go to 5000
meters and have his command jump without chutes of some kind, the
reaction would be negative an -- akin to stuffing the orders so
far down the would v=be order giver throat that rectal trouble would
ensue.  And I would suspect the bonding authority rep would go along
merc.  While a tradition of bloodless surrender fails to enhance
 your chance of being hired, Mercs are not fanatics or last ditchers.
IMTU, they are specialists, expert in some niche your army can't fill.
YOu do not hire a Merc company from off world at great expense to serve
as cannon fodder.

jml
specialists


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 19:20:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Jun  4 18:20:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither ISSDEC
Message-ID: <3CFD66A0.5241139C@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage>
>> Anybody know where it is?

>http://pslccl.com/issdec/

>There you go.

Thanks Paul. Truly.

I've just got done voting. I hope it wasn't to late to submit a vote.
In any event, my ship doesn't stand a chance.
Those damn swimming pools. The next ship I design will have a swimming
pool! I should've thought about that. Seaquest DSV in space.

Lots of different designs. Most excellent. I think we have one for every
genre in there. 2xHG2, 1xGT, 1xTNE, 1xT20, 1xMT. 

>Well, would it be better if ISSDEC was a bi-monthly
>(every 2 months) contest?  That would definitely give
>more time, but it would also mean more time between
>new designs and more time to loose interest.

Actually, I could go along with the two month thing.
IIRC, the NPC contest that started last year I think was 4-6 weeks
and a few folks wanted it extended.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
"We do not have a town drunk on Arba. We all take turns."
--sign at local Brubecks

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 19:25:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Jun  4 18:25:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Keyb-Kill update please
Message-ID: <3CFD6796.8BF4ADE8@mail.cswnet.com>

To whomever is in charge of such things:

Since were half way through the year, can we get an update on the
current Keyboard kills, victems and victors, etc.?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 19:59:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Jun  4 18:59:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Marine Brainwashing (Was Re:Picky, picky...)
References: <20020604190107.43D4F279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005101c20c35$0257be60$46b18b90@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
>Anyway, we all know that the United States Infantry is the best..<g, d, r!>

As proven at Buna, Gona, Sanananda, and, of course, Kasserine Pass..  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 19:59:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Jun  4 18:59:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
References: <20020604190107.43D4F279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005a01c20c35$0e3a58a0$46b18b90@computer>

> From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
> The holder of a noble title does not have full rights of alienation.

An interesting historical example of this is the Jacobite claim to the
British throne.

"Henry IX" was a Catholic cardinal who died (childless, of course) in 1800.
He was the last of the direct Jacobite heirs.  Basically, he renounced his
claim to the throne, and returned the bits of royal regalia in his
possession to George III.  Unfortunately, he couldn't actually end the
Jacobite claim to the throne.  He had various cousins and whatnot around,
and they continued to maintain the claim of being the legitimate British
monarchs, despite this claim being completely unrealistic.

Apparently there is still a guy in Germany who as the Jacobite heir,
periodically gets together with his mates and dresses up in Scottish
costume, to celebrate his status as the rightful King of Scotland.

There's actually quite a lot of such ridiculous exiled wannabe monarchs
floating around.   France, of course, has its Bourbon, Orleanist and
Bonapartist heirs.  The Hapsburg heir, at least, has maintained a certain
amount of dignity.  Presumably there would be a Hohenzollern around
somewhere, too, not to mention a Wittelsbach...

OBTRAV:  Hiroshi XXXIII is the legitimate emperor of the Rule of Man.  The
Archduke of Vland is the legitimate emperor of the Ziru Sirka!

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 20:24:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Jun  4 19:24:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Keyboard Kills
Message-ID: <200206050222.HTQ00298@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Looking through the archives from Jan 1 to the present, and 
counting how many people said they were killed, I have

Bruce Johnson as the winner, with a solid 4.  Maybe someone 
else can come up with a more accurate count, but I suffered 
an enormous amount of brain damage after having read the 
entire archive from Jan 1 to the present in one sitting.

There seem to be a fair number of people with 2 or 3 kills.  
There are also a lot of people who write "that was almost a 
kill" and I didn't count those.

I'm not sure how accurate this is, but I think it's close.

John Groth's alternate email address is in the archives.

________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 20:35:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Tue Jun  4 19:35:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Marine Brainwashing (Was Re:Picky, picky...)
References: <20020605020120.09A63279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CFD785F.2E3594E3@mailbag.com>

> From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
> > From: Douglas Berry
> >Anyway, we all know that the United States Infantry is the best..<g, d, r!>
> 
> As proven at Buna, Gona, Sanananda, and, of course, Kasserine Pass..  : )

Nah, can't pin Kasserine on the Infantry. It was us Treadheads that
messed that up. Especially the units sent in with, according to 1AD
mythology, TP rather than AP ammo for the 37mm. Not a great AT weapon by
that late anyway, but even more miserable without a penetrator.
Allegedly they broke and ran when they watched their rounds bounce off
of the Pz III's and IV's. Note, this is not in the official histories...


> Alan Bradley
> abradley1@bigpond.com

William
(Former 1AD tanker - M-60A3TTS forever)

-- 
You better watch out    What you wish for;
It better be worth it   So much to die for.
                                Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 21:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Jun  4 20:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Marine Brainwashing (Was Re:Picky, picky...)
In-Reply-To: <005101c20c35$0257be60$46b18b90@computer>
References: <20020604190107.43D4F279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <005101c20c35$0257be60$46b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <m3elfma08o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:
>
> >Anyway, we all know that the United States Infantry is the
> >best...<g, d, r!>
> 
> As proven at Buna, Gona, Sanananda, and, of course, Kasserine
> Pass...

And the Eigth Army in Korea...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos harjav i merelotz!  Orhniale harutjun Christosi!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 21:15:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Jun  4 20:15:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Marine Brainwashing (Was Re:Picky, picky...)
In-Reply-To: <m3elfma08o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <20020604190107.43D4F279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <005101c20c35$0257be60$46b18b90@computer>
 <m3elfma08o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <m3adqaa02c.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) writes:
> 
> And the Eigth Army in Korea...

Eighth.  Sigh;-(

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos anesti ek nekron    |  Christ is risen from the dead
Thanato thanaton patisas     |  Trampling down death by death
Kai tis en tis mnimasi       |  And upon those in the tombs
Zoin charisamenos            |  Bestowing life

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun  4 22:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Jun  4 21:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Whipsnade's war and the other T
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEDIHJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEEFHJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Believe it or not I sent this out at 5:35 and it is now 9:12 and I haven't
seen it come through here, my apologies if this is a repeat

-----Original Message-----
From: John-Martin [mailto:jmlotzn1@pacbell.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 5:35 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Whipsnade's war and the other T



John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> writes:

>The nice man from InterStellarms will sell you a data solid or hard copy of
>the 'Big Book of Field Manuals, annotated'.  In addition to details on how
>to field strip the Toastmaster 5000 FPMP. this handy compendium has details
>on how to conduct anti Armour ambush using IFV's and dismounts (45 of 'em,
>all commented on and reviewed by experts in the field), as well as how to
>assault a trench line when the other side has emplaced heavy machine
guns --
>hint, the line up your troops and march across the intervening space and
try
>to baronet them out technique is a tad expensive in manpower losses.
>
>High tech is a Mercenary's greatest weapon.  That and that he is a lot more
>likely to have read and trained using the BBoFMa.

That suggests that wars within the Imperium (and especially between
merc groups) will usually be extremely stylised and bloodless -
similar to the formalised tactics of the 16th-18th centuries.

"See, they have us pinned down according to Situation 37b on page
1025.  According to the analysis, we have only a 17% average chance of
breaking out without unacceptable casualties.  I suggest we
surrender."
"Sure.  It's Johnson in command of the other lot, isn't it?  Call her
up, tell her she's a lucky d.o.b., but she's won this time.  Oh, and
give her my thanks for a good clean fight.  Then activate our
repatriation bonds and let's get out of here."

Problems will only come when the enemy hasn't read the same manual -
or worse, if the mercs' employers haven't read it!

Stephen

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yep.  A Merc out in the boonies has no desire to break his grav
tank and so will take care to keep it running. the same applies
to his life.  Accidents. like misreading the 37b as a 23p and
advancing in across a broad front do occur and folks do die, but
still.  Mercing is closer to full contact tit-a-li-winks then
unshielded reactor repair in terms of danger to your own life and
limb,  Indig on indig is the bloodiest and imp on indig is second.
Mercs vs Mercs gets blood mainly on raid when there is little
time to think just react, or if one side is locked into a really bad
contract

When the two sides have different books it can get messy, a la
Sword Worlds and Darriens.

I would suspect if an employer told a merc commander to go to 5000
meters and have his command jump without chutes of some kind, the
reaction would be negative an -- akin to stuffing the orders so
far down the would v=be order giver throat that rectal trouble would
ensue.  And I would suspect the bonding authority rep would go along
merc.  While a tradition of bloodless surrender fails to enhance
 your chance of being hired, Mercs are not fanatics or last ditchers.
IMTU, they are specialists, expert in some niche your army can't fill.
YOu do not hire a Merc company from off world at great expense to serve
as cannon fodder.

jml
specialists


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 00:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Tue Jun  4 23:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: The Case for the Empire
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1023223433.7419.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHOEGLDPAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

The Rebels taking over is like the Solomani victory over the Vilani.  Hey!
Lucas stole from Traveller!

Justin

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Anthony Jackson
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 1:44 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Cc: TML
Subject: Re: [TML] OT: The Case for the Empire


It might have been easier to get a pointer to a URL, I've seen this on the
WWW
before.

In any case, the author has a point; the Rebels are not necessarily
admirable
people, nor are they all that likely to create a successful replacement
government.  This does not, however, make the Empire good; there's no
requirement that a 'good' side exists in any given conflict.
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 06:33:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antti Lahtinen)
Date: Wed Jun  5 05:33:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020605152542.00bcdd20@ee.tut.fi>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

 > IIRC, the liners are either copper or a copper alloy?

         Copper appears to be the most common material for shaped charge
         liners. Some modern shaped charges are using aluminum or
         magnesium liners. AL liner has proved to be very effective,
         since it allows similar penetration performance as copper, but
         the penetrator itself becomes explosive after it has penetrated
         the armor. After the superplastic penetrator jet has been pushed
         through the armor, the AL particles begin to burn with the air
         at the other side of the armor. In other words, the penetrator
         jet becomes a fuel-air explosive which explodes inside the
         target.

         This effect is known as "behind-armor blast".

         When copper liner is being used, the behind-armor effect is
         caused by high-velocity fragments (pieces of liner and armor)
         and hot explosion gases. In some warheads the penetrator jet
         has been so narrow and focused that it had blowed bottlecap-
         sized holes through both sides of an APC, doing very little
         damage inside the vehicle. The AL liner replaces part of the
         fragment effect with explosion.

         Another modification is to place a zirconium ring around the
         shaped charge (this technique is also used with explosion-formed
         penetrator warheads). The explosion of the main charge breaks
         the zirconium into small particles which may ignite any
         surrounding material (zirconium is pyrophoric).


-- 
         Antti Lahtinen          antti.lahtinen@tut.fi
         MSc(Eng), researcher    http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 06:34:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Jun  5 05:34:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Stranded on Arden (private mail)
Message-ID: <179ce17f08.17f08179ce@student.liu.se>

Sorry for posting this to the entire list, but my reconfiguration of my home PC went wrong. No files lost or anything, but Windows didn't work properly, forcing me to wait with the installation of Linux, which I need in order to access my saved mail. Which means I do not know the address of the person who requested this.

Anyway...

The first two pages of "Stranded on Arden" are now scanned and placed on the web at:

http://www-und.ida.liu.se/~jenry023/arden/



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 07:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Jun  5 06:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Marine Brainwashing (Was Re:Picky, picky...)
Message-ID: <3CFE1102.B928AE62@mail.cswnet.com>

<<<snippage from various sources>>>
>>Anyway, we all know that the United States Infantry is the best..
>><g,d,r!>
>
>As proven at Buna, Gona, Sanananda, and, of course, Kasserine Pass.. 

...not to mention the little intermural bout at Fredericksburg...

Army General: "Lets charge that wall in the center going UPHILL"
Army soldier: "Yes sir. Sounds like a plan sir."

>>The Air Force?  You mean the bus drivers, right? 

Yeah, thats right. The bus drivers flying the Spectre gunships that you
"gods of land warfare" always call for when you get in trouble.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
"gods of land warfare"  Oh man, ha ha, it is to laugh.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 07:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jun  5 06:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TCS like web-game looking for a good home
Message-ID: <OF94CC85F4.565070A9-ON85256BCF.0049AFFE@lotus.com>

Hiya Folks,
      I asked for alpha testers of a Traveller Inspired on-line TCS like
ship design and combat game in January. I got a few, but none of them gave
me any feedback. So I'm offering it up here if anyone wants to take it and
host it as a value-added thing on their website. It's a J2EE app developed
under Apache, but any web server that is J2EE compliant should be able to
serve it up. Older version of JSP may work too, with a little tweaking.
      In a nutshell, there are three design elements. First you can design
ships. I'm afraid it is even simpler than Book-2, it's more like designing
chits for a wargame like Imperium. Then you design fleets. These are groups
of ships with a common battle tactics. Lastly administrators can design
leagues. These are, essentially entry criteria for fleets to enter.
      The gameplay is that users can design ships and fleets. When a design
is "unlocked" you can play around with it, edit it, and test fight your
fleets against your other fleets or any locked fleets from other players.
When you have locked a fleet (of which all ship designs must be locked) you
can then enter it into any league whose criteria it meets. All the entered
fleets in the league fight it out in a ladder, run every ten minutes. If
you've got a good fleet, that fleet will work its way up to the top of the
ladder.
      If you want to have a look it is currently running on my home
machine. It is presently http://141.154.207.236:81/arbellatra/index.html
but subject to ip change without notice. If you go to
http://www.solstation.com/jaymin/home.htm there is a redirect to whatever
the ip happens to be and you can pick the Arbellatra link to get to the
same place.
      Have a look. Give feedback if you like. And let me know if you want
to host it.
            Cheers,
                  Jo



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 08:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Wed Jun  5 07:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Marine Brainwashing (Was Re:Picky, picky...)
Message-ID: <F147OAkK5LqN33HFnwp00005e12@hotmail.com>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>
>Anyway, we all know that the United States Infantry is the best.. <g, d, 
>r!>


Best at <grinning, ducking, and running?>?  I always thought that was what 
the army specialized in, but thanks for the confirmation!

Greg

USMC




Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 08:19:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed Jun  5 07:19:09 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: The Case for the Empire
In-Reply-To: <20020604202707.84861.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020605141805.47369.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

Well, a URL would have been OK (as someone else
pointed out), but thanks for posting.  I for one had
never read this, and found it interesting (save a few
problems).  Plus, I learned two new words :) (You
gotta love a place where you can have philosophical
discussions about science fiction and learn new words
as well.)

I think one part left out is that IIRC originally
Lucas planned for 9 installments and sometime between
V and VI decided to opt it down to VI.  That is why
some things don't make too much sense in VI.  From
what I've heard (granted it is a rumor), eps VII to IX
were going to follow Luke being converted to the dark
side and then the eventual victory of the Rebels. 
Yes, it is hearsay, but the point of the story then
changes somewhat.  I think the point is intended to be
that "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts
absolutely."  That's my 0.02Cr.

As an aside, the aritcle said...

> The Empire runs academies throughout the 
> galaxy (Han Solo begins his career at an 
> Imperial academy), and those who show promise 
> are promoted, often rapidly.

...and...

> When he captures Solo, he calls him "Captain 
> Solo."  (Whether this is in deference to 
> Han's former rank in the Imperial starfleet, 
> or simply because Han owns and pilots his own 
> ship, we don't know. I suspect it's the 
> former.)

First, the fact of Solo's prior career with the Empire
cannot be established withouth goin out of the bounds
of the five movies, something the author said he
wouldn't do.  Second, if you allow this to be
included, then the reason Solo left the Empire needs
to be considered as well.  IIRC, the Empire was in the
process of taking Wookie slaves (Chewie being one) and
Solo objected on a moral basis.  Solo frees Chewie at
least and the life debt follows along with the career
on the run.  The important point is that from the
moral perspective the article takes.  The conclusion,
as has already been said, is that there are no good
guys.


Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 08:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed Jun  5 07:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither ISSDEC
In-Reply-To: <3CFD66A0.5241139C@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20020605142515.71497.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> wrote:
> I've just got done voting. I hope it wasn't to late
> to submit a vote.

Not too late.  I'll keep the voting open until I get
at least 5 votes.  Right now, I have 2 (yours and
mine).

Sophonts, as you are able, please visit and vote:

www.pslccl.com/issdec

Go ahead, make my day!

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 08:28:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed Jun  5 07:28:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #568 - 19 msgs
Message-ID: <F97wIvzv9N2i3Xxu1IJ00016de5@hotmail.com>

In Digest 568, Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com> proposed:

<<SNIP>>
(imagine if a Free Trader had kept an eye on the Japanese fleet in December 
1941).
<<UNSNIP>>

There was a film with pretty much this idea as its theme, except (IIRC) it 
was the day before Pearl Harbour - an American aircraft carrier (USS 
Nimitz?) gets caught in a time warp and sent back to whichever day it was, 
and the crew have to decide if they should intervene or not - E2C Hawkeye 
early warning aircraft and F14 Tomcats against the Japanese Mitsubishi- and 
Nakajima-built aircraft...
Unfortunately I cannot remember the name of the film, but I do recall the 
rather entertaining (if a little obvious) twist at the end...

ObTrav: More of an ObDLW, how sensitive are the high-tech missiles?[1]  Does 
a dirigible give off enough heat for the infra-red seeker to pick up?  And, 
you can make a fairly reasonable glider with wood and fabric - "How 
low(tech) can you go" and produce aircraft?  Mebbe carry a glider up a few 
hundred feet with a ballon, then release...

Jeff (Rowse.  I am the one, the only one.  And aren't y'all glad??)
[1]I don't think anyone else has mentioned these being available, but just 
in case :-)

"I don't care what you call it - it still tastes like chicken!"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 08:39:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed Jun  5 07:39:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Apologies
Message-ID: <F76ZwqFWA08DyD9gste00016e0f@hotmail.com>

Ladles and Jellyspoons, I throw myself upon your tender mercies[1].  I 
*know* I forgot to change the title of my last missive to the TML, and I 
have this horrible suspicion that I forgot to delete a large chunk of Digest 
568(?) from the bottom of it as well.
So, if you subscribe to the 'single email' TML and you get an unusually 
large post with "re: Digest..." in it, it's all my fault!

Please excuse me whilst I go and hide under a large rock. :-(

Jeff (Rowse.  Thankfully, still unique.  Especially if I *did* leave the 
rest of the Digest there...)

[1]um, they taste quite nice.  Ever thought of marketing them?

"Pikathulhu - use your non-Euclidian rectangle attack!"

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 09:09:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Jun  5 08:09:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Marine Brainwashing (Was Re:Picky, picky...)
In-Reply-To: <F147OAkK5LqN33HFnwp00005e12@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020605074454.009f7d90@mindspring.com>

At 02:00 PM 6/5/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Best at <grinning, ducking, and running?>?  I always thought that was what 
>the army specialized in, but thanks for the confirmation!

Grenade, drop, reload!

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 09:09:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Jun  5 08:09:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #568 - 19 msgs
In-Reply-To: <F97wIvzv9N2i3Xxu1IJ00016de5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020605075020.009f3190@mindspring.com>

At 02:27 PM 6/5/02 +0000, you wrote:
>There was a film with pretty much this idea as its theme, except (IIRC) it 
>was the day before Pearl Harbour - an American aircraft carrier (USS 
>Nimitz?) gets caught in a time warp and sent back to whichever day it was, 
>and the crew have to decide if they should intervene or not - E2C Hawkeye 
>early warning aircraft and F14 Tomcats against the Japanese Mitsubishi- 
>and Nakajima-built aircraft...
>Unfortunately I cannot remember the name of the film, but I do recall the 
>rather entertaining (if a little obvious) twist at the end...

"The Final Countdown."  I have the poster up in the hallway. The date was 
December 6th, 1941, the day before the attack.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
                             - Rose Platt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 09:36:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Jun  5 08:36:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #568 - 19 msgs
Message-ID: <200206051533.HUQ02431@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Jeff Rowse" asks
>ObTrav: More of an ObDLW, how sensitive are the high-tech 
>missiles?[1]  Does a dirigible give off enough heat for the 
>infra-red seeker to pick up?

Earlier IR homing missiles home in on exhaust heat.  Some of 
the latest models are tuned to a different IR band - the one 
that the skin of the aircraft gives off - it's nearly 
impossible to use flares to distract this type.  Some of the 
latest IR jammers use a IR band laser tuned to the probable 
threat to throw the missile off track.

I would bet that a dirigible could be hit by the more modern 
IR homing missiles.  Dirigibles also have high powered piston 
engines, that have hot exhaust of their own.  If you didn't 
do anything to cool the exhaust, the older IR models might be 
able to hit you in the engine.

I've always wondered about what I call the "tech window" in a 
Traveller Universe.  How many navies in the Imperium are 
actually going to run around in TL 10 ships?  Do any navies 
today field a whole navy of pre-TL 6 ships?  Most of the 
countries that don't have the technology to build a modern 
missile corvette buy them.  It's a bit harder to get 
something like a submarine.  In the Traveller universe, I 
would think that there would be big business in selling 
slightly less capable yet fairly modern vessels to real 
backwater planets that were willing to waste money.  You 
would rapidly put lower tech yards out of business, 
especially if you were selling hardware/ships that had a 
reputation for winning.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 09:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ramspite)
Date: Wed Jun  5 08:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #568 - 19 msgs
References: <F97wIvzv9N2i3Xxu1IJ00016de5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c20c7c$a5de9120$0200a8c0@mshome.net>

> There was a film with pretty much this idea as its theme, except (IIRC) it
> was the day before Pearl Harbour - an American aircraft carrier (USS
> Nimitz?) gets caught in a time warp and sent back to whichever day it was,
> and the crew have to decide if they should intervene or not - E2C Hawkeye
> early warning aircraft and F14 Tomcats against the Japanese Mitsubishi-
and
> Nakajima-built aircraft...
> Unfortunately I cannot remember the name of the film, but I do recall the
> rather entertaining (if a little obvious) twist at the end...
>
The Final Countdown with Kirk Douglas and Martin Sheen. (1980).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 10:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun  5 09:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <F97wIvzv9N2i3Xxu1IJ00016de5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20605.090725.5L7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> There was a film with pretty much this idea as its theme, except (IIRC) it 
> was the day before Pearl Harbour - an American aircraft carrier (USS 
> Nimitz?) gets caught in a time warp and sent back to whichever day it was, 
> and the crew have to decide if they should intervene or not - E2C Hawkeye 
> early warning aircraft and F14 Tomcats against the Japanese Mitsubishi- and 
> Nakajima-built aircraft...
> Unfortunately I cannot remember the name of the film, but I do recall the 
> rather entertaining (if a little obvious) twist at the end...

"The Final Conflict"

And it was indeed the Nimitz.

> ObTrav: More of an ObDLW, how sensitive are the high-tech missiles?[1]  Does 
> a dirigible give off enough heat for the infra-red seeker to pick up?  And, 
> you can make a fairly reasonable glider with wood and fabric - "How 
> low(tech) can you go" and produce aircraft?  Mebbe carry a glider up a few 
> hundred feet with a ballon, then release...

Dean McLaughlin wrote a story in the early to mid 60s called "Hawk
among the Sparrows" that had a supersonic fighter get tossed back to
WWI. It was published in Analog, and was the cover story that month. 

Getting enough kerosene to fuel it (and trying to filter it well
enough) was a major problem.

Then he discovered that the biplanes didn't give off enough heat for
the IR seekers, nor did they have enough metal in them for the radar.

He *did* destroy some planes, but I won't spoil the surprise as to
*how* he did so.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 11:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
References: <20605.090725.5L7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c20cb4$75468e40$ade793c3@martinjd>

----- > 
> He *did* destroy some planes, but I won't spoil the surprise as to
> *how* he did so.

I'd imagine that just flying past at speed would do the trick...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 11:06:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:06:42 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20605.090725.5L7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B9239300.5D936%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/5/02 10:07 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

> 
> Then he discovered that the biplanes didn't give off enough heat for
> the IR seekers, nor did they have enough metal in them for the radar.
> 
> He *did* destroy some planes, but I won't spoil the surprise as to
> *how* he did so.

I'd assume that guns would do the job, not to mention jetwash.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 11:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Strebe)
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:14:04 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
References: <20605.090725.5L7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <000a01c20cb4$75468e40$ade793c3@martinjd>
Message-ID: <02Jun5.103316pdt.119143@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>

Which is how he did it if, I remember correctly
by flying by at supersonic speeds

Dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] hi tech versus low tech


> 
> ----- > 
> > He *did* destroy some planes, but I won't spoil the surprise as to
> > *how* he did so.
> 
> I'd imagine that just flying past at speed would do the trick...
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 11:15:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:15:07 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
References: <B9239300.5D936%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CFE46F0.7020804@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> on 6/5/02 10:07 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
> 
> 
>>Then he discovered that the biplanes didn't give off enough heat for
>>the IR seekers, nor did they have enough metal in them for the radar.
>>
>>He *did* destroy some planes, but I won't spoil the surprise as to
>>*how* he did so.
> 
> 
> I'd assume that guns would do the job, not to mention jetwash.


Nope. No guns...in fact he has an amusing time trying to convince the 
skeptical French airplane mechanics (who already think he's just plain 
loopy for using *cooking* fuel for his fine aeroplane) that mounting 
external machine guns on a mach3 fighter isn't a good idea.

The plane as described is, essentially, a YF-12 , which in the end 
became the SR-71. They couldn't mount guns on that one, either...


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 11:22:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:22:09 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <3CFE46F0.7020804@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <B92396AD.5D94C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/5/02 10:14 AM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:

> 
> Nope. No guns...in fact he has an amusing time trying to convince the
> skeptical French airplane mechanics (who already think he's just plain
> loopy for using *cooking* fuel for his fine aeroplane) that mounting
> external machine guns on a mach3 fighter isn't a good idea.
> 
> The plane as described is, essentially, a YF-12 , which in the end
> became the SR-71. They couldn't mount guns on that one, either...
> 

But the YF-12/SR-71 doesn't use kerosene for fuel.  It uses JP-10 IIRC.
Plus a fuel sensitizer.  The aircraft skin gets too hot to use conventional
aviation fuel.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 17:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jun  5 16:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ping
Message-ID: <3CFE5E40.5426.16E7861@localhost>

Hi there all

Are we up and running or is the TML down.  

Tim Reynolds

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 17:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Jun  5 16:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pong  RE: Ping
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C37B1@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Seems to be up, just somewhat slow.
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: timothyreynolds@earthlink.net
[mailto:timothyreynolds@earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 4:54 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Ping


Hi there all

Are we up and running or is the TML down.  

Tim Reynolds

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 18:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jun  5 17:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with space
Message-ID: <3CFE61A2.27165.17BB0AC@localhost>

Actually I have not written becomes I am working on some more 
landgrab stuff.  Now  I do not understand how to do the orbits of 
moons.  Can some one help me out?  Which rules system has the 
best methods?  What other stuff along these lines need to be on a 
landgrab?

Help I am lost in space

Tim Reynolds

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 19:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Jun  5 18:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
Message-ID: <F209IjxGq01wLMLCkgC00014efb@hotmail.com>

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

     "And it was indeed the Nimitz."


Mr. Erickson,

     Also making a cameo in that flick was my own beloved, twin-screwed, 
torpedo and cruise missile catcher, the Pigboat(1), aka USS California 
CGN-36.
     During the scene in which the carrier passes through the time travel 
vortex, the "destoyers" (actually two cruisers) are told to run away and 
save themselves.  If you put down your beer long enough, you can glimpse the 
hull number 36 on one of them.  That was the Pigboat.
     The Pig, and all her sister nuc cruisers, are little more than floating 
hulks permanently moored at a few naval shipyards.  With their cores, 
weapons, superstructures, and other goodies removed, the nine nucs are 
slowly being recycled into razor blades.
     I'm getting positively elderly.  I served aboard two ships and they've 
both been scrapped.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

(1)  Our ship's ballcap featured a "golden grizzly", that being the state 
animal of California(2).  Unfortunately, the silhouette resembled a large 
boar at only a few yards distance.

(2)  State animal yes, but none have been seen in California since the first 
McKinley administration.


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 20:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Jun  5 19:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT Heard on the news
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEIGHJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I heard this on the news. Some Colonel got suspended 
for being disrespectful to Bush.  Something about writing
a letter to the editor I think they said. Hell, if not 
showing respect to the Commander in Chief was grounds 
for getting you in trouble, based on folks in the military I know,
we would have finished Carters term in office with a reinforced
platoon under colors.

jml

_____________
my other computer runs BSD
and another, Mac OS 9, and 
another NT, and .....
you get the idea

jml
jmlotzn1@pacbell.net
_________________

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 20:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Jun  5 19:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT Heard on the news
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEIGHJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEIIHJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

And yes I mean Carter. Military types tend to froth 
at the mouth at his mane for all he was ex Navy,

Now WJ Clinton, on the gripping hand, probably would have left a
few more.  The Folks I know seemed to feel he was at least aware of 
real politic if mayhaps a tad randy.


jml
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I heard this on the news. Some Colonel got suspended 
for being disrespectful to Bush.  Something about writing
a letter to the editor I think they said. Hell, if not 
showing respect to the Commander in Chief was grounds 
for getting you in trouble, based on folks in the military I know,
we would have finished Carters term in office with a reinforced
platoon under colors.

jml

_____________
my other computer runs BSD
and another, Mac OS 9, and 
another NT, and .....
you get the idea

jml
jmlotzn1@pacbell.net
_________________
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 20:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Jun  5 19:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <F209IjxGq01wLMLCkgC00014efb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEIJHJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

:
:
:

     The Pig, and all her sister nuc cruisers, are little more than floating
hulks permanently moored at a few naval shipyards.  With their cores,
weapons, superstructures, and other goodies removed, the nine nucs are
slowly being recycled into razor blades.
:
:
:
Razor blade?  Well I guess the irradiation keeps you from needing to power
the thing.

OB Trav:

We have never really decided how long Naval ships last in Traveller. There
was a story by H beam Piper, Cosmic Computer? where the army left everything
behind and the local made a living scavenging the leftovers,  Including as I
recall a moon that was positively littered with ships and contra grav tanks.

The ordinary yards at a depot must be immmpressive sights.

jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 20:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Wed Jun  5 19:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with space
References: <3CFE61A2.27165.17BB0AC@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CFF70EA.D7606962@mindspring.com>

timothyreynolds@earthlink.net wrote:

> Actually I have not written becomes I am working on some more
> landgrab stuff.  Now  I do not understand how to do the orbits of
> moons.  Can some one help me out?  Which rules system has the
> best methods?  What other stuff along these lines need to be on a
> landgrab?
>
> Help I am lost in space
>
> Tim Reynolds
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From: Glisten Autonomous Security Service (GASS)
To: Tim Reynolds, Landgrabber
Re: Moons and Orbits

Book 6 Scouts has a pretty good method for detailing a system. And the
young folks are talking about this new fangled GURPS, First in, I think.
The easiest thing I've used is Heaven and Earth, a program for detailing
systems. It will generate a complete system with animal encounters,
NPC's, cargo, weather, planetary maps and geophysical data. If you use
CT or MT I highly reccomend it. I have no experience with the other
systems and have a faint suspicion that they are figments of unbalanced
minds.



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
So when George Bailey got his life back and the normal universe was
restored, what happened to those angels who got their wings when the
bar cash register rang in the alternate universe in which George was
never born?
-Unknown



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 20:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Jun  5 19:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <F209IjxGq01wLMLCkgC00014efb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEIKHJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Hmmm,

Interesting point, the Nimitz is what -- 1 and half maybe 2 max  --TL's
ahead of the
the temporal natives, and could by it's lonesome, without any historical
pre-knowledge, could rip a bloody hole through the combined navies of the
era


On another list someone claims a modern Combined Arms Battalion could
probably beat
either side at Krusk.  He claims that this was actuallly war gamed at Ft
Benning

Recalling that both the Higher and lower Tech forces have benefited from
long
period of maturation and cross-fertilization does it sound fair that a TL
approximately
10 to 100 times the lethality.

jml

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

     "And it was indeed the Nimitz."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 20:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Jun  5 19:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
Message-ID: <200206060247.HVM03069@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'm not sure that tech level differences are modelled 
correctly in the various incarnations of Traveller, or even 
in the supposed Army models mentioned in a previous post.

For certain arenas, such as air combat, a tech level 
difference can mean that one entire opposing side can be 
eliminated for the cost of normal operational (mechanical 
failure, weather, accident) losses.

It's getting that way with certain armored vehicles.  The 
sight of an M1A2 with a penetrator from a 125mm Rapira 
smoothbore sticking out of side - no internal penetration, no 
real damage (cosmetic - it was brought for repair to take it 
out of the hull).  The firing distance was less than 300 
meters.  A side hit on an armored vehicle.

I really think that tech level differences from about TL 9 on 
up for vehicles in combat (ground, air, space) should mean a 
99/01 lethality difference in direct engagements.  Not a 
slow, gradual, slight improvement from level to level.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 20:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Maksim-Smelchak)
Date: Wed Jun  5 19:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Left the military because of Clinton...
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEIIHJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPOEDNDMAA.max200@lanset.com>

I left the military because of Clinton...

He screwed over our veterans, Korea, Vietnam, W.W.I.I., you name it...

He also got us involved in some distinctively non-military missions that we
would have been better off never touching.

On the other hand, he would make a GREAT corrupt planetary governor for some
sci-fi setting!

Cheers,
Maksim-Smelchak.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John-Martin
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 7:03 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] OT Heard on the news
And yes I mean Carter. Military types tend to froth at the mouth at his mane
for all he was ex Navy.

Now WJ Clinton, on the gripping hand, probably would have left a few more.
The Folks I know seemed to feel he was at least aware of real politic if
mayhaps a tad randy.
jml
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 21:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Jun  5 20:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with space
In-Reply-To: <3CFF70EA.D7606962@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020606032124.2BBB8279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/06/02 at 10:25 AM,  alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com> said:

>timothyreynolds@earthlink.net wrote:

>> Actually I have not written becomes I am working on some more
>> landgrab stuff.  Now  I do not understand how to do the orbits of
>> moons.  Can some one help me out?  Which rules system has the
>> best methods?  What other stuff along these lines need to be on a
>> landgrab?

>think. The easiest thing I've used is Heaven and Earth, a program for
>detailing systems. It will generate a complete system with animal
>encounters, NPC's, cargo, weather, planetary maps and geophysical
>data. If you use CT or MT I highly reccomend it. I have no experience
>with the other systems and have a faint suspicion that they are
>figments of unbalanced minds.

I second Alan's recommendation concerning Heaven & Earth. It does a
good job of system and world generation. The latest beta allows
editing the data and world maps it generates. It doesn't yet, but
Stuart is slowly working toward having changes in one piece of data
carry over into automatic changes in all other data.

I recommend going to HEMailingList on yahoogroups and joining, or at
least downloading the program from the files section. If you do,
you'll need to download and install the last complete version, 1.04,
and then you can download the latest beta.

Eris 
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 23:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Jun  5 22:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <3CFF70EA.D7606962@mindspring.com>
References: <3CFE61A2.27165.17BB0AC@localhost>
 <3CFF70EA.D7606962@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3ofep7z7f.fsf_-_@latakia.dyndns.org>

alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> The easiest thing I've used is Heaven and Earth, a program for
> detailing systems. It will generate a complete system with animal
> encounters, NPC's, cargo, weather, planetary maps and geophysical
> data.

For those who wish a) a more hands-on experience and b) free software,
there's travtrack and travlib.  travlib provides one the ability to
represent Traveller data and manipulate it in Scheme; travtrack
provides one the ability to manipulate it in a GUI.  Unfortunately
they are currently being developed, so you'd have to put in some work
to actually use either one (rather more for travtrack than for
travlib; the former is being actively written while the latter is
essentially stable).

The website is <http://travtrack.sf.net/>.  I just released travlib
0.6.3, which features a _greatly_ improved handling of various
attributes.  Enumerations follow the gtk+ standard.  The Rankine scale
(more accurate than Kelvin) is used throughout.  Various oddities have
been cleaned up.

The CVS version (0.6.4a) includes object IDs, which I have found to be
essential.

> I have no experience with the other systems and have a faint
> suspicion that they are figments of unbalanced minds.

travlib/travtrack, at least, are not.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Resurrexit!  Vere Resurrexit!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 23:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Jun  5 22:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <F209IjxGq01wLMLCkgC00014efb@hotmail.com>
References: <F209IjxGq01wLMLCkgC00014efb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3k7pd7z46.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> I'm getting positively elderly.  I served aboard two ships and
> they've both been scrapped.

My old man has two Navy-related occasions upon which he has felt old.
One was when one of his classmates made captain (`we're not old enough
to be captains--they're old, and remote, and have no sense of
humour!').  The other was when his favourite ship was sold to the
Turks.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Eybershter undzer iz geshtanen!  Avade er iz ufgeshtanen!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun  5 23:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Jun  5 22:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Left the military because of Clinton...
In-Reply-To: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPOEDNDMAA.max200@lanset.com>
References: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPOEDNDMAA.max200@lanset.com>
Message-ID: <m3g0017yz4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Maksim-Smelchak" <max200@lanset.com> writes:
> 
> He screwed over our veterans, Korea, Vietnam, W.W.I.I., you name
> it...

I, personally, loved the bit when he addressed the veterans and they
turned their backs to him.

> He also got us involved in some distinctively non-military missions
> that we would have been better off never touching.

The difference between Republicans and Democrats: Dems get us involved
in hare-brained silly schemes; Republicans get us involved in slightly
less hare-brained schemes and feel vaguely bad about it later.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos harjav i merelotz!  Orhniale harutjun Christosi!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 01:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Jun  6 00:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <m3g0017yz4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPOEDNDMAA.max200@lanset.com>
 <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPOEDNDMAA.max200@lanset.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020606020708.0094f100@minn.net>

Is it okay to pass along qoutes from STAR TREK novels?

For example:

"Oh, do sit down, Riker, you're not impressing anyone with your manly
posing. Except maybe
the counselor, that is, and even she can see right through you."

  Q, Q-SPACE, by Greg Cox.



=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 02:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Jun  6 01:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
References: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPOEDNDMAA.max200@lanset.com><MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPOEDNDMAA.max200@lanset.com> <3.0.6.32.20020606020708.0094f100@minn.net>
Message-ID: <003f01c20d35$60241380$d1ea93c3@martinjd>

> Is it okay to pass along qoutes from STAR TREK novels?

Why would you want to?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 04:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Thu Jun  6 03:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Yet Another T4 Problem?
Message-ID: <81eufukinefpib8ila5h3hvlji2ajh1322@4ax.com>

Somebody wrote to Freelance Traveller:

>Which is correct, the T4 rulebook or Starships rules for drive stats?
>A 400-ton ship with 4g & Heplar drives uses 42.9 tons of fuel for 20
>hours in T4 rulebook or 200 cubic meters per hour in the Starships
>supplement (and is several times as large, too).

Someone have an answer?  Come to think of it, has the questioner mixed up
two versions of Traveller?  I don't seem to remember HEPlaR being in T4,
only in TNE.


Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 05:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Jun  6 04:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Yet Another T4 Problem?
In-Reply-To: <81eufukinefpib8ila5h3hvlji2ajh1322@4ax.com>
References: <81eufukinefpib8ila5h3hvlji2ajh1322@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020606210248.A5375@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> Somebody wrote to Freelance Traveller:
> 
> >Which is correct, the T4 rulebook or Starships rules for drive stats?
> >A 400-ton ship with 4g & Heplar drives uses 42.9 tons of fuel for 20
> >hours in T4 rulebook or 200 cubic meters per hour in the Starships
> >supplement (and is several times as large, too).

Never having even seen either rulebook, I'll chip in with my 0.02
CrImp anyway :)

The former set of figures give an exhaust velocity greater than the
speed of light for a moderate ship density.  So my guess would be that
those figures are wrong.

The latter look more reasonable.  Still insanely high, but at least
not grossly unphysical :) However, even for those figures the ship
must be very low in density to match what other posters have derived
for HEPlaR exhaust velocities.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 06:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun  6 05:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT Heard on the news
Message-ID: <20020606.082133.-281439.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Wed, 05 Jun 2002 18:54:21 -0700 John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
writes:
> I heard this on the news. Some Colonel got suspended 
> for being disrespectful to Bush.  Something about writing
> a letter to the editor I think they said. Hell, if not 
> showing respect to the Commander in Chief was grounds 
> for getting you in trouble, based on folks in the military I know,
> we would have finished Carters term in office with a reinforced
> platoon under colors.

From what I understand, it wasn't that he was suspended for simply being
'disrespectful' - in effect, he stated that a superior officer (the
commander-in-chief) had knowingly allowed thousands of American citizens
to be murdered without doing anything to stop it.  That's the sort of
accusation you need hard evidence to back up; simply making such claims
in a public forum without any evidence is likely to get a military
officer canned.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 06:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Jun  6 05:40:02 2002
Subject: Counties (was: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #570 - 23 msgs)
References: <20020604032307.4885D279BF@mail.travellercentral.com> <911pfucp8mp4mcdtmui5md87lhd7lek8ek@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <000701c20d57$90c8f4c0$d300a8c0@imogen>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> Norris Aella Aledon is Archduke Deneb (in the Assassination
> timeline), Duke of Regina, Count Aledon, Marquis of Regina,
> Baron Yori.

I've often wondered about the County of Aledon (and  counties  in
general).  IMTU I have had the Duchy of Regina divided up into  6
counties ... but it can be a bit awkward confining county borders
to subsector boundaries.  This  raises  the  question  about  how
close do *duchy* borders conform  to  subsector  boundaries.  And
Counties don't seen to feature heavily in canon  sources  despite
their apparent stature.

A non-canon suggestion: at the moment both subsectors and sectors
are controlled by Dukes.  Maybe subsectors should  be  controlled
by Counts.  (Thus Norris would  be  Archduke  of  the  Domain  of
Deneb, Duke of the Spinward Marches sector, Count of  the  Regina
Subsector, and Marquis of Regina system ... as well as  Baron  of
the Yori system.)

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 06:40:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Jun  6 05:40:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Nobility
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206042159250.31383-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <000a01c20d57$91edecc0$d300a8c0@imogen>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrotte:
> I certainly think that the ruler of a Feudal Technocracy *can*
> be an Imperial noble. I just don't think it's a given, and I
> think that if he is, then it means that he is holding two hats,
> as it were. Just as Delphine IMO is wearing one hat whe she is
> being Duchess of Mora (Duchy) and another when she is being
> Matriarch of Mora (System).

I agree.  I think many people misunderstand the government  code.
Marc  Miller,  himself,  explains  (in  his  article   "Planetary
Governments in Traveller" ... High Passage magazine #5) that  the
government code refers to how the  players  might  interact  with
local government officials:

    "... it is  important  to  remember  just  what  purpose  the
    government factor is meant to serve.  Traveller  players  and
    characters  are  rarely  involved  with  government  on   the
    international and interplanetary level ... they want to  know
    what they can expect from the government structures at  their
    own level."

And later:

    "Feudal  Technocracy:  Ruling  functions  are  performed   by
    specific individuals for persons who agree  to  be  ruled  by
    them.   Relationships  are  based  on  the   performance   of
    technical  activities  which  are  mutually  beneficial.  The
    lower levels of government  (all  the  way  to  the  citizens
    themselves) support the upper levels  of  government  for  as
    long as  the  general  system  provides  a  living  for  all.
    Examples: Japan (in that companies tend to hire employees for
    life, and strong loyalties are formed), and the United States
    (in that some populations have strong party loyalty in return
    for local assistance by the party in the  form  of  jobs  and
    hand-outs)."

In other words it  is  *possible*  for  the  ruler  of  a  Feudal
Technocracy to be an Imperial noble, but  not  always  the  case.
And its also possible that a Feudal Technocracy is ruled  at  the
top by a board or committee rather  than  an  individual.  It  is
even possible that the top level of government is something  else
(like a democracy of  some  sort)  with  the  Feudal  Technocracy
aspect *only* applying to the lower levels of government.

(In my landgrab of Yori I had the upper government  structure  as
an authoritarian religious council!)

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 06:40:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Jun  6 05:40:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial nobility
References: <ML-2.3.1023139547.113.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <000801c20d57$912daa00$d300a8c0@imogen>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> There's a lot of nobles in the Imperium, it's very unlikely that
> they're all directly granted by higher nobility.  Grants of
> nobility probably have to be confirmed by a higher authority,
> but in practice would be mostly under the control of someone
> relatively local.

CT Supplement 11 p34 says:

    "All noble ranks within the peerage come  from  the  Emperor.
    The ability to  create  knights  and  baronets,  however,  is
    shared with the archdukes of  the  Imperium.  The  archdukes,
    within their domains, have the authority  to  create  knights
    and baronets, subject only to  disapproval  by  the  Emperor.
    The purpose of these  knighthoods  (and  baronetcies)  is  to
    allow the archdukes to create supporters  and  retainers  for
    their own purposes rather than to depend on the Emperor to do
    so.  The noble ranks created are not members of the peerage."

I interpret this  as  meaning  that  while  mid-rank  nobles  may
*nominate* someone to be elevated into the peerage, and while the
Emperor  may  usually  just   rubber-stamp   those   nominations,
neverteless peerage nobles are *not* created locally.  The reason
for this is simple: while there is a hierarcy of noble ranks  all
peerage nobles still owe allegiance *directly*  to  the  Emperor.
This means that provided it remains clear who the Emperor is (not
the case during the Rebellion in MT) then it should be  difficult
for a mid-rank noble to rebel (the lower-rank nobles should  side
with the Emperor).  This is an important pillar in the  stability
of the Imperial system.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 06:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Jun  6 05:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ouch.
Message-ID: <3CFF5995.8A587A59@mail.cswnet.com>

After reading some of the posts from various pbems it occured to me that
it might be cost effective for PCs to rent a room at the local hospital
as opposed to getting one at a hotel. 

I might have to add some space to the infirmarys on Arba too.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
Ouch.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 07:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Jun  6 06:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
Message-ID: <200206061259.HWG04422@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

There were numerous times during the Clinton administration 
where I heard officers openly talk of sedition.  The talk was 
well known to the Clinton administration, who put out an 
order that it was to stop, or else.  The talk did not stop, 
and no one was ever brought up on charges.  It's probably 
good that the current administration is enforcing discipline.

I've often wondered what limits there are to freedom of 
speech in the Imperium.  The only canon reference that seems 
to refer directly to this is the suppression of the news 
services during the whole Lucan thing in the JTAS - the 
impression is given that previously, news organizations could 
publish whatever they wanted to say prior to the troubles.  
There are bound to be local restrictions depending on the 
planet in question, but across the Imperium, it seems to be 
ok to criticize public figures as long as you don't encourage 
sedition, etc.  I also assume that officers are more 
restricted in their speech (at least in public and in 
uniform).  

Given that there is an impression at least of freedom of 
speech prior to Lucan, are there any central "rights" in the 
Imperium?  In a universe that has the rule of men rather than 
the rule of law, one might conclude that there are central 
guiding principles similar to the "bill of rights" (or even 
the Magna Carta) that everyone holds dear.  It might make our 
interpretations of how men would rule if we knew what these 
central principles were.  These rights would have to spell 
out in large, sweeping terms, the rights of "states" such as 
planetary system governments, and the rights of individuals 
within the Imperium.  From that point, local systems could be 
governed in as loose a fashion as the guidelines would permit.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 07:00:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Jun  6 06:00:49 2002
Subject: [TML] TCS like web-game looking for a good home
Message-ID: <3CFF5C29.2EF82FD3@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage>

1. A permanent IP would be helpfull.

2. Figuring out how to unlock units/fleets previously locked would be
helpfull.

3. A more extensive Help/Intro section for newbies like me.

4. On the Units, something showing what your unit will be like when your
finished with it WITHOUT locking it in.

Other than that, it looks interesting.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 07:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Jun  6 06:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Ouch.
Message-ID: <memo.27073@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3CFF5995.8A587A59@mail.cswnet.com>
>After reading some of the posts from various pbems it occured to me that
>it might be cost effective for PCs to rent a room at the local hospital
>as opposed to getting one at a hotel. 

As one of the 'walking wounded' I think certain GMs have shares in Regina 
Trauma :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 07:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu Jun  6 06:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
Message-ID: <200206061334.g56DYL003982@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
>Subject: RE: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
...
>On another list someone claims a modern Combined Arms Battalion could
>probably beat either side at Krusk.  He claims that this was actuallly
>war gamed at Ft Benning

  If they had unlimited ammo, didn't need sleep, didn't make
mistakes, and couldn't be effected by artillery, then quite
possibly. Sounds like someone goofed the scale or is just
being silly. 

  Going into a `43 division and coming out the other side, OTOH...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 07:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Thu Jun  6 06:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
References: <200206061259.HWG04422@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <004301c20d5f$a218be60$1c577b83@Gideon>

<quote>

> In a universe that has the rule of men rather than
> the rule of law, one might conclude that there are central
> guiding principles similar to the "bill of rights" (or even
> the Magna Carta) that everyone holds dear.  It might make our
> interpretations of how men would rule if we knew what these
> central principles were.  These rights would have to spell
> out in large, sweeping terms, the rights of "states" such as
> planetary system governments, and the rights of individuals
> within the Imperium.  From that point, local systems could be
> governed in as loose a fashion as the guidelines would permit.

</quote>

This was discussed in much detail about a year ago and is probably one of
the more enlightening discussions I've seen on this list.  It was this
particular discussion (and more specifically the rights of an individual
within the Imperium) that led to the brainchild of Mr. Ayers known as
MyMines Corporation.

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 07:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Jun  6 06:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22951@USCHM203>

>John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> wrote:
>We have never really decided how long Naval ships last in Traveller. There
>was a story by H beam Piper, Cosmic Computer? where the army left
everything
>behind and the local made a living scavenging the leftovers,  Including as
I
>recall a moon that was positively littered with ships and contra grav
tanks.

>The ordinary yards at a depot must be immmpressive sights.

Excellent book. If I remember correctly, most of the equipment was sealed in
underground bases. The main character was sent by the locals to Terra to go
to college and, most importantly, find the location of a legendary
super-computer. He also found maps with locations of bases and depots that
were previously unknown. The entire "scavenging" industry was more akin to
prospecting, with locals searching for these hidden sites.
IIRC, the character goads the complacent locals into not only scavenging
more equipment, but tries to get them to recreate the industry that produced
them. He also talks them into getting up to the above-mentioned moon to
restore some of those ships, so that they could trade directly with other
systems, rather than selling millions of credits worth of weapons for a song
to free traders.

But back to the topic, in Piper's books most vehicles were made out of
"collapsium", and presumably would last for thousands of years.

I don't think a 100 years is out of line for a ship in Traveller, and even
150 to 200 years could be possible, considering that some of the US ships
have seen service for half a century, and have really only been retired
because their design is obsolete. I don't think sea-worthiness is an issue.

They even took the U.S.S. Constitution out for a little cruise not too long
ago :)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 08:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Jun  6 07:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with space
In-Reply-To: <3CFE61A2.27165.17BB0AC@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020605184933.009f4690@mindspring.com>

At 07:08 PM 6/5/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Actually I have not written becomes I am working on some more
>landgrab stuff.  Now  I do not understand how to do the orbits of
>moons.  Can some one help me out?  Which rules system has the
>best methods?  What other stuff along these lines need to be on a
>landgrab?

GT First In has the best rules for everything, IMHO.

The formula is:

P = 0.0074 x Square root of (R^3/M)

P: Period of the moon in standard days
R: Orbital radius in thousands of miles
M: Sum of the masses of the satellite and main world, in Earth masses

For example, Twige (1.03 mass) has one moon, Fred (.38 mass) that has an 
orbital radious of 125,000 miles.

P = 0.0074 x Sr (125^3/1.41)

P = 8.7 days.


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is
that I am now a perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague
here is rapidly running out of limbs!"
   - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 08:13:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Jun  6 07:13:26 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <F209IjxGq01wLMLCkgC00014efb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020605185733.009f1ba0@mindspring.com>

At 01:11 AM 6/6/02 +0000, you wrote:

>(1)  Our ship's ballcap featured a "golden grizzly", that being the state 
>animal of California(2).  Unfortunately, the silhouette resembled a large 
>boar at only a few yards distance.

Just plain grizzly. No such thing as the golden grizzly, unless one has 
been rolling around in your placer mine.

>(2)  State animal yes, but none have been seen in California since the 
>first McKinley administration.

Actually, grizzlies are being sighted up around Mt. Shasta.  Welcome back, 
guys!  Yosemite is that way, go eat the Winnebago hordes.


--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 08:13:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Jun  6 07:13:54 2002
Subject: [TML] OT Heard on the news
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEIGHJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020605194812.009fdec0@mindspring.com>

At 06:54 PM 6/5/02 -0700, you wrote:
>I heard this on the news. Some Colonel got suspended
>for being disrespectful to Bush.  Something about writing
>a letter to the editor I think they said. Hell, if not
>showing respect to the Commander in Chief was grounds
>for getting you in trouble, based on folks in the military I know,
>we would have finished Carters term in office with a reinforced
>platoon under colors.

Doing it publicly is what gets you in trouble.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 08:14:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Thu Jun  6 07:14:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22951@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22951@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <0206061505240D.30806@avlendris>

> They even took the U.S.S. Constitution out for a little cruise not too long
> ago :)

What, the frigate U.S.S Constitution, from like, the civil war?

I wonder what the oldest serving, seaworthy vessel is... would the HMS 
victory survive an outing?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 08:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Jun  6 07:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200206061259.HWG04422@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606071814.009f4d20@mindspring.com>

At 08:59 AM 6/6/02 -0400, you wrote:
>There were numerous times during the Clinton administration
>where I heard officers openly talk of sedition.  The talk was
>well known to the Clinton administration, who put out an
>order that it was to stop, or else.  The talk did not stop,
>and no one was ever brought up on charges.  It's probably
>good that the current administration is enforcing discipline.

Actually a USAF three-star made some remarks that cost him his career. You 
can dislike the President, but don't maker it public. (take for example, my 
relationship with Reagan.)

>I've often wondered what limits there are to freedom of
>speech in the Imperium.  The only canon reference that seems
>to refer directly to this is the suppression of the news
>services during the whole Lucan thing in the JTAS - the
>impression is given that previously, news organizations could
>publish whatever they wanted to say prior to the troubles.
>There are bound to be local restrictions depending on the
>planet in question, but across the Imperium, it seems to be
>ok to criticize public figures as long as you don't encourage
>sedition, etc.  I also assume that officers are more
>restricted in their speech (at least in public and in
>uniform).

Officers of the Imperial services take oaths directly to the Emperor. They 
are bound to him as a person, not the state and its laws. Since Emperors 
serve for decades, You probably wouldn't get too many officers who disliked 
the Emperor that much, especially with alternatives like service in the 
planetary defense forces avalible. If the Emperor dies, and some officers 
find the new monarch distasteful, they can resign their commissions.

>Given that there is an impression at least of freedom of
>speech prior to Lucan, are there any central "rights" in the
>Imperium?  In a universe that has the rule of men rather than
>the rule of law, one might conclude that there are central
>guiding principles similar to the "bill of rights" (or even
>the Magna Carta) that everyone holds dear.  It might make our
>interpretations of how men would rule if we knew what these
>central principles were.  These rights would have to spell
>out in large, sweeping terms, the rights of "states" such as
>planetary system governments, and the rights of individuals
>within the Imperium.  From that point, local systems could be
>governed in as loose a fashion as the guidelines would permit.

An implied freedom of speech and the press, as you noted.  Freedom from 
slavery. Freedom of travel.  Other than that, I'm not sure.

I'd think there would be something along the lines of "freedom to bitch at 
the local nobility," forving nobles to have large offices to handle complaints.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 09:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Ouch.
In-Reply-To: <3CFF5995.8A587A59@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606073039.009f4670@mindspring.com>

At 07:46 AM 6/6/02 -0500, you wrote:
>After reading some of the posts from various pbems it occured to me that
>it might be cost effective for PCs to rent a room at the local hospital
>as opposed to getting one at a hotel.

LOL! For a few years I referred to the Peterson Cancer Ward at Stanford as 
my "vacation time share." Got the annual case of pneumonia, spent two weeks 
flat on my back with hot and cold running nurses, read several books, went 
home.


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
                          -Chicago reader, 10/15/82


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 09:10:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:10:28 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <m3k7pd7z46.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <F209IjxGq01wLMLCkgC00014efb@hotmail.com>
 <F209IjxGq01wLMLCkgC00014efb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606072551.009f6c20@mindspring.com>

At 11:30 PM 6/5/02 -0600, you wrote:
>"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
> >
> > I'm getting positively elderly.  I served aboard two ships and
> > they've both been scrapped.
>
>My old man has two Navy-related occasions upon which he has felt old.
>One was when one of his classmates made captain (`we're not old enough
>to be captains--they're old, and remote, and have no sense of
>humour!').  The other was when his favourite ship was sold to the
>Turks.

A person I went through infantry OSUT with has made First Sergeant 
(E-8).  Every single piece of equipment I was issued has been replaced by 
newer models. A 2LT I was under is up for his first star. (You can make 
Chief of Staff, sir, but you'll always be the L-T to us!)

I'm not old, I'm frikking mummified.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 09:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
In-Reply-To: <0206061505240D.30806@avlendris>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22951@USCHM203>
 <0206061505240D.30806@avlendris>
Message-ID: <m3n0u8qvrc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> writes:
> 
> What, the frigate U.S.S Constitution, from like, the civil war?

31 Oct. 1797, to be precise.  It spend the War of Northern Agression
hiding in Rhode Island.

> I wonder what the oldest serving, seaworthy vessel is... would the HMS 
> victory survive an outing?

Her website doesn't indicate anything.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Krishhti Unjall!  Vertet Unjall!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 09:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
In-Reply-To: <0206061505240D.30806@avlendris>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22951@USCHM203>
 <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22951@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606074421.009f3ec0@mindspring.com>

At 03:05 PM 6/6/02 +0100, you wrote:

> > They even took the U.S.S. Constitution out for a little cruise not too long
> > ago :)
>
>What, the frigate U.S.S Constitution, from like, the civil war?

Bite your tongue!  Old Ironsides fought the British in the Revolutionary War!

--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 10:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Jun  6 09:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606074421.009f3ec0@mindspring.com>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22951@USCHM203>
 <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22951@USCHM203>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020606074421.009f3ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3it4wqtwz.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> Bite your tongue!  Old Ironsides fought the British in the
> Revolutionary War!

Nope--War o' 1812.  She wasn't even begun until after the
Revolutionary War, the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution
were worked out.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Cristo Resucita!  En Verdad Resucita!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 10:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Jun  6 09:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
In-Reply-To: <m3it4wqtwz.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B924DBC7.5DB47%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/6/02 9:00 AM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:
> 
> Nope--War o' 1812.  She wasn't even begun until after the
> Revolutionary War, the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution
> were worked out.

A simple visit to her web site will answer all:
http://www.ussconstitution.navy.mil/

Didn't anyone on this list play "Wooden Ships and Iron Men"?


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 10:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Jun  6 09:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with space/Ping!
Message-ID: <3CFF8D66.9C39855@mail.cswnet.com>

timothyreynolds@earthlink.net writes:
>Are we up and running or is the TML down.  

Its probably a combination of things. Its summer [in the northern
hemisphere] and some people are probably on vacation. Then you got a
whole bunch of people on PBEM's which seems to be where the action is
right now. Its possible that the TML is a little slow itself. I'll go
with all three being responsible.

>Which rules system has the best methods?
Lets start off with the four big questions:
1. First off, how big of a landgrab do you want to do?
2. How much detail do you want in it?
3. How much time do you want to put into it?
4. Have you picked a planetary system yet?

From my own landgrab, I used both Book6 Scouts and GT First In, along
with the Directors Guide to 2300 and some DGP stuff that was in
Challenge [the article on volcanos]. Mostly favored Book6, used the rest
to fill details.

>What other stuff along these lines need to be on a landgrab?

Name of planetary system
Name of main world

Name and details of star or stars

Details of planetary system

Details of main world geography, atmosphere, hydrography.

Details of main world population

Details of main world government/law level

Details of main world economics

Details of main world technology

Details of main world starport

Details of main world military, if any.

Details of main world history, if any.

And so on and so forth. If a secondary planet has significant
population, you can spend alot of time detailing it just like the
main world.

For my own landgrab, I have used:
Book 6 Scouts
Book 5 High Guard
Book 7 Merchant Prince
Book 8 Robots
GT First In
GT Far Trader
GT Starports
Robert Eaglestones' Starports [on the web]
Striker
Directors guide to 2300
Beltstrike
Tavonni RICE paper [on the web] for history
Moving Mars by Greg Bear used for government/local color
Beyond sector from Paranoia

Thats just a few things I've used...

If a may suggest Andrew Moffatt-Vallance's Ficant landgrab as a good
starting place. I used his landgrab as a template for my own. Its very,
very good. Of course, my first effort ain't to bad. You'll find Arba and
Ficant listed in the Great TML Landgrab sight.

If you haven't picked out a planetary system yet, may I suggest
Rabwhar/Lunion. Its a nice little frontier system, has a scout base, a
sternmetal horizons lab in the out system, and a respectable 3 corps TL6
army. And you'll have company on the frontier. Saurus, Tavonni, and Arba
are all nearby. If you wanna go big, on the other end of the frontier
line is Vilis, which hasn't been grabed yet.

Take care

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 10:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Jun  6 09:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
Message-ID: <memo.33092@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B924DBC7.5DB47%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>Didn't anyone on this list play "Wooden Ships and Iron Men"?

Frequently... even if my dearly beloved kept sinking my ships :-)

Indeed, she says craning her neck, I can see the box from where I sit. The 
'Age of Sail' is one of my favourite historical periods, and one of these 
odd days I'll get round to turning my ideas into an RPG set therein!

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 10:48:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Jun  6 09:48:05 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020605185733.009f1ba0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023382068.7543.ajackson@ping>

Douglas Berry writes:
> At 01:11 AM 6/6/02 +0000, you wrote:
> 
> >(1)  Our ship's ballcap featured a "golden grizzly", that being the state 
> >animal of California(2).  Unfortunately, the silhouette resembled a large 
> >boar at only a few yards distance.
> 
> Just plain grizzly. No such thing as the golden grizzly, unless one has 
> been rolling around in your placer mine.

Well, the california state animal _is_ the golden bear.  No such animal
actually exists, but that's only a minor detail.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 11:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Jun  6 10:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
Message-ID: <F147sO7tB2jP2xfpayu0000f83a@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "Bite your tongue!  Old Ironsides fought the British in the
Revolutionary War!"


Mr. Berry,

     Almost, she was laid down in 1797 and thus is an 18th century artifact 
as you remembered.  She missed the first war by a decade or so.
     During her career, she tangled with the Barbary Pirates, Revolutionary 
France during the Quasi-War (which presaged the 1939-1940 Battle of the 
Atlantic rather eerily), and the British in the 1812-14 fiasco.
     By the time the American Civil War rolled around, she would have been 
easy meat for any of the "modern" warships of that era.  They carried 
heavier, shell firing guns and, at the very least, has auxiliary steam 
engines.  Old Ironsides could have never repeated her trick of continually 
kedging anchors in order to keep away from a British squadron during a THREE 
DAY calm.  Steam vessels simply would have pulled within range and blown her 
apart.
     There was a USS New Ironsides launched and operated during the Civil 
War.  Perhaps the original poster confused the two?  The New Ironsides, 
along with the horrid Keokuk, is one of the forgotten US ironclads.  She was 
a iron hulled, steam frigate, somewhat akin to the far superior HMS Warrior. 
  She served as DuPont's flagship off Charleston during the blockade and 
took everything the Slaver's could throw at her and more.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 11:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Jun  6 10:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
Message-ID: <F246HZpTIosdcdVhhRq00011902@hotmail.com>

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "31 Oct. 1797, to be precise.  It spend the War of Northern Agression 
hiding in Rhode Island."


Mr. Uhl,

     If memory serves, she, and the Naval Academy, departed Annapolis, 
Maryland for Newport when it seemed that Maryland would join the Slavers' 
Cause.  To be fair, she was hideously obsolete by that date, in both 
armament and propulsion.  She was being used as a sail trainer at the 
academy.
     An interesting "What-if?" puts the Consitution in Norfolk and has her 
burned to the waterline along with the Merrimac.  One wonders if the Slavers 
would have slung a steam engine in her, built up a casemate, and turned her 
into a real "ironsides" as they did with Merrimac.  Merrimac did have the 
luxury of having a remarkably cranky steam engine already installed.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 11:15:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Thu Jun  6 10:15:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
In-Reply-To: <B924DBC7.5DB47%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0206060959500.24993-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Didn't anyone on this list play "Wooden Ships and Iron Men"?

Loved that game.  There appears to be a software edition of it out
but I haven't tried it.  (Got Age of Sail II - pretty good, but would
only run on my work computer, so I don't play it much.)

http://www.cdaccess.com/html/pc/woodship.htm

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 11:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Martin Hardgrave)
Date: Thu Jun  6 10:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hapsburgs
In-Reply-To: <20020605171539.3A62F279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <TNSHXDAEh5$8EwCa@deira.demon.co.uk>

In message <20020605171539.3A62F279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>, tml-
request@travellercentral.com writes
> The Hapsburg heir, at least, has maintained a certain
>amount of dignity.

On being asked if he saw a recent Austria - Hungary football game he
replied "No - who were we playing?"
-- 
Martin Hardgrave

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 11:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Thu Jun  6 10:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with space/Ping!
In-Reply-To: <3CFF8D66.9C39855@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0206061016080.24993-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Roseberry wrote:

> Moving Mars by Greg Bear used for government/local color

Ah, someone else who knows that BM stands for Binding Multiple? :)
I enjoyed that book.  Still don't understand his explanation for how
the tweakers work though.

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 11:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Jun  6 10:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
Message-ID: <F198zZZuaILFXk5oXwW00009bc1@hotmail.com>

From: Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie>

     "I wonder what the oldest serving, seaworthy vessel is... would the HMS 
Victory survive an outing?"


Mr. Caball,

     I would doubt it, Victory has been in a drydock since before WW2.  In 
fact that saved her during the Blitz.  An "errant" bomb exploded in her dry 
berth and blew a tidy hole in her side.  If the same explosion had took 
place in the water and at the same distance, she would have been stove in 
and sunk.
     As far as seaworthy goes, I wouldn't put my money on the Constitution 
either.  She floats at the Navy Yard in Boston and is moved every year by 
tug to switch sides for weathering purposes.  The "sail" during the 1997 
bicentennial was primarily stage managed, she moved very slowly over a small 
distance.
     Also, unlike Victory, Constitution has been extensively repaired and 
rebuilt over the years.  IIRC, something like <5% of her is actually from 
1797.  Granted some of those repairs took place in the 1800's, but most of 
the Constitution isn't "original".  She brings to mind the 57th century 
questioning about cyborgs; how much can you replace and still be considered 
the same?
     For oldest original, seaworthy vessel, my bets are on HMS Warrior.  Not 
only is she still afloat, but she still has the same wrought iron hull she 
had upon launching in 1860.  Until she was saved for restoration, Warrior 
was still earning her keep as a fueling hulk nearly a century after her 
construction.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S.  I'm a ship crank, can't you tell?

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 12:58:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Thu Jun  6 11:58:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22951@USCHM203> <0206061505240D.30806@avlendris>
Message-ID: <3CFFB0F8.BE05F898@attbi.com>


Brian Caball wrote:

> > They even took the U.S.S. Constitution out for a little cruise not too long
> > ago :)
>
> What, the frigate U.S.S Constitution, from like, the civil war?
>
> I wonder what the oldest serving, seaworthy vessel is... would the HMS
> victory survive an outing?

In the USN it was the Samuel Gompers, or at least it was when I was in.
But I think they have decomissioned all the 600 pound plant driven ships
since I got out.

And Doug, The USS Constitution dates from the War of 1812, what ever
she didn't outgun she could out sail.

One more for Doug, all of the commands I served in are gone, except for
the navel anfib base at Coranado.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 13:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Jun  6 12:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT Heard on the news
Message-ID: <3CFFB122.8B1F12DA@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage>
I have two comments on this thread:

1. Emperor Strephon is a Fruitcake.

2. "Bert the Turtle says, Duck and Cover!"

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 13:10:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Jun  6 12:10:05 2002
Subject: [TML] As seen on TV...Grapnels
Message-ID: <3CFFB2C9.F28EEC6B@mail.cswnet.com>

Grapnels for de-trapping...

Watching the news the other night, saw them do an anti-caving mission in
Afghanistan. 101st troops sat outside a cave entrance and used a
grapling hook with rope to trigger any traps/mines inside the cave.
Didn't show whether they threw it in or used a gun or launcher. Neat
trick though. Never heared of that done before.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 13:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jerry Hill)
Date: Thu Jun  6 12:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT Heard on the news
Message-ID: <E492FAC594C5D511A3F400508BC76D2445AA0C@fdnnt16.fdn>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: knightsky@juno.com
>
> From what I understand, it wasn't that he was suspended for 
> simply being 'disrespectful' - in effect, he stated that a 
> superior officer (the commander-in-chief) had knowingly 
> allowed thousands of American citizens to be murdered 
> without doing anything to stop it.  That's the sort of
> accusation you need hard evidence to back up; simply making 
> such claims in a public forum without any evidence is likely 
> to get a military officer canned.

Via Google News (news.google.com), here's an article about the incident:
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/news/0602/05colonel.html

Apparently Air Force Lt. Col. Steve Butler wrote a letter to The (Montery
County) Herald wherein he said "[Bush] did nothing to warn the American
people because he needed this war on terrorism," Butler wrote. "His daddy
had Saddam and he needed Osama. His presidency was going nowhere. ... This
guy is a joke."

--
Jerry Hill
Orlando, FL, USA

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 13:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Jun  6 12:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with space/Ping!
Message-ID: <3CFFB6AF.A20B3911@mail.cswnet.com>

>Still don't understand his explanation for how the tweakers work >though.

As I understand it, everything in the universe is supposed to have its
own mathematical locating formula, a zip code if you will. Tweakers
simply move a ship, a rock, or a planet, from one zip code to another.
Now, if someone knows how to do the engineering for this, I got a sweet
deal for you...

I've got the Taylor binding multiple working in the outsystem of Arba
locating gas asteroids. Binding Multiples in their early colonization
stage make for a perfect govn't 0. Of course as the population grows on
Arba it'll undergo the some of the same problems that Mars experienced.

I suppose we'll have Grey Rabbits instead of Red ones ;)

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 13:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Thu Jun  6 12:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with space/Ping!
In-Reply-To: <3CFFB6AF.A20B3911@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0206061247540.6202-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Roseberry wrote:

> As I understand it, everything in the universe is supposed to have its
> own mathematical locating formula, a zip code if you will. Tweakers
> simply move a ship, a rock, or a planet, from one zip code to another.
> Now, if someone knows how to do the engineering for this, I got a sweet
> deal for you...

Change of Address forms, located at your local post office. <g>

But yes, the engineering was missing part for me.  It had something to do
with the Thinkers (AIs) thinking 'deep enough' or something and just
"tweaking" *something*.  That something eluded me.

> I've got the Taylor binding multiple working in the outsystem of Arba
> locating gas asteroids. Binding Multiples in their early colonization
> stage make for a perfect govn't 0. Of course as the population grows on
> Arba it'll undergo the some of the same problems that Mars experienced.
>
> I suppose we'll have Grey Rabbits instead of Red ones ;)

:)

Nice application of the idea.

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 14:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Jun  6 13:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What's your fav. docking bay?
Message-ID: <3CFFC3C6.C42C4A89@mail.cswnet.com>

Since things are slow, I thought I would throw this piece of noise out
to the TML...

Ever notice alot of people start their ships of at Docking bay 94?
Presumably from Star Wars4, the M. Falcons bay on Tatooine.
Its got to drive the traffic control people nuts. I can see 2-3 pc
groups, all fighting for the right to land in bay 94.

It got me wondering though...
What's your favorite starting point docking bay?

downport bay 94
upport bay 327 [How many upports would have a bay 327?]
hanger 18
area 51
pad 39A/B
or something completely different?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 14:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun  6 13:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Todays news
Message-ID: <20020606.133530.-79249.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Some "mentalist" guy has predicted that a UFO will arrive over Las Vegas
Nevada, USA tonight between 10:00 and 12:00.
He is so adamant about it that he will give $50,000.00 US dollars to
charity if wrong.
 Reported on KOVR13 news at noon, Sacramento, Ca.

ObTrav:

 What if an Imperial Cruiser did appear over Vegas?

Answers anyone?

1. Ah man, we just came to party..

2.


..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 14:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun  6 13:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What's your fav. docking bay?
Message-ID: <20020606.134458.-79249.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Thu, 06 Jun 2002 15:19:18 -0500 Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
writes:
> 
> It got me wondering though...
> What's your favorite starting point docking bay?
> 

downport bay 94
        if my ship was small enough.

hanger 18
        if my ship was mysterious enough

area 51
        if my ship was secret enough

pads 1-5, level 1
         if my ship was important enough

Turokan

..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 15:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for a the gang of 6
Message-ID: <3CFF8AC2.30596.1AF9DF@localhost>

Hey if I ask nicely can the following people please with sugar on top send 
me information on their Landgrabs.  

Ron Brown,{HYPERLINK "http://home.earthlink.net/~timothyreynolds/Traveller/Forine/introduc.htm"} Tommy Grav,  Rob Miracle, Al Thompson,  Walt Smith,  
Siani Anne Overstreet. 

Thanks in advance I could use the help with District 268 and dont want 
to step on anyone's feet.  

Tim Reynolds


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 15:28:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:28:11 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Todays news
In-Reply-To: <20020606.133530.-79249.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000401c20da1$0db47060$0b01a8c0@duck>

>  What if an Imperial Cruiser did appear over Vegas?

What if a First Imperium destroyer did appear over Vegas?  They picked Vegas
because, as the single brightest point on the planet, they thought it was a
capitol or something.

Just imagine what would happen if an obviously extra-terrestrial craft
landed (Vegas or wherever) and *humans* came out of the ship.  What would
the press, governments and scientists do if actual extraterrestrial humans
were to appear?

I imagine they wouldn't believe they were human at first, but after proving
they were, what would the reation be?

Also, once they go to know our various governments, which would the First
Imperium prefer to deal with?

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 15:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
In-Reply-To: <F246HZpTIosdcdVhhRq00011902@hotmail.com>
References: <F246HZpTIosdcdVhhRq00011902@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3adq89jsl.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
> 
>      If memory serves, she, and the Naval Academy, departed Annapolis,
> Maryland for Newport when it seemed that Maryland would join the
> Slavers' Cause.

I wish you'd not call the cause of freedom the cause of slavery...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos anesti ek nekron    |  Christ is risen from the dead
Thanato thanaton patisas     |  Trampling down death by death
Kai tis en tis mnimasi       |  And upon those in the tombs
Zoin charisamenos            |  Bestowing life

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 15:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200206061259.HWG04422@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEHKEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>I've often wondered what limits there are to freedom of
>speech in the Imperium.  The only canon reference that seems
>to refer directly to this is the suppression of the news
>services during the whole Lucan thing in the JTAS - the
>impression is given that previously, news organizations could
>publish whatever they wanted to say prior to the troubles.
>There are bound to be local restrictions depending on the
>planet in question, but across the Imperium, it seems to be
>ok to criticize public figures as long as you don't encourage
>sedition, etc.  I also assume that officers are more
>restricted in their speech (at least in public and in
>uniform).
>
I would expect that "freedom of speech" is directly related to who the
speaker is. The Emperor has total freedom of speech. It's quite probable
that anything a noble says on the floor of the Moot is protected speech.
Military officers and Imperial government workers probably have no freedom
of speech if what they want to say impugns the character of anyone in
authority over them or is critical of the policies of the Imperium.

Citizens of specific worlds may have a locally protected freedom of speech,
which Imperial forces could negate at their pleasure (always a rare
occurrence only because the Imperium generally doesn't get involved in local
issues.)  This is a IMTU thing.

>Given that there is an impression at least of freedom of
>speech prior to Lucan, are there any central "rights" in the
>Imperium?  In a universe that has the rule of men rather than
>the rule of law, one might conclude that there are central
>guiding principles similar to the "bill of rights" (or even
>the Magna Carta) that everyone holds dear.  It might make our
>interpretations of how men would rule if we knew what these
>central principles were.  These rights would have to spell
>out in large, sweeping terms, the rights of "states" such as
>planetary system governments, and the rights of individuals
>within the Imperium.  From that point, local systems could be
>governed in as loose a fashion as the guidelines would permit.
>________________

I've advanced my theory before that TNS items are primarily aimed at
Travellers, that upper class of Imperial and local nobles, Megacorp
executives and members of academia who are members of the society. The fact
that local news services on worlds that have an open press pick up these
stories is more happenstance than planned by the society. On many worlds
these news stories are purposefully not passed on to the planetbound by the
people in charge. It was my impression that Lucan was limiting the right of
the privilege classes to receive information. This is an entirely different
thing than a general bill of rights.

In a government of men not laws all men are not equal, by definition. They
rule by personality and association, not through laws and bills.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 15:45:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:45:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
In-Reply-To: <m3adq89jsl.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023399877.6838.ajackson@ping>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:
> "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
> > 
> >      If memory serves, she, and the Naval Academy, departed Annapolis,
> > Maryland for Newport when it seemed that Maryland would join the
> > Slavers' Cause.
> 
> I wish you'd not call the cause of freedom the cause of slavery...

I wish you'd not call the cause of freedom the cause of slavery...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 15:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Todays news
In-Reply-To: <000401c20da1$0db47060$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20020606214730.464B8279C0@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/06/02 at 04:28 PM,  "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com> said:

>>  What if an Imperial Cruiser did appear over Vegas?

>What if a First Imperium destroyer did appear over Vegas?  They
>picked Vegas because, as the single brightest point on the planet,
>they thought it was a capitol or something.

Is it?  Even so, I'd think there would be a bit more research prior to
contact, so they would know better....or is there something about Las
Vagas that *we* don't know? <g>

>Just imagine what would happen if an obviously extra-terrestrial
>craft landed (Vegas or wherever) and *humans* came out of the ship. 
>What would the press, governments and scientists do if actual
>extraterrestrial humans were to appear?

The tabloid press would have a field day. <g> "Alien Elvis
Lovechild!", "Vilani Needs Women!", "The Vilani Eat WHAT?"

>I imagine they wouldn't believe they were human at first, but after
>proving they were, what would the reation be?

>Also, once they go to know our various governments, which would the
>First Imperium prefer to deal with?

I think they would probably prefer to deal with the Chinese.  

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 15:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1023399877.6838.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023400365.5758.ajackson@ping>

Anthony Jackson writes:
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:

> > I wish you'd not call the cause of freedom the cause of slavery...
> 
> I wish you'd not call the cause of freedom the cause of slavery...

To be less elliptical, I wish you'd excise the phrase 'war of northern
aggression' from your lexicon.  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 15:54:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:54:08 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Todays news
In-Reply-To: <20020606214730.464B8279C0@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <000401c20da1$0db47060$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <3CFF9415.1183.3F6A77@localhost>

On 6 Jun 2002, at 16:47, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 06/06/02 at 04:28 PM,  "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com> said:
> 
> >>  What if an Imperial Cruiser did appear over Vegas?
> 
> >What if a First Imperium destroyer did appear over Vegas?  They
> >picked Vegas because, as the single brightest point on the planet,
> >they thought it was a capitol or something.
> 
> Is it?  Even so, I'd think there would be a bit more research prior to
> contact, so they would know better....or is there something about Las
> Vagas that *we* don't know? <g>

Well it would be a fun place to spend shore/space leave.  I mean 
they are human so they would like the finer things Las Vagas has 
to offer.

> 
> >Just imagine what would happen if an obviously extra-terrestrial
> >craft landed (Vegas or wherever) and *humans* came out of the ship.
> >What would the press, governments and scientists do if actual
> >extraterrestrial humans were to appear?
> 
> The tabloid press would have a field day. <g> "Alien Elvis
> Lovechild!", "Vilani Needs Women!", "The Vilani Eat WHAT?"
> 
Will the Aternoy General ask for Finger Prints of these Alieans.

> >I imagine they wouldn't believe they were human at first, but after
> >proving they were, what would the reation be?
> 
> >Also, once they go to know our various governments, which would the
> >First Imperium prefer to deal with?
> 
> I think they would probably prefer to deal with the Chinese.  

I thought Chinese at first, but probably India would be of more 
interest.

Tim Reynolds

> 
> Eris
> -- 
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 16:12:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Jun  6 15:12:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
Message-ID: <F254I76rOJhKPc99ir300013aa2@hotmail.com>

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "I wish..."


Mr. Uhl,

     I wish I hadn't responded to your comment.  It was unseemly of me and 
elevates the flame risk here on the TML.
     Please either drop this, as I will, or contact me off-List only.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 16:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Jun  6 15:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
In-Reply-To: <m3adq89jsl.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B9253040.5DD64%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/6/02 2:30 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
>> 
>> If memory serves, she, and the Naval Academy, departed Annapolis,
>> Maryland for Newport when it seemed that Maryland would join the
>> Slavers' Cause.
> 
> I wish you'd not call the cause of freedom the cause of slavery...

Freedom for whom?

Tod,

A self confessed bluebelly.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 16:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Jun  6 15:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
In-Reply-To: <B9253040.5DD64%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B92531B4.5DD69%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/6/02 3:29 PM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:


Apologies.  This should have gone to TML-CHAT



> on 6/6/02 2:30 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:
> 
>> "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
>>> 
>>> If memory serves, she, and the Naval Academy, departed Annapolis,
>>> Maryland for Newport when it seemed that Maryland would join the
>>> Slavers' Cause.
>> 
>> I wish you'd not call the cause of freedom the cause of slavery...
> 
> Freedom for whom?
> 
> Tod,
> 
> A self confessed bluebelly.
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 17:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Jun  6 16:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT Heard on the news
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEBGCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

>real politic if mayhaps a tad randy.

I don't believe that any military person that I have known, male or female,
officer or enlisted, serving or retired, would consider randiness any sort
of a flaw.

--Glenn



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 18:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Jun  6 17:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Freedom of speech in the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEBHCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>Given that there is an impression at least of freedom of
>speech prior to Lucan, are there any central "rights" in the
>Imperium?  In a universe that has the rule of men rather than

I think rights arise out of the social contract, which I see as follows:
The Imperium is a social contract among the Emperor, the nobility, and the
member worlds.  The citizens of the Imperium -- i.e., the commoners who live
on the member worlds -- are beneficiaries of this agreement, but not really
parties to it.  This social contract can be roughly spelled out as follows:

The Emperor provides the member states with security from foreign (and, to
some extent, domestic) aggression, from slavery, and from piracy.  The
Emperor helps foster interstellar trade.

The Emperor provides the nobles with legitimacy in their titles, and
regulates relationships among them.

The Emperor gets more or less absolute power (in no small part through
direct control over the navy), and his family becomes rich beyond anyone's
imagining, even without any self-dealing or corruption.

The nobles provide the Emperor with local representation and help manage the
Imperium -- but what that really means is that they make sure that the
member states pay their taxes.

The nobles get to keep their titles and attendant powers and their families
become extremely wealthy (even without corruption).  The nobles have the
right to dissolve the Imperium officially.

The member states provide the Emperor with money in the form of taxes to run
the Imperium.  Wealthy member states subsidize poorer ones to some extent
(e.g., by paying for the activities of the Ministry of Colonization).

The member states get almost total autonomy with respect to their running
themselves and their relationships with their Imperial neighbors.  The
Imperium has the right to assert itself into the relationships between
member states (typically in border areas) and non-Imperial states.

From this analysis, we have to ask about the rights of various classes
implicated in the social contract:  the Emperor, the nobles, the member
states, and the citizens.  I leave that part as an exercise for the list's
critics.

--Glenn

"God bless the Czar and keep him ... keep him far away from here!"  (Russian
rabbi's blessing in Fiddler on the Roof, and probably many other sources)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 18:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Jun  6 17:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hapsburgs
References: <20020606185906.464CD279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001401c20db9$cfee3180$575d8690@computer>

> From: Martin Hardgrave 
> On being asked if he saw a recent Austria - Hungary football game he
> replied "No - who were we playing?"

: )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 18:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Jun  6 17:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
References: <20020606185906.464CD279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004c01c20dbe$f2b216a0$575d8690@computer>

> From: Megan Robertson
> The 'Age of Sail' is one of my favourite historical periods, and one of
> these odd days I'll get round to turning my ideas into an RPG set therein!

Hmm.  There's been plenty of Pirate games published, and various
"swashbuckler" ones, but none that really seem to have taken off.  I guess
you could lift a lot of the ship-handling stuff from various places, and the
rest is all pretty straight forward.

The setting stuff would be interesting/tricky.  Few people are all that
familiar with the Barbary Corsairs and all the other interesting
non-European powers around in the 17th to early 19th centuries.  Because
none of the previous games really took off, there's little or no published
game material on them.

That just leaves you with the European powers and the USA, but even there
you are dealing with societies that pretty drastically "ain't us".

To make matters worse, the 'Age of Sail' was quite a long time, so you would
probably need to pick a sub-period, at least to begin with.

Like I said: Hmm.

OBTRAV:  well, of course, the 'Age of Sail' is one of the major analogies
used in Traveller.  There's a lot of filing off the serial numbers possible
between the two periods.

Actually, I am currently using the American "Wild West" as inspiration for a
rather scruffy, not ultracivilised world.  I may even extend the analogy to
a bunch of worlds, with the PCs "riding into the sunset" at the end of every
scenario.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 19:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Jun  6 18:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606074421.009f3ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020607011948.4E72727990@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/06/02 at 07:45 AM,  Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
said:

>At 03:05 PM 6/6/02 +0100, you wrote:

>> > They even took the U.S.S. Constitution out for a little cruise not too long
>> > ago :)
>>
>>What, the frigate U.S.S Constitution, from like, the civil war?

>Bite your tongue!  Old Ironsides fought the British in the
>Revolutionary War!

Not quite. <g> Barbary Pirates and the British in the War of 1812. 

The original point about long ship operating lives is good though. We
have 60 plus year old aircraft flying, the *shuttles* are approaching
20 years old, and if wouldn't surprise me if there are a few
commerical ships still in operation who's hulls were originally laid
down pre-WWI. Given the slow technological changes and conservative
nature of the TU, I'd expect ships to be built to last and last.
Rather than scrap a ship it would be upgraded, piece by piece until a
couple of hundred years after it's first lift, perhaps, the only
original pieces left is the basic structural backbone, and it's on
it's fifth owner and third change of mission. 


Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 19:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Jun  6 18:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
In-Reply-To: <B924DBC7.5DB47%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020607012813.56B8A27990@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/06/02 at 09:28 AM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 6/6/02 9:00 AM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote: >

>> Nope--War o' 1812.  She wasn't even begun until after the
>> Revolutionary War, the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution
>> were worked out.

>A simple visit to her web site will answer all:
>http://www.ussconstitution.navy.mil/

>Didn't anyone on this list play "Wooden Ships and Iron Men"?

Aye, matey!  

In my wargaming days, I played just about everything AH or SPI put
out. I liked WS&IM, but had trouble getting many of my friends to
play. 

To be honest, my vision of Traveller is *highly* colored by WS&IM and
that whole era of history. I know some of you are into fighters and
the vision of big steel ships throwing tons of explosive shells at
each other from over the horizon, but for me Traveller is close in
combat and boarding actions. Realism be damned! <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 19:31:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun  6 18:31:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller IRC games?
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEMEHHAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
References: <3CF52C03.9389.1F482BD@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CFFC6F5.15249.1062ADE@localhost>

John

I was gathering players together for the game I am going to run.  
Right now I have 4-5 players up and running.  If you are still 
interested send me a character.  Let me know one way or the other 
though so I can make plans :)

Tim Reynolds


On 29 May 2002, at 17:51, John-Martin wrote:

> system?
> Tentative time?
> tentative starting date?
> period/place?
> 
> jml
> who is also vaguely seriously thinking about an irc type campaign
> thingee, 
> 
> King Dub and others
> 
> It just so happans that I am in the process of gathering players for a
> game an IRC and maybe email as well.  If anyone is up for a unquie
> challange of a multi media game email me for more information. 
> 
> Oh Eris first you left us the dark about how your players are doing in
> your PBEM game.  Whats going on there? Second, can I email you to find
> out more about running an PBEM game?
> 
> Tim Reynolds
> 
> 
> On 29 May 2002, at 17:05, King Dub wrote:
> 
> > Would anyone be kind enough to point me in the direction of an IRC
> > Traveller game?
> > 
> > Thanks in advance.
> > 
> > King Dub
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 19:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Jun  6 18:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200206061259.HWG04422@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200206061259.HWG04422@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b925ba88e679@[143.232.119.186]>

At 8:59 AM -0400 6/6/02, John T. Kwon wrote:
>The only canon reference that seems
>to refer directly to this is the suppression of the news
>services during the whole Lucan thing in the JTAS - the
>impression is given that previously, news organizations could
>publish whatever they wanted to say prior to the troubles. 
>There are bound to be local restrictions depending on the
>planet in question, but across the Imperium, it seems to be
>ok to criticize public figures as long as you don't encourage
>sedition, etc.  I also assume that officers are more
>restricted in their speech (at least in public and in
>uniform).

In the CT period, there is a TNS item where reporters challenge a 
naval press officer on a misstatement.  So there is some freedom of 
the press.  It has been pointed out that this may only apply to those 
organizations that distribute info to organizations with some pull. 
The item in question implied (IIRC) that there was more than one 
reporter present so that it would appear that the TNS isn't only one 
with some freedom and the fact that the item is one that players 
would general be expected to be able to read implies that at least 
some of this freedom gets to (directly or indirectly) the general 
popoulation.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 19:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Thu Jun  6 18:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
In-Reply-To: <20020607011948.4E72727990@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606074421.009f3ec0@mindspring.com> <20020607011948.4E72727990@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <rr20gusg8jjidog5l2ifaib7nr97ipcth5@4ax.com>

On Thu, 06 Jun 2002 20:19:49 -0500, "Eris Reddoch"
<erisred@telocity.com> wrote:

<SNIP>
>
>The original point about long ship operating lives is good though. We
>have 60 plus year old aircraft flying, the *shuttles* are approaching
>20 years old, and if wouldn't surprise me if there are a few
>commerical ships still in operation who's hulls were originally laid
>down pre-WWI. Given the slow technological changes and conservative
>nature of the TU, I'd expect ships to be built to last and last.
>Rather than scrap a ship it would be upgraded, piece by piece until a
>couple of hundred years after it's first lift, perhaps, the only
>original pieces left is the basic structural backbone, and it's on
>it's fifth owner and third change of mission.=20

I imagine that part of a ship's lifetime would have to factor in the
kind of stresses it is put under in regular usage.

=46or instance, I can see IISS Donosev-class ships being among the
longer lived.  It doesn't enter atmospheres (neither for landing or
for fuel skimming), only accellerates at 2Gs and tends not to be used
in hazardous locales (though the exceptions to that last make for
'interesting times' for the crew).  Plus, since these are in active
service, you have these being maintained better.

Warships, unless they are 'yard queens' are certainly put into the
line of fire more frequently than scout ships, and will have a
correspondingly lower service life.

The classic Type S scout ship is subject to more wear and tear just
through its tendency to enter atmospheres alone, which is certain to
place a considerable stress on both the hull and the underlying frame.
Add to that its greater accelleration (even with G compensation), that
those detached scouts always seem to be getting into some kind of
trouble and their willingness to postpone repairs for budgetary
reasons, and you have a recipe for a shorter lifetime for any
starship.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 19:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jonathan Clark)
Date: Thu Jun  6 18:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with space/Ping!
References: <20020607013207.E1B9A279CE@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D00115B.2000400@att.net>

>
>
>>As I understand it, everything in the universe is supposed to have its
>>own mathematical locating formula, a zip code if you will. Tweakers
>>simply move a ship, a rock, or a planet, from one zip code to another.
>>Now, if someone knows how to do the engineering for this, I got a sweet deal for you...
>>

Check out Greg Bear's Forge of God / Anvil of Stars books,
especially the parts about "noach" communications.

The idea is that every elemental particle has a number of hidden bits
which determine its mass/velocity/charge/spin and so on. If you can
fiddle with these bits (using what he calls the "privileged bands") then
you can do some very interesting things with matter and energy.

Jonathan




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 20:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Jun  6 19:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Todays news
Message-ID: <3D001762.8D2EA784@mail.cswnet.com>

>Some "mentalist" guy has predicted that a UFO will arrive over Las >Vegas Nevada, USA tonight between 10:00 and 12:00.
<snipped>

>ObTrav:

> What if an Imperial Cruiser did appear over Vegas?

>Answers anyone?

>1. Ah man, we just came to party..

2. We're returning Elvis to you for One Night Only!

3. We came back to get the FUNK! Please direct us to Parliament
Funkadelic.

4. Your satelite tv is technologically superior to ours. We must have it
NOW!

5. Your medical technology is superior to ours. We taking Cher back as
an exhibit.

6. If we win the Wheel of Fortune slots, we get an extra glory point!

7. Same reason everyone else comes: Cheap Buffets!

8. We have come to fully laser Startrek: the Experience. Silly Humans!
What were you thinking?

9. Tom Jones: THE REAL EMPEROR.

and finally...

10. We're checking out the babes at the MGM. HOOO HAAAA!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 20:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Jun  6 19:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
In-Reply-To: <004c01c20dbe$f2b216a0$575d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20020607022945.20D7E279D5@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/07/02 at 11:01 AM,  "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> said:

>To make matters worse, the 'Age of Sail' was quite a long time, so
>you would probably need to pick a sub-period, at least to begin with.

Yep, personally I'd put a game on a different world...even if it had
the same geography...to break the "history" away from the real world.
I'd also make it early in the period rather than later, with few
handguns, short ranged cannon, and lots of sword swinging daring-do.

>Like I said: Hmm.

>OBTRAV:  well, of course, the 'Age of Sail' is one of the major
>analogies used in Traveller.  There's a lot of filing off the serial
>numbers possible between the two periods.

Yep, IMTU, too.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 20:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun  6 19:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT Heard on the news
Message-ID: <20020606.222833.-223759.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002 08:21:23 -0400 knightsky@juno.com writes:
> From what I understand, it wasn't that he was suspended for simply
being
> 'disrespectful' - in effect, he stated that a superior officer (the
> commander-in-chief) had knowingly allowed thousands of American
citizens
> to be murdered without doing anything to stop it.  That's the sort of
> accusation you need hard evidence to back up; simply making such claims
> in a public forum without any evidence is likely to get a military
officer canned.

Almost forgot to add... 

Obtrav: Santanocheev-Norris?  Not exactly the same thing, true, but it
does show the dangers of a soldier working contrary to his leader...


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"







________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 20:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Jun  6 19:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020605185733.009f1ba0@mindspring.com>
References: <F209IjxGq01wLMLCkgC00014efb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606223854.027fa008@192.168.0.1>

At 07:14 PM 6/5/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
[snip]
>Actually, grizzlies are being sighted up around Mt. Shasta.  Welcome back, 
>guys!  Yosemite is that way, go eat the Winnebago hordes.

Actually, it's the exception rather than the rule for me not to see bears 
when I'm at Yosemite.
I've seen black bears down in Curry Village.
I've also seen what they do to cars when the owners ignore the 'don't leave 
food in cars' signs.
The bears there recognize coolers as a source of food.

My favorite Yosemite bears are the ones from the Farley cartoon.
I bought my copy of "Fur and Loafing in Yosemite" at the lodge store before 
one of the Ranger talks.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vegetarian: An old Indian word that means "lousy hunter."
                www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 20:50:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Thu Jun  6 19:50:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Santanocheev
In-Reply-To: <20020606.222833.-223759.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000601c20dce$0350b480$0b01a8c0@duck>

> Obtrav: Santanocheev-Norris?  Not exactly the same thing, true, but it
> does show the dangers of a soldier working contrary to his leader...

This brings up a question I have after leafing through the JTAS Reprints.
What *did* Santanochev do that made Norris dump him?  I guess I am not
paying enough attention because I didn't pick it up.  What did he do?

Thanks

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 20:59:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun  6 19:59:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Santanocheev
Message-ID: <20020606.225250.-223759.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002 21:49:58 -0500 "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
writes:
> > Obtrav: Santanocheev-Norris?  Not exactly the same thing, true, but
it
> > does show the dangers of a soldier working contrary to his leader...
> 
> This brings up a question I have after leafing through the JTAS
Reprints.
> What *did* Santanochev do that made Norris dump him?  I guess I am not
> paying enough attention because I didn't pick it up.  What did he do?

My impression was that Santanochev's main crime, in addition to seemingly
want to 'take over' Norris's role, was being incredibly incompetent: 
look how much ground the Imperium lost during the early days of the 5FW
with Santanochev in charge.  It wasn't until Norris took over that the
tide started to turn.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 21:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun  6 20:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Todays news
Message-ID: <20020606.200724.-108699.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Thu, 06 Jun 2002 21:16:02 -0500 Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
writes:
> >Some "mentalist" guy has predicted that a UFO will arrive over Las 
> >Vegas Nevada, USA tonight between 10:00 and 12:00.
> <snipped>
> 
> >ObTrav:
> 
> > What if an Imperial Cruiser did appear over Vegas?
> 
> >Answers anyone?
> 

11. Hey man, is this where we sign up the Penguins for the Elvis
impersonation contest?



________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 21:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun  6 20:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Talk
Message-ID: <35.27d86a73.2a317fc8@aol.com>

>There were numerous times during the Clinton administration 
>where I heard officers openly talk of sedition.  

Nothing new about that. Marc told me once it came up a lot during Vietnam, 
and I suspect it's happened under every president.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 21:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun  6 20:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #576 - 26 msgs
Message-ID: <e6.2918b100.2a318253@aol.com>

>> They even took the U.S.S. Constitution out for a little cruise not too 
long
>> ago :)
>
>What, the frigate U.S.S Constitution, from like, the civil war?


1798 wasn't it?

I heard an interesting story about that. Seems to re-fit "Old Ironsides" you 
need 100+ year old oaks for some of the timbers, and there were none 
available that could be legally cut, the oldest remaining ones being on 
federal forests. But when hurricane Hugo knocked a bunch over a few years 
ago, someone in the Navy put in a claim for them, and the rest is history. 
Took them a few years to age properly, but they had the ship more seaworthy 
than it has been in years in time for her bicentenial.

>I wonder what the oldest serving, seaworthy vessel is... would the HMS 
>Victory survive an outing?

Dunno. Victory is older then Constitution by forty years or so.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 21:29:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Jun  6 20:29:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Talk
In-Reply-To: <35.27d86a73.2a317fc8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020607032800.26959279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/06/02 at 11:17 PM,  GDWGAMES@aol.com said:

>>There were numerous times during the Clinton administration 
>>where I heard officers openly talk of sedition.  

>Nothing new about that. Marc told me once it came up a lot during
>Vietnam,  and I suspect it's happened under every president.

Even Ike? <g>

In the TU, In the Imperium, I suspect you can say most anything you
want. You'll get away with it as long as "the man in charge" doesn't
mind, unlike the SC or Zhodane. 

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 21:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Jun  6 20:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Freedom of speech in the Imperium
References: <20020607013205.CE6C0279D2@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003f01c20dd5$14c8e320$505d8690@computer>

> From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
> I think rights arise out of the social contract, which I see as follows:
> The Imperium is a social contract among the Emperor, the nobility, and the
> member worlds.

IMTU, that would be the Emperor and the nobility, since the latter are the
ruling classes of the member worlds - even the democracies.

More generally, "worlds" can't be involved in "social contracts".  Only
people can do that.  These people will inevitably the ruling elites of the
worlds - the people who, IMTU, will be drafted into the nobility.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 21:37:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Jun  6 20:37:30 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Todays news
References: <20020607013205.CE6C0279D2@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004001c20dd5$15785d00$505d8690@computer>

> > >Also, once they go to know our various governments, which would the
> > >First Imperium prefer to deal with?

Eris:
> > I think they would probably prefer to deal with the Chinese.

Tim Reynolds:
> I thought Chinese at first, but probably India would be of more
> interest.

No.  The US, undoubtedly.  It's already the de facto planetary government,
is firmly in the hands of the megacorps, and <flamebait omitted>.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 22:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Thu Jun  6 21:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] deck planking from Old Ironsides, one use
In-Reply-To: <e6.2918b100.2a318253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CFFEAEB.26748.119B965@localhost>

not sure how they got thm, but at least one hugo award base has been made from 
deck planking from Old Ironsides

I saw this at I-Con one year, don't remember the authors name, but it given for a short 
story called "We Shall Drink a Fish Together"

that was a fun con, 3am sunday morning lobby filk with a bottle of tullamore don't, Joe 
Haldemen and Charles and Mary De Lint, and maybe half a dozen fans

Joe Haldeman is a wonderful musician, with such subtle tastes in lyrics


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 22:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Jun  6 21:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Todays news
In-Reply-To: <004001c20dd5$15785d00$505d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20020607042412.B25E7279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/07/02 at 01:37 PM,  "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> said:

>> > >Also, once they go to know our various governments, which would the
>> > >First Imperium prefer to deal with?

>Eris:
>> > I think they would probably prefer to deal with the Chinese.

>Tim Reynolds:
>> I thought Chinese at first, but probably India would be of more
>> interest.

>No.  The US, undoubtedly.  It's already the de facto planetary
>government, is firmly in the hands of the megacorps, and <flamebait
>omitted>.

Oh, they'd deal with the US, as the "de facto planetary government",
but the question is who they would *prefer* to deal with. The Chinese
would better fit the Vilani style, I think...more sympatico. We
Americans would probably trouble the Vilani a *lot*...no doubt,
leading to a series of Interstellar Wars. <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun  6 22:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun  6 21:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] All Psi party
Message-ID: <OF53E432F3.DB45CD9D-ONCA256BD1.001829D8@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Late reply to a month-old query:
> Two of these These guys are Zhodani in disguise
>making a hasty trip through the Imperium down to an
>obscure place in the Reavers Deep that is thought to
>be an old forgotten(due to the long night) Vilani
>Repository of Knowledge that cocentrated mainly on
>psionics and workings of the brain. Also, here is an
[snip]
>They've been careful about they're powers when in
>public, problem is I haven't taken them anywhere for
>long enough, for it to be too much of a problem yet.
[snip]
>What happens if they run
>into Psis that are Imperial citizens?

A classic plotline like this must surely have one or two _other_ groups 
after the same thing (and 'natch, they all arrive at the same time - think 
"Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade"). Presumably, _they_ would also be 
all-psi parties. Examples include a Droyne oytrip, or a delegation from a 
number of Imperial Psi Institutes. There may even be a Naval Intel officer 
from Wypoc in the latter group, one who detected your Zho's back in the 
Marches, cobbled together a group of pursuers, and are chasing down your 
PCs!

Now THAT would be something - not just an all-psi party, but a combat 
session involving multiple all-psi characters!

Recommendation: read "The Hostile Stars" by Fred Ramen for the best view 
of Trav psionics I have ever read. It's available in the Raconteurs Rest 
section of the Freelance Traveller site:
        http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/stories/index.html

Fun, fun, fun!

;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 02:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Jun  7 01:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sylean Wedge Fries
In-Reply-To: <3f.c54c597.2a2bb3fa@aol.com>
References: <3f.c54c597.2a2bb3fa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020607101842.71e46683.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Sun, 02 Jun 2002 13:46:34 -0400 (EDT)
GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> It'll be a pretty quiet stay in that bunker, then, based on the thundering 
> silence the last three times I've brought up this very same point (that the 
> "flying wedge" is Sylean) over the last ten years...

Ah, it all makes sense now. Certain Terran movies are really early examples of anti-Sylean propaganda. This kind of covert influence caused the Terrans to react violently to the Vilani (mistaking them for the Syleans), with well known effects.

The only piece of the puzzle missing is what the Hivers gained from creating the Long Night.

/Spacejens

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 02:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Fri Jun  7 01:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller software
References: <ML-2.3.1023139547.113.ajackson@ping> <000801c20d57$912daa00$d300a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <000201c20dfe$7a5a7cc0$2d00a8c0@imogen>

Check out the screenshots at ...

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol/traveller/software/screenshot.html

Beta testers wanted!

Contact me for details.



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 02:37:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Jun  7 01:37:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Talk
Message-ID: <200206070835.BAA28280@ping.iii.com>

"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com> writes:

>In the TU, In the Imperium, I suspect you can say most anything you
>want. You'll get away with it as long as "the man in charge" doesn't
>mind, unlike the SC or Zhodane. 

Why do people insist on thinking that the Imperium is some sort of 
free state?  Remember, the average law level of the Imperium is 9,
which is in fact about the same as the Solomani and Zhodani.

It's probably true that the Imperium doesn't do much to restrict speech,
but that has more to do with the fact that for the most part the Imperium
doesn't directly rule over individuals than with any special regard for
free speech.  Within the extrality zone, the starport administrator is
perfectly free to shut people up, though he doesn't have to.  Outside the
extrality zone, free speech is the domain of the local world government,
and presumably corresponds to the local law level.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 03:28:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Jun  7 02:28:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Left the military because of Clinton...
In-Reply-To: <20020606130208.5BBCB279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17GG1s-0001SV-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>

"Maksim-Smelchak" <max200@lanset.com> wrote:

> I left the military because of Clinton...
> 
> He screwed over our veterans, Korea, Vietnam, W.W.I.I., you name it...

He also did a hell of a lot of good for retirees.  I don't know the 
details because none of it affects me, but my dad (retired Air 
Force) now has *way* better medical coverage than he ever had 
before, for *far* less money because of some plan called Tricare 
that Clinton passed just before he left office.  

I didn't have much respect for a fake liberal (ie he talked vaguely 
like a liberal and acted far more like a middle of the road 
conservative) like Clinton, but a number of the things he passed in 
his last month or two in office were *damn* good things (Tricare, 
protecting lots of old growth forests from logging...) 

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 03:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Jun  7 02:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT Heard on the news
In-Reply-To: <20020607013205.CE6C0279D2@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17GGEc-00070A-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>

Jerry Hill <jhill@floridadigital.net> wrote:

> Via Google News (news.google.com), here's an article about the
> incident: http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/news/0602/05colonel.html
> 
> Apparently Air Force Lt. Col. Steve Butler wrote a letter to The
> (Montery County) Herald wherein he said "[Bush] did nothing to warn
> the American people because he needed this war on terrorism," Butler
> wrote. "His daddy had Saddam and he needed Osama. His presidency was
> going nowhere. ... This guy is a joke."

I doubt the guy is correct (but he might be), but Bush is certainly 
reaping the benefits of Bin Laden's actions.  By suspending this 
officer, Bush and company continue to erode our freedoms one by 
one, in the name of "national security", "safety" and of course 
"patriotism".  The Office of Homeland Security (soon to be a 
Cabinet Level position) still reminds me *way* too much of Babylon 
5's Nightwatch, I'm still waiting for the armbands to start showing 
up.

Ob Trav, nothing except perhaps watching a Government Code go 
from 4 to (my guess) 3.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 04:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Fri Jun  7 03:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What if..? (Was OT: Todays news
Message-ID: <F47urtZPkZyVUp4AghT00000e0d@hotmail.com>



Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> asked :

> >  What if an Imperial Cruiser did appear over Vegas?
>
Initially, mass panic, robbery and looting; world governments would collapse 
overnight and an enlightened Terran Council would take their place.  Over a 
few months Earthlings would accept their place in the new scheme of things, 
and everybody would live happily ever after.
Oh, and several hundred RPG fanatics would go hoarse yelling "Please tell us 
you ain't from the Reformation Coalition!"  (g,d,r)

>Just imagine what would happen if an obviously extra-terrestrial craft
>landed (Vegas or wherever) and *humans* came out of the ship.  What would
>the press, governments and scientists do if actual extraterrestrial humans
>were to appear?

Run around shouting "Klaatu borada Nikto" or start humming the theme from 
CE3K?

>
>I imagine they wouldn't believe they were human at first, but after proving
>they were, what would the reation be?
>
"Where's Elvis?" or "Can we interest you in Timeshare?".  Or, possibly, 
"Hey, any McDonalds where you come from?"

>
>Also, once they go to know our various governments, which would the First
>Imperium prefer to deal with?
>
Hmm, rock one side, hard place the other.  Um, none of them?  If it's the 
Traveller Imperium, possibly the United Nations council.  If it was the Star 
Wars Empire, they would probably just install their own...
(If it was GURPS:Traveller, mebbe they'd go for the Illuminati??)

I now return you to your regularly-scheduled mail.

Jeff (the Unique)
ps can someone please send me Digests 572 & 573?  I seem to have missed them 
somehow...

"It is better to travel hopefully than to arrive" - ancient Terran proverb.
"Huh - ancient Terrans must've flown on Tukera ships then" - ancient 
ImperialLines airframe engineer.



_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 04:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Jun  7 03:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sylean Wedge Fries
References: <3f.c54c597.2a2bb3fa@aol.com> <20020607101842.71e46683.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <003201c20e10$60df2ea0$79d293c3@martinjd>

> The only piece of the puzzle missing is what the Hivers gained from
creating the Long Night.

A little bit of peace & quiet?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 05:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Jun  7 04:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Re: Imperial nobility
References: <20020606130210.0ABE3279CE@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D009A7C.685D3BAB@earthlink.net>

I've come into this thread rather late but I wanted
to ask a question that may have already been answered.

Has anyone consolidated all the published material on
Imperial nobility? Is it available anywhere on the web?

David Smart


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 05:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Jun  7 04:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV84RtKdLWPo08EOTq0001acff@hotmail.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606075017.02571970@pop.wizard.net>

I don't have anything positive to contribute to the description of Gary 
Gygax' past behavior, although I have spent a few hours in his company 
spread over the years at various cons.  To my knowledge, I've never met 
Arneson.  But I have known several people who did and who were favorably 
impressed with his personality.  ObTrav:  I have nothing but flattering 
things to say about Marc Miller, who conducted himself in a friendly and 
gentlemanly manner every time I've encountered him at conventions from the 
1970s onwards.

Marc's enviably gracious public conduct is itself partly responsible for my 
loyalty to Traveller over the last quarter century.  Of course, I've judged 
the game primarily on its own merits in my eyes as a game, but the image 
created by the primary author of the game was good helpful in marketing it 
to me.  And I think was a significant influence on the conduct of other 
people who were mainstays in designing and publishing the game or its 
various fanzines and licensed products.

Also, I have only met Loren Weisman in person very briefly once or twice at 
cons a long time ago and did not form much of an impression from such 
fleeting encounters.  He has behaved with grace and wit during the years 
I've read his work and his participation on the TML.  Again, I think the 
personality of the designer reflects well on the products he has designed 
and has been a useful marketing support.

Marc and Loren are two more reasons I am glad to be involved in Traveller 
in my tiny way all this time.  I wish there were other well-known game 
designers I would like to say as much about.  (The TML participants have 
proved to be another reason I've been glad to be involved in Traveller, 
also.  :-)

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 05:42:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Jun  7 04:42:35 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <3CC499EA.1020901@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <20020422.182802.-145167.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606081349.01dd2d60@pop.wizard.net>

Bruce Johnson:
>I never said they were the only source, merely the first _wildly 
>successful_ one. Quality is no guarantee of success, witness MS Windows 
>and AOL.
>
>Neither of them were the first in their genre, nor even the best, but 
>there is little doubt that they are the 800 pound gorillas of the market.
>
>D&D may not have been pure in a mechanical sense, but like BASIC, and 'You 
>have SPAM!' it is now the de-facto standard of comparison..the reason it 
>got there is because it was 'the fustest with the mostest'.
>
>(says an old-timer who remembers back when 'September on the Net' actually 
>meant that it was, indeed, September...ahh those halcyon pre-AOL, 
>pre-Prodigy, pre-Compuserv days...)

I think of _online services_, AOL was the best.  It provided ease of use 
and many attractive features that Prodigy and CompuServ did not.  Including 
being much more scalable to huge numbers of customers, at a time when 
having a higher number of other users on your service was in fact a 
plus.  If you quarrel with AOL's quality as an ISP, I concede that there is 
an argument there, but do not concede an open and shut case.  Consider that 
over a third of the packets on the entire Internet pass through AOL, and 
then look at their metrics.  Reliability, thy name is AOL.  Who do you 
propose as a more ideal ISP?  Will you still hold this other ISP up as so 
superior once it, too, has ten or twenty million users and most of those 
users are casual users with no training nor indoctrination into what 
ARPAnet veterans consider "proper" use?

Do you blame AOL for the creation of spam or perpetuating it?  I blame two 
immigration lawyers in I think it was Arizona for inventing spam.  And 
AOL's postmaster at the time did a remarkably effective job of combating 
spam.  In fact, during the first full calendar year after the invention of 
spam, postmaster@aol.com was voted postmaster of the year by the 
postmasters on the Internet.  Because of his hard work, dedication to 
making the service "do the right thing", intelligence, and leadership of 
his entire team.  (He's also a really nice guy and a long-time player of 
RPGs, but he left AOL about three years ago.  :-)  Or perhaps you are 
blaming AOL as the origin of spam because you aren't reading the headers 
closely enough on the spam you receive?  Spammers very commonly use AOL as 
their favorite spoofed domain name of origin.  If some other domain had ten 
or twenty million users instead of AOL, you can bet that other domain would 
be what showed up as the spoofed domain name of origin.  Many people 
erroneously blame AOL for hosting spammers because the spammers are 
spoofing their address.  The only way that AOL perpetuates spam is to 
provide the Internet with over twenty million users as the target for 
spam.  If AOL didn't exist, those targets would just be somewhere else.  I 
could go on even more about AOL and spam, but I won't except to say that I 
doubt any domain out there is a bigger enemy of spammers than AOL has been.

And I speak as a person who used to own the metoo@aol.com address.  I have 
a funny sense of humor when it comes to posting on usenet newsgroups.  :->

The truly glorious thing about the Internet has always been the complete 
peer-to-peer interactivity of every single user on the 'net, no matter how 
many of us there are.  It's as purely democratic as any large enterprise 
around.  And the more people participate, the healthier that is.  Even if 
those people aren't elite .edu users who have taken many credit hours of 
classes on the dos and don'ts of computers in general and the Internet.

September on the Internet has always been a somewhat trying and exciting, 
sometimes frustrating experience.  But one that I welcome, because it means 
more people receiving the gift of this wonderful communication and 
education tool and more people who I can communicate with and maybe learn 
from.  It's always worth the price to me, and I always hope that others see 
it the same way.  Similarly, I am grateful for AOL bringing so many people 
to the Internet who otherwise are too frustrated trying to learn the 
intricacies of different applications and different protocols to get online 
and reach out through cyberspace.  I look down on the various university 
teachers who I've heard about who on their _very first day of class_ began 
teaching utter computer neophytes that they should look down on all AOLers 
for their ignorance, even though many of those students remained more 
ignorant than many AOLers at the end of their course they did carry away 
that one basic prejudice at least.

The founders of the Internet and the people who love it most dearly seem to 
ultimately found their love upon one basic precept.  That information is 
good and sharing information is better.  I know AOL's internal architecture 
and how it connects to the Internet and its architecture.  I also know 
AOL's proprietary client software (heh, I'm literally wearing the tee shirt 
to prove it) and have almost as good a knowledge of other client software 
used for popular Internet services like email, FTP, usenet, and WWW 
browsing and have a passing knowledge of some of the server software used 
for those same things.  In some ways, AOL as a strictly online service, 
even if it were disconnected from the Internet has advantages for the 
Internet.  Except that being isolated is bad.  Anyway, I was going to say 
that the basic spirit of the Internet is for all users to be able to share 
information with each other as peers and that means I love my AOL brothers 
and sisters as much as my bbn.net or mit.edu or darpa.gov or whoever 
brothers and sisters.

In fact...:::Laning steps up to everyone connected to the Internet and 
wraps them all in one massive, drunkenly affectionate hug:::..."I love you, 
man."

ObTrav:  As each new world is added to the X-boat-based Interstellarnet, 
imagine the reactions from various people on the worlds who have been on 
the Interstellarnet longer.  Including the reactions of relatively neophyte 
or unsophisticated or ignorant users on those veteran worlds.  Even when 
the new world has a mature and well-run internet of its own with billions 
of users for hundreds of years, but happens to be new to the 
Interstellarnet.  Oh, how the flames will fly.

[I could write an even longer post about the many failures and faults in 
AOL, but I do not see a better online service out there nor do I see any 
way to blame AOL for the existence of spam.]

[No, I am not calling bashers of AOL names.  Well, maybe ignorant.  But 
please remember there is a difference between ignorant and 
stupid.  Ignorant means not possessing information, but does not attempt to 
imply it is willful lack of knowledge.  Stupid means unable to 
learn.  There is no crime, inferiority of character, nor offense in being 
ignorant unless one chooses that state deliberately.]

--Laning
"How many goodly creatures are there here!
  How beauteous mankind is!  O brave new world,
  That has such people in't."
-'The Tempest' by William Shakespeare


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 06:38:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Jun  7 05:38:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Left the military because of Clinton...
In-Reply-To: <E17GG1s-0001SV-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <20020606130208.5BBCB279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607083630.02630eb0@192.168.0.1>

At 02:24 AM 6/7/2002 -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
[snip]
>I didn't have much respect for a fake liberal (ie he talked vaguely
>like a liberal and acted far more like a middle of the road
>conservative) like Clinton, but a number of the things he passed in
>his last month or two in office were *damn* good things (Tricare,
>protecting lots of old growth forests from logging...)

"Passed" by signing what made it through congress or "Passed" by executive 
order?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"The Clintonites, like pod people from a "Star Trek" adventure, have peeled
off the thin layer of centrist rhetoric that they wore for the presidential
campaign. We now learn that they are people genetically bred to inhabit the
public sector. Their oxygen source is the moisture of taxes, which are 
remitted
by the aliens in the private sector." -- Wall Street Journal February 19, 1993
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 06:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeffrey Malone)
Date: Fri Jun  7 05:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Known Stars in the Solomani Rim
References: <20522.040554.8W4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <001501c20e22$28c0dc00$c47054d2@1338700057>

In a fit of either insanity or foolishness (if not both), I am having a bash
at re-engineering a 3D version of the Solomani Rim (using  a cubic sector
with 40 parsec sides, comprised of 8 sub-sectors with 20 parsec sides) using
RW astronomical data.  On the basis of number crunching thus far, this will
involve around 3200 stars in 2150 systems (after accounting for binaries,
trianaries and quartets - based on stats derived from the MT extended system
generation mechanics).

I have a distant recollection of a HIWG document that linked systems in the
Solomani Rim with RW stars, but I haven't been able to locate it.  If anyone
can give me a pointer to it (if it still exists), it would be greatly
appreciated.

J.M. Malone


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 07:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bernie McGeehan)
Date: Fri Jun  7 06:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Todays news
In-Reply-To: <20020606.133530.-79249.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020607135732.75947.qmail@web13402.mail.yahoo.com>

Vegas! those idiots, I said Boston, dammit!....now how
am I goning to get a flight to Vegas on this kind of
notice...I mean, who'll feed the cats???
--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> Some "mentalist" guy has predicted that a UFO will
> arrive over Las Vegas
> Nevada, USA tonight between 10:00 and 12:00.
> He is so adamant about it that he will give
> $50,000.00 US dollars to
> charity if wrong.
>  Reported on KOVR13 news at noon, Sacramento, Ca.
> 
> ObTrav:
> 
>  What if an Imperial Cruiser did appear over Vegas?
> 
> Answers anyone?
> 
> 1. Ah man, we just came to party..
> 
> 2.
> 
> 
> ..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-  
> .-..   .-..       ---  
> -.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..  
> --..--       .--  
> ....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   - 
>  ....   -.--       -
>   ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..  
> ...   .   -..   ---...
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
xGSV The Cheque is in the Email (Keep looking, sucker-class)
 "If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten." - George Carlin

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 07:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Jun  7 06:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TCS like web-game looking for a good home
Message-ID: <OFD7CCD3A7.48B051EE-ON85256BD1.00470D80@lotus.com>

--0__=0ABBE142DFD48B108f9e8a93df938690918c0ABBE142DFD48B10
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

                                                                                                               
                                                                                                               
                                                                                                               


Roseberry writes:
>1. A permanent IP would be helpfull.
That's an attribute of "a good home" the subject line is referring to.

>how to unlock units/fleets previously locked
Sorry. No can do. Locked designs are open for other people to use. If
someone uses your ship in their fleet, and then you go and change it, you
break their fleet. The only possibility might be for a locked ship (or
fleet) that isn't being used anywhere to be allowed to be unlocked.

>A more extensive Help/Intro section for newbies like me.
Well, currently there is a help screen for each page. If you feel it needs
more, can you, perhaps, be a bit more specific on what features you think
need to be described more?

>4. On the Units, something showing what your unit will be like when your
>finished with it WITHOUT locking it in.
I'm not aware of any additional information you get for a locked unit that
isn't there when the unit is not locked. The normal design process is to
design a unit, design a fleet, test fight the fleet against any of your own
fleets (locked or not) or other people's locked fleets. Once you are happy
with everything you can lock the ships, lock the fleet, and enter it into a
league.
Can you be more specific about what you mean by "what your unit will be
like"?

Thanks,

Joe
--0__=0ABBE142DFD48B108f9e8a93df938690918c0ABBE142DFD48B10
Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Disposition: inline

<html><body>
<p><font face="Courier New">Roseberry writes:<br>
&gt;1. A permanent IP would be helpfull.</font><br>
<font face="Courier New">That's an attribute of &quot;a good home&quot; the subject line is referring to.<br>
<br>
&gt;how to unlock units/fleets previously locked</font><br>
<font face="Courier New">Sorry. No can do. Locked designs are open for other people to use. If someone uses your ship in their fleet, and then you go and change it, you break their fleet. The only possibility might be for a locked ship (or fleet) that isn't being used anywhere to be allowed to be unlocked.</font><br>
<br>
<font face="Courier New">&gt;A more extensive Help/Intro section for newbies like me.</font><br>
<font face="Courier New">Well, currently there is a help screen for each page. If you feel it needs more, can you, perhaps, be a bit more specific on what features you think need to be described more?<br>
<br>
&gt;4. On the Units, something showing what your unit will be like when your<br>
&gt;finished with it WITHOUT locking it in.<br>
I'm not aware of any additional information you get for a locked unit that isn't there when the unit is not locked. The normal design process is to design a unit, design a fleet, test fight the fleet against any of your own fleets (locked or not) or other people's locked fleets. Once you are happy with everything you can lock the ships, lock the fleet, and enter it into a league.</font><br>
<font face="Courier New">Can you be more specific about what you mean by &quot;what your unit will be like&quot;?</font><br>
<br>
<font face="Courier New">Thanks,</font><br>
<br>
<font face="Courier New">Joe</font></body></html>
--0__=0ABBE142DFD48B108f9e8a93df938690918c0ABBE142DFD48B10--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 08:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Jun  7 07:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Talk
References: <20020607113506.5DD59279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c20e2d$c514ff40$d45d8690@computer>

> From: "Eris Reddoch"
> Even Ike? <g>

Of course not.  Ike was the Military-Industrial Complex's best friend. : )

It would have been interesting to have asked MacArthur what his opinion of
Ike was, though.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 08:12:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Jun  7 07:12:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
Message-ID: <002b01c20e2d$c5e60ae0$d45d8690@computer>

> From: "Eris Reddoch"
> Yep, personally I'd put a game on a different world...even if it had
> the same geography...to break the "history" away from the real world.

I dunno.  It would be really cool to play a "Flashman" type game, where your
characters kind of blunder through all the important bits of history.  Think
about a game that takes PCs through the American and French Revolutions, the
Napoleonic Wars, the war against the Barbary Pirates, and the War of 1812.
They'd be pretty old by the end, so you might have to skip the American
Revolution, but the others are all quite viable.

It would be _very_ hard to run, though.

Alan Bradley abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 08:13:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Jun  7 07:13:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Santanocheev
Message-ID: <002c01c20e2d$c6d10720$d45d8690@computer>

From: knightsky@juno.com
> My impression was that Santanochev's main crime, in addition to seemingly
> want to 'take over' Norris's role, was being incredibly incompetent:
> look how much ground the Imperium lost during the early days of the 5FW
> with Santanochev in charge.  It wasn't until Norris took over that the
> tide started to turn.

Norris mysteriously disappeared for a while, presumably while trying to find
the Imperial Warrant.  Senior nobles don't do that kind of thing without a
reason.  The power struggle was obviously very serious.

Alan Bradley abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 08:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark A Nordstrand)
Date: Fri Jun  7 07:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Talk
References: <20020607113506.5DD59279BB@mail.travellercentral.com> <002a01c20e2d$c514ff40$d45d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3D00D5EC.5D0EB993@visi.com>

Alan Bradley wrote:
> 
> > From: "Eris Reddoch"
> > Even Ike? <g>
> 
> Of course not.  Ike was the Military-Industrial Complex's best friend. : )
> 
Oh?  Take a look at his farewell address.


-- 
Mark

Nobody reads these anymore.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 08:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Jun  7 07:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
Message-ID: <memo.60400@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <002b01c20e2d$c5e60ae0$d45d8690@computer>
Greetings dear hearts.

Like Alan, I'd prefer to run such a game in THIS world, not an imaginary 
one. If I want to swash my buckle in an alternate reality, I get my copy 
of '7th Sea' off the shelf.

The thing I have in mind will be based around the various 'age of sail' 
seafaring novels such as Hornblower, Ramage and Bolitho, although PCs may 
be American settlers - Damn Colonials! - or pirates, explorers or traders, 
not just Naval personnel. The timeline runs from 1776 to 1815, and - for 
those who do join the Navy - there will be opportunity to engage in the 
major historic battles, as well as the smaller-scale adventures and 
missions that are possible.

It's early days yet, and not remotely connected with Traveller, so I'd 
better shut up. Anyway, I'm supposed to be writing a couple of scenarios 
about witches at the moment...

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 08:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Jun  7 07:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Trav = Silly = Doug Berry
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17C07@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3D017248.13501.1535900@localhost>

On 4 Jun 2002, at 16:28, Hughes, Michael wrote:

> Perhaps the Silly Site would be a could storage mechanism for Stoopid
> Traveller Stories? Whaddya think Doug? Will you take submissions?

How about "Silly things characters have said or done (AKA 
Traveller Darwin awards)".

I'll start the ball rolling with:

Refering to the Vargr corsair holding you hostage as "Lassie's lost 
love child"

Using the Aslan mercenary company's "Shrine of Heros" as a 
bathroom

(And my all time favourite)

Openning the pressure hatch to check if the L-Hyd tank really had 
shattered

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 08:58:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Jun  7 07:58:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Marine Brainwashing (Was Re:Picky, picky...)
In-Reply-To: <005101c20c35$0257be60$46b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3D017248.13596.153590A@localhost>

On 5 Jun 2002, at 11:36, Alan Bradley wrote:

> > From: Douglas Berry
> >Anyway, we all know that the United States Infantry is the best..<g,
> >d, r!>

> As proven at Buna, Gona, Sanananda, and, of course, Kasserine Pass.. 

One has to be truely amazed at the ability of the US military in the 
2nd WW to take world beating raw manpower (probably the best of 
any combantant), give them lavish state of the art equipment and 
lengthy realistic training; and turn them into a mediocre fighting 
force.

<my turn to gdr>

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 09:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Jun  7 08:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Todays news
In-Reply-To: <3D001762.8D2EA784@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020607081415.009fe820@mindspring.com>

At 09:16 PM 6/6/02 -0500, you wrote:
>10. We're checking out the babes at the MGM. HOOO HAAAA!

11. "We wish to speak to Gil Grissom of the Las Vegas Police Crime Lab. 
Now. Have him bring Kat, she's hot!."

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 09:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Jun  7 08:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
References: <F209IjxGq01wLMLCkgC00014efb@hotmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020606223854.027fa008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3D00CFC3.4080802@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:

> My favorite Yosemite bears are the ones from the Farley cartoon.
> I bought my copy of "Fur and Loafing in Yosemite" at the lodge store 
> before one of the Ranger talks.

LOL another Farley fan...I'll have to look that one up...we have 'We're 
Only Here for the Season'.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 09:23:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Jun  7 08:23:38 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Todays news
In-Reply-To: <004001c20dd5$15785d00$505d8690@computer>
References: <20020607013205.CE6C0279D2@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020607081601.009fc130@mindspring.com>

At 01:37 PM 6/7/02 +1000, you wrote:
>No.  The US, undoubtedly.  It's already the de facto planetary government,
>is firmly in the hands of the megacorps, and <flamebait omitted>.

We also have been producing more EM noise for longer periods. Our 
population centers are more noticeable because of it.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Music is a religion. Karaoke is a cult."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 09:24:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Jun  7 08:24:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Santanocheev
In-Reply-To: <000601c20dce$0350b480$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <20020606.222833.-223759.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020607081845.00a01500@mindspring.com>

At 09:49 PM 6/6/02 -0500, you wrote:
>This brings up a question I have after leafing through the JTAS Reprints.
>What *did* Santanochev do that made Norris dump him?  I guess I am not
>paying enough attention because I didn't pick it up.  What did he do?

He was incompetent. Santanochev failed to react to the Zhodani invasion, 
and then formulated a strategy that left the Imperium fighting a 
poorly-conceived defensive battle.  He also listened to the inbred and 
inefficient Naval Intelligence apparatus in the Marches.

Norris sacked him, and took direct control of the fleet.


--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

_Law & Order: Sport Utility Vehicle_
"On the road of life, there are two separate yet equally important
groups - the passengers who ride in vehicles and the people who drive
them...  These are their stories.  <SFX: honk honk>" - Ed Dravecky III


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 09:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Fri Jun  7 08:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] WOEIH? (Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #573 - 24 msgs)
Message-ID: <F19iFqX5KST7y6HYxNK000011d6@hotmail.com>

As in, What On Earth Is Happening??

I've had replies *in Digests* before the post I sent..??  Don't tell me- it 
is the critical mass of the World Cup on the Internet that's causing Email 
Dilation, as hinted at by Albert OneGlass.

>From: tml-request@travellercentral.com

>Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #573 Message: 15
<<SNIP>>From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 14:27:34 +0000


>
>"The Final Countdown."  I have the poster up in the hallway. The date was
>December 6th, 1941, the day before the attack.
>
Um, thanks Doug, I already knew *that* date - I just wasn't sure if it *was* 
Pearl Harbor, or one of the other famous WW2 battles between America and 
Japan...

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 09:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Jun  7 08:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller software
References: <ML-2.3.1023139547.113.ajackson@ping> <000801c20d57$912daa00$d300a8c0@imogen> <000201c20dfe$7a5a7cc0$2d00a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <3D00D3E4.8010209@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:
> Check out the screenshots at ...
> 
> http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol/traveller/software/screenshot.html
> 
> Beta testers wanted!
> 
> Contact me for details.

Windows only?


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 09:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Fri Jun  7 08:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Todays news
References: <20020607013205.CE6C0279D2@mail.travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020607081601.009fc130@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D00D7F6.7050007@gmx.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 01:37 PM 6/7/02 +1000, you wrote:
>
>> No.  The US, undoubtedly.  It's already the de facto planetary 
>> government,
>> is firmly in the hands of the megacorps, and <flamebait omitted>.
>
>
> We also have been producing more EM noise for longer periods. Our 
> population centers are more noticeable because of it.
>
>
You say this like it's a good thing...quantity does not equal quality 
<g,d,r>  If it wasn't fo local laws the only local content on aussie 
screens would (probably) be the news...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 09:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Jun  7 08:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1023400365.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1023399877.6838.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020607082217.00a084d0@mindspring.com>

At 02:52 PM 6/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Anthony Jackson writes:
> > Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:
>
> > > I wish you'd not call the cause of freedom the cause of slavery...
> >
> > I wish you'd not call the cause of freedom the cause of slavery...
>
>To be less elliptical, I wish you'd excise the phrase 'war of northern
>aggression' from your lexicon.

Especially since the South mobilized, and fired, first.  Most of the early 
parts of the war were fought in Union territory.

ObTrav: Solomani opinions of the Rim War.  What do they call it?  How do 
they explain the fall of Terra?  Are they like the North Koreans, assuming 
that the war is just in a long quiet period?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 10:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How We View History
Message-ID: <200206071607.HYI08066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry asks
>ObTrav: Solomani opinions of the Rim War.  What do they call 
>it?  How do they explain the fall of Terra?  Are they like 
>the North Koreans, assuming that the war is just in a long 
>quiet period?
>

My great-aunt (now deceased for more than a decade) knew 
better how to express things to avoid flames (flames can 
happen in verbal conversation as well as mailing lists).  She 
used to refer to the American Civil War as "the recent 
unpleasantness".  I tend to refer to wars by their names, but 
that varies as well.  The former Soviet Union refers to WW II 
as The Great Patriotic War, and technically, the Korean War 
is not over.  Many youth, some generations down the road, 
will only know (if they care at all) the names given in some 
old history text.  I've spoken to quite a few teenagers, and 
most of them are completely ignorant of major historical 
events, let alone wars.  I can't imagine that humanity in the 
Far Future would do much better.  As a young man in the 
Empire, would I know more about the specs for the latest 
model of grav board, or would I know more about the 
internecine machinations of the Spinward Marches nobility 
over the last 100 years?  Yeah, yeah, Fifth Frontier War...  
Name two prominent historical figures from the FFW, and write 
a three page essay on their role and importance in the War.  

There might even be a History Channel (or equivalent) show 
on "WEAPONS OF THE FIFTH FRONTIER WAR". This week's 
episode: "DEEP MESON SITES".  Probably would get better 
ratings, especially on reruns, than "Norris, Duke of Regina".

Me, I'm waiting for the future equivalent of Gilbert and 
Sullivan - that would probably be my permanent impression of 
Imperial Wars and Imperial Nobility.
________________
"Yes, it's your fault this time.  You had your chance the first time around to donate to the Anakin Skywalker Acting Fund."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 10:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606075017.02571970@pop.wizard.net>
References: <DAV84RtKdLWPo08EOTq0001acff@hotmail.com>
 <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020607083951.009ec780@mindspring.com>

At 08:03 AM 6/6/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I don't have anything positive to contribute to the description of Gary 
>Gygax' past behavior, although I have spent a few hours in his company 
>spread over the years at various cons.  To my knowledge, I've never met 
>Arneson.  But I have known several people who did and who were favorably 
>impressed with his personality.  ObTrav:  I have nothing but flattering 
>things to say about Marc Miller, who conducted himself in a friendly and 
>gentlemanly manner every time I've encountered him at conventions from the 
>1970s onwards.

My wife (who isn't really much of a gamer, but tried it at my urging) and I 
attended the Origins held in San Jose ('93? '94?) At one point, she let me 
know that she had been invited to play Magic with "some guys" and was 
leaving my to chat with this big guy named Loren at the GDW booth.

I later wandered over to see Kirsten playing Magic with Peter Adkison and 
Richard Garfield.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 10:17:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:17:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Talk
In-Reply-To: <35.27d86a73.2a317fc8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020607083718.00a0de80@mindspring.com>

At 11:17 PM 6/6/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >There were numerous times during the Clinton administration
> >where I heard officers openly talk of sedition.
>
>Nothing new about that. Marc told me once it came up a lot during Vietnam,
>and I suspect it's happened under every president.

I can vouch for it happening under Reagan.  One of my fire-team leaders 
went into Grenada with the 82nd, and had very few good things to say about 
our Commander-in-Chief.  Cpl. Knuckles (his real name, I swear!) and I got 
along fabulously.

The rule is, you can have an opinion, you just can't announce it to the 
civilian public.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 10:19:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:19:05 2002
Subject: SRW was Re: [TML] Ship lifetimes
References: <ML-2.3.1023399877.6838.ajackson@ping> <5.1.0.14.2.20020607082217.00a084d0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D00DC82.6000108@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> ObTrav: Solomani opinions of the Rim War.  What do they call it?  How do 
> they explain the fall of Terra?  Are they like the North Koreans, 
> assuming that the war is just in a long quiet period?

Some of them, certainly.

Remember, they lost The Homeland in a bitter, brutal, protracted battle. 
It has remained under the hated Impies' military rule until recently.

I would suspect that the Solomani look upon the SRW like the most rabid 
Cuban-Americans look upon Castro's revolution.

Only with *more* bitterness and anger.

Tieing this in with recent Traveller TNS dispatches, I suspect that the 
anger and division in the Solomani cause may be finally boiling to the 
surface.

There are few actual statements to this effect, but this is a damned 
good excuse for the Solomani sphere to tear itself apart violently. The 
power structure could repress it for a while, but eventually the 
pressure built until they could no longer control it.

Now you have factions wanting to move on, and others wanting to 
re-ignite the war, willing to fight to the last drop of their 
compatriots' blood.

And Solsec is having to become even more opressive to contain it, while 
their hold on power is being challenged by the Party and the Navy.

Now we get the Rebllion without destroying the Imperium.

'Double, double, toil and trouble'...one wonders if there is indeed a 
Macbeth right now, certain of his destiny, plotting in the Sphere right 
now...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 10:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <3D00CFC3.4080802@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <F209IjxGq01wLMLCkgC00014efb@hotmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020606223854.027fa008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020607091746.009f0e20@mindspring.com>

At 08:22 AM 6/7/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
>
>>My favorite Yosemite bears are the ones from the Farley cartoon.
>>I bought my copy of "Fur and Loafing in Yosemite" at the lodge store 
>>before one of the Ranger talks.
>
>LOL another Farley fan...I'll have to look that one up...we have 'We're 
>Only Here for the Season'.

Farley books I don't own?  Horrors!  Farley is the first thing I read in 
the Chronicle each morning.

(For the confused, Phil Frank moved his nationally syndicated comic 
"Travels with Farley" to SF about 20 years ago. It appears in the front 
section, and features many of the characters from the old series, including 
a quartet of bears who run the "Fog City Dumpster, where the elite with 
four feet meet to eat."  The bears tend to summer at Yosemite National Park.)


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes
reliable Internet access difficult to obtain.
                        - Xaonon, in alt.atheism


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 10:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Travels with Farley
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020607091746.009f0e20@mindspring.com>
References: <3D00CFC3.4080802@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <F209IjxGq01wLMLCkgC00014efb@hotmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020606223854.027fa008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020607115834.00967550@minn.net>

At 09:22 AM 6/7/2002 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>(For the confused, Phil Frank moved his nationally syndicated comic 
>"Travels with Farley" to SF about 20 years ago. It appears in the front 
>section, and features many of the characters from the old series, including 
>a quartet of bears who run the "Fog City Dumpster, where the elite with 
>four feet meet to eat."  The bears tend to summer at Yosemite National Park.)

Is there a URL?


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 11:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Jun  7 10:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
References: <F209IjxGq01wLMLCkgC00014efb@hotmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020606223854.027fa008@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20020607091746.009f0e20@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D00E94D.9020605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> At 08:22 AM 6/7/02 -0700, you wrote:
> 
>> Mark Urbin wrote:
>>
>>> My favorite Yosemite bears are the ones from the Farley cartoon.
>>> I bought my copy of "Fur and Loafing in Yosemite" at the lodge store 
>>> before one of the Ranger talks.
>>
>>
>> LOL another Farley fan...I'll have to look that one up...we have 
>> 'We're Only Here for the Season'.
> 
> 
> Farley books I don't own?  Horrors!  Farley is the first thing I read in 
> the Chronicle each morning.

<sheepish> Sorry...I just looked it up. It's 'Asphalt State Park' that I 
was thinking of...I think 'We're only here for the season' is a 
punchline or the suibtitle inside or something...


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 11:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Jun  7 10:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Travels with Farley
References: <3D00CFC3.4080802@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <F209IjxGq01wLMLCkgC00014efb@hotmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020606223854.027fa008@192.168.0.1> <3.0.6.32.20020607115834.00967550@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3D00EA69.3090300@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leslie Bates wrote:
> At 09:22 AM 6/7/2002 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
>>(For the confused, Phil Frank moved his nationally syndicated comic 
>>"Travels with Farley" to SF about 20 years ago. It appears in the front 
>>section, and features many of the characters from the old series, including 
>>a quartet of bears who run the "Fog City Dumpster, where the elite with 
>>four feet meet to eat."  The bears tend to summer at Yosemite National Park.)
> 
> 
> Is there a URL?

http://www.sfgate.com , click on the compics link. Farley is in there.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 12:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Jun  7 11:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Todays news
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22973@USCHM203>

>Some "mentalist" guy has predicted that a UFO will arrive over Las >Vegas
Nevada, USA tonight between 10:00 and 12:00.
<snipped>

>ObTrav:

> What if an Imperial Cruiser did appear over Vegas?

>Answers anyone?

People would think it was some kind of promotional event for a Wayne Newton
concert, take a glance, and go about their business.

	What I think might really happen is that the Ziru Sirka, upon seeing
how rapidly Terran science has advanced in the past few hundred years, and
also noting that we are venturing out into space,  would recognize the
threat posed to their stability and forcibly (very forcibly) integrate Terra
into the Imperium.
	Then again, there is a chance they'd dismiss the Terrans as
backwards and barbarian, with passing amusement at their claim of living on
the world where humans evolved.
	About 20 years ago I took part in an adventure where a Vilani
scoutship suffered a jump-drive malfunction, trapping it in the Sol system
circa 1983 A.D. They set about landing (hiding underwater after being
engaged by some F-16s), then set about covertly making contact with some
Terrans and enlisting their aid in repairing their jump-drives. I forget
what they needed exactly, but they were able to make use of locally made
parts and electornics, if only for a single jump back to Barnard's Star.
	We had players playing both Terrans and Vilani.
	At first the Terrans were eager to help the Vilani, envisioning
themselves joining some grand galactic federation. As they found out more
and more about the Imperium's cultural rigidity, and of its forcible and
ruthless suppression of any threats to the established order, they decided
that it would be a mistake to help the Vilani repair their ship. Indeed,
they decided it would be best to make sure the Imperium never heard of
Terra, at least until they had advanced to a tech level giving Terra a
figting chance.
	One Terran player killed himself and two Vilani in the act of
destroying the ship. The other two Vilani quietly integrated into Terran
society. (favorite line during the game: "There's something I should tell
you. My cousin's not really from Hungary?")
	Not two quietly. They all made a fortune as a result of
superconductor and micro-electronics patents.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 12:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Jun  7 11:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT Heard on the news
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEBLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: knightsky@juno.com
>
>Obtrav: Santanocheev-Norris?  Not exactly the same thing, true, but it
>does show the dangers of a soldier working contrary to his leader...

Norris is not in Santanocheev's chain of command until after Norris gets the
Imperial warrant.  Thereafter, so far as we know, Santanocheev relinquishes
his command when relieved without incident.  Neither of them issued any
statements derogating the other.

--Glenn

>From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
>
>This brings up a question I have after leafing through the JTAS Reprints.
>What *did* Santanochev do that made Norris dump him?  I guess I am not
>paying enough attention because I didn't pick it up.  What did he do?

Santanocheev failed to believe that the Zhodani were really preparing for
war, and failed to reinforce the Marches to resist (or even deter) a Zhodani
invasion.  At least, that's the official story.

>From: knightsky@juno.com
>
>My impression was that Santanochev's main crime, in addition to seemingly
>want to 'take over' Norris's role,

What evidence supports this position?  I'm not aware of any.

>was being incredibly incompetent: look how much ground the Imperium lost
during the early days of the 5FW
>with Santanochev in charge.  It wasn't until Norris took over that the tide
started to turn.

Norris may try to claim the credit for tactical brilliance, but the fact is
that the war started to turn because the Corridor fleet and other
reinforcements arrived and pushed the Zhodani out.  Weeks passed while the
fleets were notified and mobilized and while they travelled to the Spinward
Marches.  Again, Santanocheev's error was not calling for reinforcements
long before the Zhodani attack.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 12:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Jun  7 11:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TCS like web-game/Trav on line
Message-ID: <3D00FF6E.3A416A7A@mail.cswnet.com>

>Can you be more specific about what you mean by "what your unit will >be like"?

Sure. I tried to do a unit that had a4 d4 t1 j3 [the KT Home cruiser]
It came out a4 d4 t1 >j1<. Also the reason why I locked the units I had
was that I could get it to stay open and go on to another unit. Example:
Assume that I just finished the Type S without locking it.
If I then went to do another unit [the KT Home cruiser] it would
eliminate the Type S in favor of the KT. So, you wind up being forced to
lock a unit in that may not be what you intended it to be. Of course, as
I explained to another TML member, it could just be my computer
illiteracy showing ;) 

The concept is fun though. Now I'm thinking of using the Death Star in
my next 5FFW game :>

On a mostly completly different subject, does anyone out there know how
the Traveller On-Line project is coming along, if it is coming along, or
if it was abandoned? That was a really fun. I didn't [and still don't]
have IRC, but just being able to jump around the Marches and see how
other people named their starships was really neat.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 12:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Jun  7 11:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Todays news
Message-ID: <3D010109.8FB9385F@mail.cswnet.com>

Bernie McGeehan writes:
>Vegas! those idiots, I said Boston, dammit!....now how
>am I goning to get a flight to Vegas on this kind of
>notice...I mean, who'll feed the cats???

12. "I knew we should have taken a right turn at Albuquerque..."

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
"Yes, thats what I said. Tom Jones looks like Strephon."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 13:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Jun  7 12:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller software
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1023477045.0.87985600@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Peter L.S. Trevor posted: 
>
> Check out the screenshots at ...
>
> http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol/traveller/software/screenshot.ht
ml 
>
> Beta testers wanted!
>
> Contact me for details.

I'd love to! And your email address is?

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 13:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Jun  7 12:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Roleplaying the Type S benefit
Message-ID: <3D010978.F988D3B8@mail.cswnet.com>

-Or-

How exactly does your scout pc get his Type S [besides rolling a 6]?

Presumably, the pc has to go to the Detached Duty office at his/her
local scout base, gets the paper work, checks the condition of the Type
S before signing the paperwork [so that any damaged parts of the craft
will not be the scouts responsibility], then gets the Type S.

Paperwork involved[?]:
Ships registry ID?
Ships log
Tech orders/Maintenance logs[for determining date of last maintenance,
among other things].
The Scout service equivalent to the DD214, showing that said scout is
mustering out.
other -?

I'm thinking that the process is something akin to picking up a rental
car. What do you guys think? What other paperwork might be involved?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 14:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Jun  7 13:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Left the military because of Clinton...
In-Reply-To: <20020607160905.D166E279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17GQL2-0005Ah-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> wrote:

> At 02:24 AM 6/7/2002 -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> [snip]
> >I didn't have much respect for a fake liberal (ie he talked vaguely
> >like a liberal and acted far more like a middle of the road
> >conservative) like Clinton, but a number of the things he passed in
> >his last month or two in office were *damn* good things (Tricare,
> >protecting lots of old growth forests from logging...)
> 
> "Passed" by signing what made it through congress or "Passed" by
> executive order?

I don't remember the details clearly, but IIRC, Tricare created with 
some sort of executive order.  I could be wrong, but I also believe 
that it was originally his idea.  Perhaps someone else here knows 
more.  The old-growth forest protections were definitely executive 
orders.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 14:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Jun  7 13:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Talk
In-Reply-To: <20020607113506.5DD59279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17GQXZ-0007Tn-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:

> On 06/06/02 at 11:17 PM,  GDWGAMES@aol.com said:
> 
> >>There were numerous times during the Clinton administration 
> >>where I heard officers openly talk of sedition.  
> 
> >Nothing new about that. Marc told me once it came up a lot during
> >Vietnam,  and I suspect it's happened under every president.
> 
> Even Ike? <g>
> 
> In the TU, In the Imperium, I suspect you can say most anything you
> want. You'll get away with it as long as "the man in charge" doesn't
> mind, 

Or is you are speaking out against one of the local nobles and 
the noble gets wind of it. 

> unlike the SC or Zhodane. 

It's pretty much the same in the SC, except that "the man in 
charge" is the local Solomani Party agent, and there are likely 
enough bugs and informants around that you can pretty much 
guarantee that *everything* you say is being recorded or reported.  
It's rather terrifying to consider just how effective TL 12 or 13 robot 
brains are likely to be a flagging potentially subversive speech.  
They will certainly make mistakes, but I'm guessing they will also 
be able to sift through *all* the millions of different recordings the 
Solomani government makes and turn of the most suspicious to a 
human tech.  High tech and totalitarianism are a *very* disturbing 
combination.

OTOH, I can see the Zhodani going several different directions on 
the freedom of speech issue (both in the military and outside it).  
Possibly they make certain to fit everyone to their niche so well 
that there is little dissent (which seems unlikely since the Zhodani 
are still human and humans complain about *everything*).  
Alternately, I could see the Zhodani either treating everything other 
than the most minor dissent as something to look into and make 
changes in either the situation or the dissenter, or I can see them 
seeing minor to moderate dissent as a sign of healthy and 
inquisitive minds and not worrying about it if it didn't get too serious.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com    



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 14:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ervin =?iso-8859-1?q?N=E9meth?=)
Date: Fri Jun  7 13:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hapsburgs
In-Reply-To: <TNSHXDAEh5$8EwCa@deira.demon.co.uk>
References: <TNSHXDAEh5$8EwCa@deira.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <gms4rgeyfp3.fsf@gratia.ki.iif.hu>

>>>>> Martin Hardgrave writes:

> In message <20020605171539.3A62F279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>, tml-
> request@travellercentral.com writes

>> The Hapsburg heir, at least, has maintained a certain amount of dignity.

Grrr!  Habsburgs not Hapsburgs!


-Ervin
-- 
Quidquid agis, prudenter agas et respice finem.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 14:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Jun  7 13:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B9239300.5D936%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20607.140727.7Z8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 6/5/02 10:07 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>> 
>> Then he discovered that the biplanes didn't give off enough heat for
>> the IR seekers, nor did they have enough metal in them for the radar.
>> 
>> He *did* destroy some planes, but I won't spoil the surprise as to
>> *how* he did so.
>
> I'd assume that guns would do the job, not to mention jetwash.

No guns...

As for the other...

spoiler space

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

He clobbered them and their airbase with some close passes at mach 5.
Close up a shockwave can do *serious* damage.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 16:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri Jun  7 15:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller software
In-Reply-To: <000201c20dfe$7a5a7cc0$2d00a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <20020607220040.86741279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/07/02 at 12:07 AM,  "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com>
said:

>Check out the screenshots at ...

>http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol/traveller/software/screenshot.html

>Beta testers wanted!

>Contact me for details.

The screen shots are certainly impressive.  Is this going to primarily
be a system/world generator, ala Heaven & Earth, or a a
universe/system displayer, ala Galactic?

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 16:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri Jun  7 15:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Talk
In-Reply-To: <200206070835.BAA28280@ping.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20020607221641.3A227279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/07/02 at 01:35 AM,  Anthony Jackson <ajackson@ping.iii.com>
said:

>"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com> writes:

>>In the TU, In the Imperium, I suspect you can say most anything you
>>want. You'll get away with it as long as "the man in charge" doesn't
>>mind, unlike the SC or Zhodane. 

>Why do people insist on thinking that the Imperium is some sort of 
>free state?  

LOL! I never said that Anthony. What I said was that I suspect you are
free to say most anything (that is to say, not physically or
psionically gagged), and can get away with it as long as "the man in
charge" doesn't mind. 

In the Imperium what prevents a person from speaking their minds is
the fear of the future consequenses of having done so. Whether that
fear is there or not depends on the individual's perception of "the
man in charge" of the area where the individual is located...and
that's pretty much what *you* said. <g>

My point was that in the Solomani Confed. and the Zhodane it's a
little different. In the SC, I think there would be specific *laws*
regarding what you can and can't say, and SolSec enforces these laws
across the entire SC, IOW's fewer (if any) local differences based on
"the man in charge."  In the Zhodane, you are completely free to say
whatever you think to say...you just don't think certain things, and
if you do, then you are in need of, and will receive, treatment for
your mental disorder.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 16:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Fri Jun  7 15:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Talk
In-Reply-To: <20020607160907.BCB2A279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607154359.009ebe00@mailhost.efn.org>

On Sat, 8 Jun 2002 00:06:03 +1000, "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> 
wrote:

>It would have been interesting to have asked MacArthur what his opinion of
>Ike was, though.

 From what I've read, one seldom needed to ASK MacArthur to know what his 
opinion was on any given subject.



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 17:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Jun  7 16:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEIKHJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <20607.151128.6n9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hmmm,
>
> Interesting point, the Nimitz is what -- 1 and half maybe 2 max
> --TL's ahead of the the temporal natives, and could by it's lonesome,
> without any historical pre-knowledge, could rip a bloody hole through
> the combined navies of the era

Only as long as the spare parts held out.

There's no way to replace *any* of the electronics in the planes, nor
much of the electronics on the ship. Many of the alloys/materials in
the planes aren't capable of being *produced* much less *worked* by the
"natives".

I've played with similar ideas. Consider what the effects on histoty
would be if the attack group heading for Pearl Harbor was wiped out by
a time travelling attack sub. Or simply by a medium sized nuke.

All the Japanesse would know is that the group was never heard from
again, and that Pearl Harbor had *not* been attacked.

> On another list someone claims a modern Combined Arms Battalion could
> probably beat either side at Krusk.  He claims that this was
> actuallly war gamed at Ft Benning

Given what coalition forces did to Iraq in the Gulf war, I wouldn't be
a bit surprised. 

> Recalling that both the Higher and lower Tech forces have benefited
> from long period of maturation and cross-fertilization does it sound
> fair that a TL approximately 10 to 100 times the lethality.

On the other hand, in the TU, the low tech forces on all but newly
contacted worlds *know* about the high tech gear. 

So even if they don't have any, they will have a moderately good idea
of its limits *and* of any vulnerabilities. 

ACW era "infrastructure" could produce a *lot* of WWI era stuff, and
maybe even WWII era stuff. Just not in the same quanity, and not as
cheaply. But a lot of stuff wouldn't require major retooling. 

On the other hand, there's stuff that's 1950s tech, that couldn't be
produced in the 1930s without *major* retooling. 

This is why, long before traveller, I was trying to come up with
something like the concept of "tech level" but based on what you
*could* make given the knowledge, based solely on the sort of tools you
had available.

So the "zero" level is "you've been dropped somewhere with a book of
info, and your bare hands.

The first level would be stone tools, fire and other "natural items
modified by bare hands"

And so on. 

The idea being that the "tech level" of an item is how many "levels" of
tools you have to go thru to make it. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 17:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri Jun  7 16:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b925ba88e679@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEIGEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>In the CT period, there is a TNS item where reporters challenge a
>naval press officer on a misstatement.  So there is some freedom of
>the press.  It has been pointed out that this may only apply to those
>organizations that distribute info to organizations with some pull.
>The item in question implied (IIRC) that there was more than one
>reporter present so that it would appear that the TNS isn't only one
>with some freedom and the fact that the item is one that players
>would general be expected to be able to read implies that at least
>some of this freedom gets to (directly or indirectly) the general
>population.
>--

This assumes that the PC's are members of the general population. I maintain
that this is almost never true. PC's are members of a very small and elite
group, generally consisting of military veterans (except those of the
"other" career), who are often themselves members of the Traveller's Aid
Society, a gift given to only those who have distinguished themselves
through service to the Imperium. Membership cost MCr1, so is not a trifling
gift. Any PC's who is not wealthy and has membership has obviously really
impressed somebody.

It seems probable that something like 99% of Imperial citizens will never
leave their home system, probably most will never leave their home planet.
Very much like most people of the middle ages never walk more than a day or
so travel from their place of birth. By this criteria no PC will be a member
of the 'general population."


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 17:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri Jun  7 16:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20605.090725.5L7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEIHEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> There was a film with pretty much this idea as its theme, except (IIRC)
it
>> was the day before Pearl Harbour - an American aircraft carrier (USS
>> Nimitz?) gets caught in a time warp and sent back to whichever day it
was,
>> and the crew have to decide if they should intervene or not - E2C Hawkeye
>> early warning aircraft and F14 Tomcats against the Japanese Mitsubishi-
and
>> Nakajima-built aircraft...
>> Unfortunately I cannot remember the name of the film, but I do recall the
>> rather entertaining (if a little obvious) twist at the end...
>
>"The Final Conflict"
>
>And it was indeed the Nimitz.
>
Always had a problem with this flick.

Spoiler


















The thought that a Navy captain would recall his planes from a mission as
Earth shaking as preventing the attack on pearl Harbor just because the
pilots would be separated from the ship as it slipped back into the present,
was I believe more unbelievable that the concept of time travel itself.

Once he decided to intervene and change history, I found it ridiculous that
he would recall the planes under any circumstances. Once they had destroyed
the Japanese fleet the planes could have landed at any one of a number of
air fields in the islands. What happen next would make an interesting tale.
Would the government believe the story of the pilots after the attack. It
would be real hard to ignore the technology in the aircraft. But since I
doubt Roosevelt would have been willing to release information on "rocket
planes" from the future destroying the Japanese fleet, I doubt he would be
able to justify intervention in Europe, even knowing what would have
happened had the attack not been stopped.

Then there's the whole "if the U.S. never experienced Pearl Harbor would the
Nimitz ever have been built?" question.

"Ah the past is the future...the future's the past...the whole time travel
thing gives me a headache!"

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 18:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri Jun  7 17:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20607.151128.6n9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEIHEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> Hmmm,
>>
>> Interesting point, the Nimitz is what -- 1 and half maybe 2 max
>> --TL's ahead of the the temporal natives, and could by it's lonesome,
>> without any historical pre-knowledge, could rip a bloody hole through
>> the combined navies of the era
>
>Only as long as the spare parts held out.
>
>There's no way to replace *any* of the electronics in the planes, nor
>much of the electronics on the ship. Many of the alloys/materials in
>the planes aren't capable of being *produced* much less *worked* by the
>"natives".
>
Once the Japanese fleet was destroyed, continued use of the aircraft would
not really be necessary. It's the concepts of what the Nimitz carried that
would be important. On of the greatest benefits of reverse engineering
technology is instead of having to invent it, that you know the thing can be
built. Much money is wasted on research just finding out what works and what
doesn't. Once you know that something can be built it makes it much easier
to do.

Much of the electronics used in the Nimitz during the period of the movie
(the eighties I believe) was not that far advanced in actual fact. Much of
it was simply the application of knowledge that was unknown in the 1940's.
The actual technology was known, just not how to apply it. For example both
circuit boards and transistors can be made using simple photographic etching
techniques that would have been possible in the 1940's, if someone had
understood the material science involved.

Heck if the Nimitz library is in any way equal the library of the U.S.S.
John F. Kennedy I can guarantee the sufficient knowledge was on board to
bootstrap a country with as much innovativeness as the U.S. rapidly up a
tech level.

 >I've played with similar ideas. Consider what the effects on history
>would be if the attack group heading for Pearl Harbor was wiped out by
>a time travelling attack sub. Or simply by a medium sized nuke.
>
>All the Japanesse would know is that the group was never heard from
>again, and that Pearl Harbor had *not* been attacked.
>
>> On another list someone claims a modern Combined Arms Battalion could
>> probably beat either side at Krusk.  He claims that this was
>> actuallly war gamed at Ft Benning
>
>Given what coalition forces did to Iraq in the Gulf war, I wouldn't be
>a bit surprised.
>
>> Recalling that both the Higher and lower Tech forces have benefited
>> from long period of maturation and cross-fertilization does it sound
>> fair that a TL approximately 10 to 100 times the lethality.
>
>On the other hand, in the TU, the low tech forces on all but newly
>contacted worlds *know* about the high tech gear.
>
This has always been a problem for me. Considered the present era. Countries
which cannot afford decent roads, hospital care or even universal literacy
always seem to find the cash to buy modern weapons, or at least weapons many
tech levels higher than they can produce. Even if it means going so far into
debt only debt forgiveness will ever get them out of hock.

Players need never expect to see the venerable ATV on any world IMTU. If the
natives have progressed beyond riding animals they will import enough
contrgrav technology to at least get their troops around or run bus
services. There was very short period when one could not find an automobile
in almost every area of the planet. That short 50 year period is over.

The contragrav bus might have a wooden body and rubber skids. But it will
have a com unit. Such small items are almost certain to be imported rather
than the high volume-low value items often described in Traveller game cargo
manifests.

>So even if they don't have any, they will have a moderately good idea
>of its limits *and* of any vulnerabilities.
>
>ACW era "infrastructure" could produce a *lot* of WWI era stuff, and
>maybe even WWII era stuff. Just not in the same quanity, and not as
>cheaply. But a lot of stuff wouldn't require major retooling.
>
>On the other hand, there's stuff that's 1950s tech, that couldn't be
>produced in the 1930s without *major* retooling.
>
Except for small arms most military stuff has never really been mass
produced. Ships are still almost entirely hand made, as is most of the
equipment on board, often by semiskilled labor. Even aircraft are mostly
assembled by hand, more like an expensive sports car than a family sedan.

>This is why, long before traveller, I was trying to come up with
>something like the concept of "tech level" but based on what you
>*could* make given the knowledge, based solely on the sort of tools you
>had available.
>
>So the "zero" level is "you've been dropped somewhere with a book of
>info, and your bare hands.
>
>The first level would be stone tools, fire and other "natural items
>modified by bare hands"
>
>And so on.
>
>The idea being that the "tech level" of an item is how many "levels" of
>tools you have to go thru to make it.

A much better concept than either Traveller or GURPS tech levels. But unless
the world is isolated, imported technology will be much more important than
the game generally gives credit for. Strange in a game which has Trade as a
major factor the fact that it's much more likely for a planet to import guns
and coms rather than raw material and wheat has never seemed to bother most
people.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 18:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri Jun  7 17:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Left the military because of Clinton...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607083630.02630eb0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEIIEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>[snip]
>>I didn't have much respect for a fake liberal (ie he talked vaguely
>>like a liberal and acted far more like a middle of the road
>>conservative) like Clinton, but a number of the things he passed in
>>his last month or two in office were *damn* good things (Tricare,
>>protecting lots of old growth forests from logging...)
>
>"Passed" by signing what made it through congress or "Passed" by executive
>order?
>
I'm going to hate myself in the morning for wasting bandwidth on this
flame-bait subject but....

Passed by executive order, or rather instituted by directive. Tricare is a
system put in place by the DOD to free more military doctors for military
duty (where they belong) rather than treating retired military people (who
deserve lifetime medical care of some kind, but not at the expense of the
people serving now.) Tricare pretty much guaranteed that retirees would have
something better than sitting around military medical facilities waiting for
space available care.

Clinton, for all his faults, jumped to number one on my list when he ordered
the DOD to stop fighting the Agent Orange lawsuits during his first month in
office. Here were all these guys who had gone to 'Nam (some of who I knew
very well) and were exposed to a known hazardous chemical without proper
warning. They were told by presidents of both parties that they had to prove
that they are dieing due to this. Even though statistical evidence pretty
well proved that they're rates of cancer and other sickness where way above
the norm of those not exposed. Clinton put a stop to it, and later he
ordered similar action taken for Gulf Vets (Even though his own party and
DOD want to stall and wait for the victims to die off (following their
shyster lawyer advisors, I'm sure.)

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 18:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Jun  7 17:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Left the military because of Clinton...
In-Reply-To: <E17GQL2-0005Ah-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <20020607160905.D166E279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607204654.0213c158@192.168.0.1>

At 01:25 PM 6/7/2002 -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> wrote:
> > "Passed" by signing what made it through congress or "Passed" by
> > executive order?
>I don't remember the details clearly, but IIRC, Tricare created with
>some sort of executive order.  I could be wrong, but I also believe
>that it was originally his idea.  Perhaps someone else here knows
>more.  The old-growth forest protections were definitely executive
>orders.

He shoved through a lot of stuff in the last 24 hours of his term, by means 
of executive order, that he didn't didn't want to expend political capital 
on during his two terms.  Some good, some bad.

Interesting precedent he set though...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"The final and best means of strengthening demand among consumers and
business is to reduce the burden on private income and the deterrence to
private initiative which are imposed by our present tax system, and this
administration pledged itself last summer to an across-the-board,
top-to-bottom cut in personal and corporate income taxes to be
enacted and become effective in 1963." -- President John F. Kennedy
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 18:51:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Jun  7 17:51:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Marine Brainwashing (Was Re:Picky, picky...)
References: <20020607160905.D166E279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005f01c20e87$108dd6a0$5d5d8690@computer>

> From: a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
> One has to be truely amazed at the ability of the US military in the
> 2nd WW to take world beating raw manpower (probably the best of
> any combantant), give them lavish state of the art equipment and
> lengthy realistic training; and turn them into a mediocre fighting
> force.

In fairness, most of the really big US snafus tended to involved
inexperienced and/or incompletely trained troops.

The Buna-Sanananda-Gona thing I mentioned was a prime example of this.  The
US troops there were incompletely trained National Guard types, who weren't
even fully equipped.  MacArthur sent them in to show the (veteran)
Australian troops how to fight...  Needless to say, they mostly ended up
showing the Australians how to get lost and launch uncoordinated attacks in
the wrong place.  Lots of casualties, and nothing to show for it.  Rather
reminiscent of the Civil War, really.

On the other hand, you have to cut the US forces in the Philippines (in
41-42) a bit of slack.  Given how outclassed they were, they, and the
Philippines Scouts, did a pretty good job of "dying well".

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 19:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Jun  7 18:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Left the military because of Clinton...
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEIIEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEIIEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <m3ofem7f0a.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> writes:
> 
> Clinton, for all his faults, jumped to number one on my list when he
> ordered the DOD to stop fighting the Agent Orange lawsuits during
> his first month in office.

Now if only someone would do the same for trichlorethane exposure in
the military...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Crist aras!  Crist solice aras!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 19:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Jun  7 18:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML Timewarp
Message-ID: <F259egh0YCaRW5ER8Q90001525c@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Perhaps it is just all that liquor finally catching up with me, but is 
anyone else getting their TML messages out of order?  ForEx: I recieved 
several responses to the "What did Santanocheev do?" well before the 
original question showed up.
     Quite disconcerting, especially to a near-senile, rum pot like myself.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 21:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Jun  7 20:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML Timewarp
Message-ID: <3D017A82.2912D65@mail.cswnet.com>

Larsen Whipsnade observes:
>Perhaps it is just all that liquor finally catching up with me, but is 
>anyone else getting their TML messages out of order?

Yes. Notice how, when I was posting my latest Arba related stuff...
Part one of Arba Downport got put in before the Arba 1106 Intro.

Also, the TML seems slow. I had previously attributed it to low volume.
Now I'm not so sure. [puzzlement]

As long as the posts get there, I suppose [shrug]

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
"We do not have a town drunk on Arba. We all take turns."
--sign at local Brubecks'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun  7 22:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri Jun  7 21:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hapsburgs
In-Reply-To: <gms4rgeyfp3.fsf@gratia.ki.iif.hu>
Message-ID: <20020608041346.ADCD2279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/07/02 at 10:52 PM,  airwin@inf.bme.hu (Ervin Nmeth) said:

>>> The Hapsburg heir, at least, has maintained a certain amount of dignity.

>Grrr!  Habsburgs not Hapsburgs!

Doesn't that depend on which side of the river you live on? <g>

As big as the it is, don't you think thre would there be several
different ganglic dialects across the Imperium. Someone from Core
talking to someone from the Spinward Marches might be speaking the
same language, but still not be able to understand each other in
spoken or, maybe even, written communication.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 00:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Fri Jun  7 23:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML Timewarp
References: <3D017A82.2912D65@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D01A9BD.F9DC3B50@attbi.com>


Roseberry wrote:

> Yes. Notice how, when I was posting my latest Arba related stuff...
> Part one of Arba Downport got put in before the Arba 1106 Intro.
>
> Also, the TML seems slow. I had previously attributed it to low volume.
> Now I'm not so sure. [puzzlement]

The net being hit with anything fun? or just normal net chaos?

Who knows....

In honor of the message subject line...

Put your hands on your hips....
<you know the rest....>
<Evyn is now pondering the number of years since he last saw that
movie... < Now he is feeling very old all of a sudden.>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 04:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Jun  8 03:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <m3ofep7z7f.fsf_-_@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20607.222344.3q2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The website is <http://travtrack.sf.net/>.  I just released travlib
> 0.6.3, which features a _greatly_ improved handling of various
> attributes.  Enumerations follow the gtk+ standard.  The Rankine scale
> (more accurate than Kelvin) is used throughout.  Various oddities have
> been cleaned up.

Huh? That's like saying feet are more accurate than meters.

The Rankine scale is no more accurate than Kelvin. And it can be argued
that it's a (tiny) bit less accurate, simply because the temperature
"check points" used for *calibrating* thermometers are *defined* in
Kelvin. which means you get conversion errors...

Kelvin and Rankine are both absolute temperature scales. That is, both
set 0 at absolute zero. 

Kelvin uses "Celsius" sized degrees. Rankine uses Fahrenheit sized
ones. That's all there is to it.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 04:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat Jun  8 03:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Santanocheev
References: <000601c20dce$0350b480$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <002301c20ed6$466f88a0$1f00a8c0@imogen>

Mike West wrote:
> This brings up a question I have after leafing through the JTAS
> Reprints.  What *did* Santanochev do that made Norris dump him?
> I guess I am not paying enough attention because I didn't pick
> it up.  What did he do?

According to "The Spinward Marches Campaign"  (p11)  Santanocheev
was an incompetant Rear  Admiral  who  was  promoted  quickly  to
Sector Admiral due to his political and social connections.

Santanocheev tended to ignore and exclude those  he  didn't  like
from his planning and staff  meetings.  Some  time  in  the  past
Naval Intelligence had produced  a  faulty  prediction  that  had
reflected badly on Santanocheev  ...  and  thus  NI  was  on  his
personal enemies list.  Santanocheev created  a  parallel  agency
(the Office of Naval Information) which displaced NI in the  High
Command.  ONI is described as full of bootlickers and yes-men.

When the 5FW started  Norris  found  Santanocheev  uncooperative.
Norris (who had connections to NI) also found that Santanocheev's
plans where based on faulty intelligence  that  could  loose  the
war.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 04:20:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat Jun  8 03:20:43 2002
Subject: [TML] What's your fav. docking bay?
References: <3CFFC3C6.C42C4A89@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <002001c20ed6$45490a00$1f00a8c0@imogen>

Dan Roseberry wrote:
> What's your favorite starting point docking bay?

Announced over the starport PA system:

"The white zone is for loading and unloading of Free Traders only ..."

"No stopping in the Red Zone ..."

"Patrons are requested not to pull the wings off the Droyne ..."

"For your information: Bwaps are not bread rolls ..."

"Laser Tag is not permitted in the main concourse ..."

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 04:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Jun  8 03:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <20607.222344.3q2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <m3ofep7z7f.fsf_-_@latakia.dyndns.org> <20607.222344.3q2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020608202506.A10874@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> The Rankine scale is no more accurate than Kelvin.

I just ignored it.  It was obviously a deliberate troll.  Especially
coming in within hours of the "War of Northern Aggression".  I think
Robert must have been feeling a bit ignored recently.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 05:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Jun  8 04:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML Timewarp
References: <F259egh0YCaRW5ER8Q90001525c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D020FC2.6D90A90A@mindspring.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>
>      Perhaps it is just all that liquor finally catching up with me, but is
> anyone else getting their TML messages out of order?  ForEx: I recieved
> several responses to the "What did Santanocheev do?" well before the
> original question showed up.
>      Quite disconcerting, especially to a near-senile, rum pot like myself.
>
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

.noos lamron eb lliw llA .noitarebba yraropmet a ylno si sihT .llew si lla
,demrala eb t'noD .xaler ,nezitic nwod tiS


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 06:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Jun  8 05:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML Timewarp
Message-ID: <memo.80034@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3D020FC2.6D90A90A@mindspring.com>
!tnelis enog evah yeht ,deredrosid dnim reveN ?enog sklof MEBP eht lla 
evah erew tuB.llew sa tsuJ

.nedniL enirehtaC niatpaC dna ,ecnaurpS suniL,toofdaP wehttaM,tobaC 
madA,laxeM


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 07:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Jun  8 06:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML Timewarp
References: <memo.80034@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D02A8F5.FE1F3195@mindspring.com>

Megan Robertson wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <3D020FC2.6D90A90A@mindspring.com>
> !tnelis enog evah yeht ,deredrosid dnim reveN ?enog sklof MEBP eht lla
> evah erew tuB.llew sa tsuJ
>
> .nedniL enirehtaC niatpaC dna ,ecnaurpS suniL,toofdaP wehttaM,tobaC
> madA,laxeM
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Diseased minds and all ;P


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I used to be Snow White -- but I drifted.
                               Mae West



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 07:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sat Jun  8 06:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Hapsburgs
In-Reply-To: <20020608041346.ADCD2279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <gms4rgeyfp3.fsf@gratia.ki.iif.hu>
 <20020608041346.ADCD2279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020608135254.7debcf01.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
> Doesn't that depend on which side of the river you live on? <g>

Eeeeh... no... you don't change the spelling of personal names... Habsburg is still Habsburg. And Ericsson (the corporation) is spelled with a double 's'.

Or am I wrong, Erik Rdker?

*ducks*

I could have used "Loke" as the first name instead. Norse god of mischief, closest equivalent to Eris I can think of.

/Spacejens

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 08:39:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat Jun  8 07:39:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Roleplaying the Type S benefit
In-Reply-To: <3D010978.F988D3B8@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEIKEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>How exactly does your scout pc get his Type S [besides rolling a 6]?
>
>Presumably, the pc has to go to the Detached Duty office at his/her
>local scout base, gets the paper work, checks the condition of the Type
>S before signing the paperwork [so that any damaged parts of the craft
>will not be the scouts responsibility], then gets the Type S.
>
>Paperwork involved[?]:
>Ships registry ID?
>Ships log
>Tech orders/Maintenance logs[for determining date of last maintenance,
>among other things].
>The Scout service equivalent to the DD214, showing that said scout is
>mustering out.
>other -?
>
>I'm thinking that the process is something akin to picking up a rental
>car. What do you guys think? What other paperwork might be involved?
>
>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

"Oath of Indefinite Enlistment" where the scout promises to continue to
serve the Emperor and report anything (s)he sees that might be of interest
to the Imperium or the IISS. Along with a rather lengthy document listing
all of the conditions under which the scout can be recalled to active duty
along with the Scout's signature which signifies understanding of said fact.

After all the IISS isn't giving away a scout ship so the veteran can run
speculative cargo, it's deploying a free agent and general intelligence
gatherer on a rather long leash. But the leash is still there.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 09:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Jun  8 08:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship lifetimes
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020607082217.00a084d0@mindspring.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1023400365.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D02C5A5.27222.C9C162@localhost>

On 7 Jun 2002, at 8:24, Douglas Berry wrote:

> ObTrav: Solomani opinions of the Rim War.  What do they call it?  How
> do they explain the fall of Terra?  Are they like the North Koreans,
> assuming that the war is just in a long quiet period?

War of Solomani Freedom (from Alien Module 6 IIRC)

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 09:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Jun  8 08:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML Timewarp
In-Reply-To: <3D01A9BD.F9DC3B50@attbi.com>
References: <3D017A82.2912D65@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020608072829.009e9ec0@mindspring.com>

At 11:52 PM 6/7/02 -0700, you wrote:
>In honor of the message subject line...
>
>Put your hands on your hips....
><you know the rest....>
><Evyn is now pondering the number of years since he last saw that
>movie... < Now he is feeling very old all of a sudden.>>

It has been years since I saw it, but since I saw, and acted it over 700 
times, this came to mind...


_The TML Timewarp_
(ttto: The Time Warp, by Richard O'Brien)

It's amazing
Space-time is changing
Replies come, before the first post is sent
But keep reading closely
It's signal, mostly
I've got to, post some more

I have seen, the mail list twisting
Breaking the known rules of time
The Digest would show up
And it would be messed up...

The T-M-L is warping again!
The T-M-L is warping again!

(Chorus)
It's just a harsh topic shift
And another pirate flame
Put your hands on the keys
You can respond all night
It's a mailing list
That blows keyboards away-ay-ay-ay!

The T-M-L is warping again!
The T-M-L is warping again!

It's so strange here
Though our charter is so clear
We have penguins
And lesbian Aslan from space
In another dimension
Strephon's death isn't mentioned
But we still argue
About it all

Just mention a near-C rock
You'll get a lot of talk
And soon it will
Turn to flame
The volume will blow you away
Over 400 posts a day!

The T-M-L is warping again!
The T-M-L is warping again!

<sung by Ditizie Spofulam>
Well, I was playing a game of dragons and spells
When I saw a black box they were trying to sell
I opened it up and found a sci-fi game
I started to play and never was the same
It shook me up, I threw D&D away
No I take drugs so I can play all day!

The T-M-L is warping again!
The T-M-L is warping again!

(Chorus)

The T-M-L is warping again!
The T-M-L is warping again!


Pretty good for an instafilk, if I do say so myself.

Now of course, we need to figure out who would be in the cast of the TML 
Horror Picture Show..  Dibs on Riff-Raff!  I'd like to nominate Kiri as my 
Magenta.

-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is
that I am now a perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague
here is rapidly running out of limbs!"
   - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 09:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Jun  8 08:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Talk (among the Zhodani)
Message-ID: <fe.190f8599.2a337f7e@aol.com>

Eris, commiting thoughtcrimes, writes:

>In the Zhodane, you are completely free to say
>whatever you think to say...you just don't think certain things, and
>if you do, then you are in need of, and will receive, treatment for
>your mental disorder.

 As with many such things, the reality here is "it depends".
 Depending on how overworked and/or corrupt (yes, I'm of the opinion that the 
Zhodani are not immune to such things) the planetary/municipality Tavrchedl' 
are, they may actually use such people as bellweathers. Someone squawks loud 
enough, or enough silent suffering is picked up by the beat cops, and they 
look into the *cause* instead of just the symptoms.
 I'm also of the opinion that the Tavrchedl' do more than the obvious type of 
"adjustment", this being implied in their name and descriptive text. Beside 
the mental health-and-happiness issues, they will (again depending on 
workload and "influences") act as employment agency, emmigration/travel 
agents, military recruiters, mortgage brokers, health & safety auditors, 
stealth accountants, and other jobs that may be connected to personal and 
societal health.

 One of the more infamous divisions of the Tavrchedl', IMTU, is the "Foreign 
Office". Known rather nebulously to Imperial and various Vargr polity intel 
agencies, the Foreign Office is the receiving end for a steady trickle of 
Proles who, despite (often multiple) adjustments, are not happy within the 
Consulate being safe. Depending on their stability, these wildcards are 
handed to the Foreign Office. Some become permanent members, while others are 
"expendable" in that they are educated to perform some task for Office and 
Consulate, sent on that task, then cut loose. The Office likes to keep loose 
ends to a minimum, however, and will often scrub their memories first and 
keep loose track of them for years afterwards. Most are not expected to 
return, but they are not barred from doing so, only planted with a deep 
suggestion to "check in" at a Tavrchedl' office should they ever return to 
the Consulate.

 "BUT" I hear the crowd cry, "how do they blend in?"
 In the Imperium this is frighteningly easy, since there is a sizeable ethnic 
Zhodani minority in the Marches, and always has been.
 In Vargr space and the Rimward (relative to the Consulate) territories there 
has been a considerable Zhodani mercantile presence for thousands of years. 
Also, not all Consular humans are ethnic Zhodani. We know of the Vlazhdumecta 
on the rimward edge of the Consulate, and there are undoubtably others...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 09:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Sat Jun  8 08:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hapsburgs
In-Reply-To: <20020608041346.ADCD2279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <gms4rgeyfp3.fsf@gratia.ki.iif.hu>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020608103829.0289ae20@mail.earthlink.net>

At 11:13 PM 6/7/2002 -0500, Eris wrote:
>As big as the it is, don't you think thre would there be several
>different ganglic dialects across the Imperium. Someone from Core
>talking to someone from the Spinward Marches might be speaking the
>same language, but still not be able to understand each other in
>spoken or, maybe even, written communication.

No.

AFAIK, there is only one edition of the TNS that is distributed, and 
everyone from the Solomani Rim, to Core, to the Spinward Marches can read it.

I picture the different dialects of Anglic to be like English spoken in the 
UK (Core), the USA (Rim) or Australia (Riftian).  All the same root 
language, just many words have different meaning in the different areas.


Jimmy Simpson                   nimrodd2@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 10:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Jun  8 09:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML Timewarp
Message-ID: <F184Q8i8ybWceWB184q00017dce@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "Now of course, we need to figure out who would be in the cast of the 
TML Horror Picture Show..  Dibs on Riff-Raff!  I'd like to nominate Kiri as 
my Magenta."


Mr. Berry,

     I was born to play the Narrator.  The physical simularities are 
frightening.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. "No-Neck" Whipsnade

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 10:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Jun  8 09:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20020608100508.EDAEC279C3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17GjL4-0002KZ-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> wrote:

> Players need never expect to see the venerable ATV on any world IMTU.
> If the natives have progressed beyond riding animals they will import
> enough contrgrav technology to at least get their troops around or run
> bus services. There was very short period when one could not find an
> automobile in almost every area of the planet. That short 50 year
> period is over.

Agreed, while your average citizen on a TL 6 or world may drive a 
ground car, any member of the elite will have a vehicle with a 
locally made body and an imported contragrav unit.  Emergency 
vehicles and military vehicles will be even more likely to have 
contragrav (although there will likely be more tracked tanks than 
grav tanks).

The degree to which *any* world in the Imperium (or in any other of 
the large states) will have access to at least some portions of TL 
12+ tech is something that I'd *love* to see treated in some 
Traveller sourcebook.  Way too many descriptions describe low 
tech worlds as places with only low tech, except for what the PCs 
are carrying, which simply isn't going to be true.  I'm guessing 
imported satellite cell phones will be a common mark of status for 
the members of any TL 5-7 civilization (especially since a large 
crate of those things will be a very profitable item for a tramp 
freighter to carry), and the occasional rich person will have a robot 
butler or bodyguard.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 11:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Sat Jun  8 10:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
Message-ID: <F47mIKKUS3YWOss29tW0001eed3@hotmail.com>

   Hey gang,
   While watching one of The Gamer's Trinity (History channel, Discovery, 
TLC) a couple of weeks back, I ran across a program on futuristic weapons.
   Anyhow, one of the weapons talked about was a shotgun that fired rounds 
packed with flechettes. The thing had this *really* over-the-top ROF; able 
to fire 150 rounds per second or something.The sheer volume of fire produced 
would essentially scrub away any protective armor.
   Being a firm believer in keeping a notebook handy when watching this sort 
of stuff, I made notes, thinking a VRF Shotgun would make a pretty handy 
addition to MTU.
   Bad thing is, having looked through my stack of notebooks, I am *now* 
unable to FIND said notes.
   Did anyone *else* see this program, take notes, or have any info on this 
thing?
   Thanks :)
  -Ken-



_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 12:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mole)
Date: Sat Jun  8 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
In-Reply-To: <F47mIKKUS3YWOss29tW0001eed3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9279798.4340%mole@solsec.org>

on 6/8/02 10:45 AM, Ken Murphy at murfnmurf@hotmail.com wrote:

> Hey gang,
> While watching one of The Gamer's Trinity (History channel, Discovery,
> TLC) a couple of weeks back, I ran across a program on futuristic weapons.
> Anyhow, one of the weapons talked about was a shotgun that fired rounds
> packed with flechettes. The thing had this *really* over-the-top ROF; able
> to fire 150 rounds per second or something.The sheer volume of fire produced
> would essentially scrub away any protective armor.

Ken,

I don't know if this is from the same source or not.
Feel free to check it out though.

http://weapons.travellercentral.com/shotguns/surfgun.html

Mole


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 12:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Jun  8 11:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Hapsburgs
In-Reply-To: <20020608135254.7debcf01.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <B927A0B6.5DFD5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/8/02 4:52 AM, Jens Rydholm at jenry023@student.liu.se wrote:

> Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
>> Doesn't that depend on which side of the river you live on? <g>
>=20
> Eeeeh... no... you don't change the spelling of personal names... Habsbur=
g is
> still Habsburg. And Ericsson (the corporation) is spelled with a double '=
s'.
>=20
> Or am I wrong, Erik R=F6d=E5ker?
>=20

I think that was meant in the same way that Romanov is sometimes spelled
Romanoff, or the fact that it's now Bejing, not Peking.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 13:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Jun  8 12:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
In-Reply-To: <F47mIKKUS3YWOss29tW0001eed3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B927A3B1.5DFDA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/8/02 10:45 AM, Ken Murphy at murfnmurf@hotmail.com wrote:

> Hey gang,
> While watching one of The Gamer's Trinity (History channel, Discovery,
> TLC) a couple of weeks back, I ran across a program on futuristic weapons.
> Anyhow, one of the weapons talked about was a shotgun that fired rounds
> packed with flechettes. The thing had this *really* over-the-top ROF; able
> to fire 150 rounds per second or something.The sheer volume of fire produced
> would essentially scrub away any protective armor.

I am not aware of any such weapon, and I'm usually pretty up to date on
developments like this.  There are a number of factors that will limit the
effectiveness of such weapons.

1. Shotgun flechettes are fired at relatively low velocity and have been
shown to have very little wounding power and lack penetration of hard
armors.

2.  Shotguns have relatively short effective range.

3.  Shotguns have relatively high recoil in relation to the payload
delivered.

4.  Shotguns used rimmed cases, which result in complex and often unreliable
feed mechanisms.

In contrast, one could look at the relatively mature technology of miniguns.
The XM-143 7.62 minigun fires 6,000 rounds per minute (100/second), has a
greater effective range than any shotgun in existence by a wide margin, and
can fire armor piecing projectiles capable of defeating any extant body
armor.  All this with well-proven 1960'stechnology.

For really high rates of fire, check out metalstorm
(http://www.metalstorm.com)


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 13:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Jun  8 12:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Hapsburgs
In-Reply-To: <B927A0B6.5DFD5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020608194107.7F3B6279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/08/02 at 11:53 AM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 6/8/02 4:52 AM, Jens Rydholm at jenry023@student.liu.se wrote:

>> Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
>>> Doesn't that depend on which side of the river you live on? <g>
 
>> Eeeeh... no... you don't change the spelling of personal
>> names...  Habsburg is still Habsburg.  And Ericsson (the
>> corporation) is spelled with a double 's'.
>>
>> Or am I wrong, Erik Rdker?

You could be...or not...depending on how you pronouce it, and/or on
what Rodaker *means*.  However, the language I speak doesn't have the
letters to make the second or fourth characters in the second name
above, so I haven't the slightest idea what it would sound like.

>I think that was meant in the same way that Romanov is sometimes
>spelled Romanoff, or the fact that it's now Bejing, not Peking.

Yep. Do a google search on both Hapsburg and Habsburg and see what you
find.  I get the impression that one spelling is German and one
is...um, not...hence my "depends on which side of the river" comment. 
OTOH, it was mostly meant as a joke, so let's not drag it out, okay.
<g>

Eris,
  pronouced by me as Ear-es Red-uck (although, I'm told the
  last name was historically pronouced reed-Ock)
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 14:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Jun  8 13:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML Timewarp
In-Reply-To: <F184Q8i8ybWceWB184q00017dce@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020608150145.0096f7a0@minn.net>

At 04:23 PM 6/8/2002 +0000, you wrote:
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>     "Now of course, we need to figure out who would be in the cast of the 
>TML Horror Picture Show..  Dibs on Riff-Raff!  I'd like to nominate Kiri as 
>my Magenta."
>
>
>Mr. Berry,
>
>     I was born to play the Narrator.  The physical simularities are 
>frightening.
>
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Larsen E. "No-Neck" Whipsnade
>

Uh, huh.

Can I be Doctor Scott?

[Isn't that Doktor Von Skott?]
[Shhhh!]

In case anyone is wondering about the 'sig' below, someone brought an
inflatable sheep (complete with hole in the ususal location) to last week's
show at the Rivervieew theatre for use in the virgin initiation ceremony.

Don't ask me how it was used.


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Jun  8 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML Timewarp
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020608150145.0096f7a0@minn.net>
References: <F184Q8i8ybWceWB184q00017dce@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020608143829.009f6c50@mindspring.com>

At 03:01 PM 6/8/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Can I be Doctor Scott?
>
>[Isn't that Doktor Von Skott?]

"Just what exactly are you implying??"

:)

OK, I have to go see that movie again... of course we have it in four 
different taped versions, including Kirsten's treasured copy of the 
Japanese Bootleg.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry            gridlore@mindspring.com
    http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
      http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"My god, I just put a contract out on my bedsheets"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 16:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Jun  8 15:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with space/Ping!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0206061247540.6202-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20608.143345.8H1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>
> On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Roseberry wrote:
>
>> As I understand it, everything in the universe is supposed to have its
>> own mathematical locating formula, a zip code if you will. Tweakers
>> simply move a ship, a rock, or a planet, from one zip code to another.
>> Now, if someone knows how to do the engineering for this, I got a sweet
>> deal for you...
>
> Change of Address forms, located at your local post office. <g>
>
> But yes, the engineering was missing part for me.  It had something to do
> with the Thinkers (AIs) thinking 'deep enough' or something and just
> "tweaking" *something*.  That something eluded me.

I haven't read the book, but from various references I've seen, the
basic idea is equivalent to the universe being a big computer program.
And they tweak the parameters governing a given "object" in the
"dataspace".

In short, to move you from New York to San Francisco "all" I'd need to
do is change the location decriptor of the data structure that *is*
you. 

*How* one can manipulate the structure of reality at this level is the
trick.

"All" you need to do is be able to do the equivalent of edit a field in
a database. Finding the database and being able to edit it are the real
problems.

At a much "coarser" level, a number of SF stories (and some speculation
by real physicists) has ideas such as being able "seperate" things like
momentum from an object. This lets you do neat things too. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 16:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Jun  8 15:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <20020608202506.A10874@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <m3ofep7z7f.fsf_-_@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <20607.222344.3q2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <20020608202506.A10874@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <m3d6v15rer.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> 
> It was obviously a deliberate troll.

That hurts.  I never troll--I write what I believe.  Trolls try to
start arguments for argument's sake.

And I did convert the code from using Kelvin (which was a holdover
from starting with a GT mindset) to Rankine.  It took a smallish
amount of work, but I did it because it was worth it to me.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Resurrexit!  Vere Resurrexit!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 17:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Jun  8 16:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEIGEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEIGEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <p04330100b9283eb490e9@[143.232.119.186]>

At 7:28 PM -0400 6/7/02, Terry Carlino wrote:
>This assumes that the PC's are members of the general population. I maintain
>that this is almost never true. PC's are members of a very small and elite
>group, generally consisting of military veterans (except those of the
>"other" career), who are often themselves members of the Traveller's Aid
>Society, a gift given to only those who have distinguished themselves
>through service to the Imperium. Membership cost MCr1, so is not a trifling
>gift. Any PC's who is not wealthy and has membership has obviously really
>impressed somebody.


Well, most PCs aren't members of the TAS but the info isn't indicated 
as something that most PC don't know, so that says to me it is 
routinely promulgated beyond the TAS.  The character creation 
certainly includes things like very low social standing so that say 
to me that PC are not all the the elite of society&#8222;
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 17:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Jun  8 16:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Atmospheric Pressures and Charcters?
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b9283eb490e9@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEIGEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3D024B3D.29502.1974C52@localhost>

I have some questions regarding characters in a environment of 1.5 to 2 
atmospheric pressure.

Assuming standard gas mix.

Can they breath it unaided and for how long?

What type of devices can they wear to nullifiy the effects?

What effects would such pressures have on equipment?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 17:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Jun  8 16:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] a little help
Message-ID: <20020608.163025.-171357.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

 I have a scenario to play out, and would like a little help from the
best on the TML.
 For simplicity, use current Imperium TL.

The enemy (Hitler style)
Igallia Confederation (somewhere far away)
Territorial Gov & Law:
Gov:F	Totalitarian Oligarchy.
Law:E	Full-fledged police state.

Battle area (small out of the way system off the trade routes)
Ijaakla C2335??-?  D Ni Po 403 Ic
Pop: 400,000
D = Igallia Navy base
3 gas giants

 My fleet is stopping for fuel.

 Accordingly I can roll a starship encounter fine under MT rules.

 What I'd like to know is:

What amount of Naval force could most likely be called upon from Ijaakla
to attack my unsurrendering fleet?

Turokan
..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 18:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Jun  8 17:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] a little help
In-Reply-To: <20020608.163025.-171357.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEFFHKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

 I have a scenario to play out, and would like a little help from the
best on the TML.
 For simplicity, use current Imperium TL.

The enemy (Hitler style)
Igallia Confederation (somewhere far away)
Territorial Gov & Law:
Gov:F	Totalitarian Oligarchy.
Law:E	Full-fledged police state.

Battle area (small out of the way system off the trade routes)
Ijaakla C2335??-?  D Ni Po 403 Ic
Pop: 400,000
D = Igallia Navy base
3 gas giants

 My fleet is stopping for fuel.

 Accordingly I can roll a starship encounter fine under MT rules.

 What I'd like to know is:

What amount of Naval force could most likely be called upon from Ijaakla
to attack my unsurrendering fleet?

Turokan

It depends to a large extent on whether you want them as a regular enemy/bad
guy or not.  but I find it hard to count them as any real sort of threat to
any
TL 15 modern fleet.  At worst they may be able to bring down a fuel skimmer.

Seeing as they have a type C Starport, are poor, non industrial and low
pop and are off the beaten track.  I would doubt if they could maintain
a fleet dangerous enough to worry any moderately armed force.  Your probably
looking at a couple of low tech SDBs at best no matter how high you might
want
to set the tech level.  His total population is far less then the men under
arms in the Wehrmacht and he has to support an infrastructure in a frankly
rather poor planet to live in.

No matter how bad nor how totalitarian he may be, he is a akin to a tin pot
third world dictator and Igallia is a dirt poor backwater third world. and
the
fleet is about as dangerous, as say Haiti.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 18:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Jun  8 17:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <m3d6v15rer.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020609002425.14F92279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/08/02 at 04:36 PM,  ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
said:

>And I did convert the code from using Kelvin (which was a holdover
>from starting with a GT mindset) to Rankine.  It took a smallish
>amount of work, but I did it because it was worth it to me.

Wouldn't that be the other way around?  GT uses feet, pounds and
degrees farenheit. The rest of Traveller uses meters, kilograms, and
degrees celcius (or kelvin which is just celcius in sheep's clothing).
Well, except for the really, really original CT which did measure
planetary diameters in miles, but that's not what you meant, I'm sure.


IAC, I have to pull my calculator (or paper and pen) out to convert
any temperature that's not in farenheit. <g> Rob was telling me last
night, "The high yesterday was -3 c."...okay that's cold...um,
-3*1.8+32=26.6 f. Chilly, but not as bad as it sounded to the American
at first." <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 18:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Jun  8 17:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Making the Igallian's an interesting opponent
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEFHHKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

If you want to make the Igallian's a challenge 
here is one off the top of my head scenario.

If the Gas giant have many small moons, stick a
squad or so of marines with rocket launchers on each
and let them snipe at the refueling ships.  If they
collect mobility hits or fuel hits send in small boat to 
cut out the cripples

There is a Arthur C Clark short story, whose name escapes
me that describes the joy of trying to track down a lone
man on an asteroid from a space ship.  Just imagine the
joy of trying to trace down a bunch of them, with rocket
launchers and pre positioned supplies.  Historically, assuming
they lived in some kind of pressurized habitat usually
and spread out to their action stations when a incoming 
jump was detected.  If you want an analogy think of them 
as Submariners.

Organized like this they could pester and annoy a lightly
armed fleet -- at low cost to themselves -- and hopefully 
garner a piece or tow of salvage.  A larger or heavier 
fleet, would be pretty much immune tot his sort of thing, 
even if it still might find it difficult to find and eliminate 
defenders.

_____________
my other computer runs BSD
and another, Mac OS 9, and 
another NT, and .....
you get the idea

jml
jmlotzn1@pacbell.net
_________________

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 19:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Jun  8 18:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] a little help
Message-ID: <20020608.180328.-171357.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

John-Martin

On Sat, 08 Jun 2002 17:10:00 -0700 John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
writes:
> 
> It depends to a large extent on whether you want them as a regular 
> enemy/bad guy or not. 

They are regular bad guys. The Igallia control 2 sectors, and are TL-G.

>   At worst they may be able to bring down a fuel  skimmer.

That's what I was considering.

>   I would doubt if they could maintain a fleet

I was thinking a few SDB's, at least one jump ship to send for help, and
planetary forces.

> No matter how bad nor how totalitarian he may be, he is a akin to a 
> tin pot third world dictator and Igallia is a dirt poor backwater third

> world. and the fleet is about as dangerous, as say Haiti.

Perhaps, but the system is Ijaakla with an Igallia naval base.
The Igallia are ruthless, and will attempt to confiscate cargo, hold
prisoners, etc while jumping out for help.

So, when I roll for a naval ship encounter, I still may get -

Dice	Naval
2	Fuel Shuttle
3	Fighter
4	Carrier (100,000 tons)
5	Escort (5000 tons)
6	Fast Courier
7	Patrol Escort
8	Escort (1000 tons)
9	Cruiser (20,000 tons)
10	Cruiser (50,000 tons)
11	Cruiser (100,000 tons)
12	Battleship
DMs	+4 if system accessible only by jump 2+

Either way a fight is going down, I was only thinking of reinforcements
after getting rid of which ever I end up rolling.

Turokan

..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 19:04:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sat Jun  8 18:04:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Atmospheric Pressures and Charcters?
In-Reply-To: <3D024B3D.29502.1974C52@localhost>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEIGEAAA.carlino@cox.net> <p04330100b9283eb490e9@[143.232.119.186]> <3D024B3D.29502.1974C52@localhost>
Message-ID: <9a75gus37injphkoton7iqtr4rjodgva1d@4ax.com>

On Sat, 8 Jun 2002 18:21:49 -0500, sinbad@sbcglobal.net wrote:

>I have some questions regarding characters in a environment of 1.5 to 2=20
>atmospheric pressure.
>
>Assuming standard gas mix.
>
>Can they breath it unaided and for how long?
>
>What type of devices can they wear to nullifiy the effects?
>
>What effects would such pressures have on equipment?

I would recommend going to check on some SCUBA sites.  Based upon my
long ago experience doing so, I will note that 2 atmospheres of
pressure is found when diving at a depth of 10 meters (about 33 feet).
At that depth, there is little difficulty involved with nitrogen
saturation (nitrogen narcosis, not the Bends), and the oxygen from a
standard mix wouldn't be at a toxic level at that pressure.

By definition, at that ambient pressure, the internal pressure on the
subject's lungs will match the external pressure.  No great additional
effort would be required, though it might, barely, be noticeable, but
only briefly after a transition from a standard pressure environment.

Note that, after some period of time in the higher pressure area,
returning suddenly to standard pressure will require decompression to
avoid gases coming out of solution and forming bubbles in the
bloodstream (the Bends).  I don't recall my dive tables (shame on me
after almost 30 years), but I do recall that the "magic" number for
avoiding decompression was 60 minutes at 60 feet depth (the 30 foot
depth counterpart might be 150 minutes, but it is a fuzzy
recollection).  Any time less than the "magic number" didn't require
decompression; more and it did.

With the minimal effects of that pressure, you probably wouldn't want
to attempt to nullify the effect except in special circumstances.  One
of those circumstances might be one in which a person couldn't risk
developing the Bends upon return to customary pressures.  The only
known solution would be to keep the person in a pressure-resistant
vessel.  This might be something as simple as a sealed cylinder or a
hard-shell space suit or something more like a sealed vehicle.  It
would not be like the flexible, portable decompression chambers now
used as safety equipment on dive boats because the problem is
reversed.  Instead of needing to keep a greater pressure inside (as is
the case for divers who have ascended too fast), which can be
accomplished by preventing the flexible tube from expanding, your
adventurers will need to keep pressure _out_ and will need something
that can avoid being crushed.

Not too much effect that I can see on equipment at those pressures.
Again, if there is any portion of the equipment which is sealed at
standard pressure, it will be strained by the increase in external
pressure, but it really isn't too great.  For example, blow up a
balloon.  But for the tension of the balloon's skin, both the internal
pressure and external pressure are at 1 atmosphere.  Increase the
external pressure to 2 atmospheres and the balloon simply shrinks
until the internal pressure again matches the external (a 1 meter
diameter sphere becomes about a .8 meter diameter sphere).

Boiling water becomes a bit more difficult; you need to reach a higher
temp before it does so, and this would have numerous everyday effects
on many things cooked.

More than I should have said.  Now I'll let others weigh in.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 20:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Jun  8 19:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] what I rolled
Message-ID: <20020608.190733.-171357.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

Well, you're probably wondering what I rolled, here it is, I was indeed
fortunate.

Dice	Naval
5	Escort (5000 tons)
6	Courier
6	Standing By

Turokan

..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 20:10:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Jun  8 19:10:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Atmospheric Pressures and Charcters?
In-Reply-To: <3D024B3D.29502.1974C52@localhost>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEIGEAAA.carlino@cox.net> <p04330100b9283eb490e9@[143.232.119.186]> <3D024B3D.29502.1974C52@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020609120921.A16499@freeman.little-possums.net>

sinbad@sbcglobal.net wrote:
> I have some questions regarding characters in a environment of 1.5
> to 2 atmospheric pressure.
>
>Assuming standard gas mix.

That's not really easy to define.  Standard partial pressure of oxygen
(21 kPa) with the rest inert (nitrogen and a little argon)?  Or do you
mean in percentage terms (30-40 kPa oxygen)?


> Can they breath it unaided and for how long?

Yes, indefinitely, without any noticeable difficulty in either case
above.


> What type of devices can they wear to nullifiy the effects?

Nullify which effects?


> What effects would such pressures have on equipment?

Basically no effect on almost any equipment.  Sensitive anaeroid
weather barometers designed for 100 kPa (1 Earth atmosphere) might
break -- but you wouldn't likely find such a beast on such a world.

Sealed packages with substantial air content packed under 100 kPa
might crumple a little, e.g. bags of crisps would contract to about
50-60% of their original volume, with some minor amount of breakage.
There should be no effect on containers filled mostly with liquids or
solids, and obviously anything packed locally is fine.

Equipment that consumes air (e.g. internal combustion engines)
designed for 1 atm pressure may have to be retuned or slightly
modified for best performance, but should basically work without.
Again, no effect at all on equipment designed with the conditions in
mind.

I think there is a somewhat higher flammability risk if the oxygen
percentage is the same as Earth's atmosphere, but don't have any
figures handy to back that up.  If instead the oxygen partial pressure
is the same, I think there's a reduced flammability risk (again
without figures -- never around when you need them).

Moving from the local atmosphere to "Imperial standard" (which I think
is about 100 kPa) would require caution, due to the possibility of
developing "bends".  This could be easily mitigated by wearing a
standard vacc suit while decompressing, set to slowly lower the
internal pressure from local to standard over a period of time.  No
confinement in a decompression chamber required.  You could consult a
dive manual for the time needed, but for the purposes of a game I
would guess it to be on the order of half an hour or so.

Although it would be very unsafe to go straight from local to standard
pressure, given the nature of roleplaying games and in the knowledge
that "safe" isn't always possible, it should be noted that for this
pressure difference decompression sickness is not inevitable.  A
character who undergoes such a drop in pressure without decompressing
may feel no ill effects at all, may feel anything from minor to severe
pain, or perhaps may collapse due to a cerebral gas embolism within
minutes.  I'm not completely sure about the last one, I'm not a diver
nor medically inclined.  My brother who is a medic in a hyperbaric
facility attached to a naval base ("You bend 'em, we mend 'em") has
treated many such cases but I don't know from what depths.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 20:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Jun  8 19:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Igallia
Message-ID: <20020608.192053.-171357.3.generalturokan@juno.com>

Here's a glimps at the Igallia just in case someone's interested.


Igallia Confederation
---------------------

 The Igallia Confederation is a Totalitarian Oligarchy. Its ruling power
base
is similar to the ancient Terran WWII Third Reich led by Hitler. A
government
by an all-powerful minority which maintains absolute control through
widespread coercion and oppression.

 Its full-fledged police state monitors all factions of civilian life.
The
military and police are virtually one, united together forming a Reich
(for
lack of a better term).

 Trade and commerce is allowed, and strictly controlled, and confiscation
of
goods often occur. It is wise to follow all rules and regulations, and
hold
all necessary papers at all times. Delivery delays are frequent, and
prolonged
delays will bring even more suspicion.

 Igallian people are intelligent bipedal humanoids with two tone skin:
black
undercoat with white vertical stripes. Males stand 2.1 meters, weigh 200
lbs.
Females stand 1.7 meters, and weigh 130 lbs. All have light red hair, and
green eyes.

Turokan


..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 20:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sat Jun  8 19:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hapsburgs
In-Reply-To: <20020608041346.ADCD2279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCEKPCIAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> Doesn't that depend on which side of the river you live on? <g>
> 
> As big as the it is, don't you think there would there be several
> different ganglic dialects across the Imperium. Someone from Core
> talking to someone from the Spinward Marches might be speaking the
> same language, but still not be able to understand each other in
> spoken or, maybe even, written communication.
> 
It seems inevitable, considering the distances and time lags involved.
Look at China for instance. A person who speaks only Mandarin can't
understand a person who only speaks Cantonese, but they can read
the same books or pass notes!

-Shawn-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 21:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Jun  8 20:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
Message-ID: <F34mhxUPD453SlMiVZ700019d69@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     There is an ongoing thread at the JTAS boards that I feel needs to be 
placed before the TML.  Mr. Rancke-Madsen is preparing a write-up about 
Knorbes and is struggling with that oldest of Our Olde Game's imponderables; 
Just what in the bejabbers does a UPP's Tech Level statistic actually 
describe?
     Does TL strictly limit the type of equipment found on a world?  Or can 
devices from other, higher TLs be found?
     Does TL only describe the type of equipment that a world can build 
and/or maintain?
     Does TL refer to the tools and devices used everyday by the masses?  Or 
does it refer to the average TL that a planet operates at, with devices and 
tools from higher TLs used in niche areas, such as 3rd World nations using 
cell phones?
     Does TL generally refer to a world's wealth?  A low TL simply means 
that a world is poor, it simply cannot afford higher TL education, skills, 
manufacturing, and so forth.
     There are problems with all of these descriptions.
     I believe that the problem with describing TL in Traveller is due to 
the fact that CT, and its world generating system, came BEFORE the OTU 
setting with all of its suppositions.  The OTU presupposes free trade, 
indeed that is one of the Imperium's missions.  There is also not a blanket 
"prime directive" in place, worlds and cultures are not "protected" from 
contact with higher TLs.  In the OTU, "primitive" cultures, except in 
designated circumstances, i.e. Red Zones, are not prevented from trading 
with their more advanced neighbors.  In game terms, this means PCs will NOT 
be visiting worlds that don't use firearms, except in those selfsame rare 
cases.
     Unless the GM wants EVERY world in the OTU setting with a preindustrial 
TL to be the home of either Neo-Luddites, 57th century Amish, philosophical 
technophobes, "protected" cultures, or any other such groups, there is no 
plausible way for those worlds to be "bow and sword" primitive.  If they can 
trade, guns, and other devices, will find their way onplanet.
     Now the above is in reference to the OTU setting.  The OTU may be the 
363.63 kg gorilla of all Traveller settings, but it is most definitely NOT 
the only Traveller setting.  If YTU has an enforced prime directive, or if 
YTU is "low/no trade" rather than "free trade", or if YTU has oodles of 
religious/cultural technophobes, then YTU will have many Planet Krishnas, or 
War Worlds, or "The Man Who Counts", or any of the other plethora of sci-fi 
"lo-tech among hi-tech" situations.
     In my warped Whipsnadian way, I don't see a problem with how Tech 
Levels are handled in Traveller generally.  The problem begins when we try 
to force fit a GENERAL Tech Level rule, meant to allow GMs to create a 
multitude of YTUs, into a SPECIFIC setting like the OTU.  The rule was 
written before the OTU was created and backwards compatibility can only be 
stretched so far.
     Take GURPS for an example.  The basic rules set includes magic and 
psionics, but there are many specific settings in which both or neither 
apply.  No one is straining their frontal lobes trying to force fit the 
basic GURPS set's magic rules into SJG's new series of WW2 books.*  No one 
is saying that "Magic is detailed in the Basic Set, so we've got to come up 
with a plausible reason why magic isn't used in GT:Ground Forces."  It 
wasn't meant to work that way and that is extremely obvious.
     Tech Levels are described a certain way in the First Three LLBs, but 
their exact application will ultimately depend on the setting they are used 
in.  In the OTU, with free trade/no prime directive, tech level application 
will not be as "strict".  In other TUs, with other suppositions, tech levels 
may well be applied exactly as written in the LLBs.  The details will depend 
on the setting.
     Does all of this make any sense, or have I slipped a cog or two?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

* - This doesn't mean that magic couldn't be used in a GURPS WW2 campaign!  
Indeed, that sounds like a very interesting setting.  Read David Brin's 
"Thor meets Captain America" if you don't think so.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 21:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Jun  8 20:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <20020609002425.14F92279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020609002425.14F92279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m33cvx5cot.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com> writes:
> 
> >And I did convert the code from using Kelvin (which was a holdover
> >from starting with a GT mindset) to Rankine.  It took a smallish
> >amount of work, but I did it because it was worth it to me.
> 
> Wouldn't that be the other way around?  GT uses feet, pounds and
> degrees farenheit.

But Kelvin for temperatures of stars and planets...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos anesti ek nekron    |  Christ is risen from the dead
Thanato thanaton patisas     |  Trampling down death by death
Kai tis en tis mnimasi       |  And upon those in the tombs
Zoin charisamenos            |  Bestowing life

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 22:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Jun  8 21:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Talk (among the Zhodani)
Message-ID: <F2472044cY6PONBCiDt000012f4@hotmail.com>

From: GypsyComet@aol.com

     "One of the more infamous divisions of the Tavrchedl', IMTU, is the 
"Foreign Office". Known rather nebulously to Imperial and various Vargr 
polity intel agencies, the Foreign Office is the receiving end for a steady 
trickle of Proles who, despite (often multiple) adjustments, are not happy 
within the Consulate being safe. Depending on their stability, these 
wildcards are handed to the Foreign Office."


Mr. Comet,

     A truly superb and twisted idea, sir!
     I hope you will forgive my petty larceny, but your Tavrchedl' Foreign 
Office creation is now a permament part of the Wild, Wacky, and Weird 
Whipsnadian Traveller Universe.
     Bravo, sir, bravo.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 22:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Sat Jun  8 21:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <m33cvx5cot.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206090558230.9736-100000@svati>

On 8 Jun 2002, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

>> >And I did convert the code from using Kelvin (which was a holdover
>> >from starting with a GT mindset) to Rankine.  It took a smallish
>> >amount of work, but I did it because it was worth it to me.
>>
>> Wouldn't that be the other way around?  GT uses feet, pounds and
>> degrees farenheit.
>
>But Kelvin for temperatures of stars and planets...

Well that is a well established use inside astrophysics. The equivalence
between surface temperatures in Kelvin and surface color is something
any student will be introduced with and would probably stick with them
for a long time :-)

But who uses Rankine? Is there any scientific community that preferes
this scale?

Cheers
Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 22:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Mellman)
Date: Sat Jun  8 21:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
Message-ID: <200206090428.AAA04237@shell.cinternet.net>

Just to let you know how I do things IMTU, I use the TL is an indicator
of what the world is capable of producing on its own.  I draw my examples
from Earth.  Iraq may not have the technology to produce their own nuclear
plant, but they can buy one from the Russians or Chinese or from France.

I then use additional statistics such as how close the world is to major
trade routes, how populated it is, and how rich it is to determine just
how readily available higher technology is.

Also, for characters looking for weapons and equipment on a given world
it will be much easier to find an FGMP on an orbital starport than it
will at Bub's Country Store in the middle of the desert.

Finally I adjust the cost of an item based on its tech difference from
the local.  I usually modify the cost by:

    cost increase = 100% * (production TL - local TL) 

Thus a TL 10 item on a TL 8 world will cost 200% *more* than it would
on a TL 10 world.

IMTU the Terminator probably *would* be able to buy a Phased Plasma
Rifle in the 40 Watt range.   ;)

b

 ...........................................................................
  Bill Mellman
  mailto:tml@idbin.com
  http://www.mellman.net/bill/
  http://www.geocities.com/mellmanw/Traveller
 ...........................................................................

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 22:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Jun  8 21:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206090558230.9736-100000@svati>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206090558230.9736-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <m3lm9p3w8t.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no> writes:
>
> >But Kelvin for temperatures of stars and planets...
> 
> Well that is a well established use inside astrophysics. The
> equivalence between surface temperatures in Kelvin and surface color
> is something any student will be introduced with and would probably
> stick with them for a long time :-)

I'm sure--but I imagine that there's nothing inherently better about
Kelvin.

> But who uses Rankine? Is there any scientific community that
> preferes this scale?

Prob. not, since the last bastions of the old system fell to the
barbarians:-)

It's my library, and that's how it works.  If you don't like it,
simply:

(define canonical-set-temp trav-non-dwarf-star-set-temperature)
(define (my-set-temp star temp)
        (canonical-set-temp star (* temp 1.8)))
(set! trav-non-dwarf-star-set-temperature my-set-temp)

And so on...

There are neater ways to do it (Scheme rocks!), but that works.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Ha Mashiyach qam!  Ken hu qam!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun  8 23:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Jun  8 22:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Attn: Gen. Turokan
Message-ID: <m3r8jh2egw.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Found this site which may be of some use to you:

http://www.readassist.org/

Posting it to the lsit because it may be of general use to those
facing impaired mobility or vision.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Ha Mashiyach qam!  Ken hu qam!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 00:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Jun  8 23:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Attn: Gen. Turokan
Message-ID: <20020608.230322.-171357.4.generalturokan@juno.com>

Thanks,

I'll check it out right away.

Turokan

On 08 Jun 2002 23:44:31 -0600 ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
writes:
> Found this site which may be of some use to you:
> 
> http://www.readassist.org/
> 
> Posting it to the lsit because it may be of general use to those
> facing impaired mobility or vision.
> 
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Ha Mashiyach qam!  Ken hu qam!

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 00:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Jun  8 23:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <F34mhxUPD453SlMiVZ700019d69@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEGCHKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade
Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 8:50 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting


Ladies and Gentlemen,

     There is an ongoing thread at the JTAS boards that I feel needs to be
placed before the TML.  Mr. Rancke-Madsen is preparing a write-up about
Knorbes and is struggling with that oldest of Our Olde Game's imponderables;
Just what in the bejabbers does a UPP's Tech Level statistic actually
describe?
     Does TL strictly limit the type of equipment found on a world?  Or can
devices from other, higher TLs be found?
     Does TL only describe the type of equipment that a world can build
and/or maintain?
     Does TL refer to the tools and devices used everyday by the masses?  Or
does it refer to the average TL that a planet operates at, with devices and
tools from higher TLs used in niche areas, such as 3rd World nations using
cell phones?
     Does TL generally refer to a world's wealth?  A low TL simply means
that a world is poor, it simply cannot afford higher TL education, skills,
manufacturing, and so forth.
     There are problems with all of these descriptions.
     I believe that the problem with describing TL in Traveller is due to
the fact that CT, and its world generating system, came BEFORE the OTU
setting with all of its suppositions.  The OTU presupposes free trade,
indeed that is one of the Imperium's missions.  There is also not a blanket
"prime directive" in place, worlds and cultures are not "protected" from
contact with higher TLs.  In the OTU, "primitive" cultures, except in
designated circumstances, i.e. Red Zones, are not prevented from trading
with their more advanced neighbors.  In game terms, this means PCs will NOT
be visiting worlds that don't use firearms, except in those selfsame rare
cases.
     Unless the GM wants EVERY world in the OTU setting with a preindustrial
TL to be the home of either Neo-Luddites, 57th century Amish, philosophical
technophobes, "protected" cultures, or any other such groups, there is no
plausible way for those worlds to be "bow and sword" primitive.  If they can
trade, guns, and other devices, will find their way onplanet.
     Now the above is in reference to the OTU setting.  The OTU may be the
363.63 kg gorilla of all Traveller settings, but it is most definitely NOT
the only Traveller setting.  If YTU has an enforced prime directive, or if
YTU is "low/no trade" rather than "free trade", or if YTU has oodles of
religious/cultural technophobes, then YTU will have many Planet Krishnas, or
War Worlds, or "The Man Who Counts", or any of the other plethora of sci-fi
"lo-tech among hi-tech" situations.
     In my warped Whipsnadian way, I don't see a problem with how Tech
Levels are handled in Traveller generally.  The problem begins when we try
to force fit a GENERAL Tech Level rule, meant to allow GMs to create a
multitude of YTUs, into a SPECIFIC setting like the OTU.  The rule was
written before the OTU was created and backwards compatibility can only be
stretched so far.
     Take GURPS for an example.  The basic rules set includes magic and
psionics, but there are many specific settings in which both or neither
apply.  No one is straining their frontal lobes trying to force fit the
basic GURPS set's magic rules into SJG's new series of WW2 books.*  No one
is saying that "Magic is detailed in the Basic Set, so we've got to come up
with a plausible reason why magic isn't used in GT:Ground Forces."  It
wasn't meant to work that way and that is extremely obvious.
     Tech Levels are described a certain way in the First Three LLBs, but
their exact application will ultimately depend on the setting they are used
in.  In the OTU, with free trade/no prime directive, tech level application
will not be as "strict".  In other TUs, with other suppositions, tech levels
may well be applied exactly as written in the LLBs.  The details will depend
on the setting.
     Does all of this make any sense, or have I slipped a cog or two?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

* - This doesn't mean that magic couldn't be used in a GURPS WW2 campaign!
Indeed, that sounds like a very interesting setting.  Read David Brin's
"Thor meets Captain America" if you don't think so

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Re Gurps WW2, I believe historic Earth is termed
low to zero manna officially by SJG,

This talk about what exactly TL means has been discussed
once or twice since I joined the list with no real conclusion
arrived at,  I'm slowly coming to believe TL is a loose amalgam
of what the natives make to sell on the interstellar market
and what they buy in the self same markets.  in OT terms, out
Earth is TL 7-8.  The dominate manufacturing centers, USA the EU,
Japan and so forth build toys on this level and the lines of
large scale commerce build and sell stuff at that level.  This is
how infastructurially speak lower tech country have cell phone and
so forth.

IMYU, I am going for a split TL.  uncontacted planets with a
TL below 8 are rare on the ground and at least at the marketing end,
This in no way implies anything about the manufacturing capability,
which is on a majority of world lower.  Population and environmental
picture have a great deal to do with the manufacturing TL as does the
SP type.

Military stuff tends to be at the markets level

jml





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 00:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Jun  8 23:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hapsburgs
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCEKPCIAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
References: <20020608041346.ADCD2279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020608231659.009ffc40@mindspring.com>

At 11:00 PM 6/8/02 -0400, you wrote:

>It seems inevitable, considering the distances and time lags involved.
>Look at China for instance. A person who speaks only Mandarin can't
>understand a person who only speaks Cantonese, but they can read
>the same books or pass notes!

One of those little odd notes of history that I collect.. When European 
merchants first stated making serious inroads to china, the Chinese 
suggested that the Westerners take back Chinese writing and make it a 
standard; just refuse to do any business with those who refuse to use it!

The Westerners wear shaken to their Imperialistic roots by the suggestion.

Pity, imagine only having to have *one* set of subtitles, have a laminated 
card with stock phrases usable everywhere, instead of silly phrase books...

Hm, good setting idea there...

Anyway, an ObTrav.  I always saw the Vilani as a warped version of Imperial 
China, so would it follow that the Vilani might follow the same pattern? A 
single written character set that covers the concepts of any race?  The 
out-flung Terrans would either have to teach the locals the Terran tongues, 
or just learn to write notes and keep speaking English, or Russian, or Urdu.

Real fun; make the Vilani characters look like crop circle patterns.. the 
Earth is being tagged!


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 00:41:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Jun  8 23:41:41 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <F34mhxUPD453SlMiVZ700019d69@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020608232620.009fede0@mindspring.com>

At 03:50 AM 6/9/02 +0000, you wrote:
>     Does TL only describe the type of equipment that a world can build 
> and/or maintain?

This is how I look at it. It describes what the world can maintain without 
extensive material support.

Take the United States and Botswana, to pull examples out of my hat.

The United States possess both the tools and skills to maintain a TL8 
civilization.  We can feed our people, and make and repair the tools that 
build our machines.  (Yeas, I'm aware of the huge number of things that are 
imported, but that is mainly due to economics.. if it became necessary, we 
could produce everything we need domestically.)

Botswana cannot. It has no real industry, farms on a very basic level, and 
is totally dependent on imports for its high TL items.

If my computer breaks, it is a minor unconvienced.  We put it in the car, 
drive 15 minutes to the dealer, have him and his techs fix it.  Sometimes 
we go for lunch and come back to find it already done!

If I am in Botswana, I'm up the creek.  Computers are imported, as are all 
the repair parts, and the software.  The odds of finding someone qualified 
to work on the machine are devastatingly small.

This effect can also be seen in greater clarity in Cuba.  Cuba has been 
described as the largest classic car collection of Earth.  At the time of 
Castro's revolution, Cuba had about as many cars as New York.  Their still 
there.  The streets of Havan are filled with lovingly maintained 57 Fords 
and 59 Dodges.  Denied access to better vehicles, they rebuilt the ones 
they had and were capable of keeping them running.

Now, in the Spinward Marches, we have Louzy/Jewell.  High Pop, TL6  Louzy 
has billions of people, but not high tech.  I've always seen it as  a 
nightmare world of sea-harvesting and processed algae. Should all trade 
just stop, the best they could do is a WWII level of technologies.

This doesn't mean you won't find high tech on the planet, especially near 
the starports you will find people toting Hand Comps and laser 
pistols.  They cost an arm and a leg, but you can get them.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 01:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sun Jun  9 00:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] VACC suit
References: <B90071B2.5A991%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <028001c20f86$26b49b80$42d7f6d1@customer>

How about Varied Atmosphere Climatic Clothing ?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
To: "TML" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 9:34 PM
Subject: [TML] VACC suit


> I'm still thinking about the term VACC suit as an acronym.  Have we gotten
> anywhere?
>
> Varied Atmosphere [something] Clothing?
>
> The SCUBA analogy seems appropriate.  Isn't it amazing how players will
> thoughtfully create explanations for what was probably just a typo. :)
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> --
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 01:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun  9 00:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting  (Long)
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEGCHKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
References: <F34mhxUPD453SlMiVZ700019d69@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D02BCB6.29696.28F1251@localhost>

John

After reading this I think I understand what your saying.  Here is 
my take on it and how I think I would handle it. 

I see the original TL in the LBB's and world design meant to design 
a campaign not dominated by the Imperium.  With this in mind 
then its very logical to have mix TLs in a CT world.  What would 
probably develop is a lot of Scout/Merchant first contact 
adventures.  This may explain why only scouts and merchants got 
ships from mustring out.

But this in no way explains how  tech level 5 world can exist in the 
core sector of the OTU 3 Imperium of all but T4 :)  Which also 
explains why T4 setting though not well done was probably a good 
idea.  In T4 TL on systems could be low since once again you are 
doing official first world contact missions.  Again though in the 
1100 OTU we can not explain the problem. 

So what can one do, John is right for the most part if there is a 
TL13 world next to the T5 world then the T5 will have T13 goods.  
Now then why a T5 world?  I would follow what has been a long 
standing rule and that is that TL equals what the world can produce 
on its own.  This means that without trade the world can only 
produce those level of goods.  

Which means only where trade is to a certain geogrpahic distance 
will you see TL13-6 goods. At some point in the backwaters of the 
system people wont be on grav vehicles only gas vehicles.  Now 
we can apply a lot of human geography theory here and map this 
out but heck thats more rules.  

We can also take economic geography theories of dependence to 
explain why these world have been kept in this state.  However as 
a geopolitical person I would have to wash my mouth out first. : )  

Well thats it for me at 230 am 

Tim Reynolds


On 8 Jun 2002, at 23:23, John-Martin wrote:

----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E.
> Whipsnade Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 8:50 PM To:
> tml@travellercentral.com Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
> 
> 
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      There is an ongoing thread at the JTAS boards that I feel needs
>      to be
> placed before the TML.  Mr. Rancke-Madsen is preparing a write-up
> about Knorbes and is struggling with that oldest of Our Olde Game's
> imponderables; Just what in the bejabbers does a UPP's Tech Level
> statistic actually describe?
>      Does TL strictly limit the type of equipment found on a world? 
>      Or can
> devices from other, higher TLs be found?
>      Does TL only describe the type of equipment that a world can
>      build
> and/or maintain?
>      Does TL refer to the tools and devices used everyday by the
>      masses?  Or
> does it refer to the average TL that a planet operates at, with
> devices and tools from higher TLs used in niche areas, such as 3rd
> World nations using cell phones?
>      Does TL generally refer to a world's wealth?  A low TL simply
>      means
> that a world is poor, it simply cannot afford higher TL education,
> skills, manufacturing, and so forth.
>      There are problems with all of these descriptions.
>      I believe that the problem with describing TL in Traveller is due
>      to
> the fact that CT, and its world generating system, came BEFORE the OTU
> setting with all of its suppositions.  The OTU presupposes free trade,
> indeed that is one of the Imperium's missions.  There is also not a
> blanket "prime directive" in place, worlds and cultures are not
> "protected" from contact with higher TLs.  In the OTU, "primitive"
> cultures, except in designated circumstances, i.e. Red Zones, are not
> prevented from trading with their more advanced neighbors.  In game
> terms, this means PCs will NOT be visiting worlds that don't use
> firearms, except in those selfsame rare cases.
>      Unless the GM wants EVERY world in the OTU setting with a
>      preindustrial
> TL to be the home of either Neo-Luddites, 57th century Amish,
> philosophical technophobes, "protected" cultures, or any other such
> groups, there is no plausible way for those worlds to be "bow and
> sword" primitive.  If they can trade, guns, and other devices, will
> find their way onplanet.
>      Now the above is in reference to the OTU setting.  The OTU may be
>      the
> 363.63 kg gorilla of all Traveller settings, but it is most definitely
> NOT the only Traveller setting.  If YTU has an enforced prime
> directive, or if YTU is "low/no trade" rather than "free trade", or if
> YTU has oodles of religious/cultural technophobes, then YTU will have
> many Planet Krishnas, or War Worlds, or "The Man Who Counts", or any
> of the other plethora of sci-fi "lo-tech among hi-tech" situations.
>      In my warped Whipsnadian way, I don't see a problem with how Tech
> Levels are handled in Traveller generally.  The problem begins when we
> try to force fit a GENERAL Tech Level rule, meant to allow GMs to
> create a multitude of YTUs, into a SPECIFIC setting like the OTU.  The
> rule was written before the OTU was created and backwards
> compatibility can only be stretched so far.
>      Take GURPS for an example.  The basic rules set includes magic
>      and
> psionics, but there are many specific settings in which both or
> neither apply.  No one is straining their frontal lobes trying to
> force fit the basic GURPS set's magic rules into SJG's new series of
> WW2 books.*  No one is saying that "Magic is detailed in the Basic
> Set, so we've got to come up with a plausible reason why magic isn't
> used in GT:Ground Forces."  It wasn't meant to work that way and that
> is extremely obvious.
>      Tech Levels are described a certain way in the First Three LLBs,
>      but
> their exact application will ultimately depend on the setting they are
> used in.  In the OTU, with free trade/no prime directive, tech level
> application will not be as "strict".  In other TUs, with other
> suppositions, tech levels may well be applied exactly as written in
> the LLBs.  The details will depend on the setting.
>      Does all of this make any sense, or have I slipped a cog or two?
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
> 
> * - This doesn't mean that magic couldn't be used in a GURPS WW2
> campaign! Indeed, that sounds like a very interesting setting.  Read
> David Brin's "Thor meets Captain America" if you don't think so
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> Re Gurps WW2, I believe historic Earth is termed
> low to zero manna officially by SJG,
> 
> This talk about what exactly TL means has been discussed
> once or twice since I joined the list with no real conclusion
> arrived at,  I'm slowly coming to believe TL is a loose amalgam
> of what the natives make to sell on the interstellar market
> and what they buy in the self same markets.  in OT terms, out
> Earth is TL 7-8.  The dominate manufacturing centers, USA the EU,
> Japan and so forth build toys on this level and the lines of large
> scale commerce build and sell stuff at that level.  This is how
> infastructurially speak lower tech country have cell phone and so
> forth.
> 
> IMYU, I am going for a split TL.  uncontacted planets with a
> TL below 8 are rare on the ground and at least at the marketing end,
> This in no way implies anything about the manufacturing capability,
> which is on a majority of world lower.  Population and environmental
> picture have a great deal to do with the manufacturing TL as does the
> SP type.
> 
> Military stuff tends to be at the markets level
> 
> jml
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 01:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Jun  9 00:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
References: <F34mhxUPD453SlMiVZ700019d69@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D03AD26.4C96761A@mindspring.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

>
> Just what in the bejabbers does a UPP's Tech Level statistic actually
> describe?
>      Does TL strictly limit the type of equipment found on a world?  Or can
> devices from other, higher TLs be found?

Yes. That's why yon Freetrader is packed with TL F satphones and a dozen TL F
commsats, bound for Marastan/Glisten/SM. Due to the recent unpleasentness there,
communications had pretty much failed.

>
>      Does TL only describe the type of equipment that a world can build
> and/or maintain?

Precisely. And the TL in the UPP is only the tip of the iceberg. A planet might
be particularly advanced in medicine or communications. Even Space Transport.
Gives the PC's a bite when they go to that TL A world intending to wipe up and
they get met with TL C warships.

>
>      Does TL refer to the tools and devices used everyday by the masses?  Or
> does it refer to the average TL that a planet operates at, with devices and
> tools from higher TLs used in niche areas, such as 3rd World nations using
> cell phones?

I took it to mean the common TL around civilized areas. Again TL varies in
particular areas of endeavor. As you get further from the center of
civilization, the support for TL drops. "Sure we can repair your Satphone mate!
Back at Port Darby. There must be a dozen 'tronicists there."

>
>      Does TL generally refer to a world's wealth?  A low TL simply means
> that a world is poor, it simply cannot afford higher TL education, skills,
> manufacturing, and so forth.

Its going to factor into wealth. A TL B planet with a UPP pop of 3, is going to
have a lower GNP than the TL A, Pop 8 world. And again it depends, a Merchant
prince may have hired a Glistenite teacher to instruct his children in the
Academic arts. She'll bring high tech teaching machines, power supplies, etc....
not available to the general public

>
>      There are problems with all of these descriptions.
>      I believe that the problem with describing TL in Traveller is due to
> the fact that CT, and its world generating system, came BEFORE the OTU
> setting with all of its suppositions.  The OTU presupposes free trade,
> indeed that is one of the Imperium's missions.  There is also not a blanket
> "prime directive" in place, worlds and cultures are not "protected" from
> contact with higher TLs.  In the OTU, "primitive" cultures, except in
> designated circumstances, i.e. Red Zones, are not prevented from trading
> with their more advanced neighbors.  In game terms, this means PCs will NOT
> be visiting worlds that don't use firearms, except in those selfsame rare
> cases.

IMMTU TL 3- systems require permits for trade and are generally patrolled by
IISS. TL 1- systems are off limits, again patrolled by the IISS. And it may not
be this way for good historic reasons. The TL 6 culture that slipped back to TL
2,
the TL 1 system that rescued a shipload of Impies, etc....

>
>      Unless the GM wants EVERY world in the OTU setting with a preindustrial
> TL to be the home of either Neo-Luddites, 57th century Amish, philosophical
> technophobes, "protected" cultures, or any other such groups, there is no
> plausible way for those worlds to be "bow and sword" primitive.  If they can
> trade, guns, and other devices, will find their way onplanet.

Certainly, but how prevalent will they be? Can every Tom, Dick and Eneri get a
suit of Battle Dress TM in the Bazaar? Will they be unwilling to trade a couple
decades worth of savings for it. Then more cash for recharges. They might pick
up the relatively cheap satphone.

>
>      Now the above is in reference to the OTU setting.  The OTU may be the
> 363.63 kg gorilla of all Traveller settings, but it is most definitely NOT
> the only Traveller setting.  If YTU has an enforced prime directive, or if
> YTU is "low/no trade" rather than "free trade", or if YTU has oodles of
> religious/cultural technophobes, then YTU will have many Planet Krishnas, or
> War Worlds, or "The Man Who Counts", or any of the other plethora of sci-fi
> "lo-tech among hi-tech" situations.
>      In my warped Whipsnadian way, I don't see a problem with how Tech
> Levels are handled in Traveller generally.  The problem begins when we try
> to force fit a GENERAL Tech Level rule, meant to allow GMs to create a
> multitude of YTUs, into a SPECIFIC setting like the OTU.  The rule was
> written before the OTU was created and backwards compatibility can only be
> stretched so far.
>      Take GURPS for an example.  The basic rules set includes magic and
> psionics, but there are many specific settings in which both or neither
> apply.  No one is straining their frontal lobes trying to force fit the
> basic GURPS set's magic rules into SJG's new series of WW2 books.*  No one
> is saying that "Magic is detailed in the Basic Set, so we've got to come up
> with a plausible reason why magic isn't used in GT:Ground Forces."  It
> wasn't meant to work that way and that is extremely obvious.
>      Tech Levels are described a certain way in the First Three LLBs, but
> their exact application will ultimately depend on the setting they are used
> in.  In the OTU, with free trade/no prime directive, tech level application
> will not be as "strict".  In other TUs, with other suppositions, tech levels
> may well be applied exactly as written in the LLBs.  The details will depend
> on the setting.
>      Does all of this make any sense, or have I slipped a cog or two?

I think you fret too much Larsen. Have a glass of ale and watch this holo, its
the "Road to Antares"

>
>
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
>
> * - This doesn't mean that magic couldn't be used in a GURPS WW2 campaign!
> Indeed, that sounds like a very interesting setting.  Read David Brin's
> "Thor meets Captain America" if you don't think so.
>




--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 01:37:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun Jun  9 00:37:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML Timewarp
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020608143829.009f6c50@mindspring.com>
References: <F184Q8i8ybWceWB184q00017dce@hotmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020608143829.009f6c50@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020609093710.128a8001.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> OK, I have to go see that movie again... of course we have it in four 
> different taped versions, including Kirsten's treasured copy of the 
> Japanese Bootleg.

Since 2-3 weeks back, I finally own the movie on DVD... the next logical step is getting a DVD player...   :-)

BTW, lovely filk Doug ! Just what I needed to get Sunday started properly  ;-)

/Spacejens
 (with five hours of sleep after 21 hours of activity)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 02:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Jun  9 01:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Future Orbits
References: <NDBBIEPGALFKHNKLGFIJKEFNCJAA.tvanderneut@futureorbits.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c20f8d$a1674420$309193c3@martinjd>

Future Orbits #5 is now out, with an article by your very own... me. 

www.futureorbits.com 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 03:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun  9 02:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Santanocheev (was: OT Heard on the news)
Message-ID: <20020609.050812.-307991.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

> >My impression was that Santanochev's main crime, in addition to
seemingly
> >want to 'take over' Norris's role,
 
> What evidence supports this position?  I'm not aware of any.

Oh, that's all just IMHO.  Santanocheev has always struck me as the kind
of person who thinks that "of course" he can run things better, since he
is both nobility and military.  

Also, I've always suspected that's Dulinor's "illness" during the 5FW was
perhaps him recovering from an assassination (poisioning?) attempt.  I
don't think Santanocheev would try a direct coup, but if Dulinor just
*happened* to die, well then *of course* it would be only natural for him
to take over.  All in the best interests of the Imperium, you understand.

All this, again, is IMHO.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 03:37:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Sun Jun  9 02:37:05 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
Message-ID: <F121D08puO0C5OZ6AiF0001dcd3@hotmail.com>

   Well gang, please excuse me for being a *complete* dope. The VRF Shotgun 
apparently very similar to the SURF gun found at Traveller Central is, *in 
fact* the SURF gun found at Traveller Central.
   DUH!
   I'd written down the stats for the SURF gun in my notebook, and on the 
same page written down stats for this weapon I actually *did* see on the 
future weapon program. *Then* I promptly lost the notes :)
    Anyhow, the gun I saw was an apparent TL 9-10 updating of the 50cal HMG. 
It weighed a lot less than the 50 cal, and was much more stable; not 
requiring the apparent standard sandbagging of the tripod's legs, as with 
the 50 cal. In addition, it required fewer men to operate (only 2 instead of 
3, or 1 instead of 2 maybe?). It had some sort of laser/computer targeting 
equipment that'd adjust the aim or recoil or something,so the fire would be 
more (maybe even frighteningly so?)accurate, and it fired these bigass 
looking rounds; 20mm or more, maybe? The thing had an autoloader that put 1 
round into the chamber at a time in a bolt-action reloading sort of way, and 
I believe it could fire 400 rpm.When it fired, it looked as if the barrel 
would be knocked back like some sort of piston.
   There, does *that* one sound familiar to anyone?
   Still feeling silly,
  -Ken-


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 04:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun  9 03:17:05 2002
Subject: [TML] (OT) pics from "Firefly"
Message-ID: <20020609.061133.-707811.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

aka "Traveller: The Televesion Series"  ;-)

http://www.fireflyfans.net/feature.asp?f=14


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 04:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun  9 03:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Santanocheev (was: OT Heard on the news)
Message-ID: <20020609.063626.-707811.1.Knightsky@juno.com>


On Sun, 9 Jun 2002 05:08:08 -0400 knightsky@juno.com writes:

> don't think Santanocheev would try a direct coup, but if Dulinor 
								 ********

Whoops!  I meant Norris there, not Dulinor.  Gah! 
 

                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 05:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Jun  9 04:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <E17GjL4-0002KZ-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20609.032511.2i2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The degree to which *any* world in the Imperium (or in any other of 
> the large states) will have access to at least some portions of TL 
> 12+ tech is something that I'd *love* to see treated in some 
> Traveller sourcebook.  Way too many descriptions describe low 
> tech worlds as places with only low tech, except for what the PCs 
> are carrying, which simply isn't going to be true.  I'm guessing 
> imported satellite cell phones will be a common mark of status for 
> the members of any TL 5-7 civilization (especially since a large 
> crate of those things will be a very profitable item for a tramp 
> freighter to carry), and the occasional rich person will have a robot 
> butler or bodyguard.

Don't forget that those phones are useless unless somone puts in the
hundred or more satellites required to support them. And a facility to
*maintain* said satellites. 

Cell phones are useless without the towers and the *wired* network that
supports them. You can link towers with microwave links, but it gets
messy. 

Satellite phones require a *lot* of satellites if you want a phone
that's not the size of the olfd "suitcase" units like the one the
CNN folks used during the attack on Bagdad at the start of the Gulf
War. 

Because a practical "handheld" unit has to have limited power and a
fairly small antenna. That means that the satellites have to be in low
orbit so the phone can link to them. Which means there need to be a
*lot* of them, as they are only above the horizon for a short time. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 05:11:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Jun  9 04:11:37 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEIHEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20609.030434.9O5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Much of the electronics used in the Nimitz during the period of the movie
> (the eighties I believe) was not that far advanced in actual fact. Much of
> it was simply the application of knowledge that was unknown in the 1940's.
> The actual technology was known, just not how to apply it. For example both
> circuit boards and transistors can be made using simple photographic etching
> techniques that would have been possible in the 1940's, if someone had
> understood the material science involved.

Nope. the technology *wasn't* known. To make transistors requires
hyperpure silicon grown into perfect crystals. 

The technology could be duplicated, but nobody on the Nimitz is apt to
know *how* it is done. Many may not even realize *how* pure the silicon
has to be. 

To give you an idea, the dopants in a 100 kilo silicon ingot amount to
less than a gram. The allowable impurities are well below the
*milligram* level. 

I used to work with this stuff. There's a *lot* more to merely
producing the silicon wafers that you use those pohoto etching
techniques to etch circuits onto than even folks in other segments of
the electronics industry realize.

> Heck if the Nimitz library is in any way equal the library of the U.S.S.
> John F. Kennedy I can guarantee the sufficient knowledge was on board to
> bootstrap a country with as much innovativeness as the U.S. rapidly up a
> tech level.

Sure, but even the *simple*ICs from a 1980 era carrier and planes are
2-3 TLs above the tech in 1941.

Heck, some of the tech involved in producing ICs is stuff that came out
of the chemical engineering challenges in getting the gaseous diffusion
plant at Oak Ridge working. 

The gases used in epitaxial process are not easy to handle. They are
only slightly "nicer" to work with than the uranium hexafluoride at Oak
Ridge.

>>On the other hand, in the TU, the low tech forces on all but newly
>>contacted worlds *know* about the high tech gear.
>>
> This has always been a problem for me. Considered the present era.
> Countries which cannot afford decent roads, hospital care or even
> universal literacy always seem to find the cash to buy modern
> weapons, or at least weapons many tech levels higher than they can
> produce. Even if it means going so far into debt only debt
> forgiveness will ever get them out of hock.

Yes, but the transport/communication situation is rather different.

A lot of small countries have high tech weapons because the US or USSR
were willing to sell them to change the local balance of power. 

When the lower TL worlds are a week or more away from their neighbors,
it makes most of the "self-defense" and "regional balance of power"
arguments obvious BS.

Also, without the "freebies" during the Cold War, and with a rather
more realistic banking system than the one that let the third world
countries borrow so much money, they are going to have trouble
*affording* the fancy gear.

> Players need never expect to see the venerable ATV on any world IMTU.
> If the natives have progressed beyond riding animals they will import
> enough contrgrav technology to at least get their troops around or
> run bus services. There was very short period when one could not find
> an automobile in almost every area of the planet. That short 50 year
> period is over.

CG vehicles while be found. But stuff that doesn't need off-world parts
will be more cost effective for most uses. That's unless the parts are
*cheap*. 

Remember, the local government *can't* impress/intimidate the
"neighbors" because said neighbors are a week (or more) in jump away.

Balkanized worlds will be a differewnt matter.

> The contragrav bus might have a wooden body and rubber skids. But it
> will have a com unit. Such small items are almost certain to be
> imported rather than the high volume-low value items often described
> in Traveller game cargo manifests.

I agree that comm gear is likely to be a widespread import on many
worlds. 

>>So even if they don't have any, they will have a moderately good idea
>>of its limits *and* of any vulnerabilities.
>>
>>ACW era "infrastructure" could produce a *lot* of WWI era stuff, and
>>maybe even WWII era stuff. Just not in the same quanity, and not as
>>cheaply. But a lot of stuff wouldn't require major retooling.
>>
>>On the other hand, there's stuff that's 1950s tech, that couldn't be
>>produced in the 1930s without *major* retooling.
>>
> Except for small arms most military stuff has never really been mass
> produced. Ships are still almost entirely hand made, as is most of
> the equipment on board, often by semiskilled labor. Even aircraft are
> mostly assembled by hand, more like an expensive sports car than a
> family sedan.

Even so, there's a lot of stuff that would require too much time and
resources to be practical for equipment that is available in numbers
bigger than a handful or so.

As an example, you might equip snipers with a weapon that took dozens
to hundreds of man-hours of work by skilled (and thus rare) craftsmen.
You *wouldn't* make such a weapon general issue.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 05:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Sun Jun  9 04:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : Atmospheric Pressure and Characters
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOEIKCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Sinbad@sbcglobal.net wrote:-
> I have some questions regarding characters in a environment of 1.5 to 2
> atmospheric pressure.
> Assuming standard gas mix.

78% N2, 21% O2, 1% everything else.

No significant toxic effects. You need at least 3 atmospheres of nitrogen,
and
1 of oxygen to start running into trouble, assuming you have normal lungs
for
the latter!*
The upper limit for the partial pressure of oxygen on an Earthlike world
is going to be about 0.35 atmospheres (wet vegetation would
burn furiously if struck by lightning, say, at this sort of ppO2).

Tim Little wrote:-
> A character who undergoes such a drop in pressure without decompressing
> may feel no ill effects at all, may feel anything from minor to severe
> pain, or perhaps may collapse due to a cerebral gas embolism within
> minutes.

There's no way to predict the severity of symptoms with DCS, so you're right
on all counts.
The incidence is somewhere around 20%.

Returning to standard pressure could be done in a leisurely manner over the
course of a week. This approach seems to work to prevent altitude sickness.

Ob Trav :- acclimating passengers to their destinations during the week in
jump.


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

* - people with severe emphysema often rely on their hypoxic drive to
continue
breathing. Give them too much extra O2 and they stop...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 06:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Jun  9 05:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] a little help
References: <20020609035205.31C2D279DB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00ba01c20fb5$9bce9720$eeb18b90@computer>

From: generalturokan@juno.com
> Perhaps, but the system is Ijaakla with an Igallia naval base.

The naval base is the key.  It implies that there are likely to be Igallian
naval forces around, who won't be limited by the comparative puniness of
Ijaakla itself.  In short, there are whatever Igallian forces you want to be
there!

Even if they are not permanently based in the system, forces can just be
passing through, too.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 06:57:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Jun  9 05:57:36 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
References: <20020609035205.31C2D279DB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00bb01c20fb5$9f251520$eeb18b90@computer>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
> * - This doesn't mean that magic couldn't be used in a GURPS WW2 campaign!
> Indeed, that sounds like a very interesting setting.  Read David Brin's
> "Thor meets Captain America" if you don't think so.

Golden Age superhero campaigns can really rock.

You can also use magic in Horror games, too, of course.  Let's see:  it's
1945, and Allied forces are closing in on Berlin.  Deep in an underground
bunker, a lone figure is drawing a pentagram...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 06:58:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Jun  9 05:58:16 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
References: <20020608100508.EDAEC279C3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00bc01c20fb5$a27b9320$eeb18b90@computer>

On Pearl Harbour and stuff:  Pearl was only one of a number of targets
attacked in a massive assault.  It wasn't even the first attacked.  The
landings in Malaya had begun earlier.  (The International Date Line tends to
obscure this to some degree, as the attack on Pearl took place on December
7th, while the landings in Malaya began on December 8th.)  The first attacks
on Hong Kong occurred on December 8th, too, IIRC.

Bouncing the attack on Pearl would have greatly strengthened the Allied
position, but the war had already started.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 08:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Jun  9 07:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b9283eb490e9@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEJCEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>This assumes that the PC's are members of the general population. I
maintain
>>that this is almost never true. PC's are members of a very small and elite
>>group, generally consisting of military veterans (except those of the
>>"other" career), who are often themselves members of the Traveller's Aid
>>Society, a gift given to only those who have distinguished themselves
>>through service to the Imperium. Membership cost MCr1, so is not a
trifling
>>gift. Any PC's who is not wealthy and has membership has obviously really
>>impressed somebody.
>
>
>Well, most PCs aren't members of the TAS but the info isn't indicated
>as something that most PC don't know, so that says to me it is
>routinely promulgated beyond the TAS.  The character creation
>certainly includes things like very low social standing so that say
>to me that PC are not all the the elite of society"
>--

Except of course they are all "Travellers" in a society where space travels
is horrendously expensive. That makes them members of an elite group.
Perhaps not "the elite of society" but certainly not the average Joe in the
streets.

For example, if TNS is only available within the XT line, and only
offworlders and starport workers are permitted inside the line, then PC's
are members of an elite group with access to off world information.

Try to imagine being part of such a society. Unless you are willing to leave
everyone you know behind, effectively forever you will never leave your home
of birth. Chances are that you might not even know anybody who has ever been
off world, let alone out system. These people will think in ways completely
different from the vast majority of Travellers, PC and NPC, at least that's
my opinion.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 09:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Jun  9 08:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20609.032511.2i2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEJCEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> The degree to which *any* world in the Imperium (or in any other of
>> the large states) will have access to at least some portions of TL
>> 12+ tech is something that I'd *love* to see treated in some
>> Traveller sourcebook.  Way too many descriptions describe low
>> tech worlds as places with only low tech, except for what the PCs
>> are carrying, which simply isn't going to be true.  I'm guessing
>> imported satellite cell phones will be a common mark of status for
>> the members of any TL 5-7 civilization (especially since a large
>> crate of those things will be a very profitable item for a tramp
>> freighter to carry), and the occasional rich person will have a robot
>> butler or bodyguard.
>
>Don't forget that those phones are useless unless somone puts in the
>hundred or more satellites required to support them. And a facility to
>*maintain* said satellites.
>
That number of satellites is based on low Earth orbit. If placed in a higher
orbit less satellites would be required.

>Cell phones are useless without the towers and the *wired* network that
>supports them. You can link towers with microwave links, but it gets
>messy.
>
Many countries overseas are completely skipping the wired stage and going
strait to cell systems supported by microwave towers, to save on the high
cost of wiring.

>Satellite phones require a *lot* of satellites if you want a phone
>that's not the size of the olfd "suitcase" units like the one the
>CNN folks used during the attack on Bagdad at the start of the Gulf
>War.
>
This is a technological limit caused mostly by limitations in the size of
power supplies on both ends of the transmission. At higher TL's where this
limit doesn't exist, it should not be a problem.

>Because a practical "handheld" unit has to have limited power and a
>fairly small antenna. That means that the satellites have to be in low
>orbit so the phone can link to them. Which means there need to be a
>*lot* of them, as they are only above the horizon for a short time.
>
As I said above this is a technological limit. Basically this means that
it's technology limited. You still need enough satellites to cover the whole
planet but higher broadcast power and more sensitive receivers means you can
use satellites in higher orbits, with more channel feed thru to support more
phones. Higher power units (GURPS rechargeable power cells, for example)
mean that small hand units can be very powerful.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 09:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Jun  9 08:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Finds
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020609110410.00cc22b0@mail.charter.net>

I was at the town Library book sale yesterday and picked up a copy of 
Dragon Magazine #59

This is one of the issues that features Traveller.  The cover is a 
Traveller illustration.
There is  a Traveller story, "Skitterbugging" by Gene O'Neill. The other 
bit of Traveller in this issue is an adventure based on the Exonidas Spaceport.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Jun  9 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <200206090428.AAA04237@shell.cinternet.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020609111436.020cdeb0@192.168.0.1>

At 12:28 AM 6/9/2002 -0400, Bill Mellman wrote:
>Just to let you know how I do things IMTU, I use the TL is an indicator
>of what the world is capable of producing on its own.  I draw my examples
>from Earth.  Iraq may not have the technology to produce their own nuclear
>plant, but they can buy one from the Russians or Chinese or from France.
[snip]

I agree with this model and use it as well.  I had the players on a TL 7 
world in the Marches.
A nice enough planet if you knew the right people.  They left the spaceport 
and travelled in locally hired ground cars.
Local contact of one of the NPCs, planetary Senior Representative 
BunkenKamarade arrived in an armored grav strech limo.
Not produced on planet, but he could afford to have it imported and had the 
political contacts to operate it.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Mort Sahl: General, aren't you supporting Castro by smoking that Havana cigar?
Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.
(from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 09:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Jun  9 08:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20609.032511.2i2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <E17GjL4-0002KZ-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020609112831.02546008@192.168.0.1>

At 03:25 AM 6/9/2002 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
[snip of a good description of current cell & satellite phone tech]

This is why I typically have such tech as a cheap export limited to TL C+.

The handsets get small enough and the satellites get small and low 
maintenance enough to make it profitable.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
I'm what love is all about. I've got American Teeth
and a Spanish Mouth -- Fernando (Billy Crystal)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 09:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Jun  9 08:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20609.030434.9O5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEJDEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

> Much of the electronics used in the Nimitz during the period of the movie
>> (the eighties I believe) was not that far advanced in actual fact. Much
of
>> it was simply the application of knowledge that was unknown in the
1940's.
>> The actual technology was known, just not how to apply it. For example
both
>> circuit boards and transistors can be made using simple photographic
etching
>> techniques that would have been possible in the 1940's, if someone had
>> understood the material science involved.
>
>Nope. the technology *wasn't* known. To make transistors requires
>hyperpure silicon grown into perfect crystals.

This is a chicken and egg argument. This is an engineering technique that
requires knowledge of how to do it, not some unobtainable material that
can't be gotten.
>
>The technology could be duplicated, but nobody on the Nimitz is apt to
>know *how* it is done. Many may not even realize *how* pure the silicon
>has to be.
>
I think you vastly underestimate the level of expertise that you would find
on a ship with some 6,000 individuals on it, many, both officer and enlisted
trained engineers, machinist, electronic technicians and engineers. No
offence Leonard, but if you realize it suspect that more than one of these
individuals will have a clue about it.

>To give you an idea, the dopants in a 100 kilo silicon ingot amount to
>less than a gram. The allowable impurities are well below the
>*milligram* level.
>
I understand.

>I used to work with this stuff. There's a *lot* more to merely
>producing the silicon wafers that you use those pohoto etching
>techniques to etch circuits onto than even folks in other segments of
>the electronics industry realize.
>
>> Heck if the Nimitz library is in any way equal the library of the U.S.S.
>> John F. Kennedy I can guarantee the sufficient knowledge was on board to
>> bootstrap a country with as much innovativeness as the U.S. rapidly up a
>> tech level.
>
>Sure, but even the *simple*ICs from a 1980 era carrier and planes are
>2-3 TLs above the tech in 1941.
>
A carrier which also possesses extensive repair shops, include quite an
extensive array of calibration, micro-repair shops and other such things. A
carrier includes an entire Aircraft Intermediate Maintenance Department,
equal to an air station repair facilities. This includes a large amount of
spares, and raw material to fabicate replacements.

>Heck, some of the tech involved in producing ICs is stuff that came out
>of the chemical engineering challenges in getting the gaseous diffusion
>plant at Oak Ridge working.
>
>The gases used in epitaxial process are not easy to handle. They are
>only slightly "nicer" to work with than the uranium hexafluoride at Oak
>Ridge.
>
which is the other point. I wasn't talking about these guys doing to on
there own. If a whole ship from 40 years in the future appeared on their
doorstep, with global war about to break out, every top expert in the
country would likely be called in by the president to help. I suspect that
people of the caliber of the folks who ended up working on the Manhattan
project would be all over this. I suspect that those books in the ship's
library, plus what those engineers from the future could tell them would
give them a big leg up over the Axis.

>>>On the other hand, in the TU, the low tech forces on all but newly
>>>contacted worlds *know* about the high tech gear.
>>>
>> This has always been a problem for me. Considered the present era.
>> Countries which cannot afford decent roads, hospital care or even
>> universal literacy always seem to find the cash to buy modern
>> weapons, or at least weapons many tech levels higher than they can
>> produce. Even if it means going so far into debt only debt
>> forgiveness will ever get them out of hock.
>
>Yes, but the transport/communication situation is rather different.
>
>A lot of small countries have high tech weapons because the US or USSR
>were willing to sell them to change the local balance of power.
>
>When the lower TL worlds are a week or more away from their neighbors,
>it makes most of the "self-defense" and "regional balance of power"
>arguments obvious BS.
>
>Also, without the "freebies" during the Cold War, and with a rather
>more realistic banking system than the one that let the third world
>countries borrow so much money, they are going to have trouble
>*affording* the fancy gear.
>
>> Players need never expect to see the venerable ATV on any world IMTU.
>> If the natives have progressed beyond riding animals they will import
>> enough contrgrav technology to at least get their troops around or
>> run bus services. There was very short period when one could not find
>> an automobile in almost every area of the planet. That short 50 year
>> period is over.
>
>CG vehicles while be found. But stuff that doesn't need off-world parts
>will be more cost effective for most uses. That's unless the parts are
>*cheap*.
>
Cheap is a relative term. If I think it is necessary for my survival then
whatever it costs is cheap. Internal combustion engines require a massive,
expensive support structure. If real costs are calculated: find oil, drill
oil, transport oil, crack oil to make gasoline, lubrication oil, grease,
etc. Set up a system of refueling stations, repair (service) stations, etc.
Create a system of ground roads.  It's looking pretty expensive to me.

>Remember, the local government *can't* impress/intimidate the
>"neighbors" because said neighbors are a week (or more) in jump away.
>
>Balkanized worlds will be a differewnt matter.
>
>> The contragrav bus might have a wooden body and rubber skids. But it
>> will have a com unit. Such small items are almost certain to be
>> imported rather than the high volume-low value items often described
>> in Traveller game cargo manifests.
>
>I agree that comm gear is likely to be a widespread import on many
>worlds.
>
>>>So even if they don't have any, they will have a moderately good idea
>>>of its limits *and* of any vulnerabilities.
>>>
>>>ACW era "infrastructure" could produce a *lot* of WWI era stuff, and
>>>maybe even WWII era stuff. Just not in the same quanity, and not as
>>>cheaply. But a lot of stuff wouldn't require major retooling.
>>>
>>>On the other hand, there's stuff that's 1950s tech, that couldn't be
>>>produced in the 1930s without *major* retooling.
>>>
>> Except for small arms most military stuff has never really been mass
>> produced. Ships are still almost entirely hand made, as is most of
>> the equipment on board, often by semiskilled labor. Even aircraft are
>> mostly assembled by hand, more like an expensive sports car than a
>> family sedan.
>
>Even so, there's a lot of stuff that would require too much time and
>resources to be practical for equipment that is available in numbers
>bigger than a handful or so.
>
>As an example, you might equip snipers with a weapon that took dozens
>to hundreds of man-hours of work by skilled (and thus rare) craftsmen.
>You *wouldn't* make such a weapon general issue.
>
Go low tech enough and it is almost always the case that weapons took dozens
to hundreds of man-hours by skilled craftsmen. It takes a generation to make
a bowman, and a lifetime to create a master weapons smith. The invention of
mass production changed this, but that is a technological advance, and one
that could have been used centuries earlier, if someone had thought of it.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 09:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Jun  9 08:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
In-Reply-To: <F121D08puO0C5OZ6AiF0001dcd3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B928C6F2.5E0E2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/9/02 2:36 AM, Ken Murphy at murfnmurf@hotmail.com wrote:

> Anyhow, the gun I saw was an apparent TL 9-10 updating of the 50cal HMG.
> It weighed a lot less than the 50 cal, and was much more stable; not
> requiring the apparent standard sandbagging of the tripod's legs, as with
> the 50 cal. In addition, it required fewer men to operate (only 2 instead of
> 3, or 1 instead of 2 maybe?). It had some sort of laser/computer targeting
> equipment that'd adjust the aim or recoil or something,so the fire would be
> more (maybe even frighteningly so?)accurate, and it fired these bigass
> looking rounds; 20mm or more, maybe? The thing had an autoloader that put 1
> round into the chamber at a time in a bolt-action reloading sort of way, and
> I believe it could fire 400 rpm.When it fired, it looked as if the barrel
> would be knocked back like some sort of piston.
> There, does *that* one sound familiar to anyone?

Don't worry about it.  The weapon you saw is the new OCSW (Objective Crew
Served Weapon) and was featured on the show 'Modern Marvel' on the episode
'super guns' IIRC. The OCSW is the support weapon mate for the OICW.  It
feature a laser range finder and programmable airbursting munitions to
significantly increase lethality.  It is due to enter service 2008.

A web search or OCSW should tun up a few sites.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 09:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Jun  9 08:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20609.032511.2i2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B928C772.5E0E3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/9/02 4:25 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

> 
> Satellite phones require a *lot* of satellites if you want a phone
> that's not the size of the olfd "suitcase" units like the one the
> CNN folks used during the attack on Bagdad at the start of the Gulf
> War. 

66 according to Motorola's Iridium project
> 
> Because a practical "handheld" unit has to have limited power and a
> fairly small antenna. That means that the satellites have to be in low
> orbit so the phone can link to them. Which means there need to be a
> *lot* of them, as they are only above the horizon for a short time.

The antenna size is a function of the wavelength used, but yes.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 10:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Jun  9 09:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEJDEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <B928CC7A.5E0E8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/9/02 8:32 AM, Terry Carlino at carlino@cox.net wrote:

>> As an example, you might equip snipers with a weapon that took dozens
>> to hundreds of man-hours of work by skilled (and thus rare) craftsmen.
>> You *wouldn't* make such a weapon general issue.
>> 
> Go low tech enough and it is almost always the case that weapons took dozens
> to hundreds of man-hours by skilled craftsmen. It takes a generation to make
> a bowman, and a lifetime to create a master weapons smith. The invention of
> mass production changed this, but that is a technological advance, and one
> that could have been used centuries earlier, if someone had thought of it.

This point merely serves to illustrate you own argument that value will
justify cost.  Another point missed is that many technological advances
don't rely on any great advance in technology, just seeing things in a
different way.

I'll use small arms as an example, starting with percussion ignition.  The
flintlock mechanism was not reliable, was slow and difficult to produce and
was easily effected by the weather.  The percussion cap solved all these
problems without any new technology, just by applying existent technology in
a new way.

The same is true of the minie ball, which made muzzle loading rifles
practical as general issue military weapons.

The cartridge case didn't require any new technology, just a new application
of existing technology.  Even the machinegun was merely an application of a
new idea to existing technology.

The firearms manufacturing business is actually a very interesting example
to look at, as most of our modern manufacturing techniques came out of the
gun industry.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 10:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Sun Jun  9 09:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Eschiste
Message-ID: <JLHNDFAMDAHLKDAA@angelfire.com>

I'm posting official notice that I intend to landgrab Esciste (SM 2313)

I couldn't find any reference to it being taken on the landgrab site so I assume that no one else has earmarked it.

Cheers.

Having done this, what else do I have to do to make it official?
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 10:49:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Sun Jun  9 09:49:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: traveller software
Message-ID: <JIBACEFDBCHLKDAA@angelfire.com>

Sorry, I wasn't payng attention.
what software is it that I'm lookign at?:
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol/traveller/software/screenshot.html

It looks really good

I've been thinking about upgrading my version of H&E for a while. Can I port information I have from that into this?
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem



Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 10:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun  9 09:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (OT) pics from "Firefly"
Message-ID: <87.1ca0bb12.2a34e2fd@aol.com>

>aka "Traveller: The Televesion Series"  ;-)
>
>http://www.fireflyfans.net/feature.asp?f=14

Cute. The only drawback is that I'm not getting any money out of it.  :  )

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 11:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun  9 10:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20020609164805.B0CAC27A0B@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17H6R5-0001yq-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> > The degree to which *any* world in the Imperium (or in any other of
> > the large states) will have access to at least some portions of TL
> > 12+ tech is something that I'd *love* to see treated in some
> > Traveller sourcebook.  Way too many descriptions describe low tech
> > worlds as places with only low tech, except for what the PCs are
> > carrying, which simply isn't going to be true.  I'm guessing
> > imported satellite cell phones will be a common mark of status for
> > the members of any TL 5-7 civilization (especially since a large
> > crate of those things will be a very profitable item for a tramp
> > freighter to carry), and the occasional rich person will have a
> > robot butler or bodyguard.
> 
> Don't forget that those phones are useless unless somone puts in the
> hundred or more satellites required to support them. And a facility to
> *maintain* said satellites. 
> 
> Cell phones are useless without the towers and the *wired* network
> that supports them. You can link towers with microwave links, but it
> gets messy. 
> 
> Satellite phones require a *lot* of satellites if you want a phone
> that's not the size of the olfd "suitcase" units like the one the CNN
> folks used during the attack on Bagdad at the start of the Gulf War. 
> 
> Because a practical "handheld" unit has to have limited power and a
> fairly small antenna. That means that the satellites have to be in low
> orbit so the phone can link to them. Which means there need to be a
> *lot* of them, as they are only above the horizon for a short time

True, but the visiting merchant that sold them these things could 
have put up the sats *really* easily, and the locals could either pay 
the merchant to perform maintenance once a year or so (assuming 
that the merchant regularly visits that world) or simply get a bunch 
of easy to replace spare modules, a good book on simple comsat 
repair, and use one of their better grav vehicles to go up and fix 
anything that goes wrong.  If the spare parts run out, or they can't 
fix one of the comsats, all they need do is wait until the next trader 
visits and either pay them for help, or pay them to carry a message 
to tech support back on Glisten (or wherever).

This works far less well for a world outside any of the big empires, 
but even in the Spinward Marches most worlds simply aren't that 
many jumps from a TL A or higher world.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 11:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Jun  9 10:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
Message-ID: <F8t1o85BFrSLtiEaJLi00019e35@hotmail.com>

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

     "Cell phones are useless without the towers and the *wired* network 
that supports them. You can link towers with microwave links, but it gets 
messy."


Mr. Erickson,

     Most Third World countries are doing just that.  They're completely 
skipping over the wire period and jumping into the wireless age.  The 
developed world's continued use of land lines is due more to industrial 
inertia; we've sunk trillions into it and the infrastructure is already 
there, so we might as well keep using it, then any actual benefits land 
lines give us.
     Take Mexico for an example.  I was involved with a telecom project down 
there in the early 90s.  Phone service in Mexico was excreable.  Common 
waiting periods to have service run to a house was measured in YEARS.  In 
Mexico City, the single phone company parked all of its equipment in a 
SINGLE lot, this for a metropolitan area comparable to Tokyo.  Some "work" 
crews couldn't clear the lot and the attendent traffic jam until after 
lunch.
     Then cell phones arrived.
     Instead of attmepting to wire that country, a task that took over a 
century in the US, from the initial telegraph strands in the 1840s to the 
Rural Electrification Project in the 1930's, and a task still goes on today, 
Mexico was able to leapfrog beyond that type of comm system.
     Microwave links between cell phone towers may be "messy" when viewed in 
a certain way, but when you look at the alternative, they're positively 
"neat".  Wiring Mexico to First, or even Second, World standards would have 
taken decades and trillions.  Building transmission and relay towers 
produced the same result in much less time and for far less money.
     The phones used in this system are essentially disposible.  The towers 
are maintained by outside tech reps, very few Mexicans actually perform the 
work.  Now imagine the maintenance tasks involved in a land line system 
comparable to the one in the USA.  Telephone and utility poles are so common 
that we no longer "see" them.  Walk around your neighborhood and count them 
one day.  Then do the math, how many are in your county?  City?  State?  All 
nearly pressure treated wood.  Look at the fittings, the cabling between 
them, the equipment attached to them, the substations.  The list is mind 
boggling.  How quickly could such a system be built from scratch?  How much 
would that cost?
     Now look at cell phones and microwave towers.  We put one up every 20 
km or so.  Bolted steel construction, small shack of equipment below, 
several dishes above.  The labor and costs are miniscule when compared to 
our current land line infrastructure.
     For a low tech world in the Third Imperium, a land line comm system 
would be a luxury, probably limited to secure government and military 
purposes.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 12:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Jun  9 11:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab: Eschiste
References: <JLHNDFAMDAHLKDAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <3D044DAC.9F1AB7ED@mindspring.com>

Andrew Whincup wrote:

> I'm posting official notice that I intend to landgrab Esciste (SM 2313)
>
> I couldn't find any reference to it being taken on the landgrab site so I assume that no one else has earmarked it.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Having done this, what else do I have to do to make it official?
> ---
> Shan Andy
>
> "Wagging this appendage is
> the only creative outlet I have"
>
> Salem
>
> Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
> Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
> Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Get a cashiers check in the amount of 1 TCrimp and send it to the Glisten office of the IISS. Or just write it up post
it to the web and post the URL. The GOO's KNOW that you have grabbed it.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If a man who cannot count finds a four-leaf clover, is he entitled
to happiness?
           -Stanislaw Lec



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 13:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Jun  9 12:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEJDEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020609190356.9F010279FB@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/09/02 at 11:32 AM,  "Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> said:

Actually, this is from Shadow, but I deleted the original thinking
someone would have replied to this point...

>>Nope. the technology *wasn't* known. To make transistors requires
>>hyperpure silicon grown into perfect crystals.

That's not quite right. It takes hyperpure silicon crystals to make
the blanks onto which integrated circuits are printed.  The
transistors themselves are "impurities" laid on those blanks, and were
used as discrete units on circuit boards for well over a decade before
the first chips were created.  

Actually, the transistor was "discovered" in an RCA lab back in the
1920's, but was deemed to be less cost effective than the vacuum tube
at that time and so research and development was dropped. About twenty
years later it was rediscovered by Robert Shockley, this time in the
Bell Labs. At this time, the ability to produce them in volume and
cost effectively existed, so the transistor began replacing vacuum
tubes in all sorts of electronic equipment.   

Before long it became standard practice to mount the transistors on
circuit boards with the wiring "printed" on them. When the volume of
these boards with standard configurations reached some critical point
the idea of integrating the entire board into a printed curcuit was
born. These "integrated circuits" were printed in miniture form using
photographic techniques on silicon blanks, platters of silicon sliced
from large pure crystals, and then the blank is cut up into  "chips",
each a miniture (but complete) integrated circuit board. This allowed
the mass production of entire boards and greatly lowered price and
power required while increasing speed. We're still in this phase with
advances coming from shrinking the scale so that millions of
transisters can be printed on the same sized chip that in the 70's
could hold only a few hundred.

Yes, to *exactly* reproduce these IC's you would need hyperpure
silicon crystals...among other things...and lower TL's couldn't do it. 
However, it *would* be possible to reproduce much larger breadboard
versions of the same integrated circuits using transistors, wires, and
other components (even vacuum tubes). So...in Traveller terms, a TL5
society might be able to reverse engineer (or perhaps just use the
wiring diagrams) to create devices from TL6 or TL7, however their
reproductions would be much larger and heavier, draw much more power,
be much more costly, run much more slowly, and be much more prone to
break down...or so I would think.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 13:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Jun  9 12:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Santanocheev (was: OT Heard on the news)
In-Reply-To: <20020609.063626.-707811.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020609191011.5F3CB27990@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/09/02 at 06:36 AM,  knightsky@juno.com said:



>On Sun, 9 Jun 2002 05:08:08 -0400 knightsky@juno.com writes:

>> don't think Santanocheev would try a direct coup, but if Dulinor 
>								 ********

>Whoops!  I meant Norris there, not Dulinor.  Gah! 

Yeah, I was wondering how Dulinor got in there. <g>

I've always seen Santanocheev as having the personality of MacArthur,
without the talent. Not to bring the ACW up again, a lot like a
certain General of the Army of the Potomac. <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 13:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Jun  9 12:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] a little help
In-Reply-To: <20020608.163025.-171357.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020608.163025.-171357.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3d03a548.14955102@post.demon.co.uk>

generalturokan@juno.com writes:

>What amount of Naval force could most likely be called upon from Ijaakla
>to attack my unsurrendering fleet?

Putting myself in the shoes (assuming they wear shoes) of the Igallian
High Command, I ask myself the following questions:

1)  Why have I put this naval base on an out-of-the-way system?=20
Is it:

To act as a springboard for a major naval offensive?  In which case
you'll be facing a huge front-line fleet.

To act as a potential springboard, at some time in the future?  Maybe
I've established such bases all around my borders, and plan to
activate the appropriate ones when the time comes to pursue my
manifest destiny in that particular direction.  In which case there'll
just be a handful of ships as a garrison, and lots of pre-positioned
supplies and spare parts.

As a commerce-raiding base?  In which case there'll be one or two
cruisers or patrol craft in-system being repaired and refueled, and
the chance of more jumping in at any time.

To guard my lines of communication?  That means a small garrison, and
plenty of fast couriers.  The base will likely have good refueling and
repair facilities, and top-secret data revealing the locations and
current movement plans of all my fleets in that sector (so that
messages can be passed on to them via those couriers).

To suppress internal dissent?  Then mostly small patrol cruisers,
troop transports, and a bunch of ships optimised for planetary
bombardment rather than space combat.


2)  How big is my navy?  If I'm a typical totalitarian dictatorship,
then it'll be large but it'll also be fully stretched trying to keep
down my own people as well as fight numerous wars of aggression.  In
other words, I won't have many ships free for this backwater.



Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 13:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Jun  9 12:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
In-Reply-To: <B928C6F2.5E0E2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020609191734.BE6DE27A14@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/09/02 at 08:48 AM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>Don't worry about it.  The weapon you saw is the new OCSW (Objective
>Crew Served Weapon) and was featured on the show 'Modern Marvel' on
>the episode 'super guns' IIRC. The OCSW is the support weapon mate
>for the OICW.  It feature a laser range finder and programmable
>airbursting munitions to significantly increase lethality.  It is due
>to enter service 2008.

I saw something about this on some TV show, or other. It was supposed
to be able to fire shells over a wall, exploding them to shower the
enemy hiding there with fragments, or through a window exploding
inside the building. IIRC, this was using "smart bullets"...that could
be ?automatically? programmed by the weapons onboard computer.  I
remember thinking to myself that the ability to have a bullet turn a
corner and seek out individual targets must be right down the road.
<g>


Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 13:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Jun  9 12:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Talk (among the Zhodani)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEBPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: GypsyComet@aol.com
>
> "BUT" I hear the crowd cry, "how do they blend in?"
[deletion]
>Also, not all Consular humans are ethnic Zhodani. We know of the
Vlazhdumecta
>on the rimward edge of the Consulate, and there are undoubtably others...

In addition, some worlds in the Spinward Marches have changed hands a few
times, so there are no doubt ethnic Vilani and Solomani living in the
Consulate.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 13:33:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Jun  9 12:33:39 2002
Subject: [TML] re:   OT: Hapsburgs
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEBPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>I think that was meant in the same way that Romanov is sometimes spelled
>Romanoff, or the fact that it's now Bejing, not Peking.

Don't mix apples and oranges.  The Habsburgs wrote their own name with Latin
letters, which we are now using, and we may reasonably discuss what the
accepted or correct spelling is.  A somewhat different discussion ensues
when we talk about accepted or correct transliterations into the Latin
alphabet from the Cyrillic (in the case of the Russian dynasty) or from
Chinese characters (in the case of the capital of China).

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 13:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Jun  9 12:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
Message-ID: <200206091935.MAA06144@molly.iii.com>

John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> writes:

>Ladies and Gentlemen,
>
>     There is an ongoing thread at the JTAS boards that I feel needs to be
>placed before the TML.  Mr. Rancke-Madsen is preparing a write-up about
>Knorbes and is struggling with that oldest of Our Olde Game's imponderables;
>Just what in the bejabbers does a UPP's Tech Level statistic actually
>describe?

My stance, based on all real-world 'low tech' countries, is that TL measures
per capita GWP, with an additional observation that worlds will usually be
unable to manufacture goods above their TL, unless someone's moved a factory
there for cheap labor.  However, many worlds can't or won't manufacture goods
_at_ their TL, either because they just don't have the industrial base, or
because there's really no point (for an extreme example: a TL 7 world won't
have a space shuttle.  It'll import a grav raft).

This has realism benefits (varying wealth is much more likely to occur than
actual huge variation in technical knowledge), but has the problem that it
becomes fairly difficult to figure out what equipment will actually exist on
any given world.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 13:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Jun  9 12:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting  (Long)
Message-ID: <200206091938.MAA20439@molly.iii.com>

timothyreynolds@earthlink.net writes:

>So what can one do, John is right for the most part if there is a 
>TL13 world next to the T5 world then the T5 will have T13 goods.  
>Now then why a T5 world?  I would follow what has been a long 
>standing rule and that is that TL equals what the world can produce 
>on its own.  This means that without trade the world can only 
>produce those level of goods.  

Doesn't work, or all Low-pop worlds would be TL 5 or less.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 14:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Jun  9 13:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <m3d6v15rer.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20609.124914.1H9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
>> 
>> It was obviously a deliberate troll.
>
> That hurts.  I never troll--I write what I believe.  Trolls try to
> start arguments for argument's sake.
>
> And I did convert the code from using Kelvin (which was a holdover
> from starting with a GT mindset) to Rankine.  It took a smallish
> amount of work, but I did it because it was worth it to me.

And makes for a lot *more* work for anyone trying to compare data
produced by your code with any data from real world sources. Because
you won't *find* any astronomical data in Rankine.

It'll either be Kelvin, or the occasional celsius, with Fahrenheit
restricted to stuff that's been roughly converted for popularized
articles. And is thus *not* reliable as a reference.

You are prejudiced against the metric system. Fine. But don't try to
force people to do extra work just to suit your prejudices. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 14:19:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Jun  9 13:19:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <m3lm9p3w8t.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20609.125350.3W5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no> writes:
>>
>> >But Kelvin for temperatures of stars and planets...
>> 
>> Well that is a well established use inside astrophysics. The
>> equivalence between surface temperatures in Kelvin and surface color
>> is something any student will be introduced with and would probably
>> stick with them for a long time :-)
>
> I'm sure--but I imagine that there's nothing inherently better about
> Kelvin.
>
>> But who uses Rankine? Is there any scientific community that
>> preferes this scale?
>
> Prob. not, since the last bastions of the old system fell to the
> barbarians:-)
>
> It's my library, and that's how it works.  If you don't like it,
> simply:
>
> (define canonical-set-temp trav-non-dwarf-star-set-temperature)
> (define (my-set-temp star temp)
>         (canonical-set-temp star (* temp 1.8)))
> (set! trav-non-dwarf-star-set-temperature my-set-temp)
>
> And so on...
>
> There are neater ways to do it (Scheme rocks!), but that works.

I am now *very* glad that you are writing in a language I don't have,
don't use and probably never *will* use. 

And I'll save myself the trouble of considering trying to convert
your code to something I could use. Because it's obviously based too
much on the way you want stuff to be and nort on rules or standards. 

I wouldn't want to put in that much work and then discover that there
was some *other* "personal quirk" embedded in the coding or structures.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 14:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun  9 13:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Santanocheev (was: OT Heard on the news)
Message-ID: <20020609.162828.-391009.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Sun, 09 Jun 2002 14:10:12 -0500 "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
writes:
> >> don't think Santanocheev would try a direct coup, but if Dulinor 
> 								       ********
> 
> >Whoops!  I meant Norris there, not Dulinor.  Gah! 
> 
> Yeah, I was wondering how Dulinor got in there. <g>

Well, that's what happens when you post at 5 in the morning after having
a few malt beverages and a rum-heavy daiquiri... ;-)  


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 14:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Jun  9 13:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <20609.124914.1H9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20609.124914.1H9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <m3sn3w198t.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
> 
> And makes for a lot *more* work for anyone trying to compare data
> produced by your code with any data from real world sources.
> Because you won't *find* any astronomical data in Rankine.

In Scheme it is _very_ simple to write a function (trav-use-metric)
which will redefine the interface such that Kelvin is accepted
everywhere (it'd still be stored in Rankine, but it would appear to be
stored in Kelvin).  I don't want to write it, but if someone else does
I'd be glad to include it.

Which should quite handily deal with your objection.

> You are prejudiced against the metric system.  Fine.  But don't try
> to force people to do extra work just to suit your prejudices.

The only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do
naught.

Vox clamante in deserto, and all that sort of thing.

Don't try to make _me_ do extra work to support _your_ prejudices...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Voskrese!  Voistinu Voskrese!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 14:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Sun Jun  9 13:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML Timewarp
Message-ID: <085501c20ff6$af8cb1c0$b923f7a5@pctframen>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> opined:

<<Now of course, we need to figure out who would be in the cast of the TML
Horror Picture Show..  Dibs on Riff-Raff!  I'd like to nominate Kiri as my
Magenta.>>

Ooh! Ooh! I dib Columbia! Just got my hair cut shorter, too!

I think I could help Larsen keep the freaked-out nature needed for the
Narrator...

Fred "But I'd double Janet in a pinch" Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 14:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Sun Jun  9 13:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
Message-ID: <085d01c20ff7$de4fb6a0$b923f7a5@pctframen>

Me, I wonder if we might extrapolate from the diversity of tech levels in
Charted Space a culture not as in love with the ideal of Progress as our own
21st century Western one. In a universe where the pinacle of human
acheivement is often just a few weeks away, and several thousand years of
industrial civilization have worked out most of the kinks of just about any
level of technology, I think the decisions about whether or not to invest in
a higher technology would boil down to cost-benefit decisions, i.e. should
we import the tech, invest in creating the infrastructure to build it
locally, or just do without? A previous poster postulated a Book of Tactics
honed by thousands of years of warfare; I would postulate a similar book of
technologies ("Chapter 218: Introducing the Bessemer Process to a Bronze Age
infrastructure")

Certainly within the Imperium, it seems that the emphasis would be on making
do, preserving the status quo rather than on getting the newer/flashier/more
gadgety approach, especially if (as I and many others suspect) local tech is
frequently interspersed with more advanced tech.

Fred Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 15:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Sun Jun  9 14:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Hapsburgs
Message-ID: <087101c20ff9$1bc71360$b923f7a5@pctframen>

Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>

"Eeeeh... no... you don't change the spelling of personal names... Habsburg
is still Habsburg. And Ericsson (the corporation) is spelled with a double
's'."

To be fair, this seems to be exactly the kind of thing that was frequently
done prior to the 20th century in English writing. (I have read a history of
WWI that translated all the German names; Emperor Francis Joseph of
Austria-Hungary was something that never stopped leaping off the page at
me.)

The worst example of this kind of thing I ever encountered, however, didn't
involve written translation of a famous person's name. I was watching the
"News From France" (in French with English subtitles) a few years back, and
there was a story about a performance of the Missa Solemnis by Beethoven
being given in Paris. But then I suddenly realized that the newsreader was
pronouncing the composer's name as if it was French: Bett-oh-vahn. <Shudder>

Fred "'Louis de Beethoven' just doesn't cut it" Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 15:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Jun  9 14:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Atmospheric Pressures and Charcters?
In-Reply-To: <3D024B3D.29502.1974C52@localhost>
Message-ID: <20609.131946.7n9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I have some questions regarding characters in a environment of 1.5 to 2 
> atmospheric pressure.
>
> Assuming standard gas mix.
>
> Can they breath it unaided and for how long?

I'm not sure if that's high enough to get any oxygen toxicity or
nitrogen narcosis effects. 

I can't find the saved posts on this by our resident medical expert.
:-(

> What type of devices can they wear to nullifiy the effects?

If it *is* high enough pressure for the effects I mention above, they'd
need a very sophisticated "filter" that would reduce the partial
pressure of the problem gas to something safe *and* replace it with
something that wasn't a problem. You need to do the "replace" bit,
because you *can't* breathe againt a .5 to 1 atmosphere pressure
difference. As a simple test, try breathing thru a wide hose while
lying on the bottom of a 15 foot deep pool. 

You won't be able to inhale against the pressure of the water on your
chest. Heck, at *3* feet, it takes a noticeable effort to inflate your
lungs against the water pressure if you are breathing thru a tube
connected to the surface (3 feet = roughly 1/10 atm pressure difference)

> What effects would such pressures have on equipment?

Vacuum tubes have problem with high pressures. So might other sealed
units. And some "somewhat sealed" units will leak slowly. Which means
when you take them back to normal pressure they'll tend to pop their
seals.

Think of stuff like sealed containers of injectables and the like. Or
containers of food.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 15:10:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Jun  9 14:10:52 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Hapsburgs
In-Reply-To: <087101c20ff9$1bc71360$b923f7a5@pctframen>
References: <087101c20ff9$1bc71360$b923f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <m3bsak17mm.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com> writes:
> 
> To be fair, this seems to be exactly the kind of thing that was
> frequently done prior to the 20th century in English writing. (I
> have read a history of WWI that translated all the German names;
> Emperor Francis Joseph of Austria-Hungary was something that never
> stopped leaping off the page at me.)

I sort of like that sort of thing.  Anglicisation has a long history,
and IMHO may even serve a useful purpose, by pointing out the
similarities between folks (Franz Josef looks odd, but Francis Joseph
looks familiar).

Plus it means when you know the original you can impress your friends
by using it;-P

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Anesti!  Alithos Anesti!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 15:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Jun  9 14:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 19 Jun 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <tqh7guk4dgkmo0j0btd30n1mlkq40afa2q@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - Updated the #traveller IRC page and added the transcript for chat #1.
   These can be found in the Information Center. 

 - Timothy Reynolds has added a scene to Story #1 in And Then.... You can
   read it in Raconteur's Rest. 

 - Joe Webb brings us The Petrified Forest, a mercenary adventure. You can
   read it in Active Measures. 

 - Ken Pick has made minor revisions to his Beyond Book 2 and Modified
   Small Craft articles in the Shipyard. 

 - Part of an extensive planned reorganization of Doing It My Way has been
   completed. 

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the feedback form at .../infocenter/feedbackform.html.
Freelance Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to
visit our site and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our
existence possible.


Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 16:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Jun  9 15:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B928C772.5E0E3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20609.142743.7f0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 6/9/02 4:25 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>> 
>> Satellite phones require a *lot* of satellites if you want a phone
>> that's not the size of the olfd "suitcase" units like the one the
>> CNN folks used during the attack on Bagdad at the start of the Gulf
>> War. 
>
> 66 according to Motorola's Iridium project

Depends on a combo of items like orbital altitude, phone power, and
phone antenna size (expressed in terms of fractional wavelengths).

That's why other similar proposals have different numbers of
satellites. 
 
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 16:12:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Jun  9 15:12:49 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <E17H6R5-0001yq-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20609.143749.5B2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> True, but the visiting merchant that sold them these things could 
> have put up the sats *really* easily, and the locals could either pay 
> the merchant to perform maintenance once a year or so (assuming 
> that the merchant regularly visits that world) or simply get a bunch 
> of easy to replace spare modules, a good book on simple comsat 
> repair, and use one of their better grav vehicles to go up and fix 
> anything that goes wrong.  If the spare parts run out, or they can't 
> fix one of the comsats, all they need do is wait until the next trader 
> visits and either pay them for help, or pay them to carry a message 
> to tech support back on Glisten (or wherever).

Well, one point that gets overlooked regarding using grav vehicles to
reach orboit is that there's *big* difference between reaching orbital
(or higher) altitude and achieving orbit.

That grav vehicle not only has to get up to the right altitude, it has
to be moving at 8 km/sec in the right direction (assuming an earthlike
planet). 

But my basic idea was that it takes more than *just* the phones. You'd
need a number of Dtons of cargo space for the satellites, spare parts,
etc. 

I expect that there'd be several "levels" of satellite installations
that planets get. 

1. minimal

Geosynch comsats with weather monitoring. And possibly a statite or a
solar powered CG supported unit over each pole. This gives full coverage
for weather, and for vehicle and "larger" (suitcase sized or bigger)
comm units.

May include direct broadcast video capability for propoganda/education/news.

Villages would have a receiver for weather, one or more displays for
the news/etc and a communal vidphone terminal. 

Much like the programs in India and other places with such receivers in
villages.

Easy to set up, moderate profit both from selling the receivers and
from charges for phone and vid services. Most maintenance is in keeping
the ground and vehicle units working. Space-based compoents can be
larger and easy to work on, or even actual stations. 

2. expanded

Low altitude constellation of phone satellites added to minimal setup,
along with search and rescue beacon locating capacity. Handheld phone
now possible, as well as pocket sized ditress beacons. 

Survey/surveillance satellites may also be added (possibly in the same
satellites, anybody know if the altitudes used by the two types are
compatible? 

GPS (at lower resoultion than on earth) may be added as well. Again,
anybody know if the numbers and altitudes of the GPS satellites are
compatible with phone service or survey/surveillance? If it is, then
you can get as good a resolution as on earth, if not better.

3. "Full"

Full setup, geosync, sat phone, weather, survey, etc *and* extra
satellites/stations at other locations to provide sensor coverage of
the 100 diameter limit and beyond, as well as space traffic control
functions.


There could be more "levels" but I think this is a good enough starting
place.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 16:13:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Jun  9 15:13:39 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B928CC7A.5E0E8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20609.142945.0D0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I'll use small arms as an example, starting with percussion ignition.  The
> flintlock mechanism was not reliable, was slow and difficult to produce and
> was easily effected by the weather.  The percussion cap solved all these
> problems without any new technology, just by applying existent technology in
> a new way.

Except that percussion caps *were* new technology. They appeared *very*
soon after fulminate of mercury was discovered. I don't have the dates
at hand, but I think it's only 50 years or less.

The flintlock may not have been that great, but compare it to its
predecessors. the wheel lock, and the matchlock. It *was* superior to
*those*.

> The same is true of the minie ball, which made muzzle loading rifles
> practical as general issue military weapons.

That is a better example of your point.

> The cartridge case didn't require any new technology, just a new application
> of existing technology.  Even the machinegun was merely an application of a
> new idea to existing technology.

Actually it did. I don't think that mass produced cartridge cases were
*possible* much before when they entered use. They require special
equipment that didn't exist much before the mid-1800s.

> The firearms manufacturing business is actually a very interesting example
> to look at, as most of our modern manufacturing techniques came out of the
> gun industry.

Right they techniques were invented and then used by the gun industry.
That's different from your claim of "all it took was a new way of
looking at things". 

The technology (fulminate of mercury, drawn brass cases, etc) had to be
invented *then* it could be applied. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 16:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun Jun  9 15:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Santanocheev
In-Reply-To: <20020609093806.3BD97279F3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206100026020.29261-100000@ask.diku.dk>

"knightsky@juno.com" writes:
>>>My impression was that Santanochev's main crime, in addition to
>>>seemingly want to 'take over' Norris's role,

Norris' problem was that Santanocheev had the rold _Norris_ wanted. Santy
was Sector admiral and had command of all Imperial forces in the sector.
(I use that as evidence for my cliam that Norris is 'only' a subsector
duke and not the sector duke; if he had been the sector duke, he would
have had the authority to replace Santy. Since he obviously didn't, he
can't have been.)

>Also, I've always suspected that's Dulinor's "illness" during the 5FW was
>perhaps him recovering from an assassination (poisioning?) attempt.

I'm assuming you mean Norris' illness. That was a sham on Norris' part.
Some time before the 5FW he had sent a request to the Emperor asking for
authority to lead the Imperial forces in the Marches. The Imperial Warrant
granting him his wish had been on a cruiser that went down on Algine, an
interdicted world. Norris had some very vague evidence suggesting
that his warrant might be abourd that cruiser. His problem was that
evidently subsector dukes do not have the authority to authorize
exceptions to interdicts even in their own duchies (strangely enough), so
he pretended to be sick and led a secret expedition down on the surface of
Algine to find his warrant. When he returned he removed Santanocheev and
took over the conduct of the war. (All this is spelled out in _Spinward
Marches Campaign_)

>I don't think Santanocheev would try a direct coup, but if Dulinor just
>*happened* to die, well then *of course* it would be only natural for him
>to take over.  All in the best interests of the Imperium, you understand.

Santy didn't have to stage anything. He had greater authority than Norris.




Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 16:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sun Jun  9 15:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20609.143749.5B2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEIMHKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

n mail you write:

> True, but the visiting merchant that sold them these things could
> have put up the sats *really* easily, and the locals could either pay
> the merchant to perform maintenance once a year or so (assuming
> that the merchant regularly visits that world) or simply get a bunch
> of easy to replace spare modules, a good book on simple comsat
> repair, and use one of their better grav vehicles to go up and fix
> anything that goes wrong.  If the spare parts run out, or they can't
> fix one of the comsats, all they need do is wait until the next trader
> visits and either pay them for help, or pay them to carry a message
> to tech support back on Glisten (or wherever).

Well, one point that gets overlooked regarding using grav vehicles to
reach orboit is that there's *big* difference between reaching orbital
(or higher) altitude and achieving orbit.

That grav vehicle not only has to get up to the right altitude, it has
to be moving at 8 km/sec in the right direction (assuming an earthlike
planet).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Why,

As was said, grav tech is cheap.  I think it is likely to assume that
a commsat has a communicator on board.  given simple navigation
equipment a small power thruster and enough intelligence in the
system, it is easy to picture a dump out the airlock system that
puts itself into the correct orbit.  I hope that he sats don't break
too often and don't break altogether when they do.  a couple of spares in
a higher orbit could drop into the correct slot until the broken
bird is fixed.

This is a really common thing to do -- putting sats into orbit --
over a few centuries it'll be reduced to 1,000,000 to 1,000,000,000
population, 11000 ken in diameter, main population centers at 3000 kHz
beacon execute.  And it does.  So what if it takes 48 hours to self
assemble.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


But my basic idea was that it takes more than *just* the phones. You'd
need a number of Dtons of cargo space for the satellites, spare parts,
etc.

I expect that there'd be several "levels" of satellite installations
that planets get.

1. minimal

Geosynch comsats with weather monitoring. And possibly a statite or a
solar powered CG supported unit over each pole. This gives full coverage
for weather, and for vehicle and "larger" (suitcase sized or bigger)
comm units.

May include direct broadcast video capability for propoganda/education/news.

Villages would have a receiver for weather, one or more displays for
the news/etc and a communal vidphone terminal.

Much like the programs in India and other places with such receivers in
villages.

Easy to set up, moderate profit both from selling the receivers and
from charges for phone and vid services. Most maintenance is in keeping
the ground and vehicle units working. Space-based compoents can be
larger and easy to work on, or even actual stations.

2. expanded

Low altitude constellation of phone satellites added to minimal setup,
along with search and rescue beacon locating capacity. Handheld phone
now possible, as well as pocket sized ditress beacons.

Survey/surveillance satellites may also be added (possibly in the same
satellites, anybody know if the altitudes used by the two types are
compatible?

GPS (at lower resoultion than on earth) may be added as well. Again,
anybody know if the numbers and altitudes of the GPS satellites are
compatible with phone service or survey/surveillance? If it is, then
you can get as good a resolution as on earth, if not better.

3. "Full"

Full setup, geosync, sat phone, weather, survey, etc *and* extra
satellites/stations at other locations to provide sensor coverage of
the 100 diameter limit and beyond, as well as space traffic control
functions.


There could be more "levels" but I think this is a good enough starting
place.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

there is enough other expensive stuff that goes into a colony that I think
level
would be base line for a colony,  the first level is about on the class 1
(type e)
Spaceport would need.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

_______________________________________________


jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 17:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sun Jun  9 16:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <20020609224007.5FDEC27A2D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020609155629.009edc30@mailhost.efn.org>

On 09 Jun 2002 14:34:58 -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

> > You are prejudiced against the metric system.  Fine.  But don't try
> > to force people to do extra work just to suit your prejudices.
>
>The only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do
>naught.

Um... the metric system (and/or advocation of same) is evil now?



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 17:09:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Jun  9 16:09:19 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEJDEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20609.151541.4F6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Much of the electronics used in the Nimitz during the period of the movie
>>> (the eighties I believe) was not that far advanced in actual fact. Much
> of
>>> it was simply the application of knowledge that was unknown in the
> 1940's.
>>> The actual technology was known, just not how to apply it. For example
> both
>>> circuit boards and transistors can be made using simple photographic
> etching
>>> techniques that would have been possible in the 1940's, if someone had
>>> understood the material science involved.
>>
>>Nope. the technology *wasn't* known. To make transistors requires
>>hyperpure silicon grown into perfect crystals.
>
> This is a chicken and egg argument. This is an engineering technique that
> requires knowledge of how to do it, not some unobtainable material that
> can't be gotten.

My point is that while the photoetching techniques were known, the
techniques for producing the raw materials *weren't*. and would require
a fair amount of work to develop. 

>>The technology could be duplicated, but nobody on the Nimitz is apt to
>>know *how* it is done. Many may not even realize *how* pure the silicon
>>has to be.
>>
> I think you vastly underestimate the level of expertise that you would find
> on a ship with some 6,000 individuals on it, many, both officer and enlisted
> trained engineers, machinist, electronic technicians and engineers. No
> offence Leonard, but if you realize it suspect that more than one of these
> individuals will have a clue about it.

You need more than a *clue*. Very few poeople outside the industry (and
I mean silicon wafer production *not* chip fabrication) have the
specialized knowledge required. 

There are less than a dozen places in the US producing silicon wafers.
And much of the info is known to only small numbers of the folks
working there. Some of it is even trade secrets. 

The odds are rather large that nobody on the ship knows much more than
can be found in a good library, which will be *woefully* inadequate.
It'll take *years* of work to get it right. 

And there's the added problem that they wouldn't necessarily know
*what* they'd gotten wrong. 

Frankly, starting from 1941 tech, you'd be better off going for point
contact transistors than for anything involving photo lithography. You
don't need to worry ad defects as much. Nor to you need the precision
machined surfaces on the wafers.

It's *possible* to produce crude transistors using a variation on the
old "cat whisker" detctors and natural crystals such as galena (there's
a patent from the 1900s for such a device. It never went anywhere
because they didn't know *why* it worked, and the way they were using
it didn't work that well). 

It might actually be easier to introduce something like the TIMMs units
developed as radiation hardened systems in the 1960s. Basicly, tubes
the size and shape of a dime, with the cathode as a central "post", the
grid as a series of "posts" spaced in a circale around it, and the anode
as an outer ring. All made of high temp metals and ceramics, with the
capacitors and inductors made of similar materials. 

A module was a "solid" block of ceramic and metals that was heated to
dull red heat to elimiate the need for heater filaments. Good
insulation means it doesn't take much to keep them at operating temp.
And short of hitting them with a sledgehammer, they won't fail. 

Since it's merely a new way of using tech *and materials* that they
already have, it'd be quicker to implement. and the results are
actually *more* compact that most discrete compenent designs, since you
build them in 3D rather than on racks of flat printed circuit boards
with airspaces in between.

>>> Heck if the Nimitz library is in any way equal the library of the U.S.S.
>>> John F. Kennedy I can guarantee the sufficient knowledge was on board to
>>> bootstrap a country with as much innovativeness as the U.S. rapidly up a
>>> tech level.
>>
>>Sure, but even the *simple*ICs from a 1980 era carrier and planes are
>>2-3 TLs above the tech in 1941.
>>
> A carrier which also possesses extensive repair shops, include quite an
> extensive array of calibration, micro-repair shops and other such things. A
> carrier includes an entire Aircraft Intermediate Maintenance Department,
> equal to an air station repair facilities. This includes a large amount of
> spares, and raw material to fabicate replacements.

Not replacement transistors or ICs! Ditto for resitors, capacitors,
etc. Those are too small and too "cheap" to be worth the trouble,
combined with being *much* harder to fabricate than things like screws.

The semiconductor equivalent of a machine ship is *not* something you
*want* on a ship. Nor could use there.

>>Heck, some of the tech involved in producing ICs is stuff that came out
>>of the chemical engineering challenges in getting the gaseous diffusion
>>plant at Oak Ridge working.
>>
>>The gases used in epitaxial process are not easy to handle. They are
>>only slightly "nicer" to work with than the uranium hexafluoride at Oak
>>Ridge.
>>
> which is the other point. I wasn't talking about these guys doing to on
> there own. If a whole ship from 40 years in the future appeared on their
> doorstep, with global war about to break out, every top expert in the
> country would likely be called in by the president to help. I suspect that
> people of the caliber of the folks who ended up working on the Manhattan
> project would be all over this. I suspect that those books in the ship's
> library, plus what those engineers from the future could tell them would
> give them a big leg up over the Axis.

Yeah but it wasn't necessarily the "top people" that solved the
problems. It was *engineering* not science. And engineering geniuses
aren't much mentioned. 

>>> Players need never expect to see the venerable ATV on any world IMTU.
>>> If the natives have progressed beyond riding animals they will import
>>> enough contrgrav technology to at least get their troops around or
>>> run bus services. There was very short period when one could not find
>>> an automobile in almost every area of the planet. That short 50 year
>>> period is over.
>>
>>CG vehicles while be found. But stuff that doesn't need off-world parts
>>will be more cost effective for most uses. That's unless the parts are
>>*cheap*.
>>
> Cheap is a relative term. If I think it is necessary for my survival then
> whatever it costs is cheap. Internal combustion engines require a massive,
> expensive support structure. If real costs are calculated: find oil, drill
> oil, transport oil, crack oil to make gasoline, lubrication oil, grease,
> etc. Set up a system of refueling stations, repair (service) stations, etc.
> Create a system of ground roads.  It's looking pretty expensive to me.

You don't need oil. Alcohol will work just fine if the engine is
designed to burn it. and you don't need roads that much. At least not
roads any better than what the local wagons are using. 

You only need better roads than that when you have *major* use of
ground vehicles. 

A properly designed ground vehicle powered by (say) a well designed
*steam* engine could be repaired locally even if it couldn't be
*produced* locally. The hardest part would be the bioler, as really
good boilers suitable for car/truck use are rather more finicky than
the piston and valve assembly. 

Even so, I doubt that any good metal worker from the Renaisannce on
would have been *unable* to maintain such. He might do a lot of cussing
at the amount of precision work needed, but he'd be able to do it. It'd
just take time.

An internal combustion engine is harder.

But consider that if your ground vehicle fails due to poor maintenance,
you can most often *walk* away. If your CG vehicle fails, you *crash*. 

>>Even so, there's a lot of stuff that would require too much time and
>>resources to be practical for equipment that is available in numbers
>>bigger than a handful or so.
>>
>>As an example, you might equip snipers with a weapon that took dozens
>>to hundreds of man-hours of work by skilled (and thus rare) craftsmen.
>>You *wouldn't* make such a weapon general issue.
>>
> Go low tech enough and it is almost always the case that weapons took
> dozens to hundreds of man-hours by skilled craftsmen.

Actually, that's more true at middling low tech. Consider that it takes
*minutes* to produce a decent spearhead or other flint tool. And not
all that long to produce the spearshaft and attach it to the shaft.

Once you get metals into the picture or more complex weapons such as
bows, it takes more time.

> weapons smith. The invention of mass production changed this, but
> that is a technological advance, and one that could have been used
> centuries earlier, if someone had thought of it.

It *was*. Mass production of things such as arrows is documented from
several periods in history. Possibly things like amphora as well.

It never "stuck" because for the general run of things there was no
*need* to produce things in such quantity. Quality was more important. 

Look at some of the things that have been done to "help" the thirld
world over the years. 

The ones that turn out to have been the most *real* help are the less
flashy things. As an example, waterproof/pest proof liners for grain
storage bins. And the recent "low tech refrigerator" consisting of a
couple of clay jars with wet sand between the inner and outer jar.

That gizmo allows keeping perishable foods for a week or more instead
of for a day or less. And it's buildable at TL 0! 

There's also a "stove" that allows using something like 1/10th the
fuel. The "high tech" is in using advanced thermodynamics to design the
shapes of the rather simple metal parts. 

I expect that *rugged* electrical generators, capable for being powered
by anything from hand crankls to wind or water to animals walking in
circles will be a major import to low tech worlds. As will rechargable
power cells that can be charged by them. 

Locally produced generators will be bigger, clunkier and much less
efficient. But they'll probably exist as well. Depends on the cost of
building them versus the cost of buying imported ones.

Oh! The water filters sold in camping and "survival" catalogs will be
another big seller. Basicly a block of ceramic with precisely
controlled pore sizes and a coating of some metal compound to prevent
growth of algae and fungi.

They'll stop anything except disolved chemicals and medium to small
viruses. All at the cost of a bit of extra effort at pumping the water
thru them.

Likewise, you can design a "natural" sewage treatment system consisting
of a series of ponds and some plants. You can *drink* the output of the
final pond. And eat the fish from that one and possibly from a couple
of the preceding stages (though you should cook them well in the case
of the ones from the earlier stages).

The plants even remove stuff like heavy metal contamination. And you
could recover the metals from the ash from burning the plants (not sure
if it'd be desirable or practical at lower TLs). 

It's not necessarily the flashy stuff that'll be the most important. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 17:10:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Jun  9 16:10:10 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEJCEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20609.145813.8e0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>> The degree to which *any* world in the Imperium (or in any other of
>>> the large states) will have access to at least some portions of TL
>>> 12+ tech is something that I'd *love* to see treated in some
>>> Traveller sourcebook.  Way too many descriptions describe low
>>> tech worlds as places with only low tech, except for what the PCs
>>> are carrying, which simply isn't going to be true.  I'm guessing
>>> imported satellite cell phones will be a common mark of status for
>>> the members of any TL 5-7 civilization (especially since a large
>>> crate of those things will be a very profitable item for a tramp
>>> freighter to carry), and the occasional rich person will have a robot
>>> butler or bodyguard.
>>
>>Don't forget that those phones are useless unless somone puts in the
>>hundred or more satellites required to support them. And a facility to
>>*maintain* said satellites.
>>
> That number of satellites is based on low Earth orbit. If placed in a higher
> orbit less satellites would be required.

But the phones would require more power and larger antennas. that's
*why* they are in low orbit. To keep the size of the *phones* down.

>>Cell phones are useless without the towers and the *wired* network that
>>supports them. You can link towers with microwave links, but it gets
>>messy.
>>
> Many countries overseas are completely skipping the wired stage and going
> strait to cell systems supported by microwave towers, to save on the high
> cost of wiring.

True. But you need wired if the towers are "close" (ie urban areas with
multiple cells). 

>>Satellite phones require a *lot* of satellites if you want a phone
>>that's not the size of the olfd "suitcase" units like the one the
>>CNN folks used during the attack on Bagdad at the start of the Gulf
>>War.
>>
> This is a technological limit caused mostly by limitations in the size of
> power supplies on both ends of the transmission. At higher TL's where this
> limit doesn't exist, it should not be a problem.

Antenna size is a factor as well. Mostly on the phone end. As is
frequency (which affects antenna size). Shorter wavelengths give you
smaller antennas, but at the cost of possible problems with usability
in buildings. 

Also, there's a definite limit to the power that you want a handheld
phone to use. Both from a safety standpoint (while the "cell phones are
hazardous" folks are mostly nuts, there *are* limits) and from the
standpoint of interference to other units. 

>>Because a practical "handheld" unit has to have limited power and a
>>fairly small antenna. That means that the satellites have to be in low
>>orbit so the phone can link to them. Which means there need to be a
>>*lot* of them, as they are only above the horizon for a short time.
>>
> As I said above this is a technological limit. Basically this means
> that it's technology limited. You still need enough satellites to
> cover the whole planet but higher broadcast power and more sensitive
> receivers means you can use satellites in higher orbits, with more
> channel feed thru to support more phones. Higher power units (GURPS
> rechargeable power cells, for example) mean that small hand units can
> be very powerful.

Again, there's a limit on how many units you can have operating in a
given area, based on cell size and number of channels available. Power
comes into play here as well. 

The higher the satellite is, the bigger the "cell" and the more
channels both the satellite *and* the phone have to be able to choose
from just to be able to work.

The more power the phone has, the farther away it can be "seen" and
thus you get the possibility of it "using up" channels on multiple
satellites. 

You get the same problem with cell phones now. That's why they aren't
legal to use on planes in flight. Because they'd use up channels on
*every* cell in line of sight of the plane. Which could be *hundreds*
of cells if you are near a major urban area. 

Yes, there are also FAA regs about them because of potential
interference with electronics on the plane. But it's the FCC regs that
make them illegal *period* as oppsed to the "at the discretion of the
pilot" that applies to other consumer electronics. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 17:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun  9 16:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] a little help
Message-ID: <20020609.162104.-172023.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

 generalturokan@juno.com writes:
> 
> >What amount of Naval force could most likely be called upon from 
> Ijaakla to attack my unsurrendering fleet?
> 

Thank you one and all for your thoughtful inputs to my need for help.

The fleet survived without a shot fired, though the Igallia flight group
probably needs to change their undergarments :~)

Had I rolled a carrier or battleship, there would have been support craft
involved, a standoff, and due to the nature of the Igallia, they would
have fired the first shot.

Thanks Eris for your die roller, it rolled to my advantage :~)

Thanks again,

Turokan

..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 18:09:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Jun  9 17:09:33 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20020609190356.9F010279FB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20609.160509.0C7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 06/09/02 at 11:32 AM,  "Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> said:
>
> Actually, this is from Shadow, but I deleted the original thinking
> someone would have replied to this point...
>
>>>Nope. the technology *wasn't* known. To make transistors requires
>>>hyperpure silicon grown into perfect crystals.
>
> That's not quite right. It takes hyperpure silicon crystals to make
> the blanks onto which integrated circuits are printed.  The
> transistors themselves are "impurities" laid on those blanks, and were
> used as discrete units on circuit boards for well over a decade before
> the first chips were created.  

The discrete units were usually point contact units, rather than the
stuff produced via photolithography. Which was what the person I was
replying to seemed to think would be "easy" to do at 1941 tech levels.

> Actually, the transistor was "discovered" in an RCA lab back in the
> 1920's, but was deemed to be less cost effective than the vacuum tube
> at that time and so research and development was dropped. About twenty
> years later it was rediscovered by Robert Shockley, this time in the
> Bell Labs. At this time, the ability to produce them in volume and
> cost effectively existed, so the transistor began replacing vacuum
> tubes in all sorts of electronic equipment.   

Actually, as has been noted from time to time in various radio and
electronics magazines, the transistor wwas patented in the 1900s. A
double catwhisker crystal detector. 

It was discovered by accident, and since they had no idea *why* it
worked (and had it hooked up in a very much less than ideal
configuration) it was pretty much ignored. 

> Before long it became standard practice to mount the transistors on
> circuit boards with the wiring "printed" on them. When the volume of
> these boards with standard configurations reached some critical point
> the idea of integrating the entire board into a printed curcuit was
> born. These "integrated circuits" were printed in miniture form using
> photographic techniques on silicon blanks, platters of silicon sliced
> from large pure crystals, and then the blank is cut up into  "chips",
> each a miniture (but complete) integrated circuit board. This allowed
> the mass production of entire boards and greatly lowered price and
> power required while increasing speed. We're still in this phase with
> advances coming from shrinking the scale so that millions of
> transisters can be printed on the same sized chip that in the 70's
> could hold only a few hundred.

We are going to hit a limit fairly soon though. It's getting harder to
make the patterns smaller (due to wavelength issues with light) and we
are getting close to the point where quantum effects will start
affecting circuit behavior drasticaly. 

> Yes, to *exactly* reproduce these IC's you would need hyperpure
> silicon crystals...among other things...and lower TL's couldn't do it. 
> However, it *would* be possible to reproduce much larger breadboard
> versions of the same integrated circuits using transistors, wires, and
> other components (even vacuum tubes). So...in Traveller terms, a TL5
> society might be able to reverse engineer (or perhaps just use the
> wiring diagrams) to create devices from TL6 or TL7, however their
> reproductions would be much larger and heavier, draw much more power,
> be much more costly, run much more slowly, and be much more prone to
> break down...or so I would think.

Well, you can't just take a transistor design and derive a tube design
from it. Nor the other way around. 

Likewise, you do get into territory where a design using ICs is hard to
convert into one using discrete components. Especially since it may
well be the case that you'd be better off designing a completely *new*
cirucuit better suited to the "buliding blocks" you have. 

Consider that a high tech temperature controller for something may
consist of a sensor feeding into an analog to digital convertor,
feeding into a simple computer running a control program that drives a
digital to analog converter than controls some sort of mechanical or
electrical device that adjusts the fuel or some such.

Or you can do the same thing with a bimetallic strip and an adjustable
switch. Or with a thermocouple, a wheatstone bridge and a few other
components.

One thing that tends to get missed is that the change from tube to
transistor (and IC) happened at the same time (and facilitated in an
indirect manner) the change from analog to digital. 

There's a *lot* you can do with analog computers. And some of them are
pretty simple circuits. Not to mention the mechanical ones. 

I have an "unfair advantage" since my initial exposure to electronics
was a book on telephones, telegraphs and power systems from around
1910. <eg>

Different sets of tools have different "best" solutions. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 18:10:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Jun  9 17:10:24 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <F8t1o85BFrSLtiEaJLi00019e35@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20609.162256.0M9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>      Most Third World countries are doing just that.  They're completely 
> skipping over the wire period and jumping into the wireless age.  The 
> developed world's continued use of land lines is due more to industrial 
> inertia; we've sunk trillions into it and the infrastructure is already 
> there, so we might as well keep using it, then any actual benefits land 
> lines give us.
>      Take Mexico for an example.  I was involved with a telecom project down 
> there in the early 90s.  Phone service in Mexico was excreable.  Common 
> waiting periods to have service run to a house was measured in YEARS.  In 
> Mexico City, the single phone company parked all of its equipment in a 
> SINGLE lot, this for a metropolitan area comparable to Tokyo.  Some "work" 
> crews couldn't clear the lot and the attendent traffic jam until after 
> lunch.
>      Then cell phones arrived.
>      Instead of attmepting to wire that country, a task that took over a 
> century in the US, from the initial telegraph strands in the 1840s to the 
> Rural Electrification Project in the 1930's, and a task still goes on today, 
> Mexico was able to leapfrog beyond that type of comm system.
>      Microwave links between cell phone towers may be "messy" when viewed in 
> a certain way, but when you look at the alternative, they're positively 
> "neat".  Wiring Mexico to First, or even Second, World standards would have 
> taken decades and trillions.  Building transmission and relay towers 
> produced the same result in much less time and for far less money.
>      The phones used in this system are essentially disposible.  The towers 
> are maintained by outside tech reps, very few Mexicans actually perform the 
> work.  Now imagine the maintenance tasks involved in a land line system 
> comparable to the one in the USA.  Telephone and utility poles are so common 
> that we no longer "see" them.  Walk around your neighborhood and count them 
> one day.  Then do the math, how many are in your county?  City?  State?  All 
> nearly pressure treated wood.  Look at the fittings, the cabling between 
> them, the equipment attached to them, the substations.  The list is mind 
> boggling.  How quickly could such a system be built from scratch?  How much 
> would that cost?
>      Now look at cell phones and microwave towers.  We put one up every 20 
> km or so.  Bolted steel construction, small shack of equipment below, 
> several dishes above.  The labor and costs are miniscule when compared to 
> our current land line infrastructure.

And that's the thing. At one tower per 20 km, you have cells about
20-40 km across. And each cell can only support a few hundred phones
(if that). 

Luckily, it'll be a long time before that's a problem. 

In urban areas it gets messier. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 18:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Sun Jun  9 17:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20609.151541.4F6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206100227570.9736-100000@svati>

On Sun, 9 Jun 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>The odds are rather large that nobody on the ship knows much more than
>can be found in a good library, which will be *woefully* inadequate.
>It'll take *years* of work to get it right.

I believe this is the key factor to the differnce in tech levels in
the Imperium. The info might be avaibel on each and every world in
the Imperium, but the level of knowledge within a population on a
world severly limits what the world kan produce and maintain.

There is many reasons wy a world wouldn't be able to "read" up
on the evertyhing that is needed to be on the TL15 level, most of
them social. The available info means however that the road from a
lower tech level to TL15 would be much faster than it would take to do
everything through research and development.

Tommy


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 18:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Jun  9 17:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Hapsburgs
Message-ID: <F52uH3Fy2Qb9PHKTguQ0001a44f@hotmail.com>

From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>

     "The worst example of this kind of thing I ever encountered, however, 
didn't involve written translation of a famous person's name."


Mr. Ramen,

     I just experienced a mind-shattering series of flashbacks involving 
dubbed television shows...  Bonanza in Korean...  Three's Company in 
Taiwanese...  The Love Boat, complete with dubbed laugh track, in Turkish... 
  Gilligan's Island in FRENCH...  oooooggggg...
     My pills... my pills... where are my pills...


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. "Petit Mal" Whipsnade

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 19:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Jun  9 18:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEECBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>
>     Most Third World countries are doing just that.  They're completely
>skipping over the wire period and jumping into the wireless age.  The
>developed world's continued use of land lines is due more to industrial
>inertia; we've sunk trillions into it and the infrastructure is already
>there, so we might as well keep using it, then any actual benefits land
>lines give us.
>     Take Mexico for an example.  I was involved with a telecom project
down
>there in the early 90s.  Phone service in Mexico was excreable.  Common

Latvia, as I recall, did the same thing some 10 years ago.  They were going
to wire the major cities and set up cell phone stuff in the rural areas, but
decided to do exactly the opposite.  It was easier to set up cell phone
towers in the cities than to try to fix and expand decades of Soviet-era
wiring.

It proved easy to string phone lines across the relatively small
countryside; I'm not sure whether it was cheaper than cell phone towers, but
that's what they did.

Maybe it was Estonia or Lithuania, but I think it was Latvia.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 19:09:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Jun  9 18:09:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Santanocheev
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGECBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>Norris' problem was that Santanocheev had the rold _Norris_ wanted. Santy
>was Sector admiral and had command of all Imperial forces in the sector.

I agree.  I think that a case can be made that Norris, a former Imperial
Naval Intelligence officer himself, set Santanocheev up for the purpose of
becoming the hero of the Fifth Frontier War and obvious candidate for
Subsector Duke -- and eventually Archduke of Deneb.

Recall that Santanocheev was head of INI in the Marches until he became
sector admiral; Norris and Santanocheev probably worked together before
Norris became duke in 1095 or so.  Did Norris and his INI cronies misdirect
Santanocheev about the likelihood of a Zhodani invasion?  How long before
the war did Norris request the warrant?

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 19:31:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Jun  9 18:31:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with space/Ping!
Message-ID: <3D0400AA.33DC2107@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage of posts concerning Moving Mars from Greg Bear>
>>> As I understand it, everything in the universe is supposed to have >>>its own mathematical locating formula, a zip code if you will. >>>Tweakers simply move a ship, a rock, or a planet, from one zip code >>>to another. Now, if someone knows how to do the engineering for >>>this, I got a sweet deal for you...
>>
>> Change of Address forms, located at your local post office. <g>
>>
>> But yes, the engineering was missing part for me.  It had something >>to do with the Thinkers (AIs) thinking 'deep enough' or something and >>just "tweaking" *something*.  That something eluded me.

Leonard Erikson writes:
>"All" you need to do is be able to do the equivalent of edit a field >in a database. Finding the database and being able to edit it are the >real problems.
>
>At a much "coarser" level, a number of SF stories (and some >speculation by real physicists) has ideas such as being able >"seperate" things like momentum from an object. This lets you do neat >things too. 

Of course, there is also the fun possibility that its all part of the
MATRIX, and that the Martians are really coppertops...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 20:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Jun  9 19:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20609.142945.0D0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEJJEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> I'll use small arms as an example, starting with percussion ignition.
The
>> flintlock mechanism was not reliable, was slow and difficult to produce
and
>> was easily effected by the weather.  The percussion cap solved all these
>> problems without any new technology, just by applying existent technology
in
>> a new way.
>
>Except that percussion caps *were* new technology. They appeared *very*
>soon after fulminate of mercury was discovered. I don't have the dates
>at hand, but I think it's only 50 years or less.
>
>The flintlock may not have been that great, but compare it to its
>predecessors. the wheel lock, and the matchlock. It *was* superior to
>*those*.
>
>> The same is true of the minie ball, which made muzzle loading rifles
>> practical as general issue military weapons.
>
>That is a better example of your point.
>
>> The cartridge case didn't require any new technology, just a new
application
>> of existing technology.  Even the machinegun was merely an application of
a
>> new idea to existing technology.
>
>Actually it did. I don't think that mass produced cartridge cases were
>*possible* much before when they entered use. They require special
>equipment that didn't exist much before the mid-1800s.
>
>> The firearms manufacturing business is actually a very interesting
example
>> to look at, as most of our modern manufacturing techniques came out of
the
>> gun industry.
>
>Right they techniques were invented and then used by the gun industry.
>That's different from your claim of "all it took was a new way of
>looking at things".
>
>The technology (fulminate of mercury, drawn brass cases, etc) had to be
>invented *then* it could be applied.

Exactly, and the invent part has already been done and all those lower TL
planets know it. There isn't any new technology, except at TL F. Everything
else has already been invented. They may not be able to make something
because they don't have the tools or the tools to make the tools, but it
won't be because they don't know how to make it.

They're best import may be books and ebooks (along with readers.) They don't
have to invent any of this. They already know how to do it. As in the
present societies that refuse to educate their young in science and
technology will fail to advance. Which may say more about why low TL worlds
still exist than anything.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 21:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark)
Date: Sun Jun  9 20:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <F8t1o85BFrSLtiEaJLi00019e35@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c2102b$25d7e820$2f7de40c@loki>

In line with Larsen's commentary may I add this?

A town only a few hours drive from the wired and wireless hub of Seattle
Washington, my home, just got phone lines last year.

Additional--unconfirmed--I heard the story of a town that ran fiber to
every house in the town only to have the bundles lie, unconnected,
behind the local Telco. Seems it hadn't the capability to serve the
local fiber.

-peace-
The views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you
expect?
<n2sami@attbi.com>
<http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/> 




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 21:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Jun  9 20:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Hapsburgs
Message-ID: <3D041746.32DB0713@mail.cswnet.com>

Larsen Whipsnade, Sultan of Seizure, writes:
>I just experienced a mind-shattering series of flashbacks involving 
>dubbed television shows...  Bonanza in Korean...  Three's Company in 
>Taiwanese...  The Love Boat, complete with dubbed laugh track, in
>Turkish... 
>  Gilligan's Island in FRENCH...  oooooggggg...
>     My pills... my pills... where are my pills...

How about old Star Trek in German, Tenchi Muyo in Spanish...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
"Please pass the Dialantin"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 21:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Jun  9 20:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Santanocheev
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206100026020.29261-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEJKEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>>>My impression was that Santanochev's main crime, in addition to
>>>>seemingly want to 'take over' Norris's role,
>
>Norris' problem was that Santanocheev had the rold _Norris_ wanted. Santy
>was Sector admiral and had command of all Imperial forces in the sector.
>(I use that as evidence for my cliam that Norris is 'only' a subsector
>duke and not the sector duke; if he had been the sector duke, he would
>have had the authority to replace Santy. Since he obviously didn't, he
>can't have been.)
>
I suggest that even the sector duke doesn't have control over the Imperial
Navy fleet, but only the local colonial forces. In this event Norris would
only control the inferior colonial fleet and would not be able to go against
Santanochev with risking the colonial fleets and the IN fleet at a time when
both were needed to fight the Joes.

>>Also, I've always suspected that's Dulinor's "illness" during the 5FW was
>>perhaps him recovering from an assassination (poisioning?) attempt.
>
>I'm assuming you mean Norris' illness. That was a sham on Norris' part.
>Some time before the 5FW he had sent a request to the Emperor asking for
>authority to lead the Imperial forces in the Marches. The Imperial Warrant
>granting him his wish had been on a cruiser that went down on Algine, an
>interdicted world. Norris had some very vague evidence suggesting
>that his warrant might be abourd that cruiser. His problem was that
>evidently subsector dukes do not have the authority to authorize
>exceptions to interdicts even in their own duchies (strangely enough), so
>he pretended to be sick and led a secret expedition down on the surface of
>Algine to find his warrant. When he returned he removed Santanocheev and
>took over the conduct of the war. (All this is spelled out in _Spinward
>Marches Campaign_)
>
I suspect that the Santanochev might have known about the warrant and
perhaps even **caused** the Warrant to be lost and then used IN forces
specifically loyal to him to try to prevent Norris from obtaining it. Such
units would not allow Norris access to Algine, even though he might have had
a technical right to visit Algine.

>>I don't think Santanocheev would try a direct coup, but if Dulinor just
>>*happened* to die, well then *of course* it would be only natural for him
>>to take over.  All in the best interests of the Imperium, you understand.
>
>Santy didn't have to stage anything. He had greater authority than Norris.
>
But only if the Warrant did not get to Norris's hand.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 21:12:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sun Jun  9 20:12:47 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <200206090428.AAA04237@shell.cinternet.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCELMCIAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> 
> Finally I adjust the cost of an item based on its tech difference from
> the local.  I usually modify the cost by:
> 
>     cost increase = 100% * (production TL - local TL) 
> 
> Thus a TL 10 item on a TL 8 world will cost 200% *more* than it would
> on a TL 10 world.
> 
>

So if I buy an FGMP15 on a Tech Level 15 world, do I get it for free? 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 21:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Jun  9 20:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEECBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020609231307.0250f598@192.168.0.1>

At 05:56 PM 6/9/2002 -0700, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
[snip]
>Latvia, as I recall, did the same thing some 10 years ago.  They were going
>to wire the major cities and set up cell phone stuff in the rural areas, but
>decided to do exactly the opposite.  It was easier to set up cell phone
>towers in the cities than to try to fix and expand decades of Soviet-era
>wiring.
>It proved easy to string phone lines across the relatively small
>countryside; I'm not sure whether it was cheaper than cell phone towers, but
>that's what they did.

If they had the wiring on hand, it was probably cheaper.
Local tech and thus cheaper to support as well.
Latvia isn't *that* big either, with an established road system.
So it's easy to get repair trucks to patrol the lines and fix breaks.
Now...once you get the wire to the rural town's phone center, you can stick 
a cell tower there, rather than run wire every 50+ year old house with new 
wiring.



----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Managing sysadmins is like leading a neighborhood gang
of neurotic pumas on jet-powered hoverbikes with nasty
smack habits and opposable thumbs. -- www.monkeybagel.com
----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 21:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Jun  9 20:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <F8t1o85BFrSLtiEaJLi00019e35@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9296AA0.5E171%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/9/02 10:46 AM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:

> Now look at cell phones and microwave towers.  We put one up every 20
> km or so.  Bolted steel construction, small shack of equipment below,
> several dishes above.  The labor and costs are miniscule when compared to
> our current land line infrastructure.

Of course no one has mention the limitations of cellular technology.  For
example, the is a very finite limit on the number of phones in a given cell
with the assigned bandwidth.  With TDMA systems like GSM, it's something
like 16 simultaneous connections.  Even with advanced systems using CMDA,
you are limited to 64 theoretical connections.  And that's with current 8k
and 13k vocoders. There's a demand for even more bandwidth.  The spectrum is
limited.  Who's going to give it up?

The wireless network has initial advantages of cost to deploy, but it's not
an end solution.  Watch what happens as the system becomes saturated.  The
US and other countries that have large amounts of hardwired bandwidth will
still have a great advantage in terms of communications capacity.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 21:34:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun  9 20:34:11 2002
Subject: [TML] "Final Conflict" and the ensuing technology discussion
Message-ID: <116.126ff7e1.2a357703@aol.com>

<sigh.>

It's been a fascinating look at why a 20-year-old movie about *time travel* 
is worse than it looks, but I'd rather talk about Traveller again, please...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 21:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Jun  9 20:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20609.142743.7f0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B9296DAB.5E173%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/9/02 3:27 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> 66 according to Motorola's Iridium project
> 
> Depends on a combo of items like orbital altitude, phone power, and
> phone antenna size (expressed in terms of fractional wavelengths).
> 
> That's why other similar proposals have different numbers of
> satellites. 
> 

Well, the consortium that Qualcomm was involved in utilized a different
number of satellites mainly because they planned to not cover the entire
globe, but yes, you are correct.  Beside Iridium and Globalnet, I know of no
other plan to provide worldwide phone service by satellite.  Thus, in real
terms we are only talking about two serious proposals.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 21:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sun Jun  9 20:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Roleplaying the Type S benefit
In-Reply-To: <3D010978.F988D3B8@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHKELNCIAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> Paperwork involved[?]:
> Ships registry ID?
> Ships log
> Tech orders/Maintenance logs [for determining date of last maintenance,
> among other things].
> The Scout service equivalent to the DD214, showing that said scout is
> mustering out.
> other -?
> 
I really don't know too many players who would want to role play through
all that paper work...Unless they rolled up a Bureaucrat or a Lawyer.
I usually leave that sort of paper mess to specific Byzantine worlds
the players may need to go to. Then I make the bureaucracy a part of the
adventure, either to delay the characters, cause them to go to a location
I have planned, or just to give them a hard time, then give them rich
incentives to entice them to go back. I make the bureaucracy part of the
flavor of that particular world.

You mustered out, here's you ship, (make lemon roll), now off to adventure!

-SRS-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 21:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Jun  9 20:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20609.142945.0D0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B9296FBF.5E177%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/9/02 3:29 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

> 
> Except that percussion caps *were* new technology. They appeared *very*
> soon after fulminate of mercury was discovered. I don't have the dates
> at hand, but I think it's only 50 years or less.

But percussion caps do not require mercury fulminate.  A perfectly
serviceable cap can be made from ffffg powder, a copper cup and paper.  I've
personally made percussion caps from a beer can and paper caps used by cap
guns (the type for kiddies).

One of the things that has always hampered the firearms industry is it's
conservatism.  Some of the most profound leaps in firearms technology were
made by 'ousiders'.
> 
> Actually it did. I don't think that mass produced cartridge cases were
> *possible* much before when they entered use. They require special
> equipment that didn't exist much before the mid-1800s.

But the drawing of brass wasn't invented by the cartridge industry.  It was
a well understood process at least a hundred years before brass cartridges
were in common use.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 21:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Jun  9 20:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20609.162256.0M9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B92971D7.5E17D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/9/02 5:22 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> Now look at cell phones and microwave towers.  We put one up every 20
>> km or so.  Bolted steel construction, small shack of equipment below,
>> several dishes above.  The labor and costs are miniscule when compared to
>> our current land line infrastructure.
> 
> And that's the thing. At one tower per 20 km, you have cells about
> 20-40 km across. And each cell can only support a few hundred phones
> (if that). 
> 
> Luckily, it'll be a long time before that's a problem.

With the current bandwidth allocation, one TDMA cell supports 16 phones.  If
you sectorize your antenna, you can get triple that.  If you adopt CDMA, you
get a theoretical 64 phones per cell (IIRC, Qualcomm says it's 56 in
practice.)  Again, if you sectorize your antenna, you can triple this.

If you are using CDMA, you can use an 'offset' to allow multiple cells to
service the same geographical area to increase capacity.  But most of the
world uses GSM as the standard, a TDMA system.  Early adoption and
standardization does not always result in the best system.

And it should be noted that this is with 8k and 13k vocoders in the phone.
There is increasing pressure to increase cell phone bandwidth for additional
services.

The problem is likely surface much sooner than anyone (outside the telecom
field) suspects.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 22:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Jun  9 21:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEJLEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <B929729E.5E17E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/9/02 8:19 PM, Terry Carlino at carlino@cox.net wrote:

>> I saw something about this on some TV show, or other. It was supposed
>> to be able to fire shells over a wall, exploding them to shower the
>> enemy hiding there with fragments, or through a window exploding
>> inside the building. IIRC, this was using "smart bullets"...that could
>> be ?automatically? programmed by the weapons onboard computer.  I
>> remember thinking to myself that the ability to have a bullet turn a
>> corner and seek out individual targets must be right down the road.
>> <g>
>> 
> That would be the OICW. Alliant Technosystems which uses a GDR 99 for H & K
> chambered for NATO coupled with a 20 mm cannon, capable of firing "smart"
> rounds which can indeed be automatically programmed to explode after so many
> seconds flight. This allows them to be shot over walls or down hallways and
> explode just as they pass an obstruction and so hit targets behind cover.
> See:
> 

Actually, he was referring to the OCSW, the companion to the OICW, but using
a 25mm cartridge and functioning as a dedicated support weapon (i.e Crew
Served).
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 22:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Jun  9 21:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] a little help
In-Reply-To: <20020609.162104.-172023.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020610040314.51274279A7@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/09/02 at 04:21 PM,  generalturokan@juno.com said:

>Thank you one and all for your thoughtful inputs to my need for help.

>The fleet survived without a shot fired, though the Igallia flight
>group probably needs to change their undergarments :~)

>Had I rolled a carrier or battleship, there would have been support
>craft involved, a standoff, and due to the nature of the Igallia,
>they would have fired the first shot.

>Thanks Eris for your die roller, it rolled to my advantage :~)

You're welcome, General!  I planned it that way. ;->

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 23:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Jun  9 22:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
Message-ID: <200206100519.WAA08578@molly.iii.com>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:

>Well, one point that gets overlooked regarding using grav vehicles to
>reach orboit is that there's *big* difference between reaching orbital
>(or higher) altitude and achieving orbit.

Well, not for traveller gravetics.  Hitting 8 km/sec in vacuum is not hard 
for a grav raft in any version of traveller.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun  9 23:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun  9 22:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
Message-ID: <20020609.224458.-172023.4.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hi all,

I know a lot of discussion about jump drives have been discussed, but I
have a strange question.

To begin:
A fleet has entered jump space staggered in groups ie: scouts, then
frigates, then etc, all perhaps minutes apart for each group.

The situation:
A frigate mis-jumps and rolls destroyed.

Question:
Could the destroyed frigate cause the remaining fleet ships behind the
frigate to be forced out of jump space to normal space?
Consequently running into a debris field.
Or, would only the destroyed frigate be effected?

Turokan

..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 00:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Sun Jun  9 23:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEJCEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10206100854450.4306-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Sun, 9 Jun 2002, Terry Carlino wrote:
> >Don't forget that those phones are useless unless somone puts in the
> >hundred or more satellites required to support them. And a facility to
> >*maintain* said satellites.
> That number of satellites is based on low Earth orbit. If placed in a higher
> orbit less satellites would be required.

Still, the higher the satellites, the bigger the antenna on the 
mobile phone must be.

The smallest Iridium phones I have seen were the size of 1990 phone, that
is, not very small. Portable, but not something to put into jeans pockets.
(I carry my Nokia 5510 in my jeans pocket, and it is not a small phone by
any means, but Iridium phones are much bigger.)

The size could be smaller, if the antenna could be directional. This
creates a whole lot of new problems, of course...

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 00:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Jun  9 23:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10206100854450.4306-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <B9298F32.5E1AB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/9/02 10:59 PM, Mikko V. I. Parviainen at mvparvia@cc.hut.fi wrote:

> 
> The smallest Iridium phones I have seen were the size of 1990 phone, that
> is, not very small. Portable, but not something to put into jeans pockets.
> (I carry my Nokia 5510 in my jeans pocket, and it is not a small phone by
> any means, but Iridium phones are much bigger.)
> 
> The size could be smaller, if the antenna could be directional. This
> creates a whole lot of new problems, of course...

Also, the Iridium phones are Tri-mode. And would probably get smaller.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 00:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Jun  9 23:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
Message-ID: <F121Q6mBySsxVY60mJW0001a37a@hotmail.com>

From: generalturokan@juno.com

     "I know a lot of discussion about jump drives have been discussed, but 
I have a strange question."


General,

     Ah!  Strange is my middle name!

     "To begin: A fleet has entered jump space staggered in groups ie: 
scouts, then frigates, then etc, all perhaps minutes apart for each group."

     "The situation: A frigate mis-jumps and rolls destroyed."

     "Question: Could the destroyed frigate cause the remaining fleet ships 
behind the frigate to be forced out of jump space to normal space?
Consequently running into a debris field.  Or, would only the destroyed 
frigate be effected?"

     My answer will depend on where the frigate came apart; was it in jump 
space or normal space?
     If in jump space, there's no problem.  Everyone else jumps normally and 
the frigate, or pieces of it, suffer an unknown fate in jump space.
     If it was in normal space, things get very weird.
     I'm sure everyone remembers the lengthy jump limit and jump masking 
debates last year.  My answer will depend on one, of very, very, VERY many, 
interpretations about jump limits and jump masking.
     Mr. Miller's many articles on jump space and his posts to other boards 
on this very topic say that any object larger than the vessel jumping will 
exert a jump limit on said vessel.  Thus, a Empress Marava within 100D of a 
Sulieman will prevent the Sulieman from entering jump space safely.  A 
Gazelle will do the same to an Empress Marava and a Happy Fun Ball will do 
it to a Gazelle and so on.
     Strict jump masking, as repeatedly implied in CT and explicitly stated 
in GT, states that any object exerting a jump limit boundary (which is any 
object larger than the vessel in jump, see above) will effect a vessel's 
jump path.  Mr. Miller explicitly states that there is a direct mapping 
connection between jump space and normal space in this situation.
     So, IF the frigate suffers a misjump in normal space and IF the 
frigate, or large pieces of it, remain along other vessels' jump paths, 
those vessels will suffer the effects of jump masking.
     GT states that a vessel contacting a jump limit boundary will 
"precipitate" out of jump at said boundary.  When or where that occurs is up 
to you.  There are several theories regarding this and I would direct any 
interested parties to the TML archives.
     Jump masking has quickly joined near-c rocks, piracy in the OTU, 
Heinlen's government in Starship Troopers, and a few other topics as the 
Gordion Knot of the TML.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 00:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Hopper)
Date: Sun Jun  9 23:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
In-Reply-To: <F121Q6mBySsxVY60mJW0001a37a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020610062559.13017.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com>

 A 
> Gazelle will do the same to an Empress Marava and a
> Happy Fun Ball will do 
> it to a Gazelle and so on.
>     

Pardon my ignorance Mr. Whipsnade, but what exactly is
a "Happy Fun Ball" in Traveller? Inspite of the cute
name (which has been used to describe Beholders in D&D
games I've played), I have no idea what it is. Please
tell me.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 01:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Jun 10 00:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
Message-ID: <F2728Wx1jgTGAP2tb3O0000408f@hotmail.com>

From: Jeff Hopper <jeff37923@yahoo.com>

     "Pardon my ignorance Mr. Whipsnade, but what exactly is a "Happy Fun 
Ball" in Traveller?"


Mr. Hopper,

     I could be very wrong, but I thought it referred to the 800 dT Merc 
Cruiser.  I was trying to waddle up the displacement ladder of classic OTU 
ships as part of my explanation.
     Oh, Mr. Hopper, no one is ignorant if they know how to ask questions!  
;)


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 01:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Jun 10 00:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML Timewarp
In-Reply-To: <085501c20ff6$af8cb1c0$b923f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206100023200.7612-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sun, 9 Jun 2002, Fred Ramen wrote:

> Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> opined:
> 
> <<Now of course, we need to figure out who would be in the cast of the TML
> Horror Picture Show..  Dibs on Riff-Raff!  I'd like to nominate Kiri as my
> Magenta.>>

You mean your wife Kiri, right?  because I'm Janet!  I was in the cast I
was in as a teenager, and I can do the voice perfectly!

> Ooh! Ooh! I dib Columbia! Just got my hair cut shorter, too!
> 
> I think I could help Larsen keep the freaked-out nature needed for the
> Narrator...
> 
> Fred "But I'd double Janet in a pinch" Ramen

LOL!!!

BTW, Doug, Raven (that pretty tranniegrrl that was running around at
Baycon) thought that *I* was your wife, lol!

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 01:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 10 00:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <20020609224005.72A8027A2E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17HJvP-0005b6-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> wrote:

> My stance, based on all real-world 'low tech' countries, is that TL
> measures per capita GWP, with an additional observation that worlds
> will usually be unable to manufacture goods above their TL, unless
> someone's moved a factory there for cheap labor.  However, many worlds
> can't or won't manufacture goods _at_ their TL, either because they
> just don't have the industrial base, or because there's really no
> point (for an extreme example: a TL 7 world won't have a space
> shuttle.  It'll import a grav raft).

I *like* this idea a great deal, and it has always been the way I 
have seen the TU.
 
> This has realism benefits (varying wealth is much more likely to occur
> than actual huge variation in technical knowledge), but has the
> problem that it becomes fairly difficult to figure out what equipment
> will actually exist on any given world.

It's honestly not *that* difficult - assume most things are at the 
listed tech level (ie the tech the that world could normally create, 
except for light weight consumer goods (like satphones and digital 
watches), that will be ubiquitous among the rich and will trickle 
down to some extent to the middle class, depending upon how 
prosperous the world it.  Also, in all cases(baring laws against high 
quality medicine), medicine will be lots more advanced on every 
Imperial world, since even the TL 5 world will have doctors trained 
with hard copies of advanced anatomy texts, and information on 
diseases and their treatment that is far more advanced than we had 
in 1930 (as well as access to a limited number of advanced drugs).

I'm guessing that combustion engines will be common in TL 5 
societies, because fusion is *very* expensive and fuel cells require 
off world service.  That doesn't mean there won't any be 
installations and vehicles powered by fusion or fuel cells, merely 
that only a few essential ones will be and the rest will use locally 
made engines and power generation techniques.  

Also, tech will be highly income graded in the Imperium in general - 
the richer the person the higher tech they have access too.  Even 
on a TL 15 world, the really poor people may still only have TL 11 
handcomps.  The difference is that on TL 15 world, most citizens 
can afford TL 15 items and the world is rich enough for the basic 
infrastructure is TL 15.    

The reality of tech levels will be a complex mixture, but in practice 
TL 5 worlds will have most people driving ground cars and watching 
movies, and TL B worlds will have most people riding in air rafts 
and watching holovids.  Thankfully TL 4- worlds are off limits for 
official contact, so at least we don't need to worry about them.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 01:50:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 10 00:50:18 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20020609224005.72A8027A2E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17HJvT-0005b6-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

> Well, one point that gets overlooked regarding using grav vehicles to
> reach orboit is that there's *big* difference between reaching orbital
> (or higher) altitude and achieving orbit.
> 
> That grav vehicle not only has to get up to the right altitude, it has
> to be moving at 8 km/sec in the right direction (assuming an earthlike
> planet). 

True but any good grav vehicles can manage that, it just might take 
a few hours.
 
> But my basic idea was that it takes more than *just* the phones. You'd
> need a number of Dtons of cargo space for the satellites, spare parts,
> etc. 

Very true.
 
> I expect that there'd be several "levels" of satellite installations
> that planets get. 
> 
> 1. minimal
> 
> Geosynch comsats with weather monitoring. And possibly a statite or a
> solar powered CG supported unit over each pole. This gives full
> coverage for weather, and for vehicle and "larger" (suitcase sized or
> bigger) comm units.
> 
> May include direct broadcast video capability for
> propoganda/education/news.

I'm guessing that this sort of setup will be found in *every* world, 
regardless of TL the belongs to the Imperium, the Solomani 
Confederation, or any of the other large states, the benefits for the 
world's leaders are *far* too great and the cost would be minimal.
 
> Villages would have a receiver for weather, one or more displays for
> the news/etc and a communal vidphone terminal. 
> 
> Much like the programs in India and other places with such receivers
> in villages.

Yep, it's cheap, easy it helps the government, and also the people. 
I'm betting you find these setups everywhere.  So, PC's will even be 
able to watch the local weather channel on TL 5 worlds. 

> Easy to set up, moderate profit both from selling the receivers and
> from charges for phone and vid services. Most maintenance is in
> keeping the ground and vehicle units working. Space-based compoents
> can be larger and easy to work on, or even actual stations. 
> 
> 2. expanded
> 
> Low altitude constellation of phone satellites added to minimal setup,
> along with search and rescue beacon locating capacity. Handheld phone
> now possible, as well as pocket sized ditress beacons. 
> 
> Survey/surveillance satellites may also be added (possibly in the same
> satellites, anybody know if the altitudes used by the two types are
> compatible? 
> 
> GPS (at lower resoultion than on earth) may be added as well. Again,
> anybody know if the numbers and altitudes of the GPS satellites are
> compatible with phone service or survey/surveillance? If it is, then
> you can get as good a resolution as on earth, if not better.

I'm guessing that full GPS is also *very* common on low-tech 
worlds, because of the obvious traffic control, military and social 
control applications.  Also, by TL 10, I'm guessing the most basic 
GPS receiver is the size of a a double pack of chewing gum, and 
costs maybe 25 Cr.  Add in shipping and the markup all low-tech 
buyers are likely to get and they are still probably no more than 
100 CR.  All ships, air planes, swat teams, rescue workers, 
forward observers, and similar personnel will likely have them even 
on TL 5 worlds. 

I like the idea of TL 5 steamships with satphones and GPS.  Then 
again, there are currently small cargo ships sailing (with sails) 
regular runs between East Africa and India, which have GPS 
receivers and radios.  I'm fairly certain that many low tech worlds 
look lots like that ship.    

I'm guessing the only low-tech worlds w/o good GPS systems are 
balkanized worlds with ongoing wars, where each side shoots 
down the other's satellites.

OTOH, satphones may be somewhat rarer, since authoritarian low-
tech governments won't necessarily want their populace able to 
talk so easily.  It's a simple matter to control large vehicle and 
room-mounted comm units, but pocket-sized ones are ideal tools 
for rebels and dissidents.  However, on low-tech worlds w/o 
repressive or paranoid governments, I'm betting that most members 
of the upper class have sat phones (but almost no one else would 
have them).
 
> 3. "Full"
> 
> Full setup, geosync, sat phone, weather, survey, etc *and* extra
> satellites/stations at other locations to provide sensor coverage of
> the 100 diameter limit and beyond, as well as space traffic control
> functions.

OTOH, I'm guessing this level of sophistication is pretty much the 
mark of a world with a local TL of 9 or more.  

> There could be more "levels" but I think this is a good enough
> starting place.

Agreed, I like these levels a lot.

Once again, a discussion of Traveller tech levels and what sorts of 
things will almost certainly be found on low tech worlds (like 
satphones for the rich) needs to be in some new Traveller 
supplement or other.  I wonder if Loren would be interested in such 
a piece?

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 02:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon Jun 10 01:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
References: <F34mhxUPD453SlMiVZ700019d69@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001801c21055$5b2f8260$ac00a8c0@imogen>

Mr Whipsnade wrote:
<snip>

My undestanding of TL  is  that  represents  local  manufacturing
ability.  If you use Grand Census or World Builders Handbook this
definition is further refined as "High Common": the  upper  limit
of a broad range or areas.  In most areas technology will be  the
same or slightly lower (for example a desert world might be a bit
backwards when it comes to  water  transport  technology).  There
may be one or two "novelty" items that are actually  higher  than
the TL rating.

Next, remember that starports have a minimum TL rating  depending
on their class.  (I don't have the reference to hand  just  now.)
The starport's actual TL will be the higher of  this  minimum  or
the world's TL.  That means that if the world's TL is  below  the
starport class  minimum  then  tools  and  spare  parts  must  be
imported.

Also remember that the  "Ni"  trade  code  means  "Non-industrial
worlds are forced to import much of  their  finished  goods"  (CT
Book 3 p16).

To summarise: this means that a "Ni" world  may  have  a  lot  of
higher tech imported items around (subject to  balance  of  trade
issues), starports on low TL worlds will have imported items, and
there may be the odd item +1 TL prototype item around too.

On the issue of all those pre-industrial worlds: you can  exclude
all the "Ni" worlds from the problem (since they import  much  of
their stuff).

For those that remain you mentioned "Neo-Luddites,  57th  century
Amish, philosophical technophobes, "protected" cultures,  or  any
other such groups" as the only reasons.  I can add a few more  to
your list:

- there can be occasional errors in the IISS records  (IIRC  this
  is canon) so the world in question might have a higher TL.

- if the world is newly colonised it might still be  building  up
  its industrial infrastructure.[1]

- the world in question might have suffered a recent major war or
  other significant upset that has *temporarily*  degraded  local
  manufacturing capability.[1]

Look at Forboldn as an example.  That has 3 million  inhabitants,
is TL 4, rated Ni, and from canon sources we know is the location
of a major ongoing colonisation effort ... that all fits  nicely:
Its a colony world that can locally produce  only  TL4  items  so
far, so it imports most of what it  needs  while  it  is  getting
established.

Meanwhile Knorbes has 80 million and is TL 2.  That's  a  lot  of
people ... they've obveously been there awhile.  There is no sign
of a global war (the atmosphere  isn't  tainted).  And  both  the
class E starport and the lack of an Ni code suggest there's not a
big interest in interstellar trade.  Okay, perhaps this really is
one of those 57th century Amish worlds!  But atleast with the  Ni
code consideration there's only half the number  of  worlds  that
need this solution now.



[1] = Remember that worlds are not static.

Regards PLST



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 02:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon Jun 10 01:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: traveller software
References: <JIBACEFDBCHLKDAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <00b001c2105a$b9ba71a0$ac00a8c0@imogen>

On the TML you wrote:
> Sorry, I wasn't payng attention.
> what software is it that I'm lookign at?:
>
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol/traveller/software/screenshot.html
>
> It looks really good
>
> I've been thinking about upgrading my version of H&E for a while.
> Can I port information I have from that into this?

This is new software and I was asking for beta testers.  There is
limited porting from H&E at the moment: HES files,  but  not  DTA
files (yet).  Below is a generic letter sent  to  all  those  who
expressed an interest which has more info.  Should  you  wish  to
become a beta tester ...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Hi all,

Thanks for all the responses, I've decided to reply via a  common
email as some of you have similar questions.



First, let me start by saying that my  vision  for  the  Universe
program was too big to be handled  in  one  go.  So  I  broke  it
up into 3 releases:

Release 1.0 is basically  a  Windows  clone  of  Jim  Vassilakos'
"Galactic".  Since Galactic ran in DOS my program will  never  be
that fast, so  I've  tried  to  compensate  with  lots  of  extra
features: in addition to a GUI interface it has improved graphics
on the maps and uses a proper database (rather than  an  ordinary
file) to store it's data in.  This last  aspect  means  that  all
data is 'clean' of  unknown/invalid  codes  or  corrupted  lines.
(Some of the datafiles floating around will crash  H&E.)  It  can
also run in either 'player' or 'referee' mode ... the referee can
add notes the player can't see, as well  as  has  access  to  the
maintenance functions.

If all goes well the next stage (release 2.0) is  to  add  system
generation functions.  This will make it a replacement for H&E as
well as  Galactic.  Release  3.0  will  have  dynamic  NPCs:  for
example, when the players revisit a world they  could  find  that
the barman they met before is now married, the  port  warden  has
been arrested for fraud, the port cargo moving equipment has been
upgraded, but many of the port landing lights are inoperative!



Second, this program is written in a combination of Visual  Basic
and SQL in an Interbase database.  The VB part is only  available
on Windows unless someone wants to work  on  a  port  to  another
platform, but InterBase runs on a number of platforms ... so  the
database portion atleast should be usable  on  Linux  (etc).  And
since the loaded data is cleaned of some basic  errors  just  the
database alone should have some value.  (If you don't  know  what
Interbase is just think of it as super MS-Access).



Now to business:

Apart from a display setting mimimum of 800x600  I  don't  really
know what the minimum spec is.  I have run it on a 233MHz  laptop
and it did work, but it was a bit like  trying  to  suck  treacle
through a straw (very slow).  Also the "Ace and the Dog"  website
(which  has  Traveller  software)  cautions  against  using   VB6
programs on Windows 95 ... so I suggest Windows 98 or later  only
(unless you are feeling very brave).

If you are still interesed then I require the following info from
you for each test machine you try:

    O/S
    Processor
    Display (settings)
    Hard disk (type and through-put speed)
    System RAM

For example Universe was developed on:

    O/S:        Windows 98 (SE)
    Processor:  800 MHz Duron
    Display:    1152x864 32-bit
    Hard disk:  IDE-100
    System RAM: 256 Mb

Note that if (for example) you have  IDE-100  hard  disks  on  an
IDE-66 motherboard please quote the lower rating.

I also require an informal undertaking from you to respond  after
1 week's use ... giving an initial reaction (good  or  bad),  any
bugs found so far, any enhancements you'd like to  see,  and  any
help file improvements you want.  You can give  feedback  at  any
time but I need this as a minimum.

When I have this info I will send you details about where to find
the download file ... be warned the program comes in  a  10,826Kb
zip file and the sample database is a further 659Kb zip  file.  I
will also endeavour to keep you informed on any future release or
upgrades for as long as you desire.

In the meantime  you  can  download  and  install  the  Interbase
software  and  ODBC  driver  ...  check  out   the   Installation
Instructions on

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol/traveller/software/tu.html

(The Universe 'home page'.)



Regards PLST



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 03:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Jun 10 02:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Atmospheric Pressures and Charcters?
In-Reply-To: <20609.131946.7n9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <3D024B3D.29502.1974C52@localhost>
 <20609.131946.7n9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020610110926.38ed9a41.jenry023@student.liu.se>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> You won't be able to inhale against the pressure of the water on your
> chest. Heck, at *3* feet, it takes a noticeable effort to inflate your
> lungs against the water pressure if you are breathing thru a tube
> connected to the surface (3 feet = roughly 1/10 atm pressure difference)

Going off on a tangent here...

Water depth is also a great way of showing the pressure difference between normal atmospheric pressure and vacuum. The difference in pressure is the same as the difference between 10 meters (approx. 30 feet) water depth and the air just above the surface.

I wish I could explain this to certain Hollywood directors... *sigh*  When was the last time you saw a bottom-dwelling fish explode when brought to the surface?

> Vacuum tubes have problem with high pressures. So might other sealed
> units. And some "somewhat sealed" units will leak slowly. Which means
> when you take them back to normal pressure they'll tend to pop their
> seals.

Actually, making something completely sealed is virtually impossible (it might be theoretically impossible, I don't know for sure). Even the space shuttle leaks its atmosphere, although *very* slowly.

Wearing containment suits in hostile atmospheres is therefore a problem if the hostile atmosphere has a higher pressure than the atmosphere inside the suit. The nastiness will leak into the suit instead of the air leaking out. If the stuff is nasty enough, or if the suit is simply worn for long enough, this would be dangerous.

> Think of stuff like sealed containers of injectables and the like. Or
> containers of food.

No, no, no... it's only the Bug Eyed Monsters that are supposed to think of characters in pressure suits as containers of food...

/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 03:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Jun 10 02:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
In-Reply-To: <20020609.224458.-172023.4.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020609.224458.-172023.4.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020610111522.57b8000a.jenry023@student.liu.se>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> To begin:
> A fleet has entered jump space staggered in groups ie: scouts, then
> frigates, then etc, all perhaps minutes apart for each group.
> 
> The situation:
> A frigate mis-jumps and rolls destroyed.
> 
> Question:
> Could the destroyed frigate cause the remaining fleet ships behind the
> frigate to be forced out of jump space to normal space?
> Consequently running into a debris field.
> Or, would only the destroyed frigate be effected?

IMTU, the frigate is destroyed, spreading its component molecules out along the entire jump distance (in a vaguely cigarr-shaped area). The rest of the fleet is not affected, and they have no idea what happened to the frigatte. For all they know, it might just have misjumped.

/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 03:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Jun 10 02:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
In-Reply-To: <20020610062559.13017.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <F121Q6mBySsxVY60mJW0001a37a@hotmail.com>
 <20020610062559.13017.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020610111850.6c2c6f68.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Jeff Hopper <jeff37923@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Pardon my ignorance Mr. Whipsnade, but what exactly is
> a "Happy Fun Ball" in Traveller? Inspite of the cute
> name (which has been used to describe Beholders in D&D
> games I've played), I have no idea what it is. Please
> tell me.

The Broadsword class mercenary cruiser. It is ball-shaped and filled with all kinds of fun things...

/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 03:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon Jun 10 02:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
References: <F2728Wx1jgTGAP2tb3O0000408f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D05190B.E6B8A59F@mindspring.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> From: Jeff Hopper <jeff37923@yahoo.com>
>
>      "Pardon my ignorance Mr. Whipsnade, but what exactly is a "Happy Fun
> Ball" in Traveller?"
>
> Mr. Hopper,
>
>      I could be very wrong, but I thought it referred to the 800 dT Merc
> Cruiser.  I was trying to waddle up the displacement ladder of classic OTU
> ships as part of my explanation.
>      Oh, Mr. Hopper, no one is ignorant if they know how to ask questions!
> ;)
>
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

I was under the impression that it was the 1 Mdton? Tigress Battleship. Also a
sphere. Now which one makes you  happier!


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 04:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Huxton)
Date: Mon Jun 10 03:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
In-Reply-To: <F121Q6mBySsxVY60mJW0001a37a@hotmail.com>
References: <F121Q6mBySsxVY60mJW0001a37a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <200206101113.36876.red@archonet.com>

On Monday 10 Jun 2002 7:18 am, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>      Jump masking has quickly joined near-c rocks, piracy in the OTU,
> Heinlen's government in Starship Troopers, and a few other topics as th=
e
> Gordion Knot of the TML.

Of course IMTU pirates use the near-c rocks to effect jump-masking and hi=
jack=20
unsuspecting freighters...

- Richard Huxton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 05:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon Jun 10 04:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20609.030434.9O5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEDDHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Leonard Erickson wrote :
> In mail you write:
>
> > Much of the electronics used in the Nimitz during
> > the period of the movie(the eighties I believe) was
> > not that far advanced in actual fact. Much of
> > it was simply the application of knowledge that was
> > unknown in the 1940's. The actual technology was known,
> > just not how to apply it. For example both
> > circuit boards and transistors can be made using
> > simple photographic etching techniques that would have
> > been possible in the 1940's, if someone had
> > understood the material science involved.
>
> Nope. the technology *wasn't* known. To make
> transistors requires hyperpure silicon grown
> into perfect crystals.

The technology _was_ known. Yes it was not until 1948 that a
PN junction transistor was first demonstrated by Bell Labs,
but Karl Lark-Horovitz and his group at Purdue succeeded in
developing a very high back-voltage unit from purified
germanium crystals in 1942. In 1943 it was mass-produced
for use as detectors in microwave radars.

In 1940, Russell Ohl enlisted the assistance of Bell chemists in
preparing highly purified silicon. They were able to produce
ingots
with n and p type silicon at opposite ends of the same silicon
melt.
Ohl discovered the silicon photodetector (and the first p-n
junction
device) when a section was accidentally cut across an (invisible)
boundary between p and n regions of a silicon ingot solidifying
from a doped melt. The device was shown to Walter Brattain who
surmised that rectification was taking place at an internal
surface

> The technology could be duplicated, but nobody on the
> Nimitz is apt to know *how* it is done. Many may not
> even realize *how* pure the silicon has to be.
> To give you an idea, the dopants in a 100 kilo silicon
> ingot amount to less than a gram. The allowable impurities
> are well below the *milligram* level.

That's what they aim for producton of silicon because then
you can control the level of doping. To get a working PN junction
you don't need anywhere near that purity.

And doped silicon-silicon junctions are not the only, nor the
easiest for that matter, semi-conductor junctions to build.

IIRC Gallium-Arsenide junctions are easier to build in small
quantities, they are just harder to mass-produce.

> I used to work with this stuff. There's a *lot* more to merely
> producing the silicon wafers that you use those pohoto etching
> techniques to etch circuits onto than even folks in
> other segments of the electronics industry realize.

I believe the original poster was probably talking about
photo-etching normal circuit boards, not IC substrates.

> > Heck if the Nimitz library is in any way equal the
> > library of the U.S.S. John F. Kennedy I can guarantee
> > the sufficient knowledge was on board to bootstrap a
> > country with as much innovativeness as the U.S. rapidly
> > up a tech level.
>
> Sure, but even the *simple*ICs from a 1980 era carrier
> and planes are 2-3 TLs above the tech in 1941.

Actually, a "1980's era carrier" is largely equipped with
1960's or earlier era technology. Carriers were considered
out of date by the early 1970's, and had all been designed
_at _least_ ten years earlier

The Nimitz is not even as new as through-deck cruiser
design's such as the Kiev class which came in about 1976 IIRC.

Some of the planes it carried had 1950's era radio sets on
them which were valve based.

Even in the early eighties all serious power-amps were still
tube driven and all powerful radar units were klystron based,
because they still hadn't solved the problems of making
high-power transistors. IIRC, this was first solved by Yamaha
in the late seventies and not put into production until the
1980s.

> Heck, some of the tech involved in producing ICs is
> stuff that came out of the chemical engineering challenges
> in getting the gaseous diffusion plant at Oak Ridge working.
>
> The gases used in epitaxial process are not easy to
> handle. They are only slightly "nicer" to work with
> than the uranium hexafluoride at Oak Ridge.

True, but that's not the only way of manufacturing or fixing the
stuff.
Over here in the RNZAF we got quite used to fixing equipment the
USAF told us was unfixable by piggy-backing bread-boarded
discrete components over impossible-to-get IC's.

<snip>
> A lot of small countries have high tech weapons
> because the US or USSR were willing to sell them
> to change the local balance of power.

And the difference in the 3I is that the US is replaced by the 3I
and the USSR is replaced by the Zhodani or the Solomani

> When the lower TL worlds are a week or more away from
> their neighbors, it makes most of the "self-defense" and
"regional
> balance of power" arguments obvious BS.

I disagree.  The French played this game against the British in
the Americas when travel times tto the Americas were over a week.

> Also, without the "freebies" during the Cold War, and
> with a rather more realistic banking system than the one
> that let the third world countries borrow so much money,
> they are going to have trouble *affording* the fancy gear.

Why should the 3I's banking system be any more "realistic" than
ours ?

Just read the Zhunatsu Corporation's rules of trade in T4.

<snip>
> CG vehicles while be found. But stuff that doesn't
> need off-world parts will be more cost effective for
> most uses. That's unless the parts are *cheap*.

Or easy to manufacture if you buy a TL14 spare part
production plant at the same time as your TL12 grav tanks

Of course, this may make no sense to the merchants involved,
but you can, for instance, buy ink-jet refill kits from
manufacturers other than Hewlett Packard which fit HP
printers....

> Remember, the local government *can't* impress/intimidate the
> "neighbors" because said neighbors are a week (or
> more) in jump away.

Not true. "A week away" does not save you from intimidation.

I cite the blockage of the US Eastern seaboard during the
"War of 1812 in the American Colonies" <grin> as an example.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 05:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Mon Jun 10 04:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Hapsburgs
References: <F52uH3Fy2Qb9PHKTguQ0001a44f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D048ADD.1090601@gmx.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>
>
>     "The worst example of this kind of thing I ever encountered, 
> however, didn't involve written translation of a famous person's name."
>
>
> Mr. Ramen,
>
>     I just experienced a mind-shattering series of flashbacks 
> involving dubbed television shows...  Bonanza in Korean...  Three's 
> Company in Taiwanese...  The Love Boat, complete with dubbed laugh 
> track, in Turkish...  Gilligan's Island in FRENCH...  oooooggggg...
>     My pills... my pills... where are my pills...
>
Conan the Destroyer dubbed in French....Arnie with a French voice actor 
is just wrong...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 05:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Mon Jun 10 04:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial nobility
Message-ID: <OFD0A0731B.D683E0DA-ON42256BD4.0029EB3D@ko.com>

Greetings all

Given the discussion about nobles, I was wondering about the effects of
anagathics on the social order. In the Traveller universe I am playing in,
the nobility have considerably extended life-spans - it is a right of
nobility to be treated with the stuff. I remember reading an article about
this once, by Andy Slack if memory serves - likely to be incorrect, where
the virtually immortal nobility have lost touch with the 'ephemeral'
commoners. In this universe, the wildly divergent tech levels on different
worlds are a result of the ruling noble's policy.

Paul J. McAuley has a similar system in his books - the 'Golden' are the
ultra-rich aristocracy who have a monopoly on age-retarding drugs. 'King of
the Hill' is an anthology of short stories set in this universe. One story
I recall was about a little girl who has been kept at a physical age of
about 10 for over 30 years - she was a clone of her 'mother' and was kept
prisoner as a pet on a submarine habitat so that when 'mother' visited,
there would always be a little girl waiting for her. This story highlights
some of the issues of having such a huge gap in power between the fortunate
few, who can effectively ignore the law, and the rest. It also illustrates
how conservative and resistant to change that almost immortals become
(although I am not so sure that this shift to maintaining the status quo is
a given).

Regards

Clint Rynners


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 05:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon Jun 10 04:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B9298F32.5E1AB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEDFHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Tod Glenn wrote :
> on 6/9/02 10:59 PM, Mikko V. I. Parviainen at
> mvparvia@cc.hut.fi wrote:

> > The size could be smaller, if the antenna could be
> > directional. This> creates a whole lot of new
> > problems, of course...
>
> Also, the Iridium phones are Tri-mode. And would
> probably get smaller.

And who would care how big it was anyway as long as it _worked_ ?

"Man-portable" HF transcievers were not much fun to carry in the
sixties, but would any commander _not_ have one if he could ?

Especially if the enemy had them ?

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 06:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Mon Jun 10 05:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Hapsburgs
In-Reply-To: <3D048ADD.1090601@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10206101554090.4306-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Robert Houghton wrote:
> Conan the Destroyer dubbed in French....Arnie with a French voice actor 
> is just wrong...

Or, as I have seen, Arnie with a German voice actor, speaking poor German
(as the character speaks poor English in the original version, he must
speak poor German in the dubbed version.)

Horrible thing, dubbing. One of the reasons I speak foreign languages is
that I heard them from TV. (And yes, even if your mother tongue is
English, it might be good to learn another one. B-)

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 07:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Hopper)
Date: Mon Jun 10 06:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
In-Reply-To: <3D05190B.E6B8A59F@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020610131749.60483.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com>

> I was under the impression that it was the 1 Mdton?
> Tigress Battleship. Also a
> sphere. Now which one makes you  happier!
> 

The Broadsword class Mercenary Cruiser! Most
interstellar governments won't get nervous if the PC
party owns one. A personally owned Tigress Battleship
wandering around the Imperium might make the Emperor
cranky - not to mention what the Referee might do!

Whopper

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 07:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Mon Jun 10 06:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
In-Reply-To: <20020610131749.60483.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3D05190B.E6B8A59F@mindspring.com> <20020610131749.60483.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020610132816.GB17586@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 06:17:49AM -0700, Jeff Hopper wrote:
> 
> > I was under the impression that it was the 1 Mdton?
> > Tigress Battleship. Also a
> > sphere. Now which one makes you  happier!
> > 
> 
> The Broadsword class Mercenary Cruiser! Most
> interstellar governments won't get nervous if the PC
> party owns one. A personally owned Tigress Battleship
> wandering around the Imperium might make the Emperor
> cranky - not to mention what the Referee might do!
> 

ObSchlock:
...and the first thing that popped to mind was "Post Dated Check Loan".

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 09:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon Jun 10 08:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
References: <20609.145813.8e0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c21091$45ec1f80$ac00a8c0@imogen>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >>Don't forget that those phones are useless unless somone puts in the
> >>hundred or more satellites required to support them. And a facility to
> >>*maintain* said satellites.
> >>
> > That number of satellites is based on low Earth orbit. If placed in a
higher
> > orbit less satellites would be required.
>
> But the phones would require more power and larger antennas. that's
> *why* they are in low orbit. To keep the size of the *phones* down.

Er, maybe this is a dumb idea, but given cheap reliable grav  and
power why not have high-altitude comm 'satellites'  ...  or  even
not so high.  Easier to 'install'  than  microwave  towers  (just
uncrate it and program in its designated cell location,  id,  and
frequencies).  Have a few co-located in each cell with a rota  of
returning to base for recharging and  optional  maintenance.  And
with  a  mechanical  failsafe  parachute  system   in   case   of
catastrophic failure  its  probably  safer  than  a  conventional
orbital satellite (if that fails you can loose track of it as  it
becomes part of the space junk 'minefield').  Your phones can  be
small and low-powered, and your satellite doesn't have to get  up
to orbital speeds.  Or is this really dumb?

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 09:11:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon Jun 10 08:11:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Santanocheev
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGECBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001001c21091$4659fc80$ac00a8c0@imogen>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> Recall that Santanocheev was head of INI in the Marches until he
> became sector admiral; Norris and Santanocheev probably worked
> together before Norris became duke in 1095 or so.  Did Norris
> and his INI cronies misdirect Santanocheev about the likelihood
> of a Zhodani invasion?  How long before the war did Norris request
> the warrant?

I don't think  Santanocheev  was  head  of  INI  was  he  (except
indirectly as part of being in  charge  of  IN  in  the  Spinward
Marches)?  Santanocheev sidelined INI and set up a rival  agency:
ONI (Office of Naval Information).

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 09:11:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon Jun 10 08:11:32 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
References: <20020609191734.BE6DE27A14@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000e01c21091$45909200$ac00a8c0@imogen>

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> I saw something about this on some TV show, or other. It was supposed
> to be able to fire shells over a wall, exploding them to shower the
> enemy hiding there with fragments, or through a window exploding
> inside the building. IIRC, this was using "smart bullets"...that could
> be ?automatically? programmed by the weapons onboard computer.  I
> remember thinking to myself that the ability to have a bullet turn a
> corner and seek out individual targets must be right down the road.
> <g>

From fiction: the movie "Runaway" (Tom Selleck, 1984)  had  rifle
round sized steerable rockets  fired  from  a  handgun.  IIRC  it
homed on the target's heat signature.  This was in a  near-future
setting.  Okay, so its not a shotgun, but it  is  a  nice  little
weapon for the PCs nemesis.  ;-)

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 09:11:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon Jun 10 08:11:42 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
References: <F2728Wx1jgTGAP2tb3O0000408f@hotmail.com> <3D05190B.E6B8A59F@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <001101c21091$46beb1c0$ac00a8c0@imogen>

alan spik wrote:
> I was under the impression that it was the 1 Mdton? Tigress
> Battleship. Also a sphere. Now which one makes you  happier!

I also thought "Happy Fun Ball" referred to the Tigress.

(Minor nit-pick: the Tigress only displaces 0.5Mdtons, and it  is
a Dreadnaught.)

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 09:11:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon Jun 10 08:11:59 2002
Subject: [TML] re: traveller software
References: <JIBACEFDBCHLKDAA@angelfire.com> <00b001c2105a$b9ba71a0$ac00a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <001201c21091$471a3f40$ac00a8c0@imogen>

I wrote:
<snip>

<Sigh!>  Its obveously one of those days.  First I send the  beta
testers instuctions and omit the password.  Then it turns  out  a
URL in the instructions was incorrect.  And now I try to send  an
off-list response to someone's query  ...  only  to  discover  it
*wasn't* off-list after  all!  Sorry  for  taking  up  everyone's
bandwidth.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 09:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 10 08:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Hapsburgs
Message-ID: <90.2712e76b.2a361bb1@cs.com>

--part1_90.2712e76b.2a361bb1_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Douglas Berry writes:


> Real fun; make the Vilani characters look like crop circle patterns.. the 
> Earth is being tagged!
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> 

Great. Interstellar graffiti. OTOH I am looking forward to Mel Gibson's next 
movie, "Signs."

Doug Grimes

--part1_90.2712e76b.2a361bb1_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>Douglas Berry writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Real fun; make the Vilani characters look like crop circle patterns.. the 
<BR>Earth is being tagged!
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>--
<BR>
<BR>Douglas E. Berry &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;gridlore@mindspring.com
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Great. Interstellar graffiti. OTOH I am looking forward to Mel Gibson's next movie, "Signs."
<BR>
<BR>Doug Grimes</FONT></HTML>

--part1_90.2712e76b.2a361bb1_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 09:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Jun 10 08:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
Message-ID: <F77jdcK1A809gu1osrb0001ac56@hotmail.com>

From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com>

     "My undestanding of TL  is  that  represents  local  manufacturing
ability.  If you use Grand Census or World Builders Handbook this
definition is further refined as "High Common": the  upper  limit of a broad 
range or areas."


Mr. Trevor,

     Local manufacturing ability was my take on the subject too, until some 
"kind" soul(1) pointed out high tech, low pop worlds.  Can a world with 
thousands really maintain a TL F infrastructure?
     Then there's the Long Night and Hard Times to consider.  During each, 
the trade net fell apart and worlds slid down the tech level ladder.  If TL 
represents local ability, then no TL decrease would have occurred.
     Mr. Berry's "US vs. Botswana" example illustrates this rather well.  As 
he pointed out, if cut off from the rest of the world(2), the US could 
easily produce everything it needed inside its own borders with only a 
minimal hiccough in TL or the standard of living.  Botswana, on the other 
hand, would immediately experience famine, internal migration, and a massive 
drop in TL.
     So apparently TL is determined regardless of local population levels, 
local skills, or local infrastructure.

     "Also remember that the  "Ni"  trade  code  means  "Non-industrial
worlds are forced to import much of  their  finished  goods"  (CT
Book 3 p16)."

     That is a very interesting quote.  Coupled with the "TL as a measure of 
local manufacturing ability" description, I take it to mean that a TL A "Ni" 
world could manufacture all the TL A resource recovery equipment it needed, 
but not the TL A consumer goods the population wants or the TL A medicines 
they need.  So, LBB 3 already states a modification to the base TL 
description.
     That fits neatly with my metagaming explanation for our trouble with 
TLs in the OTU.  The CT rules were devised BEFORE the Third Imperium was 
created.  The rules are broad in scope so GMs could create and tweak 
personal TUs to their hearts' content.  In the official Third Imperium/OTU 
setting, a "strict" application of TLs cannot exist in the face of canonical 
free and constant trade.  The OTU stands in relation to the CT rule set as a 
GURPS worldbook does to the GURPS rule set.  While the rule sets necessarily 
present an extremely broad range of conditions, particular settings require 
that certain rules be either ignored (i.e. magic in GURPS WW2) or heavily 
modified (i.e. TLs in the OTU).

     "...there can be occasional errors in the IISS records  (IIRC  this
is canon) so the world in question might have a higher TL."

     Oh, yes, if only because...

     "[1] = Remember that worlds are not static."

     "Meanwhile Knorbes has 80 million and is TL 2.  That's  a  lot  of
people ... they've obviously been there awhile.  There is no sign
of a global war (the atmosphere  isn't  tainted).  And  both  the
class E starport and the lack of an Ni code suggest there's not a
big interest in interstellar trade.  Okay, perhaps this really is
one of those 57th century Amish worlds!"

     Could any of the List's data base divers perform a little search for 
me?  Let's comb through the Third Imperium and count the number of worlds 
that are:

     A) Pre-industrial, tech level 3 and below
     B) Have populations one million or greater, 6+
     C) Have "normal" atmospheres, 5, 6 or 8
     D) And are not rated Ni (I realize this bit might have a minimal 
effect, Ni world have pops of 1 million or less and I set the pop search 
value at one million or greater.)

     Just how many 57th century Amish worlds would that give us?  Is it one 
per subsector or one per sector?  I would think that one world of 
technophobes per sector would be just enough, anything more means that we'll 
need another plausible excuse to explain away our TL troubles.
     To recap; we know that most worlds cut off from trade suffer TL slides, 
regardless of any other factor.  We know that some worlds must import 
finished goods of a certain TL despite their TL ratings.  We know that TLs 
can be divided into discrete subsets and that those subsets can be rated 
higher or lower than the base TL.
     So, what does TL measure?
     I'm leaning towards the per capita income explanation.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

(1) - Kind enough to point out what I had overlooked, not so kind as to 
solve the ensuing riddle for me.

(2) - The US may be able to feed, clothe, medicate, etc. itself without any 
help from beyond its borders, but such a move would be a major catastrophe.  
I know many in the US wish the world would go away and many in the world 
wish the US would go away, but such a such an occurrance would be 
disasterous for both sides.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 09:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Jun 10 08:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Hapsburgs
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22987@USCHM203>

>On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 Robert Houghton wrote:
> Conan the Destroyer dubbed in French....Arnie with a French voice actor 
> is just wrong...

I'd like to know who made the decision to dub the first "Mad Max" movie from
English into...well, English.
Even worse, when "The Road Warrior" (Mad Max II) appeared on Network
Television, the atmospheric opening narrative was overdubbed by a guy who
sounded like Wilford Brimley(the Quaker Oats guy).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 09:35:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Jun 10 08:35:16 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Hapsburgs
Message-ID: <F1763MCckuA1elSOnZ20001995d@hotmail.com>

From: Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net>

     "Conan the Destroyer dubbed in French....Arnie with a French voice
actor is just wrong..."


Mr. Houghton,

     The Skipper referring to Gilligan as "mon petit cher" will shock you to 
your core.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. "If I was marooned on an island with Mary Ann and Ginger, I 
wouldn't want to be rescued either" Whipsnade


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 09:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Jun 10 08:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
In-Reply-To: <20020610062559.13017.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <F121Q6mBySsxVY60mJW0001a37a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020610081034.009eb5f0@mindspring.com>

At 11:25 PM 6/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Pardon my ignorance Mr. Whipsnade, but what exactly is
>a "Happy Fun Ball" in Traveller? Inspite of the cute
>name (which has been used to describe Beholders in D&D
>games I've played), I have no idea what it is. Please
>tell me.

The Tigress-class Dreadnought from Supplement 9: Fighting Ships.  It is a 
large sphere and resembles PacMan. The name comes from the infamous "Happy 
Fun Ball fine print" which can be found here:

http://www.happyfunball.com/hfb.html

The operative one when dealing with a 500,000 dton battle ship is "Do not 
taunt Happy Fun Ball."

(Note: The worst decision GDW ever made in the Classic Period was getting 
Paul Jayquays (sp?) to do the art for that book.  He just wasn't Traveller 
to me.)


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 09:40:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Jun 10 08:40:17 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCELMCIAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
References: <200206090428.AAA04237@shell.cinternet.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020610082013.009ffec0@mindspring.com>

At 11:13 PM 6/9/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> > Finally I adjust the cost of an item based on its tech difference from
> > the local.  I usually modify the cost by:
> >
> >     cost increase = 100% * (production TL - local TL)
> >
> > Thus a TL 10 item on a TL 8 world will cost 200% *more* than it would
> > on a TL 10 world.
>
>So if I buy an FGMP15 on a Tech Level 15 world, do I get it for free?

No, you get it for "book price."  Plus the dealer's mark-up.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 09:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Jun 10 08:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
Message-ID: <F249F37ADzUffh9ylnO000171c1@hotmail.com>

From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>

     "I was under the impression that it was the 1 Mdton? Tigress 
Battleship. Also a sphere."


Mr. Spik,

     Ah, I was wrong!  Thank you!

     "Now which one makes you happier!"

     Oh, the Tigress for certain.  Being able to indulge in some minor moon 
busting with a Tigress sure beats the bejabbers out of a Merc Crusier's 
loadout.  It's like the difference between plinking cans with a .22 varmint 
rifle or using a MIRVed ICBM...
     Oooooo... look at all the pretty colors...


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. "Does the size of my gun point to certain physical 
inadequacies?" Whipsnade


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 09:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Mon Jun 10 08:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Greg Bear and a language digression
In-Reply-To: <20608.143345.8H1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0206100807570.6100-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> I haven't read the book, but from various references I've seen, the
> basic idea is equivalent to the universe being a big computer program.
> And they tweak the parameters governing a given "object" in the
> "dataspace".
>
> In short, to move you from New York to San Francisco "all" I'd need to
> do is change the location decriptor of the data structure that *is*
> you.

That's what I'd thought he was saying.

> *How* one can manipulate the structure of reality at this level is the
> trick.

And that's exactly my conceptual disconnect as well. :)
Maybe it never was explained in any more detail.

> "All" you need to do is be able to do the equivalent of edit a field in
> a database. Finding the database and being able to edit it are the real
> problems.

Exactly.

> At a much "coarser" level, a number of SF stories (and some speculation
> by real physicists) has ideas such as being able "seperate" things like
> momentum from an object. This lets you do neat things too.

That does sound interesting. I'll have to google for that.

pause, pondering yet another word being verbized, causing poor Mr.
Thurber to do a few more turns in his grave...

<digression alert>

Greg Bear's novella, "Hardfought" which I'm reading now seems apropos -
the main character, Prufrax (a rapidly grown human "glover", or fighter
pilot without starfighters - just a fightsuit which is mainly cybernetic
gloves and some kind of field for environment/propulsion) uses a small
vocabulary and it gets hard to understand sometimes.  All she knows is
"the zap" and "her overs"  (leaders), "tellmen" (teachers), etc.,
primarily because it seems humanity is growing LOTS of them quickly to
counter the alien Senexi (millions of years old race from low-metal
content stars and "simpler"  biochemistry).  He presents her character
well (and her growing knowledge and expressive capability that is the
basis for the story).  Makes me wonder about the evolution of languages
again.  As static as recording technology can make a language (through
print and electronic media) it still has to be flexible enough to allow
for new word creation as new technologies are developed and new
experiences/events happen.  And it seems that after 3,000 years the sheer
weight of trying to accomodate all the historical events, cultural
phenomenon, literature, etc. will cause a language to effectively mutate
to a substantial degree.  I.e., there's little chance 21st c. people could
understand any Imperials (or Solomani for that matter) that happened to
*really* misjump.  (See? I managed to wrangle an ObTrav out of it! :)

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 09:56:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Jun 10 08:56:50 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
In-Reply-To: <F2728Wx1jgTGAP2tb3O0000408f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020610155535.9E43127A5F@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/10/02 at 07:05 AM,  "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> said:

>From: Jeff Hopper <jeff37923@yahoo.com>

>     "Pardon my ignorance Mr. Whipsnade, but what exactly is a "Happy
>Fun  Ball" in Traveller?"


>Mr. Hopper,

>     I could be very wrong, but I thought it referred to the 800 dT
>Merc  Cruiser.  I was trying to waddle up the displacement ladder of
>classic OTU  ships as part of my explanation.

That is also my understanding of the term, Mr. Whipsnade.  The "Happy
Fun Ball" is the 800 dT Merc Cruiser. BTW, what other ship classes
have acquired nicknames, and what are they?

>     Oh, Mr. Hopper, no one is ignorant if they know how to ask
>questions!   ;)

...and are smart enough to accept the right answers. ;->

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 10:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 10 09:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <000f01c21091$45ec1f80$ac00a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <B92A21AA.5E1FD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/10/02 7:27 AM, Peter L.S. Trevor at ptrevor@rctrevor.com wrote:

> Er, maybe this is a dumb idea, but given cheap reliable grav  and
> power why not have high-altitude comm 'satellites'  ...  or  even
> not so high.  Easier to 'install'  than  microwave  towers  (just
> uncrate it and program in its designated cell location,  id,  and
> frequencies).  Have a few co-located in each cell with a rota  of
> returning to base for recharging and  optional  maintenance.  And
> with  a  mechanical  failsafe  parachute  system   in   case   of
> catastrophic failure  its  probably  safer  than  a  conventional
> orbital satellite (if that fails you can loose track of it as  it
> becomes part of the space junk 'minefield').  Your phones can  be
> small and low-powered, and your satellite doesn't have to get  up
> to orbital speeds.  Or is this really dumb?

An interesting idea.  Why not just power it with ground based microwaves?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 10:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 10 09:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
In-Reply-To: <000e01c21091$45909200$ac00a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <B92A2213.5E1FE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/10/02 3:59 AM, Peter L.S. Trevor at ptrevor@rctrevor.com wrote:

>> From fiction: the movie "Runaway" (Tom Selleck, 1984)  had  rifle
> round sized steerable rockets  fired  from  a  handgun.  IIRC  it
> homed on the target's heat signature.  This was in a  near-future
> setting.  Okay, so its not a shotgun, but it  is  a  nice  little
> weapon for the PCs nemesis.  ;-)
> 

I'm suddenly reminded of the army's experiments with miniature recon drones.
Some are as small as a robin.  Add a small explosive charge and a guidance
system and Voila!

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 10:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 10 09:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Hapsburgs
In-Reply-To: <F1763MCckuA1elSOnZ20001995d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B92A2278.5E206%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/10/02 8:34 AM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:

> Mr. Houghton,
> 
> The Skipper referring to Gilligan as "mon petit cher" will shock you to
> your core.
> 
> 
> Sincerely,
> Larsen E. "If I was marooned on an island with Mary Ann and Ginger, I
> wouldn't want to be rescued either" Whipsnade

I'm still traumatized by Arnold 'Strong' Swarzzenegger's voice being dubbed
over in "Hercules comes to New York" (for many reasons).

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 10:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Jun 10 09:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] tagging
In-Reply-To: <90.2712e76b.2a361bb1@cs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206100944480.20424-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

> Douglas Berry writes:
> 
> 
> > Real fun; make the Vilani characters look like crop circle patterns.. the 
> > Earth is being tagged!

Keyboard kill!

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 10:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Jun 10 09:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Colo. Gamers
Message-ID: <m3u1obdqqk.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

I just found out that there's to be a gaming convention in Fort
Collins this Friday through Sunday.  The website is
<http://www.fort-con.com/>.  Looks like there are two Traveller games
going on (no idea what system).

My only relation to the con is that I received an email advertising it
from two of the organisers, who are in the SCA up there.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Voskrese!  Voistinu Voskrese!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 10:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 09:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <F77jdcK1A809gu1osrb0001ac56@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023728212.5758.ajackson@ping>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:

> 
>      Could any of the List's data base divers perform a little search for 
> me?  Let's comb through the Third Imperium and count the number of worlds 
> that are:
> 
>      A) Pre-industrial, tech level 3 and below
>      B) Have populations one million or greater, 6+
>      C) Have "normal" atmospheres, 5, 6 or 8
>      D) And are not rated Ni (I realize this bit might have a minimal 
> effect, Ni world have pops of 1 million or less and I set the pop search 
> value at one million or greater.)

Within that rather limited list, 31 Imperial worlds, or 1-2 per sector.

Of course, they're no harder to explain than worlds like Retinae (0416 Spinward
Marches, E8C69AA-5).  Does anyone really think that TL 5 allows supporting 9
billion people on a world with a corrosive atmosphere?  Of course, with the
'per capita GWP' explanation it just means the world is really poor, but
probably does have somewhere around TL 9 life support.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 11:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 10:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <E17HJvP-0005b6-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023729954.113.ajackson@ping>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:

> > This has realism benefits (varying wealth is much more likely to occur
> > than actual huge variation in technical knowledge), but has the
> > problem that it becomes fairly difficult to figure out what equipment
> > will actually exist on any given world.
> 
> It's honestly not *that* difficult - assume most things are at the 
> listed tech level (ie the tech the that world could normally create, 
> except for light weight consumer goods

Well, that's rather simplistic; it really only works in cases where the high
tech goods are more expensive than the low tech goods.  There are multiple
instances where the higher tech goods are both cheaper and better than the low
tech good.  This is ubiquitous in GURPS Traveller (due to the GURPS TL system),
but also occurs in other Traveller design sequences; for example, a TL 15
fusion plant is half the size of a TL 14 fusion plant, and is also half as
expensive.

> prosperous the world it.  Also, in all cases(baring laws against high 
> quality medicine), medicine will be lots more advanced on every 
> Imperial world, since even the TL 5 world will have doctors trained 
> with hard copies of advanced anatomy texts, and information on 
> diseases and their treatment that is far more advanced than we had 
> in 1930 (as well as access to a limited number of advanced drugs).

Actually, I'm not sure this is true.  Modern medicine is getting expensive
rapidly, and the primary limitation on 3rd world medicine isn't medical
knowledge, it's sanitation systems.  Understanding of how diseases work may
prevent medicine from dropping below around TL 5, but higher tech medicine may
well be fairly limited.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 11:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 10:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
References: <20609.145813.8e0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3D04E46D.70308@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> 
> But the phones would require more power and larger antennas. that's
> *why* they are in low orbit. To keep the size of the *phones* down.

Doesn't matter if the phones are in a phone booth. (which is, in fact 
how many of the phones *are* being handled in the third world, for just 
these sort of range reasons)

Nothing in all of this says the *phones* have to be portable, merely not 
connected to a physical grid.

For that matter, a small village *could* be wired rather cheaply, and 
connected to a cheap switch if you want multiple phones there. Do VoIP 
or some other digital technology, so your phones are packet-driven, then 
the technology is *real* cheap. An existing $50 10/100mb desktop switch 
would handle several voice conversations just fine.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 11:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Jun 10 10:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Greg Bear and a language digression
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0206100807570.6100-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206101045130.20424-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Rob Davenport wrote:

> 
> On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> > In mail you write:
> >
> > I haven't read the book, but from various references I've seen, the
> > basic idea is equivalent to the universe being a big computer program.
> > And they tweak the parameters governing a given "object" in the
> > "dataspace".
> >
> > In short, to move you from New York to San Francisco "all" I'd need to
> > do is change the location decriptor of the data structure that *is*
> > you.
> 
> That's what I'd thought he was saying.

Hm, this reminds me of the magick system in Diane Duane's Wizardry books.

That's kind of how THEY do it.

> > *How* one can manipulate the structure of reality at this level is the
> > trick.
> 
> And that's exactly my conceptual disconnect as well. :)
> Maybe it never was explained in any more detail.

It's magick.  As in, "any sufficiently advanced technology..."  ^_~

Kiri :)
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 11:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 10:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020609155629.009edc30@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <3D04E78D.5060800@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Kelly St.Clair wrote:

>> The only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do
>> naught.
> 
> 
> Um... the metric system (and/or advocation of same) is evil now?

Of COURSE it is, all those damn furriners use it...prolly a Commie Plot 
to poison our Precious Bodily Fluids.

Next thing you know, they'll be calling some weird furriner sport 
'footbal' or something...;-P

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 12:13:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Jun 10 11:13:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCECDCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
>
>Um... the metric system (and/or advocation of same) is evil now?

Well, as they say, tape measures don't measure distances -- people measure
distances.

Ob Traveller, the Vilani must have developed a system of weights and
measures that probably remained in use through the Rule of Man.  Replacing
that system was probably rather low on the priority list of the Terran
conquerors.  During the Long Night, everybody continued using whatever
system they had had before.  It's possibly that part of the Calendar Edict
included establishment of a new Imperial weights and measures system,
apparently the Terran metric system.  Sylea must have adopted the metric
system during the Rule of Man era, as part of the process of
self-terrification.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 12:13:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Jun 10 11:13:31 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  OT: Hapsburgs
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEECDCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
>
>How about old Star Trek in German, Tenchi Muyo in Spanish...

I once got a total brain cramp from watching a French detective show with
Finnish subtitles.  I was using the Finnish to fill in the gaps in the
French.  After a while, I couldn't even say goodnight, in Finnish or
English, so I just took another shot of vodka and staggered off to bed.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 12:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Jun 10 11:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
Message-ID: <200206101349.AA3997932@caddocourt.com>

From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>Of course, they're no harder to explain than worlds like Retinae (0416 Spinward
>Marches, E8C69AA-5).  Does anyone really think that TL 5 allows supporting 9
>billion people on a world with a corrosive atmosphere?

Funny you would pick that planet ...

In this particular case, an unmodified TL 5 in a corrosive atmosphere is quite fine as the 9 billion people are non-human natives that actually breathe the stuff as part of their normal biology.

The only humans on the planet are a small Imperial research station.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 13:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Jun 10 12:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Roleplaying the Type S benefit
Message-ID: <3D04FD34.F043160B@mail.cswnet.com>

Shawn R Sears writes:
<snippaged>
>I really don't know too many players who would want to role play through
>all that paper work...

I don't have reams of forms to dump on my players, but I think its
reasonalbe to say ok, you've looked over the tech orders for your ship,
and there is some commentary on the starboard fuel pump system. At which
point the pc would have it looked at before he/she signed for the ship.
Better to find out about it at the scout base then getting that >warning
light< 37 seconds after lift off.

<further snippaged>
>You mustered out, here's you ship, (make lemon roll), now off to adventure

Without making at least a cursory check of the ships paper work, I can
guarantee that you'll be in for an advernture. Just not the one you were
looking for :> ...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 13:33:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Mon Jun 10 12:33:10 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEJJEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206102129130.9736-100000@svati>

On Sun, 9 Jun 2002, Terry Carlino wrote:

>Exactly, and the invent part has already been done and all those lower TL
>planets know it. There isn't any new technology, except at TL F. Everything
>else has already been invented. They may not be able to make something
>because they don't have the tools or the tools to make the tools, but it
>won't be because they don't know how to make it.

But even if the info is right there in front of them, it doesn;t mean that they
necessarily know what that info means. They can educate people to do it, but
that could take decades.

>They're best import may be books and ebooks (along with readers.) They don't
>have to invent any of this. They already know how to do it. As in the
>present societies that refuse to educate their young in science and
>technology will fail to advance. Which may say more about why low TL worlds
>still exist than anything.

True, but it doesn;t just have to be the one that refuse to educate, but also
the worlds that lack the resources to educate enough people. One then runs
into the question of what is the lower limit on people to achieve a certain
tech level. Is 1000 people enough to sustain a TL15 soceity?

Tommy Grav



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 13:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 12:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <200206101349.AA3997932@caddocourt.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023737853.1051.ajackson@ping>

Mike West writes:
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
> >Of course, they're no harder to explain than worlds like Retinae (0416
> >Spinward Marches, E8C69AA-5).  Does anyone really think that TL 5 allows
> >supporting 9 billion people on a world with a corrosive atmosphere?
> 
> Funny you would pick that planet ...

Hm..and gee, the same handwave for Gyomar.  Guess we have to limit ourselves to
places like Tondoul (E5136A7-4); 7 million people at TL 4 with only a trace
atmosphere...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 13:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 12:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206102129130.9736-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023737952.5627.ajackson@ping>

Tommy Grav writes:

> True, but it doesn;t just have to be the one that refuse to educate, but
> also the worlds that lack the resources to educate enough people. One then
> runs into the question of what is the lower limit on people to achieve a
> certain tech level. Is 1000 people enough to sustain a TL15 soceity?

Given the existence of the long night, it's doubtful that anything short of a
Hi-pop world can support a high TL society without trade, and even the Hi-pop
worlds had pretty serious troubles.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 14:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon Jun 10 13:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
References: <200206090428.AAA04237@shell.cinternet.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020610082013.009ffec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c210bb$841e4420$ac00a8c0@imogen>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> > So if I buy an FGMP15 on a Tech Level 15 world, do I get it for free?
> 
> No, you get it for "book price."  Plus the dealer's mark-up.

Plus tax.  ;-)

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 14:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Jun 10 13:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <3D04E78D.5060800@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020610201459.99C5027A7E@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/10/02 at 10:53 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>Kelly St.Clair wrote:

>>> The only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do
>>> naught.
>> 
>> 
>> Um... the metric system (and/or advocation of same) is evil now?

>Of COURSE it is, all those damn furriners use it...prolly a Commie
>Plot  to poison our Precious Bodily Fluids.

Nah!  It's much older than that.  It's an insidious Frenchy plot, and
although they keep losing wars, the Frog's appear to be winning this
one.

>Next thing you know, they'll be calling some weird furriner sport 
>'footbal' or something...;-P

That's easy to fix, I've taken to spelling the soccer
version 'futbol'...sounds almost the same as *real* football (and
Bruce knows which one that is, so you furriners don't have to
interpret it for us), but is appropriately furrin looking so as not to
confuse us.  Lord knows things are
confusing enough today without anybody messing with our
football! <g>


Eris,
    hitting the 3 hole like Bronco Nigurski!

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 14:24:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Jun 10 13:24:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Colo. Gamers
In-Reply-To: <m3u1obdqqk.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020610202321.3FEF827A79@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/10/02 at 10:48 AM,  ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
said:

>I just found out that there's to be a gaming convention in Fort
>Collins this Friday through Sunday.  The website is
><http://www.fort-con.com/>.  Looks like there are two Traveller games
>going on (no idea what system).

It's hard to find out about cons, sometimes. I accidentally found out
there was a con about 60 miles from my home (MobilCon) on the Saturday
night of the weekend when it occurred. Well, I missed that one, and
seeing as Ft. Collins is a bit further from me than Mobile was, I'll
be missing this one too.

>My only relation to the con is that I received an email advertising
>it from two of the organisers, who are in the SCA up there.

Speaking of SCA, I was taking my morning constitutional and passed a
newly built (and occupied) house. I swear there was a sheild, complete
with painted heraldry, lying on the front porch. Unless something
*really* strange is going on in there, I think I've spotted the lair
of some lord. <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 14:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 13:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
References: <200206090428.AAA04237@shell.cinternet.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020610082013.009ffec0@mindspring.com> <000c01c210bb$841e4420$ac00a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <3D050D98.90107@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:
> Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
>>>So if I buy an FGMP15 on a Tech Level 15 world, do I get it for free?
>>
>>No, you get it for "book price."  Plus the dealer's mark-up.
> 
> 
> Plus tax.  ;-)

And don't forget the Arms Transfer License, and you likely have to show 
a valid Import license from a recognized state and/or corporate entity 
who have posted a bond sufficient to cover the sort of damage one could 
do with a weapon like that.

It is, after all, like trying to buy an M1 Abrams tank, in today's terms.

You really can't just traipse on down to Honest Harry's Slightly Used 
Military Surplus, plonk down a wad of dingy 100's and expect to just 
pick one up...

And if your players piss and moan about it, fine, let 'em onto a world 
where FGMP's (and other such goodies) are commonly available....

PC: "This is Free Trader Big Munchkin requesting landing clearance"

Tower: "FRESH ME..hrmf <sounds of struggle>";

Tower voice 2: "Never mind him, Big Munchkin, come on down. You're 
cleared to land at docking bay 67a"

<Trailing off, as if he's moving away from an open mike> "What'd I tell 
you <smack> about letting on! We want to get 'em down on the ground so's 
we can take 'em."

Then relieve 'em of their ship. After all, even after they've bnought 
their coveted free-market FGMP, the other boyos laying in wait can 
simply say "Well these guys came down and got wild, just like a bunch of 
them do when they get these things. Don't they understand they're not 
toys? We're sorry, but we had to defend ourselves, and, as you know, a 
fusion gun isn't going to leave much for the forensics guys.

"Their ship? Well a large damage lien has been placed on it, so if their 
bank wants it back they're gonna have to pay for it."


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 14:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 10 13:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
Message-ID: <20020610.134013.-69441.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 11:15:22 +0200 Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
writes:
>
> IMTU, the frigate is destroyed, spreading its component molecules out
along the entire jump distance (in a vaguely cigar-shaped area). The rest
of the fleet is not affected, and they have no idea what happened to the
frigatte. For all they know, it might just have misjumped.
> 
 
On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 06:18:38 +0000 "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>      If in jump space, there's no problem.  Everyone else jumps
normally and the frigate, or pieces of it, suffer an unknown fate in jump
space.

OK, next questions.

If a jump field is destroyed (because the frigate exploded), why would
the debris remain in jump space?
What's keeping the debris there?

Turokan



________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 14:48:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 13:48:05 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <3D050D98.90107@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023742042.6212.ajackson@ping>

Bruce Johnson writes:

> It is, after all, like trying to buy an M1 Abrams tank, in today's terms.

Well, intermediate; an M1 costs a bit more than an FGMP.  Still, it's at least
equivalent to buying a 20mm cannon or some such.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 15:02:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 14:02:05 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
References: <ML-2.3.1023742042.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D0513A5.8070101@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Bruce Johnson writes:
> 
> 
>>It is, after all, like trying to buy an M1 Abrams tank, in today's terms.
> 
> 
> Well, intermediate; an M1 costs a bit more than an FGMP.  Still, it's at least
> equivalent to buying a 20mm cannon or some such.

I was thinking in terms of destructive effect, not cost, but the analogy 
still holds...you can't just buy artillery like that, in general, and 
places where you *can* tend to be scary places to be, in general.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 15:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 14:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <m3sn3w198t.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20610.133512.9Y1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:

>> You are prejudiced against the metric system.  Fine.  But don't try
>> to force people to do extra work just to suit your prejudices.
>
> The only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do
> naught.

Which is exactly why I'm complaining.

> Don't try to make _me_ do extra work to support _your_ prejudices...

But *I'm* right! :-)

And I'm not trying to make you do extra work. You did that yourself
when you converted from Kelvin to Rankine. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 15:10:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 14:10:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <3D04E78D.5060800@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20610.133745.0p3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Kelly St.Clair wrote:
>
>>> The only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do
>>> naught.
>> 
>> 
>> Um... the metric system (and/or advocation of same) is evil now?
>
> Of COURSE it is, all those damn furriners use it...prolly a Commie Plot 
> to poison our Precious Bodily Fluids.

Ahem.

The metric system has been legal in the US for over 200 years. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 15:10:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 14:10:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Atmospheric Pressures and Charcters?
In-Reply-To: <20020610110926.38ed9a41.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20610.133848.0Y1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>> You won't be able to inhale against the pressure of the water on your
>> chest. Heck, at *3* feet, it takes a noticeable effort to inflate your
>> lungs against the water pressure if you are breathing thru a tube
>> connected to the surface (3 feet = roughly 1/10 atm pressure difference)
>
> Going off on a tangent here...
>
> Water depth is also a great way of showing the pressure difference between 
> normal atmospheric pressure and vacuum. The difference in pressure is the 
> same as the difference between 10 meters (approx. 30 feet) water depth and 
> the air just above the surface.
>
> I wish I could explain this to certain Hollywood directors... *sigh*  When 
> was the last time you saw a bottom-dwelling fish explode when brought to the 
> surface?

*Deep* dwelling fishes *do* suffer those sorts of effects.

The big thing that gets forgotten is that skin is *leather*. In the
case of humans, fairly thin leather, but leather nonetheless.

>> Vacuum tubes have problem with high pressures. So might other sealed
>> units. And some "somewhat sealed" units will leak slowly. Which means
>> when you take them back to normal pressure they'll tend to pop their
>> seals.
>
> Actually, making something completely sealed is virtually impossible (it 
> might be theoretically impossible, I don't know for sure). Even the space 
> shuttle leaks its atmosphere, although *very* slowly.

You can seal stuff against an atmosphere or so rather easily.
Especially if it's small. Otherwise "vacuum" packed canisters of various
things wouldn't be possibly. 

> Wearing containment suits in hostile atmospheres is therefore a
> problem if the hostile atmosphere has a higher pressure than the
> atmosphere inside the suit. The nastiness will leak into the suit
> instead of the air leaking out.  If the stuff is nasty enough, or if
> the suit is simply worn for long enough, this would be dangerous.

Which is why you use a slight *overpressure*. Same idea with clean
rooms. They are kept at slightly *above* the outside air pressure so
that leaks are all going *out*. 

This will be a problem if the surrounding atmosphere reacts badly with
oxygen, nitrogen, CO2, or water. <eg>

>> Think of stuff like sealed containers of injectables and the like. Or
>> containers of food.
>
> No, no, no... it's only the Bug Eyed Monsters that are supposed to think of 
> characters in pressure suits as containers of food...

Phbbbbt!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 15:10:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 14:10:51 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEIMHKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <20610.134445.9o4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Well, one point that gets overlooked regarding using grav vehicles to
> reach orboit is that there's *big* difference between reaching orbital
> (or higher) altitude and achieving orbit.
>
> That grav vehicle not only has to get up to the right altitude, it has
> to be moving at 8 km/sec in the right direction (assuming an earthlike
> planet).
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Why,
>
> As was said, grav tech is cheap.  I think it is likely to assume that
> a commsat has a communicator on board.  given simple navigation
> equipment a small power thruster and enough intelligence in the
> system, it is easy to picture a dump out the airlock system that
> puts itself into the correct orbit.  I hope that he sats don't break
> too often and don't break altogether when they do.  a couple of spares in
> a higher orbit could drop into the correct slot until the broken
> bird is fixed.

Actually, it's easier for the *vehicle* to do the velocity changes. 

If the tech isn't "magic", then it's going to take over 32 *megajoules*
per kilogram to get that satellite up to orbital velocity. And the same
to get it slowed down again. That's going to require a fusion plant or
some *really* impressive batteries (which will have to contain
considerably *more* than 64 MJ/kg to have enough power left over for
moving the *rest* of the satellite).

BTW, 64 MJ/kg is over 15 times the energy content of TNT. 

And unless the batteries are *really* impressive, most of the mass of
the satellite would be thrusters and batteries.

Oh yeah, at .1 g (a lot more accel than is needed for stationkeeping)
it'd take 2.2 hours to get up to orbital speed.

And finally, if the satellite is doing the moving and the vehicle
isn't, what are you going to do if the problem is that the thrusters or
batteries died? Or the receiver for the commands?

The service vehicle *has* to be able to match velocities with a
satellite that's "dead".

And no, you can't just leave dead satellites up there. They're a hazard
to ships and to other satellites.

> there is enough other expensive stuff that goes into a colony that I think
> level
> would be base line for a colony,  the first level is about on the class 1
> (type e)
> Spaceport would need.

I think you dropped a word. I assume that you mean "level 1" is
baseline. 

Maybe. But remember that in Traveller, not all worlds were established
as colonies. Some could be the results of a ship that misjumped into
the system and couldn't be repaired. Others could have been colonies
that got cut off during the Long Night and lost their satellites then.
Still others are "minor" human races planted by the ancients.

And some will be aliens native to the planet.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 15:11:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 14:11:08 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEECBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20610.140025.6e3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>>
>>     Most Third World countries are doing just that.  They're completely
>>skipping over the wire period and jumping into the wireless age.  The
>>developed world's continued use of land lines is due more to industrial
>>inertia; we've sunk trillions into it and the infrastructure is already
>>there, so we might as well keep using it, then any actual benefits land
>>lines give us.
>>     Take Mexico for an example.  I was involved with a telecom project
> down
>>there in the early 90s.  Phone service in Mexico was excreable.  Common
>
> Latvia, as I recall, did the same thing some 10 years ago.  They were going
> to wire the major cities and set up cell phone stuff in the rural areas, but
> decided to do exactly the opposite.  It was easier to set up cell phone
> towers in the cities than to try to fix and expand decades of Soviet-era
> wiring.
>
> It proved easy to string phone lines across the relatively small
> countryside; I'm not sure whether it was cheaper than cell phone towers, but
> that's what they did.
>
> Maybe it was Estonia or Lithuania, but I think it was Latvia.

It helps that these days you can just string a single fiber optic cable
(which typically will have at least 6 fibers in it) and have all the
capacity you'll need for a *long* time.

And the trenches needed are so narrow that they can be dug quickly and
easily. 

It also helps (in poor countries) to show the locals that the cable is
*not* copper wire, and is essentially *worthless* if they dig it up. 

That's a big problem with copper cables in isolated areas. Especially
the old lead sheathed ones. The copper (and lead) are *easy* to salvage
from them and worth quite a bit as scrap metal.

I was *given* several feet of the old lead sheathed cable by a
telephone maintenance worker when I was a kid. I could slit the
sheathing with a knife or with a pair of diagonal cutters. and the
wires were insulated with *paper*. So if I'd wanted it as scrap, I
could have just cut the wire bundle into convenient lengths and dumped
it into a crucible and let the paper burn off as I melted the copper.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 15:12:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Jun 10 14:12:08 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206102129130.9736-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEKFEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>Exactly, and the invent part has already been done and all those lower TL
>>planets know it. There isn't any new technology, except at TL F.
Everything
>>else has already been invented. They may not be able to make something
>>because they don't have the tools or the tools to make the tools, but it
>>won't be because they don't know how to make it.
>
>But even if the info is right there in front of them, it doesn;t mean that
they
>necessarily know what that info means. They can educate people to do it,
but
>that could take decades.
>
Exactly! And most low TL worlds have been inhabited how many hundreds of
years? Like I said in another post: All very reasonable for a period
equivalent to the 1930s in the South Pacific, some 30 to 50 years after the
technological invention of the auto, aircraft, radio, etc. Not reasonable
for a period hundreds of years after the discovery of a TL.

>>They're best import may be books and ebooks (along with readers.) They
don't
>>have to invent any of this. They already know how to do it. As in the
>>present societies that refuse to educate their young in science and
>>technology will fail to advance. Which may say more about why low TL
worlds
>>still exist than anything.
>
>True, but it doesn;t just have to be the one that refuse to educate, but
also
>the worlds that lack the resources to educate enough people. One then runs
>into the question of what is the lower limit on people to achieve a certain
>tech level. Is 1000 people enough to sustain a TL15 society?
>

If a world has the people to educate people to maintain TL5 they have the
resources to educate them to maintain TL F. If I'm teaching physics on such
a planet I'm not going to teach TL5 physics. I'm going to teach TL F
physics, just as TL 8 physics is now being taught in third world countries,
not TL3 physics.

1000 people isn't enough to maintain any tech level above stone age without
outside assistance, or even a big enough population to maintain a viable
genetic population for humans.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 15:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 14:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20610.134445.9o4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023744017.4086.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> If the tech isn't "magic", then it's going to take over 32 *megajoules*
> per kilogram to get that satellite up to orbital velocity.

What, you're prejudiced against 'magic' technology?  Traveller CG is clearly
magic.  Anyway, use some form of nuclear power, or beamed power, or (depending
on the energy cost for hovering) even solar power.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 15:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Jun 10 14:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1023737853.1051.ajackson@ping>
References: <200206101349.AA3997932@caddocourt.com>
 <ML-2.3.1023737853.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020610232921.2078aa87.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:
> Hm..and gee, the same handwave for Gyomar.  Guess we have to limit ourselves to
> places like Tondoul (E5136A7-4); 7 million people at TL 4 with only a trace
> atmosphere...

Obviously a society that has degenerated and maintain the life support systems by using technical manuals. They don't have any real idea what that blue button does, but they still press it once every eight hours.

/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 15:29:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Jun 10 14:29:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCECDCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCECDCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20020610232926.6b12c69e.jenry023@student.liu.se>

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Well, as they say, tape measures don't measure distances -- people measure
> distances.

That's a kill. Orange juice keyboard kill confirmed. Seems to be working fine though. I probably managed to stop most of the stuff from getting down to the F1-F8 keys...

LOL

/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 15:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Jun 10 14:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
In-Reply-To: <20020610.134013.-69441.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020610.134013.-69441.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020610233451.76e0552c.jenry023@student.liu.se>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> If a jump field is destroyed (because the frigate exploded), why would
> the debris remain in jump space?
> What's keeping the debris there?

IMTU, it reenters normal space, since the jump bubble is destroyed.

<late night show mode>
Altough ships that disappear completely just might drift intact in jumpspace until this very day, their crews trapped in their former vessel, later tomb...
</late night show mode>

/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 15:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Mon Jun 10 14:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEKFEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206102327511.9736-100000@svati>

On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Terry Carlino wrote:

>>But even if the info is right there in front of them, it doesn;t mean that
>>they necessarily know what that info means. They can educate people to do it,
>>but that could take decades.

>Exactly! And most low TL worlds have been inhabited how many hundreds of
>years? Like I said in another post: All very reasonable for a period
>equivalent to the 1930s in the South Pacific, some 30 to 50 years after the
>technological invention of the auto, aircraft, radio, etc. Not reasonable
>for a period hundreds of years after the discovery of a TL.

That depends on a lot of social factors. If physics and math and engineerin
isn't seen as high priority fields, their ability to teach the subjects
would quickly disintigrate. You would probably see lots of worlds that
on long timescales move up and down the tech level ladder, depending on
their social make up.

>>>They're best import may be books and ebooks (along with readers.) They
>don't
>>>have to invent any of this. They already know how to do it. As in the
>>>present societies that refuse to educate their young in science and
>>>technology will fail to advance. Which may say more about why low TL
>worlds
>>>still exist than anything.
>>
>>True, but it doesn;t just have to be the one that refuse to educate, but
>also
>>the worlds that lack the resources to educate enough people. One then runs
>>into the question of what is the lower limit on people to achieve a certain
>>tech level. Is 1000 people enough to sustain a TL15 society?
>>
>
>If a world has the people to educate people to maintain TL5 they have the
>resources to educate them to maintain TL F. If I'm teaching physics on such
>a planet I'm not going to teach TL5 physics. I'm going to teach TL F
>physics, just as TL 8 physics is now being taught in third world countries,
>not TL3 physics.

This is not true. To know TL F physics you probably have to go through
TL A-E physics first. We currently only teach TL8 or TL9 physics to
a small percentage of the population. The rest of the population is
bein thaught TL5 or TL6 physics. It is just not necessary for everyone to
know about quantum mechanics or even elctromagnitsme. Should those few
people who really knows TL8 or TL9 physics die of, or maybe relocate to some
outside world, it is going to take decades to educate a new generation to
the same level. And I believe that TL F is going to see a lot of experts within
a small field. And getting a person to that level of expertice is a lifetime
achivement, since you need to basically learn everything that came before it.

>1000 people isn't enough to maintain any tech level above stone age without
>outside assistance, or even a big enough population to maintain a viable
>genetic population for humans.

So is there any worlds in the Imperium that has a population in the thousands
and high tech level. If there is the TL-is-manufactured-goods theory cant work.

Cheers
Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 15:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 14:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <002e01c2102b$25d7e820$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20610.140749.8G6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In line with Larsen's commentary may I add this?
>
> A town only a few hours drive from the wired and wireless hub of Seattle
> Washington, my home, just got phone lines last year.
>
> Additional--unconfirmed--I heard the story of a town that ran fiber to
> every house in the town only to have the bundles lie, unconnected,
> behind the local Telco. Seems it hadn't the capability to serve the
> local fiber.

Unlikely. While fiber can carry a lot more circuits than wire, if the
local exchange could handle the load on the wires, switching the load
to fiber wouldn't change the required *capacity* in the phone
switch(es). 

But at both the phone switch and the customer end of the fiber, you
have to replace the "interface" equipment. 

Given the cost of deploying that much fiber, though I can't see them
doing that and *not* upgrading the phone switches to handle it. 

Dealing with fiber to customers gets messier though. Because you have
to figure out how you are going to keep the phones working if power
goes out. With coppper wires, the phone company is providing the power
from the battery banks (and backup generators) at the office. With
fiber, they need to find some other way to keep the phones "live" when
the power lines are down, but the phone lines aren't. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 15:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Jun 10 14:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Atmospheric Pressures and Charcters?
In-Reply-To: <20610.133848.0Y1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020610110926.38ed9a41.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20610.133848.0Y1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020610234248.704a50fd.jenry023@student.liu.se>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> *Deep* dwelling fishes *do* suffer those sorts of effects.

Yes, they are hurt, but they don't explode like humans tend to do when exposed to vacuum in Bad Movies...  ;-)

> You can seal stuff against an atmosphere or so rather easily.
> Especially if it's small. Otherwise "vacuum" packed canisters of various
> things wouldn't be possibly. 

Well, they aren't really possible in the long term...

> Which is why you use a slight *overpressure*. Same idea with clean
> rooms. They are kept at slightly *above* the outside air pressure so
> that leaks are all going *out*. 

Yes, but that really doesn't work when the outside pressure is... say 5-10 atmospheres...  :-)

> This will be a problem if the surrounding atmosphere reacts badly with
> oxygen, nitrogen, CO2, or water. <eg>

MOAHAHA! Hadn't thought of that. Oxygen leaking out into a hydrogen-based atmosphere would be very funny when a metal glove against another strikes a tiny spark...

Or if the ground has high quantities of periodic system group I metals... a tiny amount of water could cause a nice explosion in that case as well...

/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 15:58:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Jun 10 14:58:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Santanocheev
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKECDCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com>
>
>Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>> Recall that Santanocheev was head of INI in the Marches until he
>> became sector admiral; Norris and Santanocheev probably worked
>
>I don't think  Santanocheev  was  head  of  INI  was  he  (except
>indirectly as part of being in  charge  of  IN  in  the  Spinward
>Marches)?  Santanocheev sidelined INI and set up a rival  agency:
>ONI (Office of Naval Information).

Santanocheev was head of INI at least in Regina Subsector.  He set ONI up at
some point, probably after becoming Sector Admiral.  He probably became
Sector admiral in early 1107.

Check the Traveller News Service reports during the war.  Relevant excerpts
follow.  TNS is archived in several places.  These excerpts are from
http://www.stl-online.net/vanya/tns/.

Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 004-1106

In response to queries concerning Major Lorimer's claims, Rear Admiral Lord
Santanocheev, CINCNINT/RS (Commander-in-Chief, Naval Intelligence, Regina
Subsector) today held a press conference during which he claimed that Naval
Intelligence was convinced that there was neither Zhodani or Ine Givar
involvement in the Efate disturbances.

reported at:
http://www.stl-online.net/vanya/tns/1106.html

********************************************************

Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 268-1107
OFFICIAL RELEASE 46-268-1107:

Notwithstanding current military conditions, landing operations or other
activity not specifically sanctioned by the Imperial Naval Department will
not be tolerated at the following worlds: Pscias (Regina 0506), Shionthy
(Regina 0706)), Algine (Regina 0708), Victoria (Lanth 0207), Ylaven (Lanth
0306), Sonthert(Lanth 0308), Djinni (Lanth 0501), and Grant (Jewell 0807).

Subordinate authority for such landings or operations is delegated to fleet
commanders when there is incontrovertible evidence that enemy forces have
landed on such worlds or intend to do so.

Violations of this directive will be severely dealt with.

By order Santanocheev, Sector Admiral.

reported at::
http://www.stl-online.net/vanya/tns/1107.html

********************************************************
This is the first mention of the Office of Naval Intelligence:

Rhylanor/Rhylanor (0306-A434934-F) Date: 338-1108

The TNS has just reports that Heya (Regina 0802) and Beck's World (Regina
0604) have fallen to Vargr forces. This information was obtained from an
anonymous, highly-placed source.

The Office of Naval Intelligence declined to comment, and Army Vice-Marshal
Adam Lord Bryor could not be reached.

reported at::
http://www.stl-online.net/vanya/tns/1108.html

********************************************************

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 16:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Jun 10 15:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <F8t1o85BFrSLtiEaJLi00019e35@hotmail.com>
References: <F8t1o85BFrSLtiEaJLi00019e35@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020611081138.A23068@freeman.little-possums.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Telephone and utility poles are so common that we no longer "see"
> them.  Walk around your neighborhood and count them one day.

Yes, I think this is one area where Australia has doen really well.
With about a twentieth of the population of the US, and similar land
area, IMO Telstra has managed to do one hell of a job of putting in
the infrastructure.

Then of course, after it becomes so common that people consider it a
right rather than a government-subsidised privilege, our fine
politicians open it all up to competitors who can concentrate on the
lucrative links between major population centers and leave Telstra to
maintain cable out to cattle stations 100 km from the nearest town.
Good for the customers in the short term, but I have serious doubts
about the long term.


>      Now look at cell phones and microwave towers.  We put one up
> every 20 km or so.  Bolted steel construction, small shack of
> equipment below, several dishes above.  The labor and costs are
> miniscule when compared to our current land line infrastructure.

The data carrying capacity is also miniscule compared to land-lines.
People keep talking about universal broadband to the home (and failing
to deliver), but you can't even support modem access to more than a
thousand or so sites per microwave link.  True, not everyone *needs*
an internet connection.  Yet.


>      For a low tech world in the Third Imperium, a land line comm
> system would be a luxury, probably limited to secure government and
> military purposes.

I'm not so sure of that.  The costs are almost entirely up-front ones.
It costs a hell of a lot to lay a thousand kilometres of cable.

If you're going to pay that for a government or military line, it
doesn't cost a lot more to put in ten lines (or a hundred) while
you're doing it.  You can multiplex a few thousand channels onto each
line, and charge a few million citizens/organisations/businesses for
using them.  That way, you not only recover the up-front cost, but
also have a continuing source of revenue for maintenance and a healthy
boost to the treasury.  You also reap taxes from any follow-on
economic benefits as well.  Not bad for an extra few percent
investment.  So if there's any land-line comm at all, I'd expect it to
see quite a bit of use.

(Of course, this goes out the window in a non capitalistic society)

To summarise, the up-front cost of land-lines is much greater than
that of cell towers and microwave links, so it's a good way to start.
However, the cost per unit carrying capacity goes up *much* more
rapidly and there are rather hard physical limits, so it's not an
ideal long-term solution despite being "higher tech".


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 16:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Jun 10 15:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  VRF Shotgun?
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKECECEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>I'm suddenly reminded of the army's experiments with miniature recon
drones.
>Some are as small as a robin.  Add a small explosive charge and a guidance
>system and Voila!

In The Dead Pool, the last Dirty Harry movie (which they were showing last
night), there is a chase scene involving a remotely controlled toy car that
is carrying explosives.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 16:20:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon Jun 10 15:20:19 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20610.134445.9o4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEOFHKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


In mail you write:

> Well, one point that gets overlooked regarding using grav vehicles to
> reach orboit is that there's *big* difference between reaching orbital
> (or higher) altitude and achieving orbit.
>
> That grav vehicle not only has to get up to the right altitude, it has
> to be moving at 8 km/sec in the right direction (assuming an earthlike
> planet).
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Why,
>
> As was said, grav tech is cheap.  I think it is likely to assume that
> a commsat has a communicator on board.  given simple navigation
> equipment a small power thruster and enough intelligence in the
> system, it is easy to picture a dump out the airlock system that
> puts itself into the correct orbit.  I hope that he sats don't break
> too often and don't break altogether when they do.  a couple of spares in
> a higher orbit could drop into the correct slot until the broken
> bird is fixed.

Actually, it's easier for the *vehicle* to do the velocity changes.

If the tech isn't "magic", then it's going to take over 32 *megajoules*
per kilogram to get that satellite up to orbital velocity. And the same
to get it slowed down again. That's going to require a fusion plant or
some *really* impressive batteries (which will have to contain
considerably *more* than 64 MJ/kg to have enough power left over for
moving the *rest* of the satellite).

BTW, 64 MJ/kg is over 15 times the energy content of TNT.

And unless the batteries are *really* impressive, most of the mass of
the satellite would be thrusters and batteries.

Oh yeah, at .1 g (a lot more accel than is needed for stationkeeping)
it'd take 2.2 hours to get up to orbital speed.

And finally, if the satellite is doing the moving and the vehicle
isn't, what are you going to do if the problem is that the thrusters or
batteries died? Or the receiver for the commands?

The service vehicle *has* to be able to match velocities with a
satellite that's "dead".

And no, you can't just leave dead satellites up there. They're a hazard
to ships and to other satellites.

> there is enough other expensive stuff that goes into a colony that I think
> level
> would be base line for a colony,  the first level is about on the class 1
> (type e)
> Spaceport would need.

I think you dropped a word. I assume that you mean "level 1" is
baseline.

Maybe. But remember that in Traveller, not all worlds were established
as colonies. Some could be the results of a ship that misjumped into
the system and couldn't be repaired. Others could have been colonies
that got cut off during the Long Night and lost their satellites then.
Still others are "minor" human races planted by the ancients.

And some will be aliens native to the planet.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..

My bad, I meant level one. though the long night is far enough
in the past that I should think that new satellites are up.
Minor races and crash survivors can buy 'em probably thorough
fund funneled through the ISS.  Besides I doubt if those two form
all that great a number of cases.

When I said 'drop out he airlock', I was thinking in terms of
the delivering spacecraft or what have you dropping them off in
orbit with roughly the correct velocity, the com sats then use
low power thrusters to get to proper station and maintain it,
 this simplifies the delivery process.  I'm thinking in terms
of small low power unit, basically slightly souped up versions
of the station keepers you'd need anyway.

The replacement satellite that drops in to replace a broken comm sat
fills the coverage hole,  I would assume that someone would go up a grab
that satellite to repair it.  this way, if for some reason it doesn't
happen at that instant, coverage can be maintained.

jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 16:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 15:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <20020610232921.2078aa87.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023747932.2749.ajackson@ping>

Jens Rydholm writes:
> Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:
> > Hm..and gee, the same handwave for Gyomar.  Guess we have to limit
> > ourselves to places like Tondoul (E5136A7-4); 7 million people at TL 4
> > with only a trace atmosphere...
> 
> Obviously a society that has degenerated and maintain the life support
> systems by using technical manuals. They don't have any real idea what that
blue button does, but they still press it once every eight hours. 

And five years later it hits its mean time between major failures, has a
catestrophic breakdown, and everyone dies.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 16:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 15:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
References: <20610.133745.0p3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3D052861.5040601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
> 
> 
>>Kelly St.Clair wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>The only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do
>>>>naught.
>>>
>>>
>>>Um... the metric system (and/or advocation of same) is evil now?
>>
>>Of COURSE it is, all those damn furriners use it...prolly a Commie Plot 
>>to poison our Precious Bodily Fluids.
> 
> 
> Ahem.
> 
> The metric system has been legal in the US for over 200 years. 
> 

I know I know, and had Jefferson had his way, we wouldn't be having this 
discussion anyway...at least he prevailed with our monetary system...

Guess I needed to put in the <sarcasm></s> tags...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 16:33:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Jun 10 15:33:06 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
Message-ID: <F36vz6udwWNBoOeBkOb0001b8da@hotmail.com>

From: generalturokan@juno.com

     "If a jump field is destroyed (because the frigate exploded), why would 
the debris remain in jump space?  What's keeping the debris there?"


General,

     Now we're getting into MTU/YTU territory.  Hold on, it's going to be a 
bumpy ride...
     Remember how I said the jump masking and jump limit boundary phenomena 
imply a one-to-one mapping connection between jump space and normal space?  
And remember that Mr. Miller's articles have flatly stated that this mapping 
does exist?  Okay, keeping those two statements in mind, you can imagine 
every point in jump space has a corresponding point in normal space.  Got 
it?
     Now imagine placing a cube of steel in the airlock of a vessel in jump 
space.  We then cycle the airlock and blow the cube out of the vessel.  The 
cube will then pass through the vessel's jump field.  Does that mean that 
the cube will simply appear at some point in normal space?
     My answer is no, of course YMMV.
     If items can be "thrown out" of a jump field only to reappear in normal 
space and if there is a one-to-one mapping between normal and jump space, 
then we have a very nifty weapon indeed.  A weapon that cannot be defended 
against.
     Fill a ship with smart bombs, plot a jump course that passes by your 
target, and, at the proper time, shovel all the bombs out of your cargo bay. 
  The bombs would then appear out of no where and slag your target without 
warning.
     Because that type of an attack as never been described in Traveller, 
I'd believe that it cannnot work.  Thus, items passing through a jump field 
don't simply "drop out" of jump space.
     Try looking at jump fields differently.  A jump field doesn't KEEP 
objects IN jump space, instead a jump field PROTECTS objects FROM jump 
space.  If an object passes through a jump field, or if a jump field 
collapses, the object is no longer protected from jump space and the weird 
physics of that dimension.  The object is then destroyed or transformed or 
converted into something that can exist within that dimension.  There is 
nothing left that can exist in or is from the dimension of normal space.  
There is nothing left to "fall out" of jump space.
     A clumsy analogy would be the "bubble" of air submarine crews work and 
live in while underwater, remove the "bubble" and they can no longer exist.  
A submarine's hull contains and protects that "bubble" from the surrounding 
water.  Likewise, a jump field contains and protects a "bubble" of normal 
space from the surrounding jump space dimension so that a vessel can 
continue to exist.
     Not much of an answer I'm afraid.  As I said at the beginning, it's 
very much a MTU/YTU thing.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 16:36:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 10 15:36:15 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206102327511.9736-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <B92A77D2.5E4BF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/10/02 2:39 PM, Tommy Grav at tommy.grav@astro.uio.no wrote:
> 
> This is not true. To know TL F physics you probably have to go through
> TL A-E physics first. We currently only teach TL8 or TL9 physics to
> a small percentage of the population. The rest of the population is
> bein thaught TL5 or TL6 physics. It is just not necessary for everyone to
> know about quantum mechanics or even elctromagnitsme. Should those few
> people who really knows TL8 or TL9 physics die of, or maybe relocate to some
> outside world, it is going to take decades to educate a new generation to
> the same level. And I believe that TL F is going to see a lot of experts
> within
> a small field. And getting a person to that level of expertice is a lifetime
> achivement, since you need to basically learn everything that came before it.
> 

Umm.  That's why we keep knowledge in books.  With learning so widely
distributed in printed form, it's unlike to be lost.  And books are
amazingly portable, and can function at very low tech levels.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 16:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 10 15:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20610.140749.8G6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B92A78D2.5E4C0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/10/02 3:07 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

> 
> Unlikely. While fiber can carry a lot more circuits than wire, if the
> local exchange could handle the load on the wires, switching the load
> to fiber wouldn't change the required *capacity* in the phone
> switch(es). 

Whenever we were running new wire, we always ran fiber at the same time,
even if we weren't going to use it right away.  Installing the wire runs is
usually one of the more costly parts of the project, and it doesn't cost
much more to add fiber to a run that is already going to have copper.
> 
> But at both the phone switch and the customer end of the fiber, you
> have to replace the "interface" equipment.
> 
> Given the cost of deploying that much fiber, though I can't see them
> doing that and *not* upgrading the phone switches to handle it.
> 
> Dealing with fiber to customers gets messier though. Because you have
> to figure out how you are going to keep the phones working if power
> goes out. With coppper wires, the phone company is providing the power
> from the battery banks (and backup generators) at the office. With
> fiber, they need to find some other way to keep the phones "live" when
> the power lines are down, but the phone lines aren't.

I don't know of any POTS customer (non-business) that uses fiber directly.
I have fiber to the curb, but plain old copper in my house.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 16:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Mon Jun 10 15:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92A77D2.5E4BF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206110050300.9736-100000@svati>

On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

>> This is not true. To know TL F physics you probably have to go through
>> TL A-E physics first. We currently only teach TL8 or TL9 physics to
>> a small percentage of the population. The rest of the population is
>> bein thaught TL5 or TL6 physics. It is just not necessary for everyone to
>> know about quantum mechanics or even elctromagnitsme. Should those few
>> people who really knows TL8 or TL9 physics die of, or maybe relocate to some
>> outside world, it is going to take decades to educate a new generation to
>> the same level. And I believe that TL F is going to see a lot of experts
>> within
>> a small field. And getting a person to that level of expertice is a lifetime
>> achivement, since you need to basically learn everything that came before it.
>
>Umm.  That's why we keep knowledge in books.  With learning so widely
>distributed in printed form, it's unlike to be lost.  And books are
>amazingly portable, and can function at very low tech levels.

I agree with that, but because something is in a book, doesn't mean that you
or I understand what is in there. My point is that unless the goverment works
to stay at a certain TL, they will quickly start down the road to decline.
This in my view means that TL5 soceities within the Imperium is areas were
the knowledge is available, but nobody around really understand what it means.
It is going to take decades, maybe even centuries before they can get enough
people educated to create an industry maintaining higher tech level goods, and
it is going to cost a budle in moeny and resources, especially human resources.

>Tod L Glenn

Cheers
Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 17:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 16:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <E17HJvT-0005b6-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20610.145334.8t2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

> I like the idea of TL 5 steamships with satphones and GPS.  Then 
> again, there are currently small cargo ships sailing (with sails) 
> regular runs between East Africa and India, which have GPS 
> receivers and radios.  I'm fairly certain that many low tech worlds 
> look lots like that ship.    

No doubt. <g>

> I'm guessing the only low-tech worlds w/o good GPS systems are 
> balkanized worlds with ongoing wars, where each side shoots 
> down the other's satellites.

Actually, I expect that if the satellites were provided by outsiders,
shooting down satellites will be a *bad* idea. While you can knock down
low orbit satellites with V2 level technology, defending against simple
kinetic kill munitions such as even a free trader could improvise
requires *much* higher tech. 

Knock out the satellites and get a couple of multi-ton rocks dropped on
your launch site or C&C installations by a pissed off Free Trader. At
11 km/sec they'll make nice holes. 

> OTOH, satphones may be somewhat rarer, since authoritarian low-
> tech governments won't necessarily want their populace able to 
> talk so easily.  It's a simple matter to control large vehicle and 
> room-mounted comm units, but pocket-sized ones are ideal tools 
> for rebels and dissidents.  However, on low-tech worlds w/o 
> repressive or paranoid governments, I'm betting that most members 
> of the upper class have sat phones (but almost no one else would 
> have them).

Actually, if the government in question pays for it, they can have the
satellites relay real-time copies of all conversations to a ground
station. For extra, they can get *selective* surviellance. 
  
>> 3. "Full"
>> 
>> Full setup, geosync, sat phone, weather, survey, etc *and* extra
>> satellites/stations at other locations to provide sensor coverage of
>> the 100 diameter limit and beyond, as well as space traffic control
>> functions.
>
> OTOH, I'm guessing this level of sophistication is pretty much the 
> mark of a world with a local TL of 9 or more.  

Actually, I'd say C or better port, with moderate traffic. And TL 7 or
better worlds could do it almost on their own. They might have to buy a
modular cutter or the like to *get* stugff to orbit, but by TL 7 they'd
have no trouble building and maintaining such a setup on their own, as
long as they had the cutter for servicing and deploying the satellites.

Heck, given the cutter, a TL *6* world could do it. They'd just have to
use bigger/clunkier electronics. 

TL 5 is a bit iffy. 

>> There could be more "levels" but I think this is a good enough
>> starting place.
>
> Agreed, I like these levels a lot.
>
> Once again, a discussion of Traveller tech levels and what sorts of 
> things will almost certainly be found on low tech worlds (like 
> satphones for the rich) needs to be in some new Traveller 
> supplement or other.  I wonder if Loren would be interested in such 
> a piece?

Some day, I'm going to locate all the old posts from the various
incarnations of the list, then go thru and combine my various "essays"
that get repeated so often into a series of web pages. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 17:13:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 16:13:24 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206100227570.9736-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <20610.152338.5v0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Sun, 9 Jun 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>>The odds are rather large that nobody on the ship knows much more than
>>can be found in a good library, which will be *woefully* inadequate.
>>It'll take *years* of work to get it right.
>
> I believe this is the key factor to the differnce in tech levels in
> the Imperium. The info might be avaibel on each and every world in
> the Imperium, but the level of knowledge within a population on a
> world severly limits what the world kan produce and maintain.
>
> There is many reasons wy a world wouldn't be able to "read" up
> on the evertyhing that is needed to be on the TL15 level, most of
> them social. The available info means however that the road from a
> lower tech level to TL15 would be much faster than it would take to do
> everything through research and development.

Keep in mind that unless a book is *intended* to teach you how to
actually *do* something *without expereienced assistance*, it'll skip a
lot of "irrelevant" details. 

As an example, I damn near *killed* myself trying to make a chemical
based on an (incomplete) reaction chain in an organic chem textbook. 

This is why fresh college graduates in science and engineering nedd
some time under experienced people on real jobs before you can turn
them loose. 

There's often a *considerable* gap between theory and practice.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 17:13:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 16:13:48 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <000f01c21091$45ec1f80$ac00a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <20610.155330.6J2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> >>Don't forget that those phones are useless unless somone puts in the
>> >>hundred or more satellites required to support them. And a facility to
>> >>*maintain* said satellites.
>> >>
>> > That number of satellites is based on low Earth orbit. If placed in a
> higher
>> > orbit less satellites would be required.
>>
>> But the phones would require more power and larger antennas. that's
>> *why* they are in low orbit. To keep the size of the *phones* down.
>
> Er, maybe this is a dumb idea, but given cheap reliable grav  and
> power why not have high-altitude comm 'satellites'  ...  or  even
> not so high.  Easier to 'install'  than  microwave  towers  (just
> uncrate it and program in its designated cell location,  id,  and
> frequencies).  Have a few co-located in each cell with a rota  of
> returning to base for recharging and  optional  maintenance.  And
> with  a  mechanical  failsafe  parachute  system   in   case   of
> catastrophic failure  its  probably  safer  than  a  conventional
> orbital satellite (if that fails you can loose track of it as  it
> becomes part of the space junk 'minefield').  Your phones can  be
> small and low-powered, and your satellite doesn't have to get  up
> to orbital speeds.  Or is this really dumb?

Thing is, at high altitudes, they are subject to wind and weather. 

And you need to use *power* to keep them up, as well as to hold
position.

In orbit they occasionally need a small nudge. Easily done with a
thruster and (probably) solar power.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 17:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Mon Jun 10 16:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <20020610214105.F0C0927A8E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206110110560.31289-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Anthony Jackson writes:

>Given the existence of the long night, it's doubtful that anything short of a
>Hi-pop world can support a high TL society without trade, and even the Hi-pop
>worlds had pretty serious troubles.

That reminds me of something I've been trying to figure out. For each tech
level, what is the minimum size of the population needed to maintain it?

Obviously anything above historical tech levels will be mere guesswork,
but I'd still like to know what people think. For instance, is a small
family with a TTL 10 Mobile Fabrication Facility a TL 10 society?



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 17:30:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Jun 10 16:30:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
Message-ID: <200206102329.IEL01489@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Fred Ramen" says
>Me, I wonder if we might extrapolate from the diversity of 
>tech levels in Charted Space a culture not as in love with 
>the ideal of Progress as our own 21st century Western one. 

<snip>

One may indeed wonder.  Ever wonder why nations that try to 
buy fairly late model radar (French), artillery (South 
African), and tanks (Russian) end up wasting their money on 
what are essentially targets?  Iraq found out that there's 
more to an infrastructure to support the logistical tail - 
there's a whole suit of clothes that comes with knowing how 
to strategically and tactically "use" the 
technology "together".  A T-72 makes a nice target if it's 
working all by itself (or without integrated air cover, or 
integrated infantry support, etc.).

On the other hand, the basic concepts contained in the AK-47 
were laid down by German engineers and further roughened and 
simplified by Russians.  It's a TL 6 weapon, and I would bet 
any amount of money that like the stamped sheet metal 
submachinegun, it will be with us far into the future (now 
here's where Tod steps in and says the shotgun will also..  
I'm not trying to make a gun point, it's a tech level point).

These weapons can be made by fairly uneducated people in 
backwater areas.  I'm not sure a laser rifle could be made 
from scratch under similar circumstances, nor sold so 
cheaply.  And it kills unarmored people dead, just as well 
(some would say better) than a laser rifle.

All of the later high tech thingies come with contracts, 
logistical tail, and an intended "synergy".  

To haul cargo from one place to another, I don't need a 
guided missile cruiser, and having all that equipment and 
radar would be a great initial expense, a crew expense, and a 
maintenance expense, leading to possible legal expenses.  A 
nice old freighter with decent engines should do the trick, 
and if she's got a few rusty spots on the hull, well...  no 
one ever moved the stars closer or farther apart in my 
lifetime.  The trip to the next system is a fixed distance, 
and I don't need a ship that exceeds that capacity.  Along a 
route such as the Spinward Main, I would expect most ships to 
be old rust buckets with no weapons (there is that old plasma 
gun that one of the Marines insisted on bolting on to the 
hull, but I'm getting off the ship before they touch it off).
________________
"Yes, it's your fault this time.  You had your chance the first time around to donate to the Anakin Skywalker Acting Fund."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 17:31:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 10 16:31:13 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
Message-ID: <20020610.162853.-69441.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

Gentlemen,

On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:32:57 +0000 "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
>On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 23:34:51 +0200 Jens Rydholm
<jenry023@student.liu.se> writes:
>

Thank you for YTU input to MTU questions.

It indeed is interesting, and I'll give it some further thought before
desiding how I'll handle it.

Thanks again,

Turokan

..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 17:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 10 16:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206110050300.9736-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <B92A8546.5E524%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/10/02 3:55 PM, Tommy Grav at tommy.grav@astro.uio.no wrote:

> 
> I agree with that, but because something is in a book, doesn't mean that you
> or I understand what is in there. My point is that unless the goverment works
> to stay at a certain TL, they will quickly start down the road to decline.

Snort.  If we depended on the government of the US to maintain tech level,
we'd be reading by candle light.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 17:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Jun 10 16:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
Message-ID: <200206102340.IEL03127@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  asks
>To begin:
>A fleet has entered jump space staggered in groups ie: 
>scouts, then frigates, then etc, all perhaps minutes apart 
>for each group.
>
>The situation:
>A frigate mis-jumps and rolls destroyed.
>
>Question:
>Could the destroyed frigate cause the remaining fleet ships 
>behind the frigate to be forced out of jump space to normal 
>space?


If you roll destroyed, you just never come out of j-space, so 
there's no debris field.  

I've always felt that the Traveller jump was strongly based 
on the Pournelle idea of jump/Alderson tramlines.  In that j-
space, you never see outside the ship, or see other vessels.

I think that since you're on the same tramline, however, that 
something should happen (but tramlines aren't canon - it's 
just my opinion that the "plain and fancy they" got most of 
their idea from the Alderson jump drive (Mote in God's Eye, 
the various CoDominium stories).

Having watched too much B-5 for my own good, I really wish 
that jumpspace worked the B-5 way in Traveller, but that 
would change the whole game in a rather big way.
________________
"Yes, it's your fault this time.  You had your chance the first time around to donate to the Anakin Skywalker Acting Fund."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 17:43:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 16:43:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206110110560.31289-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023752545.2767.ajackson@ping>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen writes:
> 
> That reminds me of something I've been trying to figure out. For each tech
> level, what is the minimum size of the population needed to maintain it?

Without assistance?  Up to TL 8, figure a minimum pop code of (TL/2 + 3). 
Beyond this it's pure guesswork, but making plausible estimates of ancient
Darrian and Sabmiqys, a pop code of 10-11 should be enough for TL 16-17, so
simply continuing the curve above isn't too bad.
> 
> Obviously anything above historical tech levels will be mere guesswork,
> but I'd still like to know what people think. For instance, is a small
> family with a TTL 10 Mobile Fabrication Facility a TL 10 society?

Maybe, but it's not a self-sustaining TL 10 society; eventually that fabricator
will run out of parts and/or specialized materials and will not be fixable
based on available materials.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 17:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Jun 10 16:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Greg Bear and a language digression
Message-ID: <200206102351.IEL04743@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Rob Davenport and Leonard Erickson converse about the universe
>Subject: [TML] re: Greg Bear and a language digression  
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>> I haven't read the book, but from various references I've 
>> seen, the basic idea is equivalent to the universe being a 
>> big computer program.
>> And they tweak the parameters governing a given "object" 
>> in the "dataspace".
>>

I'm sorry -- the idea is much older than that.  Maimonides, 
in The Guide For The Perplexed, written in the 13th Century, 
goes well out of his way to define "what is an object" 
and "what is an instance", and how we define their attributes 
and behaviors.  The definitions are extremely clear to anyone 
who is currently a programmer - in fact, it was a shock to 
read.  Just to let you know - Maimonides concludes that there 
is no "instance" or instantiated object that is "God".  But, 
there is an "abstraction of all abstractions", or the root 
abstraction, and he says that's where you'll find God.  But 
we're instances (instantiated objects).  He comes within a 
hair's breadth of saying "pointer", which would take us 
straight to the idea of doing pointer math to move us around.
________________
"Yes, it's your fault this time.  You had your chance the first time around to donate to the Anakin Skywalker Acting Fund."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 17:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Jun 10 16:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
Message-ID: <200206102358.IEL05680@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Eris Reddoch" says
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Map Generation  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>On 06/10/02 at 10:53 AM,  Bruce Johnson 
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>said:
>
>>Kelly St.Clair wrote:
>
>>>> The only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good 
men to do
>>>> naught.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Um... the metric system (and/or advocation of same) is 
evil now?
>
>>Of COURSE it is, all those damn furriners use it...prolly a 
Commie
>>Plot  to poison our Precious Bodily Fluids.
>
>Nah!  It's much older than that.  It's an insidious Frenchy 
plot, and
>although they keep losing wars, the Frog's appear to be 
winning this
>one.
>

One fine German morning in the 1980s, a Pershing missile 
platoon rolled out, and as security squad leader, I decided 
to carry the M-60 instead of my usual rifle.  I purchased a 
great golf club bag, put the weapon AND tripod in it, and 
even found room for two belts in the roomy side pouches.  I 
even had a knit wood cover which I managed to stretch over 
the butt of the M-60. 

The entire joke was lost on the platoon sergeant, but the 
lieutenant got it.  No one seemed to mind, as it seemed a 
practical way to lug it around in a truck.
________________
"Yes, it's your fault this time.  You had your chance the first time around to donate to the Anakin Skywalker Acting Fund."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 17:59:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Mon Jun 10 16:59:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: high tech vs. low tech
In-Reply-To: <20020610233152.7693B27AAC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206110148130.31289-100000@ask.diku.dk>

John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> writes:
>...the long night is far enough in the past that I should think that new
>satellites are up. Minor races and crash survivors can buy 'em probably
>thorough fund funneled through the ISS.

The imperium is not really in the business of giving things away, is it?
Of course, I can easily imagine situations where the Imperium might loan
or give a world money to buy a sattelite network, but in general I think
an Imperial world gets only what it can afford to buy.

>Besides I doubt if those two form all that great a number of cases.

A more numerous group will be colonies that lose part of most of their
technology early on due to insufficient manpower and equipment. Such a
world could take many generations to recover on its own.




Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 18:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Jun 10 17:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
Message-ID: <200206110000.IEL05988@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>Well, intermediate; an M1 costs a bit more than an FGMP.  
>Still, it's at least equivalent to buying a 20mm cannon or 
>some such.
>_______________________________________________

If we were citizens of Switzerland, and neighbors in the same 
unit, we could apply for a government-backed loan to buy a 
MILAN anti-tank missile complete with thermal sight.
________________
"Yes, it's your fault this time.  You had your chance the first time around to donate to the Anakin Skywalker Acting Fund."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 18:06:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 17:06:19 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <200206110000.IEL05988@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023753939.9084.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> If we were citizens of Switzerland, and neighbors in the same 
> unit, we could apply for a government-backed loan to buy a 
> MILAN anti-tank missile complete with thermal sight.

And in the traveller equivalent of Switzerland, you might be able to buy an
FGMP under similar circumstances.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 18:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Mon Jun 10 17:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: high tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20020610233152.7693B27AAC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206110200250.31289-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Leonard Erickson writes:

>Knock out the satellites and get a couple of multi-ton rocks dropped on
>your launch site or C&C installations by a pissed off Free Trader. At
>11 km/sec they'll make nice holes.

Oooh, Leonard, that is going to hurt. Hurt the Free Trader, I mean. I
think using kinetic kill missiles is one of the few ways to make the
Imperium pissed enough to actively hunt you down. Granted, it doesn't SAY
so anywhere, but I think it will rank up there with using nuclear weapons
on the Imperium's list of don'ts.

Be that as it may, the Free Trader is going to have to know where the
launch site is. Easy enough if they happen to be orbiting on the same side
of the world during the launch, more difficult if they're in another
system at the time.



Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 18:11:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 10 17:11:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <20020610233155.DC2C627AAD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17HZEV-00029Q-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:

> Anthony Jackson writes:
> 
> >Given the existence of the long night, it's doubtful that anything
> >short of a Hi-pop world can support a high TL society without trade,
> >and even the Hi-pop worlds had pretty serious troubles.
> 
> That reminds me of something I've been trying to figure out. For each
> tech level, what is the minimum size of the population needed to
> maintain it?

It all depends upon what you mean by "maintain".  There are a 
good number of TL 13-15 worlds with populations in the 0-1,000 
range, so by at least one definition of TL (the official one) they can 
exist and maintain themselves.

However, I think we all agree that almost all of those world require 
external inputs.

OTOH, at TL 12+ robots become increasingly common.  I could 
easily imagine a perfectly self-sustaining world with a population of 
maybe between 100,000+ (or at most 1,000,000+) that maintained 
TL 15 w/o aid simply by virtue to the fact that it was extensively 
automated.  Robot mining craft, robot factories, repair bots to fix 
broken robots and a few thousand highly trained humans to monitor 
and control the system and to troubleshoot any problems the 
robots can't fix on their own.  OTOH, I can't see any way for 
population 0-2 worlds to be even remotely self-sufficient at anything 
above TL 1. 

I'd say off the cuff that any world with a population of 0-3 is not self-
sufficient, and that any TL 12+ world with a population of 5+ is 
likely to be self-sufficient.  I'm guessing you could maintain a TL 5-
11 worlds with a population of 10,000,000+, but with fewer that that 
(and definitely with fewer than a million people, I can't see any way 
to support such a world w/o automation of a higher TL than it 
possesses.

As an additional data point, the Darrians managed to both go from 
TL3 to TL 10 (with the help of a few thousand Solomani refugees) 
while inhabiting only one world (this process took less than 200 
years, without any additional external aid) and to go from TL 10 to 
TL 16 with fairly minimal trade (their colony worlds were simply too 
small to provide much aid).  So, a population of 9 can clearly 
maintain TL 16 9 (as long they don't mess with their own sun :)

Comments?

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 18:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 17:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <E17HZEV-00029Q-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023754556.2225.ajackson@ping>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:


> OTOH, at TL 12+ robots become increasingly common.  I could 
> easily imagine a perfectly self-sustaining world with a population of 
> maybe between 100,000+ (or at most 1,000,000+) that maintained 
> TL 15 w/o aid simply by virtue to the fact that it was extensively 
> automated.

While this is possible, I suspect it's very unlikely, because the required
capital investment per person is unreasonably high.  Just because something
_can_ be done doesn't mean it _will_ be done.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 18:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 17:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: high tech vs. low tech
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206110148130.31289-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3D0542B9.80905@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> writes:
> 
>>...the long night is far enough in the past that I should think that new
>>satellites are up. Minor races and crash survivors can buy 'em probably
>>thorough fund funneled through the ISS.
> 
> 
> The imperium is not really in the business of giving things away, is it?
> Of course, I can easily imagine situations where the Imperium might loan
> or give a world money to buy a sattelite network, but in general I think
> an Imperial world gets only what it can afford to buy.

If it bootstraps a world of happy consumers to higher disposable 
incomes? Oh, yeah! I'm sure that many Megacorps will *happily* give a 
world the handle of comsats in order to sell the razor blades of phone 
service...that brings in monthly, ongoing income, for not much in 
maintenance costs...;-) In traveller terms comm satellites are *cheap*.

Even places too poor to buy comsats can probably pony up enough for 
monthly phone service, and merchants always like to have commo handy 
when trading.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 18:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 17:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS TL vs Traveller TL
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023755656.6838.ajackson@ping>

The current argument over the 'meaning' of TL made me dig this out.  It does
use a primarily economic meaning for TL, in that low-tech worlds have enough
less money that using low-tech goods makes sense, but it also seemed like
something people might find interesting.

I sent this a few minutes ago and my mailer bugged out; hopefully there's no
duplication.

            Matching the Classic Traveller Tech Tree in GURPS

                        Explaining the Problem

GURPS Traveller represents a valiant attempt to convert the Traveller setting
into the GURPS mechanics.  Unfortunately, that doesn't mean it's perfect.

The GURPS tech system was never really designed for a multi-TL setting in
which there is regular trade between regions of different TLs.  It can be
done, but the effects are occasionally odd.  For example, electronic 
devices are usually both half price and half cost after one TL, and 
1/4 after two.  Given the exchange rates in Far Trader, this implies 
that any sane GTL 10 world will prefer to import GTL 12 products rather
than use GTL 10 products.  This isn't canonical; most worlds in Traveller
apparently prefer to mostly use local products.  However, in order to make
the use of local products rational, the exchange rates can't be anywhere
near the Far Trader values; simply negating the cost advantage of higher
TL implies an exchange rate of 4:1 between 10 and 12, and negating the
quality advantage as well implies an exchange rate of somewhere above 10:1.

In many ways, that's realistic for a 2 TL difference; using the World
Bank definitions, if 'high income' (developed nations) are TL 7, one can
pretty reasonably argue for 'upper middle income' (e.g. Brazil) states at
TL 6, 'lower middle income' (e.g. the Philippines) at TL 5, and 'low income'
(e.g. most of sub-saharan africa) at TL 4-, and the per capita GNP ratio
between high income and lower middle income really is around 10:1.  However,
Traveller canon doesn't imply anywhere near that much difference in wealth
and power between TTL 15 worlds and TTL 12 worlds.  For that matter, I'm
not sure if the difference between Regina and Rhylanor is really equivalent
to the difference between 1900 and 2000; I'd think more like 1960 vs 2000.

That would put TTL12-15 as a single tech level in GURPS.  However, aside 
from conflicting with the assumptions of Traveller players, is this really
that bad? There are ways of creating distinctions within a single TL,
and the truth is, there are many GTL 11+ technologies that are vastly
inappropriate for Traveller.
                    
                    What TL is the Imperium, Really?

If you look at available Traveller tech vs GURPS tech, the maximum TL of
the Imperium does not appear to be 12.  Running through common equipment
types, we find:

Armor and Materials: The best armor in Classic Traveller is bonded
superdense, with 14x the DR per unit thickness of steel, and about 8x
per unit weight.  That's equivalent to a mass multiplier of .07, which
is similar to GTL 10 advanced metal at .06.  Material Tech: 10.

Biotech and Medicine: Traveller isn't historically big on biotech; there's
little evidence of genetic engineering, so the GTL could be as low as 7.
The exception is the terrans uplifting apes and dolphins, which sounds 
like GTL 10 or so.  Traveller medical tech, on the other hand, is pretty
good; with the exception of instaskill (GTL 11) most of the wonder drugs
in UltraTech look reasonable, giving an overall GTL of about 10.  One can
argue for GTL 9; Traveller drugs tend to have nasty side effects, and
biotech is not exactly common.

Computers: Classic Traveller computers are quite primitive, at roughly 
GTL 7.  However, CT also had robots; it didn't have AI, but it had 
advanced near-AI computers and computers could become spontaneously
sentient.  This sounds like GTL 9.

Drives/Gravetics: CT space drives are largely equivalent to GTL 11
reactionless thrusters; thruster plates were later set at TL11.  CT
contragrav is more like a thruster plate variant than the amazing 
performance GTL12 contragravity, so the average GTL is probably 11.
GTL11 includes some force field tech that's vaguely gravity-related
(deflectors, force weapons) but inappropriate for Traveller.

Electronics and Stealth: Traveller doesn't have intruder chameleon or
holobelts, and doesn't really have anything quite like a multiscanner,
though neural activity sensors and densitometers have some similarity. 
On the other hand, it does have instant chameleon, various forms of
stealth, pretty good personal sensors, and the like.  It doesn't have
neutrino comms, though it does have meson comms which are similar if
vastly larger.  This sounds mostly similar to GTL9.

Exotics: black globes are a primitive and poorly understood force field;
since a normal spaceship force field is GTL11, this sounds like a TL 10
prototype of a TL 11 system.  Nuclear Dampers are GTL15, putting them well
outside the range of any other Traveller tech, but Traveller dampers are
quite large.  Meson weapons and screens are a Traveller-specific oddity
with no obvious GTL, but the GT rules for them are not obvious bad.

Power: energy densities in Classic Traveller were on the order of 250
megawatts per dton; by Fire, Fusion, and Steel this dropped to around
80 megawatts per dton.  Including fuel volume, the actual energy density
is on the order of 40 megawatts per dton, and around 2 megawatts per ton
mass.  GTL10 fusion is 40 megawatts per dton (and has no fuel requirement),
10 megawatts per ton mass, which seems to be in the same ballpark at least. 
GTL11 has antimatter, which is explicitly beyond Imperial tech, but not
that far, so GTL10 is probably correct.

Weapons: meson weapons have no exact equivalent in GURPS, nor do fusion
weapons (the GURPS fusion gun is a gravetic device which is not exactly
equivalent to the Traveller weapon), though the standard GT assumption
that a fusion gun is a compact plasma weapon is somewhat plausible.  All
other weapons in Traveller are available by GTL 10 (X-ray lasers), and there
are GTL 10-11 weapons (such as paralysis beams and force blades) that are
not canon for Traveller.  Once again, GTL10 seems about right.

Overall, it looks like the maximum GTL of the imperium is usually 10, 
rising to around 11 in gravetics, and down to around 9 in electronics
and biotechnology.

                       Applying Tech Level to Prices

As discussed above, a difference of one GURPS TL makes a lot of difference
in value.  This can be handled by exchange rates, but produces a few weird
effects, and is confusing.  My solution is fairly simple: list all prices
in Imperial credits, which are considered to be prices on the interstellar
market.  For GTL10 equipment, use the list cost; for lower tech equipment
(note: this means the item is actually built to lower-tech specs), multiply
cost by 0.3 for GTL9 equipment, 0.1 for GTL8 equipment, and 0.05 for GTL7 
or lower equipment.  Thus, for example, an ACR (GTL9, $1,274) is actually
Cr 380, while a gauss rifle (GTL10, $3,029) remains at Cr 3,029.

These prices are in Imperial Credits, which is usually workable enough.
However, on a world with relatively low trade, many imported items may 
be hard to find, or at a substantial markup; on a world that wants more
trade, the buying power of Imperial Credits may be increased (on the 
minus side, CrI may be rather difficult to obtain).  The degree to which
this is true is up to the GM, though in general the effects should be more
visible on worlds that are low population or low tech.  Worlds with low
grade starports will usually have quite limited supplies of CrI, but may
not be very interested in acquiring more.

For worlds in the interstellar community, per capita production may be
estimated per the table below.  Note that one CrI should be interpreted
as around $20 in modern currency, making a TL 7 world similar to a modern
western state, and a TL 15 world immensely rich by modern standards.
TTL     0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10  11  12  13  14  15  16
GTL     1-3 4   5   5   5   6   6   7   8   9   9   9   10  10  10  10  11
CrI     25  50  100 150 200 300 500 1k  2k  3k  4k  6k  8k  11k 15k 20k 30k

                    What Goods are Available at What TL

While Traveller TLs from 12 to 15 are fundamentally the same TL in GURPS,
there is some distinction in Traveller.  This is handled by limiting which
GTL 10 technologies are actually available.  The normal rules are as follows:

At TL 16, all GTL 10 options are available; a reasonable subset of GTL 11 
equipment is available at 4x cost.

At TTL 15, all GTL 10 options are available.  GTL11 regular and super thrusters
are available.  Fusion power uses GTL10 stats, but is double cost ($100/lb). 
Prototype GTL 11 devices may exist (as per TTL 16), but are not on the
general market, and generally cannot be purchased.

At TTL 14, power plant size increases by 50%, cost is multiplied by .75
($50/lb).  Meson communicators are unavailable, meson weapons are limited
to 100T weapon bays.  Genius computers are not available.  Max jump is 5,
max G-comp is 5.

At TTL 13, advanced armor and structural materials are unavailable; personal
armor should be limited to TL 9 equipment.  Electronic devices must be
purchased 'cheap', with doubled size and half cost; many other components
should also be cheap.  Max jump is 4, max G-comp is 4.  Fusion weapons are
only available as large weapons (6,400 kilojoules and above).

At TTL 12, X-ray lasers are unavailable, max jump is 3, max G-comp is 3.
Power plant size is doubled, cost is halved ($25/lb).  Meson guns are only
available as spinal mounts.

At TTL 11, most equipment is only available with GTL9 stats (but use the
normal 30% cost modifier for GTL9 equipment).  GTL11 regular, but not super,
thrusters remain available.  Fusion plants with TTL12 stats remain available
through TTL 9.  Max jump is 2, max G-comp is 2.

At TTL 10, thrusters are no longer available, but contragravity is.

At TTL 9, advanced GTL9 materials are no longer available; personal armor
should use GTL8 stats, at the normal 10% of cost.  Plasma weapons are no
longer available.

                        Specialized Traveller Tech

Contragravity (TTL9)

Contragravity is the lower-tech equivalent to reactionless thrusters; a CG
drive has twice the thrust of an equivalent reactionless drive, but is
limited to a total thrust of 200% of the local gravitational field.
Available as regular thrusters at TTL9, super thrusters at TTL12.

Meson Guns (TTL11)

Meson weapons have twice the cost of a particle beam of the same TL, and are
otherwise identical.

Meson Screens (TTL12)

Meson screens are force field variants that protect from meson weapons.
Weight is (DR * area)/10,000,000 tons, price is $2 million per ton,
power consumption is 40 megawatts per ton.  Maximum DR is 10,000 at
TTL 12, 20,000*(TTL-12) at higher TLs.  Available 'cheap' at TTL13-.

Nuclear Dampers (TTL12)

Per mile of radius, 10 tons, 2 dtons, $2 million, 800 MW.  Maximum radius
is 1 mile at TTL12, 3 * (TTL-12) at higher TLs.  Available 'cheap' at
TTL13-.  May be very small if desired; a sphere with a diameter of 1'
is 1 lb, $100, 80 kW.

Neural Activity Sensors (TTL13)

Treat as a GTL9 bioscanner at TTL13, GTL10 at TTL15.

Gravetic Scanner (TTL12)

Detects active gravetics; use the stats of a radscanner, the effects of a
gravscanner.  Like most electronics, must be 'cheap' until TTL14.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 18:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon Jun 10 17:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: high tech vs. low tech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206110148130.31289-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEOOHKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> writes:
>...the long night is far enough in the past that I should think that new
>satellites are up. Minor races and crash survivors can buy 'em probably
>thorough fund funneled through the ISS.

The imperium is not really in the business of giving things away, is it?
Of course, I can easily imagine situations where the Imperium might loan
or give a world money to buy a sattelite network, but in general I think
an Imperial world gets only what it can afford to buy.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

But if it helps improve the infrastructure it makes a real good investment.
 read that Ford once said he would give Ford cars away, if he could be 
guaranteed all spare parts sales.  sell a world a comm sat system
charging a nominal credit a head per year for access, and 
broker your SusBag brand comm sets  the however millions
the satellite system cost you will be paid off real fast.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>Besides I doubt if those two form all that great a number of cases.

A more numerous group will be colonies that lose part of most of their
technology early on due to insufficient manpower and equipment. Such a
world could take many generations to recover on its own.

See above, unless things have really gone to hell, this way you at least
have a culture that knows and recall imperial or higher tech.  If not,
effectively you have a minor race anyway.
jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 18:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon Jun 10 17:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ] Minimum population for tech levels,
 interstellar commerce and maintaining a TL
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1023754556.2225.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEOOHKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

> OTOH, at TL 12+ robots become increasingly common.  I could 
> easily imagine a perfectly self-sustaining world with a population of 
> maybe between 100,000+ (or at most 1,000,000+) that maintained 
> TL 15 w/o aid simply by virtue to the fact that it was extensively 
> automated.

While this is possible, I suspect it's very unlikely, because the required
capital investment per person is unreasonably high.  Just because something
_can_ be done doesn't mean it _will_ be done.
_______________________________________________


Bo numbers but here is an idea.

At any given TL it takes a certain amount of stuff 
made at that TL or higher.

At any given TL, so much stuff at that TL or lower 
can be made.

Markets, spaceport and other facilities, location and
arability of starships have a bearing on amount of goods
that can be transport in or out of system.

If the amount manufactured is greater then the amount 
required and there is shipping enough willing to transport 
it, it can be exported and the proceeds can be used to 
expand the technological base.

If the amount produced plus the imported material -- again 
assuming the shippers -- is greater or equal then the amount 
needed, the infrastructure and TL is maintained.

If the amount of TL appropriate stuff is to low, infrastructure
decays and TL goes down.

 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Jun 10 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
References: <20020610233155.DC2C627AAD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005401c210e1$fc68ae40$fd5d8690@computer>

> From: "John T. Kwon"
> One may indeed wonder.  Ever wonder why nations that try to
> buy fairly late model radar (French), artillery (South
> African), and tanks (Russian) end up wasting their money on
> what are essentially targets?

This isn't really true.  At some point you have to replace your old T-55s,
and the tanks you replace them with need to be as modern as you can afford.

Generally speaking, you aren't going to be fighting the USA, and cheaper
equipment is perfectly adequate for the task.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 18:47:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Jun 10 17:47:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
Message-ID: <F118ZrPxUZSGs4uDGcH0001b65a@hotmail.com>

From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

     "Obviously anything above historical tech levels will be mere 
guesswork, but I'd still like to know what people think. For instance, is a 
small family with a TTL 10 Mobile Fabrication Facility a TL 10 society?"


Sir,

     Guesswork indeed!
     My knee jerk answer to your question would be no.  Traveller doesn't 
have "Santa Claus" machines; devices you can shovel any old substance into 
and get whatever you want out of the other end.
     Even a TTL 10 Mobile Fabrication Facility (MFF) would require 
specialized raw materials and, eventually, specialized repair parts.  Von 
Neumann machines basically build more Von Neumann machines, and not bowling 
balls, vaccines, air/rafts, FGMPs, cell phones, or bobbie pins.
     I suppose we could take WBH's idea of discrete tech levels to their 
extreme.  Let's say you small family exists by snipe hunting.  Thanks to 
their own skills and knowledge, plus their handy MFF, they can build and 
maintain every device they specifically need for TL 10 snipe hunting.  But, 
they still travel on horseback and use outhouses.
     Could the tech level portion of the UPP be seen an as average of the 
entire spectrum of discrete tech levels?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S. I do hope this thread is proving to be of some help for you and your 
Knorbes work.


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 18:50:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon Jun 10 17:50:11 2002
Subject: [TML] ] Minimum population for tech levels,
 interstellar commerce and maintaining a TL
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEOOHKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEOPHKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

At any given TL it takes a certain amount of stuff 
made at that TL or higher.

>>>>>>>>>>>

The or higher accounts for the anomalous gadgets that 
may be imported though these should be small in proportion

jml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 19:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Jun 10 18:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
Message-ID: <F198u1kvJIB8OpwXTBf0000e1c8@hotmail.com>

From: generalturokan@juno.com

     "Thank you for YTU input to MTU questions."

     "It indeed is interesting, and I'll give it some further thought before 
deciding how I'll handle it."


General,

     Your welcome, sir.  I'm glad you gave me the opportunity to 
confus^h^h^h^h^h errr... HELP you.  Yeah that's it... HELP you.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S.  Is it any wonder why the people in the 57th century still don't 
understand jump space?


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 19:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon Jun 10 18:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scientific establishments, Mining bases,
 advance colonists and other low Pop Tech settings
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206110110560.31289-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEPBHKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Hans wrote

:
:

Obviously anything above historical tech levels will be mere guesswork,
but I'd still like to know what people think. For instance, is a small
family with a TTL 10 Mobile Fabrication Facility a TL 10 society?


>>>>>>>>>>
They are member of a TL society living elsewhere. 

I can see  few cases where this may occur,  Fabrication 
Family Robinson is filthy rich, which removes the question 
back to where they made their pile, And who built their 
facility.

More likely a High Tech Lo Pop means you are doing 
something so valuable that keeping you happy and equip 
makes it worth while to ship you the high tech toys you need 
to have your tech without infrastructure.  In essence,  you 
are pulling your technology out of the hold of a ship and 
expending it to maintain the life style.  Once it ends, 
so does the life style.

jml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 19:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 18:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with space/Ping!
In-Reply-To: <3D0400AA.33DC2107@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20610.174448.6E5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> <snippage of posts concerning Moving Mars from Greg Bear>
>>>> As I understand it, everything in the universe is supposed to have 
>>>>its own mathematical locating formula, a zip code if you will. 
>>>>Tweakers simply move a ship, a rock, or a planet, from one zip code >>>to 
> another. Now, if someone knows how to do 
> the engineering for >>>this, I got a sweet deal for you...
>>>
>>> Change of Address forms, located at your local post office. <g>
>>>
>>> But yes, the engineering was missing part for me.  It had something >>to 
> do with the Thinkers (AIs) thinking 'deep enough' or something and >>just 
> "tweaking" *something*.  That something eluded me.
>
> Leonard Erikson writes:
>>"All" you need to do is be able to do the equivalent of edit a field >in a 
> database. Finding the database and being able to edit it are the >real 
> problems.
>>
>>At a much "coarser" level, a number of SF stories (and some >speculation by 
> real physicists) has ideas such as being able >"seperate" things like 
> momentum from an object. This lets you do neat >things too. 
>
> Of course, there is also the fun possibility that its all part of the
> MATRIX, and that the Martians are really coppertops...

Nah, Nathan Brazil knows what's *really* going on... :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 19:12:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 18:12:22 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
In-Reply-To: <20020609.224458.-172023.4.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20610.174625.2V3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hi all,
>
> I know a lot of discussion about jump drives have been discussed, but I
> have a strange question.
>
> To begin:
> A fleet has entered jump space staggered in groups ie: scouts, then
> frigates, then etc, all perhaps minutes apart for each group.
>
> The situation:
> A frigate mis-jumps and rolls destroyed.
>
> Question:
> Could the destroyed frigate cause the remaining fleet ships behind the
> frigate to be forced out of jump space to normal space?
> Consequently running into a debris field.
> Or, would only the destroyed frigate be effected?

Only the destroyed frigate is affected. at least, that's how *I* read a
misjump result of "destroyed". All you know is that it went into jump
and didn't come out.

Or *maybe* jump entry looked *really* weird.

Also, keep in mind that spaceships *won't* be in that close a formation.

A "close" formation might have ships only a few km apart.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 19:12:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 18:12:47 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
In-Reply-To: <20020610132816.GB17586@saltmine.radix.net>
Message-ID: <20610.175258.2R6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Howdy!
>
> On Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 06:17:49AM -0700, Jeff Hopper wrote:
>> 
>> > I was under the impression that it was the 1 Mdton?
>> > Tigress Battleship. Also a
>> > sphere. Now which one makes you  happier!
>> > 
>> 
>> The Broadsword class Mercenary Cruiser! Most
>> interstellar governments won't get nervous if the PC
>> party owns one. A personally owned Tigress Battleship
>> wandering around the Imperium might make the Emperor
>> cranky - not to mention what the Referee might do!
>> 
>
> ObSchlock:
> ...and the first thing that popped to mind was "Post Dated Check Loan".

Isn't the PDCL rather larger than 500,000 dT?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 19:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Mon Jun 10 18:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
References: <B92A8546.5E524%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D055276.8090002@gmx.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:

>on 6/10/02 3:55 PM, Tommy Grav at tommy.grav@astro.uio.no wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I agree with that, but because something is in a book, doesn't mean that you
>>or I understand what is in there. My point is that unless the goverment works
>>to stay at a certain TL, they will quickly start down the road to decline.
>>    
>>
>
>Snort.  If we depended on the government of the US to maintain tech level,
>we'd be reading by candle light.
>
>  
>
It's the difference between -perceived- goverenment type and -actual- 
government type...anyone who thinks America (or Australia for that 
matter) is a Democracy is seriously deluding themselves.

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 19:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Jun 10 18:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <000f01c21091$45ec1f80$ac00a8c0@imogen>
References: <20609.145813.8e0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <000f01c21091$45ec1f80$ac00a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <20020611112647.A23503@freeman.little-possums.net>

Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:
> Er, maybe this is a dumb idea, but given cheap reliable grav and
> power why not have high-altitude comm 'satellites' ...  or even not
> so high.

Works a charm in GURPS Vehicles at least.  Contragrav takes extremely
little power, and even TL8 rechargeable power cells can keep one up
for a very long time.  Even solar power would do.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 19:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Jun 10 18:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206102327511.9736-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKNEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>>But even if the info is right there in front of them, it doesn;t mean
that
>>>they necessarily know what that info means. They can educate people to do
it,
>>>but that could take decades.
>
>>Exactly! And most low TL worlds have been inhabited how many hundreds of
>>years? Like I said in another post: All very reasonable for a period
>>equivalent to the 1930s in the South Pacific, some 30 to 50 years after
the
>>technological invention of the auto, aircraft, radio, etc. Not reasonable
>>for a period hundreds of years after the discovery of a TL.
>
>That depends on a lot of social factors. If physics and math and engineerin
>isn't seen as high priority fields, their ability to teach the subjects
>would quickly disintigrate. You would probably see lots of worlds that
>on long timescales move up and down the tech level ladder, depending on
>their social make up.
>
I will admit to being in the physics community, and so possibly prejudice.
If physics math and engineering aren't seen as priorities then they won't be
able to maintain a TL5 civilization either.

>>>>They're best import may be books and ebooks (along with readers.) They
>>don't
>>>>have to invent any of this. They already know how to do it. As in the
>>>>present societies that refuse to educate their young in science and
>>>>technology will fail to advance. Which may say more about why low TL
>>worlds
>>>>still exist than anything.
>>>
>>>True, but it doesn;t just have to be the one that refuse to educate, but
>>also
>>>the worlds that lack the resources to educate enough people. One then
runs
>>>into the question of what is the lower limit on people to achieve a
certain
>>>tech level. Is 1000 people enough to sustain a TL15 society?
>>>
>>
>>If a world has the people to educate people to maintain TL5 they have the
>>resources to educate them to maintain TL F. If I'm teaching physics on
such
>>a planet I'm not going to teach TL5 physics. I'm going to teach TL F
>>physics, just as TL 8 physics is now being taught in third world
countries,
>>not TL3 physics.
>
>This is not true. To know TL F physics you probably have to go through
>TL A-E physics first. We currently only teach TL8 or TL9 physics to
>a small percentage of the population. The rest of the population is
>bein thaught TL5 or TL6 physics. It is just not necessary for everyone to
>know about quantum mechanics or even elctromagnitsme. Should those few
>people who really knows TL8 or TL9 physics die of, or maybe relocate to
some
>outside world, it is going to take decades to educate a new generation to
>the same level. And I believe that TL F is going to see a lot of experts
within
>a small field. And getting a person to that level of expertice is a
lifetime
>achivement, since you need to basically learn everything that came before
it.
>
I would contest that given a reasonable population that this would be true.
Of the 7 billion or so people on Earth a small percentage learn superstring
theory or Quantum Mechanics, but this is still thousands and thousands of
people. None of this is beyond many people who don't necessarily specialize
in it. I taught myself special relativity while in high school, and don't
consider myself especially smart or gifted, merely motivated. (By Poul
Anderson's "Tau Zero". I read the book and wanted to understand what this
time dilation stuff was all about. ) Maintaining a high TL society, in
absence of outside influence is not really the case here since it's just as
likely that a TL F expert could move on world as move off world. Specific
political conditions could cause a mass migration, of course, as did the
Nazi's coming to power in 1930s Germany. But like the repressive religious
dictatorship (read Afghanistan) this will be a special case.

>>1000 people isn't enough to maintain any tech level above stone age
without
>>outside assistance, or even a big enough population to maintain a viable
>>genetic population for humans.
>
>So is there any worlds in the Imperium that has a population in the
thousands
>and high tech level. If there is the TL-is-manufactured-goods theory cant
work.
>
Which brings us back to the original question: What does TL mean in
Traveller?

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 19:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Jun 10 18:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20610.140749.8G6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEKNEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> In line with Larsen's commentary may I add this?
>>
>> A town only a few hours drive from the wired and wireless hub of Seattle
>> Washington, my home, just got phone lines last year.
>>
>> Additional--unconfirmed--I heard the story of a town that ran fiber to
>> every house in the town only to have the bundles lie, unconnected,
>> behind the local Telco. Seems it hadn't the capability to serve the
>> local fiber.
>
>Unlikely. While fiber can carry a lot more circuits than wire, if the
>local exchange could handle the load on the wires, switching the load
>to fiber wouldn't change the required *capacity* in the phone
>switch(es).
>
I suspect that their purpose was to make wide band communication available
to every house, not replace the existing capacity. In that case it is quite
possible that the local switching stations, which could handle voice traffic
would not have been able to handle broadband network traffic.


>But at both the phone switch and the customer end of the fiber, you
>have to replace the "interface" equipment.
>
>Given the cost of deploying that much fiber, though I can't see them
>doing that and *not* upgrading the phone switches to handle it.
>
It sounded to me like the town paid for the fiber, but expect the telcom to
provide the switching equipment.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 19:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Mon Jun 10 18:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B9296AA0.5E171%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <F8t1o85BFrSLtiEaJLi00019e35@hotmail.com> <B9296AA0.5E171%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <q9kagu0iqclu64f4fjcpastl5hgtc4cshf@4ax.com>

On Sun, 09 Jun 2002 20:31:10 -0700, Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

>Of course no one has mention the limitations of cellular technology.  =
For
>example, the is a very finite limit on the number of phones in a given =
cell
>with the assigned bandwidth.  With TDMA systems like GSM, it's something
>like 16 simultaneous connections.  Even with advanced systems using =
CMDA,
>you are limited to 64 theoretical connections.  And that's with current =
8k
>and 13k vocoders. There's a demand for even more bandwidth.  The =
spectrum is
>limited.  Who's going to give it up?

There are a number of recent articles mentioning that many of the
previous considerations regarding bandwidth may need to be
reconsidered in light of what can be accomplished with ultrawideband
technology.  From what I understand (and those who know me consider
that a disclaimer of stellar magnitude), it uses a system similar to
TDMA, but with the time divisions vastly smaller and with the signal
spread out over a comparatively wide frequency range.  This allows
them to use the bandwidth much more efficiently.  One claim was to
allow a 1000-fold increase in the number of simultaneous connections
over existing equipment like TDMA, without interfering with the
existing signals.

The case is being claimed that the new technology coming on line and
expecting to continue in a similar manner would effectively expand
bandwidth as the tech to subdivide it continues to improve.  By the
time of Traveller, this could be considered a non-issue for their
current tech.

>The wireless network has initial advantages of cost to deploy, but it's =
not
>an end solution.  Watch what happens as the system becomes saturated.  =
The
>US and other countries that have large amounts of hardwired bandwidth =
will
>still have a great advantage in terms of communications capacity.

Despite my above statements, I agree that there are significant
advantages to having the hardwired infrastructure in place.  These
advantages are so great that I could easily see targetted wiring being
done on lower tech worlds for specific uses.  For general usage,
however, wireless will probably be the more common.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 19:47:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Jun 10 18:47:26 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <F77jdcK1A809gu1osrb0001ac56@hotmail.com>
References: <F77jdcK1A809gu1osrb0001ac56@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020611114651.B23503@freeman.little-possums.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>      Then there's the Long Night and Hard Times to consider.  During
> each, the trade net fell apart and worlds slid down the tech level
> ladder.

My take on this is that neither was inevitable, but rather a
consequence of short-term expedience.  My belief is that it is
perfectly possible to have a completely self-sufficient TL F system of
only a few tens of thousands of people, and that the minimum number of
people required to maintain a TL peaks at about TL 8-9 (at a few
hundred million, say).  After that, automation can do basically
anything a human can do and the number of people required drops again.

Given this, it is my belief that the collapsing societies made ample
use of trade and a widespread pool of labour and human skills to keep
things running, rather than taking full advantage of technology.

When the few tens of thousands of roving experts who actually keep
things running were no longer able to do their rounds about the
various subsectors, things got ugly.


>      "Also remember that the "Ni" trade code means "Non-industrial
> worlds are forced to import much of their finished goods" (CT Book 3
> p16)."

It is funny that a number of them seem to maintain a higher TL than
modern-day Earth while having trade less than 0.2% of their GWP, is it
not?  Maybe all their holovid units and grav cars last 200 years
before any parts need to be replaced?


>      That fits neatly with my metagaming explanation for our trouble
> with TLs in the OTU.  The CT rules were devised BEFORE the Third
> Imperium was created.

Yes, that's my belief too.  The rules and setting were not really
designed to fit with each other, and the development of both were
spread out over decades.  There's a lot of time for old assumptions to
be forgotten, and a lot of people involved who may have a different
view of "the" Traveller universe.  It should not be forgotten that the
OTU is really just a collection of MTUs that share some common
features.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 19:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Jun 10 18:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92A8546.5E524%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEKOEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> I agree with that, but because something is in a book, doesn't mean that
you
>> or I understand what is in there. My point is that unless the goverment
works
>> to stay at a certain TL, they will quickly start down the road to
decline.
>
>Snort.  If we depended on the government of the US to maintain tech level,
>we'd be reading by candle light.
>
>Tod
>--
From the Left I'd just like to say: Amen to that.

Government can facilitate or hinder such things, but only people,
individually and collectively can do what's needed to maintain a tech level,
or create it in the first place.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 19:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Jun 10 18:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <q9kagu0iqclu64f4fjcpastl5hgtc4cshf@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEKOEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Of course no one has mention the limitations of cellular technology.  For
>>example, the is a very finite limit on the number of phones in a given
cell
>>with the assigned bandwidth.  With TDMA systems like GSM, it's something
>>like 16 simultaneous connections.  Even with advanced systems using CMDA,
>>you are limited to 64 theoretical connections.  And that's with current 8k
>>and 13k vocoders. There's a demand for even more bandwidth.  The spectrum
is
>>limited.  Who's going to give it up?
>
>There are a number of recent articles mentioning that many of the
>previous considerations regarding bandwidth may need to be
>reconsidered in light of what can be accomplished with ultrawideband
>technology.  From what I understand (and those who know me consider
>that a disclaimer of stellar magnitude), it uses a system similar to
>TDMA, but with the time divisions vastly smaller and with the signal
>spread out over a comparatively wide frequency range.  This allows
>them to use the bandwidth much more efficiently.  One claim was to
>allow a 1000-fold increase in the number of simultaneous connections
>over existing equipment like TDMA, without interfering with the
>existing signals.
>
This sounds very similar to me of the way in which standard digital T1 and
T3 lines already handle communication. Most people don't realize that their
voice communication is already compressed and sent in microsecond burst
along the communication trunks to be expanded at the other end, rather than
sent at audio frequencies like old fashion radio.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 20:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Jun 10 19:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20610.134445.9o4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEIMHKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> <20610.134445.9o4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020611120700.C23503@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> If the tech isn't "magic",

This is Traveller.  Of course the tech is magic.


> That's going to require a fusion plant or some *really* impressive
> batteries (which will have to contain considerably *more* than 64
> MJ/kg to have enough power left over for moving the *rest* of the
> satellite).

In other words, easily done with TL8 power cells.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 20:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Mon Jun 10 19:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: High TL-Low Pop
In-Reply-To: <20020610214105.DF5F427A94@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020611020816.50406.qmail@web21508.mail.yahoo.com>

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


 
On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Terry Carlino wrote:

>>But even if the info is right there in front of them, it doesn;t mean 
that
>>they necessarily know what that info means. They can educate people 
to do it,
>>but that could take decades.

>Exactly! And most low TL worlds have been inhabited how many hundreds 
of
>years? Like I said in another post: All very reasonable for a period
>equivalent to the 1930s in the South Pacific, some 30 to 50 years 
after the
>technological invention of the auto, aircraft, radio, etc. Not 
reasonable
>for a period hundreds of years after the discovery of a TL.

That depends on a lot of social factors. If physics and math and 
engineerin
isn't seen as high priority fields, their ability to teach the subjects
would quickly disintigrate. You would probably see lots of worlds that
on long timescales move up and down the tech level ladder, depending on
their social make up.

>>>They're best import may be books and ebooks (along with readers.) 
They
>don't
>>>have to invent any of this. They already know how to do it. As in 
the
>>>present societies that refuse to educate their young in science and
>>>technology will fail to advance. Which may say more about why low TL
>worlds
>>>still exist than anything.
>>
>>True, but it doesn;t just have to be the one that refuse to educate, 
but
>also
>>the worlds that lack the resources to educate enough people. One then 
runs
>>into the question of what is the lower limit on people to achieve a 
certain
>>tech level. Is 1000 people enough to sustain a TL15 society?
>>
>
>If a world has the people to educate people to maintain TL5 they have 
the
>resources to educate them to maintain TL F. If I'm teaching physics on 
such
>a planet I'm not going to teach TL5 physics. I'm going to teach TL F
>physics, just as TL 8 physics is now being taught in third world 
countries,
>not TL3 physics.

This is not true. To know TL F physics you probably have to go through
TL A-E physics first. We currently only teach TL8 or TL9 physics to
a small percentage of the population. The rest of the population is
bein thaught TL5 or TL6 physics. It is just not necessary for everyone 
to
know about quantum mechanics or even elctromagnitsme. Should those few
people who really knows TL8 or TL9 physics die of, or maybe relocate to 
some
outside world, it is going to take decades to educate a new generation 
to
the same level. And I believe that TL F is going to see a lot of 
experts within
a small field. And getting a person to that level of expertice is a 
lifetime
achivement, since you need to basically learn everything that came 
before it.

>1000 people isn't enough to maintain any tech level above stone age 
without
>outside assistance, or even a big enough population to maintain a 
viable
>genetic population for humans.

So is there any worlds in the Imperium that has a population in the 
thousands
and high tech level. If there is the TL-is-manufactured-goods theory 
cant work.

Cheers
Tommy Grav

The problem seems to be with thinking that it takes people to run a TL15 civilization. Most manufacturing, mining and food processing will undoubtedly be done by computers and robots, with other, more sophisticated computers and robots supervising and repairing them. You would probably be able to buy (for an extremely large amount of money) a "Complete TL15 Colony In A Box!" that would provide most of the manufacturing and processing that you would need for a small colony. As far as the genetic problems of a small colony, you have some pretty sophisticated medical technology that would significantly ease any problems in that regard. As a matter of fact, when it comes to high tech colonization, it seems to me that you would probably have more small colony efforts than large ones, as small groups who were fed up with the overcrowding on high-tech, high-pop planets looked for an escape. Likely the colonists would look for a place where they could live an "uncrowded" lifestyle, which would explain the high TL, low-pop worlds out there.

John

jwdh71@yahoo.com  



---------------------------------
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<P>&nbsp;
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<P>On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Terry Carlino wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;But even if the info is right there in front of them, it doesn;t mean <BR>that<BR>&gt;&gt;they necessarily know what that info means. They can educate people <BR>to do it,<BR>&gt;&gt;but that could take decades.<BR><BR>&gt;Exactly! And most low TL worlds have been inhabited how many hundreds <BR>of<BR>&gt;years? Like I said in another post: All very reasonable for a period<BR>&gt;equivalent to the 1930s in the South Pacific, some 30 to 50 years <BR>after the<BR>&gt;technological invention of the auto, aircraft, radio, etc. Not <BR>reasonable<BR>&gt;for a period hundreds of years after the discovery of a TL.<BR><BR>That depends on a lot of social factors. If physics and math and <BR>engineerin<BR>isn't seen as high priority fields, their ability to teach the subjects<BR>would quickly disintigrate. You would probably see lots of worlds that<BR>on long timescales move up and down the tech level ladder, depending on<BR>their social make up.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;They're best import may be books and ebooks (along with readers.) <BR>They<BR>&gt;don't<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;have to invent any of this. They already know how to do it. As in <BR>the<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;present societies that refuse to educate their young in science and<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;technology will fail to advance. Which may say more about why low TL<BR>&gt;worlds<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;still exist than anything.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;True, but it doesn;t just have to be the one that refuse to educate, <BR>but<BR>&gt;also<BR>&gt;&gt;the worlds that lack the resources to educate enough people. One then <BR>runs<BR>&gt;&gt;into the question of what is the lower limit on people to achieve a <BR>certain<BR>&gt;&gt;tech level. Is 1000 people enough to sustain a TL15 society?<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;If a world has the people to educate people to maintain TL5 they have <BR>the<BR>&gt;resources to educate them to maintain TL F. If I'm teaching physics on <BR>such<BR>&gt;a planet I'm not going to teach TL5 physics. I'm going to teach TL F<BR>&gt;physics, just as TL 8 physics is now being taught in third world <BR>countries,<BR>&gt;not TL3 physics.<BR><BR>This is not true. To know TL F physics you probably have to go through<BR>TL A-E physics first. We currently only teach TL8 or TL9 physics to<BR>a small percentage of the population. The rest of the population is<BR>bein thaught TL5 or TL6 physics. It is just not necessary for everyone <BR>to<BR>know about quantum mechanics or even elctromagnitsme. Should those few<BR>people who really knows TL8 or TL9 physics die of, or maybe relocate to <BR>some<BR>outside world, it is going to take decades to educate a new generation <BR>to<BR>the same level. And I believe that TL F is going to see a lot of <BR>experts within<BR>a small field. And getting a person to that level of expertice is a <BR>lifetime<BR>achivement, since you need to basically learn everything that came <BR>before it.<BR><BR>&gt;1000 people isn't enough to maintain any tech level above stone age <BR>without<BR>&gt;outside assistance, or even a big enough population to maintain a <BR>viable<BR>&gt;genetic population for humans.<BR><BR>So is there any worlds in the Imperium that has a population in the <BR>thousands<BR>and high tech level. If there is the TL-is-manufactured-goods theory <BR>cant work.<BR><BR>Cheers<BR>Tommy Grav</P>
<P>The problem seems to be with thinking that it takes people to run a TL15 civilization. Most manufacturing, mining&nbsp;and food processing will undoubtedly be done by computers and robots, with other, more sophisticated computers and robots supervising and repairing them. You would probably be able to buy (for an extremely large amount of money) a "Complete TL15 Colony In&nbsp;A Box!" that would provide most of the manufacturing and processing that you would need for a small colony. As far as the genetic problems of a small colony, you have some pretty sophisticated&nbsp;medical technology that would significantly ease any problems in that regard. As&nbsp;a matter of fact, when it comes to high tech colonization, it seems to me that you would probably have more small colony efforts than large ones, as small groups who were fed up with the overcrowding on high-tech, high-pop planets looked for an escape.&nbsp;Likely the colonists would look for a place where they could live an "uncrowded" lifestyle, which&nbsp;would explain the high TL, low-pop worlds out there.</P>
<P>John</P>
<P><A href="mailto:jwdh71@yahoo.com">jwdh71@yahoo.com</A>&nbsp;&nbsp;</P></BLOCKQUOTE><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br>
<a href="http://rd.yahoo.com/welcome/*http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/fc/en/spl">Sign-up for Video Highlights</a> of 2002 FIFA World Cup
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 20:11:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Mon Jun 10 19:11:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Atmospheric Pressures and Charcters?
In-Reply-To: <20020610110926.38ed9a41.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <3D024B3D.29502.1974C52@localhost> <20609.131946.7n9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <20020610110926.38ed9a41.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <vkmagu00eond200oun57eol1dap5og6e7g@4ax.com>

On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 11:09:26 +0200, Jens Rydholm
<jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote:

>shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>> You won't be able to inhale against the pressure of the water on your
>> chest. Heck, at *3* feet, it takes a noticeable effort to inflate your
>> lungs against the water pressure if you are breathing thru a tube
>> connected to the surface (3 feet =3D roughly 1/10 atm pressure =
difference)
>
>Going off on a tangent here...
>
>Water depth is also a great way of showing the pressure difference
>between normal atmospheric pressure and vacuum. The difference in
>pressure is the same as the difference between 10 meters (approx. 30
>feet) water depth and the air just above the surface.
>
>I wish I could explain this to certain Hollywood directors... *sigh*=20
>When was the last time you saw a bottom-dwelling fish explode when
>brought to the surface?

Very deep dwelling fish will do this to some degree.  The culprit is
their swim bladder, essentially a fish's version of a submarine's
ballast tank.  It contains a small amount of gas which is squeezed to
reduce its volume and allow the fish to sink deeper.  Of course, this
only works over a limited range of depths.  It is not unknown for
those same deep dwelling fish when brought up a bit higher than their
capacity to be carried helplessly upward as the reduced pressure
allows their own swim bladder to expand more than they can accomodate.

Now the "explosion" isn't Hollywood level, but it is enough to rupture
the creature's internal structure and result in its eventual death.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 20:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 19:16:03 2002
Subject: Sceneraios (was Re: [TML] jump question)
In-Reply-To: <20020610111522.57b8000a.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20610.180254.8f5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> IMTU, the frigate is destroyed, spreading its component molecules out
> along the entire jump distance (in a vaguely cigarr-shaped area). The
> rest of the fleet is not affected, and they have no idea what
> happened to the frigatte.  For all they know, it might just have
> misjumped.

Hmm. that reminds me. At least one version of the rules has "increased
duration as a possible misjump result. 

Scenario idea...

The players are refueling in an "empty" system, or way out in the outer
portions of a system. Maybe even using a deep space refueling stop (a
comet someone got lucky enough to find after misjumping into an "empty"
hex)

They detect a jump emergence. And then nothing. There was something odd
about the signature, too.

They cautiously approach the emergence point. And find a ship, dead in
space. Someone either ecognizes it, or the ship's data library has a
volume on history of ship types from a former owner. 

Anyway, it's a Vilani ship. Dating back to the *early* First Imperium!

Upon boarding, they find the systems all dead. Including the low berths
the crew took to when it became clear that they were stuck in jump for
some unkown amount of time. They are long dead, of course.

Further investigation shows that the ship entered jump 4000 years
before (or more, I don't know when the Vilani discovered jump).

Besides the historical value of the ship and it's cargo, the readings
from the ship's instruments will be worth a lot to various groups
working on jump physics.

So will studies of the ship itself, as spending thousands of years in
jump space may have affected it in ways that shorter stays wouldn't
have. 

That's because this misjump is *so* far outside the normal parameters
(9 sigmas?) that it'll provide an invaluable test of theories. Just the
fact that it *happened* will rule out several of the leading theories
of jump space. The details may rule out others or move "fringe"
theories into prominence. 

The ship needs to be preserved, both for historians, and for the
physicists. And the data needs to be copied. Then they need to try to
figure out who to sell it to and how. 

This is tricky because the mere *existence* of the ship is worth a lot,
so they have to try to find a way to get bids without giving away the
farm.

Interested buyers? For the historical stuff, most universities and
collectors interested the period.

For the scientific data? Any megacorp building jump drives. The
Imperial Navy. Many universities, most "other powers" (Zhodani,
Darrians, etc). 

The military and intelligence folks will want to bottle this up until
their scientists can get all the data they can. And probably for a lot
longer. 

Which means that it may not be *safe* to try to sell the data to
*anybody*. 

Lots of potential pitfalls. Especially given the need to try to keep
*what* is being sold secret until the money is guaranteed.

I'm sure that creative GMs can take this idea and run with it in all
sorts of directions I haven't even thought of. 

Another scenario that I have in mind requires a lot more weirdness and
may not be *possible* to slip into the OTU at all.

The ship is damaged. The crew is dead. And it's not from anywhere in
known space... Is it a super misjump? Or an experimental super-jump
drive that failed catastrophically?

Either way, it's worth a lot to the right people...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 20:16:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 19:16:29 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
In-Reply-To: <20020610.134013.-69441.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20610.183215.6h7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 11:15:22 +0200 Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
> writes:
>>
>> IMTU, the frigate is destroyed, spreading its component molecules out
> along the entire jump distance (in a vaguely cigar-shaped area). The rest
> of the fleet is not affected, and they have no idea what happened to the
> frigatte. For all they know, it might just have misjumped.
  
> On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 06:18:38 +0000 "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
> <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>>      If in jump space, there's no problem.  Everyone else jumps
> normally and the frigate, or pieces of it, suffer an unknown fate in jump
> space.
>
> OK, next questions.
>
> If a jump field is destroyed (because the frigate exploded), why would
> the debris remain in jump space?
> What's keeping the debris there?

Depends on how you envision jump working. Maybe "all" that failed was
whatever creates the "jump bubble" around the ship while it is in jump
space. 

Which means the whole ship gets exposed to "raw" jumpspace. With much
the same results as tossing the affected areas thru the edge of the
bubble. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 20:17:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Mon Jun 10 19:17:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
References: <20610.133745.0p3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <3D052861.5040601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <002101c210ee$0709f870$1c577b83@Gideon>

<quote>

> > The metric system has been legal in the US for over 200 years.

</quote>

Well I'm not sure about where you live but I know for a fact that our local
paper posts daily in the classifieds that according to state law it is
illegal to use anything but imperial measurement for the sale of wood.  On a
personal note I went to a local hardware store and asked for a tape measure
that was marked in centimeters and was told "Where do you think you are?
This is America!" (I'm not joking!)  I discussed this event with a friend
who works on houses for a living and his remark was that under no
circumstances will the US ever switch from using imperial units until they
are first no longer taught in local schools and second, laws are passed to
forbid builders from using non-metric units.

obtrav - I have always pictured the Imperium as much more totalitarian than
what seems to be the general consensus here on the TML and Calendar
Compliance was just the term I used to cover all standards.  Technology,
time measurement, physical measurement and Noble fealty are all covered
within that term...

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 20:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Ayres)
Date: Mon Jun 10 19:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKNEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020611024730.54965.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com>

> Which brings us back to the original question: What
> does TL mean in Traveller?

I always like to go back to the beginning on stuff
like this:  

Book 2 defines TL as: "The TL of a world determines
the quality and sophistication of the products of a
world.  It indicates what precise types of equipment
are available and common locally."

I see the key words here as: "products of a world",
and "types... available and common..."

I had an Indian Calculus teacher in college that said
that Calculus was not a science, but an art.  I get
the feeling that trying to crunch a system (or world)
tech level down to a single digit indicative of what
the common traveller would see is similar - it's an
art!  

What is most important to the traveller in something
that can be shown in a TL?  Medicine, equipment,
vehicles, weapons?  I can easily see where a planet's
population could be at drastically different levels of
TLs.

I've followed both the threads here and on JTAS with
interest.  FWIW, I've found the concept of a non-human
population for Knorbes or wherever the population and
tech levels, and/or atmospheres don't jive as one of
the more interesting explanations.  Perhaps there's a
previously un-published alien society that flourishes
in such environments (throughout the Imperium?).

Scott



__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 21:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Mon Jun 10 20:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: High TL-Low Pop
In-Reply-To: <20020611020816.50406.qmail@web21508.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206110455430.9736-100000@svati>

On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, John Hamill wrote:

>The problem seems to be with thinking that it takes people to run a TL15
>civilization. Most manufacturing, mining and food processing will undoubtedly
>be done by computers and robots, with other, more sophisticated computers and
>robots supervising and repairing them. You would probably be able to buy (for
>an extremely large amount of money) a "Complete TL15 Colony In A Box!" that
>would provide most of the manufacturing and processing that you would need for
>a small colony. As far as the genetic problems of a small colony, you have some
>pretty sophisticated medical technology that would significantly ease any
>problems in that regard. As a matter of fact, when it comes to high tech
>colonization, it seems to me that you would probably have more small colony
>efforts than large ones, as small groups who were fed up with the overcrowding
>on high-tech, high-pop planets looked for an escape. Likely the colonists would
>look for a place where they could live an "uncrowded" lifestyle, which would
>explain the high TL, low-pop worlds out there.

But sooner, later rhan later a part is going to break that the robots can't fix
themself. Unless the humans know how to manufacture that part, they'll have to
import it from the outside. Only a society were you have AI computers will it
be possible for robots to manufacture every concivable part that goes into
making a colony, and even then, should the AI itself break, outside help is
needed.

The problem still remains. What does TL really mean? IMTU it means the equipment
that is readily available on the world. If the tech level is lower than the
highest available in the region it means that there is a lack of imports or
a lack of will or ability to manufacture at that TL. Or both.

>John

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]





From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 21:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Mon Jun 10 20:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <002101c210ee$0709f870$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206110503090.9736-100000@svati>

On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Anthony Colosetti wrote:

><quote>
>> > The metric system has been legal in the US for over 200 years.
></quote>
>
>Well I'm not sure about where you live but I know for a fact that our local
>paper posts daily in the classifieds that according to state law it is
>illegal to use anything but imperial measurement for the sale of wood.  On a
>personal note I went to a local hardware store and asked for a tape measure
>that was marked in centimeters and was told "Where do you think you are?
>This is America!" (I'm not joking!)  I discussed this event with a friend
>who works on houses for a living and his remark was that under no
>circumstances will the US ever switch from using imperial units until they
>are first no longer taught in local schools and second, laws are passed to
>forbid builders from using non-metric units.

Just to chip in, Norway, who uses standard metrics all around, still use
inches when measuring the with and thikness of wood, while the lenght is
measured in meters. So you'll find a 2m 4 by 2.

>obtrav - I have always pictured the Imperium as much more totalitarian than
>what seems to be the general consensus here on the TML and Calendar
>Compliance was just the term I used to cover all standards.  Technology,
>time measurement, physical measurement and Noble fealty are all covered
>within that term...

I like to disagree with this, since it makes the Imperium a very dull place.
It seems to me that most people like to see the Imperium, like some grand
american empire :-) Stable, low on internal conflicts and with some internal
measurement of goodness in its government. I like to think of hte Imperium as
an exploiting malestroem that looks more like the Empire of Star Wars. The
Zhodani are the stable happy soceity in my TU :-)

>Anthony Colosetti

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 21:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Jun 10 20:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206102327511.9736-100000@svati>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEKFEAAA.carlino@cox.net> <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206102327511.9736-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <20020611132821.D23503@freeman.little-possums.net>

> This is not true. To know TL F physics you probably have to go
> through TL A-E physics first.

That must be why we teach crystal spheres and epicycles today.  I
always wondered about that.  That's why we teach that zero is not a
number, and multiplication with Roman numerals before high-tech maths
such as writing the number "10".


> We currently only teach TL8 or TL9 physics to a small percentage of
> the population.

Damn!  You're right, I've only ever been taught TL7 physics.  Sign me
up for the mechanics of working FTL drives.


> And getting a person to that level of expertice is a lifetime
> achivement, since you need to basically learn everything that came
> before it.

I only learned about most TL5- science after having a good grasp of
TL7 stuff.  I wasn't interested in history.  Of course, when I started
research I started to very quickly become interested in how people
came up with new ideas in the past :)

One factor you're ignoring is that we teach *everyone* in our society
science that is in most ways more accurate than *anyone* in TL5- knew.
The proportion of people who are familiar with any of the sciences is
also greater, and they reached such a level of understanding *much*
earlier on average.  Mainly because we teach knowing where all the
dead-ends are.

By TTL F, there is also a much greater knowledge of brain function and
psychology.  They may not even need crude verbal and pictorial analogy
to enable learning, and certainly wouldn't need a human teacher who
can handle only a few tens of students at most.  I expect direct brain
interfaces and near-sentient AIs to be the norm.  Human teachers (more
like supervisors) can handle the remaining rough spots, if any.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 21:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 10 20:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <3D055276.8090002@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <B92ABD3A.5E58B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/10/02 6:29 PM, Robert Houghton at Sudragon@gmx.net wrote:

>>> I agree with that, but because something is in a book, doesn't mean that you
>>> or I understand what is in there. My point is that unless the goverment
>>> works
>>> to stay at a certain TL, they will quickly start down the road to decline.
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> Snort.  If we depended on the government of the US to maintain tech level,
>> we'd be reading by candle light.
>> 
>> 
>> 
> It's the difference between -perceived- goverenment type and -actual-
> government type...anyone who thinks America (or Australia for that
> matter) is a Democracy is seriously deluding themselves.

Huh?  What does this have to do with anything?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 21:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 10 20:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEKOEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <B92ABEB7.5E58C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/10/02 6:54 PM, Terry Carlino at carlino@cox.net wrote:

> This sounds very similar to me of the way in which standard digital T1 and
> T3 lines already handle communication. Most people don't realize that their
> voice communication is already compressed and sent in microsecond burst
> along the communication trunks to be expanded at the other end, rather than
> sent at audio frequencies like old fashion radio.

Only in digital systems.  There are still a few analogue systems out there.

But you are correct.  In digital cell systems, voice is packetized by the
vocoder.  Much of this has to do with noise suppression as well as signal
compression.  

This processing creates a delay in the signal, which is quite noticeable if
you call another cell phone user who is in the same room.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 21:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 10 20:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <q9kagu0iqclu64f4fjcpastl5hgtc4cshf@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <B92AC0C2.5E58F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/10/02 6:46 PM, JR Holmes at jrholmes@wi.rr.com wrote:

> There are a number of recent articles mentioning that many of the
> previous considerations regarding bandwidth may need to be
> reconsidered in light of what can be accomplished with ultrawideband
> technology.  From what I understand (and those who know me consider
> that a disclaimer of stellar magnitude), it uses a system similar to
> TDMA, but with the time divisions vastly smaller and with the signal
> spread out over a comparatively wide frequency range.  This allows
> them to use the bandwidth much more efficiently.  One claim was to
> allow a 1000-fold increase in the number of simultaneous connections
> over existing equipment like TDMA, without interfering with the
> existing signals.

The next generation of cell phones are more likely to use CDMA technology,
which is built around spread spectrum.  When I was at Qualcomm, it was only
Eriksson that was opposing CDMA to avoid paying licensing fees to the patent
holder (Qualcomm).  Just about everyone accepted that it was the superior
technology for the next generation cell phone.

With TDMA, you can only timeslice so much, and the amount of slicing is
limited by the frequency.
> 
> The case is being claimed that the new technology coming on line and
> expecting to continue in a similar manner would effectively expand
> bandwidth as the tech to subdivide it continues to improve.  By the
> time of Traveller, this could be considered a non-issue for their
> current tech.

Basic signal theory says that the amount of data that can be sent is
proportional to the frequency of the signal.  You can send 1s and 0s at a
faster rate than the signal occilates. High technology doesn't change that
fact.
> 
>> The wireless network has initial advantages of cost to deploy, but it's not
>> an end solution.  Watch what happens as the system becomes saturated.  The
>> US and other countries that have large amounts of hardwired bandwidth will
>> still have a great advantage in terms of communications capacity.
> 
> Despite my above statements, I agree that there are significant
> advantages to having the hardwired infrastructure in place.  These
> advantages are so great that I could easily see targetted wiring being
> done on lower tech worlds for specific uses.  For general usage,
> however, wireless will probably be the more common.

I suspect that 'wiring' will be around for quite a while, particularly as
bandwidth increases.  Demands for the EM spectrum are only going to
increase, and the allotments will eventually get used up.

Hardwired networks don't have this problem.  You can always increase
capacity by adding more pipes.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 22:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 10 21:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <200206102329.IEL01489@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B92AC5C0.5E592%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/10/02 4:29 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> One may indeed wonder.  Ever wonder why nations that try to
> buy fairly late model radar (French), artillery (South
> African), and tanks (Russian) end up wasting their money on
> what are essentially targets?  Iraq found out that there's
> more to an infrastructure to support the logistical tail -
> there's a whole suit of clothes that comes with knowing how
> to strategically and tactically "use" the
> technology "together".  A T-72 makes a nice target if it's
> working all by itself (or without integrated air cover, or
> integrated infantry support, etc.).

That depends on who you are fighting.  Iraq's military equipment was
probably more than enough to deal with it's neighbors.  Who'd imagine they'd
be fighting the US, their old ally.  This is like a planet buying slightly
better tech than it can produce locally to take on the Imperium.
> 
> On the other hand, the basic concepts contained in the AK-47
> were laid down by German engineers and further roughened and
> simplified by Russians.  It's a TL 6 weapon, and I would bet
> any amount of money that like the stamped sheet metal
> submachinegun, it will be with us far into the future (now
> here's where Tod steps in and says the shotgun will also..
> I'm not trying to make a gun point, it's a tech level point).

In reality, one can say that basic fire arms technology hasn't changed in
500 years.  Guns have been product improved over that time, but the same
basic principle of propelling a projectile by the action of a chemical
reaction is still in use.  There is really nothing about modern firearms
that a 16th century arquebusser couldn't understand.

It does seem that chemical slugthrowers have reached a plateau.  Until we
speak about things like railguns or guided munitions, there really hasn't be
any great technological change in firearms in a long time.  True, the
materials are new, but they still operate on the old principles and haven't
proved to be any more effective or lethal than earlier models.

I'll address the shotgun question just to rise to John's bait.  It's really
the oldest firearms design, and likely to last for a while as a pattern
because of it's versatility.  The Assault rifle and the SMG are military
weapons.  The shotgun is a multipurpose weapon. It's good for taking game,
defense, etc.  And is likely to be part of the settler's toolkit for as long
as firearms are still in use.  The Winchester and the Colt SAA revolver
didn't win the west.  The shotgun in the hands of a million settlers did.

Some additional notes.  Weapons made of stampings only make sense if you
will be making large quantities.  Stamping technology does not make economic
sense unless you will be producing quantities sufficient to justify tooling
up dedicated machinery.  For a colony or small population machinings are
much more efficient use of tools, particularly if CAM systems are available.

As to the continued existence of the SMG, it seems questionable, as the
assault rifle is more than capable of fulfilling the same role, while
replacing the military rifle as well.  Why have two designs when one will do
the job, particularly if resources are limited.  not that in the case of
first world armies, the SMG as a military weapon for general issue has all
but disappeared.
> 
> These weapons can be made by fairly uneducated people in
> backwater areas.  I'm not sure a laser rifle could be made
> from scratch under similar circumstances, nor sold so
> cheaply.  And it kills unarmored people dead, just as well
> (some would say better) than a laser rifle.

I have seen examples of fairly 'modern' weapons made by extremely limited
means.  One was a copy of a Colt 1911 made by a Vietnamese blacksmith with
nothing more than a coal fired forge and files.  The other was a copy of an
AK make by some Afghani fighter using similar tools during the Soviet
occupation.  Both worked.  High tech doesn't always mean better, nor does
low tech necessarily mean ineffective.
> 
> All of the later high tech thingies come with contracts,
> logistical tail, and an intended "synergy".
> 
> To haul cargo from one place to another, I don't need a
> guided missile cruiser, and having all that equipment and
> radar would be a great initial expense, a crew expense, and a
> maintenance expense, leading to possible legal expenses.  A
> nice old freighter with decent engines should do the trick,
> and if she's got a few rusty spots on the hull, well...  no
> one ever moved the stars closer or farther apart in my
> lifetime.  The trip to the next system is a fixed distance,
> and I don't need a ship that exceeds that capacity.  Along a
> route such as the Spinward Main, I would expect most ships to
> be old rust buckets with no weapons (there is that old plasma
> gun that one of the Marines insisted on bolting on to the
> hull, but I'm getting off the ship before they touch it off).

Agreed.  High tech, difficult to manufacture items are really the only
things that make sense to trade over interstellar distances.  I don't see
how shipping anything like raw material or foodstuff could ever be
economically viable for trade.

The question is, what do the low techers have to give in trade for those
high tech goodies that can be economically shipped back?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 22:09:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Jun 10 21:09:25 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIECGCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:

>Snort.  If we depended on the government of the US to maintain tech level,
>we'd be reading by candle light.

Actually, I think we'd be reading by kerosene lantern, or maybe a
gasoline-powered lamp, or something that uses petroleum products in large
quantities.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 22:28:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Jun 10 21:28:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206110110560.31289-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020610214105.F0C0927A8E@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206110110560.31289-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20020611142740.E23503@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> That reminds me of something I've been trying to figure out. For
> each tech level, what is the minimum size of the population needed
> to maintain it?

My guess is that it peaks somehwere around TL 8-9, where technology is
highly complex, but not smart enough to do any of the work of
maintaining itself.


> For instance, is a small family with a TTL 10 Mobile Fabrication
> Facility a TL 10 society?

Probably not self-sufficient at TTL 10.  Eventually the MFF will break
down in such a way that none of its sub-parts can repair.

My personal guess for Traveller is that the minimum population
high-tech self-sufficient society would be a few thousand or so expert
human maintainers (and any number of consumers).  The infrastructure
would be pretty huge, I would guess.  I envisage it as numerous
facilities spread across suitable locations on a planet, in orbit, and
other locations in a star system.  Almost completely automated,
capable of gathering its own raw materials, maintaining and extending
itself.  As a whole, able to diagnose and respond to *almost* all
problems (but not centralised).  Probably a minimum capital cost of
about ten trillion CrImp.

Such a thing wouldn't be built in one big hit, and would in practice
require more people since human labour would be cheaper than some of
the technological alternatives.  That's just the *minimum* I see as
working.


However, outposts of a high-tech society could certainly produce
high-tech goods or services without full self-sufficiency
infrastructure.

e.g. a pop-2 TTL-D system could well be a research station with a
TTL-F fabrication facility capable of producing almost any TTL C goods
they need, and delivering cutting-edge research (a TTL-F service).  Or
perhaps a clinic where the very rich can obtain rather high-tech
medical treatment of various sorts including those that are illegal in
the system next door.  The medical TTL-F is averaged with the
inability to provide much better than TTL-9 in some other types of
goods and services.

Such systems usually have trade greater than their GWP, which makes
sense for an outpost reliant on external support.


In short, I see the TL number as the average tech level of locally
produced goods and services.

Not what they are self-sufficient in, though there will be some sort
of correlation.  Not their level of wealth, though there will be a
strong correlation.  Just in terms of a TAS member asking, "what can
they do for me".  Can they fix my TL10 jump drive (a TL10 service)?
Can I buy a grav belt here?  That sort of thing.  Yes, higher-tech
goods will be available just about anywhere, as imports.  But local
services and goods will be *much* easier to find, given that trade
makes up less than 5% of most worlds' GWP.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 22:28:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Mon Jun 10 21:28:40 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92AC0C2.5E58F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <q9kagu0iqclu64f4fjcpastl5hgtc4cshf@4ax.com> <B92AC0C2.5E58F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <6ftagu4mrk95f091u6gl5ev5qfnhedjbdd@4ax.com>

On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:46:58 -0700, Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

>on 6/10/02 6:46 PM, JR Holmes at jrholmes@wi.rr.com wrote:
>
>> There are a number of recent articles mentioning that many of the
>> previous considerations regarding bandwidth may need to be
>> reconsidered in light of what can be accomplished with ultrawideband
>> technology.  From what I understand (and those who know me consider
>> that a disclaimer of stellar magnitude), it uses a system similar to
>> TDMA, but with the time divisions vastly smaller and with the signal
>> spread out over a comparatively wide frequency range.  This allows
>> them to use the bandwidth much more efficiently.  One claim was to
>> allow a 1000-fold increase in the number of simultaneous connections
>> over existing equipment like TDMA, without interfering with the
>> existing signals.
>
>The next generation of cell phones are more likely to use CDMA =
technology,
>which is built around spread spectrum.  When I was at Qualcomm, it was =
only
>Eriksson that was opposing CDMA to avoid paying licensing fees to the =
patent
>holder (Qualcomm).  Just about everyone accepted that it was the =
superior
>technology for the next generation cell phone.
>
>With TDMA, you can only timeslice so much, and the amount of slicing is
>limited by the frequency.

As noted above, I'm far from an expert her and am merely parroting
back laymanized explanations of the claims of ultrawideband tech.
Though you note that CDMA relies upon spread spectrum you may have
forgotten that, by definition, ultrawideband relies upon the same, but
to an even greater extent.  Now there is also something in there about
timeslices as well, but I don't recall specifics at this time.

>> The case is being claimed that the new technology coming on line and
>> expecting to continue in a similar manner would effectively expand
>> bandwidth as the tech to subdivide it continues to improve.  By the
>> time of Traveller, this could be considered a non-issue for their
>> current tech.
>
>Basic signal theory says that the amount of data that can be sent is
>proportional to the frequency of the signal.  You can send 1s and 0s at =
a
>faster rate than the signal occilates. High technology doesn't change =
that
>fact.

True that a given frequency can only carry a certain amount of signal,
but spread spectrum and ultrawideband do not use a single frequency.
By spreading the data over a number of frequencies (and sharing those
based upon the respective multiplexing schemes), it can appear that
the overall bandwidth goes up, though an individual frequency doesn't
exceed the calculated limit.

>>> The wireless network has initial advantages of cost to deploy, but =
it's not
>>> an end solution.  Watch what happens as the system becomes saturated.=
  The
>>> US and other countries that have large amounts of hardwired bandwidth=
 will
>>> still have a great advantage in terms of communications capacity.
>>=20
>> Despite my above statements, I agree that there are significant
>> advantages to having the hardwired infrastructure in place.  These
>> advantages are so great that I could easily see targetted wiring being
>> done on lower tech worlds for specific uses.  For general usage,
>> however, wireless will probably be the more common.
>
>I suspect that 'wiring' will be around for quite a while, particularly =
as
>bandwidth increases.  Demands for the EM spectrum are only going to
>increase, and the allotments will eventually get used up.

And this is the source of the disagreement.  From what I've read
(http://news.com.com/2100-1033-932965.html and
http://news.com.com/2100-1040-840337.html are two of several recent
articles on the topic, and news.com is terribly laymanized), it
appears that ultrawideband may have considerable promise.  So
promising is it that some researchers are advocating the stance that
the airwaves are a limited resource is a myth caused by the
combination of outdated tech, legal fiction, vested economic interests
and simple inertia
(http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/business/columnists/32923=
79.htm).
This is what prompted my comments.


--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 22:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Jun 10 21:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1023754556.2225.ajackson@ping>
References: <E17HZEV-00029Q-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <ML-2.3.1023754556.2225.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020611143451.F23503@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> While this is possible, I suspect it's very unlikely, because the
> required capital investment per person is unreasonably high.

Compared with interstellar transport costs for people and equipment?

But yes; I agree that human labour is still a lot cheaper for some
things at TTL F.  Quite different at GTL 12 though.  As you quite
rightly state in your other post, TTL F really is much more like GURPS
TL10 than TL12 as stated in GURPS: Traveller.  Traveller doesn't have
an equivalent of GTL 12.

But then, there's a lot of things I'd call TL8 or 9 that don't appear
at all in Traveller *or* GURPS.  That's why I've got MTU different
from YTU and the OTU :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 22:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Mon Jun 10 21:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Imperium IMTU (long)
References: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206110503090.9736-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <008e01c21103$2f713e80$1c577b83@Gideon>

<quote>

> >obtrav - I have always pictured the Imperium as much more totalitarian
than
> >what seems to be the general consensus here on the TML and Calendar
> >Compliance was just the term I used to cover all standards.  Technology,
> >time measurement, physical measurement and Noble fealty are all covered
> >within that term...
>
> I like to disagree with this, since it makes the Imperium a very dull
place.
> It seems to me that most people like to see the Imperium, like some grand
> american empire :-) Stable, low on internal conflicts and with some
internal
> measurement of goodness in its government. I like to think of hte Imperium
as
> an exploiting malestroem that looks more like the Empire of Star Wars. The
> Zhodani are the stable happy soceity in my TU :-)
>
> >Anthony Colosetti
>
> Tommy Grav

</quote>
I've finally decided I should put forth my two cents about MTU and this will
tie in quite a number of current threads so please excuse the rambling
length...

The Empire of the Star Wars universe has always been my model for the
Imperium with the Moot equivalent to the Imperial Senate (pre-New Hope).
The Imperium IMTU is not a benevolent hands off government.  When a planet
is brought into the Imperium a Noble is assigned, usually from the local
populace and a senator is sent to the Moot to represent that planet (or more
commonly the noble who rules the world gives his vote to a higher noble in
the chain and has that noble's senator represent his world's interest on
Capital).  Every world that is a member of the Imperium is DIRECTLY
controlled by this noble (typically a Baron) though that noble has a right
to govern in any fashion he desires, so if he wishes for a representative
democracy then he is free to have his people elect his Moot Senator.  If he
wants to run a Religious Dictatorship than it is his right as an Imperial
Noble and his citizens have no recourse, unless the noble engages in Chattel
slavery, drops weapons of mass destruction on them or does not allow for
trade (which in MTU includes a quota of Citizens for Imperial Service i.e.
the Draft).

Trade is a generally mandatory device in Imperial economics.  Planets are
"dissuaded" from being self-sufficient.  Technology is standardized across
the Imperium.  Many items are designed using "Standard Design Templates" and
production facilities that are virtually identical across human space.  When
it comes to TL I pretty much throw the mechanic out the window.  TL in the
OTU has caused me no end of headaches in trying to describe the universe to
my players.  IMTU the official Imperial TL is TTL F and has been for
hundreds of years.  All ships are built at that level and can be maintained
at any Class A or B starport.  Lower TL exist in a way but they are not
codified beyond initial contact from IISS.  As soon as a world is within the
Imperium the only thing the Navy or visitors care about is the Starport
classification.  This is the PRIME determinant of what is available and at
what price anything is on a given world.

To tie in yet two final threads, there was some discussion of what class of
people "Travellers" were and weapons availability.  To make things clear,
using the current rules as they are published I strongly feel that travel
between planets is too expensive.  Small starships are too expensive for use
by anyone but the most wealthy and powerful of individuals in the whole of
the Imperium.  I've reduced the cost of new starships to a tenth of their
OTU cost and used ships are even cheaper.  The price to travel from world to
world is also MUCH cheaper (again on a scale of 1/10).  That reduces who
Travellers are from the financially elite and "Wandering Free Souls" to your
everyday businessman and casual tourist (a much more space operatic setting
IMHO).

As for the question of weapon availability I look to where in the Imperium
you are.  Near the Capital most people wouldn't even own a weapon (barring
Nobles who would carry ceremonial weapons and guards/police) out on the
frontier like the Spinward Marches weapon ownership is much more common for
personal weapons.  Military weapons are sold on the open market to bonded
security and mercenary companies.  Now some might ask why and I would point
to how conflict works within this mighty Imperium.  Law and Order (tm) is to
be maintained by local government and who best to hire for security than
ex-imperial service men and women who have the training and experience.
Nobles are allowed (and generally are expected) to fight a bit amongst
themselves as well.  As long as payment of taxes and trade goods does not
become interrupted by such infighting then the Imperial Navy does nothing.

Traveller is and always has been to me a Space Opera and not a simulation of
reality and this is just how I have come to organize my universe.  I would
love to discuss details about all of this on or off list so please I invite
comments...

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 22:51:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Jun 10 21:51:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: High TL-Low Pop
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206110455430.9736-100000@svati>
References: <20020611020816.50406.qmail@web21508.mail.yahoo.com> <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206110455430.9736-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <20020611145017.G23503@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tommy Grav wrote:
> Only a society were you have AI computers will it be possible for
> robots to manufacture every concivable part that goes into making a
> colony, and even then, should the AI itself break, outside help is
> needed.

Don't you mean should *all* the AIs break?  What you wrote is like
saying that a human society couldn't maintain itself because "should
the human break" outside help would be needed.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 10 23:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Jun 10 22:14:04 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <6ftagu4mrk95f091u6gl5ev5qfnhedjbdd@4ax.com>
References: <q9kagu0iqclu64f4fjcpastl5hgtc4cshf@4ax.com> <B92AC0C2.5E58F%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <6ftagu4mrk95f091u6gl5ev5qfnhedjbdd@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020611151354.H23503@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> True that a given frequency can only carry a certain amount of
>signal,

Actually, a given *range* of frequencies can only carry a certain
amount of signal.  A single frequency carries nothing -- you have to
modulate it (which introduces sidebands).


> appears that ultrawideband may have considerable promise.  So
> promising is it that some researchers are advocating the stance that
> the airwaves are a limited resource is a myth caused by the
> combination of outdated tech, legal fiction, vested economic
> interests and simple inertia

The same stance applies to skimming a thousandth of a percent off
every account in a large bank being "not really stealing".  UWB
increases noise by a small amount across just about *every* frequency.
No, it doesn't noticeably affect any one band.  But then, you wouldn't
miss a few cents, would you?  It doesn't bypass Shannon's theorem
limiting the amount of information that can be carried in the finite
spectrum that is transmissible.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 00:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Jun 10 23:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
Message-ID: <200206110620.XAA03470@ping.iii.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

>JR Holmes wrote:
>> True that a given frequency can only carry a certain amount of
>>signal,
>
>Actually, a given *range* of frequencies can only carry a certain
>amount of signal.  A single frequency carries nothing -- you have to
>modulate it (which introduces sidebands).

Well, there's always AM instead of FM.  Of course, there's limits to how
narrow a frequency can be.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 00:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Jun 10 23:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOECGCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>
>I like to disagree with this, since it makes the Imperium a very dull
place.
>It seems to me that most people like to see the Imperium, like some grand
>american empire :-) Stable, low on internal conflicts and with some
internal
>measurement of goodness in its government.

>I like to think of hte Imperium as an exploiting malestroem that looks more
like the Empire of Star Wars.

"Exploiting maelstrom?" that is the essence of the American empire.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 00:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 10 23:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <6ftagu4mrk95f091u6gl5ev5qfnhedjbdd@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <B92AE894.5E5C1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/10/02 9:27 PM, JR Holmes at jrholmes@wi.rr.com wrote:

> 
> True that a given frequency can only carry a certain amount of signal,
> but spread spectrum and ultrawideband do not use a single frequency.
> By spreading the data over a number of frequencies (and sharing those
> based upon the respective multiplexing schemes), it can appear that
> the overall bandwidth goes up, though an individual frequency doesn't
> exceed the calculated limit.
> 

You're talking about CDMA here.  CDMA relies on muxing the signals and
spreading them over a given band.  TDMA divides the band into discreet
channels and timeslices those.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 01:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Jun 11 00:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Atmospheric Pressures and Charcters?
In-Reply-To: <20609.131946.7n9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20609.131946.7n9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330102b92b5691f66b@[198.123.22.158]>

At 1:19 PM -0800 6/9/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>  > What type of devices can they wear to nullifiy the effects?
>
>If it *is* high enough pressure for the effects I mention above, they'd
>need a very sophisticated "filter" that would reduce the partial
>pressure of the problem gas to something safe *and* replace it with
>something that wasn't a problem.

This is actually easy.  You take a filter mask and feed in 50% 
atmosphere and 50% inert gas.

-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 01:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 11 00:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Imperium IMTU (long)
In-Reply-To: <008e01c21103$2f713e80$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <E17Hg6i-00073m-0W@anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net>

acoloset@kent.edu wrote:
> 
> Trade is a generally mandatory device in Imperial economics.  Planets are
> "dissuaded" from being self-sufficient.  Technology is standardized across
> the Imperium.  Many items are designed using "Standard Design Templates" and
> production facilities that are virtually identical across human space

 But isn't the universal use of Standard Design Templates that make everything virtually identical detrimental to interstellar trade? Why trade for that luxury item when every other planet with fabrication facilities makes exactly the same thing?

 Ben Bell


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 01:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Jun 11 00:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
In-Reply-To: <3D05190B.E6B8A59F@mindspring.com>
References: <F2728Wx1jgTGAP2tb3O0000408f@hotmail.com>
 <3D05190B.E6B8A59F@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b92b593f97df@[198.123.22.158]>

At 5:24 PM -0400 6/10/02, alan spik wrote:
>[what is the "happy fun ball"?]

>I was under the impression that it was the 1 Mdton? Tigress Battleship. Also a
>sphere. Now which one makes you  happier!

Me to.  I was lead to understand it was the Tigress....
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 01:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Jun 11 00:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
In-Reply-To: <001101c21091$46beb1c0$ac00a8c0@imogen>
References: <F2728Wx1jgTGAP2tb3O0000408f@hotmail.com>
 <3D05190B.E6B8A59F@mindspring.com> <001101c21091$46beb1c0$ac00a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <p04330104b92b59bbb55c@[198.123.22.158]>

At 3:49 PM +0100 6/10/02, Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:
>alan spik wrote:
>>  I was under the impression that it was the 1 Mdton? Tigress
>>  Battleship. Also a sphere. Now which one makes you  happier!
>
>I also thought "Happy Fun Ball" referred to the Tigress.
>
>(Minor nit-pick: the Tigress only displaces 0.5Mdtons, and it  is
>a Dreadnaught.)

"only"....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 01:41:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Jun 11 00:41:27 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
Message-ID: <p04330105b92b59d4bb3b@[198.123.22.158]>

At 5:24 PM -0400 6/10/02, alan spik wrote:
>[what is the "happy fun ball"?]

>I was under the impression that it was the 1 Mdton? Tigress Battleship. Also a
>sphere. Now which one makes you  happier!

Me to.  I was lead to understand it was the Tigress....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 02:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue Jun 11 01:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1023747932.2749.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020610232921.2078aa87.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <ML-2.3.1023747932.2749.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020611095946.009c4f02.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:
> And five years later it hits its mean time between major failures, has a
> catestrophic breakdown, and everyone dies.

But since the habitat systems were built to last, and such failures are indeed catastrophic, there are bound to be tons of warning systems constantly diagnosing the equipment and reporting possible problems. And those reports are, off course, being handled by the colonists in the same efficient and clueless manner as everything else.

This could be a really scary setting. Imagine the Travellers' reactions to critical technology being almost ritually maintained by primitives, lots of somewhat important tech existing in an almost non-working state. Some suggestions:

There tap water is green from all the algae (either harmless or the colonists have developed a resistance against them).

The lights are out in parts of the colony.

There are disturbing sounds from the ventilation.

Some interior doors have faulty motion detectors, causing them to open suddenly every now and then.

The air near the old chemical labs has a funny smell.

A large door is welded shut with signs that say "Keep Out" and "Biohazard". To the colonists, that is an unholy place, and asking too many questions about it will get you in trouble.

The Travellers need some kind of spare part that they cannot manufacture themselves, and so they are grounded in this hole for a while. The locals have the equipment but not the knowledge. Either someone aboard has the knowledge needed, or they'll have to search the huge library of Holy Books to find the information they require. Gaining the trust of the natives and coping with the surroundings should make for a great scenario.

/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 02:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue Jun 11 01:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <F118ZrPxUZSGs4uDGcH0001b65a@hotmail.com>
References: <F118ZrPxUZSGs4uDGcH0001b65a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020611100913.3d7ad6fc.jenry023@student.liu.se>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
>      Could the tech level portion of the UPP be seen an as average of the 
> entire spectrum of discrete tech levels?

The OTU standard for defining TL is, IIRC, the available jump drive technology. How TL is defined for lower tech societies is more open to interpretation.

/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 02:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 11 01:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <200206110620.XAA03470@ping.iii.com>
References: <200206110620.XAA03470@ping.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20020611181904.A24281@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Well, there's always AM instead of FM.  Of course, there's limits to
> how narrow a frequency can be.

AM also introduces sidebands which broaden the spectrum of the carrier
(just like any form of modulation).

That's *why* there are limits to how narrow a frequency can be.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 02:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Tue Jun 11 01:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCECDCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000401c21123$996732c0$4300a8c0@imogen>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> It's possibly that part of the Calendar Edict included establishment
> of a new Imperial weights and measures system, apparently the Terran
> metric system.  Sylea must have adopted the metric system during the
> Rule of Man era, as part of the process of self-terrification.

So did some of the less enthusiastic members of the early 3I call
the Syleans "terra-ists"?

Regard PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 02:38:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Tue Jun 11 01:38:25 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
References: <F77jdcK1A809gu1osrb0001ac56@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501c21123$9a05e3c0$4300a8c0@imogen>

Mr Whipsnade wrote:
> Local manufacturing ability was my take on the subject too, until
> some "kind" soul(1) pointed out high tech, low pop worlds.  Can a
> world with thousands really maintain a TL F infrastructure?

Okay, this first point is easy enough.  Take Pixie/Regina  as  an
example.  What do we know of it  from  canon  sources?  A  TL  13
society with a class A starport, a naval base, and the site of  a
major industrial facility (run by  General  Shipards).  All  this
with an apparent population of just  90  people!  The  answer  to
this riddle is that those 90 people are the *permanent* residents
of the planet (IIRC they are miners on  Pixie's  surface).  There
are many more *transiant* people who do  not  appear  in  Pixie's
stats.  (I assume they are registered as part of  the  population
of their homeworlds else the population of the 3I could  be  much
greater then preveously reported.)



> Then there's the Long Night and Hard Times to consider.  During
> each, the trade net fell apart and worlds slid down the tech level
> ladder.  If TL represents local ability, then no TL decrease would
> have occurred.

This is a tricky point.  Its true that there is a lot of TL  drop
during the Hard Times, but there was also widespread practice  of
scorched earth tactics.  How much TL drop was experienced  during
the Long Night is less well documented.  Regardless of  how  much
there was I submit that some of it was due to over-specialisation
of planetary economies, and some of it was due to financial  ruin
as producers were deprived  access  to  once  lucrative  markets.
These two factors were also in force during the Hard Times.



> Mr. Berry's "US vs. Botswana" example illustrates this rather
> well.  As he pointed out, if cut off from the rest of the world(2),
> the US could easily produce everything it needed inside its own
> borders with only a minimal hiccough in TL or the standard of
> living.  Botswana, on the other hand, would immediately experience
> famine, internal migration, and a massive drop in TL.

I'm not so sure being cut off from the rest of the world would be
such a minor thing for the US, the  world's  economies  are  much
more interlinked than  many  people  seem  to  realise.  I  would
expect a period of  hardship  atleast  as  severe  as  the  Great
Depression, and prossibly lasting indefinately.

Be that as it may,  Botswana  is  not  TL  8.  If  the  Botswanan
population have a similar life-style to the US population then it
would gain the "Ni" code rather than have a comparable TL rating.

At the risk of undermining my own argument, consider where the UK
would fit into the "US vs Botswana" example.  Getting a  computer
fixed in the UK is just as easy as in  the  US  but  very  little
computer technology is produced locally ... there's just  a  good
supply of spare parts.  What's happening  here  is  that  the  UK
economy is becoming 'over-specialised' ... gaps are appearing  in
the spectrum of goods and these  gaps  are  being  filled  in  by
traded wealth.  To clarify: "My understanding of TL  is  that  it
represents  local  manufacturing  ability,  both  capability  and
capacity in broad overall terms, but this does *not*  imply  full
self-sufficiency across the full spectrum of goods  available  at
that TL".  Eventually over-specialisation means that the UK's  TL
will drop but it will gain a "Ni" code.

Doug  Berry's  second  example,   "Cuba",   also   bears   closer
examination.   With  isolation  the  locals  have  *not*  set  up
replacement industrial capability.  Instead they  have  taken  to
making  do,  recycling,  scavenging  themselves.  Eventually  all
those 57 Fords and  59  Dodges  will  become  unmaintainable.  In
effect Cuba is on borrowed time ... Twilight and the  Long  Night
was approx 2500 years!

Where all this falls down is in system  generation.  The  way  in
which the core trade codes (Ag, In, Na, Ni) are applied  is  IMHO
flawed.  (Consider: how can a world be Ni  *and*  interdicted  at
the same time for any lengthy period?)  These codes should  be  a
byproduct of a Pocket Empires-like analysis of  a  local  economy
and not just simply based on the UWP.



Regards PLST



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 04:48:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Jun 11 03:48:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Santanocheev
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGECBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> How long before the war did  Norris request the warrant?

I was under the impression that Norris didn't have a warrant when
he took power.

It was a fiction that Strephon decided not to call him on, and
backed him up with by providing him with one after the fact, as
it had all worked our for the best.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 04:48:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Jun 11 03:48:24 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
In-Reply-To: <B92A2213.5E1FE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Tod Glenn wrote :
> on 6/10/02 3:59 AM, Peter L.S. Trevor at
> ptrevor@rctrevor.com wrote:
> > From fiction: the movie "Runaway" (Tom Selleck,
> > 1984)  had  rifle round sized steerable rockets
> > fired  from  a  handgun.  IIRC  it homed on the
> > target's heat signature.  This was in a near-future
> > setting.  Okay, so its not a shotgun, but it  is  a
> > nice  little weapon for the PCs nemesis.  ;-)
> >
>
> I'm suddenly reminded of the army's experiments with
> miniature recon drones. Some are as small as a robin.
> Add a small explosive charge and a guidance system and Voila!

Tying this back to the cell phone discussion, I was once
seriously asked by our Chinese government customers whether we
could fit an explosive device to the radios we were manufacturing
for them that could be exploded on command from the control
center.

The rationale was that a policeman's radio could fall into "the
wrong hands", so if a policeman reported the radio stolen they
could explode it and  hopefully take out a few dissidents as well
as solve a potential security problem.

It was a technically simple concept, but the issues were more
political, as if we sold radios that could be exploded remotely
they could be classed as "arms" and change all the rules on who
we could sell them to...

ObTrav is obvious. Let the PC's capture an enemy's comm unit....

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 04:48:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Jun 11 03:48:52 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Greg Bear and a language digression
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206101045130.20424-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Kiri Aradia Morgan
> On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Rob Davenport wrote:
> > On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > > I haven't read the book, but from various
> > > references I've seen, the basic idea is
> > > equivalent to the universe being a big
> > > computer program. And they tweak the
> > > parameters governing a given "object" in the
> > > "dataspace".
> > >
> > > In short, to move you from New York to San
> > > Francisco "all" I'd need to do is change the
> > > location decriptor of the data structure that
> > > *is* you.
> >
> > That's what I'd thought he was saying.
>
> Hm, this reminds me of the magick system in Diane
> Duane's Wizardry books.
>
> That's kind of how THEY do it.

In White Wolf's "Mage : the Ascension" this is the magic form
utilized by a sub-group of the Virtual Adepts, known as the
"Reality Hackers".

Of course, if what you experience as reality _is_ just a big
computer program, you get "The Matrix", and such "reality
hacking" is simple, as Neo found out.

> > > *How* one can manipulate the structure of reality
> > > at this level is the trick.
> >
> > And that's exactly my conceptual disconnect as well. :)
> > Maybe it never was explained in any more detail.
>
> It's magick.  As in, "any sufficiently advanced
> technology..."  ^_~

And magik, as everyone knows, is merely the exercise of the
mage's willpower.

Excuse me while I fix this computer program I am working on with
a small blood sacrifice.
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 04:49:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Jun 11 03:49:17 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20020611151354.H23503@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Timothy Little wrote :
> JR Holmes wrote:
> > True that a given frequency can only carry a certain
> > amount of signal,
>
> Actually, a given *range* of frequencies can only
> carry a certain amount of signal.  A single frequency
> carries nothing -- you have to modulate it (which
> introduces sidebands).

To be pedantic, you don't _have_ to modulate to communicate, and
you _can_ communicate with a single frequency (presuming you can
generate one).

When it's on it represents a single binary '1' and when it is off
a '0'.

(ignoring for the moment annoying little things like switching
harmonics)

<snip>
> It doesn't bypass Shannon's theorem
> limiting the amount of information that can be carried
> in the finite spectrum that is transmissible.

Shannon's theorem, though, _is_ bypassd by modern digital
communications, as the theorem you're talking about here only
covers raw, uncompressed, data.

A 56K modem pumps around 56K of information down an audio line
that has a theoretical Shannon limit of 2.4K data bits

Not that Shannon was unaware of this, as he also spoke about the
difference between the information content of a signal and the
data content.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 04:49:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Jun 11 03:49:43 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92ABEB7.5E58C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Tod Glenn wrote :
> on 6/10/02 6:54 PM, Terry Carlino at carlino@cox.net wrote:
>
> > This sounds very similar to me of the way in which
> > standard digital T1 and T3 lines already handle
> > communication. Most people don't realize that their
> > voice communication is already compressed and sent
> > in microsecond burst along the communication trunks
> > to be expanded at the other end, rather than
> > sent at audio frequencies like old fashion radio.
>
> Only in digital systems.  There are still a few
> analogue systems out there.

Not on the backbone,  which is what the original poster was
talking about.

There are no analogue T1s.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 04:50:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Jun 11 03:50:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <002101c210ee$0709f870$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Anthony Colosetti wrote :

> Well I'm not sure about where you live but I know for
> a fact that our local paper posts daily in the
> classifieds that according to  state law it is
> illegal to use anything but imperial measurement for
> the sale of wood

Isn't that against the US Constitution?
<grin>

And there _are_ no Imperial measurements for the sale of wood.

(The cord, which is the only specific non-metric wood measurement
I'm familiar with, is not actually an "Imperial" measurement, as
it isn't on the standards roster like the other's)

> On a personal note I went to a local hardware
> store and  asked for a tape measure
> that was marked in centimeters and was told "Where do
> you think you are? This is America!" (I'm not joking!)
> I discussed this event with a friend who works on
> houses for a living and his remark was that under
> no circumstances will the US ever switch from using
> imperial units until they are first no longer taught
> in local schools and  second, laws are passed to
> forbid builders from using non-metric units.

The funniest part of all this is that you'd think the US
would be keen to rid itself of the reminders of being
ruled by the British Empire, that's why they're called
"Imperial" units after all.

And even funnier, US "Imperial" does not even follow
the original Imperial units properly.

So the US is stuck using a bastardized version of an
antiquated system forced on them by their last
overlords, and they're _proud_ of it!

That's like the Solomani insisting on using Vilani
measurments when everyone else in the universe has
adopted Hiver.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 04:50:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Jun 11 03:50:31 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  VRF Shotgun?
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKECECEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote :
> >From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> >
> > I'm suddenly reminded of the army's experiments with
> > miniature recon drones. Some are as small as a robin.
> > Add a small explosive charge and a guidance
> >system and Voila!
>
> In The Dead Pool, the last Dirty Harry movie (which
> they were showing last night), there is a chase scene
> involving a remotely controlled toy car that
> is carrying explosives.

In Gerry Anderson's early seventies TV Show, "Joe 90", the
eponymous hero takes out some bad guys by placing a grenade in
the arms of a toy robot and having it walk into the room where
they are located.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 05:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 04:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1023737853.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20611.032322.8x1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Mike West writes:
>> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>>> Of course, they're no harder to explain than worlds like Retinae
>>> (0416 Spinward Marches, E8C69AA-5).  Does anyone really think that
>>> TL 5 allows supporting 9 billion people on a world with a corrosive
>>> atmosphere?

Actually, yes. That's 1900-1939 tech. Which could deal with that,
though maybe not as cheaply or easily as higher TLs.

>> Funny you would pick that planet ...
>
> Hm..and gee, the same handwave for Gyomar.  Guess we have to limit
> ourselves to places like Tondoul (E5136A7-4); 7 million people at TL
> 4 with only a trace atmosphere...

1860-1900 tech. Again, doable.

Air pumps are TL *2*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 05:17:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 04:17:26 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <20020611095946.009c4f02.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20611.034123.0R0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:
>> And five years later it hits its mean time between major failures, has a
>> catestrophic breakdown, and everyone dies.
>
> But since the habitat systems were built to last, and such failures are 
> indeed catastrophic, there are bound to be tons of warning systems 
> constantly diagnosing the equipment and reporting possible problems. And 
> those reports are, off course, being handle
> d by the colonists in the same efficient and clueless manner as everything 
> else.
>
> This could be a really scary setting. Imagine the Travellers' reactions to 
> critical technology being almost ritually maintained by primitives, lots of 
> somewhat important tech existing in an almost non-working state. Some 
> suggestions:

Why the assumption that the life support *isn't* TL4? 

Hell, I think I could design life support maintainable at TL *2*...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 05:17:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 04:17:57 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <20020610232921.2078aa87.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20611.033535.1d0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:
>> Hm..and gee, the same handwave for Gyomar.  Guess we have to limit 
> ourselves to
>> places like Tondoul (E5136A7-4); 7 million people at TL 4 with only a trace
>> atmosphere...
>
> Obviously a society that has degenerated and maintain the life support 
> systems by using technical manuals. They don't have any real idea what that 
> blue button does, but they still press it once every eight hours.

Hardly. TL 4 is quite capable of maintaining a sealed environment and
functioning life support with tech available on Earth during the period
in question (1860-1900)

It'll be clunky and "ugly" to *our* eyes, but Victorian era tech was
more than up to it. Remember, this is the era when hardhat diving suits
were invented (well, actually they were invented in 1840) and caissons
with airlocks were used for work on the bottom of rivers and in
harbors. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 05:18:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 04:18:20 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92AC5C0.5E592%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20611.035250.5C2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Agreed.  High tech, difficult to manufacture items are really the only
> things that make sense to trade over interstellar distances.  I don't see
> how shipping anything like raw material or foodstuff could ever be
> economically viable for trade.
>
> The question is, what do the low techers have to give in trade for those
> high tech goodies that can be economically shipped back?

The equivalent of the old "spice" trade and the Silk Road.

Natural materials that are valued for one reason or another. And are
simpler to import than to duplicate.

Art is another one, though not as reliable.

Spices, furs, woods, gemstones, wines/liquors, etc. Those are what low
tech worlds (and some high tech ones!) will be exporting.


> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> -- 
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 05:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Jun 11 04:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B9296DAB.5E173%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEFDHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Tod Glenn wrote :

> Well, the consortium that Qualcomm was involved in
> utilized a different number of satellites mainly
> because they planned to  not cover the entire
> globe, but yes, you are correct.  Beside Iridium and
> Globalnet, I know of no other plan to provide
> worldwide phone service by  satellite.

What about the one financed by Bill Gates ?
That had a different name than GlobalNet last time I looked at
it, and it was serious enough that they were considering buying
the Iridium ground stations.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 06:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Tue Jun 11 05:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] a little help
References: <20020610025209.B70E527A4A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D05E834.6668C89B@earthlink.net>

General Turokan transmitted:
> 
> ..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---
> -.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--
> ....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
>   ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...

"I will call on the Lord, who is worthy to be praised!"
 :)

If anyone is interested in Morse code, especially in how the following
sounds ("Mayday!  This is the Free Trader Beowulf.  We are under
attack!"),
play with the Java applet at: http://www.babbage.demon.co.uk/morse.html

Kinda neat to hear the differences between SOS, Mayday, and GK.

The applet can also be used off-line for those of you lucky enough to
have a laptop during Traveller sessions.

David Smart


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 06:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 11 05:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1023737853.1051.ajackson@ping>
References: <200206101349.AA3997932@caddocourt.com>
Message-ID: <3D069465.21337.12EF74C@localhost>

On 10 Jun 2002, at 12:37, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Hm..and gee, the same handwave for Gyomar.  Guess we have to limit
> ourselves to places like Tondoul (E5136A7-4); 7 million people at TL 4
> with only a trace atmosphere...

No problems, you can easily support a vacuum colony with 
Victorian Tech (TL4), possibly with Renaissance Tech (TL3)

Air Pumps = TL2
Hydraulics = TL3
Airtight seals = TL3
Cracking Oxygen from Ice = TL4?
Sealed suits with life support = TL4
Electrical generators = TL4

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 07:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Jun 11 06:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <20610.133512.9Y1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20610.133512.9Y1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <m3vg8qyn6s.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>
> > Don't try to make _me_ do extra work to support _your_ prejudices...
> 
> But *I'm* right! :-)

*grin*

> And I'm not trying to make you do extra work. You did that yourself
> when you converted from Kelvin to Rankine.

That was to correct the inconsistancy of using AU, parsecs, miles and
Kelvin (I'm using GURPS Traveller rules as the underlying basis for
the code; eventually I'll do CT generation, but that'll just be an
overlay).  From here on out everything's very nice and
straightforward.

Seriously, I believe that if you tried either the C or Scheme
interface to travlib that you'd find it quite nice to use.  It's
really very nice.

IIRC you use a Mac.  I'd _love_ to know if gtk+ and travlib will
compile thereon.  I know that the GIMP has been ported, but it looks
like the MacGIMP does not offer downloads but only purchases.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Anesti!  Alithos Anesti!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 07:15:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Tue Jun 11 06:15:40 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <B92A2213.5E1FE%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <20020611131421.GA925@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Tue, Jun 11, 2002 at 11:03:43PM +1200, Frank Pitt wrote:
> Tying this back to the cell phone discussion, I was once
> seriously asked by our Chinese government customers whether we
> could fit an explosive device to the radios we were manufacturing
> for them that could be exploded on command from the control
> center.

Mossad. Not too long ago (several years, I think), the Mossad bagged
a Palestinian biggie this way. They got him to swap cell phones on the
pretext that his existing phone was defective. Then they called him up
and said something like "This is the Mossad. Goodbye", pressed # (or
whatever), and blew his head apart...

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 07:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Tue Jun 11 06:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Greg Bear and a language digression
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <3D05FBC6.3050906@gmx.net>

Frank Pitt wrote:

>Kiri Aradia Morgan
>  
>
>>On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Rob Davenport wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>I haven't read the book, but from various
>>>>references I've seen, the basic idea is
>>>>equivalent to the universe being a big
>>>>computer program. And they tweak the
>>>>parameters governing a given "object" in the
>>>>"dataspace".
>>>>
>>>>In short, to move you from New York to San
>>>>Francisco "all" I'd need to do is change the
>>>>location decriptor of the data structure that
>>>>*is* you.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>That's what I'd thought he was saying.
>>>      
>>>
>>Hm, this reminds me of the magick system in Diane
>>Duane's Wizardry books.
>>
>>That's kind of how THEY do it.
>>    
>>
>
>In White Wolf's "Mage : the Ascension" this is the magic form
>utilized by a sub-group of the Virtual Adepts, known as the
>"Reality Hackers".
>
>Of course, if what you experience as reality _is_ just a big
>computer program, you get "The Matrix", and such "reality
>hacking" is simple, as Neo found out.
>
>  
>
>>>>*How* one can manipulate the structure of reality
>>>>at this level is the trick.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>And that's exactly my conceptual disconnect as well. :)
>>>Maybe it never was explained in any more detail.
>>>      
>>>
>>It's magick.  As in, "any sufficiently advanced
>>technology..."  ^_~
>>    
>>
>
>And magik, as everyone knows, is merely the exercise of the
>mage's willpower.
>
>Excuse me while I fix this computer program I am working on with
>a small blood sacrifice.
><grin>
>
>Frankie
>  
>
I've found chicken is a good sacrifice for this sort of thing...KFC 
works well, Kingsleys (local chain) is good too...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 07:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Tue Jun 11 06:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Imperium IMTU (long)
References: <E17Hg6i-00073m-0W@anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <001101c2114b$8e9257d0$1c577b83@Gideon>

<quote>

> acoloset@kent.edu wrote:
> >
> > Trade is a generally mandatory device in Imperial economics.  Planets
are
> > "dissuaded" from being self-sufficient.  Technology is standardized
across
> > the Imperium.  Many items are designed using "Standard Design Templates"
and
> > production facilities that are virtually identical across human space
>
>  But isn't the universal use of Standard Design Templates that make
everything virtually identical detrimental to interstellar trade? Why trade
for that luxury item when every other planet with fabrication facilities
makes exactly the same thing?
>
>  Ben Bell

</quote>

First, luxury items are not items pumped out of a SDT, but you and I may
differ on what is a luxury item.  Being an American I don't define a TV,
microwave or a computer as a luxury item but as simple home appliances which
virtually every home will have no matter the location.  Luxury items are
items like antiques, art, alcohol, rare and exotic foods, etc.  Certain
cultures will pay well for these type of goods and others will not.  They
are not necessary for everyday life.  Free Traders will actually specialize
in such trade because bulk traders are tied up in shipping raw materials to
industrial planets and then taking finished goods produced by SDTs back to
the planets that produced the raw materials where the only manufacturing
might be design templates for repair parts.

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 07:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Jun 11 06:48:03 2002
Subject: Happy Fun Balls  was Re: [TML] jump question
Message-ID: <002a01c2114f$1fa9b760$ac5d8690@computer>

alan spik wrote:
> [what is the "happy fun ball"?]

If it helps to differentiate between the Merc Cruiser and the Tigress, the
latter is sometimes designated the Honking Big Happy Fun Ball.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 07:48:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Jun 11 06:48:26 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
References: <20020611111904.B5CB327B03@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002b01c2114f$20519020$ac5d8690@computer>

> From: "Peter L.S. Trevor"
> Doug  Berry's  second  example,   "Cuba",   also   bears   closer
> examination.   With  isolation  the  locals  have  *not*  set  up
> replacement industrial capability.  Instead they  have  taken  to
> making  do,  recycling,  scavenging  themselves.  Eventually  all
> those 57 Fords and  59  Dodges  will  become  unmaintainable.  In
> effect Cuba is on borrowed time ... Twilight and the  Long  Night
> was approx 2500 years!

Cuba is very interesting.  They are actually very technologically advanced
in some areas, and very backwards in others.  It's true that they have to
recycle, scavenge and improvise a lot, but on the other hand their
biotechnology is first rate.  That's why the US government was telling lies
about them selling chemical weapons a few weeks ago - the US doesn't want
Cuba to be able to make money out of one of the few areas of their economy
that they are competitive in.

One of Cuba's other "high-tech" industries, incidentally, is organic
farming.  They've had to develop agricultural methods that weren't dependent
on oil and other chemicals.  Potentially/eventually this could be a powerful
asset to other Third World countries.  Of course, this would cut into the
profits of companies like Monsanto...

Not all technology involves Honking Big Machines.  I've always found it fun
to try to design worlds that relied on "soft" "green" technologies.  The
problem is that eventually you do need the HBMs.  But that's OK, because if
you are good enough at bio-technology, you can become good at non-Carbon
based "bio-tech" too.  "Non-Carbon based bio-tech" can come horribly close
to being a believable form of nanotechnology.

Don't mess with Space Hippies.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 08:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Tue Jun 11 07:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Cell Phone
In-Reply-To: <20020611131421.GA925@saltmine.radix.net>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAMEAKDEAA.redroach@pobox.com>

Mossad was so good at the cell phone trick that it no longer works as well.
THey would disrupt the target's cell phone and when he brought it in for
repairs they would 1. replace the phone or 2)booby trap his old phone.
Originally they would then call the target up ask for him, then 'boom'.
Certain enemies of Israel then stopped answering their phones. It was much
easier to have a family member or hireling answer it first.

I seem to recall the same type of trick by mossad involving laptops?

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 09:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Jun 11 08:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206110050300.9736-100000@svati>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206110050300.9736-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <m3zny14zxk.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no> writes:
> 
> I agree with that, but because something is in a book, doesn't mean
> that you or I understand what is in there.

So you get the introductory book and read that first.  Intelligent
people can and do teach themselves from books.  Sure, it's slower
going and more error-prone than having a teacher, but it's possible,
and that's all that matters.

> My point is that unless the goverment works to stay at a certain TL,
> they will quickly start down the road to decline.

Why would the _government_ need to stay at that level?  Most
scientific advancement for the last 500 years has been pursued by
independently wealthy crackpots (many of whom, granted, were parts of
governments, at least theoretically).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos harjav i merelotz!  Orhniale harutjun Christosi!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 09:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Tue Jun 11 08:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Banes of modern tech.
Message-ID: <F1515tf8nTI1oqhWBro00005b68@hotmail.com>

In Digest 588, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said

<<SNIP discussion of relevant but non-pertinent facts>>
>Shorter wavelengths give you
>smaller antennas, but at the cost of possible problems with usability
>in buildings.
<<SNIP rest of message>>

You say that last part of the sentence as though it is a bad thing.

ObTrav: The PCs are happily chatting away on their comms gear when the 
restaurant patron at the adjacent table asks them if they would prefer to 
switch their [EXPLETIVE DELETED] phones off, or he will stick them somewhere 
unpleasant...

Jeff.  (Still - thankfully - Unique.)

"So let me get this straight - you couldn't get the floppy out so you tried 
pulling on it with a pair of pliers.  Then you squirted melted butter in and 
managed to pull the mangled floppy out.  And you want us to replace your pc 
or you'll sue us?"

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 09:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Jun 11 08:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Imperium IMTU (long)
In-Reply-To: <001101c2114b$8e9257d0$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <20020611151915.48E6427AF6@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/11/02 at 09:26 AM,  "Anthony Colosetti" <acoloset@kent.edu>
said:

>First, luxury items are not items pumped out of a SDT, but you and I
>may differ on what is a luxury item.  Being an American I don't
>define a TV, microwave or a computer as a luxury item but as simple
>home appliances which virtually every home will have no matter the
>location.  Luxury items are items like antiques, art, alcohol, rare
>and exotic foods, etc.  Certain cultures will pay well for these type
>of goods and others will not.  They are not necessary for everyday
>life.  Free Traders will actually specialize in such trade because
>bulk traders are tied up in shipping raw materials to industrial
>planets and then taking finished goods produced by SDTs back to the
>planets that produced the raw materials where the only manufacturing
>might be design templates for repair parts.

In addition, you can take those simple home appliances and customize
them giving them varying styles. Yes, my computer is a very standard
model made of "off the shelf" components, but it has (not really, but
for use as an example) (1) a silvered titanium case with chrome
molding, (2) custom inset fans for extra cooling, (3) a tweeked cpu
providing 10% faster operation, (4) a second ethernet card, (5) a high
end video card supplimenting the "on board" video system, (6) a USB2
expansion card, (7) wireless mouse, keyboard and network connections
and devices, and (8) a surround sound system. These things are a
mixture of non-standard customizations and add-on features that give
that particular computer system "added-value" even though, for the
most part, it's nothing special. 

A better example might be the automobile, just how much difference is
there *really* outside of the exterior and interior styling?  And
still how many brands and models of automobile are there?  

But, IMTU, a free trader can pick up a load of ball point pens or
toaster ovens on one world and sell them on another, and if conditions
are right make a profit. Now for simple non-differentiated items those
profitable conditions are going to be much more rare than for more
unique items, but they can and do exist. That's what the Trader skill
is all about...identifying the items, locations and conditions that go
together to make a profit. Just as the Broker skill is used to
negotiate low costs for buying and high selling prices. Maybe better
names for those two skills would be Market Analysis and Bargaining,
but Trader and Broker are traditional, so I'm keeping them. <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 09:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Jun 11 08:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20611.035250.5C2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020611153107.33051279E8@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/11/02 at 03:52 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
said:

>In mail you write:

>> Agreed.  High tech, difficult to manufacture items are really the only
>> things that make sense to trade over interstellar distances.  I don't see
>> how shipping anything like raw material or foodstuff could ever be
>> economically viable for trade.
>>
>> The question is, what do the low techers have to give in trade for those
>> high tech goodies that can be economically shipped back?

>The equivalent of the old "spice" trade and the Silk Road.

>Natural materials that are valued for one reason or another. And are
>simpler to import than to duplicate.

>Art is another one, though not as reliable.

>Spices, furs, woods, gemstones, wines/liquors, etc. Those are what
>low tech worlds (and some high tech ones!) will be exporting.

Add natural fibers with special properties, specialty textiles,
ornimental plants, pet animals, perfumes and scents, specialty meats
(think Alaskan King Crab, Maine Lobster, Kobe Beef), vegetables and
fruits...that sort of thing. 

In addition, unless robotics makes this uneconomic, I suspect many low
to mid tech worlds do a thriving trade in the fabrication trade. High
tech parts are shipped in and the mid to low tech workers put them
together. And in IMTU, robotics isn't up to the task economically, so
there are a lot of Mexico's and Phillipines scattered around.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 09:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Tue Jun 11 08:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Emerging from Jump
Message-ID: <F74C2duiiQ03FcDddXA0001d5ae@hotmail.com>

Sentients of the TML, I beg your indulgence.

I have just finished reading one of the latest Battletech novels where the 
author came up with a novel (no pun intended) plot device; when one of the 
B'Tech Jumpships jumps (30 light years instantaneously, as far as passangers 
and crew are concerned), it casts an infrared "shadow" at the point it will 
emerge from for a variable length of time but starting when jump is 
initiated, depending upon its mass and how close to the 30ly limit the jump 
is.

Leaving aside the question of why this effect has never been noted before, 
what sort of changes would something like this (having two or three minutes 
notice of an impending arrival) wreak upon the varied Traveller 'universes'? 
  (Other than making life a heck of a lot easier for ethically-challenged 
merchants, that is!)

Jeff.

"I don't care if this is your spaceship.  You are *not* coming in here with 
muddy boots on!"



_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 10:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Jun 11 09:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <200206110000.IEL05988@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200206110000.IEL05988@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3vg8p4wrm.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:
> 
> If we were citizens of Switzerland, and neighbors in the same unit,
> we could apply for a government-backed loan to buy a MILAN anti-tank
> missile complete with thermal sight.

Wanna split a duplex in the Alps?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Crist aras!  Crist solice aras!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 10:16:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Tue Jun 11 09:16:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <003101c21163$3682c710$1c577b83@Gideon>

<quote>


> Anthony Colosetti wrote :
>
> > Well I'm not sure about where you live but I know for
> > a fact that our local paper posts daily in the
> > classifieds that according to  state law it is
> > illegal to use anything but imperial measurement for
> > the sale of wood
>
> Isn't that against the US Constitution?
> <grin>

</quote>

How so?

<quote>

> And there _are_ no Imperial measurements for the sale of wood.
>
> (The cord, which is the only specific non-metric wood measurement
> I'm familiar with, is not actually an "Imperial" measurement, as
> it isn't on the standards roster like the other's)
>

</quote>

hmmm...again maybe a local thing, but I was taught in school that the cord
was the cubic equivalent of measuring land by acres.  A cord is equal to 128
cubic feet.  Metric systems use their length terms for measures of area and
cubic area (ex. 2 square meters or 5 cubic meters) where the Imperial
measurement system has specific names for area and cubic area (acre, rood
and cord).  Due to the influence of the metric system and the current trend
in education most people have become used to using metric terminology with
imperial units.  My grandfather used to refer to the size of his shed by the
number of cords it could hold, never once refering to square footage...

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 10:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (P-O Bergstedt)
Date: Tue Jun 11 09:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine
Message-ID: <3D0622D9.C6795448@berka.com>

Hi!

Just for fun, there is now a 
LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine at my site at URL:
http://zho.berka.com/goodies/lbb_render.html

Yes, I know it is a quite useless webpage, but
at least I thought it was fun...

  _____         _____   P-O Bergstedt
 /     \       /     \  Stockholm/SWEDEN
/ * A o \_____/       \_____
\   @   /     \       / Visit the Zhodani Base:
 \BERKA/       \_____/  http://zho.berka.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 10:17:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun 11 09:17:29 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <m3zny14zxk.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B92B7075.5E67A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/11/02 8:07 AM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> 
> Why would the _government_ need to stay at that level?  Most
> scientific advancement for the last 500 years has been pursued by
> independently wealthy crackpots (many of whom, granted, were parts of
> governments, at least theoretically).

Or even nor so wealthy types, particularly if they saw technology as a means
to get ahead and join the ranks of the wealthy.  Or people who are just
curious.  The government has a poor reputation of supporting 'pure' science,
where most of the real innovations come from.  Governments tend to focus on
'useful' science, which is often not all that useful (except to
governments).
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 10:18:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Jun 11 09:18:07 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <000501c21123$9a05e3c0$4300a8c0@imogen>
References: <F77jdcK1A809gu1osrb0001ac56@hotmail.com>
 <000501c21123$9a05e3c0$4300a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <m3r8jd4woo.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com> writes:
>
> Getting a computer fixed in the UK is just as easy as in the US but
> very little computer technology is produced locally ... there's just
> a good supply of spare parts.  What's happening here is that the UK
> economy is becoming 'over-specialised' ... gaps are appearing in the
> spectrum of goods and these gaps are being filled in by traded
> wealth.

Not necessarily overly-specialised; it's just comapritive advantage at
work.  It makes more sense for the US to design chips, the Taiwanese
to make 'em and the Brits to buy 'em.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Krishhti Unjall!  Vertet Unjall!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 10:21:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Jun 11 09:21:05 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
Message-ID: <200206111620.IFT00018@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Michael Houghton says
>Mossad. Not too long ago (several years, I think), the 
>Mossad bagged a Palestinian biggie this way. They got him to 
>swap cell phones on the pretext that his existing phone was 
>defective. Then they called him up and said something 
>like "This is the Mossad. Goodbye", pressed # (or
>whatever), and blew his head apart...
>

The first Palestinian killed by a phone (land line) bomb (in 
Italy) was in the immediate aftermath of the Munich massacre 
(the 1970s).  Mossad had (has?) a policy that the person 
being whacked has to identify themself.  In this case, they 
called him, pretending to be an Italian journalist.  They 
offered to call the next day, after they were sure it was 
him, and they recognized his voice.  At night, they entered 
the apartment when he was out, and put a small charge in the 
receiver. The next day, from across the street, they called 
him from a pay phone.  They asked him if this was really ... 
he said, "Yes", and then they set it off.  The explosion was 
just large enough to craze the window but not blow it out, 
and the other two people in the room were stunned but not 
injured.  The target, on the other hand, suffered fatal 
injuries, as he was holding the bomb to his head.

The cell phone assassinations were numerous through the 90s, 
with Israel killing a bombmaker known as the Engineer, and 
many others across not only the West Bank, but Lebanon as 
well.  I think that using a cell phone in certain career 
paths is right up there with starting your car (or, as in a 
recent movie, using your cigarette lighter).
________________
"Yes, it's your fault this time.  You had your chance the first time around to donate to the Anakin Skywalker Acting Fund."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 10:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun 11 09:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20020611153107.33051279E8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B92B72C0.5E684%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/11/02 8:31 AM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

>> Spices, furs, woods, gemstones, wines/liquors, etc. Those are what
>> low tech worlds (and some high tech ones!) will be exporting.
> 
> Add natural fibers with special properties, specialty textiles,
> ornimental plants, pet animals, perfumes and scents, specialty meats
> (think Alaskan King Crab, Maine Lobster, Kobe Beef), vegetables and
> fruits...that sort of thing.
> 
> In addition, unless robotics makes this uneconomic, I suspect many low
> to mid tech worlds do a thriving trade in the fabrication trade. High
> tech parts are shipped in and the mid to low tech workers put them
> together. And in IMTU, robotics isn't up to the task economically, so
> there are a lot of Mexico's and Phillipines scattered around.

The problem is one of scale.  The typical trader is only 200-500 tons.  In
terms of a planet's economy, this is a paltry figure, particularly given the
cost of the ships themselves (not to mention operational costs).

When calculating the cost of imported goods, one need to add in these costs.
It will take a huge cost difference in order to make any of these low cost
goods worthwhile to transport.

And low tech worlds ability to fabricate goods will limit their value on
higher tech worlds.  How many automobiles made in the third world are sold
in the first world?

Things like clothing are only economic to import because of huge container
ships that can move products for miniscule cost.

Also, there's still the matter of trade balance.  How many lobsters will you
have to ship to a high tech world to balance the cost of 500 tons of high
tech electronics which cannot be produced locally.  And what's to stop some
local on a high tech world from setting up a high tech aquaculture to breed
lobsters locally at a lesser cost?  If it can be done for a profit, someone
will do it.

Yes, it's cannon that interstellar trade is common, even for the most
mundane items.  But does it really make economic sense?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 10:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Donald McKinney)
Date: Tue Jun 11 09:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine
Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E036684F5@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>

--=_IS_MIME_Boundary
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

This creation, my good sir, is great!  I've always envied your "adventure" and "supplement" covers.


DonM.
------------------------

Just for fun, there is now a 
LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine at my site at URL:
http://zho.berka.com/goodies/lbb_render.html

Yes, I know it is a quite useless webpage, but
at least I thought it was fun...
--=_IS_MIME_Boundary
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The information contained in this message is proprietary of Amdocs,

protected from disclosure, and may be privileged.

The information is intended to be conveyed only to the designated recipient(s)

of the message. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,

you are hereby notified that any dissemination, use, distribution or copying of 

this communication is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. 

If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately

by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.

Thank you.

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--=_IS_MIME_Boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 10:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun 11 09:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92B7075.5E67A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B92B74F0.5E68C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

In the opinion of the list, what is the minimal imported sustainable
technology?  Certainly, there is some technological level that can be kept
operating for a good period of time even when it is not produced locally.

I recently went to a local museum that had an antique steam engine (still
running).  It was designed to be sold to farmers who were expected to be
able to maintain it for many years locally, even though it was produced on
the higher tech east coast of the US.  Said stem engine was at least 100
years old and the curator said it could be expected to run another 100 years
with minimal maintenance.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 10:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Colin)
Date: Tue Jun 11 09:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine
In-Reply-To: <3D0622D9.C6795448@berka.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEFEDPAA.tml@jtas.org>

That's the most useless thing I've seen in a very long time. Thank you!
________________________________________

This is living...
   This is style...
      This is elegance,
         By the mile!

O the posh posh travelling life the travelling life for me
First cabin and captain's table regal company
Whenever I'm bored I travel abroad, but ever so properly
Port out, starboard home, posh with a capital P-O-S-H, posh

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>
> Just for fun, there is now a
> LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine at my site at URL:
> http://zho.berka.com/goodies/lbb_render.html
>
> Yes, I know it is a quite useless webpage, but
> at least I thought it was fun...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 10:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 09:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92B74F0.5E68C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023813955.5758.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> In the opinion of the list, what is the minimal imported sustainable
> technology?

What exactly does the question mean?  I suspect just about any TL can be
maintained with once a year supply shipments.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 10:49:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Jun 11 09:49:39 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
Message-ID: <200206111647.IFT05572@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn asks
>Subject: Re: [TML] hi tech versus low tech  
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>
>In the opinion of the list, what is the minimal imported 
>sustainable technology?  Certainly, there is some 
>technological level that can be kept
>operating for a good period of time even when it is not 
>produced locally.
>

Mechanical devices seem to be simple to repair, as long as 
they aren't too small (smaller than the inside of mechanical 
watch) or too high stress (turbine blades for advanced 
fighters).  Most combustion engines (a firearm is a simple 
combustion engine) are fairly easy to keep in repair.

Electronics generally require spare parts.  I don't know many 
people who could fashion even a vacuum tube.  But if your 
planet has some fabrication facilities for spare parts - you 
may be in luck for some time, even if you couldn't invent the 
same item.  There's a big difference between being able to 
invent an item, and being able to produce it.

If we take a typical resort such as the Caymans, their 
ability to invent items is rather limited.  Even their 
ability to produce maintenance parts for items is severely 
limited (not because they might not be engineers, but for 
economical and resource reasons).  But they still have cell 
phones, connections to the Internet, electric blenders, etc.

For production purposes they might be considered really low 
tech - TL 5?  But a tourist still lives at the current global 
tech level there.
________________
"Yes, it's your fault this time.  You had your chance the first time around to donate to the Anakin Skywalker Acting Fund."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 10:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun 11 09:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1023813955.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B92B78C1.5E697%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/11/02 9:45 AM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn writes:
>> In the opinion of the list, what is the minimal imported sustainable
>> technology?
> 
> What exactly does the question mean?  I suspect just about any TL can be
> maintained with once a year supply shipments.

Sorry.  I'll rephrase.  What is the maximum imported tech level that could
be sustained without resupply for 100 years?  Assuming  the locals made a
good effort to maintain it.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 11:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 10:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <3D069465.21337.12EF74C@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023814795.113.ajackson@ping>

a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:


> Cracking Oxygen from Ice = TL4?
Requires electrical power; not sure where that is on the traveller TL scale,
TL4 may be ok.  Also requires a power source which doesn't use oxygen, which
means either nuclear or photovoltaic, either of which is TL 6.

Of course, this isn't the method you'd use.  Most habitats probably use plants
for air, and all you need for that is the ability to build large
vacuum-resistant windows, which is dependent on the ability to build really big
sheets of tough glass (plus the ability to build ventilation systems, but
that's lower tech).  This might actually be TL 4.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 11:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 10:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <20020611142740.E23503@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023815091.7515.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> > That reminds me of something I've been trying to figure out. For
> > each tech level, what is the minimum size of the population needed
> > to maintain it?
> 
> My guess is that it peaks somehwere around TL 8-9, where technology is
> highly complex, but not smart enough to do any of the work of
> maintaining itself.

My guess is it depends on what you mean.  The total capital costs for building
the infrastructure probably increase continually and rapidly with TL, but to a
certain degree people can be replaced with additional capital costs.  In
practice, the economics of scale probably mean it's pointless to make
technology self-sustaining for worlds with populations of less than in the
hundreds of millions.

Canonically, Sabmiqys maintains TL 17 with _no_ people, though that's imperial
anti-AI bias at work.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 11:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Jun 11 10:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92B72C0.5E684%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B92B72C0.5E684%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3elfd4twc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> And low tech worlds ability to fabricate goods will limit their
> value on higher tech worlds.  How many automobiles made in the third
> world are sold in the first world?

Aren't a lot of our cars in the US being made in Mexico?  Perhaps I'm
completely wrong, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Ha Mashiyach qam!  Ken hu qam!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 11:18:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Jun 11 10:18:28 2002
Subject: cell phones (was Re: [TML] VRF Shotgun?)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAECICEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>The cell phone assassinations were numerous through the 90s,
>with Israel killing a bombmaker known as the Engineer, and
>many others across not only the West Bank, but Lebanon as
>well.  I think that using a cell phone in certain career
>paths is right up there with starting your car (or, as in a
>recent movie, using your cigarette lighter).

Thanks everyone for these great ideas.  I'm running a campaign involving the
Roupian mafia on Regina, and they will of course try to whack their enemies
in creative ways -- and be whacked in return.

--Glenn

"Ah, my commdot's vibrating.  Do I answer it or not?"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 11:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Jun 11 10:27:03 2002
Subject: cell phones (was Re: [TML] VRF Shotgun?)
Message-ID: <200206111726.IFV01219@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>Thanks everyone for these great ideas.  I'm running a 
>campaign involving the Roupian mafia on Regina, and they 
>will of course try to whack their enemies
>in creative ways -- and be whacked in return.
>

Don't forget the obvious -- there is a lot of historical 
precedent for rigging small arms.  I remember reading about 
hand grenades with "short" fuses, and small arms ammunition 
that had the bullet pulled, the powder replaced with C4, and 
the bullet re-seated.  Somewhere in mid-clip, the firer gets 
an instant field strip.
________________
"Yes, it's your fault this time.  You had your chance the first time around to donate to the Anakin Skywalker Acting Fund."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 11:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 10:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92B78C1.5E697%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023816587.1051.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> 
> Sorry.  I'll rephrase.  What is the maximum imported tech level that could
> be sustained without resupply for 100 years?  Assuming  the locals made a
> good effort to maintain it.

Hm...good question.  It depends on your supply of spares, there's lots of
electronic components that are basically not maintainable (but have pretty good
normal lifespans), and higher TLs probably have other components with similar
limitations.  Based on the rules for starship maintenance, high-tech equipment
has pretty low maintenance requirements, so I suspect any TL can be maintained
if you're willing to have spares comparable in mass and cost to the total
initial infrastructure.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Jun 11 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New webpage, & my Vincennes Landgrab
Message-ID: <3d063153.27784825@post.demon.co.uk>

After about 10 years of thinking about it, I've finally got around to
setting up a website ;-)

Taking pride of place is the information on my Landgrab of Vincennes.
A lot of this was posted to the TML back in Feb/Mar, but putting it on
the web now means I can add lots of other stuff like planetary maps,
the Vincennes Royal Arms, an illustration of how the Vincennes Grand
Army looks in Fifth Frontier War counter format, and more...

(Of course, it'll probably be another 10 years before I've _finished_
the Landgrab...)

There's also an (updated and illustrated) copy of my Exploratory
Cruiser design for the ISSDEC on there.

Comments welcome.  (Preferably not of the type "Your HTML sucks." I
know it does...)

The address is:

http://www.stempest.demon.co.uk/traveller/

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 11:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue Jun 11 10:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU setting
In-Reply-To: <20020611111903.EB27D27B02@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206111933320.9214-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Peter Trevor writes:

>Okay, this first point is easy enough.  Take Pixie/Regina  as  an
>example.  What do we know of it  from  canon  sources?  A  TL  13
>society with a class A starport, a naval base, and the site of  a
>major industrial facility (run by  General  Shipards).  All  this
>with an apparent population of just  90  people!  The  answer  to
>this riddle is that those 90 people are the *permanent* residents
>of the planet (IIRC they are miners on  Pixie's  surface).

The big problem with that explanation is that it doesn't really explain
anything. Specifically it doesn't explain what all those transients are
doing on Pixie. Also, just what makes the miners residents and the rest
transients? Do the miners constitute a stable society that owns the
system?

I wonder if General Products pays rent to the miners or the shipyard
workers pay taxes?

>There are many more *transiant* people who do  not  appear  in  Pixie's
>stats.

Of course, that interpretation makes the official population figure
absolutely useless for any calculations of trade volume, system defense
budget and the like.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 11:47:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Jun 11 10:47:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92B72C0.5E684%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020611174646.8E09627B20@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/11/02 at 09:26 AM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>The problem is one of scale.  The typical trader is only 200-500
>tons.  In terms of a planet's economy, this is a paltry figure,
>particularly given the cost of the ships themselves (not to mention
>operational costs).

>When calculating the cost of imported goods, one need to add in these
>costs. It will take a huge cost difference in order to make any of
>these low cost goods worthwhile to transport.

>And low tech worlds ability to fabricate goods will limit their value
>on higher tech worlds.  How many automobiles made in the third world
>are sold in the first world?

Well, I *could* make a crack about Korea, Yugoslavia, even Italy, but
I won't. OTOH, I will point to auto fabrication plants in Mexico, as
well as sub-assembly fabers in any number of third world countries.
Tod, there are many US trade unions, and communities, quite worried
about factories, and jobs, being exported to the third world. 

I'll instead generally agree with you that parts and fabricated goods
would be incidental cargos for a PC-class trader, but will insist that
they could be profitable for the big ships that most of us think do
most of the trade. 

However 12 dtons of toaster ovens is better than deadheading 12 dtons
especially when costs are volume rather than mass based. So, even
though the profit might be low, when a broken lot comes available
somewhere or other Captain F. Trader might grab it to fill his hold.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 11:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue Jun 11 10:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Santanocheev
In-Reply-To: <20020611111903.EB27D27B02@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206111944380.9214-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Frank Pitt writes:
>I was under the impression that Norris didn't have a warrant when
>he took power.
>
>It was a fiction that Strephon decided not to call him on, and
>backed him up with by providing him with one after the fact, as
>it had all worked our for the best.

According to _Spinward Marches Campaign_ this is not the case. The warrant
was on Algine and Norris went and fetched it personally.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 11:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Tue Jun 11 10:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] MTBF = Horse Pucky
Message-ID: <F253pwACkWHZqYW8BYX00016e09@hotmail.com>

I am sure someone else will have pointed this out before, but just in 
case...

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> said...
<<SNIP>
>And five years later it hits its mean time between major failures, has a
>catestrophic breakdown, and everyone dies.
<<ENDSNIP>>

As any maintenance or repair engineer can tell you, stated "Mean Time 
Between Failures" is often as useful as a chocolate frying pan.  It is 
almost the same as saying "We had a [insert test object here] on test for 
200 hours and it showed [n] amount of stress.  This means it has a 
(projected) MTBF of 2million hours."

I mean, how many 2000-hour lightbulbs have *you* had?
I spet a very boring summer running tests on an electronics 'black box' with 
an MTBF of 75,000 hours, *according to the supplier*.  Given that that works 
out at over 8 **years**, and the design was only just past its second 
'birthday' and the *actual* MTBF was more like 5 MINUTES...
I don't believe that particular piece of junk ever made it into operational 
service...

And don't get me started on the 'average contents 200' matchboxes... ;-)

ObTrav:  "We don't carry genuine Manufacturer's replacements for that 
(waterpipe) seal, we use a local equivalent.  But it's just as good."
Guess whose character got to dry out *that* stateroom...

Jeff.

"Don't just stand there - operate!"

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 11:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 11 10:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEFEDPAA.tml@jtas.org>
References: <3D0622D9.C6795448@berka.com>
Message-ID: <3D05F2DC.12846.5DC99D@localhost>

I loved it.  I used it for my Play by Email game.  Its just a neat little 
toy.  



On 11 Jun 2002, at 12:42, Colin wrote:

> That's the most useless thing I've seen in a very long time. Thank
> you! ________________________________________
> 
> This is living...
>    This is style...
>       This is elegance,
>          By the mile!
> 
> O the posh posh travelling life the travelling life for me
> First cabin and captain's table regal company
> Whenever I'm bored I travel abroad, but ever so properly
> Port out, starboard home, posh with a capital P-O-S-H, posh
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> >
> > Just for fun, there is now a
> > LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine at my site at URL:
> > http://zho.berka.com/goodies/lbb_render.html
> >
> > Yes, I know it is a quite useless webpage, but
> > at least I thought it was fun...
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 11:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 10:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20020611174646.8E09627B20@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023818269.5627.ajackson@ping>

Eris Reddoch writes:

 I'll instead generally agree with you that parts and fabricated goods
> would be incidental cargos for a PC-class trader, but will insist that
> they could be profitable for the big ships that most of us think do
> most of the trade. 

For reference, GTL10 bulk freighters (J2) run about 0.2 MCr/dton cargo space,
with pretty low operating expenses.  Assuming 30 jumps per year and a desired
income of 7.5% of the ship's cost per year, shipping costs are on the order of
Cr 500 per dton (Cr 100 per register ton) per jump, in TL 10 credits.  There's
plenty of goods which might be worth shipping at those costs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 12:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 11:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] MTBF = Horse Pucky
In-Reply-To: <F253pwACkWHZqYW8BYX00016e09@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023818398.3010.ajackson@ping>

Jeff Rowse writes:
> I am sure someone else will have pointed this out before, but just in 
> case...

Well, the fact that MTBF numbers are BS isn't particularly important to the
discussion, unless one assumes that the real MTBF values should be measured in
centuries.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 12:04:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Tue Jun 11 11:04:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
References: <20611.035250.5C2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c21172$472a1780$1c577b83@Gideon>

<quote>

> > Agreed.  High tech, difficult to manufacture items are really the only
> > things that make sense to trade over interstellar distances.  I don't
see
> > how shipping anything like raw material or foodstuff could ever be
> > economically viable for trade.

</quote>

I strongly disagree with part of this.  The only reason for an empire on a
stellar level (and we are talking about an empire) is to support itself, not
to have each state within said empire support itself.  I agree that given
the prices presented in canon prevents trade of raw material.  Personally I
feel that given those prices interstellar trade is virtually impossible even
with high end manufactured goods.  There are many real world examples of why
it would be more economical for a system to import raw materials.  Just look
at the economy of importing steel from overseas compared to local
manufacture here in the US.  I have and always will use the example of
overseas shipping in the modern world to interstellar shipping in the
Traveller universe (in terms of cost, speed and contents).  If not for this
one point we would cease to be playing a Space Opera and be moving into the
realm of a near future space colonization simulation (not exactly what I
would call a rousing good time).

<quote>

> Spices, furs, woods, gemstones, wines/liquors, etc. Those are what low
> tech worlds (and some high tech ones!) will be exporting.

</quote>

I would consider spices, fur, and wood to be in the realm of "raw
materials".  French fur traders sold their wares to be sent back to Europe
to be used to manufacture clothing, wood may be used for housing and
shipbuilding.  I see these higher priced raw materials as exactly the type
of thing that would be carried by a typical free trader.  Other raw
materials such as steel ingots, salt, grain, etc. would be loaded on 50kton
bulk tenders and shipped at costs of mere credits on the ton.

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 12:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 11 11:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
Message-ID: <87.1cb3a7c4.2a3795a2@aol.com>

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In a message dated 11/06/02 13:25:30 GMT Daylight Time, 
a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:


> > Hm..and gee, the same handwave for Gyomar.  Guess we have to limit
> > ourselves to places like Tondoul (E5136A7-4); 7 million people at TL 4
> > with only a trace atmosphere...
> 
> No problems, you can easily support a vacuum colony with 
> Victorian Tech (TL4), possibly with Renaissance Tech (TL3)
> 
> Air Pumps = TL2
> Hydraulics = TL3
> Airtight seals = TL3
> Cracking Oxygen from Ice = TL4?
> Sealed suits with life support = TL4
> Electrical generators = TL4
> 
> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
>   Scientific terms explained #1
>   "A long established fact"
>   = "I forgot to look up the reference"
> 

Are you sure? Seven million people need a lot of gas to survive, even if they 
all sit around doing nothing - if they were all Mr Textbook around 42,000,000 
L a minute. The air has has to have relatively low levels of CO2 and the best 
power source you've got access to is coal?

How do you produce food? Animals need oxygen and produce CO2 and other waste 
gases. Plants can help you off-set the problem somewhat but a TTL 4 you're 
agricultural infrastructure is reliant on manpower. Lots of farm workers 
harvesting grain in tethered TTL 4 vacc suits? 

Doesn't sound like a no problems to me ;)

Charles

"Rule One: Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly 
smiling men!"

Terry Pratchett, The Thief of Time

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 11/06/02 13:25:30 GMT Daylight Time, a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; Hm..and gee, the same handwave for Gyomar.&nbsp; Guess we have to limit<BR>
&gt; ourselves to places like Tondoul (E5136A7-4); 7 million people at TL 4<BR>
&gt; with only a trace atmosphere...<BR>
<BR>
No problems, you can easily support a vacuum colony with <BR>
Victorian Tech (TL4), possibly with Renaissance Tech (TL3)<BR>
<BR>
Air Pumps = TL2<BR>
Hydraulics = TL3<BR>
Airtight seals = TL3<BR>
Cracking Oxygen from Ice = TL4?<BR>
Sealed suits with life support = TL4<BR>
Electrical generators = TL4<BR>
<BR>
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance<BR>
&nbsp; Scientific terms explained #1<BR>
&nbsp; "A long established fact"<BR>
&nbsp; = "I forgot to look up the reference"<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Are you sure? Seven million people need a lot of gas to survive, even if they all sit around doing nothing - if they were all Mr Textbook around 42,000,000 L a minute. The air has has to have relatively low levels of CO2 and the best power source you've got access to is coal?<BR>
<BR>
How do you produce food? Animals need oxygen and produce CO2 and other waste gases. Plants can help you off-set the problem somewhat but a TTL 4 you're agricultural infrastructure is reliant on manpower. Lots of farm workers harvesting grain in tethered TTL 4 vacc suits? <BR>
<BR>
Doesn't sound like a no problems to me ;)<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
"Rule One: Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly smiling men!"<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett, The Thief of Time</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 12:19:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Jun 11 11:19:11 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
Message-ID: <200206111818.IFW00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

CHam628781@aol.com  says
>Subject: Re: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>Are you sure? Seven million people need a lot of gas to 
>survive, even if they all sit around doing nothing - if they 
>were all Mr Textbook around 42,000,000 L a minute. The air 
>has has to have relatively low levels of CO2 and the best 
>power source you've got access to is coal?
>
There's a neat little handwave on our planet called Plants, 
that use solar power and water to produce oxygen.  We don't 
even tend most of them, and we even kill them or grow some 
without a care to whether or not it will affect anything.

If all of the photosynthetic organisms on Earth died today, 
we wouldn't be far behind, even if we were all Mr. Textbook.  
And the crops that we deliberately plant and grow are a 
miniscule fraction of the total biomass that is 
photosynthetic.

As an indication of how little we know about what to 
intentionally grow to sustain life, take a look at the 
failure of that sealed environment experiment (Bio- what?).

I would presume that if you did know what to grow, in what 
combinations, and how much, you could run a vacuum 
colony "under glass" that didn't require a nuclear 
powerplant.  And sunlight can be focused onto a steam 
generator using mirrors.  On the sunny side of the moon, that 
wouldn't take much of a mirror.

As my mama used to say, "high tech is as high tech does".  We 
seem to have a big catalog thanks to Linnaeus, and a catalog 
of genes, but we don't know very much about how life works 
together, other than to force chickens to adult size in 18 
days.  A lot of the problems of sustainability of even a high 
tech colony seems to lie in the "low tech" world of getting 
some muddy plants and animals to sustain each other.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 12:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 11 11:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The Imperium IMTU (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020611111904.B5CB327B03@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17HqIx-0003uv-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

Ben Bell TML@bzb1.demon.co.uk  wrote: 

> acoloset@kent.edu wrote:
> > 
> > Trade is a generally mandatory device in Imperial economics. 
> > Planets are "dissuaded" from being self-sufficient.  Technology is
> > standardized across the Imperium.  Many items are designed using
> > "Standard Design Templates" and production facilities that are
> > virtually identical across human space
> 
>  But isn't the universal use of Standard Design Templates that make
>  everything virtually identical detrimental to interstellar trade? Why
>  trade for that luxury item when every other planet with fabrication
>  facilities makes exactly the same thing?

Actually, I think it would be *far* more of an advantage.

You can buy spare parts from *anywhere*.  Also, different worlds 
will likely offer slightly different optional features (hand comps from 
Glisten and Rhylanor may be functionally identical, but the one's 
from Glisten also contain built in atmosphere monitors and the 
one's from Rhylanor have casings that can change color...).  

People will mostly buy good from the high tech world nearest to 
them, but that would be true anyway, and using this system, more 
distant high tech worlds would be able to compete because the 
wealthy inhabitants of the low-tech world that are buying high-tech 
gizmos won't be forced to only buy satphones from one world.  W/o 
standardization, one world's satphones might not work with another 
world's satellites, so widespread trade in electronics will actually 
be *far* less. Also, luxury goods like wines and spices won't be 
affected, and luxury trade is also profitable. 

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 13:05:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun 11 12:05:22 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1023818269.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B92B97DA.5E6DE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/11/02 10:57 AM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> 
> For reference, GTL10 bulk freighters (J2) run about 0.2 MCr/dton cargo space,
> with pretty low operating expenses.  Assuming 30 jumps per year and a desired
> income of 7.5% of the ship's cost per year, shipping costs are on the order of
> Cr 500 per dton (Cr 100 per register ton) per jump, in TL 10 credits.  There's
> plenty of goods which might be worth shipping at those costs.

Anyone have an idea about how this compares with bulk shipping by rail or
sea?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 13:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 12:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New webpage, & my Vincennes Landgrab
In-Reply-To: <3d063153.27784825@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023822870.6212.ajackson@ping>

Interesting.  THis made me go back and look at the politics of the Deneb
sector.  Something weird is going on...

Why do so few of the major worlds in the subsector build ships?  There are 10
pop-A worlds in the sector; of those, only Vincennes has a class A starport,
Pikha and Deneb have class B, Dekha and Lilad have class C, Beaxon has class D,
Askigaak, Borlund, Ashasi, and Giikusu all have class E.  With the possible
exception of Borlund at TL 9, none would have trouble building a class A port,
which implies there's some reason they haven't...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 13:17:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun 11 12:17:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1023818269.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B92B9A8A.5E6E4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/11/02 10:57 AM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> For reference, GTL10 bulk freighters (J2) run about 0.2 MCr/dton cargo space,
> with pretty low operating expenses.  Assuming 30 jumps per year and a desired
> income of 7.5% of the ship's cost per year, shipping costs are on the order of
> Cr 500 per dton (Cr 100 per register ton) per jump, in TL 10 credits.  There's
> plenty of goods which might be worth shipping at those costs.

Just did a very limited check on shipping prices.  Current cost per ton to
ship via sea from Calcutta to New York is running $120 per ton.  That's
about Cr40, an order of magnitude cheaper than the cost to ship via
starship.  Shipping the same cargo by commercial air carrier is about $3.30
per kilo.

It would seem therefore, that cargoes will be worthwhile to ship via
starship only past a certain profit point.  Things like bulk grain, ore and
the like will probably not be shipped unless there is a very high price at
the far end.

In the case of simple manufactured goods, it probably makes much more
economic sense to ship machine tool to the world, and manufacture locally.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 13:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun 11 12:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <000f01c21172$472a1780$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <B92B9C88.5E6E9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/11/02 11:03 AM, Anthony Colosetti at acoloset@kent.edu wrote:

> 
> I strongly disagree with part of this.  The only reason for an empire on a
> stellar level (and we are talking about an empire) is to support itself, not
> to have each state within said empire support itself.  I agree that given
> the prices presented in canon prevents trade of raw material.  Personally I
> feel that given those prices interstellar trade is virtually impossible even
> with high end manufactured goods.  There are many real world examples of why
> it would be more economical for a system to import raw materials.  Just look
> at the economy of importing steel from overseas compared to local
> manufacture here in the US.  I have and always will use the example of
> overseas shipping in the modern world to interstellar shipping in the
> Traveller universe (in terms of cost, speed and contents).  If not for this
> one point we would cease to be playing a Space Opera and be moving into the
> realm of a near future space colonization simulation (not exactly what I
> would call a rousing good time).

Bear in mind that shipping via bulk sea carrier is cheap.  Far cheaper than
canon suggest shipping by starship is.

> I would consider spices, fur, and wood to be in the realm of "raw
> materials".  French fur traders sold their wares to be sent back to Europe
> to be used to manufacture clothing, wood may be used for housing and
> shipbuilding.  I see these higher priced raw materials as exactly the type
> of thing that would be carried by a typical free trader.  Other raw
> materials such as steel ingots, salt, grain, etc. would be loaded on 50kton
> bulk tenders and shipped at costs of mere credits on the ton.

Any idea what the cost of shipping by these bulk tenders turns out to be?
If cheap enough, then it does become economically viable.  Doing some
adjustments to current shipping costs (which are, obviously, economically
viable) it looks like your going to need to get costs in the range of 10-20
credits per ton per jump (CT) to approximate the current real world shipping
costs for bulk goods.

Make sure you factor in the cost to boost goods to orbit, and back down
again, as well as the cost to transport from port to port.  Has anyone built
one of these bulk carriers?  What are the total operational costs to move a
ton of cargo 1 jump?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 13:25:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 12:25:29 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92B9A8A.5E6E4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023823491.4086.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:

> 
> Just did a very limited check on shipping prices.  Current cost per ton to
> ship via sea from Calcutta to New York is running $120 per ton.  That's
> about Cr40, an order of magnitude cheaper than the cost to ship via
> starship.

Nah, the cost per register ton was only Cr100, though in practice the rate is
probably higher than Cr500/dton, the Far Trader rates are near that magnitude
in TL 12 credits.  If you use my heretical version of GTLs, $120/ton is about
Cr6/ton.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 13:26:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 11 12:26:01 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
In-Reply-To: <20020611162805.9347A27B03@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17HrG9-0006xC-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

Michael Houghton <herveus@radix.net> wrote:

> Howdy!
> 
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2002 at 11:03:43PM +1200, Frank Pitt wrote:
> > Tying this back to the cell phone discussion, I was once
> > seriously asked by our Chinese government customers whether we
> > could fit an explosive device to the radios we were manufacturing
> > for them that could be exploded on command from the control center.
> 
> Mossad. Not too long ago (several years, I think), the Mossad bagged a
> Palestinian biggie this way. They got him to swap cell phones on the
> pretext that his existing phone was defective. Then they called him up
> and said something like "This is the Mossad. Goodbye", pressed # (or
> whatever), and blew his head apart...

My thought was that I could see a seriously authoritarian world (or 
perhaps even a nation on our world in the next 10-20 years) having 
explosives in *all* phones.  Combine that with computer-aided 
Echelon-like surveillance of all phone calls and the authorities 
listen in on dubious conversations and blow up anyone who sounds 
too dangerous.  Naturally, the phones would also explode if you 
attempted to remove the explosives.  If the proper propaganda was 
used, I can even see people accepting this, since way too many 
humans will accept truly insane measures in the name of safety.  

Of course, PCs visiting such a world might not be told that the 
complimentary phones they are issued are also bombs.  
Alternately, if they have their on comms, they might be approached 
by dissidents looking to purchase safe comms for high prices.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 13:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 11 12:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <20020611182504.DBE8A27B34@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17HrUH-0005uC-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:

> a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:
> 
> > Cracking Oxygen from Ice = TL4?
> Requires electrical power; not sure where that is on the traveller TL
> scale, TL4 may be ok.  Also requires a power source which doesn't use
> oxygen, which means either nuclear or photovoltaic, either of which is
> TL 6.

Except that solar mirrors can be used to power steam engines, 
that sounds like the most likely way they would generate 
electricity.  I can't really see such a world in the Imperium, except 
in a Year 0 campaign - unless the world had *nothing* too sell, 
they would have bought something a bit more advanced after 1,000 
years.  However, this would make a dandy lost colony out beyond 
the reaches of Imperial space (and likely located in a rift). 
 
> Of course, this isn't the method you'd use.  Most habitats probably
> use plants for air, and all you need for that is the ability to build
> large vacuum-resistant windows, which is dependent on the ability to
> build really big sheets of tough glass (plus the ability to build
> ventilation systems, but that's lower tech).  This might actually be
> TL 4.

Plants would be the way to go for air, but electricity would also be 
*really* helpful and you can have both at TL4.

Hmm, I'm now reminded of a fairly wacky James White novel called 
_The Watch Below_.  It was a set of two stories, one about aliens 
fleeing a dying planet and coming to earth, the other about a ship 
that was sunk during (IIRC) WWII, where a few people survived in a 
sealed compartment where they had rechargeable batteries, 
several bicycles, lots of wire, several crates of light bulbs and a 
goodly amount of soil and seeds, and many gallons of fresh water.
  
They built pedal-powered generators to charge the batteries to run 
the lights, used the light to grow plants, recycled water through 
some means I've forgotten and survived fairly well until the supply of 
spare light bulbs began to run out in the (IIRC) 1970s (which was 
naturally around the time that the aliens arrived).

You could set the same thing in a large drifting space liner that 
misjumped into an empty hex and was never found (using either 
bicycles and batteries or the fusion plant on its lowest setting for 
power).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 13:40:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 11 12:40:28 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
Message-ID: <fc.1940f594.2a37abf0@aol.com>

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In a message dated 11/06/02 19:19:50 GMT Daylight Time, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com 
writes:


> CHam628781@aol.com  says
> >Subject: Re: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting  
> >To: tml@travellercentral.com
> >
> >Are you sure? Seven million people need a lot of gas to 
> >survive, even if they all sit around doing nothing - if they 
> >were all Mr Textbook around 42,000,000 L a minute. The air 
> >has has to have relatively low levels of CO2 and the best 
> >power source you've got access to is coal?
> >
> There's a neat little handwave on our planet called Plants, 
> that use solar power and water to produce oxygen.  We don't 
> even tend most of them, and we even kill them or grow some 
> without a care to whether or not it will affect anything.

Plants sound like a neat solution but unfortunately they also present you 
with a number of problems. First plants need CO2 to make oxygen but they'll 
only take up a certain amount, the rest remains in the environment; second 
they need water, and fairly large amounts of it if you want good O2 
production; third they occupy a lot of space relative to the amount of life 
support you get, and any space you use for plant based life support is dead 
space; fourth they're not quick and they're not maintenance free, which is a 
problem if your population is not really stable; fifth, unless your ecosystem 
is really complex a single disease can cause catastrophic imbalance in your 
life support system. 


> 
> If all of the photosynthetic organisms on Earth died today, 
> we wouldn't be far behind, even if we were all Mr. Textbook.  
> And the crops that we deliberately plant and grow are a 
> miniscule fraction of the total biomass that is 
> photosynthetic.

Absolutely true, but it took millions of years for a stable plant based life 
support system to evolve on Terra. It's well balanced because its huge and 
can absorb a lot of punshiment. That's not true of a contained system, which 
is vulnerable to relatively small changes in its environment.

> 
> As an indication of how little we know about what to 
> intentionally grow to sustain life, take a look at the 
> failure of that sealed environment experiment (Bio- what?).

Biosphere 2. Problems with increasing CO2 levels, the deaths of plants and 
pollinators, inabilty to seal it properly and difficulty producing enough 
food. 

> 
> I would presume that if you did know what to grow, in what 
> combinations, and how much, you could run a vacuum 
> colony "under glass" that didn't require a nuclear 
> powerplant.  And sunlight can be focused onto a steam 
> generator using mirrors.  On the sunny side of the moon, that 
> wouldn't take much of a mirror.

That same degree of sunlight will kill your plants. Unless they're 
genetically engineered to survive that intensity of light. But is that level 
of genetic engineering plausible at TTL 4?

> 
> As my mama used to say, "high tech is as high tech does".  We 
> seem to have a big catalog thanks to Linnaeus, and a catalog 
> of genes, but we don't know very much about how life works 
> together, other than to force chickens to adult size in 18 
> days.  A lot of the problems of sustainability of even a high 
> tech colony seems to lie in the "low tech" world of getting 
> some muddy plants and animals to sustain each other.
> 


Charles

"Rule One: Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly 
smiling men!"

Terry Pratchett, The Thief of Time

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 11/06/02 19:19:50 GMT Daylight Time, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">CHam628781@aol.com&nbsp; says<BR>
&gt;Subject: Re: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting&nbsp; <BR>
&gt;To: tml@travellercentral.com<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;Are you sure? Seven million people need a lot of gas to <BR>
&gt;survive, even if they all sit around doing nothing - if they <BR>
&gt;were all Mr Textbook around 42,000,000 L a minute. The air <BR>
&gt;has has to have relatively low levels of CO2 and the best <BR>
&gt;power source you've got access to is coal?<BR>
&gt;<BR>
There's a neat little handwave on our planet called Plants, <BR>
that use solar power and water to produce oxygen.&nbsp; We don't <BR>
even tend most of them, and we even kill them or grow some <BR>
without a care to whether or not it will affect anything.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Plants sound like a neat solution but unfortunately they also present you with a number of problems. First plants need CO2 to make oxygen but they'll only take up a certain amount, the rest remains in the environment; second they need water, and fairly large amounts of it if you want good O2 production; third they occupy a lot of space relative to the amount of life support you get, and any space you use for plant based life support is dead space; fourth they're not quick and they're not maintenance free, which is a problem if your population is not really stable; fifth, unless your ecosystem is really complex a single disease can cause catastrophic imbalance in your life support system. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
If all of the photosynthetic organisms on Earth died today, <BR>
we wouldn't be far behind, even if we were all Mr. Textbook.&nbsp; <BR>
And the crops that we deliberately plant and grow are a <BR>
miniscule fraction of the total biomass that is <BR>
photosynthetic.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Absolutely true, but it took millions of years for a stable plant based life support system to evolve on Terra. It's well balanced because its huge and can absorb a lot of punshiment. That's not true of a contained system, which is vulnerable to relatively small changes in its environment.<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
As an indication of how little we know about what to <BR>
intentionally grow to sustain life, take a look at the <BR>
failure of that sealed environment experiment (Bio- what?).</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Biosphere 2. Problems with increasing CO2 levels, the deaths of plants and pollinators, inabilty to seal it properly and difficulty producing enough food. <BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
I would presume that if you did know what to grow, in what <BR>
combinations, and how much, you could run a vacuum <BR>
colony "under glass" that didn't require a nuclear <BR>
powerplant.&nbsp; And sunlight can be focused onto a steam <BR>
generator using mirrors.&nbsp; On the sunny side of the moon, that <BR>
wouldn't take much of a mirror.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
That same degree of sunlight will kill your plants. Unless they're genetically engineered to survive that intensity of light. But is that level of genetic engineering plausible at TTL 4?<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
As my mama used to say, "high tech is as high tech does".&nbsp; We <BR>
seem to have a big catalog thanks to Linnaeus, and a catalog <BR>
of genes, but we don't know very much about how life works <BR>
together, other than to force chickens to adult size in 18 <BR>
days.&nbsp; A lot of the problems of sustainability of even a high <BR>
tech colony seems to lie in the "low tech" world of getting <BR>
some muddy plants and animals to sustain each other.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
"Rule One: Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly smiling men!"<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett, The Thief of Time</FONT></HTML>

--part1_fc.1940f594.2a37abf0_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 13:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun 11 12:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The Imperium IMTU (long)
In-Reply-To: <E17HqIx-0003uv-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B92BA05B.5E6F1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/11/02 11:20 AM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> 
> People will mostly buy good from the high tech world nearest to
> them, but that would be true anyway, and using this system, more
> distant high tech worlds would be able to compete because the
> wealthy inhabitants of the low-tech world that are buying high-tech
> gizmos won't be forced to only buy satphones from one world.  W/o
> standardization, one world's satphones might not work with another
> world's satellites, so widespread trade in electronics will actually
> be *far* less. Also, luxury goods like wines and spices won't be
> affected, and luxury trade is also profitable.

But this assumes that some product designed on one planet will work
everywhere.  That's quite an assumption.  A BMW M5 may be great on the
autobahn, but not much use in Quito, Equidor where you're lucky to find a
decent road 5 miles outside the city proper.  We are talking about worlds
here, not countries.

And in a sense, standards often serve to stifle innovation.  The cell phone
discussion earlier is a good example.  Europe adopted the GSM standard early
on, and this had some benefit.  However, as more cellular communication
devices are added to the system, that system is showing it's weakness.  The
technology is rapidly approaching its limits.

Does anyone really believe that advanced computer operating systems would
have been created without the pressure of competing designs.  Would
Microsoft have bothered with a GUI if Apple hadn't raised the bar?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 13:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun 11 12:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1023823491.4086.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B92BA0E0.5E6F5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/11/02 12:24 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> Nah, the cost per register ton was only Cr100, though in practice the rate is
> probably higher than Cr500/dton, the Far Trader rates are near that magnitude
> in TL 12 credits.  If you use my heretical version of GTLs, $120/ton is about
> Cr6/ton.

Ah.  I was working from CT numbers.  Cr6 per ton makes starship freight very
cheap.  Cheaper even than bulk sea freightage.  Does this figure include the
cost to boost from dirtside and back down again?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 13:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun 11 12:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
In-Reply-To: <E17HrG9-0006xC-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B92BA17D.5E6F6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/11/02 12:21 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> My thought was that I could see a seriously authoritarian world (or
> perhaps even a nation on our world in the next 10-20 years) having
> explosives in *all* phones.  Combine that with computer-aided
> Echelon-like surveillance of all phone calls and the authorities
> listen in on dubious conversations and blow up anyone who sounds
> too dangerous.  Naturally, the phones would also explode if you
> attempted to remove the explosives.  If the proper propaganda was
> used, I can even see people accepting this, since way too many
> humans will accept truly insane measures in the name of safety.

LOL.  Of course, in the US you have to get this past the product safety
Nazis and the trial lawyers.
> 
> Of course, PCs visiting such a world might not be told that the
> complimentary phones they are issued are also bombs.
> Alternately, if they have their on comms, they might be approached
> by dissidents looking to purchase safe comms for high prices.

Naturally, it won't take long for someone to publish material on how to
safely remove the explosive and use it for other tasks.  Paladin Press,
anyone?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 13:53:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Jun 11 12:53:36 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
Message-ID: <200206111951.IFZ06702@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Subject: Re: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech  
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>
>Ah.  I was working from CT numbers.  Cr6 per ton makes 
>starship freight very cheap.  Cheaper even than bulk sea 
>freightage.  Does this figure include the
>cost to boost from dirtside and back down again?
>

Quick question: the register ton on earth corresponds to a 
displacement ton of water, while the Traveller dTon is a 
displacement ton of liquid hydrogen.  I've always wondered 
about this, because a waterborne ship displaces a set amount 
per unit of cargo.  If her capacity is 10,000 tons, then we 
can fit 10,000 tons of lead bricks in a fairly small area and 
set to sea with ship riding low in the water (there's more 
room left in the ship, but we can't load anymore for safety 
reasons).  I've wondered how this works in Traveller, since 
it seems to mention displacement, and not mass.  I could fit 
quite a few lead bricks in 14 cubic meters of cargo space.  
Am I limited to 1 ton of mass for every 14 cubic meters of 
cargo space in a Traveller ship?
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 13:55:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 11 12:55:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU setting
In-Reply-To: <20020611182504.DBE8A27B34@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17Hrif-0005N2-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:

> Peter Trevor writes:
> 
> >Okay, this first point is easy enough.  Take Pixie/Regina  as  an
> >example.  What do we know of it  from  canon  sources?  A  TL  13
> >society with a class A starport, a naval base, and the site of  a
> >major industrial facility (run by  General  Shipards).  All  this
> >with an apparent population of just  90  people!  The  answer  to
> >this riddle is that those 90 people are the *permanent* residents of
> >the planet (IIRC they are miners on  Pixie's  surface).
> 
> The big problem with that explanation is that it doesn't really
> explain anything. Specifically it doesn't explain what all those
> transients are doing on Pixie. Also, just what makes the miners
> residents and the rest transients? Do the miners constitute a stable
> society that owns the system

The only answer that I can see making sense is that this world is 
much like a modern day oil drilling platform or an antarctic research 
station.  Both such locations are isolated TL 8 sites that could in 
no way sustain their tech level w/o outside aid.  There don't need to 
be transients coming to Pixie except in the sense that the 90 
inhabitants rarely stay there longer than a decade, and more often 
only a couple of years.  If the weekly resupply ship stopped coming 
for more than a month or two, the people on Pixies would be in 
trouble, and likely if they were cut off for a year or so there would 
be a serious TL collapse and everyone would die.  

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 13:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Jun 11 12:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
In-Reply-To: <E17HrG9-0006xC-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <E17HrG9-0006xC-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <m3it4p7fkc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
>
> If the proper propaganda was used, I can even see people accepting
> this, since way too many humans will accept truly insane measures in
> the name of safety.

Cue the news item on my pager earlier today: four of five Americans
are willing to trade freedom for security.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Crist is arisen!  Arisen he sothe!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 14:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Jun 11 13:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92B97DA.5E6DE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020611200521.E919927B51@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/11/02 at 12:04 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 6/11/02 10:57 AM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

>> 
>> For reference, GTL10 bulk freighters (J2) run about 0.2 MCr/dton cargo space,
>> with pretty low operating expenses.  Assuming 30 jumps per year and a desired
>> income of 7.5% of the ship's cost per year, shipping costs are on the order of
>> Cr 500 per dton (Cr 100 per register ton) per jump, in TL 10 credits.  There's
>> plenty of goods which might be worth shipping at those costs.

>Anyone have an idea about how this compares with bulk shipping by
>rail or sea?

I've looked for this sort of data before and never had much luck. I
did find the following "In 1998, the transit trasn-siberian railroad
tariff was $1,460 for one 20-feet container, sea tariff via Suez Canal
was $1,650 for one 20 feet container."  

I also found some barge freight rates, that appear to be something in
the neighborhood of $10 per short ton of bulk freight (soybeans/corn)
shipped from Iowa to New Orleans.

Does that help?

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 14:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun 11 13:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
In-Reply-To: <m3it4p7fkc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B92BA6D1.5E716%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/11/02 12:58 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
>> 
>> If the proper propaganda was used, I can even see people accepting
>> this, since way too many humans will accept truly insane measures in
>> the name of safety.
> 
> Cue the news item on my pager earlier today: four of five Americans
> are willing to trade freedom for security.

And to paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, if they do so, they will soon find that
they have little of both.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 14:12:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun 11 13:12:01 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <200206111951.IFZ06702@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B92BA730.5E717%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/11/02 12:51 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> Quick question: the register ton on earth corresponds to a
> displacement ton of water, while the Traveller dTon is a
> displacement ton of liquid hydrogen.  I've always wondered
> about this, because a waterborne ship displaces a set amount
> per unit of cargo.  If her capacity is 10,000 tons, then we
> can fit 10,000 tons of lead bricks in a fairly small area and
> set to sea with ship riding low in the water (there's more
> room left in the ship, but we can't load anymore for safety
> reasons).  I've wondered how this works in Traveller, since
> it seems to mention displacement, and not mass.  I could fit
> quite a few lead bricks in 14 cubic meters of cargo space.
> Am I limited to 1 ton of mass for every 14 cubic meters of
> cargo space in a Traveller ship?

Well, at least from the perspective of the maneuver drive, mass is mass.  So
the real question is: does the jump field move a certain mass, or a certain
volume?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 14:13:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Jun 11 13:13:17 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92B9A8A.5E6E4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020611201139.66AB927B51@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/11/02 at 12:16 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>Just did a very limited check on shipping prices. 

Where did you find those prices?  I've tried all sorts of searches
without much luck.

>Current cost per
>ton to ship via sea from Calcutta to New York is running $120 per
>ton.  That's about Cr40, an order of magnitude cheaper than the cost
>to ship via starship.  Shipping the same cargo by commercial air
>carrier is about $3.30 per kilo.

Tod, I this is a different discussion, but I just don't buy into the
$3 = 1 Cr figure. That's neither here, nor there in this discussion,
though. <g>

>It would seem therefore, that cargoes will be worthwhile to ship via
>starship only past a certain profit point.  Things like bulk grain,
>ore and the like will probably not be shipped unless there is a very
>high price at the far end.

>In the case of simple manufactured goods, it probably makes much more
>economic sense to ship machine tool to the world, and manufacture
>locally. 

True, if 3 to 1 holds IYTU, but not if it is closer to 1 to 1.  Maybe
the conversion rate is germaine after all.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 14:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 13:14:04 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine
References: <3D0622D9.C6795448@berka.com>
Message-ID: <3D0659D1.4020205@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

P-O Bergstedt wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> Just for fun, there is now a 
> LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine at my site at URL:
> http://zho.berka.com/goodies/lbb_render.html
> 
> Yes, I know it is a quite useless webpage, but
> at least I thought it was fun...

LOL!!!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 14:14:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Tue Jun 11 13:14:44 2002
Subject: cell phones (was Re: [TML] VRF Shotgun?)
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAECICEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEOBCIAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

How about rigging a urinal with a few thousand volts!


-SRS-

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Glenn M. Goffin
> Sent: Tuesday, 11 June, 2002 01:17
> To: Traveller-Digest
> Subject: cell phones (was Re: [TML] VRF Shotgun?)
> 
> 
> >From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
> >
> >The cell phone assassinations were numerous through the 90s,
> >with Israel killing a bombmaker known as the Engineer, and
> >many others across not only the West Bank, but Lebanon as
> >well.  I think that using a cell phone in certain career
> >paths is right up there with starting your car (or, as in a
> >recent movie, using your cigarette lighter).
> 
> Thanks everyone for these great ideas.  I'm running a campaign 
> involving the
> Roupian mafia on Regina, and they will of course try to whack 
> their enemies
> in creative ways -- and be whacked in return.
> 
> --Glenn
> 
> "Ah, my commdot's vibrating.  Do I answer it or not?"
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 14:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Tue Jun 11 13:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
In-Reply-To: <E17HrG9-0006xC-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCEOBCIAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> > 
> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2002 at 11:03:43PM +1200, Frank Pitt wrote:
> > > Tying this back to the cell phone discussion, I was once
> > > seriously asked by our Chinese government customers whether we
> > > could fit an explosive device to the radios we were manufacturing
> > > for them that could be exploded on command from the control center.
> > 
> > Mossad. Not too long ago (several years, I think), the Mossad bagged a
> > Palestinian biggie this way. They got him to swap cell phones on the
> > pretext that his existing phone was defective. Then they called him up
> > and said something like "This is the Mossad. Goodbye", pressed # (or
> > whatever), and blew his head apart...
> 
> My thought was that I could see a seriously authoritarian world (or 
> perhaps even a nation on our world in the next 10-20 years) having 
> explosives in *all* phones.  Combine that with computer-aided 
> Echelon-like surveillance of all phone calls and the authorities 
> listen in on dubious conversations and blow up anyone who sounds 
> too dangerous.  Naturally, the phones would also explode if you 
> attempted to remove the explosives.  If the proper propaganda was 
> used, I can even see people accepting this, since way too many 
> humans will accept truly insane measures in the name of safety.  
> 
> Of course, PCs visiting such a world might not be told that the 
> complimentary phones they are issued are also bombs.  
> Alternately, if they have their on comms, they might be approached 
> by dissidents looking to purchase safe comms for high prices.
> 
> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  
> 

So much for "Freedom of Speech"!

I just would not want to be nearby during an electrical storm
or solar flare activity!

-SRS-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 14:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun 11 13:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20020611201139.66AB927B51@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B92BAA0F.5E740%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/11/02 1:11 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

> On 06/11/02 at 12:16 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> said:
> 
>> Just did a very limited check on shipping prices.
> 
> Where did you find those prices?  I've tried all sorts of searches
> without much luck.

Tell me about it.  After a google search for marine bulk shipping prices, I
waded through a few dozen website.

> Tod, I this is a different discussion, but I just don't buy into the
> $3 = 1 Cr figure. That's neither here, nor there in this discussion,
> though. <g>

That figure is based on the CT credit.  The CT credit has been stated in
various sources to be equivalent to the 1977 US dollar.  I don't know if
that's canon, but it's come up on this list in the past.  Adjusted for
inflation, the CT credit is worth 2.92 2001 US dollars (the last full year
for which figures are available).

> 
> True, if 3 to 1 holds IYTU, but not if it is closer to 1 to 1.  Maybe
> the conversion rate is germaine after all.

Well, certainly the conversion rate seems germane if you try to translate CT
costs into present day ones.  Of course quite a few numbers in the LBBs are
way off, but of well.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 14:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun 11 13:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCEOBCIAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <B92BAA48.5E741%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/11/02 1:15 PM, Shawn R Sears at ShawnSears@telocity.com wrote:

>> Of course, PCs visiting such a world might not be told that the
>> complimentary phones they are issued are also bombs.
>> Alternately, if they have their on comms, they might be approached
>> by dissidents looking to purchase safe comms for high prices.
>> 
>> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
>> 
> 
> So much for "Freedom of Speech"!

Or slamming the phone on someone.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 14:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Tue Jun 11 13:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHEEOCCIAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> Tying this back to the cell phone discussion, I was once
> seriously asked by our Chinese government customers whether we
> could fit an explosive device to the radios we were manufacturing
> for them that could be exploded on command from the control
> center.
> 
> The rationale was that a policeman's radio could fall into "the
> wrong hands", so if a policeman reported the radio stolen they
> could explode it and  hopefully take out a few dissidents as well
> as solve a potential security problem.
> 
> It was a technically simple concept, but the issues were more
> political, as if we sold radios that could be exploded remotely
> they could be classed as "arms" and change all the rules on who
> we could sell them to...
> 
> ObTrav is obvious. Let the PC's capture an enemy's comm unit....
> 
> Frankie
> 
> 
This would work really well in America.
Just think:

Civil servants entering the codes and cell phone data.
A Microsoft data base to store the data.
An intelligence agency that bombed the Chinese embassy by ACCIDENT
determining which coded should be triggered and when.

Should a cruiser appear over Las Vegas, I'm grabbing my towel and
HITCHIN' A RIDE!

-Shawn-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 14:28:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 13:28:10 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <200206111951.IFZ06702@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023827246.2767.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> Quick question: the register ton on earth corresponds to a 
> displacement ton of water

No it doesn't.  The register ton is 100 cubic feet of cargo space.  It bears no
resemblance to the displacement ton, which is about 35 cubic feet of underwater
displacement.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 14:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 13:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92BA0E0.5E6F5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023827353.9084.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> on 6/11/02 12:24 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> > Nah, the cost per register ton was only Cr100, though in practice the
> > rate is probably higher than Cr500/dton, the Far Trader rates are near
> > that magnitude in TL 12 credits.  If you use my heretical version of GTLs,
> > $120/ton is about Cr6/ton.
> 
> Ah.  I was working from CT numbers.  Cr6 per ton makes starship freight
> very cheap.  Cheaper even than bulk sea freightage.  Does this figure
> include the cost to boost from dirtside and back down again?

Sorry, Cr6/ton is the cost for bulk sea freight using my heretical conversion.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 14:37:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue Jun 11 13:37:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU setting
In-Reply-To: <20020611201726.789D627B69@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206112226470.9214-100000@ask.diku.dk>

John Snead writes:
>Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:
>>The big problem with that explanation is that it doesn't really
>>explain anything. Specifically it doesn't explain what all those
>>transients are doing on Pixie. Also, just what makes the miners
>>residents and the rest transients? Do the miners constitute a stable
>>society that owns the system
>
>The only answer that I can see making sense is that this world is
>much like a modern day oil drilling platform or an antarctic research
>station.

That's exactly what I was getting at. Even that explanation doesn't make
sense. How many oil drilling platforms or antarctic research stations do
you know of where you can get a yacht built?

>There don't need to be transients coming to Pixie except in the sense
>that the 90 inhabitants rarely stay there longer than a decade, and more
>often only a couple of years.

That's the kind of people *I* would count as transients. Just what is it
about the 90 miners that made the Scouts count them as residents? Why not
either list the resident population as zero or estimate the average
transient population of 4,000 (or whatever)?



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 14:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Jun 11 13:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA229B7@USCHM203>

>Anyone have an idea about how this compares with bulk shipping by
>rail or sea?

My wife works for a large shipping company, and says that to ship a car,
which requires a 20 ft container, costs about $2500.
At a quick estimate, a 20 ft container looks like it would take up on a
deckplan a little more than 5 displacement tons (I'm all CT here, so I'm
sure others can come up with more exact figures).
For the record, you have to ship in standard containers, so if you're trying
to ship a single snub pistol, you'd have to take it to a consolidator to be
put in a container with other freight. Big shipping companies are not Fed Ex
or UPS.
Traveller's cargo rates certainly compare favorably with these numbers. If
anything, they're a little cheaper for bulk hauling, and it would seem to me
that interstellar trade would not only be practical and profitable, but
taking place on a massive scale.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 14:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Jun 11 13:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:Addendum- hi tech versus low tech
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA229B8@USCHM203>

Traveller's cargo rates certainly compare favorably with these numbers. If
anything, they're a little cheaper for bulk hauling, and it would seem tome
that interstellar trade would not only be practical and profitable, but
taking place on a massive scale.

I should have added that rates vary depending on the nature of the cargo,
but obviously will be within a reasonable range. Grain and ore would be
cheaper to ship than vehicles and computers due to packaging requirements
and liability.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 14:50:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Jun 11 13:50:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <003101c21163$3682c710$1c577b83@Gideon>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz> <003101c21163$3682c710$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <3d073e60.31126392@post.demon.co.uk>

"Anthony Colosetti" <acoloset@kent.edu> writes:

> Metric systems use their length terms for measures of area and
>cubic area (ex. 2 square meters or 5 cubic meters) where the Imperial
>measurement system has specific names for area and cubic area=20

One hectare is 10,000 square metres (or 100 metres square if you
prefer).  The term is used regularly in contexts where pre-metric
people would use "acre".

A hectare is 100 ares, but I've never heard anyone measure anything in
ares. ;-)

In a way, "A4" is also a named measurement of area (297mm by 210mm)...
This one is used in normal conversation (as in "It's about the size of
two sheets of A4").

Stephen

http://www.stempest.demon.co.uk/traveller/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 15:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Jun 11 14:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Imperium IMTU (long)
In-Reply-To: <B92BA05B.5E6F1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001001c2118a$ecedc640$0b01a8c0@duck>

> And in a sense, standards often serve to stifle innovation.

While I doubt the original author intended for this effect, this is
still a good thing (background-wise) as the Imperium is a fairly 
stagnant empire.

This actually helps explain things in the OTU.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 15:19:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 14:19:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <3D052861.5040601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20611.141550.3P9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> 
>>>Kelly St.Clair wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>The only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do
>>>>>naught.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Um... the metric system (and/or advocation of same) is evil now?
>>>
>>>Of COURSE it is, all those damn furriners use it...prolly a Commie Plot 
>>>to poison our Precious Bodily Fluids.
>> 
>> 
>> Ahem.
>> 
>> The metric system has been legal in the US for over 200 years. 
>> 
>
> I know I know, and had Jefferson had his way, we wouldn't be having this 
> discussion anyway...at least he prevailed with our monetary system...
>
> Guess I needed to put in the <sarcasm></s> tags...

Nah. I knew you were kidding.

But it gave me the opportunity to remind folks of that minor little fact.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 15:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Jun 11 14:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA229B7@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020611212616.597C227B4E@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/11/02 at 04:44 PM,  "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> said:


>>Anyone have an idea about how this compares with bulk shipping by
>>rail or sea?

>My wife works for a large shipping company, and says that to ship a
>car, which requires a 20 ft container, costs about $2500.
>At a quick estimate, a 20 ft container looks like it would take up on
>a deckplan a little more than 5 displacement tons (I'm all CT here,
>so I'm sure others can come up with more exact figures).

Do you know the dimensions of a "standard 20 ft container?" That would
let us figure its volume and translate it into Traveller dTons.  
We've got 14 cubic meters, 13.5 cubic meters and 500 cubic feet
equaling a dTon in different versions of Traveller, but are all of
those measurements are close enough to each other not to worry about.

>For the record, you have to ship in standard containers, so if you're
>trying to ship a single snub pistol, you'd have to take it to a
>consolidator to be put in a container with other freight. Big
>shipping companies are not Fed Ex or UPS.

>Traveller's cargo rates certainly compare favorably with these
>numbers. If anything, they're a little cheaper for bulk hauling, and
>it would seem to me that interstellar trade would not only be
>practical and profitable, but taking place on a massive scale.

You're saying, then, about $500 per dton of displacement?

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 15:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Tue Jun 11 14:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab Whanga-VERY rough draft
Message-ID: <sd063342.029@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

This is an initial draft and some rough notes on my development of the
Whanga system. I am especially interested in the opinions/comments of
those of you who are more scientifically minded, as I am on shaky ground
in that arena. As soon as this becomes a bit more refined, I will be
posting it to my website.

Thanks in advance!

Jeff


Whanga  

Regina/Spinward Marches 0206-E676126-7 224 Lo NI G Imp 

Starport: Frontier Installation
Size: 9826 km/dia
Atmosphere: Nitrogen/Oxygen mix, tainted by volcanic action
Hydrographic: 64% Surface water, small polar ice caps, climatically
very active
Population: 28, in four familial groups
Government: Participatory democracy, "Congress"
Law Level: 6
Tech Level: Pre-Stellar (7) 
Astrographic Data: 2 Asteroid Belts, 4 Gas Giants
Allegiance: Imperial (Fiefdom in perpetuity of the Duke of Regina) 

Starport: There is a single landing pad, capable of accommodating ships
up to 800 tons displacement. It is located just outside of Congress
Village, the only permanent settlement on the planet. There is an
automated flight control beacon located inside a small shed on the site,
and there have recently been a series of low rock-built blast walls
erected around the perimeter of the site. There are plans to build a
repair shed and a fueling depot, but funds and materials have not yet
been allocated. There are no repair facilities at this time. 

Population Notes: The population is comprised of four families.  Each
family has been accorded settlement rights by the Duke of Regina and
holds a land grant to develop the planet for future colonization. The
land is held by the families in quasi-fief pending the ratification of
the Colonial Charter by the Duke.  

Government: The Duke of Regina is considered the titular Head of State.
All citizens, having reached the age of majority at 16, are required to
be present for the "Congresses" which are held one week a season. Each
family, with the family head as Speaker, has responsibility for one of
the four congresses during the year. Votes are cast, Criminal and Civil
Courts are held, if needed, and taxes (paid in barter or local currency:
Shels[1]) are collected and tabulated during Congress. Congresses are
also major social and trade gatherings, and are often quite celebratory.
The week often sees the grounding of several Free Traders loaded with
various trade goods.   

Atmosphere, Weather and Climate: The climate of Whanga is unstable at
best. Severe weather extremes are the rule, rather than the exception.
Due to intense geological activity, various volcanic gases taint the
Nitrogen/Oxygen atmosphere, most notably sulfur dioxide (SO2) and carbon
dioxide (C02 ). There are also smaller amounts of others gases,
including hydrogen sulfide (H2S), hydrogen (H2), carbon monoxide (CO),
hydrogen chloride (HCL), hydrogen fluoride (HF), and helium (He). There
is a notably high concentration of very fine tephra suspended in the
air, causing occasional difficulty with filtration systems and providing
a condensation medium for precipitation. Filter masks are required when
outdoors for any length of time. Environmental suits are strongly
recommended for rain and fog conditions due to the often high
concentrations of sulfuric and hydrochloric acids present in
precipitation. Precipitation pH levels have been measured as low as 4.6,
with the average being 5.7 or better. Thunderstorms, Lightning strikes,
tornados, hailstorms and hurricanes are all common, especially during
periods of heavy volcanic activity. Mean planetary temperature is 40
Deg. C, and is affected by the cooling effect of particulate matter in
the air, versus the relative effects of the abundance of greenhouse
gasses in the atmosphere. 

Culture: The population of Whanga is exceedingly small because it is
not a particularly nice place to live yet. The current population is
semi-nomadic, living in large ATV-like "Caravans" and traveling from one
development site to another. They all schedule their trips closely to
coincide with the "Congress" held each season. There is usually a family
member at Congress Village year-round to represent the family interests
should there be a problem with the Caravan returning. By consensus there
are a few restrictions on weapons, drugs and such, but they are not
closely enforced and there has been very little problem; everyone knows
everyone else, and cultural pressure is usually enough to stop any
problems before they start. Whangans are a hardy people who love a good
story, and are very welcoming to outsiders. However, they do guard their
colonial rights carefully, and immigration is not permitted, except by
marriage into or adoption by one of the families.

[1] The local currency, the "Shel" (pl: Shels) is roughly equivalent to
.68 Imperial Credits. Families generally bank their Imperial Credits for
family purchases, and use shels amongst themselves.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 15:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 11 14:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <20020611151354.H23503@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <20020612073748.A26076@freeman.little-possums.net>

Frank Pitt wrote:
> To be pedantic, you don't _have_ to modulate to communicate, and
> you _can_ communicate with a single frequency (presuming you can
> generate one).
> 
> When it's on it represents a single binary '1' and when it is off
> a '0'.

That's a subset of amplitude modulation, and does generate sidebands.
In fact, depending upon how sharply you switch on and off, they can be
very wide ones.


> (ignoring for the moment annoying little things like switching
> harmonics)

You can't ignore switching harmonics.  If you filtered them out
completely, you'd find you no longer had a modulated signal and no
information would be transmitted.


> Shannon's theorem, though, _is_ bypassd by modern digital
> communications, as the theorem you're talking about here only
> covers raw, uncompressed, data.

It covers maximum information transmission (more specifically,
entropy).


> A 56K modem pumps around 56K of information down an audio line that
> has a theoretical Shannon limit of 2.4K data bits

No, the theoretical Shannon limit for a high-grade voice line is about
100 kilobits according to the specs on Telstra exchange equipment.
Lower-quality voice lines may go as low as 20 kilobits before Telstra
is obligated to rectify the fault.  On such lines you can expect your
modem to handshake somewhere around 9600 or worse, depending upon the
quality of your modem and what type of noise you're getting.

You are probably thinking of bandwidth, which is related but not the
same thing.  Yes, a voice-grade line has a minimum nominal bandwidth
of about 2.4 kHz, but that's only one variable in the equation.

2.4 kHz != 2.4 kb/s.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 15:38:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Jun 11 14:38:39 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
Message-ID: <F144Ix1l26LUhJ5M7GP00001152@hotmail.com>

From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

     "Well, at least from the perspective of the maneuver drive, mass is 
mass.  So the real question is: does the jump field move a certain mass, or 
a certain volume?"


Mr. Glenn,

     IMTU, at least, the jump field doesn't move anything.  It simply 
protects a pre-set volume of normal space from the physics of jump space, 
thus allowing objects to survive through the duration of a jump.
     The jump drive itself moves, or displaces, a pre-set displacement 
volume.  It requires 20 dTons of fuel to displace a Beowulf one parsec, and 
that amount doesn't vary whether the cargo hold is empty or full.
     While the jump drive and jump field are useless without each other, 
they are not the same thing.
     Strange?  Incomprehensible?  Yes to both, but even the folks in the 
57th century don't fully gronk jump space.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 15:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Jun 11 14:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <3d073e60.31126392@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020611214037.6E30027B77@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/11/02 at 06:40 PM,  stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen
Tempest) said:

>"Anthony Colosetti" <acoloset@kent.edu> writes:

>> Metric systems use their length terms for measures of area and
>>cubic area (ex. 2 square meters or 5 cubic meters) where the Imperial
>>measurement system has specific names for area and cubic area 

>One hectare is 10,000 square metres (or 100 metres square if you
>prefer).  The term is used regularly in contexts where pre-metric
>people would use "acre".

A stere is one cubic meter. I believe it was originally used to
measure quantities of wood, and I don't think it is widely used by
anti-American (if you can call us pre-metric, I can call you
anti-American <g>) people, but it *is* a perfectly good term of
measurement.

And the US doesn't use Imperial measurement, we use the American
System of Weights and Measures.  Yeah, yeah, I know. <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 15:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Jun 11 14:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
Message-ID: <F1689wPiyAphwFutJLt0001b892@hotmail.com>

From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com>

     "Where all this falls down is in system  generation.  The  way  in
which the core trade codes (Ag, In, Na, Ni) are applied  is  IMHO flawed.  
(Consider: how can a world be Ni  *and*  interdicted  at the same time for 
any lengthy period?)  These codes should  be  a byproduct of a Pocket 
Empires-like analysis of  a  local  economy and not just simply based on the 
UWP."


Mr. Trevor,

     Which brings us back to my original supposition; that the OTU is in all 
actuality a specialized subset of the core Traveller rules.
     The OTU bears a similar relationship with CT as GURPS:WW2 does with 
Basic GURPS.  Just as G:WW2 ignores Basic GURPS rules like psionics and 
magic and just as G:WW2 requires addendums like specialized charecter 
templates, the OTU needs to ignore some CT rules and requires other, 
additional special rules.
     The fact that the two, the OTU and CT, "grew up" together blinds us to 
this.  The OTU is a specialized SUBSET of CT.  The OTU requires specific 
changes to CT canon in order to work or even be explained.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 15:55:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Jun 11 14:55:04 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine
Message-ID: <F235wd0JSc3XpWJtNm6000191f1@hotmail.com>

From: P-O Bergstedt <zho@berka.com>

     "Yes, I know it is a quite useless webpage, but at least I thought it 
was fun..."


Mr. Bergstedt,

     Useless in a pig's eye!  I'm having fun with it already!
     Thanks!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 15:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 11 14:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
In-Reply-To: <20020611201728.39C7527B6A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17Htdb-0004af-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> on 6/11/02 12:21 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com
> wrote:
> 
> > My thought was that I could see a seriously authoritarian world (or
> > perhaps even a nation on our world in the next 10-20 years) having
> > explosives in *all* phones.  Combine that with computer-aided
> > Echelon-like surveillance of all phone calls and the authorities
> > listen in on dubious conversations and blow up anyone who sounds too
> > dangerous.  Naturally, the phones would also explode if you
> > attempted to remove the explosives.  If the proper propaganda was
> > used, I can even see people accepting this, since way too many
> > humans will accept truly insane measures in the name of safety.
> 
> LOL.  Of course, in the US you have to get this past the product
> safety Nazis and the trial lawyers.

To which I say hurrah for the product safety folk and the trial 
lawyers!  I have no interest in having bombs in phones, no matter 
how much "safer" they might make us all.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 15:58:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 11 14:58:33 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
In-Reply-To: <20020611201728.39C7527B6A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17Htdc-0004af-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

> sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
> >
> > If the proper propaganda was used, I can even see people accepting
> > this, since way too many humans will accept truly insane measures in
> > the name of safety.
> 
> Cue the news item on my pager earlier today: four of five Americans
> are willing to trade freedom for security.

Ben Franklin's quote about those who are willing to trade freedom 
for security deserve neither vividly comes to mind.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 15:59:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 11 14:59:05 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
In-Reply-To: <20020611201728.39C7527B6A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17Htde-0004af-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> on 6/11/02 12:58 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:
> 
> > sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
> >> 
> >> If the proper propaganda was used, I can even see people accepting
> >> this, since way too many humans will accept truly insane measures
> >> in the name of safety.
> > 
> > Cue the news item on my pager earlier today: four of five Americans
> > are willing to trade freedom for security.
> 
> And to paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, if they do so, they will soon
> find that they have little of both.

Yep, my thoughts exactly.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 15:59:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 11 14:59:37 2002
Subject: [TML] The Imperium IMTU (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020611201728.39C7527B6A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17Htdh-0004af-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> on 6/11/02 11:20 AM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com
> wrote: > > > People will mostly buy good from the high tech world
> nearest to > them, but that would be true anyway, and using this
> system, more > distant high tech worlds would be able to compete
> because the > wealthy inhabitants of the low-tech world that are
> buying high-tech > gizmos won't be forced to only buy satphones from
> one world.  W/o > standardization, one world's satphones might not
> work with another > world's satellites, so widespread trade in
> electronics will actually > be *far* less. Also, luxury goods like
> wines and spices won't be > affected, and luxury trade is also
> profitable.
> 
<snip>

> And in a sense, standards often serve to stifle innovation.  The cell
> phone discussion earlier is a good example.  Europe adopted the GSM
> standard early on, and this had some benefit.  However, as more
> cellular communication devices are added to the system, that system is
> showing it's weakness.  The technology is rapidly approaching its
> limits.

True, which makes and excellent case that the Imperium does use 
highly standardized tech.  Given the glacial pace of technological 
advancement in the Imperium, things that slow down technological 
advancement are *very* helpful ways to explain why tech advances 
so slowly.  Also, I'm certain the Vilani would have used highly 
standardized technology and having that hang on makes sense.

Standardized tech makes a *great* deal of sense in the Imperium.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com    


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] VRF Shotgun?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <B92A2213.5E1FE%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <20020612075937.B26076@freeman.little-possums.net>

Frank Pitt wrote:
> The rationale was that a policeman's radio could fall into "the
> wrong hands", so if a policeman reported the radio stolen they
> could explode it and  hopefully take out a few dissidents as well
> as solve a potential security problem.

I hope they considered the possibility of dissidents finding out the
codes...


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:01:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:01:46 2002
Subject: [TML] New webpage, & my Vincennes Landgrab
Message-ID: <F79FJ7tdNWli4pDSDVa00009512@hotmail.com>

From: tml@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)

     "Taking pride of place is the information on my Landgrab of Vincennes.  
A lot of this was posted to the TML back in Feb/Mar, but putting it on the 
web now means I can add lots of other stuff like planetary maps, the 
Vincennes Royal Arms, an illustration of how the Vincennes Grand Army looks 
in Fifth Frontier War counter format, and more..."


Mr. Tempest,

     The only sound you can hear in the TML Black Hole of Quality is the 
distant whir of thousands of hard drives storing your Land Grab.
     Bravo, sir, and thank you!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Emerging from Jump
In-Reply-To: <F74C2duiiQ03FcDddXA0001d5ae@hotmail.com>
References: <F74C2duiiQ03FcDddXA0001d5ae@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020612080315.C26076@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jeff Rowse wrote:
> Leaving aside the question of why this effect has never been noted
> before, what sort of changes would something like this (having two
> or three minutes notice of an impending arrival) wreak upon the
> varied Traveller 'universes'?

Not much.  Two or three minutes is next to nothing in a Traveller
setting, where space combat takes place over many hours.  There may be
minor effects on other things, but I can't think of anything right
now.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
Message-ID: <20020611220535.88969.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>

Any discussion of freedom of speech always reminds me
of that great qoute from Terry Pratchett's Discworld
series.

"One man, one vote. And he's that man." (Refferring to
the ruling patrician of the city of Ankh-Morpork)

James.

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au
- Find yourself a bargain!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <002101c210ee$0709f870$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <20611.142137.0U4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> <quote>
>
>> > The metric system has been legal in the US for over 200 years.
>
> </quote>
>
> Well I'm not sure about where you live but I know for a fact that our local
> paper posts daily in the classifieds that according to state law it is
> illegal to use anything but imperial measurement for the sale of wood. 

And I'd *love* to see what would happen if that was challenged in court
as conflicting with federal law. 

I doubt the law would be overturned, but the arguments would be most
interesting. 

> On a
> personal note I went to a local hardware store and asked for a tape measure
> that was marked in centimeters and was told "Where do you think you are?
> This is America!" (I'm not joking!)  I discussed this event with a friend
> who works on houses for a living and his remark was that under no
> circumstances will the US ever switch from using imperial units until they
> are first no longer taught in local schools and second, laws are passed to
> forbid builders from using non-metric units.

Metric *is* creeping in, slowly. It's simpler to have *own* production
line instead of two, even if exports aren't the majority of your
business. They just have to be a sizable fraction.

And given that (as I recall) there's only *one* country using
"imperial" measurements (and it's not the US, we us a different but
related system, compare the size of the Imperail and US gallons, for
example) and said country is some island or some such, we are going to
switch eventually. Kicking and screaming all the way.

There are now *4 sizees of metric pop bottles that I've seen (3 liter,
2 liter, 1 liter, and I think I've seen 1/2 liter) and other stuff is
popping up. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:15:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:15:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <m3vg8qyn6s.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20611.142916.1U0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>>
>> > Don't try to make _me_ do extra work to support _your_ prejudices...
>> 
>> But *I'm* right! :-)
>
> *grin*
>
>> And I'm not trying to make you do extra work. You did that yourself
>> when you converted from Kelvin to Rankine.
>
> That was to correct the inconsistancy of using AU, parsecs, miles and
> Kelvin (I'm using GURPS Traveller rules as the underlying basis for
> the code; eventually I'll do CT generation, but that'll just be an
> overlay).  From here on out everything's very nice and
> straightforward.

AU and Parsecs are neither metric *nor* "US". 

And the parsec is *based* on the size of the AU. As I recall, it's
something like:

1 pc = arc-cotan(1") AU
(that's 1 second, not 1 inch!)

> Seriously, I believe that if you tried either the C or Scheme
> interface to travlib that you'd find it quite nice to use.  It's
> really very nice.

I avoid C. I'll eventually have to learn more, just to patch some old
code and do some translating. But I get along pretty well with Pascal
and BASIC. 

I still need to learn APL (more because you can do *such* strange stuff
with it), and eventually I'll dig out my old FORTRAN compiler. 

> IIRC you use a Mac.  I'd _love_ to know if gtk+ and travlib will
> compile thereon.  I know that the GIMP has been ported, but it looks
> like the MacGIMP does not offer downloads but only purchases.

Actually, I mostly use PCs. I have some Macs (and I'm trying to figure
out how to get the ethernet "card" on the Performa 6205 working, so I
can connect to the PCs and to the Internet). I also have a bunch of
TRS-80 gear, some other weird Tandy stuff (Tandy 2000) and then the
gear gets *really* weird.

If I was going to "port" stuff, I'd try porting it to the OS/2 box.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:16:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:16:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <003101c21163$3682c710$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <20611.143826.2e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> (The cord, which is the only specific non-metric wood measurement
>> I'm familiar with, is not actually an "Imperial" measurement, as
>> it isn't on the standards roster like the other's)
>>
>
> hmmm...again maybe a local thing, but I was taught in school that the cord
> was the cubic equivalent of measuring land by acres.  A cord is equal to 128
> cubic feet.  Metric systems use their length terms for measures of area and
> cubic area (ex. 2 square meters or 5 cubic meters) where the Imperial
> measurement system has specific names for area and cubic area (acre, rood
> and cord).  Due to the influence of the metric system and the current trend
> in education most people have become used to using metric terminology with
> imperial units.  My grandfather used to refer to the size of his shed by the
> number of cords it could hold, never once refering to square footage...

Actually, the cord *of wood*, the "perch of stone" and several other
units were *not* measurements of volume per se. They were measurements
of a specific *amount* of a specific product. 

Most places that have any sort of standards about cords also have rules
about the size of the pieces of wood making up the cord and the amount
of space between them in the stack.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:16:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:16:52 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEKNEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20611.144505.1N4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>> In line with Larsen's commentary may I add this?
>>>
>>> A town only a few hours drive from the wired and wireless hub of Seattle
>>> Washington, my home, just got phone lines last year.
>>>
>>> Additional--unconfirmed--I heard the story of a town that ran fiber to
>>> every house in the town only to have the bundles lie, unconnected,
>>> behind the local Telco. Seems it hadn't the capability to serve the
>>> local fiber.
>>
>>Unlikely. While fiber can carry a lot more circuits than wire, if the
>>local exchange could handle the load on the wires, switching the load
>>to fiber wouldn't change the required *capacity* in the phone
>>switch(es).
>>
> I suspect that their purpose was to make wide band communication
> available to every house, not replace the existing capacity. In that
> case it is quite possible that the local switching stations, which
> could handle voice traffic would not have been able to handle
> broadband network traffic.

Thing is, the upgrade to let it handle broadband isn't all that much
more than the one to let it handle voice channels (digital) over fiber.

You basicly replace the line cards in the switch. Either way you need a
"multiplexer/demultiplexer" (can't recall the right term) to interface
the fiber to the switch. The only difference is whether or not you
include broadband capability over not. 

>>But at both the phone switch and the customer end of the fiber, you
>>have to replace the "interface" equipment.
>>
>>Given the cost of deploying that much fiber, though I can't see them
>>doing that and *not* upgrading the phone switches to handle it.
>>
> It sounded to me like the town paid for the fiber, but expect the
> telcom to provide the switching equipment.

In which case they got a rude awakening when informed how much the
required upgrade would cost and what it'd do to rates. 

On the other hand, if the phone company was *smart* (and the town
allowed them to), they'd start using the fiber to replace the trunk
lines linking switches in different exchanges. 

Then they could start moving to satellite switches (nothing to do with
space, rather "switches" of more limited capacity (say 100 to 1000
lines rather than the normal 10,000 or more lines), located closer to
the customers). 

Fiber on the "last mile" (ie directly connected to the house) has some
problems in regards to both equipment (you either need an expensive
interface box at the house, or to have the customers replace all their
existing phone gear with *expensive* units that use fiber instead of
wire) and various support issues. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:17:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:17:26 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92A78D2.5E4C0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20611.145716.1r7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> But at both the phone switch and the customer end of the fiber, you
>> have to replace the "interface" equipment.
>> 
>> Given the cost of deploying that much fiber, though I can't see them
>> doing that and *not* upgrading the phone switches to handle it.
>> 
>> Dealing with fiber to customers gets messier though. Because you have
>> to figure out how you are going to keep the phones working if power
>> goes out. With coppper wires, the phone company is providing the power
>> from the battery banks (and backup generators) at the office. With
>> fiber, they need to find some other way to keep the phones "live" when
>> the power lines are down, but the phone lines aren't.
>
> I don't know of any POTS customer (non-business) that uses fiber directly.
> I have fiber to the curb, but plain old copper in my house.

Right, and you have that "interface equipment" I referred to at the
curb as well. And it needs power, both to run itself, *and* to power
your telephones.

Phones expect 48 VDC, and a superimposed 90 VAC ringing signal. Some
will operate on less (24 V, even 12 V in some cases), but you can't
count on them working on less.

So you either run power cables along with the fiber, or you rely on the
power at the residence. Both have problems.

At least with isolated units like cell towers, you can use solar
charged batteries or the like as a backup if grid power fails (or if
there isn't any).

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEKOEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20611.150311.6U7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> This sounds very similar to me of the way in which standard digital T1 and
> T3 lines already handle communication. Most people don't realize that their
> voice communication is already compressed and sent in microsecond burst
> along the communication trunks to be expanded at the other end, rather than
> sent at audio frequencies like old fashion radio.

It's digitized to a 64kbps data stream (actually only 56k as a low
order bit is sometimes "stolen" for signalling between switches).

The compression is on the digital data stream, not the analog voice.
It's not sent in bursts, it's just multiplxed with other channels. As I
recall, a T1 is 24B+D (ie 24 64k "B" channels and 1 16k data channel
for signalling purposes).

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:18:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:18:44 2002
Subject: [TML] MTBF = Horse Pucky
In-Reply-To: <F253pwACkWHZqYW8BYX00016e09@hotmail.com>
References: <F253pwACkWHZqYW8BYX00016e09@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020612081455.D26076@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jeff Rowse wrote:
> As any maintenance or repair engineer can tell you, stated "Mean Time 
> Between Failures" is often as useful as a chocolate frying pan.

Yes.  People always misinterpret MTBF as some sort of "lifespan".  It
isn't, and was never intended to be.  It is a measure of reliability
of *new* equipment under standardised conditions.


>  It is almost the same as saying "We had a [insert test object here]
> on test for 200 hours and it showed [n] amount of stress.  This
> means it has a (projected) MTBF of 2million hours."

Yes, almost.  What it means is "we had 1000 [objects] on test for 200
hours, and 20 failures during that time.  The MTBF is about 10000
hours.  If you don't bother to look up the definition of MTBF, we'll
happily let you believe that the [object] will last 10000 hours."


> an MTBF of 75,000 hours, *according to the supplier*.

Yes, it probably was true too.  If you had 1000 of them, all fairly
new, you'd probably get an average of about 2 failures per week.  This
says nothing about how long they *last*.  If you read it like that,
that's not the suppliers fault.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <200206111818.IFW00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200206111818.IFW00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020612081654.E26076@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> As an indication of how little we know about what to intentionally
> grow to sustain life, take a look at the failure of that sealed
> environment experiment (Bio- what?).

Not that again.  Yes, a big publicity stunt failed.  We knew (as a
scientific community) even back then a *lot* more than the designers
of that particular bubble did.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:20:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sparky)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:20:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
References: <NDBBIEPGALFKHNKLGFIJKEFNCJAA.tvanderneut@futureorbits.com> <000c01c20f8d$a1674420$309193c3@martinjd>
Message-ID: <019701c21195$99265260$b50fa118@upstairs>

My silly question has to do with travel time at light speed. I'm reading up
on some of the theories of space/time and I'm a bit confused about how time
passes for those going FTL in reference to those not traveling at light
speed. I don't see a quck explanation in my copy of T4 or in my friend's
copy of GURPS Traveller, so I thought I'd ask here.

As I understand it...say a guy hops in a FTL ship and goes for a cruise away
from the Earth. Time slows down for him (obvious to any observers but to the
guy-in-the-FTL-ship time appears to be flowing normally.) So when the guy
returns, he is only a bit older than when he left but many years might have
passed for those on the Earth.

If it took years for any rescuers to arrive, what would be the point of
sending an SOS? How would intrasystem commerce work if you were working with
many-year's worth of transport time for goods? How does Traveller solve this
time-lapse in communications and transport?

Hmmm...it just hit me that there's probably a FAQ for this list that
explains this or perhaps there's a thread from the archives that covers
this. Can anyone point me to an answer? Traveller seems to use quite a bit
of hard science, so I'm sure there's an answer.

Thanks in advance!

Sparky


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:22:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:22:08 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine
Message-ID: <20020611.181735.-266259.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:18:33 +0200 P-O Bergstedt <zho@berka.com> writes:
> Hi!
> 
> Just for fun, there is now a 
> LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine at my site at URL:
> http://zho.berka.com/goodies/lbb_render.html

Ooh, that is *neat*!  Thanks!


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <20611.142916.1U0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20611.142916.1U0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <m3hek9cumr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
> 
> AU and Parsecs are neither metric *nor* "US". 

I dunno--I've always thought of them as being in the same spirit as
standard measures.  Which is to say, units developed to suit a
purpose, as opposed to satisfying some scheme.

> And the parsec is *based* on the size of the AU.  As I recall, it's
> something like:
> 
> 1 pc = arc-cotan(1") AU
> (that's 1 second, not 1 inch!)

The definition I heard is that it's the hypoteneuse of a right
triangle the short leg of which is 1 AU and whose opposing angle is
1"--which is to say, the verbose way of saying the above.

> I still need to learn APL (more because you can do *such* strange
> stuff with it), and eventually I'll dig out my old FORTRAN compiler.

You can do some pretty cool stuff with Scheme--and it doesn't require
a funky font:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Ha Mashiyach qam!  Ken hu qam!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
Message-ID: <F194AY1RfKYglKJ9Nb60001b919@hotmail.com>

From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>

     "...but on the other hand their biotechnology is first rate."


Mr. Bradley,

     Perhaps first rate when judged against a group of their peers; other 
Third World nations.
     Thanks to their totalitarian version of quality control; the jefe says 
it's good, so it's good, Cuban bio-tech and pharmaceutical products can only 
be imported by other equally wretched countries.  Very few of their products 
can pass muster for export to the First World, the EU included.

     "That's why the US government was telling lies about them selling 
chemical weapons a few weeks ago - the US doesn't want Cuba to be able to 
make money out of one of the few areas of their economy that they are 
competitive in."

     Leaving the chemical weapons charges aside for the moment, I believe 
the US government, and the drugs companies which own large chunks of it, are 
more worried about Cuban piracy of WTO patented products.  What Red China is 
to software and DVDs, Cuba is to pharmaceuticals.
     As loathe as I am to defend the drug companies, I can understand a 
small part of their argument.  When a knock off of your product, shabbily 
manufactured and packaged to look exactly like the real thing, fails to cure 
or even kills, you have a serious problem.

     "One of Cuba's other "high-tech" industries, incidentally, is organic 
farming.  They've had to develop agricultural methods that weren't dependent 
on oil and other chemicals."

     Which, of course, is why they cannot feed themselves.  Even that noted 
agricultural giant, the late Soviet Union, had to ship food stuffs to them.
     A recent tussle among the kleptocrats in Washington was about modifying 
the current Cuban trade embargo to allow shipments of food stuffs.  FWIW, I 
believe the trade embargo is the greatest friend Castro ever had.  The 
embargo has much more to do with winning emigre votes in Florida than 
forcing Castro from power.
     Does anyone else find it ironic that repatriated dollars, to the tune 
of several billions each year, from those same emigres does more to keep 
Cuba afloat than anything else?

     "Potentially/eventually this could be a powerful asset to other Third 
World countries.  Of course, this would cut into the profits of companies 
like Monsanto..."

     Which, IMHO, would a very good thing.  Unfortunately, no one, Cuba 
included, has yet demonstrated the ability to reach the required farming 
yield levels without at least a modicum of help from Honking Big Machines or 
other technologies.

     "Not all technology involves Honking Big Machines."

     Very true.  The one thing I've found missing from most games, books, 
movies, etc. set in the future is the "softening" or "greening" of 
technology.  Everything seems to be focussed on mega-ultra-heavy industrial 
schemes.  Steel production in 2000 has nothing like the enviromental impact 
it did in 1900.  Why shouldn't the same hold true for other aspects of 
technology?

     "Don't mess with Space Hippies."

     I've posted this before and will most likely post it again and again; 
No high ascetic, touchy-feely, houlier-than-thou, society can exist without 
contact with a real society that gets all the dirty work done.  Militant 
Veganism, Neo-Luddism, High Church Enviromentalism, and the rest of that ilk 
are naught but LUXURIES which are ultimately supported by the very forces 
and processes they profess to loathe.
     You can only bitch when your stomach is full.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92B9A8A.5E6E4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1023818269.5627.ajackson@ping> <B92B9A8A.5E6E4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020612083714.F26076@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Just did a very limited check on shipping prices.  Current cost per
> ton to ship via sea from Calcutta to New York is running $120 per
> ton.  That's about Cr40, an order of magnitude cheaper than the cost
> to ship via starship.

That's also about the longest haul there is.  Shipping between closer
nations costs substantially less.  e.g. Auckland to San Francisco at
is about US$4000 per 40-foot container, including packing, customs,
CABAF and terminal fees.  Such a container has a volume of about 6
dtons.  That's about 220 Cr per dton, or roughly 44 Cr/tonne mass.
Not bad, I got the same figures as Tod :)

Such a haul would be roughly like 10 parsecs based on the number of
other nations within that range and considering nations to be the
equivalent of star systems in Traveller.  So Traveller interstellar
shipping costs about 30 times as much as real-world shipping between
nations.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:38:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:38:38 2002
Subject: [TML] The Imperium IMTU (long)
In-Reply-To: <E17Htdh-0004af-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B92BC9CB.5E7B4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/11/02 2:54 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> 
> True, which makes and excellent case that the Imperium does use
> highly standardized tech.  Given the glacial pace of technological
> advancement in the Imperium, things that slow down technological
> advancement are *very* helpful ways to explain why tech advances
> so slowly.  Also, I'm certain the Vilani would have used highly
> standardized technology and having that hang on makes sense.
> 
> Standardized tech makes a *great* deal of sense in the Imperium.
> 

Good point.  An this meshes nicely with the Vilani psychology.  But it does
not explain the same retarded technological growth in, say, the Solomani
Confederation, where, according to canon, those pesky Solomani are divisive,
adventurous and will give anything a go.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20611.150311.6U7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B92BCA96.5E7C3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/11/02 4:03 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
>> This sounds very similar to me of the way in which standard digital T1 and
>> T3 lines already handle communication. Most people don't realize that their
>> voice communication is already compressed and sent in microsecond burst
>> along the communication trunks to be expanded at the other end, rather than
>> sent at audio frequencies like old fashion radio.
> 
> It's digitized to a 64kbps data stream (actually only 56k as a low
> order bit is sometimes "stolen" for signalling between switches).
> 
> The compression is on the digital data stream, not the analog voice.
> It's not sent in bursts, it's just multiplxed with other channels. As I
> recall, a T1 is 24B+D (ie 24 64k "B" channels and 1 16k data channel
> for signalling purposes).

But weren't we talking about cellular packets, not digital voice over wire?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Santanocheev
Message-ID: <20020611.183801.-266259.2.Knightsky@juno.com>


On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:38:32 +0200 (MEST) Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen
<rancke@diku.dk> writes:

> I'm assuming you mean Norris' illness. That was a sham on Norris' 
part.
> Some time before the 5FW he had sent a request to the Emperor asking
for
> authority to lead the Imperial forces in the Marches. The Imperial
Warrant
> granting him his wish had been on a cruiser that went down on Algine,
an
> interdicted world. Norris had some very vague evidence suggesting
> that his warrant might be abourd that cruiser. His problem was that
> evidently subsector dukes do not have the authority to authorize
> exceptions to interdicts even in their own duchies (strangely 
> enough), so he pretended to be sick and led a secret expedition down on
the 
> surface of Algine to find his warrant. When he returned he removed
Santanocheev 
> and took over the conduct of the war. (All this is spelled out in
_Spinward
> Marches Campaign_)

Thanks for all the info (I don't own SMC, unfortunately).


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:45:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:45:12 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92B9C88.5E6E9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <000f01c21172$472a1780$1c577b83@Gideon> <B92B9C88.5E6E9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020612084409.G26076@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Any idea what the cost of shipping by these bulk tenders turns out
> to be?

Not much cheaper than free traders.  Traveller starships are very
close to a fixed price per unit volume regardless of size, and
mortgage costs are by far the largest component of operational costs.
That means large ships aren't much cheaper to run than smaller ones.


> Make sure you factor in the cost to boost goods to orbit, and back
> down again, as well as the cost to transport from port to port.

These costs are pretty minor.  Non-jump vehicles are really cheap by
comparison with starships, and can handle a *lot* more goods per week.
Administration and labour costs actually start to become a factor, but
given contragrav it works out cheaper than real-world ocean shipping.


> What are the total operational costs to move a ton of cargo 1 jump?

Going by Far Trader rules, very close to the actual freight prices at
about 1000-1200 Cr/dton for jump-2.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:47:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:47:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <019701c21195$99265260$b50fa118@upstairs>
Message-ID: <001301c21199$dc68a830$0b01a8c0@duck>

> As I understand it...say a guy hops in a FTL ship and goes for a cruise
away
> from the Earth. Time slows down for him (obvious to any observers but to
the
> guy-in-the-FTL-ship time appears to be flowing normally.) So when the guy
> returns, he is only a bit older than when he left but many years might
have
> passed for those on the Earth.

Your answer is Jumpspace.  AFAIK the effects you describe apply as you
approach light speed in our universe, or "dimension" if you will.

Jumpspace negates that.  When using a jump drive your ship completely
leaves our dimension and enters a different dimension known as
"Jumpspace".  Somehow, the way the jump drive is constructed in your
ship completely protects you from the weird properties of this
dimension.  After about a weeks time, as perceived in our dimension,
you leave the Jumpspace dimension and return to our dimension.
Because you were protected from the properties of Jumpspace you
also perceive the passage of a weeks worth of time.

In short, "magic".  Again, AFAIK with our knowledge of physics,
there is no real way to have effective FTL travel.  So, in Traveller
(and just about every other SF setting) we "cheat" by accessing
a different dimension whose properties we can conveniently set
to allow effective FTL travel.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <E17HrUH-0005uC-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <20020611182504.DBE8A27B34@mail.travellercentral.com> <E17HrUH-0005uC-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020612084751.H26076@freeman.little-possums.net>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> Hmm, I'm now reminded of a fairly wacky James White novel called
> _The Watch Below_.
[...]
> They built pedal-powered generators to charge the batteries to run
> the lights, used the light to grow plants, recycled water through
> some means I've forgotten and survived fairly well

Yes, you're right -- it's wacky.  Plants need more light energy than
they supply to people who eat them.  People aren't 100% efficient at
using that energy to pedal bikes, either.  So where does the extra
energy come from?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:50:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:50:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEJCEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEJCEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <p04330101b92b50f0a2d8@[198.123.22.158]>

At 10:45 AM -0400 6/9/02, Terry Carlino wrote:
>  >
>>Well, most PCs aren't members of the TAS but the info isn't indicated
>  >as something that most PC don't know, so that says to me it is
>>routinely promulgated beyond the TAS.  The character creation
>>certainly includes things like very low social standing so that say
>>to me that PC are not all the the elite of society"
>>--
>
>Except of course they are all "Travellers" in a society where space travels
>is horrendously expensive. That makes them members of an elite group.
>Perhaps not "the elite of society" but certainly not the average Joe in the
>streets.
>
>For example, if TNS is only available within the XT line, and only
>offworlders and starport workers are permitted inside the line, then PC's
>are members of an elite group with access to off world information.

IMO, it is like a luxury cruiser.  The passengers are all of a 
certain level of wealth, but the crew (janitors, etc) can be of 
almost any class.  And even if the info is only disbursed to some 
people on the ship, people will talk to each other.  The impression I 
get is the TNS items become generally known to ship crews and port 
personnel.  These guys will talk to the locals on most worlds.

>
>Try to imagine being part of such a society. Unless you are willing to leave
>everyone you know behind, effectively forever you will never leave your home
>of birth.

That seems excessive to me.  In most ports you can move fairly freely 
between a port and the local world and I would expect the port to 
have number of local workers and traveller to know people on the 
world.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:51:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:51:12 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20020611201139.66AB927B51@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <B92B9A8A.5E6E4%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020611201139.66AB927B51@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020612085003.I26076@freeman.little-possums.net>

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> True, if 3 to 1 holds IYTU, but not if it is closer to 1 to 1.
> Maybe the conversion rate is germaine after all.

It is.  But you need a 1 CrImp = US$0.10 conversion before Traveller
shipping costs approach real-world ones.

(BTW, I use 1 CrImp = A$10 as a guide in My Traveller Universe)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20020612084409.G26076@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023835947.2225.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Tod Glenn wrote:
> > Any idea what the cost of shipping by these bulk tenders turns out
> > to be?
> 
> Not much cheaper than free traders.  Traveller starships are very
> close to a fixed price per unit volume regardless of size, and
> mortgage costs are by far the largest component of operational costs.
> That means large ships aren't much cheaper to run than smaller ones.

They're somewhat cheaper due to fixed costs relating to electronics, but the
main difference is whether it's streamlined or not, and whether it's a
scheduled route at around 30 jumps/year or a tramp route at around 24.

> > What are the total operational costs to move a ton of cargo 1 jump?
> 
> Going by Far Trader rules, very close to the actual freight prices at
> about 1000-1200 Cr/dton for jump-2.

Surprise, that ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <p04330100b92c2feb3f0e@[143.232.119.186]>

At 11:03 PM +1200 6/11/02, Frank Pitt wrote:
>So the US is stuck using a bastardized version of an
>antiquated system forced on them by their last
>overlords, and they're _proud_ of it!

Its more like they don't care and don't want to have to adapt to a new system.

Just for the record, the US system is slightly less convenient (not 
all easy factors of 10) but otherwise is just as valid a system as 
measurement as metric (and Europeans complain about _American_ 
ethnocentricism)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 16:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 11 15:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
Message-ID: <20020611.185214.-266259.3.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:50:03 +1000 Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

> (BTW, I use 1 CrImp = A$10 as a guide in My Traveller Universe)

Interesting.  I use 1CrImp = A$3 IMTU, which seems to work fairly well. 
Out of curiousity, how did you derive the above-listed conversion rate?


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 17:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Jun 11 16:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
Message-ID: <F64QIWGhCtEJ6XNt3Bq0001caf2@hotmail.com>

From: "Sparky" <sparky13@nycap.rr.com>

     "My silly question has to do with travel time at light speed."


Sir,

     Why, there's nothing silly about your question at all.

     "I'm reading up on some of the theories of space/time and I'm a bit 
confused about how time passes for those going FTL in reference to those not 
traveling at light speed."

     That's going to depend on the system used to travel near c, at c, or 
faster than c.  Because this is a Traveller list, I'll only answer the 
question in terms of Our Olde Game's standard manuever and jump drives.  
Okay?
     There are plenty of superb physics boffins here on the List and I'm 
sure they will be able to give you reams of mathematics with regards to 
this, but this is my answer to your question;

     Time dilation happens extremely rarely in the Traveller Universe 
because vessels in the Traveller Universe only extremely rarely approach 
those fractions of c where time dilation occurs.

     In other words, vessels in Traveller never really go fast enough to 
worry about the effects of time dilation due to velocity!
     But Larsen, you rotound reprobate, you cry, vessels in Traveller travel 
Faster Than Light!  Has your scotch sodden synapses finally gone on the 
fritz?
     Not at all, my boy, I reply, pulling a moth eaten rabbit out of my 
battered boater.  Sure, vessels in Traveller travel Faster Than Light, BUT 
NOT IN OUR UNIVERSE!
     Vessels in Traveller jump.  They cheat(1).  They take a short cut.  
They do not pass Go or collect 200 Cr on their way between Roup and Regina, 
because they're NOT ON THE MONOPOLY BOARD AT ALL!
     Vessels step into a jump dimension at the beginning of their journey, 
do all their "travelling" in that dimension, and step back out at their 
destination.  They never even get near light speed, let alone surpass it, in 
our universe.

     "As I understand it...say a guy hops in a FTL ship and goes for a 
cruise away from the Earth. Time slows down for him (obvious to any 
observers but to the guy-in-the-FTL-ship time appears to be flowing 
normally.) So when the guy returns, he is only a bit older than when he left 
but many years might have passed for those on the Earth."

     If, a big IF, he did all that within our own Universe.  Remember, FTL 
travel in Traveller means that we step outside of our Universe and take a 
short cut.

     "How would intrasystem commerce work if you were working with
many-year's worth of transport time for goods?"

     Vessels flitting about within a system never reach those velocities in 
which time dilation would a factor.  A laser, maser, or radio signal would 
still travel faster between Pluto and Earth than a Traveller space ship 
could.

     "How does Traveller solve this time-lapse in communications and 
transport?"

     There's nothing to solve.  A jump, whether it moves you 1 nanometer, 1 
kilometer, 1 AU, or 1 parsec takes around a week.  Roughly put, if 
travelling the distance you have in mind in our universe would take more 
than a week, you use your jump drive.  If it would take less than a week, 
you use your manuever drive.  And in both cases you never get going fast 
enough to worry about time dilation!
     I hope this clears up any questions you may have had.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

(1)  That's right, they cheat!  Which explains why Whipsnades know so much 
about jump space.

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sparky)
Date: Tue Jun 11 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
References: <001301c21199$dc68a830$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <01fb01c2119c$aaf37ed0$b50fa118@upstairs>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
> In short, "magic".  Again, AFAIK with our knowledge of physics,
> there is no real way to have effective FTL travel.  So, in Traveller
> (and just about every other SF setting) we "cheat" by accessing
> a different dimension whose properties we can conveniently set
> to allow effective FTL travel.

I knew I was simply overlooking something obvious.

> Your answer is Jumpspace.  AFAIK the effects you describe apply as you
> approach light speed in our universe, or "dimension" if you will.
> Jumpspace negates that.  When using a jump drive your ship completely
> leaves our dimension and enters a different dimension known as
> "Jumpspace".  Somehow, the way the jump drive is constructed in your
> ship completely protects you from the weird properties of this
> dimension.  After about a weeks time, as perceived in our dimension,
> you leave the Jumpspace dimension and return to our dimension.
> Because you were protected from the properties of Jumpspace you
> also perceive the passage of a weeks worth of time.

This is what confused me. I'm reading a book called "Hyperspace' by Michio
Kaku (1994) and it describes some of the propertes of some other
dimensions...which, of course, preclude FTL travel in this manner.

One last question to the list-at-large....Why does Jump last one week? Is
there some principle that was applied and produced that result or was it
arbitrary on Marc Miller's part?

Thanks!

Sparky


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 17:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Jun 11 16:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
Message-ID: <F154jYg5OfVoA1MyqRV0001bb84@hotmail.com>

From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

     "Yes, you're right -- it's wacky.  Plants need more light energy than 
they supply to people who eat them.  People aren't 100% efficient at using 
that energy to pedal bikes, either.  So where does the extra
energy come from?"


Mr. Little,

     Perhaps they're burning a large stack of Poetic Licenses?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 17:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 16:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <200206110620.XAA03470@ping.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20611.153105.1V1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
>
>>JR Holmes wrote:
>>> True that a given frequency can only carry a certain amount of
>>>signal,
>>
>>Actually, a given *range* of frequencies can only carry a certain
>>amount of signal.  A single frequency carries nothing -- you have to
>>modulate it (which introduces sidebands).
>
> Well, there's always AM instead of FM.  Of course, there's limits to how
> narrow a frequency can be.

Modulating an AM signal spreads the frequency too. Just not in the same
way as with an FM signal.

That's *why* AM stations in the US are assigned frequencies with a
certain minimum spacing.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 17:13:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 16:13:35 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20020611120700.C23503@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20611.154700.8C1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> If the tech isn't "magic",
>
> This is Traveller.  Of course the tech is magic.
>
>
>> That's going to require a fusion plant or some *really* impressive
>> batteries (which will have to contain considerably *more* than 64
>> MJ/kg to have enough power left over for moving the *rest* of the
>> satellite).
>
> In other words, easily done with TL8 power cells.

*We* Are TL 8 and we'd have trouble supplying that much power in such a
small package (if we can do it at all)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 17:14:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 16:14:15 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <200206111647.IFT05572@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20611.153643.6a5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn asks
>>Subject: Re: [TML] hi tech versus low tech  
>>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>>
>>In the opinion of the list, what is the minimal imported 
>>sustainable technology?  Certainly, there is some 
>>technological level that can be kept
>>operating for a good period of time even when it is not 
>>produced locally.
>>
>
> Mechanical devices seem to be simple to repair, as long as 
> they aren't too small (smaller than the inside of mechanical 
> watch) or too high stress (turbine blades for advanced 
> fighters).  Most combustion engines (a firearm is a simple 
> combustion engine) are fairly easy to keep in repair.
>
> Electronics generally require spare parts.  I don't know many 
> people who could fashion even a vacuum tube.  But if your 
> planet has some fabrication facilities for spare parts - you 
> may be in luck for some time, even if you couldn't invent the 
> same item.  There's a big difference between being able to 
> invent an item, and being able to produce it.

Well, this is turns some types of "extreme" worlds into an *advantage*.
For example, on a vacuum world, you can just go outside to build tubes
and even though the vacuum near a habitat will be kind of "dirty" it'll
likely be good enough that you just need a slightly larger "getter" in
the tube (a "getter" is a bit of metal that goes into the tube and is
heated via an induction coil so as to react with any remaining traces
of gas. It's why there was that slivery "raindow" effect at some spot
on most tubes)

> If we take a typical resort such as the Caymans, their 
> ability to invent items is rather limited.  Even their 
> ability to produce maintenance parts for items is severely 
> limited (not because they might not be engineers, but for 
> economical and resource reasons).  But they still have cell 
> phones, connections to the Internet, electric blenders, etc.
>
> For production purposes they might be considered really low 
> tech - TL 5?  But a tourist still lives at the current global 
> tech level there.

My take on TL is "what can you reasonably expect to buy? And what can
you reasonably expect to get fixed if it breaks?"

And for "buy" I think I'd go with "buy at a not too inflated price".

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 17:15:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Duncan Jones)
Date: Tue Jun 11 16:15:07 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
Message-ID: <F8CBB927101AA247AD03DC32C17FA76C1940AD@scooter.lpc.local>

Hi there,
I don't know if this has already been answered, but a 20 ft container mea=
sures 20' length, 8' wide and height can be either 8' (default height), 8=
'6" or 9'6" (referred to as 'hicube'). The other standard container size =
is 40'length with the other dimensions the same as for the 20'.
Cheers,
Duncan

-----Original Message-----
From: Eris Reddoch [mailto:erisred@telocity.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 12 June 2002 9:26=20
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech


On 06/11/02 at 04:44 PM,  "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> said:


>>Anyone have an idea about how this compares with bulk shipping by
>>rail or sea?

>My wife works for a large shipping company, and says that to ship a
>car, which requires a 20 ft container, costs about $2500.
>At a quick estimate, a 20 ft container looks like it would take up on
>a deckplan a little more than 5 displacement tons (I'm all CT here,
>so I'm sure others can come up with more exact figures).

Do you know the dimensions of a "standard 20 ft container?" That would
let us figure its volume and translate it into Traveller dTons. =20
We've got 14 cubic meters, 13.5 cubic meters and 500 cubic feet
equaling a dTon in different versions of Traveller, but are all of
those measurements are close enough to each other not to worry about.

>For the record, you have to ship in standard containers, so if you're
>trying to ship a single snub pistol, you'd have to take it to a
>consolidator to be put in a container with other freight. Big
>shipping companies are not Fed Ex or UPS.

>Traveller's cargo rates certainly compare favorably with these
>numbers. If anything, they're a little cheaper for bulk hauling, and
>it would seem to me that interstellar trade would not only be
>practical and profitable, but taking place on a massive scale.

You're saying, then, about $500 per dton of displacement?

Eris
--=20
-----------------------------------------------------------
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http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 17:16:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 16:16:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1023835947.2225.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023837341.7543.ajackson@ping>

Anthony Jackson writes:
> 
> They're somewhat cheaper due to fixed costs relating to electronics, but
> the main difference is whether it's streamlined or not, and whether it's a
> scheduled route at around 30 jumps/year or a tramp route at around 24.

For comparison, with GT:

200 dton SL trader (unarmed, 2 turrets, 5 staterooms, 1 sickbay): Crew 9, 69
cargo, 35.8 MCr (0.52 MCr/dton).

2,000 dton SL trader (unarmed, 10 turrets, 15 staterooms, 1 sickbay): Crew 21,
900 cargo, 300 MCr (0.33 MCr/dton).

2,000 dton USL trader (unarmred, 10 turrets, 15 staterooms, 1 sickbay, 1 20
dton shuttle):  Crew 22, 1220 cargo, 307 MCr (0.25 MCr/dton).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 17:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sparky)
Date: Tue Jun 11 16:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
References: <F64QIWGhCtEJ6XNt3Bq0001caf2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <022301c211a0$29faff70$b50fa118@upstairs>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> A jump, whether it moves you 1 nanometer, 1
> kilometer, 1 AU, or 1 parsec takes around a week.  Roughly put, if
> travelling the distance you have in mind in our universe would take more
> than a week, you use your jump drive.  If it would take less than a week,
> you use your manuever drive.  And in both cases you never get going fast
> enough to worry about time dilation!
> I hope this clears up any questions you may have had.

Except for that one last question (Why a week?) that I just posted in a
reply to another poster, that answers all my questions just fine.  And that
was very entertaining to boot.

Although time dilation must still factor in there somewhat if there is a
difference in clocks in earth orbit and the earth's surface. I'll just
assume that that is figured into the navigation calculations. I'll fret no
more about that pesky problem, don't you worry! And thanks.

Sparky



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 17:36:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Tue Jun 11 16:36:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b92b50f0a2d8@[198.123.22.158]>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEMFEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>Try to imagine being part of such a society. Unless you are willing to
leave
>>everyone you know behind, effectively forever you will never leave your
home
>>of birth.
>
>That seems excessive to me.  In most ports you can move fairly freely
>between a port and the local world and I would expect the port to
>have number of local workers and traveller to know people on the
>world.
>--
I was speaking in a more general sense. Imperial society can be divided into
three broad categories. The Rich and Powerful who can afford the tremendous
expense of interstellar travel on a regular basis. People associated with
the shipping trade (include in this category all those who work on ships or
travel on Imperial and Megacorp business.) Everybody else.

Category one is a very small minority of the total population of the
Imperium. Category two is certainly a larger, but still very tiny percent of
the total population. In the everybody else category the only way anyone
will travel is basically a one way trip to emigrate, and even this number
will be a small percentage.

What I'm getting at is that if you aren't rich or in the military or a
member of one of the space shipping professions you will not be able to
travel out of your own system unless you're emigrating somewhere on a one
way trip. These people will never see their relative or friends again. This
situation is very much like the situation in the days of sail, or even the
early 20th century.

They will make new friends, but they will not call their sister, who lives
in another system, or drop by to visit for the holidays. How much interest
they have in news from other systems is debatable. Someone in the Marches
might want to know what's happening on Capital, because it's Capital. How
much will they care what's happening on the Rim?

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 17:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Tue Jun 11 16:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92ABEB7.5E58C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMGEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> This sounds very similar to me of the way in which standard digital T1
and
>> T3 lines already handle communication. Most people don't realize that
their
>> voice communication is already compressed and sent in microsecond burst
>> along the communication trunks to be expanded at the other end, rather
than
>> sent at audio frequencies like old fashion radio.
>
>Only in digital systems.  There are still a few analogue systems out there.
>
>But you are correct.  In digital cell systems, voice is packetized by the
>vocoder.  Much of this has to do with noise suppression as well as signal
>compression.
>
>This processing creates a delay in the signal, which is quite noticeable if
>you call another cell phone user who is in the same room.
>--
O contrair, mo friar (very bad pseudo French.) This is done on analog phone
lines too using a process called Time Division Multiplexing (known as TDM in
telcom dialect.) On analog trunk lines frequency division multiplexing is
used, which allows even tighter packing. A T1 using TDM can carry 24 voice
channels or 1544 mbps. A bundle of fiber can do better, of course.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 17:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Tue Jun 11 16:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
References: <B92B9A8A.5E6E4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c211a2$8e79b430$1c577b83@Gideon>

<quote>

> It would seem therefore, that cargoes will be worthwhile to ship via
> starship only past a certain profit point.  Things like bulk grain, ore
and
> the like will probably not be shipped unless there is a very high price at
> the far end.
>
> In the case of simple manufactured goods, it probably makes much more
> economic sense to ship machine tool to the world, and manufacture locally.

> Tod L Glenn

</quote>

This is why you as a GM should consciously lower the cost to ship such bulk.
It seems to me that cargo ships (i.e. sea going container ships) will not
even exist on most planets come the 57th century.  Facilities and materials
that we on TL8 Earth we now use to produce such ships would be used in the
future to produce starships.  Using high-tech construction techniques
practiced over THOUSANDS of years building a starship will be cheap and
efficient.  How much is a modern sea-going bulk freighter?  A quick Google
search puts used freighters at half a million $ (U.S.) to 10 Million (U.S.).
To purchase new ships I might see double or triple these numbers.  In light
of this search I will be revising the cost of ships in MTU to 1/100th of
current price... <smile>

Anthony Colosetti




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 17:50:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 16:50:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEJCEAAA.carlino@cox.net> <p04330101b92b50f0a2d8@[198.123.22.158]>
Message-ID: <3D068C8C.7060509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

David P. Summers wrote:
> At 10:45 AM -0400 6/9/02, Terry Carlino wrote:
> 
>>  >
>>
>>> Well, most PCs aren't members of the TAS but the info isn't indicated
>>
>>  >as something that most PC don't know, so that says to me it is
>>
>>> routinely promulgated beyond the TAS.  The character creation
>>> certainly includes things like very low social standing so that say
>>> to me that PC are not all the the elite of society"
>>> -- 
>>
>>
>> Except of course they are all "Travellers" in a society where space 
>> travels
>> is horrendously expensive. That makes them members of an elite group.
>> Perhaps not "the elite of society" but certainly not the average Joe 
>> in the
>> streets.
>>
>> For example, if TNS is only available within the XT line, and only
>> offworlders and starport workers are permitted inside the line, then PC's
>> are members of an elite group with access to off world information.
> 
> 
> IMO, it is like a luxury cruiser.  The passengers are all of a certain 
> level of wealth, but the crew (janitors, etc) can be of almost any 
> class.  And even if the info is only disbursed to some people on the 
> ship, people will talk to each other.  The impression I get is the TNS 
> items become generally known to ship crews and port personnel.  These 
> guys will talk to the locals on most worlds.
> 
>>
>> Try to imagine being part of such a society. Unless you are willing to 
>> leave
>> everyone you know behind, effectively forever you will never leave 
>> your home
>> of birth.
> 
> 
> That seems excessive to me.  In most ports you can move fairly freely 
> between a port and the local world and I would expect the port to have 
> number of local workers and traveller to know people on the world.

The problem with this analysis is that if interstellar travel is so 
hideously expensive and rare, where the f*ck are all these starships 
coming from?

Back in the heyday of the transoceanic liner, there were a number of 
them running. First class passage on them was expensive, far out of the 
reach of most people.

At the same time, on the same ships, steerage passages moved *vast* 
numbers of the poorest people from the old world to the new.

Why does everyone make assumptions about the cost of travel from the 
limited set of rules designed for occasional shippers (the free traders)

<sigh> this is where the canon freaks lose me. There is anecdotal 
evidence in the Traveller canon for huge passenger ships, and trillions 
of dtons of freight haulage, yet personal travel between systems is 
still rare and expensive.

C'mon...we can't have it both ways...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 18:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 11 17:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20611.154700.8C1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020611120700.C23503@freeman.little-possums.net> <20611.154700.8C1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020612095858.A26596@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> *We* Are TL 8 and we'd have trouble supplying that much power in
> such a small package (if we can do it at all)

Not in GURPS terms, we aren't.  Mainly because we don't have said
power cells.  Or laser pistols.  Or ... etc


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 18:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 11 17:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20020611.185214.-266259.3.Knightsky@juno.com>
References: <20020611.185214.-266259.3.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020612100405.B26596@freeman.little-possums.net>

knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> Interesting.  I use 1CrImp = A$3 IMTU, which seems to work fairly
> well.  Out of curiousity, how did you derive the above-listed
> conversion rate?

I used the GURPS:Far Trader per-capita GWP figures applied to TL7,
then compared with real-world GDPs of modern nations.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 18:05:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 17:05:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEMFEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3D069005.8000307@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Terry Carlino wrote:

 > Category one is a very small minority of the total population of the
> Imperium. Category two is certainly a larger, but still very tiny percent of
> the total population. In the everybody else category the only way anyone
> will travel is basically a one way trip to emigrate, and even this number
> will be a small percentage.
> 
> What I'm getting at is that if you aren't rich or in the military or a
> member of one of the space shipping professions you will not be able to
> travel out of your own system unless you're emigrating somewhere on a one
> way trip. These people will never see their relative or friends again. This
> situation is very much like the situation in the days of sail, or even the
> early 20th century.
> 
> They will make new friends, but they will not call their sister, who lives
> in another system, or drop by to visit for the holidays. 

Bollocks. A large proportion of the emigrants to the new World could 
have afforded a steerage passage *back* to the old country...if they had 
*wanted* to. There was a reason they emigrated in the first place.

You can't support the volume of trade nor the numbers of 
passenger-carrying ships canonic to the OTU AND have travel rare and 
expensive, not unless there's a price control system that makes the old 
US airline regulation system look like raw cutthroat competition.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 18:06:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 11 17:06:08 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <F154jYg5OfVoA1MyqRV0001bb84@hotmail.com>
References: <F154jYg5OfVoA1MyqRV0001bb84@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020612100540.C26596@freeman.little-possums.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>      Perhaps they're burning a large stack of Poetic Licenses?

That's as good an explanation as any :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 18:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Tue Jun 11 17:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1023816587.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEMHEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> Sorry.  I'll rephrase.  What is the maximum imported tech level that
could
>> be sustained without resupply for 100 years?  Assuming  the locals made a
>> good effort to maintain it.
>
>Hm...good question.  It depends on your supply of spares, there's lots of
>electronic components that are basically not maintainable (but have pretty
good
>normal lifespans), and higher TLs probably have other components with
similar
>limitations.  Based on the rules for starship maintenance, high-tech
equipment
>has pretty low maintenance requirements, so I suspect any TL can be
maintained
>if you're willing to have spares comparable in mass and cost to the total
>initial infrastructure.

I suspect the real question is: What is required to make a TL
self-sustaining? Is there a limiting population size for each TL? Does this
go up or down as TL increases? How many automated fabrication facilities are
needed to repair automated fabrication facilities?

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 18:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 17:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20020611132821.D23503@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20611.154844.4F5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> This is not true. To know TL F physics you probably have to go
>> through TL A-E physics first.
>
> That must be why we teach crystal spheres and epicycles today.  I
> always wondered about that.  That's why we teach that zero is not a
> number, and multiplication with Roman numerals before high-tech maths
> such as writing the number "10".

Not the same thing. Later physics builds on earlier physics, and is
generally applicable under circumstances farther from everyday experience.

Roman numerals aren't "math". They are more like an alhabet or
language. Arabic numerals work better. But they don't affect the basic
*mathematics*. 

Apples and oranges.

> I only learned about most TL5- science after having a good grasp of
> TL7 stuff.  I wasn't interested in history.  Of course, when I started
> research I started to very quickly become interested in how people
> came up with new ideas in the past :)
>
> One factor you're ignoring is that we teach *everyone* in our society
> science that is in most ways more accurate than *anyone* in TL5- knew.

Nope.

More detailed, yes. More "accurate" no. You have to go back before the
scientific method was applied to a given field to find "less accurate".

Newtonian physics is TL *3*. And it still works perfectly well as long
as you avoid relativistic velocities, scales where quantum effects are
important and insanely huge gravity fields. 

The corrections for any of the above are microscopic under "normal"
circumstances.

Maxwells equations are TL4. And stll work outside the quantum domain.

Once the scientific method is discovered, any "new" science merely make
the old science a "special case" of the new science (ie netwonian
physics are a special case where the velocties are very much lower than
c and gravity isn't severely warping space.)

> The proportion of people who are familiar with any of the sciences is
> also greater, and they reached such a level of understanding *much*
> earlier on average.  Mainly because we teach knowing where all the
> dead-ends are.

I think you are confusing science and engineering. 

> By TTL F, there is also a much greater knowledge of brain function and
> psychology.  They may not even need crude verbal and pictorial analogy
> to enable learning, and certainly wouldn't need a human teacher who
> can handle only a few tens of students at most.  I expect direct brain
> interfaces and near-sentient AIs to be the norm.  Human teachers (more
> like supervisors) can handle the remaining rough spots, if any.

Actually, there are numerous examples of teachers handling *hundreds*
of students and producing good results. Just none in recent times. So
there may be a cultural factor of some sort at work. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 18:15:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 17:15:41 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <20611.162449.8p8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> <snip>
>> It doesn't bypass Shannon's theorem
>> limiting the amount of information that can be carried
>> in the finite spectrum that is transmissible.
>
> Shannon's theorem, though, _is_ bypassd by modern digital
> communications, as the theorem you're talking about here only
> covers raw, uncompressed, data.

Nope. Compressing data eliminates *redundancy*. It throws out
"unneeded" info. At the cost of making it harder to recover from a
transmission error.

Flip a few bits in a text file and you can still read it, and likely
even correct the errors from context. Flip the same number of bits a
zip file containing the same text file and you will at the very least
lose large chunks of text, if not the whole file.

There's no free lunch here.

> A 56K modem pumps around 56K of information down an audio line
> that has a theoretical Shannon limit of 2.4K data bits

No. The channel has a limit of 2400 *baud*. That's not the same as 2400
bps!

The channel can only handle 2400 changes of signal state per second
(2400 baud). But there can be *multiple* signal states. Not just two.

So each state transition carries *multiple* bits. With 4 states, you
can carry two bits per transition, for example. The old 1200 bps modems
ran at 600 baud with 4 possible signal states. So each transition
conveyed two bits of data (00, 01, 10 or 11).

But you are still subject to Shannon's law. The bandwidth is limited to
2400 baud. Increasing the number of signal states increases the bit
rate at the expense of being less immune to noise (the finer the state
transistions, the easier it is to confuse one with another).

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 18:16:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 17:16:22 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <20611.163603.9P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn wrote :
>> on 6/10/02 6:54 PM, Terry Carlino at carlino@cox.net wrote:
>>
>> > This sounds very similar to me of the way in which
>> > standard digital T1 and T3 lines already handle
>> > communication. Most people don't realize that their
>> > voice communication is already compressed and sent
>> > in microsecond burst along the communication trunks
>> > to be expanded at the other end, rather than
>> > sent at audio frequencies like old fashion radio.
>>
>> Only in digital systems.  There are still a few
>> analogue systems out there.
>
> Not on the backbone,  which is what the original poster was
> talking about.
>
> There are no analogue T1s.

True. The analog lines with the same capacity are called something
else. :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 18:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 17:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEMHEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023841172.5089.ajackson@ping>

Terry Carlino writes:
\> I suspect the real question is: What is required to make a TL
> self-sustaining? Is there a limiting population size for each TL? Does this
> go up or down as TL increases? How many automated fabrication facilities
> are needed to repair automated fabrication facilities?

The amount of production machinery probably increases continually and fairly
raplid with TL.  The number of people theoretically required probably falls due
to possibilities of automation, but the size of culture that's likely to have
all the required production machines probably rises.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 18:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 17:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3D069005.8000307@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023841432.1183.ajackson@ping>

Bruce Johnson writes:
> 
> You can't support the volume of trade nor the numbers of 
> passenger-carrying ships canonic to the OTU AND have travel rare and 
> expensive, not unless there's a price control system that makes the old 
> US airline regulation system look like raw cutthroat competition.

There seems to be some sort of regulation on legal cabin sizes, since the
maximum occupancy of cabins is 2 people in a 4 dton cabin, which is rather low.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 18:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Jun 11 17:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <20611.142137.0U4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <002101c210ee$0709f870$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <3D073DD1.22311.BAD779@localhost>

On 11 Jun 2002 at 14:21, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> There are now *4 sizees of metric pop bottles that I've seen (3 liter,
> 2 liter, 1 liter, and I think I've seen 1/2 liter) and other stuff is
> popping up. 

It'll get worse - we currently have  500mL, 600mL, 1L, 1.5L, 2L and 
2.25L as 'standard', with assorted others popping up from time to time.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 18:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Jun 11 17:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
Message-ID: <200206120035.IGJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
<SNIP>
>e.g. Auckland to San Francisco at
>is about US$4000 per 40-foot container, including packing, 
>customs, CABAF and terminal fees.  Such a container has a 
>volume of about 6 dtons.
<snip

That's another interesting item.  Is there a "standard" 
shipping container in Traveller?  Is the "modular" cutter 
part of this?

I would bet that if cargo was in standard containers, that 
could be dropped from a dispersed structure on arrival, the 
ship with the jump drives could continue to refuel and reload 
with the next batch of cargo while orbital interface vehicles 
brought the containers to the surface.  Even ships that made 
their own approach to the surface would be loaded and 
unloaded more quickly.  Even ground handling of cargo would 
be easier (maglev?).
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Jun 11 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <F8CBB927101AA247AD03DC32C17FA76C1940AD@scooter.lpc.local>
Message-ID: <20020612004350.AC4CF27BDE@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/12/02 at 11:15 AM,  "Duncan Jones" <duncan.jones@lpc.co.nz>
said:

>Hi there,
>I don't know if this has already been answered, but a 20 ft container
>measures 20' length, 8' wide and height can be either 8' (default
>height), 8'6" or 9'6" (referred to as 'hicube'). The other standard
>container size is 40'length with the other dimensions the same as for
>the 20'. Cheers,

Thanks Duncan.

So, a 20' container is 1280 or 1360 or 1520 square feet, that works
out to  roughly 2.5, 2.7, or 3.0 dTons. The 40' container would be
double that, 5 to 6 dTons.

In CT a dTon is leased for freight at 1 kCr, so a 20' container would
go for between 2.5 and 3 kCr. 

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 18:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Jun 11 17:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <01fb01c2119c$aaf37ed0$b50fa118@upstairs>
Message-ID: <001401c211aa$b4b15bf0$0b01a8c0@duck>

On Behalf Of Sparky
> This is what confused me. I'm reading a book called "Hyperspace' by Michio
> Kaku (1994) and it describes some of the propertes of some other
> dimensions...which, of course, preclude FTL travel in this manner.

Again, you are looking too close.  First most of these descriptions
(e.g. Star Trek, Star Wars, Traveller, B5) were made before that book.
Besides which, I am sure there is a dimension *somewhere* that will
work like we need it to.  :-)

> One last question to the list-at-large....Why does Jump last one week? Is
> there some principle that was applied and produced that result or was it
> arbitrary on Marc Miller's part?

If I remember correctly, it was chosen by Marc so that travel through
the stars would be fairly slow.  That way it has more of an "age of sail"
feel to the setting than an "age of jet" feel.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 18:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Tue Jun 11 17:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Imperium IMTU (long)
References: <B92BA05B.5E6F1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c211aa$cba054b0$1c577b83@Gideon>

<quote>

> But this assumes that some product designed on one planet will work
> everywhere.  That's quite an assumption.  A BMW M5 may be great on the
> autobahn, but not much use in Quito, Equidor where you're lucky to find a
> decent road 5 miles outside the city proper.  We are talking about worlds
> here, not countries.
>
> And in a sense, standards often serve to stifle innovation.  The cell
phone
> discussion earlier is a good example.  Europe adopted the GSM standard
early
> on, and this had some benefit.  However, as more cellular communication
> devices are added to the system, that system is showing it's weakness.
The
> technology is rapidly approaching its limits.
>
> Does anyone really believe that advanced computer operating systems would
> have been created without the pressure of competing designs.  Would
> Microsoft have bothered with a GUI if Apple hadn't raised the bar?

</quote>

Two assumptions...  First the Imperium is OLD, starfaring for over a
thousand years and second technology is relatively stagnant within this
Imperium.  Completion will exist but not in the matter of production of new
technology but in marketing of that material.  MegaCorps will exist for the
purpose of having a broad base of products due to this.  Think of the whole
Coke vs. Pepsi situation.  Just because standardization exists does not mean
only one type of anything is produced.  Agreed a M5 would not be the best
bet on a safari but that doesn't mean there are hundreds or designs per
planet.  Maybe a few score over the entire Imperium, not counting minor
local cosmetic changes.

I'm going to bring up a point here I feel very strongly about.  To have an
empire you must have a cultural identity.  The media and Megacorps (and the
products they produce) will provide this identity with the help of the
Nobility.  If every planet I travel to within the Imperium is so alien that
I need to relearn everything about society then there is no empire.  I
picture 19th Century British Empire mixed with the late 20th Century
American media saturation, not a collection of cooperating governments akin
to the modern UN.  YMMV

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 18:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Tue Jun 11 17:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3D068C8C.7060509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEMJEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>The problem with this analysis is that if interstellar travel is so
>hideously expensive and rare, where the f*ck are all these starships
>coming from?
>
>Back in the heyday of the transoceanic liner, there were a number of
>them running. First class passage on them was expensive, far out of the
>reach of most people.
>
>At the same time, on the same ships, steerage passages moved *vast*
>numbers of the poorest people from the old world to the new.
>
And almost all of these passengers were on one-way trips, fleeing Europe for
a chance in the new world. They often spent their life savings, literally,
for the trip. I don't know, but suspect, steerage was pretty empty on the
way back to Europe.

>Why does everyone make assumptions about the cost of travel from the
>limited set of rules designed for occasional shippers (the free traders)
>
><sigh> this is where the canon freaks lose me. There is anecdotal
>evidence in the Traveller canon for huge passenger ships, and trillions
>of dtons of freight haulage, yet personal travel between systems is
>still rare and expensive.
>
>C'mon...we can't have it both ways...
>
I would love to see someone do a real cost analysis of what it would take to
run a liner at profit. As I understand it most liners of the 20th century
(real ocean liners, not cruise ships) never operated at a profit, but were
heavily subsidized by their respected governments.

Has anyone ever done the numbers up for a liner (or rather a fleet of liners
including factor and ground support costs?)

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Tue Jun 11 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
References: <B92BA0E0.5E6F5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002101c211ab$c744f460$1c577b83@Gideon>

<qoute>

> Ah.  I was working from CT numbers.  Cr6 per ton makes starship freight
very
> cheap.  Cheaper even than bulk sea freightage.  Does this figure include
the
> cost to boost from dirtside and back down again?

</quote>

With gravitics there is no real additional cost in getting cargo to orbit.
Just hydrogen and time...

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 18:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Jun 11 17:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEMFEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEMFEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <p04330105b92c4bdfd65e@[143.232.119.186]>

But the question is, is there no exchange of info between these 
groups?  Historically, the classes communicate, wether it was reading 
old newspapers after the owners discard them, overhearing 
conversations, people expounding their views to the captive audience 
there servant represent, etc.

At 7:32 PM -0400 6/11/02, Terry Carlino wrote:
>I was speaking in a more general sense. Imperial society can be divided into
>three broad categories. The Rich and Powerful who can afford the tremendous
>expense of interstellar travel on a regular basis. People associated with
>the shipping trade (include in this category all those who work on ships or
>travel on Imperial and Megacorp business.) Everybody else.
>
>Category one is a very small minority of the total population of the
>Imperium. Category two is certainly a larger, but still very tiny percent of
>the total population. In the everybody else category the only way anyone
>will travel is basically a one way trip to emigrate, and even this number
>will be a small percentage.
>
>What I'm getting at is that if you aren't rich or in the military or a
>member of one of the space shipping professions you will not be able to
>travel out of your own system unless you're emigrating somewhere on a one
>way trip. These people will never see their relative or friends again. This
>situation is very much like the situation in the days of sail, or even the
>early 20th century.
>
>They will make new friends, but they will not call their sister, who lives
>in another system, or drop by to visit for the holidays. How much interest
>they have in news from other systems is debatable. Someone in the Marches
>might want to know what's happening on Capital, because it's Capital. How
>much will they care what's happening on the Rim?
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 19:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Jun 11 18:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3D068C8C.7060509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEJCEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
 <p04330101b92b50f0a2d8@[198.123.22.158]>
 <3D068C8C.7060509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <p04330106b92c4c86fdb9@[143.232.119.186]>

At 4:49 PM -0700 6/11/02, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>The problem with this analysis is that if interstellar travel is so 
>hideously expensive and rare, where the f*ck are all these starships 
>coming from?

Well, I'm just going with a background that represents significant 
traffic.  Nor am I sure it matter.  Those who travel will be in 
contact with those who don't.  If there aren't many of them, then it 
will take a little longer for info to pass.

>
>Back in the heyday of the transoceanic liner, there were a number of 
>them running. First class passage on them was expensive, far out of 
>the reach of most people.
>
>At the same time, on the same ships, steerage passages moved *vast* 
>numbers of the poorest people from the old world to the new.

Well, it has been suggested that those who traveled by steerage would 
travel by low berth in the Traveller universe.  The price is a lot 
lower.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 19:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Jun 11 18:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3D069005.8000307@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020612010350.50E9527C0E@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/11/02 at 05:04 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>Bollocks. A large proportion of the emigrants to the new World could 
>have afforded a steerage passage *back* to the old country...if they
>had  *wanted* to. There was a reason they emigrated in the first
>place.

>You can't support the volume of trade nor the numbers of 
>passenger-carrying ships canonic to the OTU AND have travel rare and 
>expensive, not unless there's a price control system that makes the
>old  US airline regulation system look like raw cutthroat
>competition.

Bruce, I agree with you, but if passenger fares are cheap, and freight
rates are cheap, then both ship prices and
operating expenses better be really cheap, or nobody's going to make
any money.  So, if you argue for inexpensive
passenger and freight service, you also have to argue for cheap
starships, lower salaries, and lower operating expenses.

OTOH, there just *might* be a ruthless price control system in the
Imperium.  Freight rates are pegged low...trade is good, passenger
rates are pegged very high...free movement by the masses is bad.  Does
that fit anybody's conception of a static empire ruled by an
hereditary oligarchy?

Eris,
 who needs to stop messing with the TML and go write posts
 in his PBEM's <g>

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 19:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Jun 11 18:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: high tech vs. low tech
In-Reply-To: <3D0542B9.80905@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206110148130.31289-100000@ask.diku.dk>
 <3D0542B9.80905@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <p04330107b92c4e6c7013@[143.232.119.186]>

At 5:22 PM -0700 6/10/02, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>The imperium is not really in the business of giving things away, is it?
>>Of course, I can easily imagine situations where the Imperium might loan
>>or give a world money to buy a sattelite network, but in general I think
>>an Imperial world gets only what it can afford to buy.
>
>If it bootstraps a world of happy consumers to higher disposable 
>incomes? Oh, yeah! I'm sure that many Megacorps will *happily* give 
>a world the handle of comsats in order to sell the razor blades of 
>phone service...that brings in monthly, ongoing income, for not much 
>in maintenance costs...;-) In traveller terms comm satellites are 
>*cheap*.
>
>Even places too poor to buy comsats can probably pony up enough for 
>monthly phone service, and merchants always like to have commo handy 
>when trading.

One doesn't see modern corporations doing such things in Africa.  The 
only people trying to bootstrap the region are Western governments 
(through foreign aid) and NGOs(international charities).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 19:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 18:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Atmospheric Pressures and Charcters?
In-Reply-To: <20020610234248.704a50fd.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20611.165143.3x3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>
>> You can seal stuff against an atmosphere or so rather easily.
>> Especially if it's small. Otherwise "vacuum" packed canisters of various
>> things wouldn't be possibly. 
>
> Well, they aren't really possible in the long term...

How long do you care about? "Vacuum" sealed canisters maintain a psi or
so of difference for years.

>> Which is why you use a slight *overpressure*. Same idea with clean
>> rooms. They are kept at slightly *above* the outside air pressure so
>> that leaks are all going *out*. 
>
> Yes, but that really doesn't work when the outside pressure is... say 5-10 
> atmospheres...  :-)

Sure it does. In fact it's the only practical option if the atmosphere
outside is something you *don't* want getting inside.

5-10 atm internal pressure is not that big a problem. Saturation divers
deal with that sort of thing for days at a time. And it should be
doable indefinitely.

Then again, consider that you aren't going to *find* 5-10 atm of
surface pressure on very many worlds in Traveller. 

>> This will be a problem if the surrounding atmosphere reacts badly with
>> oxygen, nitrogen, CO2, or water. <eg>
>
> MOAHAHA! Hadn't thought of that. Oxygen leaking out into a hydrogen-based 
> atmosphere would be very funny when a metal glove against another strikes a 
> tiny spark...

Actually, it depends on the leak rate. At less than 5% oxygen it won't
burn/explode. The exact value depends on the gas in question. Look up
"flammability range" for various gases. there's an upper *and* lower
limit for danger when mixed with oxygen.

That's why some *really* high pressure diving setups have used a mix of
oxygen and *hydrogen*. The oxygen is 1% or less so there's no hazard.

> Or if the ground has high quantities of periodic system group I metals... a 
> tiny amount of water could cause a nice explosion in that case as well...

Nope. You won't find those metals lying around in a free state in
nature *because* they react with so many things. they'll all be tied up
in silicate minerals.

But if you've got a world with elemental abundances weird enough to
allow plant life that creates a chlorine atmosphere then the water will
react with the chlorine to produce a *really* corrosive compound known
as "chlorine water". This stuff will cheerfully disolve *gold*.

If the local lifeforms (or industries!) have created an atmosphere rich
in nitrogen oxides (see Hal Clemt's "the Nitrogen Fix" for an example
of such an ecosystem). then leaking water will create nitrous and
nitric acids. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 19:18:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 18:18:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Atmospheric Pressures and Charcters?
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b92b5691f66b@[198.123.22.158]>
Message-ID: <20611.172025.3Y2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 1:19 PM -0800 6/9/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>  > What type of devices can they wear to nullifiy the effects?
>>
>>If it *is* high enough pressure for the effects I mention above, they'd
>>need a very sophisticated "filter" that would reduce the partial
>>pressure of the problem gas to something safe *and* replace it with
>>something that wasn't a problem.
>
> This is actually easy.  You take a filter mask and feed in 50% 
> atmosphere and 50% inert gas.

If the pressure is high enough for nitrogen narcosis or oxygen
toxicity, you are *very* limited as to the "inert" gases you can use.

As an example, xenon makes a wonderful anaesthetic at a few psi partial
pressure. 

And unless you use some more fancy filtering, you'll *lose* that "inert
gas" every time you exhale.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 19:19:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 18:19:31 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
In-Reply-To: <F36vz6udwWNBoOeBkOb0001b8da@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20611.173331.0R5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>      Now we're getting into MTU/YTU territory.  Hold on, it's going to be a 
> bumpy ride...
>      Remember how I said the jump masking and jump limit boundary phenomena 
> imply a one-to-one mapping connection between jump space and normal space?  
> And remember that Mr. Miller's articles have flatly stated that this mapping 
> does exist?  Okay, keeping those two statements in mind, you can imagine 
> every point in jump space has a corresponding point in normal space.  Got 
> it?
>      Now imagine placing a cube of steel in the airlock of a vessel in jump 
> space.  We then cycle the airlock and blow the cube out of the vessel.  The 
> cube will then pass through the vessel's jump field.  Does that mean that 
> the cube will simply appear at some point in normal space?
>      My answer is no, of course YMMV.
>      If items can be "thrown out" of a jump field only to reappear in normal 
> space and if there is a one-to-one mapping between normal and jump space, 
> then we have a very nifty weapon indeed.  A weapon that cannot be defended 
> against.
>      Fill a ship with smart bombs, plot a jump course that passes by your 
> target, and, at the proper time, shovel all the bombs out of your cargo bay. 
>   The bombs would then appear out of no where and slag your target without 
> warning.
>      Because that type of an attack as never been described in Traveller, 
> I'd believe that it cannnot work.  Thus, items passing through a jump field 
> don't simply "drop out" of jump space.
>      Try looking at jump fields differently.  A jump field doesn't KEEP 
> objects IN jump space, instead a jump field PROTECTS objects FROM jump 
> space.  If an object passes through a jump field, or if a jump field 
> collapses, the object is no longer protected from jump space and the weird 
> physics of that dimension.  The object is then destroyed or transformed or 
> converted into something that can exist within that dimension.  There is 
> nothing left that can exist in or is from the dimension of normal space.  
> There is nothing left to "fall out" of jump space.

Or, as many folks seem to think, it drops out of jump space one atom
(or even nucleon) at a time.

One possible way to test this would be to do a "null jump" (ie a jump
to where you already are) and dump stuff out of the jump bubble and see
if anything can be detected in the vicinty of the ship's entry/exit point.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 19:20:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 18:20:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1023752545.2767.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20611.173650.9f7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen writes:
>> 
>> That reminds me of something I've been trying to figure out. For each tech
>> level, what is the minimum size of the population needed to maintain it?
>
> Without assistance?  Up to TL 8, figure a minimum pop code of (TL/2 + 3). 
> Beyond this it's pure guesswork, but making plausible estimates of ancient
> Darrian and Sabmiqys, a pop code of 10-11 should be enough for TL 16-17, so
> simply continuing the curve above isn't too bad.
>> 
>> Obviously anything above historical tech levels will be mere guesswork,
>> but I'd still like to know what people think. For instance, is a small
>> family with a TTL 10 Mobile Fabrication Facility a TL 10 society?
>
> Maybe, but it's not a self-sustaining TL 10 society; eventually that 
> fabricator
> will run out of parts and/or specialized materials and will not be fixable
> based on available materials.

Unless it can produce parts for itself. And parts for gear to make the
special materials.

There are a lot of things you can actually do fairly well on a *small*
scale that aren't practical for large scale production. Sometimes this
will let you maintain a small facility or population in ways you can't
maintain a larger one. 

Also, you can support a small community's needs by processing ore
deposits that aren't worth working commercially. A vein that only will
produce a few tons of metal aren't worth the trouble unless it's
something like gold, normally. 

But if that "few tons" is enough to supply you for the next century,
and it's close by, then things are a bit different.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 19:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 18:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <E17HZEV-00029Q-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20611.174537.7u9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> OTOH, at TL 12+ robots become increasingly common.  I could 
> easily imagine a perfectly self-sustaining world with a population of 
> maybe between 100,000+ (or at most 1,000,000+) that maintained 
> TL 15 w/o aid simply by virtue to the fact that it was extensively 
> automated.  Robot mining craft, robot factories, repair bots to fix 
> broken robots and a few thousand highly trained humans to monitor 
> and control the system and to troubleshoot any problems the 
> robots can't fix on their own.  OTOH, I can't see any way for 
> population 0-2 worlds to be even remotely self-sufficient at anything 
> above TL 1. 

I'd say that Pop 2 will allow a limited, but sustainable TL 2 or even
3. 

> I'd say off the cuff that any world with a population of 0-3 is not self-
> sufficient, and that any TL 12+ world with a population of 5+ is 
> likely to be self-sufficient.  I'm guessing you could maintain a TL 5-
> 11 worlds with a population of 10,000,000+, but with fewer that that 
> (and definitely with fewer than a million people, I can't see any way 
> to support such a world w/o automation of a higher TL than it 
> possesses.

You can most definitely support TLs of 4 and below with a *lot* less
than 10 million. Especially given that they'll have *much* more
productive agriculture that Earth did at the equivalent TLs. That
productivity frees up a *lot* of folks from food production.

Consider what the average *non-farmer* population of countries at TLs
of 5 and below were. and how many farmers will be required to support
them with better (but low tech) farming methods and better storage
techniques. 

You can probably cut the the number of farmers by a factor of 10 to 100
from the historical ones. Which, givemn that until the late 1800s,
farmers were something like 90% of the population in places like the US
and UK means a *major* reduction in the required population. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 19:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Jun 11 18:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <022301c211a0$29faff70$b50fa118@upstairs>
References: <F64QIWGhCtEJ6XNt3Bq0001caf2@hotmail.com> <022301c211a0$29faff70$b50fa118@upstairs>
Message-ID: <3d069c10.55113260@post.demon.co.uk>

"Sparky" <sparky13@nycap.rr.com> writes:

>Except for that one last question (Why a week?) that I just posted in a
>reply to another poster, that answers all my questions just fine.  And =
that
>was very entertaining to boot.

As far as I know, the one week duration of a jump was purely arbitrary
from a scientific pont of view.  It was, however, absolutely crucial
for the game setting.

Imagine a planet is suddenly threatened by an unexpected danger.  The
nearest Government base is 20 parsecs away.  If jump were
instantaneous, then a message could be sent in the morning and help
would arrive by lunchtime.  In Traveller, even the fastest Jump-Six
ship will take 4 weeks to get to the base, and the help will take
another 4 weeks to return.  Rather than wait two months for
assistance, the planetary rulers will be forced to take desperate
measures, like asking a bunch of player characters who happen to be in
town to help out...

>Although time dilation must still factor in there somewhat if there is a
>difference in clocks in earth orbit and the earth's surface. I'll just
>assume that that is figured into the navigation calculations.

I've always wondered whether starships' clocks would be set to Terran
Standard Time (and would that be GMT or some other time zone), Vland
Time, or the time of their home planet?

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 19:24:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Jun 11 18:24:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <01fb01c2119c$aaf37ed0$b50fa118@upstairs>
Message-ID: <20020612012326.E213827B1C@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/11/02 at 07:06 PM,  "Sparky" <sparky13@nycap.rr.com> said:

>One last question to the list-at-large....Why does Jump last one
>week? Is there some principle that was applied and produced that
>result or was it arbitrary on Marc Miller's part?

IMO, it's a meta-game reason, but and I don't really expect MM or LKW
to verify my opinion.  <g>

Back in the old days, maybe today too, most groups got together to
play once a week, say Friday nights. Generally nothing happens in
jumpspace, so it would be boring to play that out, so we'll let that
take place between our weekly gaming sessions. The next Friday night
we start the session with the Referee telling everyone what happened
during the previous week in jump, and arriving in a system. Our PC's
deal with ship encounters, land, do business, have an adventure, and
if they survive stagger back to the ship just as we players are
yawning and getting ready to go. We end the session with the PC's
jumping for their next destination and telling the Referee what they
want their PC's to do during the next week in Jumpspace...usually
healing some wound, or practicing some skill. Then we adjourn, go home
and dream about being our Traveller characters. Once every few weeks,
months or years (depending on the version) we badger the Referee,
saying "Hey, shouldn't my PC have developed another skill or two by
*now*?", and if she agrees we spend a few minutes adjusting our
character sheets, and then we continue with the game.

And IMO, that's why jump takes a week, whether it's 1 parsec or 6
parsecs. 


Eris
ps. hint, if the Referee says "We're playing out this jump..." you
should be thinking, "Danger! Danger! Red Alert!" -- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 19:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Tue Jun 11 18:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEEPHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz> <003101c21163$3682c710$1c577b83@Gideon> <3d073e60.31126392@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <004f01c211b0$acec9fa0$1c577b83@Gideon>

<quote>

A hectare is 100 ares, but I've never heard anyone measure anything in
ares. ;-)

In a way, "A4" is also a named measurement of area (297mm by 210mm)...
This one is used in normal conversation (as in "It's about the size of
two sheets of A4").

Stephen

</quote>

My thanks for the enlightenment Stephen <smile>.  I think it just adds to my
statement that a cord is an Imperial unit just so uncommon in use that it
doesn't make a typical standards list.

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 19:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Jun 11 18:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Atmospheric Pressures and Charcters?
In-Reply-To: <20611.172025.3Y2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20611.172025.3Y2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330109b92c544cd2ea@[143.232.119.186]>

At 5:20 PM -0800 6/11/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>  At 1:19 PM -0800 6/9/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>   > What type of devices can they wear to nullifiy the effects?
>>>
>>>If it *is* high enough pressure for the effects I mention above, they'd
>>>need a very sophisticated "filter" that would reduce the partial
>>>pressure of the problem gas to something safe *and* replace it with
>>>something that wasn't a problem.
>>
>>  This is actually easy.  You take a filter mask and feed in 50%
>>  atmosphere and 50% inert gas.
>
>If the pressure is high enough for nitrogen narcosis or oxygen
>toxicity, you are *very* limited as to the "inert" gases you can use.
>
>As an example, xenon makes a wonderful anaesthetic at a few psi partial
>pressure.

For the pressures the poster asks about, this isn't a problem.  For 
higher pressumres, on uses helium.  You can get well beyond these 
pressures.

>
>And unless you use some more fancy filtering, you'll *lose* that "inert
>gas" every time you exhale.

Yeah, so you would need to buy "tanks" or have a closed system pass 
the same air around, exchange CO2 and O2 through a selective membrane.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 19:32:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Tue Jun 11 18:32:38 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20611.154844.4F5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEMLEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>> This is not true. To know TL F physics you probably have to go
>>> through TL A-E physics first.
>>
>> That must be why we teach crystal spheres and epicycles today.  I
>> always wondered about that.  That's why we teach that zero is not a
>> number, and multiplication with Roman numerals before high-tech maths
>> such as writing the number "10".
>
>Not the same thing. Later physics builds on earlier physics, and is
>generally applicable under circumstances farther from everyday experience.
>
>Roman numerals aren't "math". They are more like an alhabet or
>language. Arabic numerals work better. But they don't affect the basic
>*mathematics*.
>
The Romans who used those numerals as their counting system might disagree
with you, but I get your point.

>Apples and oranges.
>
>> I only learned about most TL5- science after having a good grasp of
>> TL7 stuff.  I wasn't interested in history.  Of course, when I started
>> research I started to very quickly become interested in how people
>> came up with new ideas in the past :)
>>
>> One factor you're ignoring is that we teach *everyone* in our society
>> science that is in most ways more accurate than *anyone* in TL5- knew.
>
>Nope.
>
>More detailed, yes. More "accurate" no. You have to go back before the
>scientific method was applied to a given field to find "less accurate".
>
>Newtonian physics is TL *3*. And it still works perfectly well as long
>as you avoid relativistic velocities, scales where quantum effects are
>important and insanely huge gravity fields.
>
>The corrections for any of the above are microscopic under "normal"
>circumstances.
>
But at TL3 only a handful of people knew about Newtonian Physics.

>Maxwells equations are TL4. And stll work outside the quantum domain.
>
Same thing. When Maxwell proposed his equations vector calculus was still
unexplored and the four equations required pages and pages of regular
calculus to illustrate. The number of people equipped with the proper
training to understand those concepts was fairly small.

>Once the scientific method is discovered, any "new" science merely make
>the old science a "special case" of the new science (ie netwonian
>physics are a special case where the velocties are very much lower than
>c and gravity isn't severely warping space.)
>
>> The proportion of people who are familiar with any of the sciences is
>> also greater, and they reached such a level of understanding *much*
>> earlier on average.  Mainly because we teach knowing where all the
>> dead-ends are.
>
>I think you are confusing science and engineering.
>
On the last point, at TL4 Newtonian physics was taught to people through
private letters, and expensive privately published papers with very limited
distribution. It is now taught in elementary school. In 1928 there was
basically no one without a PhD who understood even the most basic concepts
of relativity. We teach that to High School Students in some places today.
Undergraduates learn Electrodynamics (including the parts modified for
relativity.) Masters students learn superstring theory.

Also as technology advances some information, although still factual,
becomes less important to master. In school in my day I spent an awful
amount of time learning to use log tables and in doing unit conversion
problems. Both concepts are still taught, but students today don't spend a
lot of time on either subject.

Why?

I needed to really know how to use log tables because if I wanted to
multiply two really big numbers together I needed to know about logarithms.
I needed to know about them if I want to use my slide rule. I still need to
know logs exist. I don't need to know how to use log tables. I use a
computer or calculator to multiply really big numbers. Students can spend
that time learning something else. The same with unit conversion. Important
concept, but not a lot of practice needed. That can be done by computers.

The same in electronics. Most courses only give a quick coverage of general
tube theory. You might go into detail on the kind of high power tubes still
in use, but almost nobody spends a lot of time learning about tube
technology that's been replaced by solid state devices.

When talking TL you are talking both science and engineering. Why would
anyone make a flintlock when they could make a percussion cap. Heck if they
can make power cells and ultra high temperature superconductors why not make
a gauss gun?

Since we can't make either at TL7-8 we really can't say the level of
engineering expertise required to make a gauss gun. A gauss gun might be a
device that can be made at TL8 without difficulty, if you know how.




>> By TTL F, there is also a much greater knowledge of brain function and
>> psychology.  They may not even need crude verbal and pictorial analogy
>> to enable learning, and certainly wouldn't need a human teacher who
>> can handle only a few tens of students at most.  I expect direct brain
>> interfaces and near-sentient AIs to be the norm.  Human teachers (more
>> like supervisors) can handle the remaining rough spots, if any.
>
>Actually, there are numerous examples of teachers handling *hundreds*
>of students and producing good results. Just none in recent times. So
>there may be a cultural factor of some sort at work.
>
We won't talk about the expectations of lazy American students as it relates
to being spoon fed.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 19:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 11 18:41:02 2002
Subject: cell phones (was Re: [TML] VRF Shotgun?)
Message-ID: <111.138d39a3.2a380090@aol.com>

> How about rigging a urinal with a few thousand volts!


I once saw a dog relieve itself on an electrified fence. I used to laugh at 
the memory, until the day I discovered that it is possible to discharge 
static electricity through a stream of urine.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 19:42:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 18:42:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <F118ZrPxUZSGs4uDGcH0001b65a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20611.175957.8o9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>      "Obviously anything above historical tech levels will be mere 
> guesswork, but I'd still like to know what people think. For instance, is a 
> small family with a TTL 10 Mobile Fabrication Facility a TL 10 society?"
>
>
> Sir,
>
>      Guesswork indeed!
>      My knee jerk answer to your question would be no.  Traveller doesn't 
> have "Santa Claus" machines; devices you can shovel any old substance into 
> and get whatever you want out of the other end.

On the other hand, if you change that to "any substance containing
enough of the required elements" and allow for the required power
consumption, such a device isn't *impossible*.

It just doesn't fit the OTU.

BTW, such devices *will* have some interesting problems with disposable
of the "unneeded" elements. I can see *large* stacks of quartz and
sapphire blocks as convenient ways to dispose of the excess aluminum,
silicon, and oxygen.

Then there's the problem of tnhe sort of design details that have to be
fed into a "faber" to get a finished product.

But a "machine shop" and "simple" metal/plastics/etc production
facility for *small* scale production of a lot of things (including
most of the parts required to keep the setup going) *is* possible, even
in the OTU.

It'll be more expensive than imports, at least in the *short* term. In
the longer term, it will pay for itself. 

I expect that research stations will have some of the required
equipment, simply because the scientists won't want to wait a month or
more to get a new gizmo designed and delivered.

Naval and Scout bases will have a lot of manufacturing capability for
similar reasons.

>      Even a TTL 10 Mobile Fabrication Facility (MFF) would require 
> specialized raw materials and, eventually, specialized repair parts.  Von 
> Neumann machines basically build more Von Neumann machines, and not bowling 
> balls, vaccines, air/rafts, FGMPs, cell phones, or bobbie pins.

But the tech that can build a von Nuemann machine can also build ones
that can replicate themselves *and build machines to make other things
as well.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 19:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 11 18:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
Message-ID: <6.2a430999.2a380452@aol.com>

>sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>> Hmm, I'm now reminded of a fairly wacky James White novel called
>> _The Watch Below_.
>[...]
>> They built pedal-powered generators to charge the batteries to run
>> the lights, used the light to grow plants, recycled water through
>> some means I've forgotten and survived fairly well
>
>Yes, you're right -- it's wacky.  Plants need more light energy than
>they supply to people who eat them.  People aren't 100% efficient at
>using that energy to pedal bikes, either.  So where does the extra
>energy come from?

Giant mutant electric eels? 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 20:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Tue Jun 11 19:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92B72C0.5E684%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEMMEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>The problem is one of scale.  The typical trader is only 200-500 tons.  In
>terms of a planet's economy, this is a paltry figure, particularly given
the
>cost of the ships themselves (not to mention operational costs).
>
Where does it say this? The typical Free Trader is 200 to 500 tons. Most
trade within the Imperium takes place in much larger freighters. At least by
every version of Travellers published after High Guard. I'm interested in
how the numbers play out for these ships.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 20:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Jun 11 19:14:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
Message-ID: <200206120212.IGL06950@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Anthony Colosetti" says
>With gravitics there is no real additional cost in getting 
>cargo to orbit.
>Just hydrogen and time...
>

That's like saying FedEx is just jet fuel and time.  If that 
were so, then the Postal Service wouldn't be so lame that 
their "Priority Mail" is consistently later than ordinary 
first class mail.

Cargo has to be moved in an efficient manner.  Inefficiency 
in loading and unloading freight, routing of shipments, or 
bad distribution from the port facility can cost as much or 
more than the actual fuel cost of the vessel. 
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 20:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 19:15:02 2002
Subject: cell phones (was Re: [TML] VRF Shotgun?)
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAECICEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20611.190926.9z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>>
>>The cell phone assassinations were numerous through the 90s,
>>with Israel killing a bombmaker known as the Engineer, and
>>many others across not only the West Bank, but Lebanon as
>>well.  I think that using a cell phone in certain career
>>paths is right up there with starting your car (or, as in a
>>recent movie, using your cigarette lighter).
>
> Thanks everyone for these great ideas.  I'm running a campaign involving the
> Roupian mafia on Regina, and they will of course try to whack their enemies
> in creative ways -- and be whacked in return.

Just consider the fun you can cause if you tamper with an FGMP cartridge.

> --Glenn
>
> "Ah, my commdot's vibrating.  Do I answer it or not?"

Can't put much explosive in there. but a biotoxin on it is another
thing entirely.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 20:15:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 19:15:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: High TL-Low Pop
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206110455430.9736-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <20611.185736.1V9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, John Hamill wrote:
>
>> The problem seems to be with thinking that it takes people to run a
>> TL15 civilization. Most manufacturing, mining and food processing
>> will undoubtedly be done by computers and robots, with other, more
>> sophisticated computers and robots supervising and repairing them.
>> You would probably be able to buy (for an extremely large amount of
>> money) a "Complete TL15 Colony In A Box!" that would provide most of
>> the manufacturing and processing that you would need for a small
>> colony. As far as the genetic problems of a small colony, you have
>> some pretty sophisticated medical technology that would
>> significantly ease any problems in that regard. As a matter of fact,
>> when it comes to high tech colonization, it seems to me that you
>> would probably have more small colony efforts than large ones, as
>> small groups who were fed up with the overcrowding on high-tech,
>> high-pop planets looked for an escape. Likely the colonists would
>> look for a place where they could live an "uncrowded" lifestyle,
>> which would explain the high TL, low-pop worlds out there.

> But sooner, later rhan later a part is going to break that the robots
> can't fix themself.

On what do you base this *assumption*?

It makes about as much sense as "science will never be able to create
life in the laboratory". And is based on a similar set of (likely
faulty) assumptions.

Once you get to the point where robots *can* repair each other, the
likelyhood of them and the facilities they are running *not* being able
able to make the needed part is really low.

> Unless the humans know how to manufacture that part, they'll have to
> import it from the outside. Only a society were you have AI computers
> will it be possible for robots to manufacture every concivable part
> that goes into making a colony, 

Nope. because all the parts will be *known* and having the
"instructions" for making them on file would be part of the
*requirements* for such a setup. 

What you are describing would be equivalent to marketing a kit for
building some electronic device with some of the parts not included,
nor listed in the parts list.

> and even then, should the AI itself break, outside help is needed.

Only if you are stupid enough to have only *one* AI. 

Any setup intended to be self-sustaining on that level will have at
least *three* of everything. 


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 20:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark)
Date: Tue Jun 11 19:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine
In-Reply-To: <3D0622D9.C6795448@berka.com>
Message-ID: <004601c211b7$3be5d2c0$2f7de40c@loki>

Thank you sir for the LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine.

Coolness

-peace-
The views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you
expect?
<n2sami@attbi.com>
<http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 20:18:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 11 19:18:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1023841432.1183.ajackson@ping>
References: <3D069005.8000307@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <ML-2.3.1023841432.1183.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020612121703.A26964@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> There seems to be some sort of regulation on legal cabin sizes,
> since the maximum occupancy of cabins is 2 people in a 4 dton cabin,
> which is rather low.

No, it's 2 people per unit of cabin *space*, which includes corridors,
galleys, bathrooms, dining areas and the behind-the-scenes equipment
required to support it all.  The cabin itself takes up a relatively
small fraction of its allocated space.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 20:20:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Jun 11 19:20:06 2002
Subject: cell phones (was Re: [TML] VRF Shotgun?)
Message-ID: <200206120219.IGM00359@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

LKW writes
>I once saw a dog relieve itself on an electrified fence. I 
>used to laugh at 
>the memory, until the day I discovered that it is possible 
>to discharge 
>static electricity through a stream of urine.
>

I've done that, but only as the unwitting victim of a hazing 
ritual while blindfolded.  

I don't recommend the practice (some people at the 502nd 
thought it quite amusing, though).
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 20:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 11 19:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <200206120035.IGJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200206120035.IGJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020612122016.B26964@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> That's another interesting item.  Is there a "standard" shipping
> container in Traveller?  Is the "modular" cutter part of this?

Far Trader has standard containers in 20', 30', and 40' lengths, with
volumes of 4, 6, and 8 dtons (they're larger than real-life shipping
containers).  I expect that a modular cutter with cargo-handling
modules is designed to accept one or more of these sizes.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 20:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Jun 11 19:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <019701c21195$99265260$b50fa118@upstairs>
References: <NDBBIEPGALFKHNKLGFIJKEFNCJAA.tvanderneut@futureorbits.com>
 <000c01c20f8d$a1674420$309193c3@martinjd>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020611192836.00a00a00@mindspring.com>

At 06:16 PM 6/11/02 -0400, you wrote:

>As I understand it...say a guy hops in a FTL ship and goes for a cruise away
>from the Earth. Time slows down for him (obvious to any observers but to the
>guy-in-the-FTL-ship time appears to be flowing normally.) So when the guy
>returns, he is only a bit older than when he left but many years might have
>passed for those on the Earth.

That's *near* lightspeed travel. You can;t actually reach lightspeed 
without having infinite mass, infinite power requirements, and other drawbacks.

But it is basically correct:  If I jump on a ship that heads round trip to 
Alpha Centauri at .9999 c, Only a fraction of the actual travel time would 
have passed for me onboard ship.

>If it took years for any rescuers to arrive, what would be the point of
>sending an SOS? How would intrasystem commerce work if you were working with
>many-year's worth of transport time for goods? How does Traveller solve this
>time-lapse in communications and transport?

You don't, and it doesn't.  Read Niven's Leshy circut stories.

>Hmmm...it just hit me that there's probably a FAQ for this list that
>explains this or perhaps there's a thread from the archives that covers
>this. Can anyone point me to an answer? Traveller seems to use quite a bit
>of hard science, so I'm sure there's an answer.

Ah.  Traveller shortcuts the physical universe entirely.  Our ships "jump" 
into another state where they simply pop out 168 hours later at the desired 
point in space.  Jump space doesn't follow the same laws as our 
universe.  You wrap a little bit of our universe around yourself and spend 
one week *completely* cut of from the rest of the cosmos.  None of these 
nasty problems with relativity and the twin paradox.



Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 20:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Tue Jun 11 19:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <200206120035.IGJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEMOEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>e.g. Auckland to San Francisco at
>>is about US$4000 per 40-foot container, including packing,
>>customs, CABAF and terminal fees.  Such a container has a
>>volume of about 6 dtons.
><snip
>
>That's another interesting item.  Is there a "standard"
>shipping container in Traveller?  Is the "modular" cutter
>part of this?
>
Short answer: Yes. No.

Long answer: According to GT:Far Trader there are various standard container
sizes ranging from the 2 dton D container to the 8 dton A container. There
is a cutter module which is made to carry 2 C containers, but generally
cutter modules are not part of the same system. Modular containers are 30
dtons in size.

>I would bet that if cargo was in standard containers, that
>could be dropped from a dispersed structure on arrival, the
>ship with the jump drives could continue to refuel and reload
>with the next batch of cargo while orbital interface vehicles
>brought the containers to the surface.  Even ships that made
>their own approach to the surface would be loaded and
>unloaded more quickly.  Even ground handling of cargo would
>be easier (maglev?).
>________________
This is discussed in FT. There it's called LASH: Lighter Aboard Ship. A
lighter is a cargo vessel. A large company could keep lighters at each of
the ports it services. The lighters are loaded with cargo and meet the
carrier at the jump point. At the far end fueling ships and loaded lighters
meet the carrier after it jumps in and releases its inbound lighters, which
proceed to the part while the LASH carrier is already jumping out.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 20:55:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Tue Jun 11 19:55:21 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
References: <200206120212.IGL06950@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <010e01c211bc$700bf1b0$1c577b83@Gideon>

<qoute>


> "Anthony Colosetti" says
> >With gravitics there is no real additional cost in getting
> >cargo to orbit.
> >Just hydrogen and time...
> >
>
> That's like saying FedEx is just jet fuel and time.  If that
> were so, then the Postal Service wouldn't be so lame that
> their "Priority Mail" is consistently later than ordinary
> first class mail.
>
> Cargo has to be moved in an efficient manner.  Inefficiency
> in loading and unloading freight, routing of shipments, or
> bad distribution from the port facility can cost as much or
> more than the actual fuel cost of the vessel.

</quote>

Mr. Kwon,

Perhaps I was a bit flippant in my remark above and I should have been a bit
more detailed in my answer.  In a way, yes FedEx is just jet fuel and time,
all in all it adds up to a very inexpensive way to ship for me as a
customer, mere dollars to the kilogram.  What I was trying to allude to is
how incredibly cheap ground to orbit is with gravitics.  Our current cost is
somewhere in the neighborhood of tens of thousands of dollars to the
kilogram to get a package to orbit.  With gravitics there is no high-cost,
near-experimental, flying bombs moving my load of raw steel to orbit but a
everyday, common as dirt, bulk trader that makes cargo runs on a weekly
basis.  The fuel use is so miniscule that it barely rates measurement.  I
hope this clears up my position a bit more...

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 21:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Jun 11 20:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine
In-Reply-To: <3D0622D9.C6795448@berka.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020611230039.00ccfee0@192.168.0.1>

Why cool!  Thanks!

At 06:18 PM 6/11/2002 +0200, P-O Bergstedt wrote:
>Hi!
>
>Just for fun, there is now a
>LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine at my site at URL:
>http://zho.berka.com/goodies/lbb_render.html
>
>Yes, I know it is a quite useless webpage, but
>at least I thought it was fun...
>
>   _____         _____   P-O Bergstedt
>  /     \       /     \  Stockholm/SWEDEN
>/ * A o \_____/       \_____
>\   @   /     \       / Visit the Zhodani Base:
>  \BERKA/       \_____/  http://zho.berka.com/
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?
----------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 21:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Tue Jun 11 20:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Imperium IMTU (long)
In-Reply-To: <B92BA05B.5E6F1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEMPEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>But this assumes that some product designed on one planet will work
>everywhere.  That's quite an assumption.  A BMW M5 may be great on the
>autobahn, but not much use in Quito, Equidor where you're lucky to find a
>decent road 5 miles outside the city proper.  We are talking about worlds
>here, not countries.
>
>And in a sense, standards often serve to stifle innovation.

Even better. At last a reasonable explanation for why technological progress
is so slow in the Traveller universe. Any new innovation must conform to all
of the standards, so completely stifling innovation that there are very few
technological advances.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 21:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 11 20:16:05 2002
Subject: cell phones (was Re: [TML] VRF Shotgun?)
In-Reply-To: <200206111726.IFV01219@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20611.191223.2q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Glenn M. Goffin" says
>>Thanks everyone for these great ideas.  I'm running a 
>>campaign involving the Roupian mafia on Regina, and they 
>>will of course try to whack their enemies
>>in creative ways -- and be whacked in return.
>
> Don't forget the obvious -- there is a lot of historical 
> precedent for rigging small arms.  I remember reading about 
> hand grenades with "short" fuses, and small arms ammunition 
> that had the bullet pulled, the powder replaced with C4, and 
> the bullet re-seated.  Somewhere in mid-clip, the firer gets 
> an instant field strip.

There's always the classic trick (at our TL anyway) of partially
filling a light bulb with gasoline. You turn on the light. the filament
causes the gasoline to vaporize, bursting the bulb and spraying
gasoline across the room and igniting it as the filament burns out. 

For some real fun, spike the fuel feed to a fusion reactor with
deuterium or tritium. If you gimmick the controls right, you should
ruin the reactor before the engineer can hit the shutdown. And
contaminate the hell out of the area with the high neutron flux. 

Hmmm. A lower level of D-T contamination could let the fusion plant in
a vehicle run ok, but give lethal radiation doses to the passengers.
And make the vehicle radioactive as hell in the bargain.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 21:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Tue Jun 11 20:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
Message-ID: <3D06BFC1.EB865B3F@ameritech.net>

> Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:15:56 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>
> sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
>
>> OTOH, at TL 12+ robots become increasingly common.  I could 
>> easily imagine a perfectly self-sustaining world with a 
>> population of maybe between 100,000+ (or at most 1,000,000+) 
>> that maintained TL 15 w/o aid simply by virtue to the fact 
>> that it was extensively automated.
>
> While this is possible, I suspect it's very unlikely, because the
> required capital investment per person is unreasonably high.  Just 
> because something _can_ be done doesn't mean it _will_ be done.

Actually if you assume cheap energy and plentifull raw materials the
only capital outly is for the first robot factory. After that capital,
labor, and materials functionally provide themselves. If you need 
workers build more robots. If you require more energy build another 
fusion plant. More materials can be had by sending the drone prospector
to the planetoid belt. Once the cycle gets started the only real 
limitation is your desire.

The question becomes - given the technical capabilities of the Imperium 
- why isn't every world's production given over to full scale robotic 
manufacturing? 

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 22:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 11 21:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <3D06BFC1.EB865B3F@ameritech.net>
References: <3D06BFC1.EB865B3F@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20020612142614.C26964@freeman.little-possums.net>

David Shayne wrote:
> Actually if you assume cheap energy and plentifull raw materials the
> only capital outly is for the first robot factory. After that
> capital, labor, and materials functionally provide themselves.

For that, the AI capability needs to be sufficient to handle any
problem that might crop up anywhere in all stages of production,
including unforeseen situations.  Otherwise you need expert human
labour to diagnose and fix problems, and more labour to instruct the
AI how to deal with it in the future.

Without such AI capability, problems will arise that can't be solved
internally, and the affected subsystem will falter or fail.  Anything
depending upon that subsystem will also falter or fail.

Some of these problems may be inherent to a type of subsystem and
hence redundancy won't be sufficient to compensate.  Diagnosing and
dealing with such situations may cost many require human labour
costing many millions of credits per occurrence.


> The question becomes - given the technical capabilities of the
>Imperium - why isn't every world's production given over to full
>scale robotic manufacturing?

Traveller's AI isn't good enough -- or just not trusted enough.

(Ick, can you imagine what a long-lived strain of TNE Virus would do
with the capability for completely human-free TTL F self-replicating
civilization?  Saberhagen's Berserkers spring to mind, or Benford's
galaxy-spanning Mech society)


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 22:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Maksim-Smelchak)
Date: Tue Jun 11 21:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]
In-Reply-To: <F194AY1RfKYglKJ9Nb60001b919@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPEEANDNAA.max200@lanset.com>

Larsen,

POLITICAL DISCLAIMER:
Please don't read this E-mail if you disdain political opinions.

Bless you for not letting go of your opinions regarding Cuba. I got a good
chuckle from your response as I worked in Cuba and was monumentally
unimpressed with Fidel's "paradise." After Russia/USSR cut off Cuba's "play
money," their economy foundered badly and had to go and beg for
Euro-tourists and for the US to slacken their tough stance against Cuba.

I feel the same way when I hear about the nonexistent "middle class" among
the Palestinian Arabs or the peaceful "aspirations" of Arafat's bombmakers.

There's a TL scenario somewhere in this thread. Maybe a backwater agri-world
with pretensions to "politically correct" behavior but an economy that
really relies on piracy.

Cheers,
Maksim-Smelchak.

-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
     "...but on the other hand their biotechnology is first rate."
Mr. Bradley,
     Perhaps first rate when judged against a group of their peers; other
Third World nations.
Thanks to their totalitarian version of quality control; the jefe says it's
good, so it's good, Cuban bio-tech and pharmaceutical products can only be
imported by other equally wretched countries. Very few of their products can
pass muster for export to the First World, the EU included.

>>> "That's why the US government was telling lies about them selling
chemical weapons a few
>>> weeks ago - the US doesn't want Cuba to be able to make money out of one
of the few areas of >>> their economy that they are competitive in."

     Leaving the chemical weapons charges aside for the moment, I believe
the US government, and the drugs companies which own large chunks of it, are
more worried about Cuban piracy of WTO patented products.  What Red China is
to software and DVDs, Cuba is to pharmaceuticals.
     As loathe as I am to defend the drug companies, I can understand a
small part of their argument.  When a knock off of your product, shabbily
manufactured and packaged to look exactly like the real thing, fails to cure
or even kills, you have a serious problem.

>>> "One of Cuba's other "high-tech" industries, incidentally, is organic
farming. They've had to >>> develop agricultural methods that weren't
dependent on oil and other chemicals."

     Which, of course, is why they cannot feed themselves.  Even that noted
agricultural giant, the late Soviet Union, had to ship food stuffs to them.
     A recent tussle among the kleptocrats in Washington was about modifying
the current Cuban trade embargo to allow shipments of food stuffs. FWIW, I
believe the trade embargo is the greatest friend Castro ever had. The
embargo has much more to do with winning emigre votes in Florida than
forcing Castro from power.
     Does anyone else find it ironic that repatriated dollars, to the tune
of several billions each year, from those same emigres does more to keep
Cuba afloat than anything else?

>>> "Potentially/eventually this could be a powerful asset to other Third
World countries.  Of >>> course, this would cut into the profits of
companies like Monsanto..."

     Which, IMHO, would a very good thing. Unfortunately, no one, Cuba
included, has yet demonstrated the ability to reach the required farming
yield levels without at least a modicum of help from Honking Big Machines or
other technologies.

>>> "Not all technology involves Honking Big Machines."

     Very true. The one thing I've found missing from most games, books,
movies, etc. set in the future is the "softening" or "greening" of
technology. Everything seems to be focussed on mega-ultra-heavy industrial
schemes. Steel production in 2000 has nothing like the enviromental impact
it did in 1900. Why shouldn't the same hold true for other aspects of
technology?

>>> "Don't mess with Space Hippies."

     I've posted this before and will most likely post it again and again;
No high ascetic, touchy-feely, houlier-than-thou, society can exist without
contact with a real society that gets all the dirty work done. Militant
Veganism, Neo-Luddism, High Church Enviromentalism, and the rest of that ilk
are naught but LUXURIES which are ultimately supported by the very forces
and processes they profess to loathe.
     You can only bitch when your stomach is full.
Sincerely,
Larsen.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 23:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Jun 11 22:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Imperium IMTU (long)
In-Reply-To: <B92BC9CB.5E7B4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B92BC9CB.5E7B4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3r8jdyspp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> Good point.  An this meshes nicely with the Vilani psychology.  But
> it does not explain the same retarded technological growth in, say,
> the Solomani Confederation, where, according to canon, those pesky
> Solomani are divisive, adventurous and will give anything a go.

Good standards don't retard growth--bad standards do.  As examples,
standard measurements (whether metric or otherwise) have gone a long
way towards aiding advancement of engineering (imagine having to deal
with Paris measures, and Rheims measures, and...).  The POSIX standard
has provided a semi-solid base for development for the last many
years, although it has impeded the adoption of e.g. capabilities and
persistent memory systems (both are used in EROS, which provides both
rock-solid security and the ability to lose power and boot right back
into the appropriate state).  The SGML standard paved the way for
HTML--the core of which is a decent little language--and DocBook,
which is one of the nicest markup languages around.

The problem is when the standard is ill-thought out or ill-understood.
The OSI network stack is an example of the latter, while Microsoft
Windows (`standard' in that it is common, not that it is properly
documented or static) is an example of the former.

And the time does come when standards need to be revisited.  I'm told
that at one point in time 20 gauge steel helmets were permitted in the
SCA; that standard has been superseded by 14 or 16 gauge (forget
which).  The POSIX standard could stand a little revisiting.

You'll note that the common thread here is that standards found in
growing areas are more suspect than those in long-established ones.
The mile's been around in one form or another since the Romans:
there's not much to fiddle with.  The operating system, OTOH, has only
been around for some 50 years or so.

So perhaps the Vilani standardised on things too early.

I've never considered the Solomani, what with the Party controlling
everything.  They probably settled on the kiloparsec-femtosecond
standard, and that's where all their problems stem from.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Voskrese!  Voistinu Voskrese!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 23:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Jun 11 22:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Imperium IMTU (long)
In-Reply-To: <001b01c211aa$cba054b0$1c577b83@Gideon>
References: <B92BA05B.5E6F1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <001b01c211aa$cba054b0$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <m3n0u1ysm5.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Anthony Colosetti" <acoloset@kent.edu> writes:
> 
> I'm going to bring up a point here I feel very strongly about.  To
> have an empire you must have a cultural identity.

Isn't that the reverse of the normal definition, which is that an
empire is a collection of varying cultures and languages bound
together politically?  Thus Austria-Hungary was an empire, Rome was an
empire, Holy Russia was an empire (as was Communist Russia), but the
US is not an empire (well, unless you count Puerto Rico, Guam and
Hawaii).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Hristus A Inviat!  Adeverat a Inviat!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 23:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Jun 11 22:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <3d069c10.55113260@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <F64QIWGhCtEJ6XNt3Bq0001caf2@hotmail.com>
 <022301c211a0$29faff70$b50fa118@upstairs>
 <3d069c10.55113260@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <m3it4pys1c.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

tml@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest) writes:
> 
> I've always wondered whether starships' clocks would be set to
> Terran Standard Time (and would that be GMT or some other time
> zone), Vland Time, or the time of their home planet?

Well, on individual planets it doesn't make sense to keep Capital time
exactly--time is useful for measuring the state of the day more than
anything else.  So I imagine planets use their own local `day,' which
is simply the number of standard hours the day is long, rounded off
(so the day on a planet with a rotation period of 8.14 hours would be
8, and each hour would be 1.0175 standard hours, or 61.05 minutes or
3,663 seconds).

Despite what the OTU states, I'm not certain if planets use the
Imperial calendar for local use--calendars are useful for planting,
determing weather &c.  Almanacs on a world with an orbital period of
126 days as well as one with an orbital period of 496 days would be
excessively complex and painful, used they the Imperial calendar.

OTOH, it is a given that conversions to the Imperial calendar be
well-known and published.

Now, how does all this apply to starships?  The only real reason to
use local time is if one is stuck on a locale for quite awhile, or if
one spends the majority of one's time visiting a particular planet.
Otherwise it makes most sense to hew to the standard Imperial
calendar, since it's about as good as any, and the days are sized
appropriately for most humans.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christ is Risen!  Truly He is Risen!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 23:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Jun 11 22:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <20020612084751.H26076@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020611182504.DBE8A27B34@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <E17HrUH-0005uC-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
 <20020612084751.H26076@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <m3elfdyrxc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> 
> Yes, you're right--it's wacky.  Plants need more light energy than
> they supply to people who eat them.

Do plants get 100% of their energy from light, or do they retrieve any
from the stuff they break down in the soil?

> People aren't 100% efficient at using that energy to pedal bikes,
> either.  So where does the extra energy come from?

The sum of energy is obviously going down (heat is conducted away from
the hull); possibly what's happening is that the bicycle/plant process
is enough to barely keep the folks alive.  A way of prolonging death,
not of ensuring a stable society.

But I'd expect it to last a year or two, maybe--not 30.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Crist is arisen!  Arisen he sothe!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 11 23:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Jun 11 22:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEMFEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEMFEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <m3adq1yrkk.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> writes:
> 
> What I'm getting at is that if you aren't rich or in the military or a
> member of one of the space shipping professions you will not be able to
> travel out of your own system unless you're emigrating somewhere on a one
> way trip.

I don't see that.  According to GT, low passage is 1,000Cr per jump
(the GT Cr is equal to the GURPS dollar, which is really a mid-80s
dollar, so let's say it's about $900).  Even middle passage is 8,000Cr
per jump (let's say $7,200 per jump).  The median household income in
the US is supposed to be something like $45,000 right now; after taxes
that's really $30,000.  This means that low passage for an average
family is $3,600--about the same amount many folks spend on TVs and
vacations.  Middle passage for them all would come to som
$28,800--almost a year's wages.

So most folks are likely to choose low passage, but even middle
passage is not out of the question, considering that it's slightly
less than the average New York wedding
<http://www.ivillage.com/relationships/weddings/articles/0,,89536,00.html>.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Al masi qam!  Hakan qa'am!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 00:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Jun 11 23:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]
Message-ID: <F261rk3lvP0tnUgYEXW000196fb@hotmail.com>

From: "Maksim-Smelchak" <max200@lanset.com>

     "Please don't read this E-mail if you disdain political opinions."


Sir,

     I do not disdain political opinions, in fact I welcome them in their 
place.  The TML is not the place for them.  I probably broke one of my own 
prohibitions with regards to flame bait when I responded to Mr. Bradley's 
original post.
     May I congratulate you for contacting me directly instead via the TML?  
You showed far better sense than I.

     "Bless you for not letting go of your opinions regarding Cuba. I got a 
good chuckle from your response as I worked in Cuba and was monumentally 
unimpressed with Fidel's "paradise." After Russia/USSR cut off Cuba's "play 
money," their economy foundered badly and had to go and beg for 
Euro-tourists and for the US to slacken their tough stance against Cuba."

     I've been to Cuba too, had to get special dispensation from State with 
regards to my security clearance.  The vast majority of people with opinions 
of Cuba have never been there.
     The binary thinking of some folks continues to amaze me.  If one side 
of an argument is shown to have warts, they will immediately find for the 
other side, no matter how wretched.  The US has done nasty things to Cuba in 
the past, but that doens't make Castro right.

     "I feel the same way when I hear about the nonexistent "middle class" 
among the Palestinian Arabs or the peaceful "aspirations" of Arafat's 
bombmakers."

     Another good example of binary thinking.  Sure Isreal has done some bad 
things, but that doesn't necessarily validate the cause of the so-called 
Palestinians.  Just the term Palestinian makes me chuckle.  There were no 
Palestinians prior to the partition in '48.

     "There's a TL scenario somewhere in this thread. Maybe a backwater 
agri-world with pretensions to "politically correct" behavior but an economy 
that really relies on piracy."

     You're right, I'll need to do some thinking about it...
     Put the Ag world next door to a Hi Pop and invent some ancient 
political nonsense between them.  Perhaps the Ag world was once a colony or 
something.  Have the Ag world pols and their apologists blame each and every 
thing that is wrong with their planet on the Hi Pop world.  Have all the 
Neo-Greenies, Sentimentalists, Back-to-Nature, and other goofs on the High 
Pop world scream bloody murder whenever anything "bad" happens.  Keep the 
whole relationship "ticklish".
     Now send in the PCs on a fact finding/snatch mission.  Someone's 
college aged child has chucked it all and gone to the Ag world to live in a 
commune and "help" the natives.  The child continually writes home for 
money.  The parents realize their child is just one of thousands in the same 
situation.
     Is the child okay?  Are they really working as part of some Peace Corp 
style organization?  Are they free to leave?
     Oohhhh, this could get real nasty...
     Thanks for the fodder!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 00:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Tue Jun 11 23:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]
In-Reply-To: <F261rk3lvP0tnUgYEXW000196fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020612011638.0099d630@minn.net>

At 06:03 AM 6/12/2002 +0000, Mr. Whipsnade wrote:
>     "There's a TL scenario somewhere in this thread. Maybe a backwater 
>agri-world with pretensions to "politically correct" behavior but an economy 
>that really relies on piracy."
>
>     You're right, I'll need to do some thinking about it...
>     Put the Ag world next door to a Hi Pop and invent some ancient 
>political nonsense between them.  Perhaps the Ag world was once a colony or 
>something.  Have the Ag world pols and their apologists blame each and every 
>thing that is wrong with their planet on the Hi Pop world.  Have all the 
>Neo-Greenies, Sentimentalists, Back-to-Nature, and other goofs on the High 
>Pop world scream bloody murder whenever anything "bad" happens.  Keep the 
>whole relationship "ticklish".
>     Now send in the PCs on a fact finding/snatch mission.  Someone's 
>college aged child has chucked it all and gone to the Ag world to live in a 
>commune and "help" the natives.  The child continually writes home for 
>money.  The parents realize their child is just one of thousands in the same 
>situation.
>     Is the child okay?  Are they really working as part of some Peace Corp 
>style organization?  Are they free to leave?
>     Oohhhh, this could get real nasty...

And don't forget to bring the grape flavored non carbonated soft drink mix!


Les (with an evil grin)

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 00:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 11 23:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
Message-ID: <20020611.232449.-157267.4.generalturokan@juno.com>

Sorry to butt in here guys, I'm getting ready to shut down.

On 11 Jun 2002 23:41:51 -0600 ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
writes:
> Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> > 
> > Yes, you're right--it's wacky.  Plants need more light energy than
> > they supply to people who eat them.
> 
> Do plants get 100% of their energy from light, or do they retrieve 
> any from the stuff they break down in the soil?

No. plants receive neutrients from the soil, as well as oxygen and water
via their roots. They get photosynthesis from the sun, both work in
tandem. Pull a plant out of the ground it dies in direct sun.  Place the
roots in a container with water, it'll live if it survives the shock.

I don't have access to my conservation books, I can't remember
percentages.

Good night,

Turokan



-   ....   .   .-.   .       ..   ...       -.   ---   -.   .       .-.  
---   .-..   -.--       .-   ...       -   ....   .       .-..   ---  
.-.   -..   ---...       ..-.   ---   .-.       -   ....   .   .-.   .   
   ..   ...       -.   ---   -.   .       -...   .   ...   ..   -..   .  
    -   ....   .   .   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 01:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Jun 12 00:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <20020611.232449.-157267.4.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020611.232449.-157267.4.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020612173720.A27425@freeman.little-possums.net>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> No. plants receive neutrients from the soil, as well as oxygen and water
> via their roots. They get photosynthesis from the sun, both work in
> tandem. Pull a plant out of the ground it dies in direct sun.  Place the
> roots in a container with water, it'll live if it survives the shock.
> 
> I don't have access to my conservation books, I can't remember
> percentages.

Long-term, almost all of the energy comes from photosynthesis.  Plants
do make use of some food chemicals and internal energy stores, but to
do so requires external oxygen which in turn comes from photosynthesis
elsewhere.  They require a *lot* of light, too, and they are very poor
at making use of the reddish light produced by incandescent bulbs
(which are themselves horribly inefficient).

Fertiliser does not provide any significant amount of net energy: it
provides raw materials that (with energy from elsewhere) can be turned
into proteins, enzymes, and various other requirements of living
matter.  Without abundant light, plants can survive, but consume
rather than produce free oxygen.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 02:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Wed Jun 12 01:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
References: <F77jdcK1A809gu1osrb0001ac56@hotmail.com><000501c21123$9a05e3c0$4300a8c0@imogen> <m3r8jd4woo.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <000901c211e8$8d069960$fe00a8c0@imogen>

Robert Uhl wrote:
> Not necessarily overly-specialised; it's just comapritive advantage at
> work.  It makes more sense for the US to design chips, the Taiwanese
> to make 'em and the Brits to buy 'em.

Well I did put that phrase in quote  marks.  :-)  And  regardless
of  the  economic  merits  the  downside  is  still  a  loss   of
self-sufficiency.

Reagards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 02:08:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Wed Jun 12 01:08:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU setting
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206111933320.9214-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <000a01c211e8$8d6b4ea0$fe00a8c0@imogen>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> The big problem with that explanation is that it doesn't really
> explain anything. Specifically it doesn't explain what all those
> transients are doing on Pixie. Also, just what makes the miners
> residents and the rest transients? Do the miners constitute a
> stable society that owns the system?

I thought the transients were  skilled  workers  at  the  factory
(probably on contracts from 6 months to 2 years at a time), naval
staff at the IN base,  starport  personnel  (probably  most  also
General Shipyards contractors), merchants passing  through,  etc.
As to why General Shipyards located its facility  on  Pixie,  who
knows?

The miners, meanwhile,  emmigrated  indefinately  to  make  Pixie
their permanent home.  Why, again who knows?  But they would have
a society of sorts.



> I wonder if General Products pays rent to the miners or the
> shipyard workers pay taxes?

I doubt the miners would be able to extract any  rent,  as  such,
out of General Shipyards ... even if they tried.  But they  would
benefit from the improved starport facilities.

As for the shipyard workers paying taxes: that  would  depend  on
the tax laws of their  respective  homeworlds  (much  as  today's
overseas workers often have  to  pay  tax  in  their  country  of
residence, and be careful  to  avoid  double  taxation  when  the
country they are working in wants to tax them as well.)



> Of course, that interpretation makes the official population
> figure absolutely useless for any calculations of trade volume,
> system defense budget and the like.

For medium  and  high  population  worlds  the  effect  would  be
marginal, for low population worlds (like Pixie) then yes you are
absolutely right.  But given that there is a class A starport,  a
naval base, a major General Shipyards facility,  and  the  x-boat
network passes through the system  then  basing  calculations  of
trade volume and system defense budget on the official figure  of
90 inhabitants was always obveously inadequate.



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 02:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Wed Jun 12 01:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]
In-Reply-To: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPEEANDNAA.max200@lanset.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEHAHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Larsen Whipsnade wrote :
> I've posted this before and will most likely post
> it again and again; No high ascetic, touchy-feely,
> houlier-than-thou,  society can exist without
> contact with a real society that gets all the dirty
> work done.

This is not true.

I would agree that an evolving culture may have to go through a
period during which this is true.

However, any culture which fails to "Clean up it's act" will
eventually die in it's own pollutants. This is as true of humans
as it is true of bacteria and rats.

As with bacteria and rats in these situations, some may survive,
but most won't.

> Militant Veganism, Neo-Luddism, High Church Enviromentalism,
> and the rest of that ilk are naught but LUXURIES which are
ultimately supported
> by the very forces and processes they profess to loathe.

Firstly, I am not advocating any of the above philosphies, I only
advocate responsible, sustainable, technology. But I need to
point out where you are wrong about even the above philosphies.

Militant veganism is is represented in the Traveller universe by
an entire culture, the K'kree's Two Thousand Worlds. I've seen
no-one succesfully put forward the argument that this culture is
not possible.

Luddism is also completely survival, and does not require the
support of another culture, as it merely advocates a return to a
certain level of technology, at which people survived for
centries prior to the Industrial Revolution. Almost 70% of the
worlds population _still_ survive at this level of technology or
below.

I am unfamiliar with High Church Environmentalism, but plain old
ordinary environmentalism of the sort practiced by reasonable
people the world over, such as the recycling of plastic waste,
the reduction of unneccessary waste, especially paper, and the
protection of the ocean's phyto-plankton,  is not a luxury, it is
a neccessity for comfortable survival of the human race on this
planet, assuming we do not manage to find another planet to move
to in the near future.

>      You can only bitch when your stomach is full.

Incorrect. You bitch even more when your stomach is empty.
Until you die.

Which, if we as a planet do not succesfully control production of
pollutants, you, and/or your descendants, will.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 02:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jun 12 01:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Atmospheric Pressures and Charcters?
In-Reply-To: <20020612012207.AFC3527B48@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17I3U2-0001UE-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

> But if you've got a world with elemental abundances weird enough to
> allow plant life that creates a chlorine atmosphere then the water
> will react with the chlorine to produce a *really* corrosive compound
> known as "chlorine water". This stuff will cheerfully disolve *gold*

"chlorine water"?  Isn't that just hydrochloric acid?

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 03:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Jun 12 02:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine
In-Reply-To: <3D0622D9.C6795448@berka.com>
References: <3D0622D9.C6795448@berka.com>
Message-ID: <20020612112447.553b115c.jenry023@student.liu.se>

P-O Bergstedt <zho@berka.com> wrote:
> Just for fun, there is now a 
> LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine at my site at URL:
> http://zho.berka.com/goodies/lbb_render.html

Wooohoo  :-)

http://zho.berka.com/goodies/lbb_gd.cgi?toptext=For+Gearheads+Only&booktext=Supplement+B&subtext=Fire,+Fusion+and+Steel&timeplace=in+the+Errata+Zone&bottext=www.imperiumgames.com&randomcol=N&redval=45&greenval=211&blueval=106&gifguf=gif

/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 04:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 03:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
Message-ID: <200206121012.DAA09162@ping.iii.com>

David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
>>
>> While this is possible, I suspect it's very unlikely, because the
>> required capital investment per person is unreasonably high.  Just 
>> because something _can_ be done doesn't mean it _will_ be done.
>
>Actually if you assume cheap energy and plentifull raw materials the
>only capital outly is for the first robot factory.

Which, since Traveller has no cheap VNs, nor does it have universal 
factories, probably costs on the order of a trillion credits if you
want it fully self-upgrading and self-maintaining.

Remember, robots aren't magical.  They just replace a labor cost with a
capital cost.  We don't have any really good models of the traveller 
economy to play with, but labor costs may really not be the limiting
factor on economic growth, in which case robotic factories really 
won't expand much faster than conventional factories; depending on the
cost of robotics, they may in fact expand slower.

>After that capital,
>labor, and materials functionally provide themselves. If you need 
>workers build more robots. If you require more energy build another 
>fusion plant. More materials can be had by sending the drone prospector
>to the planetoid belt. Once the cycle gets started the only real 
>limitation is your desire.

And time.  Given that free traders (a high risk business) gets an
interest rate of 6%, the return on investment for lower risk goods
(production of infrastructure) is likely quite low.  In the past thousand
years, the GNP of of the Imperium can be estimated to have increased by
about three orders of magnitude.  That may be moderately close to the
possible growth rate.  I'd actually suspect that under the right 
circumstances, an order of magnitude per century is closer to the limit,
but there's no real reason to assume that faster growth is possible.

Remember, robots aren't magical.
the possible growth
rate is at least an order of magnitude in 200 years, and quite
A doubling time
of 30 years (about 2.4%) isn't obviously unreasonable

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 04:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 03:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
Message-ID: <200206121017.DAA07028@ping.iii.com>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) writes:

>
>> People aren't 100% efficient at using that energy to pedal bikes,
>> either.  So where does the extra energy come from?
>
>The sum of energy is obviously going down (heat is conducted away from
>the hull); possibly what's happening is that the bicycle/plant process
>is enough to barely keep the folks alive.  A way of prolonging death,
>not of ensuring a stable society.

Unfortunately, it's actually a way of hastening death.  A person on a 
treadmill has a higher consumption of food and oxygen than a person at
rest, and the energy cost of the consumed materials is higher (by a 
fairly large factor, muscles aren't very efficient) than the energy
output of the treadmill.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 04:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 03:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: high tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206110200250.31289-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20612.003242.7C3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>>Knock out the satellites and get a couple of multi-ton rocks dropped on
>>your launch site or C&C installations by a pissed off Free Trader. At
>>11 km/sec they'll make nice holes.
>
> Oooh, Leonard, that is going to hurt. Hurt the Free Trader, I mean. I
> think using kinetic kill missiles is one of the few ways to make the
> Imperium pissed enough to actively hunt you down. Granted, it doesn't SAY
> so anywhere, but I think it will rank up there with using nuclear weapons
> on the Imperium's list of don'ts.

Why? What I just described is only equivalent to about 30-50 tons of
TNT per missile. And no radiation.

It's just improvised heavy ortillery. Nothing illegal about *that*.

> Be that as it may, the Free Trader is going to have to know where the
> launch site is. Easy enough if they happen to be orbiting on the same side
> of the world during the launch, more difficult if they're in another
> system at the time.

Which is why they may target a C&C site instead. Or some other
expensive, important target.

The basic message being *don't* mess with off-worlder's property.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 04:21:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 03:21:41 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92B72C0.5E684%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20612.003730.7M2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Add natural fibers with special properties, specialty textiles,
>> ornimental plants, pet animals, perfumes and scents, specialty meats
>> (think Alaskan King Crab, Maine Lobster, Kobe Beef), vegetables and
>> fruits...that sort of thing.

<snip>


> Also, there's still the matter of trade balance.  How many lobsters will you
> have to ship to a high tech world to balance the cost of 500 tons of high
> tech electronics which cannot be produced locally.  And what's to stop some
> local on a high tech world from setting up a high tech aquaculture to breed
> lobsters locally at a lesser cost?  If it can be done for a profit, someone
> will do it.

Sure. But you can grow grapes *lots* of places. But you don't get fine
wines from most of them. And the ones you do get taste different.

Likewise, the conniseurs(sp?) can tell the difference between Pacific
and Atlantic oysters. 

Your high tech aquaculture may *not* produce lobsters that taste the
same. Not without investing a *lot* extra in duplicating "minor"
details of the home environment. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 04:22:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 03:22:27 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92B9A8A.5E6E4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20612.004215.8I3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 6/11/02 10:57 AM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
>
>> For reference, GTL10 bulk freighters (J2) run about 0.2 MCr/dton cargo 
> space,
>> with pretty low operating expenses.  Assuming 30 jumps per year and a 
> desired
>> income of 7.5% of the ship's cost per year, shipping costs are on the 
> order of
>> Cr 500 per dton (Cr 100 per register ton) per jump, in TL 10 credits.  
> There's
>> plenty of goods which might be worth shipping at those costs.
>
> Just did a very limited check on shipping prices.  Current cost per ton to
> ship via sea from Calcutta to New York is running $120 per ton.  That's
> about Cr40, an order of magnitude cheaper than the cost to ship via
> starship.

Nope. Cr 100 per ton *mass* versus Cr 40 per register ton (more or less
ton mass). That's only a factor of 2.5. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 04:23:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 03:23:07 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20020612004350.AC4CF27BDE@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20612.005651.9l4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 06/12/02 at 11:15 AM,  "Duncan Jones" <duncan.jones@lpc.co.nz>
> said:
>
>>Hi there,
>>I don't know if this has already been answered, but a 20 ft container
>>measures 20' length, 8' wide and height can be either 8' (default
>>height), 8'6" or 9'6" (referred to as 'hicube'). The other standard
>>container size is 40'length with the other dimensions the same as for
>>the 20'. Cheers,
>
> Thanks Duncan.
>
> So, a 20' container is 1280 or 1360 or 1520 square feet,

You mean *cubic* feet. :-)

> that works
> out to  roughly 2.5, 2.7, or 3.0 dTons. The 40' container would be
> double that, 5 to 6 dTons.

roughly 36.25 m^3 which is 2.7 dtons (at 13.5m^3 per dton) or 2.6 dtons
at 14 m^3 per dton.

All assuming 8' high, of course.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 04:23:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 03:23:43 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <200206111951.IFZ06702@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20612.004522.7P8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Quick question: the register ton on earth corresponds to a 
> displacement ton of water, while the Traveller dTon is a 
> displacement ton of liquid hydrogen.  I've always wondered 
> about this, because a waterborne ship displaces a set amount 
> per unit of cargo.  If her capacity is 10,000 tons, then we 
> can fit 10,000 tons of lead bricks in a fairly small area and 
> set to sea with ship riding low in the water (there's more 
> room left in the ship, but we can't load anymore for safety 
> reasons).  I've wondered how this works in Traveller, since 
> it seems to mention displacement, and not mass.  I could fit 
> quite a few lead bricks in 14 cubic meters of cargo space.  
> Am I limited to 1 ton of mass for every 14 cubic meters of 
> cargo space in a Traveller ship?

This has been a matter of some dispute. Some rules versions say mass
matters, others say volume matters.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 04:24:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 03:24:22 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <87.1cb3a7c4.2a3795a2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20612.015629.3V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 11/06/02 13:25:30 GMT Daylight Time, 
> a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:
>
>> > Hm..and gee, the same handwave for Gyomar.  Guess we have to limit
>> > ourselves to places like Tondoul (E5136A7-4); 7 million people at TL 4
>> > with only a trace atmosphere...
>> 
>> No problems, you can easily support a vacuum colony with 
>> Victorian Tech (TL4), possibly with Renaissance Tech (TL3)
>> 
>> Air Pumps = TL2
>> Hydraulics = TL3
>> Airtight seals = TL3
>> Cracking Oxygen from Ice = TL4?

"Late" TL3. Humphrey Davies in England was extracting sodium from salt
(a *much* harder trick) around 1815. TL4 starts at 1860.

>> Sealed suits with life support = TL4
>> Electrical generators = TL4

> Are you sure? Seven million people need a lot of gas to survive, even
> if they all sit around doing nothing - if they were all Mr Textbook
> around 42,000,000 L a minute. The air has has to have relatively low
> levels of CO2 and the best power source you've got access to is coal?

With a "trace" atmosphere, solar power is *very* practical. Lots of
mirrors focused on a boiler. 

> How do you produce food? Animals need oxygen and produce CO2 and
> other waste gases. Plants can help you off-set the problem somewhat
> but a TTL 4 you're agricultural infrastructure is reliant on
> manpower.  Lots of farm workers harvesting grain in tethered TTL 4
> vacc suits?

TTL 4 is when agriculture got mechanized. That's when things like
combines were invented.

Animal protien will be a a lot scarcer. But the Japanese (to name but
one culture) did just fine with minimal amounts of animal protien in
the diet.

You *can* get a complete diet from plants. Add a few *small* food
animals such as rabbits, chickens, guinea pigs or goats and you have
the situation well in hand. And note that all of the listed animals
will cheerfully eat portions of plants that humans can't.

Toss in a few chickens while you are at it.

The waste products of animals (including humans) recycle as fertilizer.

Unless the plants are native, they'll likely be grown in some sort of
greenhouses. 

I'm not sure if TL4 is up to producing a decent plastic that's flexible
and can be formed into large sheets or not. If it is, picture plastic
"bubbles" encased in netting to help support them against the pressure.

Or they may even have the growing areas underground, under artificial
lighting. "Growlights" are quite within TL4 tech. They are basicly a
gas discharge tube with a phosphor coating on the inside. The trick is
having the right phospors. 

And I suspect yuou could do the same (at higher power cost) with carbon
arc lights with phosphor screens in front.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 04:24:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 03:24:59 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1023814795.113.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20612.021345.9m3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:
>
>
>> Cracking Oxygen from Ice = TL4?
> Requires electrical power; not sure where that is on the traveller TL scale,
> TL4 may be ok.  Also requires a power source which doesn't use oxygen, which
> means either nuclear or photovoltaic, either of which is TL 6.

Nope. Photocells, *not* silicon solar cells, are late TL4. Selenium, as
I recall. 

And you can build a very nice steam engine that uses solar mirrors to
heat the boiler. In fact, that was how the early space station designs
(1940s and 50s) planned to generate power. 

And nuclear is a bit odd. We didn't discover it (and the theory) until
TL 5. But you *could* build and maintain a reactor at TL4. Maybe even
at TL3. But you'd have to be shown how.

Natural uranium makes for a poor fuel. but you can breed more fuel from
it.

> Of course, this isn't the method you'd use.  Most habitats probably
> use plants for air, and all you need for that is the ability to build
> large vacuum-resistant windows, which is dependent on the ability to
> build really big sheets of tough glass

You don't need *big* sheets. In fact, if it isn't so tough, there are
good reasons for using *smaller* pieces. And while thick glass will cut
down on the light getting thru, it won't cut down that badly. And it
*will* cut down on the UV and other radaition getting thru.

Being able to *see* thru the glass isn't necessary. 

I suspect that it'd be more practical to put the farms under several
meters of rock, and use artifical light, powered by solar generators. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 04:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Wed Jun 12 03:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: jump question
In-Reply-To: <20020612024007.7AB1E27B46@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020612024007.7AB1E27B46@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <b09egugf4fd6pt5gjb1bbddl6sf1l8gn3j@4ax.com>

On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:39:03 -0700, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) wrote:

>One possible way to test this would be to do a "null jump" (ie a jump
>to where you already are) and dump stuff out of the jump bubble and see
>if anything can be detected in the vicinty of the ship's entry/exit point.

This assumes, of course, that dumping stuff out in jspace doesn't rupture
the jbubble into causing a destroyed mishap for the jump.  YTUMV.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 05:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 04:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <200206111818.IFW00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20612.023853.8b9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> As an indication of how little we know about what to 
> intentionally grow to sustain life, take a look at the 
> failure of that sealed environment experiment (Bio- what?).

Not true. Biosphere II was expected to help us learn more.

Alas, the main thing that was learned was that concrete *eats* oxygen
in the process of curing. At least for the first few years. That
*alone* screwed up the system.

> I would presume that if you did know what to grow, in what 
> combinations, and how much, you could run a vacuum 
> colony "under glass" that didn't require a nuclear 
> powerplant.  And sunlight can be focused onto a steam 
> generator using mirrors.  On the sunny side of the moon, that 
> wouldn't take much of a mirror.

But it would take some gearing to *track* the sun.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 05:19:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 04:19:38 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <F154jYg5OfVoA1MyqRV0001bb84@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20612.034803.6v4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
>
>      "Yes, you're right -- it's wacky.  Plants need more light energy than 
> they supply to people who eat them.  People aren't 100% efficient at using 
> that energy to pedal bikes, either.  So where does the extra
> energy come from?"

The ship was *full* of other things as well, rations, some bottled
oxygen and other things. It's implausible, but not totally insane.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 05:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Jun 12 04:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] jump question
In-Reply-To: <20611.173331.0R5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <F36vz6udwWNBoOeBkOb0001b8da@hotmail.com>
 <20611.173331.0R5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020612123837.20561fa8.jenry023@student.liu.se>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> Or, as many folks seem to think, it drops out of jump space one atom
> (or even nucleon) at a time.

I am one of these people  :-)

> One possible way to test this would be to do a "null jump" (ie a jump
> to where you already are) and dump stuff out of the jump bubble and see
> if anything can be detected in the vicinty of the ship's entry/exit point.

IMTU, a dispersed cloud of atoms would indeed appear, but it would be very thinly spread out over a large volume of space. The cloud would be roughly spherical in the case of a null jump, and roughly cigarr-shaped for other jumps (with the exit and entry points inside the ends of the cigarr).

The atoms appear with some kind of statistical normal distribution, both in time and in space. This means that they do not appear all at once, and thus would be quite difficult to detect.

Somewhat inconclusive research by Imperial scientists show that the above seems to be correct. However, there are many tales about crew doing extra-vehicular activity in jump meeting horrible fates one way or another... referring to voices and faces at the edge of the bubble and jumping out to meet them... being snatched away by unseen forces... and so on.

I like to keep the scientific feel of the setting by having explanations for everything, but at the same time keeping various tales and legends that defy those explanations. Kind of like a renaissance setting. The educated "know" that things work according to the laws of nature, the commoners "know" otherwise.

As for who is correct IMTU, I don't see the need to decide that, even for myself.

/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 05:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Jun 12 04:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Atmospheric Pressures and Charcters?
In-Reply-To: <20611.165143.3x3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020610234248.704a50fd.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20611.165143.3x3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020612122847.7821d2af.jenry023@student.liu.se>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> How long do you care about? "Vacuum" sealed canisters maintain a psi or
> so of difference for years.

Yes, true. However, they let small amounts of air in. This is not a problem for food and such (not enough air to cause noticable decay), but if the air was replaced by flourine, I wouldn't want to be inside that suit for too long.

> Sure it does. In fact it's the only practical option if the atmosphere
> outside is something you *don't* want getting inside.

Exactly.

> 5-10 atm internal pressure is not that big a problem. Saturation divers
> deal with that sort of thing for days at a time. And it should be
> doable indefinitely.

OK, I am not well educated about the medical effects of overpressure, so I cannot really comment. However, it takes time to get used to the different pressure, so you'd not be able to put on that EVA suit in a hurry and rush out...

> Actually, it depends on the leak rate. At less than 5% oxygen it won't
> burn/explode. The exact value depends on the gas in question. Look up
> "flammability range" for various gases. there's an upper *and* lower
> limit for danger when mixed with oxygen.

OK...

> But if you've got a world with elemental abundances weird enough to
> allow plant life that creates a chlorine atmosphere then the water will
> react with the chlorine to produce a *really* corrosive compound known
> as "chlorine water". This stuff will cheerfully disolve *gold*.

Not OK...   :-)

"I am wearing an EVA suit, damnit. Why should I care about rain?"

/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 07:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Wed Jun 12 06:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crew hits
In-Reply-To: <OGBBICAMOLJHJILPIOEPOEFJCAAA.kaukgannir@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20020612125914.34069.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

A long  while back (about 8 months maybe.)I asked a
question about crew hits. I was new to the list and
didn't know anything about anyone. Someone gave me a
link to his site that contained rules for crew hits
and other things. I saved the site to favorite places,
but my hardrive has been reformatted twice since then.
It looked like a really good site.
Any help would be appreciated. 
thanks.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 07:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Jun 12 06:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #601 - 23 msgs
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA229C1@USCHM203>

"Eris Reddoch" wrote:

>Do you know the dimensions of a "standard 20 ft container?" That would
>let us figure its volume and translate it into Traveller dTons.  
>We've got 14 cubic meters, 13.5 cubic meters and 500 cubic feet
>equaling a dTon in different versions of Traveller, but are all of
>those measurements are close enough to each other not to worry about.

I don't know the exact dimensions, but can find out (unless someone already
has). 
Just at a guess, let's say 20 x 10 x 10 (The height and width might be
closer to 8 feet, but just at a rough guess we'll round it up). That would
be 2000 cubic feet, or 4 dTons. So roughly CR625 per ton. We could say that
with tarriffs, insurance, and such, Cr1000 per ton isn't too far off modern
shipping.

We're talking about big bulk carriers, though. IMTU, Free Traders really
can't compete with big cargo carriers on regular routes by straight cargo
shipping. They fill in the gaps with small cargoes, cargoes destined for
systems off the main routes, and speculation.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 07:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Wed Jun 12 06:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Imperium IMTU (long)
References: <B92BA05B.5E6F1%webmaster@travellercentral.com><001b01c211aa$cba054b0$1c577b83@Gideon> <m3n0u1ysm5.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <001401c21214$aa3c0020$1c577b83@Gideon>

<quote>

> "Anthony Colosetti" <acoloset@kent.edu> writes:
> >
> > I'm going to bring up a point here I feel very strongly about.  To
> > have an empire you must have a cultural identity.
>
> Isn't that the reverse of the normal definition, which is that an
> empire is a collection of varying cultures and languages bound
> together politically?  Thus Austria-Hungary was an empire, Rome was an
> empire, Holy Russia was an empire (as was Communist Russia), but the
> US is not an empire (well, unless you count Puerto Rico, Guam and
> Hawaii).

> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>

</quote>
Oxford English Dictionary

  1. Supreme and extensive political dominion; esp. that exercised by an
'emperor' or by a sovereign state over its dependencies.

No mention of varying cultures in any of the other points in OED
either...anyway your example of Rome lends to my point.  Where Rome ruled
there were local nobles who had been taken away and raised in Roman
tradition and then returned home.  These indoctrinated nobles considered
themselves Romans.  It was then up to the noble to indoctrinate his people,
if he was not successful then the Legions were sent in and the province was
crushed.  Peoples close to Rome after years of ties became very loyal to the
Emperors and it was only on the frontiers where there was more dissidents.

Obtrav - What better place to stage adventures then the Spinward Marches
(Rome's Britain) or the Solomani Rim (Rome's Middle East) where a noble's
loyalty may not be all that assured an the indoctrination of the empire has
not completely taken root. <smile>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 07:27:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jun 12 06:27:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <20611.142916.1U0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <m3vg8qyn6s.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3D07F486.1732.A5D15B@localhost>

On 11 Jun 2002, at 14:29, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> AU and Parsecs are neither metric *nor* "US". 

> And the parsec is *based* on the size of the AU. As I recall, it's
> something like:

IIRC one AU is the mean distance of the Earth from the Sun and a 
Parsec is a Parallax Second. So they are related, but not 
deliberately

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 07:28:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jun 12 06:28:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <3d073e60.31126392@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <003101c21163$3682c710$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <3D07F486.29964.A5D165@localhost>

On 11 Jun 2002, at 18:40, Stephen Tempest wrote:

> In a way, "A4" is also a named measurement of area (297mm by 210mm)...
> This one is used in normal conversation (as in "It's about the size of
> two sheets of A4").

A4 is the forth division of a one meter square golden rectangle (ie a 
golden rectange 1/16th of a square meter)

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 07:29:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jun 12 06:29:32 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]
In-Reply-To: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPEEANDNAA.max200@lanset.com>
References: <F194AY1RfKYglKJ9Nb60001b919@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D07F486.31281.A5D15B@localhost>

On 11 Jun 2002, at 21:22, Maksim-Smelchak wrote:

> Larsen,

> POLITICAL DISCLAIMER:
> Please don't read this E-mail if you disdain political opinions.

Please don't send it to a non-political list if you don't want people to 
react to it.

BTW I didn't bother to read the rest of the post, but this is just a 
red rag to various bulls around here.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 07:30:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jun 12 06:30:17 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEMLEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20611.154844.4F5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3D07F486.27281.A5D165@localhost>

On 11 Jun 2002, at 21:29, Terry Carlino wrote:

> >Newtonian physics is TL *3*. And it still works perfectly well as
> >long as you avoid relativistic velocities, scales where quantum
> >effects are important and insanely huge gravity fields.

> But at TL3 only a handful of people knew about Newtonian Physics.

Newtonian Physics was the basis of the engineering revolution in 
the 18th and 19th centuries and as such was fairly well known.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 08:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Jun 12 07:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Crew Hits
Message-ID: <3D0755C2.3FC1CFEA@mail.cswnet.com>

Definition:

Crew Hits: the number of drinks it takes to fully incapacitate  starship
personnel on liberty.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
"We do not have a town drunk on Arba. We all take turns."
--sign at local Brubeck's

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 08:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Jun 12 07:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEHAHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPEEANDNAA.max200@lanset.com>
Message-ID: <3D0800E1.18471.D6154A@localhost>

On 12 Jun 2002, at 20:30, Frank Pitt wrote:

> Luddism is also completely survival, and does not require the
> support of another culture, as it merely advocates a return to a
> certain level of technology, at which people survived for
> centries prior to the Industrial Revolution. Almost 70% of the
> worlds population _still_ survive at this level of technology or
> below.

Contary to popular belief Luddism had nothing to do with "destroying" or 
"rejecting" technology. I won't go into a lengthy explaination, but its far 
better to view the Luddites as an early form of trade unionism or industrial 
workers movement. Their basic premise was not that technology should be 
rejected, simply that the workers involved should also share in the benefits 
from the increased productivity and those who made redundant should be 
compensated and retrained.

ObTrav: The Luddite movement makes a facinating study in both the 
degree of "spin" available when you control the media in a society and in 
the early growth and reaction to modern workers (and socialist) movements


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 08:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn wilson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 07:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]
Message-ID: <F35iMuWQU8sKTVbR7j70001dd70@hotmail.com>

>From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

>Subject: RE: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]

>However, any culture which fails to "Clean up it's act" will
>eventually die in it's own pollutants.


Not supported.  There aren't any examples of human cultures failing thusly.






>I am unfamiliar with High Church Environmentalism, but plain old
>ordinary environmentalism of the sort practiced by reasonable
>people the world over, such as the recycling of plastic waste,


The vast majority of 'recycling' projects serve no purpose but to make 
people feel better because they're deluded into thinking it 'helps' the 
environment.  They do *not* actually conserve resources.  It takes more 
resources to 'recycle' paper and plastic than it does to make new paper and 
plastic from raw materials.  The only exception I know of is aluminum, which 
*is* cheaper to recycle than to make from scratch.
The easy rule of thumb for whether recycling is actually environmentally 
efficient is whether the recycler will pay you for the inputs.


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 08:42:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Jun 12 07:42:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <m3adq1yrkk.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEMFEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
 <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEMFEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020612072212.009f8140@mindspring.com>

At 11:49 PM 6/11/02 -0600, you wrote:

>I don't see that.  According to GT, low passage is 1,000Cr per jump
>(the GT Cr is equal to the GURPS dollar, which is really a mid-80s
>dollar, so let's say it's about $900).  Even middle passage is 8,000Cr
>per jump (let's say $7,200 per jump).  The median household income in
>the US is supposed to be something like $45,000 right now; after taxes
>that's really $30,000.  This means that low passage for an average
>family is $3,600--about the same amount many folks spend on TVs and
>vacations.  Middle passage for them all would come to som
>$28,800--almost a year's wages.

Which makes an interstellar voyage a once in a lifetime event for most 
people. Unless someone else is footing the bill.

>So most folks are likely to choose low passage, but even middle
>passage is not out of the question, considering that it's slightly
>less than the average New York wedding
><http://www.ivillage.com/relationships/weddings/articles/0,,89536,00.html>.

Gah.  My wedding was much cheaper than that.  What we paid wouldn't have 
lifted our cake into LEO.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 08:42:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Jun 12 07:42:44 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine
In-Reply-To: <20020612112447.553b115c.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <3D0622D9.C6795448@berka.com>
 <3D0622D9.C6795448@berka.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020612072444.009fcec0@mindspring.com>

At 11:24 AM 6/12/02 +0200, you wrote:
>  Just for fun, there is now a
>  LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine at my site at URL:
>  http://zho.berka.com/goodies/lbb_render.html

This is way too much fun.

I'll be posting a few of my covers to my Live Journal over the next few days.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 09:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Huxton)
Date: Wed Jun 12 08:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]
In-Reply-To: <F35iMuWQU8sKTVbR7j70001dd70@hotmail.com>
References: <F35iMuWQU8sKTVbR7j70001dd70@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <200206121620.00777.richardh@archonet.com>

On Wednesday 12 Jun 2002 3:39 pm, Shawn wilson wrote:
> From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
> >However, any culture which fails to "Clean up it's act" will
> >eventually die in it's own pollutants.
>
> Not supported.  There aren't any examples of human cultures failing thu=
sly.

Plenty of examples of intensive irrigation rendering farmland unusable. L=
ots=20
of evidence of societies operating at the limit of their environment that=
=20
failed/dispersed when the environment shifted slightly.

All these things tend to be wrapped up with social conditions/power=20
structures. Good related example is the Irish Potato Famine - monoculture=
=20
subsistence farming complicated by poor social support.

> The vast majority of 'recycling' projects serve no purpose but to make
> people feel better because they're deluded into thinking it 'helps' the
> environment.  They do *not* actually conserve resources.  It takes more
> resources to 'recycle' paper and plastic than it does to make new paper=
 and
> plastic from raw materials.  The only exception I know of is aluminum,
> which *is* cheaper to recycle than to make from scratch.

Yep, but see below.

> The easy rule of thumb for whether recycling is actually environmentall=
y
> efficient is whether the recycler will pay you for the inputs.

Nope, disagree - the rule of thumb is whether the complete lifecycle of=20
product, packaging, shipping, operating and disposal/recycling works out=20
cheaper one way or the other. The costs of disposal tend to be socialised=
 via=20
taxpayers so gets left out of the loop. Ireland recently introduced a sma=
ll=20
tax on plastic shopping bags and made supermarkets charge the customers.=20
Result - a huge drop in the number of bags used since people recycle them=
 by=20
sticking a few in their pocket.

The European Union has been moving to make producers of major appliances=20
responsible for their disposal/recycling (we're running out of landfill s=
pace=20
over here). The manufacturers are screaming blue murder on the grounds th=
at=20
it's going to cost them a fortune. My attitude is it's going to cost=20
*someone* a fortune, so it might as well be the producer since they can p=
ass=20
it on directly to their consumers.

- Richard Huxton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 09:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Jun 12 08:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]
In-Reply-To: <F261rk3lvP0tnUgYEXW000196fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D081449.4781.121E31F@localhost>

On 12 Jun 2002, at 6:03, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> From: "Maksim-Smelchak" <max200@lanset.com>

>      "Please don't read this E-mail if you disdain political opinions."

>      I do not disdain political opinions, in fact I welcome them in their
> place.  The TML is not the place for them.  I probably broke one of my own
> prohibitions with regards to flame bait when I responded to Mr. Bradley's
> original post.
>      May I congratulate you for contacting me directly instead via the TML? 
> You showed far better sense than I.

Please, there are a wide variety of shades of political opinion here and 
doubtless some (such as myself) will hold vastly different positions on both 
topics. May I suggest you follow your own advice.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 09:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Wed Jun 12 08:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
References: <F1689wPiyAphwFutJLt0001b892@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c2122a$300bc7c0$6700a8c0@imogen>

Mr Whipsnade wrote:
> Which brings us back to my original supposition; that the OTU is
> in all actuality a specialized subset of the core Traveller rules.
> The OTU bears a similar relationship with CT as GURPS:WW2 does
> with Basic GURPS.  Just as G:WW2 ignores Basic GURPS rules like
> psionics and magic and just as G:WW2 requires addendums like
> specialized charecter templates, the OTU needs to ignore some CT
> rules and requires other, additional special rules.
> The fact that the two, the OTU and CT, "grew up" together blinds
> us to this.  The OTU is a specialized SUBSET of CT.  The OTU
> requires specific changes to CT canon in order to work or even
> be explained.

Yes, I begin to see what you mean ... but in the  case  of  trade
codes being determined by simple UPP/UWP stat  analysis  I  still
think that's evidence of a flaw in CT rather than evidence of OTU
being a subset of CT.  Despite that  I  tentatively  accept  your
premis.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 09:58:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Wed Jun 12 08:58:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU setting
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206112226470.9214-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <001001c2122a$3099afe0$6700a8c0@imogen>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> >There don't need to be transients coming to Pixie except in the
> >sense that the 90 inhabitants rarely stay there longer than a
> >decade, and more often only a couple of years.
> 
> That's the kind of people *I* would count as transients. Just
> what is it about the 90 miners that made the Scouts count them
> as residents? Why not either list the resident population as
> zero or estimate the average transient population of 4,000 (or
> whatever)?

I don't know the IGS criteria in this matter but  I  would  count
these  as  transients  also.  Perhaps  the  miners  are  actually
isolationists and/or survivalists of some kind who moved to Pixie
permanently (or atleast indefinately) ... and they only mine as a
way of buying essential supplies.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 09:59:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Wed Jun 12 08:59:35 2002
Subject: cell phones (was Re: [TML] VRF Shotgun?)
References: <111.138d39a3.2a380090@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001201c2122a$317b8460$6700a8c0@imogen>

LKW wrote:
> I once saw a dog relieve itself on an electrified fence. I used
> to laugh at the memory, until the day I discovered that it is
> possible to discharge static electricity through a stream of
> urine.

In the UK there are about  a  dozen  fatalities  each  year  from
something similar on the public  rail  system.  Apparently,  late
night drinkers returning home will, while waiting  for  a  train,
urinate off the platform edge onto the tracks ... forgetting that
in many places these tracks are electrified!

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 10:00:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Wed Jun 12 09:00:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab Whanga-VERY rough draft
References: <sd063342.029@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <001101c2122a$30fe6520$6700a8c0@imogen>

Jeff D. Greenly wrote:
> This is an initial draft and some rough notes on my development of the
> Whanga system. I am especially interested in the opinions/comments of
> those of you who are more scientifically minded, as I am on shaky ground
> in that arena. As soon as this becomes a bit more refined, I will be
> posting it to my website.

A nice start.  But if I may suggest: with a population of just 28
it might be more appropriate to list and describe them (perhaps a
short paragraph each) rather than  talk  of  Whangan  society  in
general terms.  The internal structure of  each  family  and  the
interfamily politics could  have  a  significant  impact  on  how
visiting Travellers interact with them.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 10:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Wed Jun 12 09:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Weird email
References: <B92BA05B.5E6F1%webmaster@travellercentral.com><001b01c211aa$cba054b0$1c577b83@Gideon> <m3n0u1ysm5.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <000201c2122b$d8a85780$6700a8c0@imogen>

Did anyone else just get a weird email from "tml-request"  called
"NORESIZE BORDER" and containing 2 attachments  (an  html  and  a
program called "2000.exe") ... the  properties  say  it  is  from
tml-request@travelle ?????  What is it?



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 10:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Jun 12 09:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20612.003730.7M2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B92CC126.5EBA4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/12/02 1:37 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

> Sure. But you can grow grapes *lots* of places. But you don't get fine
> wines from most of them. And the ones you do get taste different.
> 
> Likewise, the conniseurs(sp?) can tell the difference between Pacific
> and Atlantic oysters.
> 
> Your high tech aquaculture may *not* produce lobsters that taste the
> same. Not without investing a *lot* extra in duplicating "minor"
> details of the home environment.

So you are limiting your customers to those who can make a distinction and
will pay for it.  What happens when the economy takes a dip?  You may still
need your high-tech gizmos, but they may not want those wines or lobsters,
which are just luxury items.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 10:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Jun 12 09:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crew hits
In-Reply-To: <20020612125914.34069.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B92CC271.5EBA5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/12/02 5:59 AM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> A long  while back (about 8 months maybe.)I asked a
> question about crew hits. I was new to the list and
> didn't know anything about anyone. Someone gave me a
> link to his site that contained rules for crew hits
> and other things. I saved the site to favorite places,
> but my hardrive has been reformatted twice since then.
> It looked like a really good site.
> Any help would be appreciated.
> thanks.

I wrote a set of rules that included crew hits way back in 1980.  It's
posted on my website, but no attempt has been made to bring it up to date.
It's base on the 1980 High Guard rules.

See http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, Advanced Small Ship
Combat.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 10:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Wed Jun 12 09:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Weird email
In-Reply-To: <000201c2122b$d8a85780$6700a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <B92CC358.5EBAB%listmom@travellercentral.com>

on 6/12/02 9:08 AM, Peter L.S. Trevor at ptrevor@rctrevor.com wrote:

> Did anyone else just get a weird email from "tml-request"  called
> "NORESIZE BORDER" and containing 2 attachments  (an  html  and  a
> program called "2000.exe") ... the  properties  say  it  is  from
> tml-request@travelle ?????  What is it?

Please forward a copy to me.  Nothing like that should be sent out by the
system.  Sounds like someone is spoofing my address.  The list server
shouldn't be allowing any attachments.

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 10:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 09:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
References: <20020612010350.50E9527C0E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D0775F6.2080904@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Bruce, I agree with you, but if passenger fares are cheap, and freight
> rates are cheap, then both ship prices and
> operating expenses better be really cheap, or nobody's going to make
> any money.  So, if you argue for inexpensive
> passenger and freight service, you also have to argue for cheap
> starships, lower salaries, and lower operating expenses.

What, the economic model of the OTU is <gasp> *broken*??!!! <swoons> ;-)

Yeah...ships need to be cheaper, particularly used ones. Here is where 
the longevity of OTU ships comes into play...a 30-40 year old ship 
should be *vastly* cheaper to run than a new one, since it's been pretty 
well amortized out, and since we have evidence that ships are generally 
kept in service for 100 years (or more) there's got to be a lot of cheap 
iron out there in the spacelanes.

> OTOH, there just *might* be a ruthless price control system in the
> Imperium.  Freight rates are pegged low...trade is good, passenger
> rates are pegged very high...free movement by the masses is bad.  Does
> that fit anybody's conception of a static empire ruled by an
> hereditary oligarchy?

Yeah, if that's the case, just toss it all out the window, since it's 
not supposed to make sense.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 10:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed Jun 12 09:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Data security...
Message-ID: <F242yXu1p2fXuGwSGQt00006629@hotmail.com>

gentles,

The British government is increasing the number of groups allowed to 
"request" (ie demand) access to personal email in the UK (all in the name of 
"increased security", of course) - soon local authorities, the Health and 
Safety Executive, the Financial Services Authority, the Environment Agency, 
the Office of Fair Trading and the Postal Service (plus any new startup 
postal services) will be able to get access to any and all personal 
communications here in this sceptic isle.

Which got me thinking (always a dangerous occurence); what do you (or your 
players, if you are a GM/ref/whatever you call it) do when you land on a 
world where every communication you make is available to anyone who asks?  
All in the ame of 'Security', of course...

Jeff (the Unique.  Still.)

ps I am half-expecting some of us to get visits from strange men in suits 
asking 'politely' why we have not yet turned ourselves in as Enemies Of The 
State...  Mind you, I'm safe.  I haven't mentioned Heavy Weapons, blowing 
things up or attacking anybody for some time now...  Oh bugger.

"Forget the many steps to heaven, it ain't never happened and it ain't so 
hard..."

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 10:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 09:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]
References: <F35iMuWQU8sKTVbR7j70001dd70@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D0776E3.4030609@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Shawn wilson wrote:

>> However, any culture which fails to "Clean up it's act" will
>> eventually die in it's own pollutants.
> 
> 
> 
> Not supported.  There aren't any examples of human cultures failing thusly.
> 
> 

LOL! Go look up what happened to the Maya.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 10:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Wed Jun 12 09:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
References: <20020612133210.AEA0727C0A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D07767A.A281D6C5@ameritech.net>


> Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 03:12:45 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@ping.iii.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com

> David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
> >>
> >> While this is possible, I suspect it's very unlikely, because the
> >> required capital investment per person is unreasonably high.  Just
> >> because something _can_ be done doesn't mean it _will_ be done.
> >
> >Actually if you assume cheap energy and plentifull raw materials the
> >only capital outly is for the first robot factory.
> 
> Which, since Traveller has no cheap VNs, nor does it have universal
> factories, probably costs on the order of a trillion credits if you
> want it fully self-upgrading and self-maintaining.

This is a one time only cost. After the first robot factory goes in the
rest are effectively free. It's a possitive feedback loop. The more you
build the greater your capacity to build more. The limits are energy
(and Traveller fusion is as close to free as makes no difference) and
materials (which given thrusters are freely available for the taking.)

> 
> Remember, robots aren't magical.  

They don't have to be. Effective fusion + available materials + robotic
construction = free capital goods.

> but labor costs may really not be the limiting
> factor on economic growth, 

Supply and demand are coequal as the primary limiting factors on
economic growth. Given virtually unlimited supply (robotic production
for instance) the only limiting factor then becomnes demand. At what
point do people have enough effectively free stuff.

> in which case robotic factories really
> won't expand much faster than conventional factories; depending on the
> cost of robotics, they may in fact expand slower.

But the robots (and I'm talking about robotic capabilities now possible
not necesarily future tech) given plentifull materials and cheap power -
both available to the Traveller setting - become vanishingly close to
free. 

> And time.  Given that free traders (a high risk business) gets an
> interest rate of 6%, the return on investment for lower risk goods
> (production of infrastructure) is likely quite low.  

And this is relevant how? Surely robotic production wouldn't take more
time than non-robotic construction. If nothing else it surely takes less
time to put together a Mark XXIII expert system spot welder than to grow
and train a human for the same job. Another savings for robotic
manufacture.

> In the past thousand
> years, the GNP of of the Imperium can be estimated to have increased by
> about three orders of magnitude. 

Where did you get that number? Extrapolated from the mortgage price from
Book 2? 

> That may be moderately close to the
> possible growth rate.  I'd actually suspect that under the right
> circumstances, an order of magnitude per century is closer to the limit,
> but there's no real reason to assume that faster growth is possible.

But no reason not to assume that faster growth isn't possible either. 
You just have to look at what is possible given stated technological
capabilities to see that for some reason the 3I has deliberately avoided
a robotic economy. Perhaps because with only a small fraction of the
population engaged in anything like work it becomes harder to maintain
the kind of power structures that keep emperors on the throne.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 10:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Jun 12 09:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Data security...
Message-ID: <200206121637.IHP03885@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Jeff Rowse" says
<snip stuff about the British Government reading your email>

Well, here in the US, it looks like the FBI can subscribe to 
the digest here, without a warrant.  The list is technically 
a public place (i.e., open to the public).  They also have 
that email filter (Carnivore, or whatever they're going to 
call it now).

Also, the NSA has been reading your email for years.  Not 
just American email, but overseas email as well.  

It's probably not possible to look at all electromagnetic 
traffic, but it's probably possible to track a significant 
amount of "traffic of interest".
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 10:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Wed Jun 12 09:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <m3adq1yrkk.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIENHEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> What I'm getting at is that if you aren't rich or in the military or a
>> member of one of the space shipping professions you will not be able to
>> travel out of your own system unless you're emigrating somewhere on a one
>> way trip.
>
>I don't see that.  According to GT, low passage is 1,000Cr per jump
>(the GT Cr is equal to the GURPS dollar, which is really a mid-80s
>dollar, so let's say it's about $900).  Even middle passage is 8,000Cr
>per jump (let's say $7,200 per jump).  The median household income in
>the US is supposed to be something like $45,000 right now; after taxes
>that's really $30,000.  This means that low passage for an average
>family is $3,600--about the same amount many folks spend on TVs and
>vacations.  Middle passage for them all would come to som
>$28,800--almost a year's wages.
>
>So most folks are likely to choose low passage, but even middle
>passage is not out of the question, considering that it's slightly
>less than the average New York wedding
><http://www.ivillage.com/relationships/weddings/articles/0,,89536,00.html>.
>
According to GT:FT an average crewmen makes about CR1,000 per month. An
officer makes from Cr1,500 to Cr2,000 per month. GT lists starship officer
among the comfortable job category, along with lawyer, engineer and Doctor.
Star ship officer is on the low end, doctor on the high end. Crew persons
are paid at the average job rate. This makes the median Imperium household
income more like Cr12,000 a year. Since the 3I doesn't have income taxes go
ahead and count the full amount. (I typically figure that most worlds use a
value added tax that's already added to the price of goods, like buying gas
in the U.S., where the tax is included in the listed price.)

How many people are going to want to Travel a single jump? That takes you
one system up a main. For the vast majority of Americans a vacation costing
more than a couple of hundred bucks is a once in a lifetime kind of thing.
One reason why the vast majority of people taking cruises are young elderly
couples from the upper middle class. These are people just past retirement
who have saved their whole life to take this cruise, and have a regular
retirement income from a very good job, one of the ones listed in the
comfortable job category.

As for your wedding link. That's for overindulgent members of the yuppie
class. Most people in I know, and I suspect the vast majority of Americans,
plop down $20( or perhaps $100) at the justice of the peace or local
courthouse and head off to nice restaurant before heading home.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 10:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Wed Jun 12 09:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
References: <20020612081006.2D5CD27B91@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D077BEF.F24CFAC1@ameritech.net>



> Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:26:14 +1000
> From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

> David Shayne wrote:
> > Actually if you assume cheap energy and plentifull raw materials the
> > only capital outly is for the first robot factory. After that
> > capital, labor, and materials functionally provide themselves.
> 
> For that, the AI capability needs to be sufficient to handle any
> problem that might crop up anywhere in all stages of production,
> including unforeseen situations. 

Only on planets like Sabmiqys where there are no sophonts to provide
oversight.

> Otherwise you need expert human
> labour to diagnose and fix problems, and more labour to instruct the
> AI how to deal with it in the future.

Which is also needed in non robotic production. The saving with robotics
is not having to pay for a decision maker for jobs that don't require
decision making. It doesn't take a particularly elaborate expert system
to ask, "Do you want fries with that?" And more elaborate decision
making is well within present day capabilities. 

<snip>

> Diagnosing and
> dealing with such situations may cost many require human labour
> costing many millions of credits per occurrence.

Or not. Every problem that gets diagnosed and fixed gets added to the
knowledge base of the factory AI so problems requiring sophont
intervention become less frequent as time goes by.
 
> 
> > The question becomes - given the technical capabilities of the
> >Imperium - why isn't every world's production given over to full
> >scale robotic manufacturing?
> 
> Traveller's AI isn't good enough -- or just not trusted enough.

That is one possible explanation. Though You can get most of waht I'm 
talking about done with the kinds of AI currently available. Add in the
bleeding edge TL 15 and humans should be economically unnecesary except
as consumers (already our most important economic function - at least in
the US)

> 
> (Ick, can you imagine what a long-lived strain of TNE Virus would do
> with the capability for completely human-free TTL F self-replicating
> civilization? 

I sure can. On the other hand I can also visualize a more benign
partnership of equals. Robots that provide and sophonts to consume. The
two necesary elements of economic interaction resting with the segments
of society best capable of performing those tasks.

True it aint Traveller but it is possible given Traveller tech
assumptions.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 10:54:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 09:54:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20020612121703.A26964@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023900811.5137.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > There seems to be some sort of regulation on legal cabin sizes,
> > since the maximum occupancy of cabins is 2 people in a 4 dton cabin,
> > which is rather low.
> 
> No, it's 2 people per unit of cabin *space*, which includes corridors,
> galleys, bathrooms, dining areas and the behind-the-scenes equipment
> required to support it all.  The cabin itself takes up a relatively
> small fraction of its allocated space.

I think it's specified as being about half.  In any case, that's still low;
assuming a stateroom is only 1 dton of internal volume (an 8' cube) it's
certainly possible (if uncomfortable) to fit 6 people in there.  Put bunks in
cargo space, and you can fit 4 people per dton with room left over for some
minimal shared space.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 11:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 10:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <3D07767A.A281D6C5@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023901399.5566.ajackson@ping>

David Shayne writes:

> 
> This is a one time only cost. After the first robot factory goes in the
> rest are effectively free.

Not really.  There's a time cost; if it takes the first robot factory 50 years
to build the second, during which time it _could_ be building other stuff
instead, expanding your capacity is hardly free.

> build the greater your capacity to build more. The limits are energy
> (and Traveller fusion is as close to free as makes no difference) and
> materials (which given thrusters are freely available for the taking.)

First of all, traveller fusion is not effectively free given the things
Traveller has to use energy on.  Secondly, energy and materials aren't the only
limits on production; the third limit is raw production capability (i.e. what,
in theory, do you have the ability to produce).  You can, to some degree, trade
off between these things, but there _is_ a limit to production.
> 
> > 
> > Remember, robots aren't magical.  
> 
> They don't have to be. Effective fusion + available materials + robotic
> construction = free capital goods.

Only in a universe where robots are magical.
> 
> > but labor costs may really not be the limiting
> > factor on economic growth, 
> 
> Supply and demand are coequal as the primary limiting factors on
> economic growth. Given virtually unlimited supply (robotic production
> for instance) the only limiting factor then becomnes demand.

Except that robotic production is not magical, and doesn't give virtually
unlimited supply.

> And this is relevant how? Surely robotic production wouldn't take more
> time than non-robotic construction.

Since you need to build robots as well as all other material components, it
may.

> Where did you get that number? Extrapolated from the mortgage price from
> Book 2? 

Extrapolated from the population and TL growth of the Imperium.

> 
> But no reason not to assume that faster growth isn't possible either. 
Other than the fact that it hasn't occurred.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 11:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 10:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <20612.021345.9m3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023901832.6966.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:
> 
> Being able to *see* thru the glass isn't necessary. 

It's often helpful.
> 
> I suspect that it'd be more practical to put the farms under several
> meters of rock, and use artifical light, powered by solar generators. 

Well, for shielding reasons that's somewhat true, but another option is to use
mirrors to send the light through ducts (the penetrating radiation will
generally not reflect) and direct the sunlight in that way, eventually passing
through glass.  This is particularly easy if the world is tidelocked, which it
might be, and is going to be about two orders of magnitude more efficient than
TL 4 solar power plus TL 4 artificial light.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 11:11:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 10:11:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Weird email
References: <B92BA05B.5E6F1%webmaster@travellercentral.com><001b01c211aa$cba054b0$1c577b83@Gideon> <m3n0u1ysm5.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <000201c2122b$d8a85780$6700a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <3D07809E.1090600@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:
> Did anyone else just get a weird email from "tml-request"  called
> "NORESIZE BORDER" and containing 2 attachments  (an  html  and  a
> program called "2000.exe") ... the  properties  say  it  is  from
> tml-request@travelle ?????  What is it?

Was the attachment was about 120-130K in size? Welcome to the Klez 
virus...where have you *been* the last 3 months???

<http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.klez.e@mm.html>

It spoofs the *from* address in these mails; what it means is that 
someone with 'tml-request@travelle' as an e-mail address in their 
Outlook address book, as well as yours is infected with the thing.

This virus has exhibited particular resilience; most viruses display 
common epidemic patterns, a large flare-up of infections, then a rapid 
diminishing of virus e-mails as hosts gain immunity or die.

Klez, despite effective AV treatment (the AV software I use on my PC, 
Sophos, has protected against it since *last* June, when the *first* 
variant came out), seems to have settled into a rather high rate of 
chronic infection. We're seeing about 5-20 per week here, just between 
our personal and webmaster addresses. I know our users are getting 'em too.

I'll spare the list my 'monocultures are more susceptible to raging 
epidemics' lecture. :-(

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 11:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Wed Jun 12 10:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #608 - 23 msgs
Message-ID: <sd0749af.037@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to 
consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to 
properly handle MIME multipart messages.

--=_2C701BFF.F594EA4E
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Peter (and fellow listers),
 
Thank you for your comments and your excellent suggestion! I must
admit, I hadn't looked at it in quite that light, but now that you point
it out, individual comments on the population members make so much
sense! Just a thought: would anyone on the list like to volunteer to
roll a six-to-eight member family and do a brief write-up? I would love
to include some other people's ideas, as that will make Whanga's
demographic that much more multi-dimensional in scope. 
 
Jeff
 
Message: 13
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Landgrab Whanga-VERY rough draft
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:50:59 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com 
 
Jeff D. Greenly wrote:
> This is an initial draft and some rough notes on my development of
the
> Whanga system. I am especially interested in the opinions/comments
of
> those of you who are more scientifically minded, as I am on shaky
ground
> in that arena. As soon as this becomes a bit more refined, I will be
> posting it to my website.
 
A nice start.  But if I may suggest: with a population of just 28
it might be more appropriate to list and describe them (perhaps a
short paragraph each) rather than  talk  of  Whangan  society  in
general terms.  The internal structure of  each  family  and  the
interfamily politics could  have  a  significant  impact  on  how
visiting Travellers interact with them.
 
Regards PLST
 
 
 

 

--=_2C701BFF.F594EA4E
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Description: HTML

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style="MARGIN-TOP: 2px; FONT: 10pt MS Sans Serif; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px">
<DIV>Dear Peter (and fellow listers),</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Thank you for your comments and your&nbsp;excellent suggestion! I must 
admit, I hadn't looked at it in quite that light, but now that you point it out, 
individual comments on the population members make so much sense! Just a 
thought: would anyone on the list like to volunteer to roll a six-to-eight 
member family and do a brief write-up? I would love to include some other 
people's ideas, as that will make&nbsp;Whanga's demographic&nbsp;that much more 
multi-dimensional in scope. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jeff</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Message: 13<BR>From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" &lt;<A 
href="mailto:ptrevor@rctrevor.com">ptrevor@rctrevor.com</A>&gt;<BR>To: &lt;<A 
href="mailto:tml@travellercentral.com">tml@travellercentral.com</A>&gt;<BR>Subject: 
Re: [TML] Landgrab Whanga-VERY rough draft<BR>Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:50:59 
+0100<BR>Reply-To: <A 
href="mailto:tml@travellercentral.com">tml@travellercentral.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jeff D. Greenly wrote:<BR>&gt; This is an initial draft and some rough 
notes on my development of the<BR>&gt; Whanga system. I am especially interested 
in the opinions/comments of<BR>&gt; those of you who are more scientifically 
minded, as I am on shaky ground<BR>&gt; in that arena. As soon as this becomes a 
bit more refined, I will be<BR>&gt; posting it to my website.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A nice start.&nbsp; But if I may suggest: with a population of just 
28<BR>it might be more appropriate to list and describe them (perhaps a<BR>short 
paragraph each) rather than&nbsp; talk&nbsp; of&nbsp; Whangan&nbsp; 
society&nbsp; in<BR>general terms.&nbsp; The internal structure of&nbsp; 
each&nbsp; family&nbsp; and&nbsp; the<BR>interfamily politics could&nbsp; 
have&nbsp; a&nbsp; significant&nbsp; impact&nbsp; on&nbsp; how<BR>visiting 
Travellers interact with them.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Regards PLST</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

--=_2C701BFF.F594EA4E--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 11:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 10:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Klez is out there
In-Reply-To: <sd0749af.037@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023902763.495.ajackson@ping>

Got a Klez message claiming to come from rob prior (actually comes from some
mystery AOL user), so I suspect someone on the list is infected.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 11:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Jun 12 10:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Data security...
In-Reply-To: <F242yXu1p2fXuGwSGQt00006629@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B92CD5B1.5EBCC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/12/02 9:26 AM, Jeff Rowse at jeffrowse@hotmail.com wrote:

> gentles,
> 
> The British government is increasing the number of groups allowed to
> "request" (ie demand) access to personal email in the UK (all in the name of
> "increased security", of course) - soon local authorities, the Health and
> Safety Executive, the Financial Services Authority, the Environment Agency,
> the Office of Fair Trading and the Postal Service (plus any new startup
> postal services) will be able to get access to any and all personal
> communications here in this sceptic isle.
> 
> Which got me thinking (always a dangerous occurence); what do you (or your
> players, if you are a GM/ref/whatever you call it) do when you land on a
> world where every communication you make is available to anyone who asks?
> All in the ame of 'Security', of course...

Just out of curiosity, what are the laws regarding encryption technologies
like PGP?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 11:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Jun 12 10:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Am apology (was: Cuba analogy)
Message-ID: <F218jnXY0vYqP5vJbZx0001ca4e@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Please accept my my most heartfelt apologies.  My last message on this 
thread was not supposed to be sent to the List.  Unfortunately, I am an 
IDIOT, nothing but a complete IDIOT.
     Please forgive me for taking up your bandwidth.


     Sincerely,
     William R. Cameron, aka Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 11:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn wilson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 10:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #608 - 23 msgs
Message-ID: <F209EFZdDZw7ZCnb8Ir0001c618@hotmail.com>



>From: David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)

> > >> While this is possible, I suspect it's very unlikely, because the
> > >> required capital investment per person is unreasonably high.  Just
> > >> because something _can_ be done doesn't mean it _will_ be done.
> > >
> > >Actually if you assume cheap energy and plentifull raw materials the
> > >only capital outly is for the first robot factory.


Economics 101- AND the opportunity cost of using that first robotic factory 
to make other factories instead of salable goods, which is equal to the 
value of said salable goods, which is going to be approximately the price of 
a factory for ech factory.

There is no free lunch in economics.





>This is a one time only cost. After the first robot factory goes in the
>rest are effectively free.


Sadly, no.

>But no reason not to assume that faster growth isn't possible either.
>You just have to look at what is possible given stated technological
>capabilities to see that for some reason the 3I has deliberately avoided
>a robotic economy. Perhaps because with only a small fraction of the
>population engaged in anything like work it becomes harder to maintain
>the kind of power structures that keep emperors on the throne.


Economic growth works thusly:  existing capital stock + new investment - 
depreciation on old capital stock = next period's existing capital stock.

Depreciation is a linear funcion of existing capital in the long run (every 
period x% will wear out and have to be replaced).  The more capital you 
have, the more output you need to dedicate to keeping it operational.

Total output is of course a function of capital stock and other things 
(labor, technology, etc).  The increase in output obtained from a unit 
increase in capital falls as the capital stock increases.  (if it rose or 
stayed the same you'd get explosive (and not merely exponential) economic 
growth until it stopped doing that)

Output is thus upward sloping but concave down. Investment is a function of 
output.  Depreciation is a straight line.  Where the depreciation line cuts 
the investment line you'll find an economy's long run steady state, since 
depreciation = investment and capital accumulation falls to zero.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 11:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Jun 12 10:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]
Message-ID: <F135truO7dKxpFmrgPJ0001ce02@hotmail.com>

From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>

     "Please, there are a wide variety of shades of political opinion here 
and doubtless some (such as myself) will hold vastly different positions on 
both topics. May I suggest you follow your own advice."


Mr. Moffatt-Vallance,

     I thought I was.  :(
     In my stupidity, my post was sent to the TML.  Please ignore it.


     Sincerely,
     William R. Cameron, aka Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 12:07:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Jun 12 11:07:19 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
Message-ID: <F80xBw6ZyOMJQ9D5AnI0001dcd1@hotmail.com>

From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

     "However, any culture which fails to "Clean up it's act" will
eventually die in it's own pollutants. This is as true of humans as it is 
true of bacteria and rats."


Mr. Pitt,

     Please re-read my original post, especially the paragraph in which I 
talk about progress leading to a "greening" or "softening" of technology.
     When I used the phrase "do the dirty work", I wasn't referring to the 
release of pollutants or slamming recycling.  Instead, I was making 
reference to actually getting things done rather than engaging in navel 
gazing or wishful thinking.
     I happen to agree with every point made in your post.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 12:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Wed Jun 12 11:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <20612.021345.9m3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAENKEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>> Cracking Oxygen from Ice = TL4?
>> Requires electrical power; not sure where that is on the traveller TL
scale,
>> TL4 may be ok.  Also requires a power source which doesn't use oxygen,
which
>> means either nuclear or photovoltaic, either of which is TL 6.
>
>Nope. Photocells, *not* silicon solar cells, are late TL4. Selenium, as
>I recall.
>
>And you can build a very nice steam engine that uses solar mirrors to
>heat the boiler. In fact, that was how the early space station designs
>(1940s and 50s) planned to generate power.
>
>And nuclear is a bit odd. We didn't discover it (and the theory) until
>TL 5. But you *could* build and maintain a reactor at TL4. Maybe even
>at TL3. But you'd have to be shown how.
>
>Natural uranium makes for a poor fuel. but you can breed more fuel from
>it.
>
>> Of course, this isn't the method you'd use.  Most habitats probably
>> use plants for air, and all you need for that is the ability to build
>> large vacuum-resistant windows, which is dependent on the ability to
>> build really big sheets of tough glass
>
>You don't need *big* sheets. In fact, if it isn't so tough, there are
>good reasons for using *smaller* pieces. And while thick glass will cut
>down on the light getting thru, it won't cut down that badly. And it
>*will* cut down on the UV and other radaition getting thru.
>
>Being able to *see* thru the glass isn't necessary.
>
>I suspect that it'd be more practical to put the farms under several
>meters of rock, and use artifical light, powered by solar generators.
>
All of which goes back to my original point. In reality, the level of
knowledge possessed by the people on a world is not TL. TL F level
scientific knowledge should be available to all. The inhabitants of a TL 4
vacuum world could use TL 4 engineering and higher TL knowledge to survive
without using technology that is dependent on a higher diversity of
technologies.

Come to think of it, this may be the real measure of TL. The number of
diverse industries necessary to maintain a civilization. In Leonard's
comments we have a vacuum world civilization maintained by glass makers,
boilermakers, farmers, mechanics and such. Surely this would take a lower
number of skills than a TL8 vacuum world which would need all of the above
skills plus many more and a wider and deeper logistics base.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 12:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Wed Jun 12 11:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL Robots and the universality of greed
In-Reply-To: <F209EFZdDZw7ZCnb8Ir0001c618@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKENKEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>From: David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net>
>>Subject: Re: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
>
>> > >> While this is possible, I suspect it's very unlikely, because the
>> > >> required capital investment per person is unreasonably high.  Just
>> > >> because something _can_ be done doesn't mean it _will_ be done.
>> > >
>> > >Actually if you assume cheap energy and plentifull raw materials the
>> > >only capital outly is for the first robot factory.
>
>
>Economics 101- AND the opportunity cost of using that first robotic factory
>to make other factories instead of salable goods, which is equal to the
>value of said salable goods, which is going to be approximately the price
of
>a factory for ech factory.
>
>There is no free lunch in economics.
>
 Sure there is and it usually comes from the government, which usually means
taxpayers, which means everybody else.

The sad truth is that for many technologies processes are only cost
effective if the fabricator/manufacturer is allowed to dump their
by-products, or otherwise not deal with them. The nuclear power industry is
a prime example. Nuclear power plants are only economically viable if the
federal government subsidizes the cost of procuring fuel and the cost of
disposing of fuel. Many kinds of industry were only economically viable in
the industrial revolution, and remain so today, because workers are paid
slave wages and third world factories ignore environmental impact.

The Imperium has always struck me as that kind of place. Just about every
high TL industrial planet has a tainted atmosphere. Magacorp exploitation
and rampant capitalism is the order of the day. MyMines is considered a
responsible corporate citizen.

All this is based on the premise human greed is universal. The 3 Imperium is
certainly based on this premise. The fall of communism certainly seems to
bear out the fact that a system based on socialism, which at its heart says,
at least, that people are basically willing to think of others first,
doesn't work in the real world. Too bad.

Throwing a grenade: I'd just like to say that my opinion on the economic
model of the Federation in Star Trek is that it doesn't represent a touchy
feely socialistic society, but rather an ultra capitalistic society where
all humans are so wealthy that they just don't bother keeping track of the
small stuff any more.  Any purchase smaller than a starship or planet is
just chump change. I don't expect Bill Gates balances his checkbook either.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 12:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jun 12 11:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020612072444.009fcec0@mindspring.com>
References: <20020612112447.553b115c.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3D074F39.9398.3E6C1A@localhost>

I suggest we nominate this as one of the most enjoyable piece of 
Traveller Software.

Tim Reynolds

On 12 Jun 2002, at 7:35, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 11:24 AM 6/12/02 +0200, you wrote:
> >  Just for fun, there is now a
> >  LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine at my site at URL:
> >  http://zho.berka.com/goodies/lbb_render.html
> 
> This is way too much fun.
> 
> I'll be posting a few of my covers to my Live Journal over the next
> few days.
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
> 
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 12:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Jun 12 11:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
Message-ID: <F103WHItq6eO6wGIa1P0001dd0d@hotmail.com>

From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com>

     "Yes, I begin to see what you mean ..."


Mr. Trevor,

     Thank you, sir.

     "...but in the case of trade codes being determined by simple UPP/UWP 
stat analysis I still think that's evidence of a flaw in CT rather than 
evidence of OTU being a subset of CT."

     I'd rather go with a subset explanation than say something is "flawed" 
or "broken".  Just squeamishness I guess.
     Following the subset model, we can easily postulate a low/no trade 
universe in which trades codes and tech levels work exactly as given in CT.  
It's simply a matter of which starting suppositions we choose.

     "Despite that I tentatively accept your premise."

     Thank you, sir, that's very kind of you.  Especially now, when this 
muddle-headed, old, fat man needs some confirmation that he isn't a complete 
ASS.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen
>
>Regards PLST
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 13:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed Jun 12 12:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <F103WHItq6eO6wGIa1P0001dd0d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020612185926.708.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Especially now, when this 
> muddle-headed, old, fat man needs some confirmation
> that he isn't a complete 
> ASS.


No, Larsen, not complete.  But your ears and snout
were starting to look a little suspicious. <grin>

Paul (Who has oft required the use of the FFME*)


* - Foot From Mouth Extractor



__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 13:02:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Craig Berry)
Date: Wed Jun 12 12:02:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine
In-Reply-To: <20020612165107.47CD427AE9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0206121157040.14216-100000@hollywood.cinenet.net>

> Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:35:22 -0700
> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> This is way too much fun.
>
> I'll be posting a few of my covers to my Live Journal over the next few days.

Already have one on mine:

  http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=isomeme&itemid=28005

-- 
   |   Craig Berry - http://www.cine.net/~cberry/
 --*--  "When we have perfected ourselves and prepared ourselves
   |   for any given ordeal what we meet is always to us good,
       true and beautiful." - C. F. Russell


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 13:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Wed Jun 12 12:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crew hits
In-Reply-To: <B92CC271.5EBA5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020612191243.83850.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

> I wrote a set of rules that included crew hits way
> back in 1980.  It's
> posted on my website, but no attempt has been made
> to bring it up to date.
> It's base on the 1980 High Guard rules.
> 
> See http://www.travellercentral.com under House
> Rules, Advanced Small Ship
> Combat.
 
 That's it! thank you very much.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 13:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Jun 12 12:32:02 2002
Subject: cell phones (was Re: [TML] VRF Shotgun?)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEECLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>Don't forget the obvious -- there is a lot of historical
>precedent for rigging small arms.  I remember reading about
>hand grenades with "short" fuses, and small arms ammunition

I've read about the use of short fuse trap by US forces in Vietnam, whose
grenades were often stolen from their bases.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 13:32:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Jun 12 12:32:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: cell phones
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGECLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com>
>Subject: Re: cell phones (was Re: [TML] VRF Shotgun?)
>
>In the UK there are about  a  dozen  fatalities  each  year  from
>something similar on the public  rail  system.  Apparently,  late
>night drinkers returning home will, while waiting  for  a  train,
>urinate off the platform edge onto the tracks ... forgetting that
>in many places these tracks are electrified!

As we say in the USA, "do not touch third rail" -- and perhaps we should
add, "even with your urine."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 13:33:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Jun 12 12:33:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crew hits
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIECLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>I wrote a set of rules that included crew hits way back in 1980.  It's
>posted on my website, but no attempt has been made to bring it up to date.
>It's base on the 1980 High Guard rules.

An early JTAS has some optional High Guard rules, one of which dealt with
crew.  Rather than using the USP crew number, one divided the crew into a
number of equal sections.  Each crew hit killed one section.  The frozen
watch could be revived to replace one or maybe more lost sections.  I don't
recall how they determined how many sections a ship merited; maybe it was
the USP number.

In sort of a feedback loop, one would take advantage of that optional rule
when designing ships, so that the frozen watch was exactly however many
sections the designer thought appropriate.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 13:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Wed Jun 12 12:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Weird email
References: <B92BA05B.5E6F1%webmaster@travellercentral.com><001b01c211aa$cba054b0$1c577b83@Gideon> <m3n0u1ysm5.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <000201c2122b$d8a85780$6700a8c0@imogen> <3D07809E.1090600@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <002701c21249$23015e40$6700a8c0@imogen>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Was the attachment was about 120-130K in size? Welcome to the Klez 
> virus...where have you *been* the last 3 months???

It was a  Klez  virus!  Thanks  for  the  link.  Fortuneately  it
hadn't got  me  despite  the  fact  I  surf  naked  (i.e.  no  AV
protection).  From what I'm reading  now  Klez  exploits  an  old
vulnerability in Outlook.  I always try to be  uptodate  with  my
patches.

On the other hand thats the 2nd virus sent to me in a week.

Regards PLST





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 13:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ben Bell)
Date: Wed Jun 12 12:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Data security...
In-Reply-To: <B92CD5B1.5EBCC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <F242yXu1p2fXuGwSGQt00006629@hotmail.com>
 <B92CD5B1.5EBCC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <I+E$4YBRC5B9EwWP@bzb1.demon.co.uk>

In message <B92CD5B1.5EBCC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>, Tod Glenn 
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes
>on 6/12/02 9:26 AM, Jeff Rowse at jeffrowse@hotmail.com wrote:
>Just out of curiosity, what are the laws regarding encryption technologies
>like PGP?
>

  In which country? In the UK now you have to hand over your encryption 
key if they demand it should they think that the encrypted information 
is evidence in a crime. Failure to do so is a 2 year prison sentence.

  Mind you that isn't too bad. If you're a child pornographer and you 
have encrypted all your pictures, only getting 2 years is better than 
10.

  Of course while you are inside they may break your encryption and then 
you're in trouble.

  I have PGP, but don't use it. Yet. Am seriously starting to think about 
it though.
-- 
Ben Bell

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 13:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Wed Jun 12 12:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Intrasystem Stutterwarp
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1023911084.0.90433800@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Just out of curiosity (uh, oh)...

Has anyone ever analysed the economic and tactical/strategic effects of using 2300AD stutterwarp as a form of intra-system drive (only) for ships and missiles? As in replacing grav/thruster drives with a version of stutterwarp that's limited to in-system use?

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 13:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Jun 12 12:46:03 2002
Subject: cell phones (was Re: [TML] VRF Shotgun?)
Message-ID: <200206121944.IHV05057@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>
>I've read about the use of short fuse trap by US forces in 
>Vietnam, whose grenades were often stolen from their bases.
>
Not that hard to do.  I've seen someone unscrew the fuse 
assembly for a smoke grenade and put it into an HE grenade 
(not the M67).

Taped to a tree with a pull wire, the delay is brief, to say 
the least.

I have the feeling, though, that this sort of activity by an 
established military force, results in more "own goals" than 
it's worth.

One that I'm interested in:  they say that the US has a 
jammer that works on VT fuses.  It causes premature 
detonation.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 13:48:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Jun 12 12:48:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Data security...
Message-ID: <200206121947.IHV05667@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ben Bell says
>  I have PGP, but don't use it. Yet. Am seriously starting 
>to think about it though.
>-- 

Something to think about for RL and IYTU - even with the best 
algorithms, it's only as secure as your physical security for 
the machines involved.  Even if you were using PGP, I'm 
betting that a skilled team could get your keys if they had 
your machine and some time.

And if they have a keyboard trap, you'll just give them 
access to your keys the next time you use the PGP program.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 13:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Jun 12 12:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Intrasystem Stutterwarp
Message-ID: <200206121950.IHV06175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

David Smart asks
>Subject: [TML] Intrasystem Stutterwarp  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>Just out of curiosity (uh, oh)...
>
>Has anyone ever analysed the economic and tactical/strategic 
>effects of using 2300AD stutterwarp as a form of intra-
>system drive (only) for ships and missiles? As in replacing 
>grav/thruster drives with a version of stutterwarp that's 
>limited to in-system use?
>

Uh oh is right.  I really like stutterwarp (except that name).

If I wanted things to be simple, there would be stutterwarp 
with a maximum velocity (lightspeed) in "normal" space, and a 
jumpspace similar to the concept used in B5, including jump 
gates, travel through jumpspace, and limited combat and 
detection in jumpspace.

But then it wouldn't be Traveller, would it?
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 13:58:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sparky)
Date: Wed Jun 12 12:58:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
References: <001401c211aa$b4b15bf0$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <00be01c2124b$5e96bf20$b50fa118@upstairs>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
> Again, you are looking too close.  First most of these descriptions
> (e.g. Star Trek, Star Wars, Traveller, B5) were made before that book.
> Besides which, I am sure there is a dimension *somewhere* that will
> work like we need it to.  :-)

LOL. I look too close at all of them...So let me get this straight...it's
okay to brainwash someone into doing what you want them to do but it's not
okay to choke them into submission?!? But as you say, the magic of the
narrative can just explain it all away. And I guess that while physicists
think they know what's what, that doesn't necessarily mean they are
completely correct.

I'll try to let go and just enjoy the moment.

Sparky


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 14:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sparky)
Date: Wed Jun 12 13:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
References: <20020612012326.E213827B1C@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00bf01c2124c$482c9150$b50fa118@upstairs>

I kind of like this sort of thinking, actually. It makes a lot of sense

From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
> Back in the old days, maybe today too, most groups got together to
> play once a week, say Friday nights. Generally nothing happens in
> jumpspace, so it would be boring to play that out, so we'll let that
> take place between our weekly gaming sessions.

> ps. hint, if the Referee says "We're playing out this jump..." you
> should be thinking, "Danger! Danger! Red Alert!" --

And this explanation from Steve kind of rounds things out...
===================
Imagine a planet is suddenly threatened by an unexpected danger.  The
nearest Government base is 20 parsecs away.  If jump were
instantaneous, then a message could be sent in the morning and help
would arrive by lunchtime.  In Traveller, even the fastest Jump-Six
ship will take 4 weeks to get to the base, and the help will take
another 4 weeks to return.  Rather than wait two months for
assistance, the planetary rulers will be forced to take desperate
measures, like asking a bunch of player characters who happen to be in
town to help out...
====================

And Mr. Berry's response builds on Mike's earlier one...
====================
Ah.  Traveller shortcuts the physical universe entirely.  Our ships "jump"
into another state where they simply pop out 168 hours later at the desired
point in space.  Jump space doesn't follow the same laws as our
universe.  You wrap a little bit of our universe around yourself and spend
one week *completely* cut of from the rest of the cosmos.  None of these
nasty problems with relativity and the twin paradox.
====================

But all of that leads my thinking to one last question....based on the
reasons outlined here, is there any other pseudo-science manner that 168
hours is used? Is there some 'strange' coincidence having to do with 168
hours for X-boats, for example? That things somehow just 'work out' that
it's convenient for travel time to be 168 hours? Or any other such
'unintended' consequences in any published material?

Thanks for the answers. Maybe it wasn't such a silly question after all.

Sparky



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 14:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jun 12 13:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]
In-Reply-To: <20020612133208.9D4A827C09@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17IELs-0005e7-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>

"Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:

> Larsen Whipsnade wrote :
> > I've posted this before and will most likely post
> > it again and again; No high ascetic, touchy-feely,
> > houlier-than-thou,  society can exist without
> > contact with a real society that gets all the dirty
> > work done.
> 
> This is not true.

Agreed.
 
> I would agree that an evolving culture may have to go through a
> period during which this is true.
> 
> However, any culture which fails to "Clean up it's act" will
> eventually die in it's own pollutants. This is as true of humans
> as it is true of bacteria and rats.
> 
> As with bacteria and rats in these situations, some may survive,
> but most won't.

<much good stuff snipped>

I completely agree.  It is obvious that one of the reasons the 
Imperium does so well is that it is *far* greener than our current TL 
8 society.  Fusion doesn't produce radioactive waste or dangerous 
levels of radiation, nuclear dampers allow any radiation problems 
from other sources to be cleaned up rapidly, the Imperium has a 
hydrogen economy that uses fuel cells where it doesn't use fusion, 
so air pollution is basically nonexistent on high tech worlds.  Add 
in essentially free energy and getting rid of dangerous industrial by 
products is also easy, and orbital manufacturing can be used for 
the dirty stuff.  Given that pretty much ever TTL 10+ world (ie the 
majority of the Imperium) has this sort of technology, the Imperium 
is a far cleaner place then our Earth is now.  Even better, with TL 
14+ worlds able to do fancy genetic engineering, I'm fairly certain 
that most crop plants won't require either fertilizer or pesticides, 
since shipping high tech seed to other worlds is an excellent use of 
interstellar shipping.  

I doubt the course of our own technology will be exactly the same, 
but as you said we have two choices, clean up our act or watch 
civilization (and perhaps most human life) die off.  The planet is 
durable, life will survive anything we can do to it (short of playing 
with *large* amounts of antimatter or similarly deadly ultratech), but 
*we* might not survive the results.  The idea that environmentalism 
is only about protecting non-human animals and plants is one of 
the *stupidest* ideas ever promulgated - I'm an environmentalist 
both because I believe animals and plants should be protected and 
because I'm selfish and don't want to live in Mad Maxesque ruin.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 14:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Jun 12 13:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Just Who Is On That Ship?
Message-ID: <200206122021.IHX00279@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I've wondered if anyone else has noticed that a "typical" 
Traveller party tends to be an itinerant, well-armed, 
unemployed (well, self-employed if they have a ship), bunch 
of "foreigners" from another planet.  In all 
probability, "meddling foreigners" at the least, 
and "terrorists" at the worst.

You would think that a universe that had a lot of these 
little groups going around causing trouble would lead to 
a "profile".
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 14:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Jun 12 13:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Intrasystem Stutterwarp
In-Reply-To: <Springmail.0994.1023911084.0.90433800@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20020612204748.90664279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/12/02 at 12:44 PM,  David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net> said:

>Just out of curiosity (uh, oh)...

>Has anyone ever analysed the economic and tactical/strategic effects
>of using 2300AD stutterwarp as a form of intra-system drive (only)
>for ships and missiles? As in replacing grav/thruster drives with a
>version of stutterwarp that's limited to in-system use?

David, I don't analyse it, I run my Akus PBEM using it. <g>
Stutterjump (my version) is a STL-only version of stutterwarp used in
that universe for in-system travel. The technology is capable of
giving psuedo-velocities of up to 6,000 km/sec, though most ships make
do with 2,000 km/sec or less. Of course, because this is all
psuedo-velocity, ships also mount HEPlaR or fusion drives for vector
matching and grav lifters for close in work.  

Ships jump in and out at a "jump limit" set at 200 diameters, this
means for inner and life zone planets the star sets the limit and for
outer zone planets the star sets the limit. It takes most merchant
ships two to three days to get to and from the jump limit, and even
the fastest ships will need the better part of a day.  The rest of
jump is pretty standard.

As for space combat, which I don't deal with all that much anyway, I
inserted a weapon and sensor system (the g-laser and g-sensor) that
handles the effects of the psuedo-speed. Otherwise you have to get
right up on someone to have a chance of hitting them, which fits some
people's games just fine, but not mine. I then made meson and particle
beams fixed installation assault weapons and lasers personal combat
weapons. 


Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 14:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Jun 12 13:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Intrasystem Stutterwarp
In-Reply-To: <200206121950.IHV06175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020612205505.A91B5279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/12/02 at 03:50 PM,  "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> said:

>Uh oh is right.  I really like stutterwarp (except that name).

>If I wanted things to be simple, there would be stutterwarp  with a
>maximum velocity (lightspeed) in "normal" space, and a  jumpspace
>similar to the concept used in B5, including jump  gates, travel
>through jumpspace, and limited combat and  detection in jumpspace.

>But then it wouldn't be Traveller, would it?

Sure it would! 

Nothing you mentioned above affects the Traveller feel, as long as you
can keep the basic concept of interstellar communications limited to
the travel speed of the ships, and keep the ships slow enough, by
whatever method you want, so that it still takes weeks and months to
get a message from the frontier to the core. You could keep almost all
the other trappings of Traveller right in place without much trouble.

Eris,
    the Heretic (been a while since I used that tag in here <g>)

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 15:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Jun 12 14:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020612072212.009f8140@mindspring.com>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEMFEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
 <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEMFEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020612072212.009f8140@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3y9dki4dz.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> Which makes an interstellar voyage a once in a lifetime event for
> most people.  Unless someone else is footing the bill.

An interstellar voyage in middle passage--low is really quite
affordable.

> Gah.  My wedding was much cheaper than that.  What we paid wouldn't
> have lifted our cake into LEO.

I think that expensive weddings are stupid.  Have a nice cheap one and
use the money saved as a down payment on a house.  Utterly stupid to
throw away thousands on one day.  Well, unless one _makes_ thousands a
week, in which go for it.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Resurrexit!  Vere Resurrexit!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 15:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jun 12 14:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Just Who Is On That Ship?
Message-ID: <20020612.141809.-174357.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:21:21 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> I've wondered if anyone else has noticed that a "typical" 
> Traveller party tends to be an itinerant, well-armed, 
> unemployed (well, self-employed if they have a ship), bunch 
> of "foreigners" from another planet.  In all 
> probability, "meddling foreigners" at the least, 
> and "terrorists" at the worst.
> 
> You would think that a universe that had a lot of these 
> little groups going around causing trouble would lead to 
> a "profile".

It wouldn't be Traveller without them :~)

Profile me and my fleet . . .

Brig. Gen. Turokan

-   ....   .   .-.   .       ..   ...       -.   ---   -.   .       .-.  
---   .-..   -.--       .-   ...       -   ....   .       .-..   ---  
.-.   -..   ---...       ..-.   ---   .-.       -   ....   .   .-.   .   
   ..   ...       -.   ---   -.   .       -...   .   ...   ..   -..   .  
    -   ....   .   .   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 15:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Jun 12 14:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20612.005651.9l4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020612213245.7DC36279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/12/02 at 12:56 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
said:

>>>I don't know if this has already been answered, but a 20 ft container
>>>measures 20' length, 8' wide and height can be either 8' (default
>>>height), 8'6" or 9'6" (referred to as 'hicube'). The other standard
>>>container size is 40'length with the other dimensions the same as for
>>>the 20'. Cheers,
>>
>> Thanks Duncan.
>>
>> So, a 20' container is 1280 or 1360 or 1520 square feet,

>You mean *cubic* feet. :-)

Yeah, yeah! <g>

>> that works
>> out to  roughly 2.5, 2.7, or 3.0 dTons. The 40' container would be
>> double that, 5 to 6 dTons.

>roughly 36.25 m^3 which is 2.7 dtons (at 13.5m^3 per dton) or 2.6
>dtons at 14 m^3 per dton.

The differences in Traveller versions of a dTon, for example we have
13.5 cubic meters, 14 cubic meters and 500 cubic feet as possible
values, and the differences in height given by Duncan are why I gave
ranges.  For simplicity, we could say 3 dtons for the "20' container"
and 6 dtons for the "40' container."  The reason I was looking for
that was I had an ~$1,600 price for transporting one of the 20-foot
containers from Europe to East Asia by ship, and I wanted to a per
dton estimate. Looks like about $500/dton.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 15:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Jun 12 14:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92CC126.5EBA4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020612214310.1092F27B6C@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/12/02 at 09:13 AM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>> Your high tech aquaculture may *not* produce lobsters that taste the
>> same. Not without investing a *lot* extra in duplicating "minor"
>> details of the home environment.

>So you are limiting your customers to those who can make a
>distinction and will pay for it.  What happens when the economy takes
>a dip?  You may still need your high-tech gizmos, but they may not
>want those wines or lobsters, which are just luxury items.

Why, "hard times" happen, of course! <g>

So, what happens to Chesapeake Oystermen, Alaskan Crabbers, Maine
Lobstermen, or French Winemakers when the economy of their market
takes a dip?  They suffer.  They live off of savings and hope to
survive until the economy revives. Sometimes they don't, and have to
sell out, move, get other jobs...if they can.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 15:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Wed Jun 12 14:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Slightly OT: MEF Planners Ref Man'l......
Message-ID: <20020612214715.15859.qmail@web11003.mail.yahoo.com>

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/usmc/docs/mef99/mef_planner.htm

It must be seen to be believed.......

MACessna


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Wed Jun 12 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Slightly OT: MEF Planners Ref Man'l......
In-Reply-To: <20020612214715.15859.qmail@web11003.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020612215044.63450.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Michael Cessna <graymask1120@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/usmc/docs/mef99/mef_planner.htm
> 
> It must be seen to be believed.......
> 
> MACessna
> 
  >>
  Oops...Almost forgot: be sure to check out Part 4

  MAC
  >>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 15:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Jun 12 14:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Weird email
In-Reply-To: <3D07809E.1090600@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020612215237.776C227BDA@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/12/02 at 10:10 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>Klez, despite effective AV treatment (the AV software I use on my PC,
> Sophos, has protected against it since *last* June, when the *first*
> variant came out), seems to have settled into a rather high rate of 
>chronic infection. We're seeing about 5-20 per week here, just
>between  our personal and webmaster addresses. I know our users are
>getting 'em too.

>I'll spare the list my 'monocultures are more susceptible to raging 
>epidemics' lecture. :-(

It's true though. <g>

I'm still using an old OS/2 email client. It doesn't to fancy html or
"rich text" displays, it doesn't display pictures inline, it doesn't
automatically run scripts or programs, and it makes my deal with
attachments manually, but it works just fine, so why should I change
to something else?

I can think of several Ob Travellers, that I will leave to the
imagination of the Referee.  

Say!  How many of you say Ref/Referee and how many say GM, and can we
correlate that with your preferred version of Traveller? <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 15:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Wed Jun 12 14:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SJ Games -- New Items 6/12
Message-ID: <l03010d07b92d73fca7ad@[206.224.92.67]>

For those who care:

>Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:52:14 -0500
>Subject: [sjgames-mibs] New Items 6/12
>
>The followings items are now available and shipping from Warehouse 23:
>
>GURPS Traveller 25th Anniversary Set
>http://www.warehouse23.com/item.cgi?SJG6628
>
>Ogre Miniatures: Combine Set 10 - Fast Convoy
>http://www.warehouse23.com/item.cgi?SJG10-2110
>
>Frag Miniatures
>http://www.warehouse23.com/item.cgi?SJG16-0201
>
>
>--
>Michelle Barrett
>Warehouse 23 Manager
>Steve Jackson Games
>www.warehouse23.com

LKW



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 16:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Jun 12 15:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <3D07F486.1732.A5D15B@localhost>
References: <m3vg8qyn6s.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <20611.142916.1U0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <3D07F486.1732.A5D15B@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020613080709.A29266@freeman.little-possums.net>

a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz wrote:
> IIRC one AU is the mean distance of the Earth from the Sun and a 
> Parsec is a Parallax Second. So they are related, but not 
> deliberately

The parsec is indeed a 'parallax second'.  In fact, the distance at
which the parallax of a star is one arcsecond as Earth moves around
its orbit (a radius of 1 AU).

If the AU were different, so would be the parsec.  They are indeed
very strongly and deliberately related.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 16:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Jun 12 15:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <3D07F486.29964.A5D165@localhost>
References: <003101c21163$3682c710$1c577b83@Gideon> <3d073e60.31126392@post.demon.co.uk> <3D07F486.29964.A5D165@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020613082141.B29266@freeman.little-possums.net>

a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz wrote:
> A4 is the forth division of a one meter square golden rectangle (ie
> a golden rectange 1/16th of a square meter)

Close, but not a golden rectangle.  It's a rectangle with ratio of the
sides being sqrt(2).  The golden ratio is (sqrt(5)+1)/2.

A rectangle with ratio sqrt(2) has the useful property that you can
join two such rectangles by their long edge to give another rectangle
of ratio sqrt(2).  So two A4 sheets make an A3, two A3's make an A2,
etc.  I don't know if there's a name for the next size above A0 :)

The B and C series sizes are also sqrt(2)-based, but with different
starting areas.  http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-paper.html is a
fairly useful web site explaining them.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 16:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Jun 12 15:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]
In-Reply-To: <3D0776E3.4030609@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3D0874D4.14936.476600@localhost>

On 12 Jun 2002 at 9:29, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Shawn wilson wrote:
> 
> >> However, any culture which fails to "Clean up it's act" will
> >> eventually die in it's own pollutants.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Not supported.  There aren't any examples of human cultures failing thusly.
> > 
> > 
> 
> LOL! Go look up what happened to the Maya.

Wasn't there also a civilization in the Mississippi basin that died for 
similar reasons?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 16:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Jun 12 15:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <3D077BEF.F24CFAC1@ameritech.net>
References: <20020612081006.2D5CD27B91@mail.travellercentral.com> <3D077BEF.F24CFAC1@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20020613083855.C29266@freeman.little-possums.net>

David Shayne wrote:

> From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
> > For that, the AI capability needs to be sufficient to handle any
> > problem that might crop up anywhere in all stages of production,
> > including unforeseen situations. 
> 
> Only on planets like Sabmiqys where there are no sophonts to provide
> oversight.

You said that for robotic systems, labour and materials "provide
themselves".  I was just showing that they still require human
supervision and so there are ongoing labour costs.  They *partly*
provide themselves, and are really limited by how many human experts
you have.


> Which is also needed in non robotic production.

Yes, that's right.  I was just arguing that expansion and maintenance
of robotic production is not "free" after the initial investment.  It
still requires (probably very substantial) ongoing costs.


> Or not. Every problem that gets diagnosed and fixed gets added to
> the knowledge base of the factory AI so problems requiring sophont
> intervention become less frequent as time goes by.

If you believe that's necessarily true, I've got an AI to sell you :)
Every problem is different, and applying old solutions to new problems
is often an excellent way to screw things up even more.

Furthermore, such problems will expand at least linearly with the size
of the robotic infrastructure.  So the expansion rate will still be
limited by the availability of human labour.  True, there will be a
large increase in the productivity per human.  But not unlimited --
not until the AIs are good enough to do anything that a human can do.


> That is one possible explanation. Though You can get most of waht
> I'm talking about done with the kinds of AI currently available.

As I said -- I've got an AI to sell you :)


> On the other hand I can also visualize a more benign partnership of
> equals. Robots that provide and sophonts to consume.

Doesn't sound very equal to me ;) Besides, the robots consume too.
Maintenance, upgrades, refitting for new tasks when there's
overproduction of a given type, production of new robots, programming,
diagnosing problems, building tools, building infrastructure for
expansion, ... etc.  And the humans don't just consume, they are
absolutely required to do problem solving from every level from local
foul-ups (which become more frequent with expansion, not less) to
top-level redesigns.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 16:49:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Hagler)
Date: Wed Jun 12 15:49:25 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]
In-Reply-To: <3D0776E3.4030609@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <B92D1DD5.513A9%khagler@orange-road.com>

on 6/12/2002 9:29 AM, Bruce Johnson wrote:

>>> However, any culture which fails to "Clean up it's act" will
>>> eventually die in it's own pollutants.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Not supported.  There aren't any examples of human cultures failing thusly.
>> 
>> 
> 
> LOL! Go look up what happened to the Maya.

Nobody knows what happened to the Maya. I've read lots of theories, and none
of them had anything to do with pollutants. On the other hand, one of the
theories is mass starvation from the fields being exhausted by trying to
feed too many people with primitive (i.e. "organic") farming techniques.
-- 
                              Ken Hagler

|          ICQ#: 34591293         |   For PGP key send mail with  |
|   http://www.orange-road.com/   |    subject "Send PGP Key".    |
|   And tho' we are not now that strength which in old days       |
|   Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are --Tennyson  |


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 16:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Jun 12 15:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Just Who Is On That Ship?
In-Reply-To: <200206122021.IHX00279@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020612153032.009ff840@mindspring.com>

At 04:21 PM 6/12/02 -0400, you wrote:
>You would think that a universe that had a lot of these
>little groups going around causing trouble would lead to
>a "profile".

Once I finish Trojan Reach, I am planning on putting in a inquiry about the 
Laws and Lawbreakers book.  I will have something to say on the matter.  :)

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                     -Adam West, as Batman 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 16:53:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Jun 12 15:53:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <00bf01c2124c$482c9150$b50fa118@upstairs>
References: <20020612012326.E213827B1C@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020612153224.009ef3c0@mindspring.com>

At 04:03 PM 6/12/02 -0400, you wrote:
>  ps. hint, if the Referee says "We're playing out this jump..." you
>  should be thinking, "Danger! Danger! Red Alert!" --

One of the things on my "to do" list is a variant of Chez Geek covering 
that week in jump.  The idea is trying to get all the things you need to 
overcome the boredom.  There would be crew cards, with "Pull" replacing 
"Income."  Pull represents your rank/and influence onboard ship.

Things would be in the same theme as CG.  Food, Booze, entertainment.  You 
would be able to get "nookie" cards and invite passengers to your cabin. Of 
course, getting a "Breakdown" card played on you would be bad...

OK, would any of you part with your hoarded pennies and buy this if it was 
produced?  It would be for GT specifically, but just a fun look at the 
glossed over portion of Traveller.

(One of my favorite crew cards is "Ex-Army Guy"  Almost no Pull, but scads 
of free time.  There's one on every ship, you'll see.)

-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
                          -Chicago reader, 10/15/82


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 16:58:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Jun 12 15:58:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture (was RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting])
In-Reply-To: <3D0874D4.14936.476600@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020612225710.D0DFD27B0C@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/13/02 at 10:32 AM,  "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
said:

>> LOL! Go look up what happened to the Maya.

>Wasn't there also a civilization in the Mississippi basin that died
>for  similar reasons?

Yes and no. The Mississippian culture of "mound builders" seemed to
disappear, but it doesn't seem to have died out because of damage they
did to the environment. Climate, religious, and social changes appear
to have caused changes in their culture. The people that had made up
the former society appear to have continued living in the same areas,
they just stopped building the big mounds. 

I think climate, and perhaps religious changes, were the main culprits
in the decline of some of the more organized cultures of the American
southwest as well.

This doesn't mean that the original comment was incorrect, though.
There have been societies hurt, destroyed, by self-destruction of
there environment. You only have to look at Eastern Europe to see the
effects of what industrial pollution can do an environment, the health
and wellbeing of those that live there. I hate to say it, but I'm
sitting in Pace, Florida...right over a huge pool of toxic chemicals
as I write this. The pool injected into the ground here by local
chemical plants is slowly migrating toward the bay, away from our
local waterwells, so they say we are "safe"...yeah, we're safe.  And
we don't even have to worry about the effect on the estuaries, the
bay, the sound, or the gulf either.  I'm not green, I'm blue.


Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 17:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Jun 12 16:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture (was RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting])
In-Reply-To: <20020612225710.D0DFD27B0C@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <3D0874D4.14936.476600@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D087D7F.1665.693FFA@localhost>

On 12 Jun 2002 at 17:57, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Yes and no. The Mississippian culture of "mound builders" seemed to
> disappear, but it doesn't seem to have died out because of damage they
> did to the environment. Climate, religious, and social changes appear
> to have caused changes in their culture. The people that had made up
> the former society appear to have continued living in the same areas,
> they just stopped building the big mounds. 
> 
> I think climate, and perhaps religious changes, were the main culprits
> in the decline of some of the more organized cultures of the American
> southwest as well.

And these climate changes were never caused by the people chopping down 
all the trees, and so on?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 17:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Jun 12 16:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Chez Jump (was Silly Question)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020612153224.009ef3c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020612231123.A3C1227B6A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/12/02 at 03:38 PM,  Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
said:

>At 04:03 PM 6/12/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>  ps. hint, if the Referee says "We're playing out this jump..." you
>>  should be thinking, "Danger! Danger! Red Alert!" --

>One of the things on my "to do" list is a variant of Chez Geek
>covering  that week in jump.  The idea is trying to get all the
>things you need to  overcome the boredom.  There would be crew cards,
>with "Pull" replacing  "Income."  Pull represents your rank/and
>influence onboard ship.

>Things would be in the same theme as CG.  Food, Booze, entertainment. 
>You  would be able to get "nookie" cards and invite passengers to
>your cabin. Of  course, getting a "Breakdown" card played on you
>would be bad...

>OK, would any of you part with your hoarded pennies and buy this if
>it was  produced?  It would be for GT specifically, but just a fun
>look at the  glossed over portion of Traveller.

I probably would, but I don't have any ftf folks to play with. ;-<
BTW, what about it would tie it to GT specifically? I'm having trouble
seeing how something like this could be tied to any specific version
of Traveller.

>(One of my favorite crew cards is "Ex-Army Guy"  Almost no Pull, but
>scads  of free time.  There's one on every ship, you'll see.)

Yep, always an Ex-Army and/or an Ex-Marine guy/gal sitting around
drinking, eating, and gambling with the Ex-Scout, Ex-Navy, and
Ex-Merchant guys/gals. <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 17:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Jun 12 16:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] About that MAF manual
Message-ID: <200206122314.IIB10216@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'm sure that Doug will agree with me that the most 
interesting part of Part 4 (which someone insisted we read), 
was the part about Human Waste Factors.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 16:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chez Jump (was Silly Question)
References: <20020612231123.A3C1227B6A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D07DB7C.7010303@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> On 06/12/02 at 03:38 PM,  Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> said:

>>(One of my favorite crew cards is "Ex-Army Guy"  Almost no Pull, but
>>scads  of free time.  There's one on every ship, you'll see.)
> 
> 
> Yep, always an Ex-Army and/or an Ex-Marine guy/gal sitting around
> drinking, eating, and gambling with the Ex-Scout, Ex-Navy, and
> Ex-Merchant guys/gals. <g>

Hey! I resemble that remark. Besides, the Ex-Scout is too busy flying 
through a hurricane right now to be swapping stories, Eris (hint hint :-P

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 17:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 16:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]
References: <B92D1DD5.513A9%khagler@orange-road.com>
Message-ID: <3D07DE0C.10408@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Ken Hagler wrote:
> on 6/12/2002 9:29 AM, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> 
>>>>However, any culture which fails to "Clean up it's act" will
>>>>eventually die in it's own pollutants.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Not supported.  There aren't any examples of human cultures failing thusly.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>LOL! Go look up what happened to the Maya.
> 
> 
> Nobody knows what happened to the Maya. I've read lots of theories, and none
> of them had anything to do with pollutants. On the other hand, one of the
> theories is mass starvation from the fields being exhausted by trying to
> feed too many people with primitive (i.e. "organic") farming techniques.

They died out because they destroyed the carrying capacity of the land 
they were on. That they did it via overfarming rather than polllution is 
irrelevant to the fact that cultures have died out due to their 
inabiliuty to deal with the ecological damage they caused.

There is clear evidence of widespread famine in many of the cities; 
there is written evidence of it, as well.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 17:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Jun 12 16:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Data security...
In-Reply-To: <I+E$4YBRC5B9EwWP@bzb1.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B92D2CD7.5EC88%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/12/02 11:18 AM, Ben Bell at TML@bzb1.demon.co.uk wrote:

>> on 6/12/02 9:26 AM, Jeff Rowse at jeffrowse@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Just out of curiosity, what are the laws regarding encryption technologies
>> like PGP?
>> 
> 
> In which country? In the UK now you have to hand over your encryption
> key if they demand it should they think that the encrypted information
> is evidence in a crime. Failure to do so is a 2 year prison sentence.

Sorry.  I meant inthe UK.  Is a warrant required to obtain the key.  Must
the authorities show probable cause, or can they just go fishing?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 17:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Jun 12 16:54:03 2002
Subject: cell phones (was Re: [TML] VRF Shotgun?)
In-Reply-To: <200206121944.IHV05057@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B92D2D19.5EC89%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/12/02 12:44 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> One that I'm interested in:  they say that the US has a
> jammer that works on VT fuses.  It causes premature
> detonation.

That's been around since the 1950's.  It only works on RADAR VT fuses.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 17:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Wed Jun 12 16:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20020612220914.9F3F927BE0@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020612164545.009f68c0@mailhost.efn.org>

On 12 Jun 2002 15:16:56 -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

>Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> > Which makes an interstellar voyage a once in a lifetime event for
> > most people.  Unless someone else is footing the bill.
>
>An interstellar voyage in middle passage--low is really quite
>affordable.

Unless one happens to be using the original CT rules for low passage (throw 
5+ to survive).  Even assuming the competent doctor in attendance for a DM 
of +1, that's a roll of 2, 3 or 4 on 2D, which is 6 in 36, or a 1 in 6 
chance that you'll wake up dead.

Maybe there are people in the Traveller universe who, like steerage 
passengers of old, will save up and pin their hopes on a method of travel 
with a one in six fatality rate.  As a lower-middle class citizen of a 
prosperous TL 8 nation, however, I'm sure not one of them.

Given that the "low lottery" is canon, they're not hiding these mortality 
rates, either.  Would you take a summer vacation *knowing* that if you 
rolled a 1 on a d6, the plane would blow up?


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 18:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 17:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]
References: <3D0874D4.14936.476600@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D07E0D2.2030508@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> 
> Wasn't there also a civilization in the Mississippi basin that died for 
> similar reasons?

The Mississipian Moundbuilders culture. We're less sure what happened to 
them, since they persisted until the arrival of the Spaniards, and were 
gone before the French arrived, there's speculation that disease, likely 
smallpox and/or measles, played a major part, as that was the cause of 
most major die-offs immediately post-contact with Spain.

However we know they were in conflict with a number of other cultures in 
the area as well, which disrupted their extensive trade routes.

http://mississippian-artifacts.com/



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 18:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Wed Jun 12 17:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: To-may-to or to-mah-to?
In-Reply-To: <20020612220909.9E12D27BDA@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020612220909.9E12D27BDA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <98ofgu0e91a81o1fe2skl9f1d0c7havg97@4ax.com>

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:08:03 -0700, "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
wrote:

>Say!  How many of you say Ref/Referee and how many say GM, and can we
>correlate that with your preferred version of Traveller? <g>

Just to wrench the monkey, I went though a phase where I insisted on GD
(Game Designer).


--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 18:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 17:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture (was RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the
 OTU Setting])
References: <3D0874D4.14936.476600@localhost> <3D087D7F.1665.693FFA@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D07E3BD.6050208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> On 12 Jun 2002 at 17:57, Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
>>I think climate, and perhaps religious changes, were the main culprits
>>in the decline of some of the more organized cultures of the American
>>southwest as well.
> 
> 
> And these climate changes were never caused by the people chopping down 
> all the trees, and so on?
> 

Actually, no. They weren't cutting down that much of the forest. There 
is evidence for long epicycles of drought in western North America 
(tree-ring records, mostly, which are pretty well calibrated to 
determining wet/dry cycles), and some evidence that we're just starting 
such a dry period...IOW the huge boom of growth west of the Missisppi in 
the US has occured in a largely 'wet' period of about 1-200 years or so.

Gonna be an interesting next century out here...prior to about 1920 or 
so regular, low intensity wildfires were part of the landscape, with 
occasional large conflagrations that really cleared out the forests.

We've been suppressing those for decades now, to the point that no one 
alive truly remembers what a climax Rocky Mountain Douglas fir forest 
*looks* like...it's NOT what our forests look like today.

We're sitting in a tinderbox that'll make the Yellowstone fire of 1988 
look like a small brush fire.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 18:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Wed Jun 12 17:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Weird email
References: <20020612215237.776C227BDA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003401c2126f$3d954de0$1c577b83@Gideon>

<quote>

> Say!  How many of you say Ref/Referee and how many say GM, and can we
> correlate that with your preferred version of Traveller? <g>
> 
> Eris

</quote>

GM (Game Master)

Home-brewed D6 with heavy CT/MT influence.

Anthony Colosetti



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 18:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Jun 12 17:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chez Jump (was Silly Question)
In-Reply-To: <3D07DB7C.7010303@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020613004730.D7B1127C1F@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/12/02 at 04:38 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>Eris Reddoch wrote:
>> On 06/12/02 at 03:38 PM,  Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>> said:

>>>(One of my favorite crew cards is "Ex-Army Guy"  Almost no Pull, but
>>>scads  of free time.  There's one on every ship, you'll see.)
>> 
>> 
>> Yep, always an Ex-Army and/or an Ex-Marine guy/gal sitting around
>> drinking, eating, and gambling with the Ex-Scout, Ex-Navy, and
>> Ex-Merchant guys/gals. <g>

>Hey! I resemble that remark. Besides, the Ex-Scout is too busy flying
> through a hurricane right now to be swapping stories, Eris (hint
>hint :-P

I *did* post something in Akus this afternoon...2 posts in fact!  Just
nothing for the intrepid ex-scout Ricardo O'Brien. Actually, I think
I'm waiting for one of your boatmates to respond to something...oh,
Suz? <g>

Eris,
    and yes, I need to do something about that curly haired dwarf
that's acting like a lightingrod's ground wire, too. <g>

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 18:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Jun 12 17:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020612164545.009f68c0@mailhost.efn.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020612164545.009f68c0@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <m3lm9k80dy.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org> writes:
> 
> Unless one happens to be using the original CT rules for low passage
> (throw 5+ to survive).  Even assuming the competent doctor in
> attendance for a DM of +1, that's a roll of 2, 3 or 4 on 2D, which is
> 6 in 36, or a 1 in 6 chance that you'll wake up dead.

GT's much better about this.  Automatic if a doctor or electrical
technician with 10+ is present.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Anesti!  Alithos Anesti!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 19:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Jun 12 18:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]
In-Reply-To: <3D07F486.31281.A5D15B@localhost>
References: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPEEANDNAA.max200@lanset.com>
 <F194AY1RfKYglKJ9Nb60001b919@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020612210034.020071f8@192.168.0.1>

At 01:25 AM 6/13/2002 +1200, a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz wrote:
[snip]
>Please don't send it to a non-political list if you don't want people to
>react to it.
>BTW I didn't bother to read the rest of the post, but this is just a
>red rag to various bulls around here.

Hey! Don't look at me!

Ok....Ok....So I often rise to the bait in such matters...but this time I 
did respond off list directly to Herr Whipsnade.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"[I will] totally dismantle every intelligence agency
in this country by piece, nail by nail, brick by
brick" -- Ron Dellums, D-Calif, 1993, after House
Democratic Caucus elected him chairman of the
House Armed Services Committee.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 19:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Jun 12 18:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture (was RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting])
In-Reply-To: <3D087D7F.1665.693FFA@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020613011001.3D273279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/13/02 at 11:09 AM,  "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
said:

>And these climate changes were never caused by the people chopping
>down  all the trees, and so on?

Rupert, I didn't say man's actions have never caused local, or even
regional, climate changes, but that wasn't the problem in the American
southwest or with the
Mississippians.  It wasn't over farming either, as it was with the
Mayans...at least, that isn't thought to be the case.  In both the
cases I mentioned the cultures basically disappeared, but the people
didn't...at least not for a while, anyway.  It was probably a change
of meme that did them in, but nobody really knows.  Later climate,
disease and competition reduced or shifted the populations as others
moved in/through, and all the reasons why about all this got even more
confused.

Okay, Ob Trav:  

The Scout Team / Exploratory Traders land on a previously unexplored
world.  They had come to this system because of rumors of its advanced
civilization, but when they arrive they find large, but empty cities. 
Yes, there are natives, but they avoid the cities as taboo and live
only in small villages no higher than TL3.  When the team explores the
cities they estimate they were built at TL8, and they can't find any
concrete evidence of what happened.  When they ask the natives, what
they are told translates as "the time of the cities was over", "every
day was Oneday" and "it was time to return to the land."  Now they
insist that the cities are the homes of demons that will strap you to
wheels of iron and use you to grind flour for their bread.

So, what happened?  Can the team figure it out?  And,
although this planet would be perfect for an Advanced base for work in
this subsector can they get the natives to
agree, should they try? 

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 19:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Jun 12 18:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture (was RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting])
In-Reply-To: <3D07E3BD.6050208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <3D0874D4.14936.476600@localhost> <3D087D7F.1665.693FFA@localhost>
 <3D07E3BD.6050208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <m33cvsvv0m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> 
> We're sitting in a tinderbox that'll make the Yellowstone fire of 1988
> look like a small brush fire.

What do you mean will--been following the news in Colorado?  The
fire's gotten to within 35 miles of Denver (although of course it
won't actually get _into_ Denver).  And the summer's not even at its
height yet.

Isn't there a bit in the Bible about building on rock vs. sand?  There
should be a bit about building one's house in the middle of a flipping
forest as well...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Crist aras!  Crist solice aras!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 19:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Jun 12 18:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rules for Popcicle Toes (was Freedom of speech in the Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <m3lm9k80dy.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020613012249.03570279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/12/02 at 06:53 PM,  ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
said:
 
>> Unless one happens to be using the original CT rules for low passage
>> (throw 5+ to survive).  Even assuming the competent doctor in
>> attendance for a DM of +1, that's a roll of 2, 3 or 4 on 2D, which is
>> 6 in 36, or a 1 in 6 chance that you'll wake up dead.

>GT's much better about this.  

So are most people's house rules. <g>

I make it an Easy (4+) Task using Medic under normal circumstances. On
failure, there is another Easy Task using Medic to avoid serious
injury, and if that fails  yet another to avoid death. So, with
Medic-1 that's 1/36 chance of any sort of failure, 1/1296 chance of
serious injury, and 1/46656 chance of death.  That's still high enough
that MD's and specialist LowBerth Technicians are often called in to
supervise unfreezing the "popcicles."

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 19:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Jun 12 18:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: To-may-to or to-mah-to?
In-Reply-To: <98ofgu0e91a81o1fe2skl9f1d0c7havg97@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020613012957.6FB44279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/12/02 at 08:03 PM,  Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> said:

>On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:08:03 -0700, "Eris Reddoch"
><erisred@telocity.com> wrote:

>>Say!  How many of you say Ref/Referee and how many say GM, and can we
>>correlate that with your preferred version of Traveller? <g>
...but, what about Tommy-toe? <g>

>Just to wrench the monkey, I went though a phase where I insisted on
>GD (Game Designer).

So, did you ever get called "GD Squared?" As in GD GD! <g>

Personally, I prefer Ref, but use GM a lot of the time...and as
everyone here probably knows I'm all over the board on versions. <g> 
Now days, my preference is CT with extentions and lots of fudge poured
all over it.

Eris,
    and around here it's pronounced Tuh-mate-uh
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 19:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Wed Jun 12 18:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <00bf01c2124c$482c9150$b50fa118@upstairs>
References: <20020612012326.E213827B1C@mail.travellercentral.com> <00bf01c2124c$482c9150$b50fa118@upstairs>
Message-ID: <rusfgucmgc3fs5jk4d4r0komhn9jh977j8@4ax.com>

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:03:49 -0400, "Sparky" <sparky13@nycap.rr.com>
wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>But all of that leads my thinking to one last question....based on the
>reasons outlined here, is there any other pseudo-science manner that 168
>hours is used? Is there some 'strange' coincidence having to do with 168
>hours for X-boats, for example? That things somehow just 'work out' that
>it's convenient for travel time to be 168 hours? Or any other such
>'unintended' consequences in any published material?

I've always held to the theory that, unlike familiar space in which
maximum speed is fixed (speed of light), Jump space instead has a
"fixed" duration where the effective speed varies widely.  Thus Jump 1
to Jump 6 and even a Jump 36 misjump all require the same duration.

Of course, there is the side issue that my "fixed" duration is
actually +/- 10% and so isn't quite fixed, but I generally ignore that
from a layman's standpoint.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 19:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Jun 12 18:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture (was RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting])
In-Reply-To: <m33cvsvv0m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020613013712.AE794279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/12/02 at 07:15 PM,  ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
said:

>Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
>> 
>> We're sitting in a tinderbox that'll make the Yellowstone fire of 1988
>> look like a small brush fire.

>What do you mean will--been following the news in Colorado?  The
>fire's gotten to within 35 miles of Denver (although of course it
>won't actually get _into_ Denver).  And the summer's not even at its
>height yet.

Summer hasn't offically *started* yet.  Yeah, I'm afraid it's going to
be rough out west this summer. Down here, too.

>Isn't there a bit in the Bible about building on rock vs. sand? 
>There should be a bit about building one's house in the middle of a
>flipping forest as well...

Ah, they'd probably already cut all their forests down over there in
Palistine. <g>

IAC, there are dangers almost everywhere. Down here it's huricanes and
tornados. In the midwest it's tornados. In river valleys it's floods.
In California, it's earthquakes. Around volcanos, it's lava. Up north,
it's blizzards.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 19:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Rutherford)
Date: Wed Jun 12 18:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Weird email
In-Reply-To: <000201c2122b$d8a85780$6700a8c0@imogen>
References: <B92BA05B.5E6F1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <001b01c211aa$cba054b0$1c577b83@Gideon> <m3n0u1ysm5.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020612213957.00b654c0@mail.comcast.net>

At 05:08 PM 6/12/2002 +0100, PLST wrote:
>Did anyone else just get a weird email from "tml-request"  called
>"NORESIZE BORDER" and containing 2 attachments  (an  html  and  a
>program called "2000.exe") ... the  properties  say  it  is  from
>tml-request@travelle ?????  What is it?

It sound like something one would not want to execute...


Bill Rutherford
worj@comcast.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 19:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Jun 12 18:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture (was RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting])
Message-ID: <F106SOHE0KnbZzprlY50001e595@hotmail.com>

From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

     "There is evidence for long epicycles of drought in western North
America (tree-ring records, mostly, which are pretty well calibrated
to determining wet/dry cycles), and some evidence that we're just
starting such a dry period..."


Mr. Johnson,

     I just finished a book dealing with the Little Ice Age.  While the 
author concentrated on the effects in and around Europe, he did mention that 
the eastern verges of the American Great Plains were effected also.
     Apparently during that period, willow groves expanded into the area, 
naturally drawing with them the fauna that lived in that type pf ecosystem.  
As the Little Ice Age began sputtering out in the mid to late 1500's, the 
willows retreated along with the fauna.  The locals, who had been hunting 
deer among the willow groves, had to switch to hunting buffalo among the 
prairie grasses.
     I wonder if the effects of the Little Ice Age's passing had any effect 
on the Mound Builders.  We humans love to blame a single, finite cause for 
any change, when it is usually a blend or mixture of causes that are the 
culprits.  Could this climate hiccough have "conspired" to do in the Mound 
Builders along with the other causes you listed?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 19:50:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Wed Jun 12 18:50:47 2002
Subject: Chez Geek expansion (was Re: [TML] Silly question..)
References: <20020613011704.EA7EF27C35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D07FA05.C61C477E@mailbag.com>

OHOHOHOH! in an instant!

Let's put it this way - I always thought that the idea of the game was
cute, but not worth the pennies. This expansion makes it worth the
pennies. 

> One of the things on my "to do" list is a variant of Chez Geek covering
> that week in jump.  The idea is trying to get all the things you need to
> overcome the boredom.  There would be crew cards, with "Pull" replacing
> "Income."  Pull represents your rank/and influence onboard ship.
> 
> Things would be in the same theme as CG.  Food, Booze, entertainment.  You
> would be able to get "nookie" cards and invite passengers to your cabin. Of
> course, getting a "Breakdown" card played on you would be bad...
> 
> OK, would any of you part with your hoarded pennies and buy this if it was
> produced?  It would be for GT specifically, but just a fun look at the
> glossed over portion of Traveller.
> 
> (One of my favorite crew cards is "Ex-Army Guy"  Almost no Pull, but scads
> of free time.  There's one on every ship, you'll see.)

_AND_ count a keyboard kill from an old Treadhead...


> --
> 
> Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
>    http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
>      http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
> 
> Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
>                           -Chicago reader, 10/15/82

William
-- 
You better watch out   What you wish for;
It better be worth it  So much to die for.
		       Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 20:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Maksim-Smelchak)
Date: Wed Jun 12 19:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020612210034.020071f8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPAEDJDNAA.max200@lanset.com>

Leland isn't the onlt guilty one. I did it too! I meant to send it
off-board.

Digressing, it's pretty hard to avoid politics since politics isn't much
more than making choices in life. I'm sure that will get a few replies.

Cheers,
Maksim-Smelchak.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mark Urbin
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 6:02 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]
At 01:25 AM 6/13/2002 +1200, a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz wrote:
[snip]
>Please don't send it to a non-political list if you don't want people to
react to it.
>BTW I didn't bother to read the rest of the post, but this is just a red
rag to various bulls
>around here.

Hey! Don't look at me!

Ok....Ok....So I often rise to the bait in such matters...but this time I
did respond off list directly to Herr Whipsnade.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 20:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V.I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Jun 12 19:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020612153224.009ef3c0@mindspring.com>; from gridlore@mindspring.com on Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 03:38:41PM -0700
References: <20020612012326.E213827B1C@mail.travellercentral.com> <00bf01c2124c$482c9150$b50fa118@upstairs> <5.1.0.14.2.20020612153224.009ef3c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020613050055.A10042@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 03:38:41PM -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> One of the things on my "to do" list is a variant of Chez Geek covering 
> that week in jump.  The idea is trying to get all the things you need to 
> overcome the boredom.  There would be crew cards, with "Pull" replacing 
> "Income."  Pull represents your rank/and influence onboard ship.
[snip]
> OK, would any of you part with your hoarded pennies and buy this if it was 
> produced?  It would be for GT specifically, but just a fun look at the 
> glossed over portion of Traveller.

I would buy this immediately, if it only has enough cards. I might
consider buying it anyway, though...

Chez Geek is a nice game. My favourite peeve with it is that it has
way too few cards in its basic box.  It is not enjoyable with too
few cards, when the deck ends and you have to reshuffle: too few
nookies, for example, in relation to their value: games tend to be 
decided on who draws the nookie. (Nookie gives you quite much slack.)
Also, reshuffling makes everyone aware what's in the deck, and that
they might all be accessible. 

With the two expansions, it becomes an entirely different game. One
can't be sure what is still coming up. 

That, and it is too easy: I have won three last games I have played. 
I have played only something like five, total... The three wins were
against people who have played it a lot more. Then again, I might just
be lucky.

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 21:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Wed Jun 12 20:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
References: <20020612190213.03C3827BB2@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D080FA5.CC3D2346@ameritech.net>



> Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:03:19 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>

> David Shayne writes:
> 
> >
> > This is a one time only cost. After the first robot factory goes in the
> > rest are effectively free.
> 
> Not really.  There's a time cost; if it takes the first robot factory 50 years
> to build the second, during which time it _could_ be building other stuff
> instead, expanding your capacity is hardly free.

First off fifty years is far too long a time frame. Industrial robots 
are the tools youd need to do the job even without robotics plus
control systems and some minor articulation bits to make up for no human
to move things around. A robotic factory will not therefor require
significantly more time and resources to build than a non robotic
factory.

The figure is probably closer to five years. So yes in those first five
years
the plant isn't producing for consumption. This seems like a loss. But
after
the second plant comes on line the two together will catch up to the
output 
of the one plant alone in ten years. So after ten years the extra
production
from the second plant is in fact free.


> First of all, traveller fusion is not effectively free given the things
> Traveller has to use energy on. 

Such as what? What power requirements do people have that cannot be met
by cheap, clean, and abundant fusion?

Besides if you find yourself running out of power throw a few more
plants on line. The fuel required is absurdly plentifull and the
construction bots should be able to make quick work of it.

> Secondly, energy and materials aren't the only
> limits on production; the third limit is raw production capability (i.e. what,
> in theory, do you have the ability to produce). 

But when your able to manufacture production capacity to order this
ceases to be a limitation. I supose you might run out of land to 
put the factories on. After which you'd have to move to orbit. Luckily
thrusters make quick work of going to and from space so this is a
non-issue.


> > > but labor costs may really not be the limiting
> > > factor on economic growth,
> >
> > Supply and demand are coequal as the primary limiting factors on
> > economic growth. Given virtually unlimited supply (robotic production
> > for instance) the only limiting factor then becomnes demand.
> 
> Except that robotic production is not magical, and doesn't give virtually
> unlimited supply.

Give it the energy and material resources (both plentifull and easily
available given Traveller tech assumptions) and the output is as near
to unlimited as makes very little difference.

> 
> > And this is relevant how? Surely robotic production wouldn't take more
> > time than non-robotic construction.
> 
> Since you need to build robots as well as all other material components, it
> may.

Of course the robots are replacing a component that requires a long lead
time
to produce and may decide to be unavailable to you at any price.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 21:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Wed Jun 12 20:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
References: <20020613011706.997F627C33@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D0816D1.6CA9FB05@ameritech.net>

> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:38:55 +1000
> From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

> You said that for robotic systems, labour and materials "provide
> themselves".  I was just showing that they still require human
> supervision and so there are ongoing labour costs. 

Only at the lower tech levels. By TL 15 I suspect that the required
human supervision will be along the lines of telling the production
facility what color you want your Type S painted.

> If you believe that's necessarily true, I've got an AI to sell you :)
> Every problem is different, 

Not true. In fact if every problem were different problem solving would
be a haphazard process of trying random things untill something appeared
to work. In reality most problems come up again and again making it 
posible to use experience and training to diagnose and fix them.

> and applying old solutions to new problems
> is often an excellent way to screw things up even more.

I'll grant that. However these are the situations that drive people nuts
too. No reason to suspect that decent AI (say that available to the 3I 
on or about 1100) should have an inordinate problem on this score.

> 
> Furthermore, such problems will expand at least linearly with the size
> of the robotic infrastructure.  So the expansion rate will still be
> limited by the availability of human labour.  True, there will be a
> large increase in the productivity per human.  But not unlimited --
> not until the AIs are good enough to do anything that a human can do.

No. Just good enough to do the job of the human they are replacing. The 
Model 99/41+7 Foreman Bot doesn't need to know how to tend bar or grill
a medium rare groat steak. It needs to know about production and
quality control. It can theoretically have a much broader understanding 
in this restricted field than any single man could (because information
sharing is much more reliable and easily implemented with computer 
memory than with human.)

> > That is one possible explanation. Though You can get most of waht
> > I'm talking about done with the kinds of AI currently available.
> 
> As I said -- I've got an AI to sell you :)

Wouldn't do me any good untill energy prices take the kind of steep dive
that they won't do untill Traveller style fusion is introduced. :]

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 21:57:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jun 12 20:57:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Santanocheev
Message-ID: <OFE9F0C5B4.92A4013C-ONCA256BD7.0012A900@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Doug wrote:
>Santanochev...
>also listened to the inbred and 
>inefficient Naval Intelligence apparatus in the Marches.

Thankfully, Peter corrected:
>Santanocheev created  a  parallel  agency
>(the Office of Naval Information) which displaced NI in the  High
>Command.  ONI is described as full of bootlickers and yes-men.

Or, as my players describe them, the "Offal of Naval Intestines", and a 
bunch of scumbags to boot. NI is actually an OK organisation, as far as a 
bunch of spooks goes.

Has anyone else put all the following together?
        - Norris is from Naval Intelligence
        - "Some  time  in  the  past Naval Intelligence had produced  a 
faulty  prediction  that  had reflected badly on Santanocheev  ...  and 
thus  NI  was  on  his
personal enemies list". (from Peter Trevor)
        - "Recall that Santanocheev was head of INI in the Marches until he became
sector admiral; Norris and Santanocheev probably worked together before
Norris became duke in 1095 or so." (Glenn M. Goffin)
        - "Norris' problem was that Santanocheev had the role _Norris_ wanted. Santy 
was Sector admiral and had command of all Imperial forces in the sector." 
(also Glenn)

Those clashing ambitions & personalities make for a great "conspiracy" 
campaign!

(especially for those in the ACW thread: "N" vs "S", see?) <groan!>

First, N and S work together in NI. N realises that S is a social-climbing 
buffoon. S rises to the top more quickly, and N creates that faulty 
prediction to shake S's position. N then can't do any more from inside, as 
he has to take over the reigns [deliberate pun] at home. When S becomes 
Sector Admiral, N decides he has to get S out of the way or else he'll 
stuff everything up. N petitions Strep for a warrant back in 1104 (as per 
Digest 9).

S finds out about the Warrant, and as Terry Carlino suggests:
>I suspect that the Santanochev might have known about the warrant and
>perhaps even **caused** the Warrant to be lost and then used IN forces
>specifically loyal to him to try to prevent Norris from obtaining it.

Right! _NOW_ you're thinking like a PC!

;-)  ;-)

(BTW, for an earlier TML discussion of the Warrant' whereabouts, try my 
site under Repair bays ==> Canon problems.)

[BTW, apologies for the second (official and "IMPOTANT"!) "disclaimer" 
message attached below - I can't get rid of it, and it appears to be a new 
thing welded onto every email I now send!! :-( ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 22:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Jun 12 21:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chez Jump (was Silly Question)
In-Reply-To: <20020612231123.A3C1227B6A@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020612153224.009ef3c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020612210024.009f1a90@mindspring.com>

At 06:11 PM 6/12/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >OK, would any of you part with your hoarded pennies and buy this if
> >it was  produced?  It would be for GT specifically, but just a fun
> >look at the  glossed over portion of Traveller.
>
>I probably would, but I don't have any ftf folks to play with. ;-<
>BTW, what about it would tie it to GT specifically? I'm having trouble
>seeing how something like this could be tied to any specific version
>of Traveller.

Ye Olde Penguin was typing while singing along with Metallica and the San 
Francisco Symphony doing "Master of Puppets."  I forgot to type a "not" there.

> >(One of my favorite crew cards is "Ex-Army Guy"  Almost no Pull, but
> >scads  of free time.  There's one on every ship, you'll see.)
>
>Yep, always an Ex-Army and/or an Ex-Marine guy/gal sitting around
>drinking, eating, and gambling with the Ex-Scout, Ex-Navy, and
>Ex-Merchant guys/gals. <g>

Yes, but specifically the ex-Army Guy with *no* shipboard skills at all.

-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is
that I am now a perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague
here is rapidly running out of limbs!"
   - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 22:27:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Jun 12 21:27:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Chez Jump (was Silly Question)
In-Reply-To: <20020613004730.D7B1127C1F@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <3D07DB7C.7010303@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020612210306.009fe820@mindspring.com>

At 07:47 PM 6/12/02 -0500, you wrote:
>I *did* post something in Akus this afternoon...2 posts in fact!  Just
>nothing for the intrepid ex-scout Ricardo O'Brien. Actually, I think
>I'm waiting for one of your boatmates to respond to something...oh,
>Suz? <g>

"Ricardo O'Brien"?  I hope he doesn't break down in all that rain and have 
to find a phone...


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 22:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 21:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <m3hek9cumr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20612.175742.8I2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>> 
>> AU and Parsecs are neither metric *nor* "US". 
>
> I dunno--I've always thought of them as being in the same spirit as
> standard measures.  Which is to say, units developed to suit a
> purpose, as opposed to satisfying some scheme.
>
>> And the parsec is *based* on the size of the AU.  As I recall, it's
>> something like:
>> 
>> 1 pc = arc-cotan(1") AU
>> (that's 1 second, not 1 inch!)
>
> The definition I heard is that it's the hypoteneuse of a right
> triangle the short leg of which is 1 AU and whose opposing angle is
> 1"--which is to say, the verbose way of saying the above.
>
>> I still need to learn APL (more because you can do *such* strange
>> stuff with it), and eventually I'll dig out my old FORTRAN compiler.
>
> You can do some pretty cool stuff with Scheme--and it doesn't require
> a funky font:-)

Neither does APL. There are versions that let you type in names for the
functions. 

Besides, I *like* funky fonts. 

But how many languages are there where you can write the Sieve
benchmark in less than a dozen *characters, or a text editor in a
couple of lines?

APL is just Polish Notation taken to extremes. :-)

ps. the most respect I've *ever* seen someone get was when someone on a
newsgroup mentioned that his job involved maintaining several
*thousand* lines of APL code...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 22:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 21:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <3d073e60.31126392@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20612.180251.7r6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Metric systems use their length terms for measures of area and
>>cubic area (ex. 2 square meters or 5 cubic meters) where the Imperial
>>measurement system has specific names for area and cubic area=20
>
> One hectare is 10,000 square metres (or 100 metres square if you
> prefer).  The term is used regularly in contexts where pre-metric
> people would use "acre".
>
> A hectare is 100 ares, but I've never heard anyone measure anything in
> ares. ;-)

And one cubic meter is a "stere". 

> In a way, "A4" is also a named measurement of area (297mm by 210mm)...
> This one is used in normal conversation (as in "It's about the size of
> two sheets of A4").

Ah! It's B sized.

Paper sizes, at least for engineering drawings and the like:

A	8.5" x 11"
B	11" x 17"
C	17" x 22"
D	22" x 34"
E	34" x 44"

I've got a plotter that can handle B sized paper. If I ever get a
house, I might grab one of the E sized plotters that pops up on the for
sale newsgroups from time to time, but probably not.

I do eventually need to get things set up so I can use the plotter (an
HP 7475A) to produce maps and drawing for games and stuff.

> Stephen
>
> http://www.stempest.demon.co.uk/traveller/
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 22:31:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 21:31:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <3D073DD1.22311.BAD779@localhost>
Message-ID: <20612.180900.0q2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 11 Jun 2002 at 14:21, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> There are now *4 sizees of metric pop bottles that I've seen (3 liter,
>> 2 liter, 1 liter, and I think I've seen 1/2 liter) and other stuff is
>> popping up. 
>
> It'll get worse - we currently have  500mL, 600mL, 1L, 1.5L, 2L and 
> 2.25L as 'standard', with assorted others popping up from time to time.

We've got a bunch of non-metric sizes, at least a couple of which are
new. 6 oz, 8 oz(?), 12 oz, 16 oz, 20 oz, 24 oz.

The old quart (32 oz) is dead, replaced by the 1 liter. I expect 16 oz
to die out in favor of 1/2 liter eventually.

But 20 oz and 24 oz are relatively new, and seem to be holding on. 



> -- 
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
> Military Intelligence
> ...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
> on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
> activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
> mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 22:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Wed Jun 12 21:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Risks of Low Passage (was: Freedom of speech in the
 Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <20020613011706.997F627C33@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020612213701.009f7c90@mailhost.efn.org>

On 12 Jun 2002 18:53:29 -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

>GT's much better about this.  Automatic if a doctor or electrical
>technician with 10+ is present.

Oh, I'm aware of this.  And IMO, it's one of the better little fixes GT 
made to the background.  I'm simply pointing out that low passage is only 
inexpensive if one doesn't consider the hidden costs (under the CT ruleset, 
at least).

As it stands in Book 2, the only persons who will travel by low berth are 
those who are willing to pay Cr1000 for the privilege of being met at the 
terminal by the purser, who will hand them a revolver with one chamber 
loaded and insist that they place it to their temple and pull the trigger 
before boarding.  And should there /not/ be a competent medic present, or 
if the passenger is of even slightly below average health (End 6 or less), 
their odds of not surviving nearly double - 10 in 36, or almost 1 in 3.  In 
which case, the purser loads two chambers.

This sort of thing would tend to cut down on casual/tourist travel.

P.S.:  Does anyone have an idea how these numbers compare to the typical 
"breakage" in the people-smuggling business?



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 22:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Jun 12 21:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chez Jump (was Silly Question)
Message-ID: <F107osVkRiUHLCaISh60001e2e5@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "Yes, but specifically the ex-Army Guy with *no* shipboard skills at 
all."


Mr. Berry,

     I wouldn't say that an ex-Army guy who is able to waltz a couple of 
rounds with that drunken, boisterous middle passenger and then tuck him away 
for the night has "no" shipboard skills.  Let's just call him the "assistant 
purser" and let it go at that.
     A dozen or so passengers spending 168 hours locked aboard something the 
size of a small vacation bungalow and with little to do but drink is going 
to lead to some "minor" problems.  Brawling-3 is definitely a shipboard 
skill!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

ObTrav - Every passenger needn't be a lost heiress, sneak thief, potential 
highjacker, card shark, or spy on the lam to provide a GM with hours of fun 
at her PC's expense.  Simply import those petty annoyances from your office, 
those feuds from summer camp, those jackasses you knew in the service.  A 
week in jump can lead to some wonderful ROLE playing.


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 23:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed Jun 12 22:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
References: <20020612024007.7AB1E27B46@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <007a01c21299$137c3a80$385d8690@computer>

From: Leonard Erickson
> But the tech that can build a von Nuemann machine can also build ones
> that can replicate themselves *and build machines to make other things
> as well.

Von Neumann machines can be produced at TL0.  They're called "humans".

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 23:10:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed Jun 12 22:10:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture (was RE: Cuba analogy [TL in
References: <20020613011704.EA7EF27C35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <007b01c21299$1445a500$385d8690@computer>

> From: "Eris Reddoch" 
> The Scout Team / Exploratory Traders land on a previously unexplored
> world.  They had come to this system because of rumors of its advanced
> civilization, but when they arrive they find large, but empty cities.

Faintly, in the distance, the whir of a hard drive is heard...

I'm going to use this one, sooner or later.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 23:12:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Jun 12 22:12:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <3D0816D1.6CA9FB05@ameritech.net>
References: <20020613011706.997F627C33@mail.travellercentral.com> <3D0816D1.6CA9FB05@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20020613150959.A30041@freeman.little-possums.net>

David Shayne wrote:
> I'll grant that. However these are the situations that drive people nuts
> too. No reason to suspect that decent AI (say that available to the 3I 
> on or about 1100) should have an inordinate problem on this score.

Well, we know that even TTL F AI (at least in the Imperium) isn't
human-level or even particularly close.  By human-level, I mean here
average human, not genius.  There will be *many* problems that the AI
can't handle.  Some of them will be near the edge of what the smartest,
most expert humans can handle.

In a non-Traveller setting, yes, I agree with you -- I strongly
suspect that AI will be sufficient to the task *long* before we see
the sorts of toys appropriate to TTL F.  It would be doable at GURPS
TL 9 without too much difficulty, for example.

Traveller IA is just rather backward compared to most other settings.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 23:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 22:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <3D07F486.1732.A5D15B@localhost>
Message-ID: <20612.211246.1N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 11 Jun 2002, at 14:29, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> AU and Parsecs are neither metric *nor* "US". 
>
>> And the parsec is *based* on the size of the AU. As I recall, it's
>> something like:
>
> IIRC one AU is the mean distance of the Earth from the Sun and a 
> Parsec is a Parallax Second. So they are related, but not 
> deliberately

Quite deliberately. 

The "parallax" is the shift in the position of the star as seen form
opposite sides of the Earth's orbit. 

So you have a right triangle with the sun at the right angle and the
Earth and the star at the other two angles. The Earth-Sun line is (by
definition) 1 AU.

If the star is one parsec away, the star-Sun line is one parsec long.
And the angle at the star is 1 second of arc. 

Thus my comment that a parsec is the cotangent of 1 second times 1 AU. 
(and yes, I goofed and said "arc cotan" originally)

cotan(1") = 206,264.7897

So as a rough figure, a parsec is about 200,000 AU. Or 3e13 km. or
about 100 million light seconds. (All figures to 2 sig fig accuracy
only) 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 23:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 22:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEMLEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20612.215211.9l8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Roman numerals aren't "math". They are more like an alhabet or
>>language. Arabic numerals work better. But they don't affect the basic
>>*mathematics*.
>>
> The Romans who used those numerals as their counting system might disagree
> with you, but I get your point.

Don't confuse mathematics and arithmetic. <g>

>>Newtonian physics is TL *3*. And it still works perfectly well as long
>>as you avoid relativistic velocities, scales where quantum effects are
>>important and insanely huge gravity fields.
>>
>>The corrections for any of the above are microscopic under "normal"
>>circumstances.
>>
> But at TL3 only a handful of people knew about Newtonian Physics.

TL3 ends in 1860. A *lot* of folks knew Newtonian physics in 1860!

>>Maxwells equations are TL4. And stll work outside the quantum domain.
>>
> Same thing. When Maxwell proposed his equations vector calculus was still
> unexplored and the four equations required pages and pages of regular
> calculus to illustrate. The number of people equipped with the proper
> training to understand those concepts was fairly small.

TL4 ends in 1900. Again, anybody with any training in physics beyond
the most basic was exposed to them.

>>Once the scientific method is discovered, any "new" science merely make
>>the old science a "special case" of the new science (ie netwonian
>>physics are a special case where the velocties are very much lower than
>>c and gravity isn't severely warping space.)
>>
>>> The proportion of people who are familiar with any of the sciences is
>>> also greater, and they reached such a level of understanding *much*
>>> earlier on average.  Mainly because we teach knowing where all the
>>> dead-ends are.
>>
>>I think you are confusing science and engineering.
>>
> On the last point, at TL4 Newtonian physics was taught to people through
> private letters, and expensive privately published papers with very limited
> distribution. 

Try again. TL4 is 1860 to 1900.

> When talking TL you are talking both science and engineering. Why
> would anyone make a flintlock when they could make a percussion cap.

Because all you need to keep a flinlock going is essentially *medieval*
(or even Roman) tech. 

Making percussion caps is a lot harder, and a lot more hazardous to
your health.

> Heck if they can make power cells and ultra high temperature
> superconductors why not make a gauss gun?

True enough.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 23:19:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 22:19:06 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMGEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20612.220019.7q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> O contrair, mo friar (very bad pseudo French.) This is done on analog
> phone lines too using a process called Time Division Multiplexing
> (known as TDM in telcom dialect.) On analog trunk lines frequency
> division multiplexing is used, which allows even tighter packing. A
> T1 using TDM can carry 24 voice channels or 1544 mbps. A bundle of
> fiber can do better, of course.

That's 1.544 Mbps. :-)

And a T-1 carries 24 B channels and 1 D channel. 

24*64k + 16k = 1.552M (obviously there's a little "overhead" in the
1.554M :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 23:20:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 22:20:18 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92BCA96.5E7C3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20612.220324.3Y1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 6/11/02 4:03 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>>> This sounds very similar to me of the way in which standard digital T1 and
>>> T3 lines already handle communication. Most people don't realize that 
> their
>>> voice communication is already compressed and sent in microsecond burst
>>> along the communication trunks to be expanded at the other end, rather 
> than
>>> sent at audio frequencies like old fashion radio.
>> 
>> It's digitized to a 64kbps data stream (actually only 56k as a low
>> order bit is sometimes "stolen" for signalling between switches).
>> 
>> The compression is on the digital data stream, not the analog voice.
>> It's not sent in bursts, it's just multiplxed with other channels. As I
>> recall, a T1 is 24B+D (ie 24 64k "B" channels and 1 16k data channel
>> for signalling purposes).
>
> But weren't we talking about cellular packets, not digital voice over wire?

Phone quality voice requires 64kbps, regardless of how you do it. And
it usually goes between towers on wired trunks, on a B channel of
whatever sort of link is present.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 23:21:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun 12 22:21:23 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20020612073748.A26076@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20612.220704.0o7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> A 56K modem pumps around 56K of information down an audio line that
>> has a theoretical Shannon limit of 2.4K data bits
>
> No, the theoretical Shannon limit for a high-grade voice line is about
> 100 kilobits according to the specs on Telstra exchange equipment.

Except that a voice circuit is limited to 4 kHz of bandwdth due to
concerns over leakage unltil you make a *big* jump in frequencies
(which is what DSL does).

> Lower-quality voice lines may go as low as 20 kilobits before Telstra
> is obligated to rectify the fault.  On such lines you can expect your
> modem to handshake somewhere around 9600 or worse, depending upon the
> quality of your modem and what type of noise you're getting.
>
> You are probably thinking of bandwidth, which is related but not the
> same thing.  Yes, a voice-grade line has a minimum nominal bandwidth
> of about 2.4 kHz, but that's only one variable in the equation.
>
> 2.4 kHz != 2.4 kb/s.

Minimum usable range according to the standards (which most phone
companies feel no obligation to meet) is 30-3000 Hz. Or about 2700 Hz
of bandwidth. Modern stuff goes up to 4kHz.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 12 23:53:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Jun 12 22:53:17 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20612.220704.0o7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020612073748.A26076@freeman.little-possums.net> <20612.220704.0o7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020613155158.B30041@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Except that a voice circuit is limited to 4 kHz of bandwdth due to
> concerns over leakage unltil you make a *big* jump in frequencies
> (which is what DSL does).

That's pretty much what I said.  4 kHz != 4 kb/s.  4 kHz with
appropriate maximum noise levels of certain types (i.e. good specs on
Telstra exchange equipment) gives about 100 kilobits per second as the
Shannon limit.  Not the 2.4 kb/s claimed in the post to which I was
responding.


> Or about 2700 Hz of bandwidth. Modern stuff goes up to 4kHz.

Yep, again pretty much what I said.  Poor quality voice lines might be
as low as 2.4 kHz bandwidth.  High-quality lines generally have both
wider bandwidth and lower noise.  The latter is far more important
than the former in determining Shannon limiting bitrates for
voice-grade lines.

Locally, Telstra will guarantee 2.4 kHz of bandwidth, and a maximum
noise level that works out to about 20 kilobits Shannon limit.  Good
luck trying to get a modem to do 20 kb/s on such a line, though.
You'd be lucky to get 14 kb/s -- modems do not operate very close to
the Shannon limit except under contrived circumstances.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 00:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Jun 12 23:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20612.220324.3Y1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B92D851C.5ED10%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/12/02 11:03 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> But weren't we talking about cellular packets, not digital voice over wire?
> 
> Phone quality voice requires 64kbps, regardless of how you do it. And
> it usually goes between towers on wired trunks, on a B channel of
> whatever sort of link is present.

That would be a surprise to most cell companies, as the typical cell phone
uses an 8k or 13k vocoder.  A lot of the overhead in cell communications is
due to redundant packets and packet shuffling.  This has more to due with
the nature of radio noise than anything else.

BTW, if anyone is a glutton for punishment, they should check out the
technical specs for CDMA.  A more complex and byzantine systems could not be
imagined.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 00:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Jun 12 23:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chez Jump (was Silly Question)
In-Reply-To: <F107osVkRiUHLCaISh60001e2e5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020613061535.8FA8527C39@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/13/02 at 04:56 AM,  "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> said:

>ObTrav - Every passenger needn't be a lost heiress, sneak thief,
>potential  highjacker, card shark, or spy on the lam to provide a GM
>with hours of fun  at her PC's expense.  Simply import those petty
>annoyances from your office,  those feuds from summer camp, those
>jackasses you knew in the service.  A  week in jump can lead to some
>wonderful ROLE playing.

Sure there should be a cross section of people travelling. You can
have fun with all sorts of folks, just like it real life.

Let's see, the passengers that have booked passage on the /Mae Lee/
for her next voyage are:  a media company VP returning from a sales
trip, a business man on his way to his daughter's wedding, a minor
football team/coach and trainer going to a tournament, and a scientist
couple
(biochemist and sociologist) returning home after a trip. These NPC's
might just be background fodder, but depending on how events unfold
*any* of them could end up with
interesting parts to play in the game.

A few months back a different game and ship had a
missionary, a couple of businessmen on sales trips, a
retired couple going to visit their son's family, a writer and his
beautiful femal assistant/bodyguard, and a gambler, as well as the
PC's.  With this varied bunch, I had
everything needed to play out sorts of stories.

Over the years I've put retired schoolteachers, lawyers,
honeymooning couples, professional gigilos, an actress, and reporters
to name just a few types, aboard ships as
passengers.  Sometimes they aren't what they seem to be, but most of
the time they are *exactly* what they seem to be, <g> and either way
they can be interesting companions during the jumps and layovers the
ship makes.

And the key is you don't have to *use* all the NPC's each voyage for
something important.  Let it play out, and let those that get used to
further the story come from the
events.  Those who's stories don't get played out, can be returned to
your box and brought out with different names and faces during some
future voyage.

Once upon a time, I actually *had* a box that I kept them in.  Now, I
tend to file them in my subconscious and free associate when I need
characters.  I *really* should get another box. <g>


Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 00:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Jun 12 23:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]
In-Reply-To: <F135truO7dKxpFmrgPJ0001ce02@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D08E6A2.12563.2E6CAA@localhost>

On 12 Jun 2002, at 17:56, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> Mr. Moffatt-Vallance,
> 
>      I thought I was.  :(
>      In my stupidity, my post was sent to the TML.  Please ignore it.

Now my apologes. If I'd been paying more attention, I could have seen that 
it was an accidental posting.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 00:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Jun 12 23:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chez Jump (was Silly Question)
Message-ID: <F189H2JZZJfwTXSRdZq0001d238@hotmail.com>

From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>

     "Sure there should be a cross section of people travelling. You can
have fun with all sorts of folks, just like it real life."


Mr. Reddoch,

     One of the cheaper Whipsnadian past-times is people watching at 
whatever mall happens to be close to the hotel.  Purchase a cup of coffee, 
add a newspaper, and watch the hours fly by.

     "Let's see, the passengers that have booked passage on the /Mae Lee/ 
for her next voyage are:  a media company VP returning from a sales
trip,..."

     She lost THE account for her company, totally fumbled the affair.  She 
and the news of this disaster will arrive home at the same time.  She gets 
wound tighter and tighter and tighter as the jump progresses.

     "...a business man on his way to his daughter's wedding,..."

     Professional traveller, nose constantly buried in his pocket reader, 
pleasent to other passengers and crew, drinks socially, and so forth.  He 
asks his cabin mate to give him one hour of privacy every day, any hour that 
is convienant.  Odd noises are heard from the cabin during that hour and 
door is locked.  Passenger appears flushed and tired after each episode.  
(He's practicing a traditional dance required to be performed at his 
daughter's wedding)

     "...a minor football team/coach and trainer going to a tournament,"

     Trainer is actually the brains behind the coach.  Coach is a braggart, 
blowhard, and bore.  Frequently has one or two more than he should have 
after dinner.  Makes clumsy passes at female passengers and crew.  Wants to 
arm wrestle everyone else.  Trainer is using his hold over coach to fix 
games, very nasty and controlling customer.

     "... and a scientist couple (biochemist and sociologist) returning home 
after a trip."

     Very poisonous atmosphere between the two.  Have been cheek by jowl 
during a research trip for too long, need some time apart.  One is the 
bright light of whatever institution they work for, the other has their job 
because of their spouse.  Amateur production of "Who's Afraid of Virginia 
Woolf?" from them every night.

     "These NPC's might just be background fodder, but depending on how 
events unfold *any* of them could end up with interesting parts to play in 
the game."

     But, of course!  That's the fun part!  I couldn't understand the 
recently posted theory regarding the 168 jump period.  The time spent in 
jump is not "down" time, it's a session in itself!

     "Over the years I've put retired schoolteachers, lawyers,
honeymooning couples, professional gigilos, an actress, and reporters
to name just a few types, aboard ships as passengers."

     Tech reps, vacation/game show winners, remittance men, failed gold rush 
types slinking home, extremely annoying little old ladies with nasty pets, 
starship crew wannabes (Can I see the jump drive? ad nauseum), junkies, 
rummies, Whipsnades, all sorts of flotsam and jetsam.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 00:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Jun 12 23:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting]
Message-ID: <F8MVt2evU2Re1xQYbHh0001e74d@hotmail.com>

From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>

     "Now my apologes. If I'd been paying more attention, I could have seen 
that it was an accidental posting."


Mr. Moffat-Vallance,

     No need to apologize, sir.  If I hadn't been treating my insomnia with 
a dose of TML, the whole affair would have never happened.
     It doesn't matter whether it was an accident or not, I still managed to 
foul the List.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 00:53:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Jun 12 23:53:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <00bf01c2124c$482c9150$b50fa118@upstairs>
References: <20020612012326.E213827B1C@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <00bf01c2124c$482c9150$b50fa118@upstairs>
Message-ID: <p04330102b92df14e8a00@[198.123.22.160]>

At 4:03 PM -0400 6/12/02, Sparky wrote:
>But all of that leads my thinking to one last question....based on the
>reasons outlined here, is there any other pseudo-science manner that 168
>hours is used? Is there some 'strange' coincidence having to do with 168
>hours for X-boats, for example? That things somehow just 'work out' that
>it's convenient for travel time to be 168 hours? Or any other such
>'unintended' consequences in any published material?

Is there any reason why pi happens to be 3.14... ?
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 00:56:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ben Bell)
Date: Wed Jun 12 23:56:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Data security...
In-Reply-To: <B92D2CD7.5EC88%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <I+E$4YBRC5B9EwWP@bzb1.demon.co.uk>
 <B92D2CD7.5EC88%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <VTRoj5AIHEC9Ew$V@bzb1.demon.co.uk>

In message <B92D2CD7.5EC88%webmaster@travellercentral.com>, Tod Glenn 
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes
>on 6/12/02 11:18 AM, Ben Bell at TML@bzb1.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
>>> Just out of curiosity, what are the laws regarding encryption technologies
>>> like PGP?
>>>
>>
>> In which country? In the UK now you have to hand over your encryption
>> key if they demand it should they think that the encrypted information
>> is evidence in a crime. Failure to do so is a 2 year prison sentence.
>
>Sorry.  I meant inthe UK.  Is a warrant required to obtain the key.  Must
>the authorities show probable cause, or can they just go fishing?

I believe they need a warrant, and probably cause. At the moment anyway. 
But now they're talking about letting everyone have access to your 
e-mails and Internet Browsing. Just why does the NHS and the Department 
of the Environment need general access to people's e-mail and net logs?
-- 
Ben Bell

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 04:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 03:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1023900811.5137.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20613.004730.3j4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Timothy Little writes:
>> Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> > There seems to be some sort of regulation on legal cabin sizes,
>> > since the maximum occupancy of cabins is 2 people in a 4 dton cabin,
>> > which is rather low.
>> 
>> No, it's 2 people per unit of cabin *space*, which includes corridors,
>> galleys, bathrooms, dining areas and the behind-the-scenes equipment
>> required to support it all.  The cabin itself takes up a relatively
>> small fraction of its allocated space.
>
> I think it's specified as being about half.  In any case, that's still low;
> assuming a stateroom is only 1 dton of internal volume (an 8' cube) it's
> certainly possible (if uncomfortable) to fit 6 people in there.  Put bunks in
> cargo space, and you can fit 4 people per dton with room left over for some
> minimal shared space.

Yeah, but that'll play merry hell with life support. That extra "air
space" per passenger provides some useful buffering and reserves.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 04:00:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 03:00:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Atmospheric Pressures and Charcters?
In-Reply-To: <p04330109b92c544cd2ea@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20613.010807.4b5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 5:20 PM -0800 6/11/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>If the pressure is high enough for nitrogen narcosis or oxygen
>>toxicity, you are *very* limited as to the "inert" gases you can use.
>>
>>As an example, xenon makes a wonderful anaesthetic at a few psi partial
>>pressure.
>
> For the pressures the poster asks about, this isn't a problem.  For 
> higher pressumres, on uses helium.  You can get well beyond these 
> pressures.

Sure, at the pressures he's talking about you don't need *anything*,
except a decompression table.

>>And unless you use some more fancy filtering, you'll *lose* that "inert
>>gas" every time you exhale.
>
> Yeah, so you would need to buy "tanks" or have a closed system pass 
> the same air around, exchange CO2 and O2 through a selective membrane.

With the higher pressures, you'll have trouble getting the gasses to
cross the membrane in the desired direction. They tend to go from high
concetration to low. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 04:01:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 03:01:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Atmospheric Pressures and Charcters?
In-Reply-To: <20020612122847.7821d2af.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20613.011258.4m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>> How long do you care about? "Vacuum" sealed canisters maintain a psi or
>> so of difference for years.
>
> Yes, true. However, they let small amounts of air in. This is not a problem 
> for food and such (not enough air to cause noticable decay), but if the air 
> was replaced by flourine, I wouldn't want to be inside that suit for too 
> long.
>
>> Sure it does. In fact it's the only practical option if the atmosphere
>> outside is something you *don't* want getting inside.
>
> Exactly.
>
>> 5-10 atm internal pressure is not that big a problem. Saturation divers
>> deal with that sort of thing for days at a time. And it should be
>> doable indefinitely.
>
> OK, I am not well educated about the medical effects of overpressure, so I 
> cannot really comment. However, it takes time to get used to the different 
> pressure, so you'd not be able to put on that EVA suit in a hurry and rush 
> out...

The hab would be at *maybe* 1 or 2 psi over external pressure. That's
an insignificant difference as far as going outside or returning. And
you'd keep the suit at a similar overpressure for the same reasons,
anyway. 

>> But if you've got a world with elemental abundances weird enough to
>> allow plant life that creates a chlorine atmosphere then the water will
>> react with the chlorine to produce a *really* corrosive compound known
>> as "chlorine water". This stuff will cheerfully disolve *gold*.
>
> Not OK...   :-)

> "I am wearing an EVA suit, damnit. Why should I care about rain?"

Well, it depends on what it's made of. :-)

As an example, *copper* works quite well for handling fluorine. That's
because it develops a surface coat of fluoride, miuch like aluminum
develops a surface coat of oxide. 

So the reaction stops almost immediately.

BTW, if you've got a hunk of aluminum you don't care about, toss it in
a bucket of water. There won't be any noticeable reaction. 

Add some lye or other "strong" hydroxide. The lye won't react with the
aluminum *or* with the oxide coat. But aluminum oxide is *soluble* in
alkali solutions. 

The oxide coat dissolves, leaving the aluminum exposed to the water.
Aluminum reacts *rapidly* with water, producuing aluminum oxide and
hydrogen gas. And the new oxide coat dissolves in the solution. 

The reaction can get vigorous enough to ignite the hydrogen!

Note again that the lye is only a "catalyst" of sorts. It doesn't
react, it just makes it possible for the Al2O3 to dissolve.

I wonder what similar "gotcha!" reactions will be found on worlds with
corrosive or insidious atmospheres.

Oh yeah, hydrogen seeps thru solid metal. It takes time, but it
happens. And it makes the metal *very* brittle in the process...

Helium seeps thru some ridiculously tiny cracks. Which ruined a lot of
tube based gear in the early Sealabs.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 04:02:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 03:02:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Atmospheric Pressures and Charcters?
In-Reply-To: <E17I3U2-0001UE-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20613.011004.2Y1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>
>> But if you've got a world with elemental abundances weird enough to
>> allow plant life that creates a chlorine atmosphere then the water
>> will react with the chlorine to produce a *really* corrosive compound
>> known as "chlorine water". This stuff will cheerfully disolve *gold*
>
> "chlorine water"?  Isn't that just hydrochloric acid?

Nope. It's chlorine *dissolved* in water. 

HCl won't eat gold. Chlorine water *will*. It's not *quite* as bad as
aqua regia (a mix of nitric and hydrochloric acids). 

Basicly, the water lets the Cl molecules turn into Cl ions. which are a
lot more reactive. In HCl, they tend to be more bound to the hydrogen
ions. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 04:03:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 03:03:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <022301c211a0$29faff70$b50fa118@upstairs>
Message-ID: <20613.013556.3A6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>> A jump, whether it moves you 1 nanometer, 1
>> kilometer, 1 AU, or 1 parsec takes around a week.  Roughly put, if
>> travelling the distance you have in mind in our universe would take more
>> than a week, you use your jump drive.  If it would take less than a week,
>> you use your manuever drive.  And in both cases you never get going fast
>> enough to worry about time dilation!
>> I hope this clears up any questions you may have had.
>
> Except for that one last question (Why a week?) that I just posted in a
> reply to another poster, that answers all my questions just fine.  And that
> was very entertaining to boot.
>
> Although time dilation must still factor in there somewhat if there is a
> difference in clocks in earth orbit and the earth's surface. I'll just
> assume that that is figured into the navigation calculations. I'll fret no
> more about that pesky problem, don't you worry! And thanks.

The time difference between Earth Orbit and the ground is due more to
the difference the the curvature of space due to *gravity* than to the
velocity of the satellite. 

You can actually measure the difference in time rates between the top
and bottom of a medium tall building. But it takes *very* sensitive
instruments. The difference is something on the order of a second in a
few thousand years (or less, anybody have good figures?)

For the time dilation due to velocity, you have to get very close to
the speed of light for the effects to be noticable. 

At 1% of c, time is running at 99.9949998% of the rate at rest.
At 10% of c, it's 99.4987437%
At 20% of c, it's 97.9795897%
etc. 

1% of c is 3,000,000 meters per second, or 3000 km/sec. Or 10,800,000
km/hr. 

If you've got a calculator that can do trig functions, the easy way to
figure this is :

tau = cos(arcsin(v/c))

tau = time slowing
v = velocity
c = speed of light in the same units.


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 04:04:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 03:04:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <001401c211aa$b4b15bf0$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20613.014515.6J0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Behalf Of Sparky
>> This is what confused me. I'm reading a book called "Hyperspace' by Michio
>> Kaku (1994) and it describes some of the propertes of some other
>> dimensions...which, of course, preclude FTL travel in this manner.
>
> Again, you are looking too close.  First most of these descriptions
> (e.g. Star Trek, Star Wars, Traveller, B5) were made before that book.
> Besides which, I am sure there is a dimension *somewhere* that will
> work like we need it to.  :-)

Not likely. The problem has nothing to do with *other* dimensions. It
has to do with how time and space are related *here*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 04:05:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 03:05:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020611192836.00a00a00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20613.014642.3M9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Ah.  Traveller shortcuts the physical universe entirely.  Our ships "jump" 
> into another state where they simply pop out 168 hours later at the desired 
> point in space.  Jump space doesn't follow the same laws as our 
> universe.  You wrap a little bit of our universe around yourself and spend 
> one week *completely* cut of from the rest of the cosmos.  None of these 
> nasty problems with relativity and the twin paradox.

Yeah, instead you get *other* problems with relativity and time travel.
:-)

Remember, the bit with FTL being equivalent to time travel is due to
the way the space time co-ordinates to the departure point in *our*
space time is realted to the arrival point in our space time. If you
get there faster than light can cross the gap (in our space), then for
someone travelling in the right direction at the right speed you'll
arrive before you left. 

It's actually a matter of *geometry*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 04:06:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 03:06:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <m3it4pys1c.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20613.015419.6O5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> tml@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest) writes:
>> 
>> I've always wondered whether starships' clocks would be set to
>> Terran Standard Time (and would that be GMT or some other time
>> zone), Vland Time, or the time of their home planet?
>
> Well, on individual planets it doesn't make sense to keep Capital time
> exactly--time is useful for measuring the state of the day more than
> anything else.  So I imagine planets use their own local `day,' which
> is simply the number of standard hours the day is long, rounded off
> (so the day on a planet with a rotation period of 8.14 hours would be
> 8, and each hour would be 1.0175 standard hours, or 61.05 minutes or
> 3,663 seconds).

Using already "established" practice (from the Mars Landers), the local
solar day would be referred to as a "sol". 

This avoids confusion with the standard 24 hour day.

Likewise, you don't want to call the subdivisions of the sol "hours",
because that could lead to *deadly* mistakes. Is that tank of air good
for 8 standard hours or 8 *local* hours? 
 
I've been thinking about "peri" (peer-e" from "period" as a possible
term. Though I also like the "dura" (derived from "duration?) that
David Brin had the locals using in the last Uplift War book.

I figure that the sol will be divided into a convenient number of
peris. Probably something that divides up nicely. Numbers like 12 & 24
work well. 

I don't think shorter units are really necessary. Decimal notation will
work well enough for *that*. But I'm open to suggestions for *short*
names.

Intervals that are shorter will likely still be measured in minutes and
seconds. 

"The test will begin at the tenth peri. You will have 30 minutes to
complete it."

Doing it this way avoids every planet having to recalculate all units
in engineering and science that are associated with time. Stuff like
kilowatt hours, flow rate meters, and hundreds of other things.

The peri and sol would be purely local, *civil* units. Just like the
local calendar. 

The Imperial calendar would be used for stuff like shipping schedules.

> Despite what the OTU states, I'm not certain if planets use the
> Imperial calendar for local use--calendars are useful for planting,
> determing weather &c.  Almanacs on a world with an orbital period of
> 126 days as well as one with an orbital period of 496 days would be
> excessively complex and painful, used they the Imperial calendar.

Right. So there will be local calendars for local events. And local
clocks. But they'll use different names for units to avoid trouble.

> OTOH, it is a given that conversions to the Imperial calendar be
> well-known and published.

You need a different conversion for every world. :-)

And except for dealing with offworld events and schedules, you won't
need to refer to it often.

The local clock would be used for scheduling stuff on world. The
standard day, hour, etc would be used for a host of other things. 

For example, imported medicines would have dosages listed in standard
time units unless the planet was big enough to make it worthwhile doing
up special labels just for them.

> Now, how does all this apply to starships?  The only real reason to
> use local time is if one is stuck on a locale for quite awhile, or if
> one spends the majority of one's time visiting a particular planet.

You use the "local time" display on the clocks or your watch to let you
know things like what time of sol it is outside, and when appointments
are.

Hmmm. I wonder if an "analog" display on the watch showing how much of
the sol had elapsed would be standard? Sort of a pie chart with the
colored portion increasing until midnight, when it goes back to zero
again?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 04:07:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 03:07:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <20020613050055.A10042@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <20613.021405.9b3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 03:38:41PM -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
>> One of the things on my "to do" list is a variant of Chez Geek covering 
>> that week in jump.  The idea is trying to get all the things you need to 
>> overcome the boredom.  There would be crew cards, with "Pull" replacing 
>> "Income."  Pull represents your rank/and influence onboard ship.
> [snip]
>> OK, would any of you part with your hoarded pennies and buy this if it was 
>> produced?  It would be for GT specifically, but just a fun look at the 
>> glossed over portion of Traveller.

Post in your LiveJournal and see if anybody is interested. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 04:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 03:09:02 2002
Subject: cell phones (was Re: [TML] VRF Shotgun?)
In-Reply-To: <200206121944.IHV05057@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20613.021927.4v8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> One that I'm interested in:  they say that the US has a 
> jammer that works on VT fuses.  It causes premature 
> detonation.

Wouldn't be that hard. All you need to know is the frequency the radar
in the shell is working on. Feed it false "return" pulses and it'll
detonate when the timing is "right" for the programmed offset.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 04:09:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 03:09:48 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92CC126.5EBA4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20613.024543.7a0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 6/12/02 1:37 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>> Sure. But you can grow grapes *lots* of places. But you don't get fine
>> wines from most of them. And the ones you do get taste different.
>> 
>> Likewise, the conniseurs(sp?) can tell the difference between Pacific
>> and Atlantic oysters.
>> 
>> Your high tech aquaculture may *not* produce lobsters that taste the
>> same. Not without investing a *lot* extra in duplicating "minor"
>> details of the home environment.
>
> So you are limiting your customers to those who can make a distinction and
> will pay for it.  What happens when the economy takes a dip?  You may still
> need your high-tech gizmos, but they may not want those wines or lobsters,
> which are just luxury items.

Which is why you try to sell to more than one planet. *Widespread*
economic downturns seem to be less frequent in the Imperium.

Hmmm. I wonder if the spread of TLs is a factor? <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 04:10:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 03:10:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Weird email
In-Reply-To: <000201c2122b$d8a85780$6700a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <20613.025101.0t5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Did anyone else just get a weird email from "tml-request"  called
> "NORESIZE BORDER" and containing 2 attachments  (an  html  and  a
> program called "2000.exe") ... the  properties  say  it  is  from
> tml-request@travelle ?????  What is it?

If you view the *full* headers, and compare them with the full headers
for *this* message, you'll find some fields that are very different.

What you've got is a copy of the Klez email virus. and if you are using
an unpatched version of Outlook, you are now infected.

Klez searches for addresses on the infected system and uses one of them
as the from address instead of the actual address of the owner of the
system. 

so all you know until you check the headers is that the person who is
infected has some messages from the TML on his system.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 04:11:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 03:11:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Data security...
In-Reply-To: <200206121637.IHP03885@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20613.025744.1A6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Jeff Rowse" says
> <snip stuff about the British Government reading your email>
>
> Well, here in the US, it looks like the FBI can subscribe to 
> the digest here, without a warrant.  The list is technically 
> a public place (i.e., open to the public).  They also have 
> that email filter (Carnivore, or whatever they're going to 
> call it now).

It's coming out that Carnivore is *badly* broken and often intercepts
email that it shouldn't have. Which makes the "properly" intercepted
email from the same "search" unusable in court. 

This has come out after a group got the courts to order the FBI to
reprocess a request under the Freedom of Information Act. As the group
had alleged, the first response *had* left out a lot of relevant
documents. Including several where the FBIs's own legal and tech people
where expressing serious concerns about this.

Once the word spreads, Carnivore collected evidence will be unusable in
any court. As will any evidence located by *using* that tainted
evidence. 

> It's probably not possible to look at all electromagnetic 
> traffic, but it's probably possible to track a significant 
> amount of "traffic of interest".

Intercepting it is easy. It's *filtering* it so that humans only have
to look at stuff that isn't a major waste of time that's the hard part.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 04:12:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 03:12:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Weird email
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020612213957.00b654c0@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20613.025527.0L5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 05:08 PM 6/12/2002 +0100, PLST wrote:
>>Did anyone else just get a weird email from "tml-request"  called
>>"NORESIZE BORDER" and containing 2 attachments  (an  html  and  a
>>program called "2000.exe") ... the  properties  say  it  is  from
>>tml-request@travelle ?????  What is it?
>
> It sound like something one would not want to execute...

If you are running an upatched version of Outlook, you don't *need* to
execute it. It uses a Microsoft programming error (failure to consider
that Mime headers may not be accurate) to get itself executed
*automatically*)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 04:15:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 03:15:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Intrasystem Stutterwarp
In-Reply-To: <20020612205505.A91B5279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20613.030418.7l1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 06/12/02 at 03:50 PM,  "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> said:
>
>>Uh oh is right.  I really like stutterwarp (except that name).
>
>>If I wanted things to be simple, there would be stutterwarp  with a
>>maximum velocity (lightspeed) in "normal" space, and a  jumpspace
>>similar to the concept used in B5, including jump  gates, travel
>>through jumpspace, and limited combat and  detection in jumpspace.
>
>>But then it wouldn't be Traveller, would it?
>
> Sure it would! 
>
> Nothing you mentioned above affects the Traveller feel, as long as you
> can keep the basic concept of interstellar communications limited to
> the travel speed of the ships, and keep the ships slow enough, by
> whatever method you want, so that it still takes weeks and months to
> get a message from the frontier to the core. You could keep almost all
> the other trappings of Traveller right in place without much trouble.

Part of the "Traveller feel" is that once you enter jump, your pursuers
can't touch you. And can't be certain what your destination is. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 04:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Jun 13 03:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <20613.013556.3A6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <022301c211a0$29faff70$b50fa118@upstairs> <20613.013556.3A6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020613202549.A30644@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> The time difference between Earth Orbit and the ground is due more to
> the difference the the curvature of space due to *gravity* than to the
> velocity of the satellite. 

No, the velocity effect does dominate (and they have different signs).
The time dilation due to velocity means that clocks in low orbit run
about 300 parts per trillion slower.  The gravitational effect is
measurable, but on the order of 10 times smaller and in the opposite
direction.


> You can actually measure the difference in time rates between the top
> and bottom of a medium tall building. But it takes *very* sensitive
> instruments. The difference is something on the order of a second in a
> few thousand years (or less, anybody have good figures?)

It's pretty easy, actually.  Just gravitational potential divided by
c^2 (to first order).  So a building 100 m tall gives a variation of
about 10^-14.  That's about one second per three million years.

Variation in proper time due to velocity is equally easy to work out:
kinetic energy divided by mc^2.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 04:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Jun 13 03:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Weird email
Message-ID: <200206131054.IIZ03861@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Outlook is a Microsoft programming error.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 05:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Jun 13 04:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <m3y9dki4dz.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAAEIIHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Robert Uhl wrote:

> Utterly stupid to throw away thousands on one day.  
> Well, unless one _makes_ thousands a week, in which 
> go for it.

OTOH, I know a few people around here who would pay 
thousands for a day in space, even if they had to 
borrow to do it! <grin> 

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 05:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 04:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture (was RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting])
In-Reply-To: <3D087D7F.1665.693FFA@localhost>
Message-ID: <20613.031829.8R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 12 Jun 2002 at 17:57, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>> Yes and no. The Mississippian culture of "mound builders" seemed to
>> disappear, but it doesn't seem to have died out because of damage they
>> did to the environment. Climate, religious, and social changes appear
>> to have caused changes in their culture. The people that had made up
>> the former society appear to have continued living in the same areas,
>> they just stopped building the big mounds. 
>> 
>> I think climate, and perhaps religious changes, were the main culprits
>> in the decline of some of the more organized cultures of the American
>> southwest as well.
>
> And these climate changes were never caused by the people chopping down 
> all the trees, and so on?

There was one culture in Mexico(?) that had built up an extensive dam
and irrigation system for their crops over several generations. The dam
failed, and they knew that they couldn't rebuild it in time to save the
harvests (or to have harvest for a number of years following).

They were too populous to survive in their towns without the irrigation
system. So they abandoned everything and scattered back into the
countryside and went back to being hunter/gatherers. 

Luckily, they weren't so populous that they couldn't do this, and they
still remembered the skills. But their population probably declined a
lot...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 05:17:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 04:17:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture (was RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting])
In-Reply-To: <20020613011001.3D273279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20613.032549.8C8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Okay, Ob Trav:  
>
> The Scout Team / Exploratory Traders land on a previously unexplored
> world.  They had come to this system because of rumors of its advanced
> civilization, but when they arrive they find large, but empty cities. 
> Yes, there are natives, but they avoid the cities as taboo and live
> only in small villages no higher than TL3.  When the team explores the
> cities they estimate they were built at TL8, and they can't find any
> concrete evidence of what happened.  When they ask the natives, what
> they are told translates as "the time of the cities was over", "every
> day was Oneday" and "it was time to return to the land."  Now they
> insist that the cities are the homes of demons that will strap you to
> wheels of iron and use you to grind flour for their bread.
>
> So, what happened?  Can the team figure it out?  And,
> although this planet would be perfect for an Advanced base for work in
> this subsector can they get the natives to
> agree, should they try? 

Sounds like the natives got fed up with the rat race. However, unless
that world was *really* nice, you *can't* take a TL8 population and go
"back to the land" without losing 90-99% *or more* of them to
starvation. 

For a different puzzle that looks superficially the same, try to find
the short story (might be a novella) "Forgetfulness" by John W.
Campbell (writing as Don A. Stuart).

A planet with huge high tech cities, all abandoned for thousands of
years. The natives seem to live a simple life, thpigh the explorers
never actually go into any of their dwellings. 

When asked how various bits of the abandoned tech work (it's higher
tech than that of the explorers) he answrs tend to be of the form "We
don't know, we have forgotten". 

I won't spoil the ending. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 05:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 04:19:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture (was RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting])
In-Reply-To: <20020613013712.AE794279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20613.033128.2r2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 06/12/02 at 07:15 PM,  ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
> said:
>
>>Isn't there a bit in the Bible about building on rock vs. sand? 
>>There should be a bit about building one's house in the middle of a
>>flipping forest as well...
>
> Ah, they'd probably already cut all their forests down over there in
> Palistine. <g>

Some of the deforestation of the area was due to over harvesting of
trees. More was due to allowing goats to graze freely. Goats *love*
saplings. 

Goats are thought to have played a factor in the creation of the Sahara
as well.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 05:20:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 04:20:06 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92D851C.5ED10%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20613.034002.4X3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 6/12/02 11:03 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>>> But weren't we talking about cellular packets, not digital voice over 
> wire?
>> 
>> Phone quality voice requires 64kbps, regardless of how you do it. And
>> it usually goes between towers on wired trunks, on a B channel of
>> whatever sort of link is present.
>
> That would be a surprise to most cell companies, as the typical cell phone
> uses an 8k or 13k vocoder. 

Right. The *digitization rate* is 8k samples per second. Times 8 bits
per sample gives 64k *bits* per second. And those 8 bits use coding
tricks to get more dynamic range that the 256 levels that straight
conversion would give.

This follows the rule of sampling at twice the rate of the highest
frequency you want to handle (4 kHz for phone quality voice).

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 05:21:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 04:21:17 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20020613155158.B30041@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20613.034405.3y5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Except that a voice circuit is limited to 4 kHz of bandwdth due to
>> concerns over leakage unltil you make a *big* jump in frequencies
>> (which is what DSL does).
>
> That's pretty much what I said.  4 kHz != 4 kb/s.  4 kHz with
> appropriate maximum noise levels of certain types (i.e. good specs on
> Telstra exchange equipment) gives about 100 kilobits per second as the
> Shannon limit.  Not the 2.4 kb/s claimed in the post to which I was
> responding.

My point is that the sorts of modulations requires to get higher rates
and still use audio frequencies creates *very* undesirable harmonics.
They also require better *lines* than are found in many places. 

The exchange equipment may be capable of 100 kbps, but the *lines*
aren't.

> Locally, Telstra will guarantee 2.4 kHz of bandwidth, and a maximum
> noise level that works out to about 20 kilobits Shannon limit.  Good
> luck trying to get a modem to do 20 kb/s on such a line, though.
> You'd be lucky to get 14 kb/s -- modems do not operate very close to
> the Shannon limit except under contrived circumstances.

The tariffs in much of the US frequently say that they won't guarantee
more than 2400 *baud* on normal residential or business lines. Which
ends complaints until they run into a customer who knows the difference
between bps and baud and points out that his modem *is* only doing 2400
baud. 

I've got an old Telebit T2500 here that only does 15 baud. But it does
up to 18kbps. It uses an *insane* number of signal states (basicly, it
divides the bandwith into several hundred subchannels and ignores ones
that are too noisy). Telebits are *still* the modem of choice for links
in some places like South America and Africa. They can get decent data
rates on lines where "standard" modems can't even maintain a
connection. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 05:22:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 04:22:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b92df14e8a00@[198.123.22.160]>
Message-ID: <20613.035143.8P2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 4:03 PM -0400 6/12/02, Sparky wrote:
>>But all of that leads my thinking to one last question....based on the
>>reasons outlined here, is there any other pseudo-science manner that 168
>>hours is used? Is there some 'strange' coincidence having to do with 168
>>hours for X-boats, for example? That things somehow just 'work out' that
>>it's convenient for travel time to be 168 hours? Or any other such
>>'unintended' consequences in any published material?
>
> Is there any reason why pi happens to be 3.14... ?

Yes. :-)

The fact that pi happens to be the ratio of the circumference to the
diameter of a circle on a plane is a coincidence though.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 05:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Jun 13 04:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <20612.180900.0q2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <3D073DD1.22311.BAD779@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D092A00.8621.2760B4@localhost>

On 12 Jun 2002 at 18:09, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> The old quart (32 oz) is dead, replaced by the 1 liter. I expect 16 oz
> to die out in favor of 1/2 liter eventually.

It's funny, but that's one area where the US gallon is 'better' than 
the Imperial one - a US quart is much closer to a litre than an 
Imperial quart is (inside 3% instead of 13%).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 05:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Jun 13 04:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture (was RE: Cuba analogy [TL in the OTU Setting])
In-Reply-To: <20613.033128.2r2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020613013712.AE794279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D0930D4.18254.420F4F@localhost>

On 13 Jun 2002 at 3:31, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Goats are thought to have played a factor in the creation of the Sahara
> as well.

Well goat herding almost certainly finished the destruction of the 
grain producing land along the North african coast that the goats' 
owners started when they tore up or just stopped maintaining the 
irrigation systems there.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 06:16:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Huxton)
Date: Thu Jun 13 05:16:20 2002
Subject: [TML] TL Robots and the universality of greed
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKENKEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKENKEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <200206131314.28871.red@archonet.com>

On Wednesday 12 Jun 2002 7:32 pm, Terry Carlino wrote:
> All this is based on the premise human greed is universal. The 3 Imperi=
um
> is certainly based on this premise. The fall of communism certainly see=
ms
> to bear out the fact that a system based on socialism, which at its hea=
rt
> says, at least, that people are basically willing to think of others fi=
rst,
> doesn't work in the real world. Too bad.

Not that the Eastern Bloc tried out "real" socialism any more than the We=
st=20
practice "free trade". It was your classic case of appearances being more=
=20
important than reality, as a ruling class got progressively more disconne=
cted=20
from the mass of people.

ObTrav: Important nobles and MegaCorps *cannot* be allowed to fail or app=
ear=20
to fail. Problems are hushed up, crashes bailed out etc - all of which=20
provides plenty of work for our slightly shady Traveller characters.

> Throwing a grenade: I'd just like to say that my opinion on the economi=
c
> model of the Federation in Star Trek is that it doesn't represent a tou=
chy
> feely socialistic society, but rather an ultra capitalistic society whe=
re
> all humans are so wealthy that they just don't bother keeping track of =
the
> small stuff any more.  Any purchase smaller than a starship or planet i=
s
> just chump change. I don't expect Bill Gates balances his checkbook eit=
her.

Star Trek's economics make CT's look like nirvana.

- Richard Huxton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 06:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Thu Jun 13 05:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TL Robots and the universality of greed
In-Reply-To: <200206131314.28871.red@archonet.com>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKENKEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3D0937BF.7407.9347DD@localhost>

On 13 Jun 2002, at 13:14, Richard Huxton wrote:

> > Throwing a grenade: I'd just like to say that my opinion on the economic
> > model of the Federation in Star Trek is that it doesn't represent a
> touchy > feely socialistic society, but rather an ultra capitalistic
> society where > all humans are so wealthy that they just don't bother
> keeping track of the > small stuff any more.  Any purchase smaller than a
> starship or planet is > just chump change. I don't expect Bill Gates
> balances his checkbook either. 

> Star Trek's economics make CT's look like nirvana.

I'd say that the ST economy is supposed to be a nanotech economy (ie 
not based on shortage). The combination of replicator technology and the 
staggering amount of energy available to the individual means that anything 
you want, you can have. In this economy its only things such as Van 
Gough's Sunflowers, Shakespears original manuscript for MacBeth, a 
baseball handled by somebody famous I forget, your childs first tooth 
actually have "value".


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 07:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Huxton)
Date: Thu Jun 13 06:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL Robots and the universality of greed
In-Reply-To: <3D0937BF.7407.9347DD@localhost>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKENKEAAA.carlino@cox.net> <3D0937BF.7407.9347DD@localhost>
Message-ID: <200206131438.53631.red@archonet.com>

On Thursday 13 Jun 2002 1:24 pm, Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> On 13 Jun 2002, at 13:14, Richard Huxton wrote:
> >
> > Star Trek's economics make CT's look like nirvana.
>
> I'd say that the ST economy is supposed to be a nanotech economy (ie
> not based on shortage). The combination of replicator technology and th=
e
> staggering amount of energy available to the individual means that anyt=
hing
> you want, you can have. In this economy its only things such as Van
> Gough's Sunflowers, Shakespears original manuscript for MacBeth, a
> baseball handled by somebody famous I forget, your childs first tooth
> actually have "value".

Nowt against that. I just have difficulties understanding what all the va=
rious=20
traders are trading in. There's only so much fine art to ship between pla=
nets=20
and they're constantly bumping into other cultures with similar technolog=
y=20
who seem very materially minded. Anyway, it's soap-opera, so you can't=20
complain too much.

- Richard Huxton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 07:48:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Jun 13 06:48:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA229E2@USCHM203>

Funny enough, I just realized that in 25 years of playing Traveller, I can
not recall a single instance where any player I knew traveled by low passage
voluntarily.

I would probably make an adjustment to cold sleep rules based on age as
well. A healthy 22 year old can withstand more abuse than a healthy 36 year
old (at least the hangovers seemed to be over much faster). I would give
anyone under 40(physical age, of course) a +1 to survival rolls. 
	I would also make recovering a bit more difficult as well. I'm
basing this on my own experience being under a general anasthesia for over 6
hours, and certain bodily functions simply shut down for a while, namely
ridding the body of wastes. I could see this sort of thing affecting someone
just out of cold sleep for at least a day or so, requiring catheters and
other means to void.
What this would mean for a ship's frozen watch would have to be considered,
though I guess they could go about their business after the battle. At the
very least, though, I'd expect them to be a little shaky and disoriented
immediately after awakening.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 07:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Jun 13 06:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20613.034002.4X3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B92DF18E.5ED9C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/13/02 4:40 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> That would be a surprise to most cell companies, as the typical cell phone
>> uses an 8k or 13k vocoder.
> 
> Right. The *digitization rate* is 8k samples per second. Times 8 bits
> per sample gives 64k *bits* per second. And those 8 bits use coding
> tricks to get more dynamic range that the 256 levels that straight
> conversion would give.
> 
> This follows the rule of sampling at twice the rate of the highest
> frequency you want to handle (4 kHz for phone quality voice).

Got it, thanks.  I seem to remember something about this now.  It's only
been 4 or 5 years since my CDMA classes.

Aren't there also some tricks using ADPCM to decrease bandwidth?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 07:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Jun 13 06:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA229E2@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020613135749.88093.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>

I tend to think of this as it is handled in Alien and
Aliens.  The crew in Alien was sluggish and took a
while to get back to normal.  The marines (or I should
say colonial marines) were up and at-em much quicker,
but even they had a hard time.

Paul

--- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
> Funny enough, I just realized that in 25 years of
> playing Traveller, I can
> not recall a single instance where any player I knew
> traveled by low passage
> voluntarily.
> 
> I would probably make an adjustment to cold sleep
> rules based on age as
> well. A healthy 22 year old can withstand more abuse
> than a healthy 36 year
> old (at least the hangovers seemed to be over much
> faster). I would give
> anyone under 40(physical age, of course) a +1 to
> survival rolls. 
> 	I would also make recovering a bit more difficult
> as well. I'm
> basing this on my own experience being under a
> general anasthesia for over 6
> hours, and certain bodily functions simply shut down
> for a while, namely
> ridding the body of wastes. I could see this sort of
> thing affecting someone
> just out of cold sleep for at least a day or so,
> requiring catheters and
> other means to void.
> What this would mean for a ship's frozen watch would
> have to be considered,
> though I guess they could go about their business
> after the battle. At the
> very least, though, I'd expect them to be a little
> shaky and disoriented
> immediately after awakening.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 08:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Thu Jun 13 07:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Data security... (long, slightly O/T)
Message-ID: <F1186f0f2Pv0JYZOHTb0001ebd8@hotmail.com>

Gentlebeings,

I think I might need to clarify my 'complaint' a little...

I accept (Nb *not* agree) that a nations' security forces (law enforcement 
or the more secretive 'Alphabet Soup' groups[1]) may require access to 
emails in order to (try to) prevent nasty people doing nasty things

**BUT**

when such groups as 'my' local political parties (UK 'local councils' are 
basically "breeding grounds" for our national politicians) or the local 
hospital start spying on me "just in case (I) might tell someone how good 
smoking and drinking are"[2],
AND
there is no way of (legally) finding out what the buggers (literally!) are 
up to[3],
THEN
I get peeved.  Very peeved.  In fact, it almost makes me want to move to a 
less-repressive area.  Like Red Square during the Cuban Missile Crisis...  
At least the Comittee for State Security were honest about what they were 
doing.

Also, most of the groups will only have to answer to themselves - at least 
the security forces have to ask the Government nicely before they can snoop 
on someone...

[1]"Alphabet Soup Groups" = any (normally 'secret') organisation who seem to 
have chosen their name by picking letters from a can of Alphabetti 
Spaghetti; ie CIA, MI5, MI6, KGB, GCHQ, etc.

[2]If I help someone hang themselves, I am an accessory to murder.  
Unfortunately, some of the more militant "public health" groups seem to 
think that promoting anything *they* consider 'Bad For You' (ie smoking, 
drinking or full- or semi-contact sports like kick-boxing) should be 
considered as much of a crime.

[3]Last year, the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA) made it a 
criminal offence not to reveal any passwords or encryption keys (or anything 
else not specifically mentioned) you use to conceal your data from 'public 
view'.
It also made it legal for those groups granted the right to 'snoop' to 
refuse to tell you what data they hold on you... contrary to the Data 
Protection Act 1984 which said that you *must* be told what anyone has about 
you on record, on any storage format (computerized records, or paper).
Fine when it is limited to the security forces - if I worked for MI5 and 
'The Mad Bomber' asked if I had any data on his nefarious activites, I would 
legally be allowed to lie to him since RIPA was passed - which is good.
But when Mrs Busybody of the [insert political party name here] or Dr 
Devidence of Saint Spreeservus Hospital's kidney unit can spy and lie, then 
someone needs the proverbial rocket up their backside.

ObTrav: 'your' PCs know *someone* has been 'reading their mail', but was it 
the Bad Guys?  Or the local Temperance Society, or the "Save Our Squiirils" 
Campaign, or...

Jeff.

Quis ipsos custodes custodiet?

"Is that the Help Desk?  My .sig generator's broken again!"

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 09:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Thu Jun 13 08:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA229E2@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA229E2@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <02061315550907.24202@avlendris>

> I would probably make an adjustment to cold sleep rules based on age as
> well. A healthy 22 year old can withstand more abuse than a healthy 36 year
> old (at least the hangovers seemed to be over much faster). I would give
> anyone under 40(physical age, of course) a +1 to survival rolls.

I always found the thought of Low passage nonsurvival, and more importantly, 
the attitude of the crew (The "Low Lottery" seemed extremely callous to me) 
horrifying. I'm imagining that Low passage is often the resort of the 
desparate, or the foolhardy. 

One scenario I can thik of is the young teenage couple who decide to "blow 
this planet", to elope to the next planet over, a whole new world of 
oportunity, where their parents/friends who dissaprove can't get to them, 
where everything will be better. They save and save in secret, dreaming of 
the day when they get off this mudpile and head for the big lights/quiet 
countryside of their new world. And then, when they finally do make it, they 
wake up and ONE of them is dead! That's got to be the most tragic thing ever!

But conscidering how "easy" a way out taking low passage to the next planet 
would seem to young people on a non-industrial, non-agricultural, poor 
rockball, sitting 1 parsec away from an industrial or garden world, and how 
despite the statistics they would never think it would happen to them. This 
thing must happen all the time! hundreds of times a week in a high pop 
industrial world, with tens of thousands of economic refugees arriving on a 
regular basis. 

You'd think if it were that dangerous, it would be banned...

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 09:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Jun 13 08:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <20613.021405.9b3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020613050055.A10042@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020613080402.009ec6b0@mindspring.com>

At 02:14 AM 6/13/02 -0800, you wrote:

> >> OK, would any of you part with your hoarded pennies and buy this if it 
> was
> >> produced?  It would be for GT specifically, but just a fun look at the
> >> glossed over portion of Traveller.
>
>Post in your LiveJournal and see if anybody is interested. <g>

That I shall do, but I thought I'd ask a group of drooling Traveller 
fantatics first.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 09:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 08:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chez Jump (was Silly Question)
References: <F189H2JZZJfwTXSRdZq0001d238@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D08BF2D.30200@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
> 
>     "Sure there should be a cross section of people travelling. You can
> have fun with all sorts of folks, just like it real life."
> 
> 
> Mr. Reddoch,
> 
>     One of the cheaper Whipsnadian past-times is people watching at 
> whatever mall happens to be close to the hotel.  Purchase a cup of 
> coffee, add a newspaper, and watch the hours fly by.
> 
>     "Let's see, the passengers that have booked passage on the /Mae Lee/ 
> for her next voyage are:  a media company VP returning from a sales
> trip,..."
> 
>     She lost THE account for her company, totally fumbled the affair.  
> She and the news of this disaster will arrive home at the same time.  
> She gets wound tighter and tighter and tighter as the jump progresses.
>

<sarcastic> Oh, THANKS Larsen! We just NEED some OTHER devious soul 
giving Eris ideas! Like he needs *help*.</sarcasm>

We'll expect these to pop up, serial numbers awfully vague, sometime in 
the future, now.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 09:51:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Thu Jun 13 08:51:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Freedom of speech in the Imperium
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020612164545.009f68c0@mailhost.efn.org> <m3lm9k80dy.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <001701c212f2$0e7a5900$1c577b83@Gideon>

<quote>

> > Unless one happens to be using the original CT rules for low passage
> > (throw 5+ to survive).  Even assuming the competent doctor in
> > attendance for a DM of +1, that's a roll of 2, 3 or 4 on 2D, which is
> > 6 in 36, or a 1 in 6 chance that you'll wake up dead.
>
> GT's much better about this.  Automatic if a doctor or electrical
> technician with 10+ is present.

> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>

</quote>

I stand behind my opinion that GT is incorrectly named.  It should have been
called GURPS: Third Imperium...

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 10:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun 13 09:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Data security... (long, slightly O/T)
Message-ID: <132.f31ed60.2a3a2556@aol.com>

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In a message dated 13/06/02 15:27:32 GMT Daylight Time, jeffrowse@hotmail.com 
writes:

<SNIP>
> If I help someone hang themselves, I am an accessory to murder.

I think you mean guilty of assisting a suicide - maximum sentence 14 years.
  
<SNIP>
> 
> contrary to the Data Protection Act 1984 which said that you *must* be told 
> what anyone has about you on record, on any storage format (computerized 
> records, or paper).
> 
<SNIP>

Now superceded by the Data Protection Act 1998.

Sorry, I'm having an attack of pedantry :)

Charles

"Rule One: Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly 
smiling men!"

Terry Pratchett, The Thief of Time

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 13/06/02 15:27:32 GMT Daylight Time, jeffrowse@hotmail.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
&lt;SNIP&gt;<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">If I help someone hang themselves, I am an accessory to murder.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I think you mean guilty of assisting a suicide - maximum sentence 14 years.<BR>
&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">&lt;SNIP&gt;<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
contrary to the Data Protection Act 1984 which said that you *must* be told what anyone has about you on record, on any storage format (computerized records, or paper).<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&lt;SNIP&gt;<BR>
<BR>
Now superceded by the Data Protection Act 1998.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, I'm having an attack of pedantry :)<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
"Rule One: Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly smiling men!"<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett, The Thief of Time</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 10:44:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 09:44:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <3D080FA5.CC3D2346@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1023986634.7031.ajackson@ping>

David Shayne writes:
> 
> First off fifty years is far too long a time frame.

Why is it too long a time frame?  Sure, it implies that it's incredibly
expensive to build a robotic factory, but the existing growth rate in Traveller
implies that upgrading the infrastructure _is_ incredibly expensive.
 Industrial robots 
> are the tools youd need to do the job even without robotics plus
> control systems and some minor articulation bits to make up for no human
> to move things around. A robotic factory will not therefor require
> significantly more time and resources to build than a non robotic
> factory.

So?  Did I say a non-robotic factory would take less than 50 years?

> > First of all, traveller fusion is not effectively free given the things
> > Traveller has to use energy on. 
> 
> Such as what? What power requirements do people have that cannot be met
> by cheap, clean, and abundant fusion?

Construction of high tech machines, which are apparently very expensive in
terms of energy.

> But when your able to manufacture production capacity to order this
> ceases to be a limitation.

Yeah, but in Traveller you can't do that.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 10:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 09:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA229E2@USCHM203> <02061315550907.24202@avlendris>
Message-ID: <3D08CE0F.3040005@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Brian Caball wrote:

> You'd think if it were that dangerous, it would be banned...

Or rather, if it were that dangerous, no onne would waste the frikin' 
money to stick 'em in their ships.

Another case where slavish adherence to (a really stupid) canon concept 
turns things into an absolutely absurd concept.

If low berths are that dangerous, killing 18% of all of those who enter, 
then there would be a mutiny the first time a naval vessel tried to 
implement a 'frozen watch'.

Alas, this is endemic amongst CT purists. The CT rules are far more 
cartoonish than later editions, with things like the low berth fatality 
rate.

(though, I guess if you managed to get through a *character* generation 
process that whacks a good proportion of characters you try to create, 
you can swallow anything.

Here, "we're playing this cool new game. Lets start rolling characters! 
<roll roll roll> Rats, this one died, gotta start over. <roll roll roll> 
Damn, it happened again! <roll roll roll> What the f--!!"

At this point the GM either says "Screw this, ignore the death rolls" or 
"Screw this, lets play D&D")

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 11:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 10:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Risks of Low Passage (was: Freedom of speech in the  Imperium)
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020612213701.009f7c90@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <3D08D0D7.1010904@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Kelly St.Clair wrote:

> As it stands in Book 2, the only persons who will travel by low berth 
> are those who are willing to pay Cr1000 for the privilege of being met 
> at the terminal by the purser, who will hand them a revolver with one 
> chamber loaded and insist that they place it to their temple and pull 
> the trigger before boarding.  And should there /not/ be a competent 
> medic present, or if the passenger is of even slightly below average 
> health (End 6 or less), their odds of not surviving nearly double - 10 
> in 36, or almost 1 in 3.  In which case, the purser loads two chambers.
> 
> This sort of thing would tend to cut down on casual/tourist travel.
> 
> P.S.:  Does anyone have an idea how these numbers compare to the typical 
> "breakage" in the people-smuggling business?

These numbers are higher than that by several orders of magnitude. 
Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people sneak across the 
Mexican border in Arizona. The Border Patrol *caught* 350,000 in 2000.

Deaths due to various causes, mostly auto accidents and dehydration 
crossing the desert kill less than a hundred a year.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 11:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew W. Helton)
Date: Thu Jun 13 10:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Data security...Sometimes it's a jungle out there...
In-Reply-To: <132.f31ed60.2a3a2556@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000201c212fd$50e695f0$0300a8c0@acheronlv426>

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------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C212D3.68108DF0--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 11:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Jun 13 10:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Great picture
Message-ID: <200206131729.IJN01861@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

They've taken a really wide view of the Eagle Nebula, and the 
pics are posted at: 
http://www.noao.edu/image_gallery/html/im0725.html

Really sweet.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 11:36:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bob Kondrk)
Date: Thu Jun 13 10:36:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Great picture
In-Reply-To: <200206131729.IJN01861@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200206131729.IJN01861@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <1023989759.3d08d7ff2dfd8@mail.travellercentral.com>

Quoting "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>:

> They've taken a really wide view of the Eagle Nebula, and the 
> pics are posted at: 
> http://www.noao.edu/image_gallery/html/im0725.html
> 
> Really sweet.

Ooo...that *is* nice.  Thanks for the link, John. :)

-- 
Bob K.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 11:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Jun 13 10:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Environment and Culture
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEDBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
>
>IAC, there are dangers almost everywhere. Down here it's huricanes and
>tornados. In the midwest it's tornados. In river valleys it's floods.
>In California, it's earthquakes. Around volcanos, it's lava. Up north,
>it's blizzards.

Well, almost everywhere the biggest danger is people driving cars.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 11:41:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Jun 13 10:41:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEDBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
>Well goat herding almost certainly finished the destruction of the 
>grain producing land along the North african coast that the goats' 
>owners started when they tore up or just stopped maintaining the 
>irrigation systems there.

Carthago delindum esse, or words to that effect.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 11:42:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Jun 13 10:42:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Santanocheev
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEDBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
>
>Has anyone else put all the following together?

Many of us did, about 20 years ago.

>        - "Norris' problem was that Santanocheev had the role _Norris_
wanted. Santy
>was Sector admiral and had command of all Imperial forces in the sector."
>(also Glenn)

Not me; somebody else wrote that -- but I generally concur.

>First, N and S work together in NI. N realises that S is a social-climbing
>buffoon. S rises to the top more quickly, and N creates that faulty
>prediction to shake S's position. N then can't do any more from inside, as
>he has to take over the reigns [deliberate pun] at home. When S becomes
>Sector Admiral, N decides he has to get S out of the way or else he'll
>stuff everything up. N petitions Strep for a warrant back in 1104 (as per
>Digest 9).

Or:  Norris and Santanocheev work together in INI.  Norris, as a younger
child, is unlikely to take the title, so he sets his sights on high naval
rank.  He worms his way into Santanocheev's confidence and then screws him
with a wrong intelligence assessment in an attempt to destroy Santanocheev's
credibility.  Santanocheev's career nevertheless survives, and meanwhile the
Duke and heir die, so Norris gets what he always really wanted, the duchy.

Norris now sees Santanocheev as a threat, because Santanocheev may have
figured out the earlier plot, and will be seeking revenge -- or Santanocheev
may believe that Norris is still gunning for him, and will seek to protect
himself by neutralizing Norris.  Norris gets his old friends in INI to set
Santanocheev up again concerning Zhodani war aims.  Santanocheev distrusts
everyone in INI, and sets up his own intelligence service, but ONI has a
difficult time getting on its feet because of INI's interference.  By the
time Santanocheev figures out that the Zhodani are in fact going to attack,
it's too late to call for reinforcements.  Norris and INI, looking at real
intelligence analyses, expect the Zhodani attack, and call for
reinforcements and a warrant to allow Norris to replace Santanocheev.

By becoming the hero of the Fifth Frontier War, Norris can advance beyond
his earlier ambition and make a bid for sector duke and, later, first
Archduke of Deneb.  Strephon had better watch his back.  What are the
connections between Norris and Dulinor?

Questions for the truly paranoid:  Did someone whack Norris' father and
brother?  If so, was it more likely Norris, to get the title, or
Santanocheev, to get Norris out of the Navy?

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 11:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Jun 13 10:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chez Jump (was Silly Question)
In-Reply-To: <3D08BF2D.30200@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020613174523.577A527CAE@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/13/02 at 08:50 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>> "Let's see, the passengers that have booked passage on
>> the /Mae Lee/ for her next voyage are:  a media company
>> VP returning from a sales trip,..."
>>
>>     She lost THE account for her company, totally fumbled
>> the affair.  She and the news of this disaster will
>> arrive home at the same time.  She gets wound tighter and
>> tighter and tighter as the jump progresses.


><sarcastic> Oh, THANKS Larsen!  We just NEED some OTHER
>devious soul giving Eris ideas!  Like he needs
>*help*.</sarcasm>
 
>We'll expect these to pop up, serial numbers awfully vague,
>sometime in the future, now.

At least, you won't be surprised when you do. <g>

BTW, this conversation reminded me of Sir and Lady Gunt's
daughter...you remember, the pre-adolecent that kept sparying black
paint on the security cameras aboard the liner on the way out from
Argent?  

Oh, and Bruce...remember your company signed a 100,000 mark contract
with Sir Gunt?  Ya'll contracted to deliver his package of papers to
Montrose, and just because the ship that your couriers took
disappeared (along with the players) doesn't mean Sir Gunt isn't going
to expect *you* to
fullfill the terms of that contract...which means making
delivery on time or forfeiting the money and paying
penalties.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 11:49:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 10:49:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture
Message-ID: <memo.226578@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEDBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Delenda est Carthago.

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 11:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Jun 13 10:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Data security... (long, slightly O/T)
In-Reply-To: <F1186f0f2Pv0JYZOHTb0001ebd8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020613175039.69D7727CB3@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/13/02 at 02:25 PM,  "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> said:

>ObTrav: 'your' PCs know *someone* has been 'reading their mail', but
>was it  the Bad Guys?  Or the local Temperance Society, or the "Save
>Our Squiirils"  Campaign, or...

...or a teenager hacker with a crush on your group's "hot" pilot.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 12:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Jun 13 11:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy question of the day
Message-ID: <200206131810.IJN10419@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

We were talking about the effect of supernova (or even 
classical novae, or cataclysmic variables), and I was looking 
at a picture of 30 Doradus, which has gaseous filaments 400 
to 1800 LY long. An event that large (it's 30 times larger 
than the Crab Nebula) -- would it have greater effects than 
we've previously concluded if it blew in the middle of the 
Imperium?
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 12:21:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Jun 13 11:21:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <3D092A00.8621.2760B4@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020613182021.84DDC27C8C@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/13/02 at 11:25 PM,  "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
said:

>On 12 Jun 2002 at 18:09, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>> The old quart (32 oz) is dead, replaced by the 1 liter. I expect 16 oz
>> to die out in favor of 1/2 liter eventually.

>It's funny, but that's one area where the US gallon is 'better' than 
>the Imperial one - a US quart is much closer to a litre than an 
>Imperial quart is (inside 3% instead of 13%).

Yep, over here a quart is 32 fld. oz. and a liter is something like
33.5 fld. oz. We consider the extra ounce or two to be lagniappe, not
an assault on our weights and measures. <g>  I often think we should
just jiggle the fluid ounce so that there are exactly 32 in a liter,
the inch to be exactly 2.5 cm, and the pound to be exactly 2 kg...ha!

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 12:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun 13 11:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chez Jump (was Silly Question)
In-Reply-To: <20020613174523.577A527CAE@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <3D08BF2D.30200@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3D089EAF.27991.AD8416@localhost>

Eris I got the feeling you were an evil GM but this is just mean.  I 
am glade I left the company before that :  )
> 
> Oh, and Bruce...remember your company signed a 100,000 mark contract
> with Sir Gunt?  Ya'll contracted to deliver his package of papers to
> Montrose, and just because the ship that your couriers took
> disappeared (along with the players) doesn't mean Sir Gunt isn't going
> to expect *you* to fullfill the terms of that contract...which means
> making delivery on time or forfeiting the money and paying penalties.
> 
> Eris
> 
> -- 
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 12:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Jun 13 11:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture
In-Reply-To: <memo.226578@cix.compulink.co.uk>
References: <memo.226578@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <m3elfbxbwj.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson) writes:
>
> Delenda est Carthago.

Carthago delenda est was how I learnt it.  A quick Googling shows both
variations.  Ho very ho hum.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Ingni Ferroque--By Fire and the Sword

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 12:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Jun 13 11:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <20020613182021.84DDC27C8C@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020613182021.84DDC27C8C@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3adpzxbox.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com> writes:
>
> I often think we should just jiggle the fluid ounce so that there
> are exactly 32 in a liter, the inch to be exactly 2.5 cm, and the
> pound to be exactly 2 kg

But then the fluid ounce of water would no longer weigh an ounce.
What I think we need to do is adjust the pint to be exactly a pound
(as it's suppose to) so that a gallon is eight pounds (as it's
supposed to be), adjust the mile to be a multiple of a large power of
twelve and make the cup some appropriate number of cubic inches (12 or
16 would do nicely).  Done right, most signage and tools would be
close enough for government work.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Skill without imagination is craftsmanship and gives us many useful
objects such as wickerwork picnic baskets.  Imagination without skill
gives us modern art.                                   --Tom Stoppard

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 13:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 12:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chez Jump (was Silly Question)
References: <20020613174523.577A527CAE@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D08EE85.6090504@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> On 06/13/02 at 08:50 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> said:

> Oh, and Bruce...remember your company signed a 100,000 mark contract
> with Sir Gunt?  Ya'll contracted to deliver his package of papers to
> Montrose, and just because the ship that your couriers took
> disappeared (along with the players) doesn't mean Sir Gunt isn't going
> to expect *you* to
> fullfill the terms of that contract...which means making
> delivery on time or forfeiting the money and paying
> penalties.

If our contract didn't have a clause indemnifying us for such 
'circumstances beyond our control' I'll strangle our lawyers when we get 
back, no matter who cute they are...

We may have to return the money, but penalties, no way!

He understood we did not have a ship with which to undertake that 
voyage, and that they would be taking commercial transport.

Finally, we don't *KNOW* anything.

All we know is that the ship did not arrive at Sequi on schedule. This 
does NOT mean that the papers have not been delivered, or in fact are 
not en-route, and we'll not know that until Sir Gunt's agents on the far 
end are able to give *him* the news that his stuff has not arrived on 
time. Or something definite is learned about the 'Satago'. Right now the 
'Satago' is *still* only listed as overdue, AFAIK.

So *there*! At most the money will go into escrow pending mediation of 
any problem, if any such arises.

Thbbt!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 13:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Jun 13 12:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <m3adpzxbox.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020613191802.90734.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

Yes, but as they say, A rose by any other name
wouldn't smell as sweet.

Leave it hodge podge.  Otherwise those folks across
the pond might mistakenly think we do have some kind
of order over here.

--- "Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com> writes:
> >
> > I often think we should just jiggle the fluid
> ounce so that there
> > are exactly 32 in a liter, the inch to be exactly
> 2.5 cm, and the
> > pound to be exactly 2 kg
> 
> But then the fluid ounce of water would no longer
> weigh an ounce.
> What I think we need to do is adjust the pint to be
> exactly a pound
> (as it's suppose to) so that a gallon is eight
> pounds (as it's
> supposed to be), adjust the mile to be a multiple of
> a large power of
> twelve and make the cup some appropriate number of
> cubic inches (12 or
> 16 would do nicely).  Done right, most signage and
> tools would be
> close enough for government work.
> 
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Skill without imagination is craftsmanship and gives
> us many useful
> objects such as wickerwork picnic baskets. 
> Imagination without skill
> gives us modern art.                                
>   --Tom Stoppard
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 13:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Jun 13 12:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture
In-Reply-To: <m3elfbxbwj.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020613193542.2E54627CB1@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/13/02 at 12:37 PM,  ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
said:

>mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson) writes: >
>> Delenda est Carthago.

>Carthago delenda est was how I learnt it.  A quick Googling shows
>both variations.  Ho very ho hum.

Being a *real* American I don't speak any languages (if I said I spoke
English our friends across the pond would be quick to disagree <g>),
so I can only guess at the meaning...hum, would it be "The goats ate
Carthage?" <g>

I still think Ganglich would have as many variations across the
Imperium as English does across this planet.   So, a Reginian speaking
to a Terran in ganglich would be like a Highlander trying to carry on
a conversation with a California Valley Girl...<g>...most of the words
are the same, but the pronouncation, slang, and changed meanings make
them effectively different spoken languages.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 13:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Jun 13 12:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chez Jump (was Silly Question)
In-Reply-To: <3D089EAF.27991.AD8416@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020613194000.D3294279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/13/02 at 01:31 PM,  timothyreynolds@earthlink.net said:

>Eris I got the feeling you were an evil GM but this is just mean.  I 
>am glade I left the company before that :  )

>> Oh, and Bruce...remember your company signed a 100,000 mark contract
>> with Sir Gunt?  Ya'll contracted to deliver his package of papers to
>> Montrose, and just because the ship that your couriers took
>> disappeared (along with the players) doesn't mean Sir Gunt isn't going
>> to expect *you* to fullfill the terms of that contract...which means
>> making delivery on time or forfeiting the money and paying penalties.

Me? Mean? Nah!!  

They'll have an opportunity to honor the contract. They still have
time to get to Montrose on time if they hurry, and Sir Gunt might have
a duplicate set of papers...or they might have to go hunting for the
missing ship, but *that* would be mean. <g>


Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 13:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Jun 13 12:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
Message-ID: <F259hkeTxtfkdpczeyi00004576@hotmail.com>

From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

     "Or rather, if it were that dangerous, no onne would waste the
frikin' money to stick 'em in their ships."

     "Another case where slavish adherence to (a really stupid) canon
concept turns things into an absolutely absurd concept."


Mr. Johnson,

     Agreed.  Low berth fatalities are just another example of the clunky 
metagaming concept, like the "McClellen is a dope" rules in any Antietam 
game or the fact that an Empress Marava can't make her mortgage payments 
without speculative and/or illegal trade.
     The Low Lottery was most likely tacked on to produce a certain in-game 
effect, but the "rivets" show too easily.  I'd guess the desired effect was 
the GM's monetary control over the PCs.  Traveller seems to have a lot of 
these "power of the purse" quirks.  By making the low berth a survival crap 
shoot, PCs will be loathe to use it to travel and thus easier prey for a 
GM's money making schemes if only to pay for safer middle passages.
     Of course, low berth fatalities could be yet another wee bit of "proof" 
for my "The OTU As A Subset Of CT" theorem.  As a GM, I generally ignored 
low berth survival rolls unless the plot called for it.  IMTU, low berths 
are shipped from "slot shop" to "slot shop" like cargo.  In the Imperium at 
least, people have themselves frozen and mailed hither and yon all the time.
     Death by low berth could fit rather well in a Long Night/Hard Times 
style TU, one without a strong interstellar state enforcing standards and 
prosecuting murders.  When forced by circumstance to use low berths, my PCs 
would often keep 2 of their members (one, the medic) awake as middle 
passengers while the rest of the party froze out.
     Oh, my apologies for giving Mr. Reddoch even more tools with which to 
torture you and your party.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

"Wonder Twin Powers Activiate! Form of a GORILLA! Shape of an ICEPICK!"
"AAAHAHAHAHAHAHAOOOOOGOGOGOGGOGOOOOOGOGOSAHAHAAHAHAHAHRRRHHRHGHGHUCKK!"

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 13:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Jun 13 12:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chez Jump (was Silly Question)
In-Reply-To: <3D08EE85.6090504@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020613195006.720BA279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/13/02 at 12:12 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>If our contract didn't have a clause indemnifying us for such 
>'circumstances beyond our control' I'll strangle our lawyers when we
>get  back, no matter who cute they are...

...and they *are* cute! And did you notice that the one that prepared
the contract is a platinum blonde? <g>

>We may have to return the money, but penalties, no way!

>He understood we did not have a ship with which to undertake that 
>voyage, and that they would be taking commercial transport.

>Finally, we don't *KNOW* anything.

>All we know is that the ship did not arrive at Sequi on schedule.
>This  does NOT mean that the papers have not been delivered, or in
>fact are  not en-route, and we'll not know that until Sir Gunt's
>agents on the far  end are able to give *him* the news that his stuff
>has not arrived on  time. Or something definite is learned about the
>'Satago'. Right now the  'Satago' is *still* only listed as overdue,
>AFAIK.

>So *there*! At most the money will go into escrow pending mediation
>of  any problem, if any such arises.

>Thbbt!

But you really have to make a "good faith effort" to fullfill the
terms of the contract, and you still have time to get the /Mae Lee/ to
Montrose...if you hurry.  

Oh, and do you remember those folks that tried to steal title of the
ship from you at the probate hearing? Do you think one of them might
buy up Sir Gunt's contract and try to tie you up in court until you
run out of funds?  OTOH you do have a friend in a certain intellegence
agency that might help you avoid *that* fate, but that would make you
even more indebted to her than you are now, hum?  And here you are
playing around in a hurricane while all these other "plots" are
building around you! <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 13:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu Jun 13 12:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
References: <20020613101347.5795F27C6F@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D08F74D.7331E234@ameritech.net>

> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 15:09:59 +1000
> From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

> Well, we know that even TTL F AI (at least in the Imperium) isn't
> human-level or even particularly close. 

From Book 8 Robots page 20:

  "Tech Level 15: Computers become "alive", .... For example, the 
personality of a dead individual can be programmed into a computer,
allowing one to "converse" with the dead individual (via the computer)
as if that individual were still alive."

So TL 15 AI seems awfully close to me. OTOH "True creativity and
unprogrammed inspirtion...." is restricted to TL 16+ which tends
to lend support to your thesis. It's all in how you read between
the lines.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 13:57:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Jun 13 12:57:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
In-Reply-To: <F259hkeTxtfkdpczeyi00004576@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020613195640.BC546279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/13/02 at 07:44 PM,  "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> said:

>  Death by low berth could fit rather well in a Long Night/Hard Times
> style TU, one without a strong interstellar state enforcing
>standards and  prosecuting murders.  When forced by circumstance to
>use low berths, my PCs  would often keep 2 of their members (one, the
>medic) awake as middle  passengers while the rest of the party froze
>out.

>     Oh, my apologies for giving Mr. Reddoch even more tools with
>which to  torture you and your party.

Don't apologize, send more! <g>

As I posted, I make the chance of death in low berth more like
1/46,000 under normal circumstances. With those odds I usually don't
even roll, except when called for by plot or under abnormal
circumstances. 

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 14:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Erich Brackmann)
Date: Thu Jun 13 13:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Santanocheev
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEDBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <OGBBICAMOLJHJILPIOEPCEPFCAAA.kaukgannir@comcast.net>

Questions for the truly paranoid:  Did someone whack Norris' father and
brother?  If so, was it more likely Norris, to get the title, or
Santanocheev, to get Norris out of the Navy?

--Glenn
	Oh, I liked that one.  Now that's worthy of Barrayaran politics. :)
		- Erich


 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 14:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun 13 13:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
In-Reply-To: <20020613175004.D43AE27CAF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17Iatv-0000h5-00@blount.mail.mindspring.net>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

> Brian Caball wrote:
> 
> > You'd think if it were that dangerous, it would be banned...
> 
> Or rather, if it were that dangerous, no onne would waste the frikin'
> money to stick 'em in their ships.
> 
> Another case where slavish adherence to (a really stupid) canon
> concept turns things into an absolutely absurd concept.
> 
> If low berths are that dangerous, killing 18% of all of those who
> enter, then there would be a mutiny the first time a naval vessel
> tried to implement a 'frozen watch'.
> 
> Alas, this is endemic amongst CT purists. The CT rules are far more
> cartoonish than later editions, with things like the low berth
> fatality rate.

Very much agreed.  The only two answers to the question of low 
berth risks that make sense are either the GT solution (with a 
medic supervising revival there is 0 risk) or the one someone 
posted recently suggesting that it be made an Easy task, so the 
risk is exceedingly minimal with a medic supervising (a 1 in 1236 
chance of non-fatal injury is high but is still likely something people 
would use, a 1 in 6 chance of death isn't much better than the 
survival rate on the slave ships going from Africa to the US in the 
mid 19th century).  I liked the way the folks at DGP handled the 
low lottery comments in the CT rulebook.  They stated that this 
was a something that occurred back during the harsh days around 
the end of the Long Night and was now only a disturbing historical 
curiosity.

Even in MT, the rules made low berths *far* safer (low berth travel 
required a Routine (fateful) task.  With someone with Medic 1, and 
an Edu of 5 there was a 1 in 6 chance of some problem, but a 
11/12 chance that the problem would be nothing more than minor 
injuries and maybe a minor loss of dexterity for a couple of weeks 
(and a 1 in 12 chance that the problem would be non-fatal but 
would require significant medical attention).  This is still *far* too 
risky to make sense, except that any reasonable medic would use 
a Cautious task and reduce the risk to near 0. 

OTOH, if you travel by low berth on a tramp freighter rather than a 
licensed starliner, you can end up:

1) On a planet other than you destination, possibly sold into 
indentured servitude (it's not legal, but I'm guessing it will happen 
out on the fringe).  

2) One another planet because the ship breaks down and you get 
woken up wherever it goes for repairs.

2 will be *far* more common that 1, but urban legends about 1 will 
undoubtedly be *extremely* common (as will stories about people 
waking up w/o their kidneys and a note to call a medic written on 
the open door of the cold sleep pod).

Regardless, under any reasonable rules system, low berth travel 
would be the choice for the middle class in traveller.  If the 1,000 
Cr/month that starship crew are paid is anything close to average 
middle class wages, then a family of 4 with two working members 
could likely afford such a round trip ticket every 5 years or so 
(saving 7% of your annual income towards a trip seems perfectly 
reasonable).  

So, going back to the debate about how much travel there is in the 
Imperium, I'm guessing that there is a good bit, but that it is mostly 
by low berth.  The idea that members of the middle class who don't 
work on starships or in the military take maybe 1 trip every 5 years 
as a vacation, while the some of the rich are traveling multiple 
times a year (once a month for TAS members) very much fits my 
vision of the Imperium.  I simply don't see most star travel as 
something so rare that most planet-dwelling citizens don't know 
anyone who has done it, and I think the rules support my view of 
the Imperium.

In essence, I see interstellar travel in the Imperium much like trans 
Atlantic (or trans Pacific) travel in our world - *very* common, but 
most members of the middle class don't do it more often than every 
few years. 

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com   

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 14:10:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun 13 13:10:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech
In-Reply-To: <20020613101344.81F0C27C6E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17Iatx-0000h5-00@blount.mail.mindspring.net>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

> David Shayne wrote:
> > I'll grant that. However these are the situations that drive people
> > nuts too. No reason to suspect that decent AI (say that available to
> > the 3I on or about 1100) should have an inordinate problem on this
> > score.
> 
> Well, we know that even TTL F AI (at least in the Imperium) isn't
> human-level or even particularly close.  By human-level, I mean here
> average human, not genius.  There will be *many* problems that the AI
> can't handle.  Some of them will be near the edge of what the
> smartest, most expert humans can handle.

From Book 8 and a close examination of the TL table in MT we find 
that robots at TL 12+ can understand ordinary speech and deal 
with slang and making inferences (ie the robot butler knows that 
"Take the dog out" means "take the dog out for a walk" and not 
"throw the dog in the recycle bin".  Such robots are also capable of 
working as unassisted grav vehicle pilots and doctors.  

My reading of this is while these robots won't make terribly 
interesting conversation and probably aren't in the least bit creative, 
but it sounds like they are up for handling all forms of low level 
repair and tech support.  Sure, there will be problems they can't 
handle, but those will be the sorts of tough problems that don't 
occur on a daily basis.  A TL 15 factory will need human oversight, 
but a factory that would employ several thousand people at our TL 
might only require 3-10 highly trained technicians at TL 15. That's a 
truly vast savings in personnel and training time.  I don't agree that 
goods will be effectively free, but with *really* cheap energy (except 
for military hardware and space ship drives, nothing uses terribly 
much energy in Traveller).  However, I'm guessing that most factory-
made goods will be lots cheaper than they are now.

I also know that there have been canonical mentions of Type A 
starports (ie ones capable of *building* star ships) that are fully 
automated with a population of only a few dozen people on world.
I wish I could find the reference for those starports, I remember 
reading it, but am not certain where I read it, possibly an article in 
Challenge...

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com         



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 14:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun 13 13:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Data security... (long, slightly O/T)
In-Reply-To: <20020613190105.8D5F427CC0@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17Ib9N-0003cV-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>

"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
> On 06/13/02 at 02:25 PM,  "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> said:
> 
> >ObTrav: 'your' PCs know *someone* has been 'reading their mail', but
> >was it  the Bad Guys?  Or the local Temperance Society, or the "Save
> >Our Squiirils"  Campaign, or...
> 
> ...or a teenager hacker with a crush on your group's "hot" pilot.

Shades of "Cowboy Bebop" (a wonderful SF anime with a 
significantly Traveller feel).  There's lots of good stuff that can be 
borrowed from Cowboy Bebop into any Traveller campaign.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 14:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu Jun 13 13:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
References: <20020613175006.9AFEA27CB1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D08FF67.DC7F88A6@ameritech.net>

> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:43:54 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>

> David Shayne writes:
> >
> > First off fifty years is far too long a time frame.
> 
> Why is it too long a time frame? 

Because in the real world it just doesn't take that long to build
factories. Even in Traveller it doesn't take anywhere near that long.

From World Tamer's Handbook page 29 we find that a unit of TL 15 Heavy 
Industrial Capital (capable of constructing more Industrial capital) 
costs Cr 126000. This same unit of capital produces Cr 5000 worth of 
goods per month. According to Vampire Fleets a TL 13a High Autonomous
robot brain with an Int statistic of 4 costs Cr 300000 add say Cr10000
for chassis etc and we have a total cost of 126000+300000+10000 = Cr 
436000.

So our Robotic factory with which produces Cr5000 worth of goods per 
month can duplicate itself in 436000/5000 = 87.2 months or 7 years 
and 3.2 months. Adding in the 20 year replacement rule to account for 
depreciation and it takes 90.688 months or just over 7 1/2 years to
complete a second factory. Admitedly higher than my estimate of 5
years but still far short of the fifty you seem to think reasonable.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 14:32:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Thu Jun 13 13:32:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <20613.013556.3A6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Jun 13, 2002 01:35:56 AM
Message-ID: <200206131933.g5DJXKq07430@localhost.uia.net>

> For the time dilation due to velocity, you have to get very close to
> the speed of light for the effects to be noticable. 
> 
> At 1% of c, time is running at 99.9949998% of the rate at rest.
> At 10% of c, it's 99.4987437%
> At 20% of c, it's 97.9795897%
> etc. 

I wrote a small basic/dos program which does these calcs
in case anybody wants a copy. Actually, that's not quite
accurate of me... the program basically takes some "g"
thrust and duration of voyage as inputs and calculates
various outputs including subjective (shipboard time).
A bit confusing to explain, but if anybody wants a copy,
you can grab it at:

http://www.elektrasystems.net/~jimv/stl1.zip

>Using already "established" practice (from the Mars Landers), the local
>solar day would be referred to as a "sol". 
>
>This avoids confusion with the standard 24 hour day.
>
>Likewise, you don't want to call the subdivisions of the sol "hours",
>because that could lead to *deadly* mistakes. Is that tank of air good
>for 8 standard hours or 8 *local* hours? 
> 
>I've been thinking about "peri" (peer-e" from "period" as a possible
>term. Though I also like the "dura" (derived from "duration?) that
>David Brin had the locals using in the last Uplift War book.

In the Harrison Chapters (a somewhat travelleresque story I
wrote years ago, http://www.elektrasystems.net/~jimv/har.htm),
I ran up against this same problem and decided to use "centims"
(or "cents") as the basic unit of local time, each being 1/100 of
a sol (a local day). So on a world with a 20 hour sol, 1 cent =
12 minutes, 1 mil = 72 seconds, and 1 decimil = 7.2 seconds. It's
pretty easy to keep going with this.

Normally, the day would begin on a world at mean sunrise at
some given location, usually the capital city, so if a character
said something like "Let's meet at 50," that would equate to 6pm
(if you assume that 6am is mean sun-up, and if you assume you're
near the capital). Away from the capital, sunrise would be different.
On the other side of the planet, sun-up could occur at 50. But time
is usually absolute. If it's 50 in one location on the planet, it's
50 everywhere. There's none of this time-zone stuff unless the world
decided to set that up for some reason (a few would, I imagine).

The hard part is that the world would likely have it's own calendar,
and this would necessarily conflict with the standard calendar, but
locally-speaking, the local calendar would be more useful. The
Imperial calendar would only be used by people concerned with
interstellar trade, news, etc. The average person would rarely come
into contact with it aside from the interstellar segment of the
evening news. Terms like Sol & Annum could apply for the local
day & year with other terms like Lune or Quarter or whatever
applying for intermediate periods.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu Jun 13 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Data security... (long, slightly O/T)
In-Reply-To: <E17Ib9N-0003cV-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206131332370.21468-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Shades of "Cowboy Bebop" (a wonderful SF anime with a 
> significantly Traveller feel).  There's lots of good stuff that can be 
> borrowed from Cowboy Bebop into any Traveller campaign.

ooh yeah!  that's one of my faves!

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 14:34:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 13:34:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture
Message-ID: <memo.230693@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020613193542.2E54627CB1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Delenda est Carthago = Carthage must be destroyed.

Judging by the ruins I visited 18 months ago, it was :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 14:37:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Jun 13 13:37:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Ok, who's going to landgrab this one
Message-ID: <200206132035.IJT02977@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

New Solar System Discovered

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/020613/1/2zivx.html

________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 14:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 13:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <3D08FF67.DC7F88A6@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1024000934.3145.ajackson@ping>

David Shayne writes:
> 
> Because in the real world it just doesn't take that long to build
> factories. Even in Traveller it doesn't take anywhere near that long.

In the real world that's generally true, though once you count in required
infrastructure upgrades the repayment time can climb into the decades. 
However, the growth rate of the Traveller Imperium is very low, and the most
likely reason for it to be low is if it's very difficult to build additional
production.
> 
> >From World Tamer's Handbook

<snip computation>

That's more proof a flaw with the WTH (it may or may not be believable, but it
doesn't match the development pattern of the OTU) than proof that upgrading is
cheap.  Also, does the cost of a unit of Heavy Industrial Capital include all
required mining and infrastructure?

> and 3.2 months. Adding in the 20 year replacement rule to account for 
> depreciation and it takes 90.688 months or just over 7 1/2 years to
> complete a second factory.

Huh?  If depreciation is 5% per year, and production is 13.76% per year,
subtracting depreciation leaves you at 8.76% per year, or around 11 years.  Of
course, at 8.76% compound interest it only takes 7.9 years to double.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 14:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Jun 13 13:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEDCCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
>
>What this would mean for a ship's frozen watch would have to be considered,
>though I guess they could go about their business after the battle. At the
>very least, though, I'd expect them to be a little shaky and disoriented
>immediately after awakening.

Oh, just give our boys and girls a shot of combat drug and a hot cup of
Jolt! cola to help 'em wake up.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 14:58:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Jun 13 13:58:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Risks of Low Passage
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEDCCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>
>Deaths due to various causes, mostly auto accidents and dehydration
>crossing the desert kill less than a hundred a year.

The shipping containers from China probably have a higher death rate, but
the numbers involved are much lower.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 15:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Jun 13 14:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEDDCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
>
>mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson) writes:
>>
>> Delenda est Carthago.
>
>Carthago delenda est was how I learnt it.  A quick Googling shows both
>variations.  Ho very ho hum.

Word order isn't that important in Latin, because everything is inflected.
Cicero probably said it both ways, depending on what he wanted to emphasize
that day -- Carthage as the enemy, or destruction as the necessary
objective.  Apparently he started almost every speech with that sentiment.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 15:19:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 14:19:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Chez Jump (was Silly Question)
References: <20020613195006.720BA279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D090C3F.6030106@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> But you really have to make a "good faith effort" to fullfill the
> terms of the contract, and you still have time to get the /Mae Lee/ to
> Montrose...if you hurry.  

*If* he's got copies. And we're still spending the minimum time pon 
Sequi that we could given the vet's schedule.

It just *seems* like it's been months.

(That and it *has* been over a year and a half! I just looked. 
11/27/2000 was when the 'We have liftoff!' post on our trip from Mark to 
Sequi...that was 997-258 in game time.

Current game time is 997-261, which isn't possible considering we spent 
a week in jump, and so far as I can recall, about a week or so here. Me 
thinks you've slipped a bit, Eris, shouldn't that be something like 281 
or so? :-0)

> Oh, and do you remember those folks that tried to steal title of the
> ship from you at the probate hearing? Do you think one of them might
> buy up Sir Gunt's contract and try to tie you up in court until you
> run out of funds? 

Run out of funds, or just run out? :-P

Two of the three parties aren't going to be causing us problems...one's 
a business partner and the other is a wanted man, leaving just the 
lizards, and, well, there's more than one way to skin a lizard...

We could always have a competition amongst the, how do I say this, more 
_ballistically inclined_ members of the party...even if they don't like 
each other much, they're both competitve as hell.

And if all else fails, there's Zeek. Things go boom.

Heh, heh, heh.

We *might* even get some coverage on the issue, I'm rather certain that 
one side in the overall scheme of things wouldn't be too upset if two 
members of the opposition turned up dead...we know who met us to buy 
that armor plate, after all.

Just splitting will make for another huge mess, of course, but hey, 
we'll have the 'Mae Lee', and we can set some clay animals in place for 
anyone unwise enough to explore the asteroid, and there's a *lot* of 
space to coreward...*Ricardo* won't care <weg>.

So long as the natives know how to brew beer, and can grow chilies, he's 
happy.

If we send back regular loan payments, I don't think even the bank will 
be pissed off. *They're* the ones we'd have to worry about. They'd send 
repo men.

 > OTOH you do have a friend in a certain intellegence
> agency that might help you avoid *that* fate, but that would make you
> even more indebted to her than you are now, hum? 

Yeah, well she can just work off the Patrol's blowing our ship to bits, 
first...I'll consider it paid when we've got J3 again....:-P

> And here you are
> playing around in a hurricane while all these other "plots" are
> building around you! <g>

Yeah right! now, *who* is in charge of the weather here?

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 15:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Thu Jun 13 14:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Weird email
In-Reply-To: <200206131054.IIZ03861@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c21322$bb1cae30$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of John T. Kwon
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 03:55
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Weird email

Outlook is a Microsoft programming error.
________________
.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


Actually...Outlook is Microsoft's failed attempt to create Artificial
Intelligence.

I believe Bill Gates' neurons were impressed in the code.......



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 15:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sparky)
Date: Thu Jun 13 14:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
References: <20020612012326.E213827B1C@mail.travellercentral.com> <00bf01c2124c$482c9150$b50fa118@upstairs> <rusfgucmgc3fs5jk4d4r0komhn9jh977j8@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <012101c21325$243117b0$b50fa118@upstairs>

----- Original Message -----
From: "JR Holmes" <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
I've always held to the theory that, unlike familiar space in which
maximum speed is fixed (speed of light), Jump space instead has a
"fixed" duration where the effective speed varies widely.  Thus Jump 1
to Jump 6 and even a Jump 36 misjump all require the same duration.
Of course, there is the side issue that my "fixed" duration is
actually +/- 10% and so isn't quite fixed, but I generally ignore that
from a layman's standpoint.
------------------------------

Very interesting take on things. Does your Jumpspace 'kick the spaceship
out' at the end of the 168+/-10% hours? Or could a ship remain in Jumpspace
longer than the =/-10% dictates...if desired?

Sparky



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 16:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sparky)
Date: Thu Jun 13 15:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
References: <20613.013556.3A6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <013d01c21326$8a9ec0a0$b50fa118@upstairs>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> The time difference between Earth Orbit and the ground is due more to
> the difference the the curvature of space due to *gravity* than to the
> velocity of the satellite.

Oh right. I kind of glossed over that in my thinking when I was typing.
Hmmm...and likely the kind of energy a Jumpdrive generates to force a jump
is large but not large enough  to cause any messy relativistic effects...is
that a valid assumption? (Matter/Energy bend Space/Time)

> For the time dilation due to velocity, you have to get very close to
> the speed of light for the effects to be noticable.
> At 1% of c, time is running at 99.9949998% of the rate at rest.
> At 10% of c, it's 99.4987437%
> At 20% of c, it's 97.9795897%
> etc.

Ah...okay. Didn't know that the numbers worked like that. Thanks.

Sparky


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 16:07:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Erich Brackmann)
Date: Thu Jun 13 15:07:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <012101c21325$243117b0$b50fa118@upstairs>
Message-ID: <OGBBICAMOLJHJILPIOEPMEPHCAAA.kaukgannir@comcast.net>

----- Original Message -----
From: "JR Holmes" <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
I've always held to the theory that, unlike familiar space in which
maximum speed is fixed (speed of light), Jump space instead has a
"fixed" duration where the effective speed varies widely.  Thus Jump 1
to Jump 6 and even a Jump 36 misjump all require the same duration.
Of course, there is the side issue that my "fixed" duration is
actually +/- 10% and so isn't quite fixed, but I generally ignore that
from a layman's standpoint.
------------------------------

Very interesting take on things. Does your Jumpspace 'kick the spaceship
out' at the end of the 168+/-10% hours? Or could a ship remain in Jumpspace
longer than the =/-10% dictates...if desired?

Sparky


There is a 'timespeed' limit instead of a velocity limit?  I can go as fast
as I want, but for only a period of time? :)
- Erich


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 16:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun 13 15:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
In-Reply-To: <20020613212025.1AF3427C7D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17IckF-0003Gp-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>

> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> 
>      "Or rather, if it were that dangerous, no onne would waste the
> frikin' money to stick 'em in their ships."
> 
>      "Another case where slavish adherence to (a really stupid) canon
> concept turns things into an absolutely absurd concept."
> 
> Mr. Johnson,
> 
>  Agreed.  Low berth fatalities are just another example of the clunky 
> metagaming concept, like the "McClellen is a dope" rules in any
> Antietam game or the fact that an Empress Marava can't make her
> mortgage payments without speculative and/or illegal trade.

Actually, I *like* this fact about the Empress Marava.  As I see it, 
most freight hauling is locked up by megacorps and 10,000 - 
100,000 DT+ bulk carriers.  Small ships are on the fringe and make 
most of their living off of speculation (and often smuggling).  This 
fact makes merchant campaigns *far* more interesting. 

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 16:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Jun 13 15:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <m3adpzxbox.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <20020613182021.84DDC27C8C@mail.travellercentral.com> <m3adpzxbox.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020614081020.A32200@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> But then the fluid ounce of water would no longer weigh an ounce.

Yes it would: with a fluid ounce being 1/32 of a litre, then a fluid
ounce of water has a mass of 31.25 grams (under appropriate
conditions).  With a pound being 500 grams, a 16th of a pound is also
31.25 grams.  Solved!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 16:23:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sparky)
Date: Thu Jun 13 15:23:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...to Scientific Advances
References: <20613.014642.3M9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <014601c21328$c1201500$b50fa118@upstairs>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> Remember, the bit with FTL being equivalent to time travel is due to
> the way the space time co-ordinates to the departure point in *our*
> space time is realted to the arrival point in our space time. If you
> get there faster than light can cross the gap (in our space), then for
> someone travelling in the right direction at the right speed you'll
> arrive before you left.
>
> It's actually a matter of *geometry*.

Leonard (or anyone,) can you give me a quick lesson on this sort of
geometry? (Off list if need be.) I'm kind of a visual thinker, and I'd like
to get a handle on it.

Relatedly, I've been wondering how subspace is supposed to work in Star Trek
(of all things) A starbase sends out an SOS for help from the enterprise and
subspace sometimes can travel faster than they can (and sometimes not.)
Supposedly, part of the explanation is that subspace uses tachyons, which
seem to travel backward in time and speed up communication.

Wouldn't that mean that (assuming the distance is short enough) the starbase
that sent the message might *sometimes* get the message *before*  the
starbase sent their original message? It's never made any sense to me...but
I seem to look too close at the pretty lights anyway. ;)

But to drag this off of a general physics discussion over to some kind of
Traveller topic....What sorts of rules-of-thumb is most commonly use to
regulate new scientific advances in YTUs? Does anyone commonly allow techs
to research and invent things within their specialties? How does everyone
handle this when it comes up?

Sparky


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 16:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Thu Jun 13 15:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ok, who's going to landgrab this one
In-Reply-To: <200206132035.IJT02977@vmms1.verisignmail.com> from "John T. Kwon" at Jun 13, 2002 04:35:35 PM
Message-ID: <200206132130.g5DLUdr07841@localhost.uia.net>

> New Solar System Discovered
> http://sg.news.yahoo.com/020613/1/2zivx.html
 
Strange. The article says that 55 Cancri is 41 million light years
away. http://www.jtwinc.com/Extrasolar/star.asp?StarID=4 puts its
distance at 44 light years (which seems a bit more reasonable).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 16:30:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Jun 13 15:30:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <m3adpzxbox.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <20020613182021.84DDC27C8C@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D09C55F.17932.4FB2BC@localhost>

On 13 Jun 2002 at 12:42, Robert Uhl wrote:

> "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com> writes:
> >
> > I often think we should just jiggle the fluid ounce so that there
> > are exactly 32 in a liter, the inch to be exactly 2.5 cm, and the
> > pound to be exactly 2 kg
> 
> But then the fluid ounce of water would no longer weigh an ounce.

Got some news for you - the Imperial fluid ounce (40 to the quart) is 
almost exactly an ounce in weight (assuming water), while the US fliud 
ounce is a few per cent bigger (and thus heavier).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 16:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Jun 13 15:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEDDCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D09C55F.14786.4FB384@localhost>

On 13 Jun 2002 at 2:01, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> >From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
> >
> >mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson) writes:
> >>
> >> Delenda est Carthago.
> >
> >Carthago delenda est was how I learnt it.  A quick Googling shows both
> >variations.  Ho very ho hum.
> 
> Word order isn't that important in Latin, because everything is inflected.
> Cicero probably said it both ways, depending on what he wanted to emphasize
> that day -- Carthage as the enemy, or destruction as the necessary
> objective.  Apparently he started almost every speech with that sentiment.

That wasn't Cicero - Carthage was already gone by his time (in fact 
there'd already been at least one attempt to re-build by then).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 16:33:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Jun 13 15:33:11 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
In-Reply-To: <F259hkeTxtfkdpczeyi00004576@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D09C619.27192.5288D1@localhost>

On 13 Jun 2002 at 19:44, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      The Low Lottery was most likely tacked on to produce a certain in-game 
> effect, but the "rivets" show too easily.  I'd guess the desired effect was 
> the GM's monetary control over the PCs.  Traveller seems to have a lot of 
> these "power of the purse" quirks.  By making the low berth a survival crap 
> shoot, PCs will be loathe to use it to travel and thus easier prey for a 
> GM's money making schemes if only to pay for safer middle passages.

I suspect death by lowberth was simply something borrowed from the 
Dumarest series, along with the whole low/mid/high passage thing (and 
the fast/slow drugs, and...)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 16:35:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Jun 13 15:35:06 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20613.034405.3y5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020613155158.B30041@freeman.little-possums.net> <20613.034405.3y5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020614083329.B32200@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> The exchange equipment may be capable of 100 kbps, but the *lines*
> aren't.

At least some are.  My own voice-grade line is certainly capable of at
least 128 kb/s, since it actually passes that much data.  In fact the
line is almost certainly capable of at least 1500 kb/s.  The current
limit is the equipment at either end, not the line itself.  Yes, I
agree that some lines are a *lot* worse, especially the longer ones in
rural areas.

The fact remains that consumer modems don't make use of the full
bitrate that is often available.  Partly for regulatory reasons,
partly for technical reasons.


> The tariffs in much of the US frequently say that they won't guarantee
> more than 2400 *baud* on normal residential or business lines. Which
> ends complaints until they run into a customer who knows the difference
> between bps and baud and points out that his modem *is* only doing 2400
> baud. 

Yes, that has happened here, too :)

Telstra recently altered their policy to read a minimum 9600 bits per
second.  The catch being that it only applies with Telstra reference
equipment which is *much* more robust than consumer-grade modems.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 16:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 15:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ok, who's going to landgrab this one
References: <200206132130.g5DLUdr07841@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <3D0920A9.7060501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

jimv wrote:
>>New Solar System Discovered
>>http://sg.news.yahoo.com/020613/1/2zivx.html
> 
>  
> Strange. The article says that 55 Cancri is 41 million light years
> away. http://www.jtwinc.com/Extrasolar/star.asp?StarID=4 puts its
> distance at 44 light years (which seems a bit more reasonable).

CNN's report put it at 41 light years.

We can't see individual stars at 41 million light years, much less planets.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 17:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Thu Jun 13 16:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...to Scientific Advances
In-Reply-To: <014601c21328$c1201500$b50fa118@upstairs>
Message-ID: <000001c21330$068b0fd0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Sparky
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 15:22
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Silly question...to Scientific Advances



Leonard (or anyone,) can you give me a quick lesson on this sort of
geometry? (Off list if need be.)
_______________________________________________


You know, with all the wealth of technical expertise on this list, maybe
a separate list for discussing non-traveller technical issues would be
appropriate?

For example, the Cell Phone/Telecom stuff..I'm finding that very
interesting reading.  At least *I* for one, could stand to learn a LOT
from the potpourri of educated folk here.  What do you guys think? 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 17:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Jun 13 16:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
Message-ID: <F1753fvr9FFf70DQLGJ000011d7@hotmail.com>

From: sneadj@mindspring.com

     "Actually, I *like* this fact about the Empress Marava.  As I see it, 
most freight hauling is locked up by megacorps and 10,000 -
100,000 DT+ bulk carriers.  Small ships are on the fringe and make
most of their living off of speculation (and often smuggling).  This
fact makes merchant campaigns *far* more interesting."


Mr. Snead,

     Now we're dealing with the Great Traveller Community Fault Line!  There 
are those people who PLAY Our Olde Game and those people who PLAY WITH Our 
Olde Game.
     While wearing my GM hat, I absolutely love the fact that the Empress 
Marava cannot make it's mortgage payments without the use of shenanigans.  
There lies the way to adventure!
     While wearing my world builder hat, I have a hard time believing that 
anyone could get a mortgage from a bank for a vessel that would not be able 
to earn enough to make the payments.  There lies the way to foreclosure!
     Traveller is first, foremost, and always a game.  There will always be 
a struggle between our desire to make Traveller more realistic and our 
desire to make Traveller fun to play.  Where the line between those two 
desires eventually is drawn depends on the individual.  MTU, YTU, 
toe-may-toe, toe-mah-toe.  Which end of a boiled egg do you open first?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 17:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Thu Jun 13 16:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Risks of Low Passage
In-Reply-To: <20020613212027.EE30427C6C@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020613161509.009f2d70@mailhost.efn.org>

On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 01:56:31 -0700, "Glenn M. Goffin" 
<gmgoffin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> >From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> >
> >Deaths due to various causes, mostly auto accidents and dehydration
> >crossing the desert kill less than a hundred a year.
>
>The shipping containers from China probably have a higher death rate, but
>the numbers involved are much lower.

That's pretty much what I was thinking of, more so than the coyotes running 
people across the U.S./Mexico border (since it's by ship).  The data on the 
old slave ships (and that 1 in 6 wasn't too out of line for /those/) was a 
nice bonus.


also:

>Word order isn't that important in Latin, because everything is inflected.
>Cicero probably said it both ways, depending on what he wanted to emphasize
>that day -- Carthage as the enemy, or destruction as the necessary
>objective.  Apparently he started almost every speech with that sentiment.

And how would one say "Axis of Evil" in Latin?



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 17:25:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 16:25:44 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
In-Reply-To: <02061315550907.24202@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20613.150740.8c0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I always found the thought of Low passage nonsurvival, and more importantly, 
> the attitude of the crew (The "Low Lottery" seemed extremely callous to me) 
> horrifying. I'm imagining that Low passage is often the resort of the 
> desparate, or the foolhardy. 
>
> One scenario I can thik of is the young teenage couple who decide to "blow 
> this planet", to elope to the next planet over, a whole new world of 
> oportunity, where their parents/friends who dissaprove can't get to them, 
> where everything will be better. They save and save in secret, dreaming of 
> the day when they get off this mudpile and head for the big lights/quiet 
> countryside of their new world. And then, when they finally do make it, they 
> wake up and ONE of them is dead! That's got to be the most tragic thing ever!
>
> But conscidering how "easy" a way out taking low passage to the next planet 
> would seem to young people on a non-industrial, non-agricultural, poor 
> rockball, sitting 1 parsec away from an industrial or garden world, and how 
> despite the statistics they would never think it would happen to them. This 
> thing must happen all the time! hundreds of times a week in a high pop 
> industrial world, with tens of thousands of economic refugees arriving on a 
> regular basis. 
>
> You'd think if it were that dangerous, it would be banned...

Why? They *know* the dangers. It's their choice. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 17:26:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 16:26:39 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
In-Reply-To: <E17Iatv-0000h5-00@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20613.151015.9G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:
>
>> Brian Caball wrote:
>> 
>> > You'd think if it were that dangerous, it would be banned...
>> 
>> Or rather, if it were that dangerous, no onne would waste the frikin'
>> money to stick 'em in their ships.
>> 
>> Another case where slavish adherence to (a really stupid) canon
>> concept turns things into an absolutely absurd concept.
>> 
>> If low berths are that dangerous, killing 18% of all of those who
>> enter, then there would be a mutiny the first time a naval vessel
>> tried to implement a 'frozen watch'.
>> 
>> Alas, this is endemic amongst CT purists. The CT rules are far more
>> cartoonish than later editions, with things like the low berth
>> fatality rate.

Actually, it's another thing borrowed from the Dumarest stories. <g>

Like "slow drug" and "fast drug" and the entire "high, middle & low
passage" bit. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 17:27:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 16:27:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <200206131933.g5DJXKq07430@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20613.151349.9K9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> For the time dilation due to velocity, you have to get very close to
>> the speed of light for the effects to be noticable. 
>> 
>> At 1% of c, time is running at 99.9949998% of the rate at rest.
>> At 10% of c, it's 99.4987437%
>> At 20% of c, it's 97.9795897%
>> etc. 
>
> I wrote a small basic/dos program which does these calcs
> in case anybody wants a copy. Actually, that's not quite
> accurate of me... the program basically takes some "g"
> thrust and duration of voyage as inputs and calculates
> various outputs including subjective (shipboard time).
> A bit confusing to explain, but if anybody wants a copy,
> you can grab it at:
>
> http://www.elektrasystems.net/~jimv/stl1.zip

You *do* use the proper formulas for *accelerated* frames don't you?
the ones that use the hyperbolic functions rather than the simple
square/squares root or arcsin/cos formulas? 

> In the Harrison Chapters (a somewhat travelleresque story I
> wrote years ago, http://www.elektrasystems.net/~jimv/har.htm),
> I ran up against this same problem and decided to use "centims"
> (or "cents") as the basic unit of local time, each being 1/100 of
> a sol (a local day). So on a world with a 20 hour sol, 1 cent =
> 12 minutes, 1 mil = 72 seconds, and 1 decimil = 7.2 seconds. It's
> pretty easy to keep going with this.

100 is a *lousy* choice of divisor for a sol. You can't divide the day
into 3 shifts evenly, for example. 

That's why I said numbers like 12 & 24 are preferable.

100 is evenly divisible by 2, 4, 5, 10, 20, 25, and 50.

24 is evenly divisible by 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, and 12

> Normally, the day would begin on a world at mean sunrise at
> some given location, usually the capital city, so if a character
> said something like "Let's meet at 50," that would equate to 6pm
> (if you assume that 6am is mean sun-up, and if you assume you're
> near the capital). Away from the capital, sunrise would be different.

There's a reason why we don't have "the day starts at sunrise" anymore.

Mean surise varies from *actual* sunrise by quite about, even with
earth's modest axial tilt. Noon varies only a little. As does
"midnight" (though midnight is harder to check). 

Here's an example, for Portland, Oregon this year:

          date   sunrise  noon   sunset
          -----  -------  -----  ------
equinox	   3/20	  6:14    12:18	 18:23
solstice   6/21   4:22    12:13  20:03  
equinox    9/22   5:58    12:03  18:08
solstice  12/21   7:48    12:09  16:30


The time of sunrise varies by over 3 hours. The time of noon (transit)
varies by 15 minutes. 

> On the other side of the planet, sun-up could occur at 50. But time
> is usually absolute. If it's 50 in one location on the planet, it's
> 50 everywhere. There's none of this time-zone stuff unless the world
> decided to set that up for some reason (a few would, I imagine).

Actually, any world where you can live on the surface *will* have time
zones. Being more or less synched with the sun is important. And I
don't see steps biggr than an "hour" or two being likely. 

It's too damned *useful* to know how light it is (give or take) by
looking at a clock. Human internal rythyms are controlled by light dark
cycles. For most people trying to live a schedule that isn't roughly in
synch with the sun is *very* hard. Even harder than living one that's
"offest" (ie swing shift or graveyard shift may be hard on most folks,
but a schedule that isn't *fixed* with respect to the sun is even
harder).

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 17:28:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 16:28:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <20020613202549.A30644@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20613.153806.9e8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> The time difference between Earth Orbit and the ground is due more to
>> the difference the the curvature of space due to *gravity* than to the
>> velocity of the satellite. 
>
> No, the velocity effect does dominate (and they have different signs).
> The time dilation due to velocity means that clocks in low orbit run
> about 300 parts per trillion slower.  The gravitational effect is
> measurable, but on the order of 10 times smaller and in the opposite
> direction.
>
>
>> You can actually measure the difference in time rates between the top
>> and bottom of a medium tall building. But it takes *very* sensitive
>> instruments. The difference is something on the order of a second in a
>> few thousand years (or less, anybody have good figures?)
>
> It's pretty easy, actually.  Just gravitational potential divided by
> c^2 (to first order).  So a building 100 m tall gives a variation of
> about 10^-14.  That's about one second per three million years.
>
> Variation in proper time due to velocity is equally easy to work out:
> kinetic energy divided by mc^2.

The mass term drops out. 

And in any case, that doesn't give the right answer. You forgot to take
the square root (among other things). Try 

tau = sqrt(1-(v^2/c^2))

or the much simpler on a calculator

tau = cos(arcsin(v/c))
tau = sin(arccos(v/c))

I use .6 & .8 as my "test" values to make sure I get the operations in
the right order. v= .6 gives a tau of .8 and vice versa.

oh yeah, if you graph v/c on one axis, and tau on the other, you get a
circle. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 17:29:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 16:29:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Attention List-Mom! (was Re: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender)
In-Reply-To: <20020613104058.0160D27C06@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20613.154512.1Z6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

I'm getting a bunch of bounce messages from the list server. It would
appear that pixie@nc.rr.com is bouncing traffic from the list, And for
some stupid reason, the list software is sending the bounce messages to
*me* instead of to the list owner. 

Subscribers shouldn't be getting such messages when their posts can't
be delivered to a subscriber. They should go to the list owner address.

Which reminfs me, I have to go check for bounce messages on the SCA
mailing list I maintain for the Shire... :-(

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 17:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Thu Jun 13 16:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chez Jump (was Silly Question)
In-Reply-To: <20020613212027.EE30427C6C@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020613162458.009f2970@mailhost.efn.org>

I already told you that /I/ think you should do it, Doug.  Only I liked 
your original title, "Chez Beowulf", better...



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 17:31:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sparky)
Date: Thu Jun 13 16:31:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...to Scientific Advances
References: <000001c21330$068b0fd0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <001d01c21331$9dd14ca0$b50fa118@upstairs>

Another list I'm on has sub-lists you can subscribe to if interested. I'm
not sure what is required or what software is used or anything...

Sparky

----- Original Message -----
From: "J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> You know, with all the wealth of technical expertise on this list, maybe
> a separate list for discussing non-traveller technical issues would be
> appropriate?
>
> For example, the Cell Phone/Telecom stuff..I'm finding that very
> interesting reading.  At least *I* for one, could stand to learn a LOT
> from the potpourri of educated folk here.  What do you guys think?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 17:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Jun 13 16:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
Message-ID: <F1042BS7QTDVd94wyrv0001f636@hotmail.com>

From: "Sparky" <sparky13@nycap.rr.com>

     "Very interesting take on things. Does your Jumpspace 'kick the 
spaceship out' at the end of the 168+/-10% hours? Or could a ship remain in 
Jumpspace longer than the =/-10% dictates...if desired?"


Sir,

     "Kicked out", "falls out", "exits", they're all good analogies for what 
happens.  Everyone chooses their own descriptive terminology about jump 
space.  Remember, it's make believe!
     Ship's do, and can, spend more or less time in jumpspace than the 
168+/-10% hours, but it is never desired or voluntary.  It's called a 
misjump.
     A misjump comes in three basic varieties; temporal, directional, and 
distance.  Misjumps usually combine these three types in a melange of woe.
     Temporal misjumps usually take longer than the 168 hour period, 
sometimes much, much longer.  Sometimes long enough for everyone on board to 
die.  Short time jumps are normally by GM fiat.
     Directional misjumps mean you do not jump in the direction you wanted 
to.  Traveller interstellar mapping is 2D, although 3D versions do exist.  
Imagine a one parsec jump, a vessel starts in a central hex and will attempt 
to jump to one of the six surrounded hexes.  A directional misjump sends the 
vessel to one of the other five hexes, which may or may not have a star 
system in it.
     Distance misjumps range from missing your exit point by a few kms or 
AUs to the dreaded 36 parsec gallop.  Controlled jumps can only range up to 
6 parsecs, anything beyond that is a misjump.
     Every version of Our Olde Game has a number of misjump tables for your 
use.  Misjumps can be forced through the use of unrefined fuel, poor jump 
navigation plots, poorly maintained or damaged drives, entering jump space 
while within jump exclusion limits, or many other reasons included GM pique.
     Traveller canon is littered with examples of even wierded misjumps.  
There's the tale of an IN destroyer found in the Lanth Abyss that came out 
of jump and ignored all comm attempts.  Boarding parties found a hair 
raising scene aboard, apparently something like 250K years had passed 
onboard during the single week the vessel had spent in jumpspace.
     Remember, jumpspace is unfathomable to even the folks in the 57th 
century.  They know that if they're at A, do B, C, and D, they'll arrive 
safely (usually) at Z.  What they don't know is why.  It's a it like FTL 
travel in Pohl's HeeChee series.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 18:16:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 17:16:19 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
References: <F1753fvr9FFf70DQLGJ000011d7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D0935A6.2060207@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>     While wearing my world builder hat, I have a hard time believing 
> that anyone could get a mortgage from a bank for a vessel that would not 
> be able to earn enough to make the payments.  There lies the way to 
> foreclosure!

Has no one considered that Marava-class free traders are probably 
*never* purchased new at the list price? Companies like Tukera buy 'em 
by the gross, at steep discounts for various JIT delivery anbd courier 
services.

Player characters shouldn't be buying new ones, and someone with only 
one ship ain't going to be buying them new, either, but surplus.

True free traders are going to be poking along in a motley assortment of 
old, creaky ships: scout/couriers, far/free traders, and the myriad of 
surplussed civilian and  military logistics vessels that have never been 
cataloged in official Traveller publications, ranging in size from 
100-5000 tons.

Mr. Whipsnade, I'm sure, is more than familiar with the range of 
different vessels in use from his naval and later civilian careers. How 
many tramp freighter captains have ever bought their vessels new?

Look at the history of civilian aviation. Today, to be sure there has 
been considerable consolidation, but look though a book like Enzo 
Angelucci's "The Illustrated History of Civil Aircraft" shows hundreds 
of different designs, and this book doesn't cover *all* of them, merely 
ones that made it to significant production numbers.

I can hardly believe that the Imperium, 1200 years old, and 13,000 
worlds strong makes a paltry 3 models of starship on the PC's scale, yet 
over and over again players have a 200 ton far trader and they *always* 
look like a damned Beowulf!!!

Where are the 368 ton Ling Standard 'Beast Of Burden' class traders with 
the inconveniently placed structural pillars in the cargo bays, the 216 
ton Marzocchi Brothers 'Illuthium' merchant ships with their finicky 
lateral controls, the 432 ton 'Epitome of Excess' Gvurrgh-Seldon class 
Yachts with the gold-plated control panels and swimming pools?

The Held-Viiran 'Gunny Rogers' class 740 ton fleet tenders produced by 
the tens of thousands for the navy in the late 900's and early 1000's, 
with thousands still floating around converted to everything from 
asteroid bases to free traders to funky hippie interstellar busses??

The Imperium is a huge and wondrous place...why are all the ships so 
damned *boring*??!!!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Jun 13 17:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <20613.151349.9K9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200206131933.g5DJXKq07430@localhost.uia.net> <20613.151349.9K9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020614101825.A32536@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Actually, any world where you can live on the surface *will* have time
> zones. Being more or less synched with the sun is important. And I
> don't see steps biggr than an "hour" or two being likely. 

That'll be fun on planets where the local "day" is 296 hours long :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 18:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Jun 13 17:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU setting
Message-ID: <F11p1giLJ2hqgRvAmmR0001ffc0@hotmail.com>

From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

     "Of course, that interpretation makes the official population figure 
absolutely useless for any calculations of trade volume, system defense 
budget and the like."


Mr. Rancke-Madsen,

     If, a very big if, we're trying to calculate those things in the 
OTU/Third Imperium Setting.  CT and the OTU are not seemless.  One was 
created before the other and, although they were slowly fleshed out over the 
same period of time, they are demonstratably NOT 100% compatible.
     The OTU is a specific setting, a subset if you will, with regards to 
CT.  CT is Basic GURPS and the OTU is G:WW2.  Like G:WW2, which must either 
ignore or modify portions of Basic GURPS to work, the OTU must ignore or 
modify portions of CT to work.
     We need an OTU/Third Imperium "worldbook" to identify and codify the 
required changes to CT for RPG play in an OTU setting.
     And you, sir, are just the man to do that.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 18:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Jun 13 17:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20612.215211.9l8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEPDEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>>Newtonian physics is TL *3*. And it still works perfectly well as long
>>>as you avoid relativistic velocities, scales where quantum effects are
>>>important and insanely huge gravity fields.
>>>
>>>The corrections for any of the above are microscopic under "normal"
>>>circumstances.
>>>
>> But at TL3 only a handful of people knew about Newtonian Physics.
>
>TL3 ends in 1860. A *lot* of folks knew Newtonian physics in 1860!
>
>>>Maxwell equations are TL4. And stll work outside the quantum domain.
>>>
>> Same thing. When Maxwell proposed his equations vector calculus was still
>> unexplored and the four equations required pages and pages of regular
>> calculus to illustrate. The number of people equipped with the proper
>> training to understand those concepts was fairly small.
>
>TL4 ends in 1900. Again, anybody with any training in physics beyond
>the most basic was exposed to them.

I'm afraid that TL is much too coarse a system to illustrate my point. I
should have realized that before I made my comment. The examples were
probably badly chosen to make my point.

>> When talking TL you are talking both science and engineering. Why
>> would anyone make a flintlock when they could make a percussion cap.
>
>Because all you need to keep a flinlock going is essentially *medieval*
>(or even Roman) tech.
>
But what do you mean by tech in this case? The flintlock itself is TL 2
through 3? The medieval or even Roman tech is TL1. This is the real point.
If a device was invented historically in a specific period does that make
the device the corresponding TL? If a flintlock was historically developed
at TL2, but can be built at TL1 is it a TL2 device or a TL1 device? Further,
how do we tell if it could have been built at a lower TL?

I mean you can say: Well they had wire at TL1 and knew how to make acid at
TL1 so does that mean they could make an electromagnet. But if you can make
an electromagnet at TL1 then does that mean you can make a motor at TL2? You
see where I'm going with this?

"TL" is not a very good way to talk about this. Book 6 relates TL to
specific historical periods. I suspect, but don't really know, that the
writers intended TL to reflect technology available in a specific historical
period. This would certainly make it easier on the GM. TL1? It's a medieval
setting; horses, wagons, no firearms. As someone else mentioned this was
probably good enough for a pocket empire, pre-OTU setting, but probably
doesn't work well for the OTU.

>Making percussion caps is a lot harder, and a lot more hazardous to
>your health.
>
>> Heck if they can make power cells and ultra high temperature
>> superconductors why not make a gauss gun?
>
>True enough.
>
So in the spirit of not just going on and on about how it's wrong why don't
we fix it?  Let's create an optional TML tech level extension to the UPP to
better and more consistently apply to the type of TU where lower TL worlds
can produce anachronistic devices. Add a listing for imported devices that
are commonly available for purchase there and we'll really have something
that will be useful to GMs and players alike.

How about it?

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 18:30:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Jun 13 17:30:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Attention List-Mom! (was Re: Undelivered Mail Returned
 to Sender)
In-Reply-To: <20613.154512.1Z6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B92E86FC.5EF56%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/13/02 4:45 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

> I'm getting a bunch of bounce messages from the list server. It would
> appear that pixie@nc.rr.com is bouncing traffic from the list, And for
> some stupid reason, the list software is sending the bounce messages to
> *me* instead of to the list owner.
> 
> Subscribers shouldn't be getting such messages when their posts can't
> be delivered to a subscriber. They should go to the list owner address.

No, they shouldn't.  I'll take a look.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 18:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Jun 13 17:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <20613.153806.9e8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020613202549.A30644@freeman.little-possums.net> <20613.153806.9e8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020614103319.B32536@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
[I wrote:]
> > Variation in proper time due to velocity is equally easy to work out:
> > kinetic energy divided by mc^2.

> And in any case, that doesn't give the right answer. You forgot to
> take the square root (among other things).

I was expecting this objection ;^>, but it is actually precisely
correct, and equivalent to your formula.  The correct (relativistic)
formula for kinetic energy is

KE = (m c^2) (1 / sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) - 1), hence
KE / (m c^2) = 1 / sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) - 1.

Using your formula, the ratio of local time to the moving body's
proper time is 1 / sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2).  Subtracting one (thus giving
just the *variation* between time scales) gives KE / mc^2.

So we actually agree, even if it wasn't obvious :)


Another way of saying the same thing is that the time ratio is equal
to total energy (KE + rest) divided by rest energy.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 18:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Jun 13 17:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
Message-ID: <F1161Ed28kIN4MmXKCn0001f7c0@hotmail.com>

From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

     "Has no one considered that Marava-class free traders are probably
*never* purchased new at the list price? Companies like Tukera buy 'em
by the gross, at steep discounts for various JIT delivery and courier
services."


Mr. Johnson,

     Exactly!  Please go on...

     "Player characters shouldn't be buying new ones, and someone with
only one ship ain't going to be buying them new, either, but surplus."

     Yes, yes!  Sell it to 'em, Doc, sell it to 'em!

     "True free traders are going to be poking along in a motley
assortment of old, creaky ships: scout/couriers, far/free traders, and the 
myriad of surplussed civilian and  military logistics vessels that have 
never been cataloged in official Traveller publications, ranging in size 
from 100-5000 tons."

     That a way to bring it home, Doc!  Perfectly put!  Superb!

     "How many tramp freighter captains have ever bought their vessels new?"

     None, unless they got their funding from certain businessmen in 
Columbia...

     "I can hardly believe that the Imperium, 1200 years old, and 13,000
worlds strong makes a paltry 3 models of starship on the PC's scale,
yet over and over again players have a 200 ton far trader and they
*always* look like a damned Beowulf!!!"

     "The Imperium is a huge and wondrous place...why are all the ships so 
damned *boring*??!!!"

     Because Mr. Moffatt-Vallance's HGS program is only a few years old?
     How about another TML contest?  We could have the "First Ever TML Show 
Us Your Ships Rodeo" in a similar manner to the PC contest last year.
     Folks could enter any ship that a group of PCs has a reasonable* chance 
of owning/operating, either as merchants, gun bunnies, freelance scouts, 
whatever.  Submissions would include for what and whom the ship and it's 
class were made for, how they're used now, how PCs normally get their furry 
little mitts on 'em, and so forth.  We won't be looking only at USP lines or 
tweaked tonnages, but the actual RPG chrome; verbiage, verbiage, and more 
verbiage!  Explain in WORDS what make your vessel the bee's knees.
     What does everyone say?  It's been months since our last soi disant 
contest.


     Sincerely,
     Commodore Larsen

* No demilitarized AHLs puh-leez....

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 18:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Jun 13 17:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] why does travel cost so much?
Message-ID: <B92E8992.5EF5D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

The recent discussion on the cost of shipping goods got me thinking.  It
seems that shipping cargo is at least as cost effective as 21st century
earth.  So why is passage so costly (cr10,000 or US $29,200 in adjusted
dollars).  It seems like passage cost should be significantly lower.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Jun 13 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
In-Reply-To: <3D0935A6.2060207@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <F1753fvr9FFf70DQLGJ000011d7@hotmail.com>
 <3D0935A6.2060207@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <m3660m4rgm.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
>
> How many tramp freighter captains have ever bought their vessels
> new?

Do tramp freighters even exist nowadays?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
So Microsoft's invented the ASCII equivalent to ugly ink spots that
appear on your letter when your pen is malfunctioning.
        --Greg Andrews, about Microsoft's way to encode apostrophes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 18:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Jun 13 17:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] why does travel cost so much?
In-Reply-To: <B92E8992.5EF5D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B92E8992.5EF5D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020614105707.C32536@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> The recent discussion on the cost of shipping goods got me thinking.  It
> seems that shipping cargo is at least as cost effective as 21st century
> earth.

Um, I thought it worked out about 30 times more expensive ...?  A 6
dton container in Traveller being shipped about a subsector
(comparable to trans-oceanic shipping in terms of access to economic
entities) costs about 40 kCr, or US$120,000.  Real world cost for
international shipping of the same amount is about US$4000.


>  So why is passage so costly (cr10,000 or US $29,200 in adjusted
> dollars).

Looks about right to me.  Dividing by the same factor of 30, US$1000
looks moderately similar to real-world international passage prices.
Of course, the biggest difference from the real world is the presence
of airlines.  Nothing comparable exists in Traveller.

The fact is that both freight and passage are much more expensive than
Earth travel between nations.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 19:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Jun 13 18:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
In-Reply-To: <F1161Ed28kIN4MmXKCn0001f7c0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEPEEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>The Imperium is a huge and wondrous place...why are all the ships so
>damned *boring*??!!!"

Because you aren't using Robert Prior's wonderfully designed 101 Starships
from the folks at BITS?

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 19:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Jun 13 18:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] why does travel cost so much?
Message-ID: <200206140100.IKB05298@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn asks
>So why is passage so costly (cr10,000 or US $29,200 in 
>adjusted dollars).  It seems like passage cost should be 
>significantly lower.
>

Passage cost may be partly influenced by the duration - how 
long could you possibly be on an airliner today?  And for 
those really long flights, how much do they cost?  If I 
wanted to fly from Washington, D.C. to visit Rupert in New 
Zealand, I'm betting I would be on a plane for over 18 hours, 
and the ticket would cost several thousand dollars one way.  
For those short flights within the US, that have many planes 
on the same route, let's say, from D.C. to Atlanta, it's 
really cheap.

BTW, the fuel cost per passenger seat mile for a 747 is 
supposed to be far, far more economical than any other mode 
of transportation using an internal combustion engine - ship, 
train, or ground vehicle.  So on that long flight from here 
to NZ, that plane is making money.

What's odd about the duration idea is that all Traveller 
jumps are one week.  There's no "short hop" where I could 
charge less and make more short hops to make up the 
difference.

Not sure why then.  If you add up the crew costs, factor in 
the replacement costs for life support (listed in Book 2), 
and figure out the mortgage for the ship, it's probably 
possible to come up with a more competitive ticket cost, 
depending on the design of the ship.

________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 19:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Jun 13 18:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] why does travel cost so much?
In-Reply-To: <B92E8992.5EF5D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1024016508.9882.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> The recent discussion on the cost of shipping goods got me thinking.  It
> seems that shipping cargo is at least as cost effective as 21st century
> earth.  So why is passage so costly (cr10,000 or US $29,200 in adjusted
> dollars).  It seems like passage cost should be significantly lower.

Probably should be.  The Far Trader standard price for cargo is $400-$700 per
dton per parsec (depending on how you book the freight), which is pretty
believable with TL 10 credits (freight rates are actually TL 12 credits, I
think because the author realized just how badly applying exchange rates screws
with traveller economics, but I can ignore because I set the Imperium to TL 10
anyway).  Of course, Far Trader also changes the rates to $2,500 for middle,
$5,000 for high, which is slightly low if you assume you're transporting 2 or 4
dtons on a tramp.  If you book your trip 16 weeks in advance on a liner the
cost should be under $2,000 for a middle passage.

A realistic figure for steerage would be half a dton per person, which gives a
cost of only $200 per parsec if you book in advance by enough.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 19:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Jun 13 18:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
In-Reply-To: <F1161Ed28kIN4MmXKCn0001f7c0@hotmail.com>
References: <F1161Ed28kIN4MmXKCn0001f7c0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020614110259.D32536@freeman.little-possums.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> verbiage!  Explain in WORDS what make your vessel the bee's knees.

I've already got a vessel designed, and owned by PCs.  The bee's knees
it is not.  I have a work-in-progress writeup, and a number of notes
yet to be put up on the webpage.  I also have some notes that the
player isn't going to find out about until later.  (I'm actually going
to try running a PBeM with one player, my wife, who actually shares
the same house.  Weird or what?)

http://www.little-possums.net/little-traveller/beauty-queen.html


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 19:05:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Jun 13 18:05:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Ok, who's going to landgrab this one
In-Reply-To: <200206132130.g5DLUdr07841@localhost.uia.net>
References: <200206132035.IJT02977@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020613200340.009bb8a0@minn.net>

At 02:30 PM 6/13/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>Strange. The article says that 55 Cancri is 41 million light years
>away. http://www.jtwinc.com/Extrasolar/star.asp?StarID=4 puts its
>distance at 44 light years (which seems a bit more reasonable).

Which is 13.455657 parsecs, which places it in the Solomani Rim, but where?


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 19:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Thu Jun 13 18:14:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Great picture
Message-ID: <006f01c21340$bfd5f4e0$26463b41@customer>

Quoting "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>:

> They've taken a really wide view of the Eagle Nebula, and the
> pics are posted at:
> http://www.noao.edu/image_gallery/html/im0725.html
>
> Really sweet.

Thanks, John.  It'll make great wallpaper.

John Scarllett

--------------
About 18% of animal owners share thier beds with their pets-"Real Fact" #80
at snapple.com.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 19:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Thu Jun 13 18:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
References: <F1753fvr9FFf70DQLGJ000011d7@hotmail.com> <3D0935A6.2060207@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <000c01c21343$69746ed0$1c577b83@Gideon>

<quote>
> Player characters shouldn't be buying new ones, and someone with only
> one ship ain't going to be buying them new, either, but surplus.

> The Imperium is a huge and wondrous place...why are all the ships so
> damned *boring*??!!!
>
> --
> Bruce Johnson

</quote>

I completely agree with this point, but there seems to be absolutely no
basis for pricing such ships.  Exactly how much is a forty year old free
trader?  (As an aside, am I the only one who has trouble accepting a 40 year
business loan? I don't know of many people today that even buy homes on 40
year loans, 20 and 10 years loans are much more common.)  In addition what
are the problems with said vessel?

I have done the cost calculations for my campaigns and new ships are 1/100
of list, used ships will be half to a quarter of that.  Wages and costs will
remain the same (and I've added in some berthing fees as well in MTU) but
cost of passages and shipping has been reduced.  As for the effects of age,
as I use a form of D6 I've pulled the mishap tables from the Star Wars Tramp
Freighters book <smile> YMMV

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 19:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Jun 13 18:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Santanocheev
In-Reply-To: <OFE9F0C5B4.92A4013C-ONCA256BD7.0012A900@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEPGEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>S finds out about the Warrant, and as Terry Carlino suggests:
>>I suspect that the Santanochev might have known about the warrant and
>>perhaps even **caused** the Warrant to be lost and then used IN forces
>>specifically loyal to him to try to prevent Norris from obtaining it.
>
>Right! _NOW_ you're thinking like a PC!
>
"I say, if you know the enemy and know yourself, the victory is not at
risk." SUN-TZU

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 19:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu Jun 13 18:41:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
Message-ID: <3D0948E7.959AD6B1@ameritech.net>

> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:42:14 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
> 
> David Shayne writes:
>> 
>> Because in the real world it just doesn't take that long to build
>> factories. Even in Traveller it doesn't take anywhere near that long.
>
> In the real world that's generally true, though once you count in
> required infrastructure upgrades the repayment time can climb into 
> the decades. However, the growth rate of the Traveller Imperium is
> very low, and the most likely reason for it to be low is if it's 
> very difficult to build additional production.
> 
>> From World Tamer's Handbook
>
> <snip computation>
>
> That's more proof a flaw with the WTH (it may or may not be
> believable, but it doesn't match the development pattern of the 
> OTU) than proof that upgrading is cheap.  

So let me get this straight. Real world examples and specific examples
from game books are somehow less valid than your nebulous assertion
that economic growth is too slow? Why not take a step back and think
about the possibility that the economy of the 3rd I might not be as
stagnant as you assume. Again show me any canon source that says the
Imperium is an economic backwater incapable of provably possible 
capital investment outlays.
 
> Also, does the cost of a unit of Heavy Industrial Capital include 
> all required mining and infrastructure?

No you caught me being lazy. One unit of Heavy IC requires 180 tonnes 
of Raw Materials per month and power generation capacity of 2.8 KW. 
One unit of Materials Capital costs Cr 4200 and produces 900 tonnes 
of RM per month. So the factory will require 1/5th of a MC + robot
and hence about 1/5th the cost of the IC plus robot combination. 
A small enough figure to not IMHO invalidate my thesis. 

>> and 3.2 months. Adding in the 20 year replacement rule to account for 
>> depreciation and it takes 90.688 months or just over 7 1/2 years to
>> complete a second factory.
>
> Huh?  If depreciation is 5% per year, and production is 13.76% per
> year, subtracting depreciation leaves you at 8.76% per year, or 
> around 11 years.  Of course, at 8.76% compound interest it only takes
> 7.9 years to double.

I probably stuffed up this calculation. On the other hand I'm not 
taking into account the production of the new IC either so I think it
evens out. Perhaps I can run a quick example using the full WTH rules
on two colonies one with robot production the other with human and we
can see what if anything we can learn from it.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 19:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Jun 13 18:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Environment and Culture
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEDBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020613183858.00a062c0@mindspring.com>

At 10:39 PM 6/12/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
> >
> >IAC, there are dangers almost everywhere. Down here it's huricanes and
> >tornados. In the midwest it's tornados. In river valleys it's floods.
> >In California, it's earthquakes. Around volcanos, it's lava. Up north,
> >it's blizzards.
>
>Well, almost everywhere the biggest danger is people driving cars.

And, I have to point out, almost anywhere on Earth you are going to get 
quakes.  Those of us living on the Ring of Fire just get them more frequently.

ObTrav: Hit your players with a flood basalt. If you want to know what one 
looks like, take a look at eastern Washington state.  That is a single 
flood basalt.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 19:52:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Jun 13 18:52:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <012101c21325$243117b0$b50fa118@upstairs>
References: <20020612012326.E213827B1C@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <00bf01c2124c$482c9150$b50fa118@upstairs>
 <rusfgucmgc3fs5jk4d4r0komhn9jh977j8@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020613184354.009ed2e0@mindspring.com>

At 05:47 PM 6/13/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Very interesting take on things. Does your Jumpspace 'kick the spaceship
>out' at the end of the 168+/-10% hours? Or could a ship remain in Jumpspace
>longer than the =/-10% dictates...if desired?

No. Time in jump is completely uncontrolled by the crew. Ships will go to 
"drop out watch at the edge of the average reemergence window, and stay 
there until they return to normal space. Worst case for a normal jump is 
they sit at jump stations for 33.6 hours.

Time extremes are one of the most common effects of a misjump; what it is 
called when a jump goes bad.  Times can vary wildly, from a few hours to 
many years (Referee discretion is a cruel thing.)

Think of jump as throwing a stone across a flat area. That stone will not 
hit the ground before gravity pulls it down. It won't hover either.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 19:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Edward Swatschek)
Date: Thu Jun 13 18:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ok, who's going to landgrab this one
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020613200340.009bb8a0@minn.net>
References: <200206132035.IJT02977@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <3.0.6.32.20020613200340.009bb8a0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <20020614015842.WULO2860.priv-edtnes11-hme0.telusplanet.net@there>

On Thursday 13 June 2002 18:03, Leslie Bates wrote:
> At 02:30 PM 6/13/2002 -0700, you wrote:
> >Strange. The article says that 55 Cancri is 41 million light years
> >away. http://www.jtwinc.com/Extrasolar/star.asp?StarID=4 puts its
> >distance at 44 light years (which seems a bit more reasonable).
>
> Which is 13.455657 parsecs, which places it in the Solomani Rim, but
> where?

It's roughly in the directin of Pollux, and 3 parsecs more distant, wuch 
would put it around the 2534 - 2736  sort of area.

In terms of star, 2835 Kukulcan is the best match (G7 V)

-- 
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 20:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun 13 19:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Boring Ships (was Re: Risks of Low Passage)
Message-ID: <8b.1980a0bd.2a3aaa58@aol.com>

Bruce Johnson writes:

>The Imperium is a huge and wondrous place...why are all the ships so 
>damned *boring*??!!!
>

because, unlike the *inhabitants* of the Third Imperium, it's designers can't 
get a subscription to "Imperial Starcraft - The Year in Review" (available in 
Professional and Newsstand editions).

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 20:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Thu Jun 13 19:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <012101c21325$243117b0$b50fa118@upstairs>
References: <20020612012326.E213827B1C@mail.travellercentral.com> <00bf01c2124c$482c9150$b50fa118@upstairs> <rusfgucmgc3fs5jk4d4r0komhn9jh977j8@4ax.com> <012101c21325$243117b0$b50fa118@upstairs>
Message-ID: <speigucuajmgvqodkav3urcnni6g6q3q60@4ax.com>

On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 17:47:19 -0400, "Sparky" <sparky13@nycap.rr.com>
wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "JR Holmes" <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
>I've always held to the theory that, unlike familiar space in which
>maximum speed is fixed (speed of light), Jump space instead has a
>"fixed" duration where the effective speed varies widely.  Thus Jump 1
>to Jump 6 and even a Jump 36 misjump all require the same duration.
>Of course, there is the side issue that my "fixed" duration is
>actually +/- 10% and so isn't quite fixed, but I generally ignore that
>from a layman's standpoint.
>------------------------------
>
>Very interesting take on things. Does your Jumpspace 'kick the spaceship
>out' at the end of the 168+/-10% hours? Or could a ship remain in =
Jumpspace
>longer than the =3D/-10% dictates...if desired?

My take on things was that the 168 hours (+/-) was a very firmly fixed
duration and related to the inherent physics of jump.  The ship will
emerge from Jumpspace at that time regardless of what the crew
attempts.  Even misjumps still drop at that same amount of time.

In some ways, think of it a bit like teleportation, but instead of it
being instantaneous, the "instant" is experienced, both in Jumpspace
and without, as 168 hours.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 20:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Thu Jun 13 19:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <OGBBICAMOLJHJILPIOEPMEPHCAAA.kaukgannir@comcast.net>
References: <012101c21325$243117b0$b50fa118@upstairs> <OGBBICAMOLJHJILPIOEPMEPHCAAA.kaukgannir@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <j9figukmcf6df6jd6kqtl5ae8s12s28dns@4ax.com>

On Mon, 13 Jun 2016 17:27:16 -0500, Erich Brackmann
<kaukgannir@comcast.net> wrote:

>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "JR Holmes" <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
>I've always held to the theory that, unlike familiar space in which
>maximum speed is fixed (speed of light), Jump space instead has a
>"fixed" duration where the effective speed varies widely.  Thus Jump 1
>to Jump 6 and even a Jump 36 misjump all require the same duration.
>Of course, there is the side issue that my "fixed" duration is
>actually +/- 10% and so isn't quite fixed, but I generally ignore that
>from a layman's standpoint.
>------------------------------
>
>Very interesting take on things. Does your Jumpspace 'kick the spaceship
>out' at the end of the 168+/-10% hours? Or could a ship remain in =
Jumpspace
>longer than the =3D/-10% dictates...if desired?
>
>Sparky
>
>
>There is a 'timespeed' limit instead of a velocity limit?  I can go as =
fast
>as I want, but for only a period of time? :)
>- Erich

Yes.  Impose on that the familiar jump quanta and thigs work out to be
pretty close to the familiar universe.

Of course, I arrived at this rationalization before too much had been
published about Jump physics.  It was adequate for the sort of games I
was playing at the time.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 20:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Jun 13 19:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
In-Reply-To: <000c01c21343$69746ed0$1c577b83@Gideon>
References: <F1753fvr9FFf70DQLGJ000011d7@hotmail.com>
 <3D0935A6.2060207@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <000c01c21343$69746ed0$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <m33cvqwqt5.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Anthony Colosetti" <acoloset@kent.edu> writes:

> As an aside, am I the only one who has trouble accepting a 40 year
> business loan?  I don't know of many people today that even buy
> homes on 40 year loans, 20 and 10 years loans are much more common.

Around here it's 15 and 30, and most folks have 30 year loans.  Forty
years really doesn't seem that long a term when you think that a ship
is an interstellar vehicle which should last centuries, if properly
taken care of.  Just as almost no-one ever pays off a house mortgage
(just upgrades to a new home when possible), so too I can imagine that
almost no-one ever pays off a ship mortgage, but merely sells off the
ship when the opportunity for a better one arises (or a worse one, if
quick cash is needed).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 20:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun 13 19:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #619 - 23 msgs
Message-ID: <OFD3B846A1.CCCD2FAD-ONCA256BD8.000C9473@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Bruce opined:
>The Imperium is a huge and wondrous place...why are all the ships so 
>damned *boring*??!!!

Bruce is allowed to whinge. He came up with the Orrimot, after all.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 20:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun 13 19:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Environment and Culture
Message-ID: <cc.cf42dc4.2a3aaca5@aol.com>

Doug Berry writes:

>ObTrav: Hit your players with a flood basalt. If you want to know what
>one 
>looks like, take a look at eastern Washington state.  That is a single
>flood basalt.
>

Or more precisely, a single source-zone that was slopping new layers over the 
old at a remarkable rate.

What is more impressive to me, and more germane for a good environmental 
threat in-game, is the generally held opinion among rock-hounds that the 
steep-walled canyons that riddle eastern Washington state (including much of 
the Columbia River itself) were carved in *weeks* when one of the big glacial 
melt lakes popped...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 20:22:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Jun 13 19:22:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...to Scientific Advances
In-Reply-To: <014601c21328$c1201500$b50fa118@upstairs>
References: <20613.014642.3M9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020613185325.009eeec0@mindspring.com>

At 06:21 PM 6/13/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Relatedly, I've been wondering how subspace is supposed to work in Star Trek
>(of all things) A starbase sends out an SOS for help from the enterprise and
>subspace sometimes can travel faster than they can (and sometimes not.)
>Supposedly, part of the explanation is that subspace uses tachyons, which
>seem to travel backward in time and speed up communication.

It's a plot device.  Nothing more. I don;t thing they spent more than one 
minute thinking about any of the "science" that show.  (ST:TNG was even 
worse about this.)


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
                             - Rose Platt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 20:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Jun 13 19:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] why does travel cost so much?
In-Reply-To: <200206140100.IKB05298@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEPIEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>What's odd about the duration idea is that all Traveller
>jumps are one week.  There's no "short hop" where I could
>charge less and make more short hops to make up the
>difference.
>
A "short hop" is a J-1 passage to the next world up the main. The problem
with the "How much does it cost to travel" discussion is that when you limit
yourself to single jumps (at J-1,2,3) when you're basically talking about
local travel. A middle class worker might be able to save for years to take
the trip, then if (s)he can get a month off, actually take the trip. But
they'll only travel one jump.

Looking over the Solomani Rim (From Rim of Fire) I don't see many worlds
worth visiting that are only 1 jump form each other. All this point me to
the conclusion that most Travellers going more than 1 jump are either rich,
travel for business (like the 19th and early 20th century traveling
salesmen) or are emigrants going on a once in a lifetime trips.

It would take much more than any working person could afford to travel to
another sector, let alone to another Domain. Travelling to Capital is not
going to be on option for the average citizen. Even going to the sector
capital is pretty impossible.

So who travels? Members of the above groups. So on a typical liner you'll
see lots and lots of lower upper class rich people going middle passage and
a few wealthy people going high passage. Of course, the really wealthy
people will be traveling in their own yachts.  And then they'll be the many
desperate travellers who travel by low passage. This will be those who sell
off every thing they own to raise passage. Hopefully they be traveling in GT
ships and not CT ships. :)


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 20:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Thu Jun 13 19:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Environment and Culture
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020613183858.00a062c0@mindspring.com>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEDBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020613183858.00a062c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <p6ligu0icvl3pnmk780asiffhe143dv1bu@4ax.com>

On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:40:55 -0700, Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:

>At 10:39 PM 6/12/02 -0700, you wrote:
>> >From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
>> >
>> >IAC, there are dangers almost everywhere. Down here it's huricanes =
and
>> >tornados. In the midwest it's tornados. In river valleys it's floods.
>> >In California, it's earthquakes. Around volcanos, it's lava. Up =
north,
>> >it's blizzards.
>>
>>Well, almost everywhere the biggest danger is people driving cars.
>
>And, I have to point out, almost anywhere on Earth you are going to get=20
>quakes.  Those of us living on the Ring of Fire just get them more =
frequently.
>
>ObTrav: Hit your players with a flood basalt. If you want to know what =
one=20
>looks like, take a look at eastern Washington state.  That is a single=20
>flood basalt.

And flood basalts are nothing to lightly ignore.  Recent findings
appear to lay the Permian extinction (248 million year ago, 90%
oceanic life and 60% terrestrial life killed) to a huge flood basalt
that covered what is now Siberia.  10s of thousands of square miles of
sulphur and ash spewing volcanic caldera.  Enough to darken the skies
for a few hundred years and the sulphur made much of the water acid
enough to kill aquatic life.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 20:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Erich Brackmann)
Date: Thu Jun 13 19:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <j9figukmcf6df6jd6kqtl5ae8s12s28dns@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <OGBBICAMOLJHJILPIOEPOEPOCAAA.kaukgannir@comcast.net>

>Very interesting take on things. Does your Jumpspace 'kick the spaceship
>out' at the end of the 168+/-10% hours? Or could a ship remain in Jumpspace
>longer than the =/-10% dictates...if desired?
>
>Sparky
>
>
>There is a 'timespeed' limit instead of a velocity limit?  I can go as fast
>as I want, but for only a period of time? :)
>- Erich

Yes.  Impose on that the familiar jump quanta and thigs work out to be
pretty close to the familiar universe.

Of course, I arrived at this rationalization before too much had been
published about Jump physics.  It was adequate for the sort of games I
was playing at the time.

 It's fairly close to my own personal view of how it worked.  I guess I tend
more towards the hand-waving and opera end of the gaming spectrum.  So let
me see if I have this straight or not.
		Crew plots a course to the next solar system.  A navigator is necessary
because a 'jump' is not purely dependant on the mathematics or physics of
the events.  Who interjects the 'intuition' needed for successful
application.  This also accounts for the variation in jump duration.
		The jump drive is activated, and in effect, throws the space ship into an
alternate space.  This intial throw is determined by the jump drive itself
(it's rating) and the configuration/plot set by the navigation system (jump
grid in MegaTraveller terms).  This alternate space has a much higher
congruence than the regular universe, so moving a distance of X in it,
corresponds to a vast distance where we can observe it.  This also takes us
around the old lightspeed limit.  There are different levels of this
jumpspace, with greater and greater observed speed effects.  This is also
why you cannot have a jump-3 ship make a trip in 1/3rd the normal time.
		Like a rock thrown upwards, eventually the ship comes back 'down' and pops
back out.
		Right? :)
		- Erich


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 13 21:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Jun 13 20:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Generic Sol Sector: was Landgrab of 55 Cancri
In-Reply-To: <20020614015842.WULO2860.priv-edtnes11-hme0.telusplanet.net
 @there>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020613200340.009bb8a0@minn.net>
 <200206132035.IJT02977@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20020613200340.009bb8a0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020613220039.009c28d0@minn.net>

At 06:58 PM 6/13/2002 -0700, Edward Swatschek wrote:
>On Thursday 13 June 2002 18:03, Leslie Bates wrote:
>> At 02:30 PM 6/13/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>> >Strange. The article says that 55 Cancri is 41 million light years
>> >away. http://www.jtwinc.com/Extrasolar/star.asp?StarID=4 puts its
>> >distance at 44 light years (which seems a bit more reasonable).
>>
>> Which is 13.455657 parsecs, which places it in the Solomani Rim, but
>> where?
>
>It's roughly in the directin of Pollux, and 3 parsecs more distant, wuch 
>would put it around the 2534 - 2736  sort of area.
>
>In terms of star, 2835 Kukulcan is the best match (G7 V)

Perhaps it is time to construct a generic Sol sector for campaigns which
are not connected to or influenced by Ancients-Ziru Sirka timeline. 

One of the things I've noticed when mucking about with CHview was a
possible jump-2 two route (which I mentally labeled 'the circuit') and that
that 61 Cygni was also a bit harder to jump to. 

On my experimental generic 2D Sol sector map I made the following changes:

'Apishal' moved from 1622 to 1621
61 Cygni moved from 1822 to 1821
Ross 154 moved from 1824 to 1724
Barnard moved from 1926 to 1825
Alpha Centauri moved from 2027 to 2026
82 Eridani moved from 1332 to 1431

Can anyone think of other possible changes?


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 01:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 00:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <B92DF18E.5ED9C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20613.233120.3J4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 6/13/02 4:40 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>>> That would be a surprise to most cell companies, as the typical cell phone
>>> uses an 8k or 13k vocoder.
>> 
>> Right. The *digitization rate* is 8k samples per second. Times 8 bits
>> per sample gives 64k *bits* per second. And those 8 bits use coding
>> tricks to get more dynamic range that the 256 levels that straight
>> conversion would give.
>> 
>> This follows the rule of sampling at twice the rate of the highest
>> frequency you want to handle (4 kHz for phone quality voice).
>
> Got it, thanks.  I seem to remember something about this now.  It's only
> been 4 or 5 years since my CDMA classes.
>
> Aren't there also some tricks using ADPCM to decrease bandwidth?

Probably. But that's getting beyond the stuff I can reliably remember
without references at hand.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 01:19:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 00:19:19 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEPDEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20613.233244.0a2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>>>Newtonian physics is TL *3*. And it still works perfectly well as long
>>>>as you avoid relativistic velocities, scales where quantum effects are
>>>>important and insanely huge gravity fields.
>>>>
>>>>The corrections for any of the above are microscopic under "normal"
>>>>circumstances.
>>>>
>>> But at TL3 only a handful of people knew about Newtonian Physics.
>>
>>TL3 ends in 1860. A *lot* of folks knew Newtonian physics in 1860!
>>
>>>>Maxwell equations are TL4. And stll work outside the quantum domain.
>>>>
>>> Same thing. When Maxwell proposed his equations vector calculus was still
>>> unexplored and the four equations required pages and pages of regular
>>> calculus to illustrate. The number of people equipped with the proper
>>> training to understand those concepts was fairly small.
>>
>>TL4 ends in 1900. Again, anybody with any training in physics beyond
>>the most basic was exposed to them.
>
> I'm afraid that TL is much too coarse a system to illustrate my point. I
> should have realized that before I made my comment. The examples were
> probably badly chosen to make my point.
>
>>> When talking TL you are talking both science and engineering. Why
>>> would anyone make a flintlock when they could make a percussion cap.
>>
>>Because all you need to keep a flinlock going is essentially *medieval*
>>(or even Roman) tech.
>>
> But what do you mean by tech in this case? The flintlock itself is TL 2
> through 3? The medieval or even Roman tech is TL1. This is the real point.
> If a device was invented historically in a specific period does that make
> the device the corresponding TL? If a flintlock was historically developed
> at TL2, but can be built at TL1 is it a TL2 device or a TL1 device? Further,
> how do we tell if it could have been built at a lower TL?

If you handed them one and asked them to copy it and the copy works,
then their TL is capable of it. <g>

> I mean you can say: Well they had wire at TL1 and knew how to make acid at
> TL1 so does that mean they could make an electromagnet. But if you can make
> an electromagnet at TL1 then does that mean you can make a motor at TL2? You
> see where I'm going with this?

Sure, but there's a difference between tools & techniques, and the
*knowledge* that tells you you can build something *without* having an
example in hand. 

> "TL" is not a very good way to talk about this. Book 6 relates TL to
> specific historical periods. I suspect, but don't really know, that the
> writers intended TL to reflect technology available in a specific historical
> period. This would certainly make it easier on the GM. TL1? It's a medieval
> setting; horses, wagons, no firearms. As someone else mentioned this was
> probably good enough for a pocket empire, pre-OTU setting, but probably
> doesn't work well for the OTU.

It's got major problems. alas, the only "workable" alternative isn't
all *that* workable (my frequently mentioned idea of "how many
iterations of "build the tools to build the tools" do you need to go
thru) 

>>> Heck if they can make power cells and ultra high temperature
>>> superconductors why not make a gauss gun?
>>
>>True enough.
>>
> So in the spirit of not just going on and on about how it's wrong why don't
> we fix it?  Let's create an optional TML tech level extension to the UPP to
> better and more consistently apply to the type of TU where lower TL worlds
> can produce anachronistic devices. Add a listing for imported devices that
> are commonly available for purchase there and we'll really have something
> that will be useful to GMs and players alike.
>
> How about it?

Great idea. Now, who is going to sit down and figure out what level
every device the players might come up with can be built at? 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 01:20:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 00:20:36 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20020614083329.B32200@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20613.233720.2Z4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> The exchange equipment may be capable of 100 kbps, but the *lines*
>> aren't.
>
> At least some are.  My own voice-grade line is certainly capable of at
> least 128 kb/s, since it actually passes that much data.  In fact the
> line is almost certainly capable of at least 1500 kb/s.  The current
> limit is the equipment at either end, not the line itself.  Yes, I
> agree that some lines are a *lot* worse, especially the longer ones in
> rural areas.

DSL isn't using the same frequency range as analog voice or ISDN. So
you have more bandwidth because the frequency limits are different.
That's why you need those filters on the lines going to the rest of the
phones.

> The fact remains that consumer modems don't make use of the full
> bitrate that is often available.  Partly for regulatory reasons,
> partly for technical reasons.

They do make use of the full *bandwidth* they are allocated. 30-3000
Hz. And they can make use up up to 4000 Hz if allowed. But that's the
limit. 

DSL and the like use *much* higher frequencies, and have to have their
signals split off and jhandled by different equipment. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 02:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Jun 14 01:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] why does travel cost so much?
In-Reply-To: <20020614015407.C8F3627CA1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17Im7e-0008IU-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:

> Tod Glenn asks
> >So why is passage so costly (cr10,000 or US $29,200 in 
> >adjusted dollars).  It seems like passage cost should be 
> >significantly lower.
> >
> 
> Passage cost may be partly influenced by the duration - how 
> long could you possibly be on an airliner today?  And for 
> those really long flights, how much do they cost?  If I 
> wanted to fly from Washington, D.C. to visit Rupert in New 
> Zealand, I'm betting I would be on a plane for over 18 hours, 
> and the ticket would cost several thousand dollars one way.  
> For those short flights within the US, that have many planes 
> on the same route, let's say, from D.C. to Atlanta, it's 
> really cheap.

Agreed, being in a high acceleration interplanetary ship is similar to 
being on a long airline flight (and likely really cheap), a trip on a 
starship is far more similar in duration and general experience to 
being on a ocean-going ship.
 
> BTW, the fuel cost per passenger seat mile for a 747 is 
> supposed to be far, far more economical than any other mode 
> of transportation using an internal combustion engine - ship, 
> train, or ground vehicle.  So on that long flight from here 
> to NZ, that plane is making money.

Actually, that's not true, airplane suck boulders wrt efficiency.  For 
example, they produce about as much air pollution per passenger 
as if every passenger drove *alone* in a car to the destination.  
OTOH, ships are *far* more efficient (as are airships, but they are 
not astoundingly practical for a number of reasons).  Airplanes use 
up vast amounts of fuel.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 02:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Jun 14 01:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hi tech versus low tech
In-Reply-To: <20613.233720.2Z4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020614083329.B32200@freeman.little-possums.net> <20613.233720.2Z4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020614182320.A813@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> DSL isn't using the same frequency range as analog voice or ISDN.

Yep, fully agreed.  I was just refuting your contention that the
*lines* aren't capable of 100 kbps.

To summarise, my original post was refuting the contention that
voice-grade connections have a Shannon limit of 2.4 kbps, and that
modems greatly exceed the Shannon limit.  They don't.

Voice-grade exchange equipment and the phone lines nominally allow
bandwidth at a sufficiently high quality for the Shannon limit to be
around 100 kbps.  Even the best modems don't come close to the Shannon
limit for a voice-grade line, let alone exceed it.

That's all I was (cumbersomely) trying to say.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 02:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri Jun 14 01:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Unboring ships (was Re: Risks of Low Passage)
In-Reply-To: <20020614015407.C8F3627CA1@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020614015407.C8F3627CA1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <hgajguoab7lphlgiu8rbghku1h2aoag862@4ax.com>

On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:52:59 -0700, "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:

>     Because Mr. Moffatt-Vallance's HGS program is only a few years old?
>     How about another TML contest?  We could have the "First Ever TML Show 
>Us Your Ships Rodeo" in a similar manner to the PC contest last year.
>     Folks could enter any ship that a group of PCs has a reasonable* chance 
>of owning/operating, either as merchants, gun bunnies, freelance scouts, 
>whatever.  Submissions would include for what and whom the ship and it's 
>class were made for, how they're used now, how PCs normally get their furry 
>little mitts on 'em, and so forth.  We won't be looking only at USP lines or 
>tweaked tonnages, but the actual RPG chrome; verbiage, verbiage, and more 
>verbiage!  Explain in WORDS what make your vessel the bee's knees.
>     What does everyone say?  It's been months since our last soi disant 
>contest.

Anyone who copies their entries to editor@freelancetraveller.com or
submissions@freelancetraveller.com gets their entry immortalized in the
Freelance Traveller shipyard!  Alternatively, put an explicit permission
for me to snarf in your posting to the TML (though separate send is
preferred).

I would very much have liked to see this sort of description to the extant
shipyard documents.  If the authors of those ships send such descriptions,
I'll be more than happy to add them.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 05:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Fri Jun 14 04:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship crew. (was "Data security...")
Message-ID: <F1709GNBabKwanNnVi600002eb0@hotmail.com>

In Digest 616[1], "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com> sent
<<SNIP my stuff>>
>...or a teenager hacker with a crush on your group's "hot" pilot.
>
>Eris
>
It's just a nasty little lie - he never went into the engine room at all, 
just hung around outside whilst the Engineer repaired the cracked feed pipe.
The Engineer?  She *is* hot!  At least, you'd think so, considering her 
normal (lack of) ship dress[2].

[1]Um, TMLDigest seems to have got warped again...

[2]We use miniatures (occasionaly:-) - someone found a female 'MechWarrior' 
fig wearing a "ballistic" vest and very short shorts...

Jeff.

"They are passing out... spray them with adrenaline"

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 06:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Fri Jun 14 05:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture
Message-ID: <OF9B67B882.566C1C33-ON42256BD8.00228FF7@ko.com>

"That wasn't Cicero - Carthage was already gone by his time (in fact
there'd already been at least one attempt to re-build by then)."

It was Cato the Elder. And considering that Hannibal had spent the previous
16 years cruising around Italy, rousing the Celts and any other people who
were not too happy with Roman dominance, leading the Roman armies on a
merry chase, and refusing to have the good grace to lose whenever he was
engaged in battle, it's not surprising that Cato was so vitriolic.

Are the military leaders of the Third Imperium promoted on the basis of
merit or political influence? I suspect the former on the borders and the
latter at the Core. How big a role does Psionics play in the Zhodani war
machine, given that its leadership are all adepts (general staff, not
teleporting commandos).
After playing through Broadsword several years ago and running afoul of
Zhodani commandos, it became standard practice for our group to string up a
web of thin wires all over our ship whenever we made planetfall very close
to the Zhodani border. Never worked.


Regards

Clint Rynners



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 06:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Jun 14 05:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] why does travel cost so much?
In-Reply-To: <200206140100.IKB05298@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D0A85F4.10628.A962F@localhost>

On 13 Jun 2002 at 21:00, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Passage cost may be partly influenced by the duration - how 
> long could you possibly be on an airliner today?  And for 
> those really long flights, how much do they cost?  If I 
> wanted to fly from Washington, D.C. to visit Rupert in New 
> Zealand, I'm betting I would be on a plane for over 18 hours, 
> and the ticket would cost several thousand dollars one way. 

You'd lose. :)

Wellington, NZ to London, UK is about NZ$2000 return (cattle class).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 07:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Fri Jun 14 06:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] PC Ships (was Risks of Low Passage)
Message-ID: <E17Ir3k-0002DG-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

I like this idea for a ship contest.  I for one am not the biggest gearhead=
 and don't have the time to design all sorts of tramp merchants.  Usually I=
 just make up the displacement (and armament if needed) on the fly.  This i=
s the kind of ship descriptions that could be easily used to populate a sta=
rport or inflight encounter.  Not only that but your occasional ECM may use=
 one as well.  (If you believe in them that is. :) )  I second the nominati=
on.

Beth

> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>=20
>      "Has no one considered that Marava-class free traders are probably
> *never* purchased new at the list price? Companies like Tukera buy 'em
> by the gross, at steep discounts for various JIT delivery and courier
> services."
>=20
>=20
> Mr. Johnson,
>=20
>      Exactly!  Please go on...
>=20
>      "Player characters shouldn't be buying new ones, and someone with
> only one ship ain't going to be buying them new, either, but surplus."
>=20
>      Yes, yes!  Sell it to 'em, Doc, sell it to 'em!
>=20
>      "True free traders are going to be poking along in a motley
> assortment of old, creaky ships: scout/couriers, far/free traders, and th=
e=20
> myriad of surplussed civilian and  military logistics vessels that have=
=20
> never been cataloged in official Traveller publications, ranging in size=
=20
> from 100-5000 tons."
>=20
>      That a way to bring it home, Doc!  Perfectly put!  Superb!
>=20
>      "How many tramp freighter captains have ever bought their vessels ne=
w?"
>=20
>      None, unless they got their funding from certain businessmen in=20
> Columbia...
>=20
>      "I can hardly believe that the Imperium, 1200 years old, and 13,000
> worlds strong makes a paltry 3 models of starship on the PC's scale,
> yet over and over again players have a 200 ton far trader and they
> *always* look like a damned Beowulf!!!"
>=20
>      "The Imperium is a huge and wondrous place...why are all the ships s=
o=20
> damned *boring*??!!!"
>=20
>      Because Mr. Moffatt-Vallance's HGS program is only a few years old?
>      How about another TML contest?  We could have the "First Ever TML Sh=
ow=20
> Us Your Ships Rodeo" in a similar manner to the PC contest last year.
>      Folks could enter any ship that a group of PCs has a reasonable* cha=
nce=20
> of owning/operating, either as merchants, gun bunnies, freelance scouts,=
=20
> whatever.  Submissions would include for what and whom the ship and it's=
=20
> class were made for, how they're used now, how PCs normally get their fur=
ry=20
> little mitts on 'em, and so forth.  We won't be looking only at USP lines=
 or=20
> tweaked tonnages, but the actual RPG chrome; verbiage, verbiage, and more=
=20
> verbiage!  Explain in WORDS what make your vessel the bee's knees.
>      What does everyone say?  It's been months since our last soi disant=
=20
> contest.
>=20
>=20
>      Sincerely,
>      Commodore Larsen
>=20
> * No demilitarized AHLs puh-leez....
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>=20

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 07:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Songy)
Date: Fri Jun 14 06:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] THUDDD
Message-ID: <000701c2131f$d47e0de0$65114682@louisina.edu>

I'm interested in the new THUDDD, though I am not on the TML.

What do I need to do?

- Brian Songy
- bsongy@louisiana.edu
- 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 08:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Jun 14 07:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] THUDDD
In-Reply-To: <000701c2131f$d47e0de0$65114682@louisina.edu>
Message-ID: <20020614140523.5083.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

Well, The new THUDDD (aka ISSDEC) seems to have
fizzled out.  I'm still waiting on votes from the may
competition.  We had five entrants and so far only two
votes.  I am closing the voting sometime next week an
I'm going to be on vacation the last week of June and
the first week of July, but after that, if anyone is
interested, we can have the descriptive contest that
was recently mentioned on the TML.


Paul

--- Brian Songy <bsongy@louisiana.edu> wrote:
> I'm interested in the new THUDDD, though I am not on
> the TML.
> 
> What do I need to do?
> 
> - Brian Songy
> - bsongy@louisiana.edu
> - 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 08:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Jun 14 07:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture
Message-ID: <200206141416.ILC00183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Clint Rynners" says
>After playing through Broadsword several years ago and 
>running afoul of Zhodani commandos, it became standard 
>practice for our group to string up a web of thin wires all 
>over our ship whenever we made planetfall very close
>to the Zhodani border. Never worked.
>
All you need is to put sentry guns with IFF interrogators 
(and IFF tags for the crew) in some areas.  Even if they 
teleport into a closet aboard your ship, they'll get killed 
when they come out.

One of the things that I borrowed from Aliens for MTU is the 
sentry gun (there's a variety of weaponry that it can be 
fitted with, but the gauss rifle with a hopper feed instead 
of a 40-rd magazine is just fine for most situations).  It 
has a much faster reaction time than any human, so I always 
have it fire first.  The only way to kill one is to use an 
indirect weapon (careful, because it will shoot at the 
satchel charge), or plan on sacrificing one or more people as 
you attack it simultaneously from different directions.  
Depending on how it's set up, this may not even be possible.

Now, two sentry guns covering each other is a real treat.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 08:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Jun 14 07:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] why does travel cost so much?
Message-ID: <200206141422.ILD00380@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
>Wellington, NZ to London, UK is about NZ$2000 return (cattle 
>class).
>

There's yet another factor influencing rates - how many 
people want to fly from NZ to the UK, as opposed to how many 
people want to fly from NZ to, say, Rio de Janiero? On a 
daily basis?

Then there's that "hub" system that routes you through cities 
you didn't intend to visit, like Pittsburgh.  If we wonder 
why some planets have starports, and others that should be 
able to have them don't, or why the routes are where they 
are, just take a look at the hubs and routes for US airlines.

Why do I have to go through Cincinnati if I want to fly from 
Washington, DC to Greensboro, NC?  And why is the ticket 
cheaper than a direct flight?  And why are four out of five 
tickets for that route NOT direct?

Maybe I shouldn't ask the Traveller universe of routes and 
starports to make sense, since the RW is bizarre enough.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 08:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Jun 14 07:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] PC Ships (was Risks of Low Passage)
Message-ID: <200206141422.ILD00540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'll have one done in a little while.  Hang on.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 08:25:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Jun 14 07:25:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEDBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEDBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20020614152605.3697a494.jenry023@student.liu.se>

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Carthago delindum esse, or words to that effect.

Or, for that matter, actions to that effect   *grin*

Modern translation: "Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

Why don't the cultures in Traveller (except the K'Kree) use drastic measures more often? What kind of noblesse oblige binds the Third Imperium not to destroy a world that has gone completely xenophobic, lining up automated nuclear weapons as system defences?

Sure, they could always ignore such a system, but not it it's located on a critical branch of a main. What would the Imperium do in such a case?

/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 08:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Jun 14 07:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Weird email
In-Reply-To: <000001c21322$bb1cae30$6401a8c0@GOCA>
References: <200206131054.IIZ03861@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <000001c21322$bb1cae30$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <20020614151532.6337f9ef.jenry023@student.liu.se>

J-Man <j-man@attbi.com> wrote:
> Actually...Outlook is Microsoft's failed attempt to create Artificial
> Intelligence.
> 
> I believe Bill Gates' neurons were impressed in the code.......

Microsoft Works is an oxymoron.

/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 08:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Jun 14 07:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture
Message-ID: <200206141448.ILD05902@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jens Rydholm says
>Why don't the cultures in Traveller (except the K'Kree) use 
>drastic measures more often? What kind of noblesse oblige 
>binds the Third Imperium not to destroy a world that has 
>gone completely xenophobic, lining up automated nuclear 
>weapons as system defences?
>
I don't have any good reason why they wouldn't pound a place 
like that.  There's an interesting presentation on the idea 
in Charles Pellegrino's "The Killing Star" where he posits 
the idea that if you have an opponent who has the capability 
to muster energies sufficient for interstellar flight, then 
those same energies are also a weapon - a weapon with rapid, 
genocidal, species-destroying consequences.  In a situation 
where you perceive that your opponent may employ those 
weapons in such a manner, you cannot afford to be "wrong" - 
that is, you can't act as though your opponent might resolve 
the conflict peacefully, because if you're wrong, you're gone.

The Imperium is of sufficient size to prevent species 
destruction by one or two wayward, violent systems.  But a 
similarly sized entity, such as the Zhodani, could pose such 
a threat.  I am quite surprised that in the FFW, there wasn't 
a lot of planet-busting going on.  Of course, I'm also 
surprised that I didn't end up holding a marshmallow to the 
sky during the Cold War, either.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 08:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Jun 14 07:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Weird email (ObTrav)
In-Reply-To: <20020612215237.776C227BDA@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <3D07809E.1090600@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020612215237.776C227BDA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020614145336.6451fd02.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
> I'm still using an old OS/2 email client. It doesn't to fancy html or
> "rich text" displays, it doesn't display pictures inline, it doesn't
> automatically run scripts or programs, and it makes my deal with
> attachments manually, but it works just fine, so why should I change
> to something else?
> 
> I can think of several Ob Travellers, that I will leave to the
> imagination of the Referee.  

The most obvious ObTrav here is the fact that Traveller computers are not evolved as one would expect. This is obviously because the potential for viruses and similiar problems.

The Long Night was caused by an overloaded X-boat network after Terran computer viruses entered the communications network, multiplying, and soon drowning the network in traffic. The economy of the Second Imperium collapsed under the weight of a X-boat network that needed to double its capacity every second month.

/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 09:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Fri Jun 14 08:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <20020614101825.A32536@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206141657530.9736-100000@svati>

On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, Timothy Little wrote:

>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Actually, any world where you can live on the surface *will* have time
>> zones. Being more or less synched with the sun is important. And I
>> don't see steps biggr than an "hour" or two being likely.
>
>That'll be fun on planets where the local "day" is 296 hours long :)

Actually Kwai Ching is even worse at a local day of 585.6 hours. :) (From
GT: First In). That is 12 standard days of daytime and 12 standard days
of nighttime.

>- Tim

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 09:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 08:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <20020613182021.84DDC27C8C@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20614.080226.3m0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 06/13/02 at 11:25 PM,  "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
> said:
>
>>On 12 Jun 2002 at 18:09, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>>> The old quart (32 oz) is dead, replaced by the 1 liter. I expect 16 oz
>>> to die out in favor of 1/2 liter eventually.
>
>>It's funny, but that's one area where the US gallon is 'better' than 
>>the Imperial one - a US quart is much closer to a litre than an 
>>Imperial quart is (inside 3% instead of 13%).
>
> Yep, over here a quart is 32 fld. oz. and a liter is something like
> 33.5 fld. oz. We consider the extra ounce or two to be lagniappe, not
> an assault on our weights and measures. <g>  I often think we should
> just jiggle the fluid ounce so that there are exactly 32 in a liter,
> the inch to be exactly 2.5 cm, and the pound to be exactly 2 kg...ha!

I wish they'd decided to *define* the speed of light sooner. Then they
could have made it 300,000,000 m/s *exactly*. <g>

A small adjustment to the size of the meter would have done it. <sigh>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 10:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 09:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <m3adpzxbox.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20614.080434.7q2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com> writes:
>>
>> I often think we should just jiggle the fluid ounce so that there
>> are exactly 32 in a liter, the inch to be exactly 2.5 cm, and the
>> pound to be exactly 2 kg
>
> But then the fluid ounce of water would no longer weigh an ounce.
> What I think we need to do is adjust the pint to be exactly a pound
> (as it's suppose to) so that a gallon is eight pounds (as it's
> supposed to be), adjust the mile to be a multiple of a large power of
> twelve and make the cup some appropriate number of cubic inches (12 or
> 16 would do nicely).  Done right, most signage and tools would be
> close enough for government work.

Do note that places like the UK get really puzzled by measurements like
the cup. They don't measure ingredients for cooking by *volume*. They
go by *weight*. Which leads to much puzzlement when confronted by a
recipe from the US/Canada. 

And the cup is based on the quart, and is part of a series of
measurements.

      1 bushel = 4 pecks
        1 peck = 2 gallons
      1 gallon = 2 pottles (obsolete)
      1 pottle = 2 quarts
       1 quart = 2 pint
        1 pint = 2 cups
         1 cup = 8 fluid ounces
 1 fluid ounce = 2 tablespoons
  1 tablespoon = 3 teaspoons
   
BTW, a US gallon is *exactly* 231 cubic inches. It's defined that way
somewhere (One of my old CRC handbooks has that conversion listed with
the mark indicating that it's a *defined* conversion).

It's an ugly conversion factor, but at least it's a relatively easy to
remember one. (so a 3x7x11 box holds 1 gallon...)

      1 bushel = 924 cu. in.
        1 peck = 462 cu. in.
      1 gallon = 231 cu. in.
      1 pottle = 115.5		= 115 1/2
       1 quart =  57.75         =  57 3/4
        1 pint =  28.875        =  28 7/8
         1 cup =  14.4375       =  14 7/16
 1 fluid ounce =   1.8046875    =   1 103/128
  1 tablespoon =   0.90234375   =     231/256
    1 teaspoon =   0.30078125   =     231/768

Simple!

Making a pint 12 cubic inches would change the volume by almost 17%.
Making it 16 would change it by 11%. *way* too big a change in either
case.

As for the mile, the powers of 12 are 144, 1728, and 20736. Making a
mile 1728 *yards* would make it 5184 feet. Which is only 2% smaller.
But still *way* too big a change. 

Remember, property (in the US) is based on townships, sections and
acres. *All* of which are based on the length of the mile!

A township is a square 6 miles on a side. A section is one mile square.

And there are 640 acres to the section.

A quick web search found this site. Has some nice diagrams.

http:\\www.outfitters.com\genealogy\land\twprange.html

I'll have to check the bit about computer programs.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 10:05:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 09:05:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <20020614081020.A32200@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20614.085146.2r6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>> But then the fluid ounce of water would no longer weigh an ounce.
>
> Yes it would: with a fluid ounce being 1/32 of a litre, then a fluid
> ounce of water has a mass of 31.25 grams (under appropriate
> conditions).  With a pound being 500 grams, a 16th of a pound is also
> 31.25 grams.  Solved!

Only at the cost of *really* screwing up all *existing* measurements
done with pounds and US liquid (and dry) measures.

The ounce is currently 28.35 grams (exact). So you'd by making the
ounce over 10% larger. 

You'd only be making the fluid ounce about 5.6% bigger. 

It's *way* too late for such modifications to the system.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 10:06:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 09:06:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <3D09C55F.17932.4FB2BC@localhost>
Message-ID: <20614.085550.2h4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 13 Jun 2002 at 12:42, Robert Uhl wrote:
>
>> "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com> writes:
>> >
>> > I often think we should just jiggle the fluid ounce so that there
>> > are exactly 32 in a liter, the inch to be exactly 2.5 cm, and the
>> > pound to be exactly 2 kg
>> 
>> But then the fluid ounce of water would no longer weigh an ounce.
>
> Got some news for you - the Imperial fluid ounce (40 to the quart) is 
> almost exactly an ounce in weight (assuming water), while the US fliud 
> ounce is a few per cent bigger (and thus heavier).

Could you send me a table for Imperial liquid (and dry) measure,
similar to the one I just posted for US?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 10:07:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 09:07:44 2002
Subject: [TML] TL Robots and the universality of greed
In-Reply-To: <3D0937BF.7407.9347DD@localhost>
Message-ID: <20614.090114.9t7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 13 Jun 2002, at 13:14, Richard Huxton wrote:
>
>> > Throwing a grenade: I'd just like to say that my opinion on the economic
>> > model of the Federation in Star Trek is that it doesn't represent a
>> touchy > feely socialistic society, but rather an ultra capitalistic
>> society where > all humans are so wealthy that they just don't bother
>> keeping track of the > small stuff any more.  Any purchase smaller than a
>> starship or planet is > just chump change. I don't expect Bill Gates
>> balances his checkbook either. 
>
>> Star Trek's economics make CT's look like nirvana.
>
> I'd say that the ST economy is supposed to be a nanotech economy (ie 
> not based on shortage). The combination of replicator technology and the 
> staggering amount of energy available to the individual means that anything 
> you want, you can have. In this economy its only things such as Van 
> Gough's Sunflowers, Shakespears original manuscript for MacBeth, a 
> baseball handled by somebody famous I forget, your childs first tooth 
> actually have "value".

*New* designs, etc also have value. So do "unique" things. Which is
folks would still pay for non-replicated food, and the like. It won't
always be the *same*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 10:08:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 09:08:48 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
In-Reply-To: <m3660m4rgm.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20614.090710.7F8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
>>
>> How many tramp freighter captains have ever bought their vessels
>> new?
>
> Do tramp freighters even exist nowadays?

Yep. They just don't do a lot of stops in the US or other places that
are equipped for containerized cargo. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 10:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 09:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <3D0948E7.959AD6B1@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1024071902.524.ajackson@ping>

David Shayne writes:

> So let me get this straight. Real world examples and specific examples
> from game books are somehow less valid than your nebulous assertion
> that economic growth is too slow?

Economic growth in the 3I _is_ clearly ridiculously slow (along with TL growth
and everything else).

> Why not take a step back and think
> about the possibility that the economy of the 3rd I might not be as
> stagnant as you assume.

Because if it wasn't stagnant, the 3I would be filled with 11,000 worlds with a
minimum TL of C and a minimum population of 100,000,000.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 11:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Jun 14 10:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Might be a bit large, but...
Message-ID: <200206141716.ILI00168@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 11:20:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 10:20:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEDBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <20020614152605.3697a494.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3D0A256F.6070206@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jens Rydholm wrote:

 > Why don't the cultures in Traveller (except the K'Kree) use drastic
 > measures more often? What kind of noblesse oblige binds the Third
 > Imperium not to destroy a world that has gone completely xenophobic,
 > lining up automated nuclear weapons as system defences?
 >
 > Sure, they could always ignore such a system, but not it it's located
 > on a critical branch of a main. What would the Imperium do in such a
 > case?

You don't need the mainworld to own a system. You can succesfully route 
through such a system, so long as it has a Gas Giant for re-fuelling.

Station a large naval presence in the system and the xenophobes aren't 
getting off their planet to bother you either. Not when the IN can just 
keep ratcheting up their presence, until they're prtty much 
shoulder-to-shoulder above your mainworld.

Then they drop rocks on you.

Also, the Imperium *has* resorted to such tactics...witness the original 
capital of Illiesh...


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEPEEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3D0A2866.1030807@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Terry Carlino wrote:
>>The Imperium is a huge and wondrous place...why are all the ships so
>>damned *boring*??!!!"
> 
> 
> Because you aren't using Robert Prior's wonderfully designed 101 Starships
> from the folks at BITS?

Not for long....heh heh heh.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 11:38:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sparky)
Date: Fri Jun 14 10:38:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...to Scientific Advances
References: <20613.014642.3M9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020613185325.009eeec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <00ba01c213ca$13342060$b50fa118@upstairs>

At least I now have independent confirmation. ;)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Berry" <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> It's a plot device.  Nothing more. I don;t thing they spent more than one
> minute thinking about any of the "science" that show.  (ST:TNG was even
> worse about this.)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 11:41:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 10:41:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #619 - 23 msgs
References: <OFD3B846A1.CCCD2FAD-ONCA256BD8.000C9473@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3D0A2A3E.4080400@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> Dear Folks -
> 
> Bruce opined:
> 
>>The Imperium is a huge and wondrous place...why are all the ships so 
>>damned *boring*??!!!
> 
> 
> Bruce is allowed to whinge. He came up with the Orrimot, after all.

To be truthful, I did not come up with the original ship design, Alvin 
Plummer did

http://oscar.pharmacy.arizona.edu/Orrimot.html

He also came up with the magnificent Majesta class megamerchant:

http://oscar.pharmacy.arizona.edu/Majesta.html

I merely took the ball and ran with it...

http://oscar.pharmacy.arizona.edu/images/TheTenderCover.gif

http://oscar.pharmacy.arizona.edu/TheTender.html

My contribution, so far, is the YugoBox class of merchant ships (alss 
yes it is another boring 200 ton design, but that was because QSDS only 
cam in nice round hull sizes.)

http://oscar.pharmacy.arizona.edu/deckplans.html

At home, somewhere I have plans for a YugoBus passenger ship, the so 
called 'Greyhound of the Spacelanes'.

All YugoShips can pay their own way...




-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 11:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Jun 14 10:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEDECEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Clint Rynners" <crynners@afr.ko.com>
>
>"That wasn't Cicero - Carthage was already gone by his time (in fact
>there'd already been at least one attempt to re-build by then)."
>
>It was Cato the Elder. And considering that Hannibal had spent the previous

You're quite right -- but since turning 40, I've come to accept confusing
the names of my cousins, let alone Roman orators.

>Are the military leaders of the Third Imperium promoted on the basis of
>merit or political influence?

Yes.

>I suspect the former on the borders and the latter at the Core.

I'm not sure it's very clear.  To paraphrase John Prine, political influence
will get you through times of no merit better than merit will get you
through times of no political influence.  But then political influence can
be at least partially derived from merit.

>How big a role does Psionics play in the Zhodani war machine, given that
its leadership are all adepts (general staff, not
>teleporting commandos).

Well, it's big.  It's a good thing for the Consulate that it's not a
Stalinistic dictatorship, or the Darth Vader "you have failed me" thing
would be a regular occurrence.

How much does the Imperium use people with psionics for covert operations
against the Zhodani?  I expect that official and actual policy don't match
at all here.

>it became standard practice for our group to string up a
[deletion]
>Never worked.

If your standard practice never works, maybe you should change the practice.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 12:03:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri Jun 14 11:03:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEDECEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20020614180251.D36F7279E5@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/13/02 at 10:46 PM,  "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
said:

>How much does the Imperium use people with psionics for covert
>operations against the Zhodani?  I expect that official and actual
>policy don't match at all here.

I was reading through some of the very old CT adventures the other day
and something how psionics was described struck me. I think there is
significant wiggle room in there for there being "legal" psionics and
"illegal" psionics in, even, the OTU.  

Legal psionics might be controlled, regulated and generally in
Imperial Services. Illegal would be private, uncontrolled and
unregulated. So, it's possible that there is still plenty of psionics
going on in the Navy, Army, Marines and Scouts, but when these "legal"
psions "retire" and get mustered out they enter the civilian
population they *now* must refrain from using their psionic
abilities...yeah right!...or at least use them secretly.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 12:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Jun 14 11:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Zho's in combat
In-Reply-To: <00ba01c213ca$13342060$b50fa118@upstairs>
Message-ID: <3D09EB94.17842.464886@localhost>

Someone was talking about Zho in combat but I deleted that email. 
Anyways on Free Lance Traveller there is a great story about this.
Check out 
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/stories/hostilestars/index
.html

The story is written by Fred Ramen and is called

Raconteur's Rest

Check it out

Tim Reynolds

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 12:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Jun 14 11:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Another boring ship
Message-ID: <200206141825.ILL01254@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Hopefully not.  I should have called this one the Mixmaster.

The Chukkar is a slow, yet flexible and inexpensive merchant 
ship.  Depending on options, it can be had for as little as 
37 Mcr, or as much as 48 Mcr.  It takes advantage of the 
standard 30-ton module for the Modular Cutter (and all of 
those variants).  Because of its versatility, and modular 
construction, it passes readily from owner to owner, while 
being used for virtually any purpose from cargo transport, 
passenger transport, exploration, lab research, anti-piracy 
(if equipped with fighters!), commando (add a fighter, and 
some troop modules), or luxury use.  The modest engineering 
plant is designed for low stress, long life operation, with a 
minimum of maintenance.  As an example of how inexpensive the 
operation might be:
-	the mainteance cost for a standard Chukkar with 
cutter is 48,000 cr per year.
-	the payments are 200,000cr/month
-       the crew size is very small

The Chukkar is a dispersed structure ship.  The ship has a 
rather modest 1-G performance, and a Jump-1 capacity.  The 
crew consists of a Pilot, an Engineer, and traditionally, a 
Medic.  The crew/bridge/computer module is a small box at the 
bow end of the ship's frame, and the ship's powerplant, 
maneuver drive, and jump drive are located in a box at the 
aft end.  The ship's computer is a Model 1bis.  The ship 
carries internal fuel for a Jump-1 without any additional 
fuel modules, and 28 days of powerplant fuel.  There is a 
refiner on board, and the cutter may be used to procure fuel 
in wilderness refuelling, or unrefined fuel may be purchased 
and used without problems.

The crew area also includes 4 staterooms that may be used for 
additional crew, or for Middle Passage passengers.  The crew 
area also includes 4 low berths.  If people double up (the 
crew is already doubled up), you could add eight additional 
crew.

There are no weapon hardpoints - but keep in mind that the 
ship may carry armed craft, such as fighters.

The standard Chukkar comes with 1 Modular Cutter, a 30-ton 
passenger container, and two 30-ton cargo containers, one of 
which is carried inside the Modular Cutter.  There are 
several other module options:

20-ton Demountable Fuel Tank
	This is not a drop tank.  It provides the ship with 
an additional Jump-1 worth of fuel.

30-ton Module
	In addition to every module variant for the Modular 
Cutter, there are:
	30-ton Cargo Module
	30-ton Passenger Module (7 Middle Passengers, 2 
Emergency Low Berths)
	30-ton Low Berth Module (30 Low Berths)
	30-ton Luxury Module (3 High Passage, 1 Steward in 
half stateroom, 4 Low Berths)

In an emergency, any or all of the modules may be 
jettisoned.  If a passenger module is jettisoned, the 
occupants must take to the low berths.
	
You can mix and match these combinations.  Keep in mind the 
following:

A Modular Cutter is 50 tons, and may contain a 30-ton module 
only.  This 30-ton module does not count against the ship's 
tonnage.
There are 30-ton modules, and 20-ton fuel modules.
Each 20-ton fuel module extends the ship's range by 1 parsec.
The total of cutter and/or modules must add up to less than 
120 tons.

Technically, if you add six 20-ton fuel pods, the ship can 
travel six parsecs (the seventh 20 tons of fuel needs to be 
used for powerplant operation).  It will take six Jump-1, but 
you'll get there.

Combinations:

2x30-ton cargo containers
1 Modular Cutter with 1x30-ton cargo container
(total 90 tons cargo, total 1 parsec range)

4x30-ton cargo containers (no modular cutter)
(120 tons cargo, 1 parsec range)

3 x 20-ton fuel pods
1 Modular Cutter with 1x30-ton cargo container
(total 30 tons cargo, total 4 parsec range)

2 x 20-ton fuel pod
1 x 30-ton cargo pod
1 Modular Cutter with 1 x 30-ton cargo container
(total 60 tons cargo, total 3 parsec range)

________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 12:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Huxton)
Date: Fri Jun 14 11:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1024071902.524.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1024071902.524.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <200206141820.17353.red@archonet.com>

On Friday 14 Jun 2002 5:25 pm, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> David Shayne writes:
> > So let me get this straight. Real world examples and specific example=
s
> > from game books are somehow less valid than your nebulous assertion
> > that economic growth is too slow?
>
> Economic growth in the 3I _is_ clearly ridiculously slow (along with TL
> growth and everything else).

Economic growth in the 3I is *glacial*. Because, in an empire the main th=
ing=20
you want is *stability*. Managing change takes a lot of effort. Managing=20
change across 1000+ systems with several months communications lag is goi=
ng=20
to be a nightmare. The simplest tool you have is consistency - standard=20
designs, standard prices, known power relationships and structures.

> > Why not take a step back and think
> > about the possibility that the economy of the 3rd I might not be as
> > stagnant as you assume.
>
> Because if it wasn't stagnant, the 3I would be filled with 11,000 world=
s
> with a minimum TL of C and a minimum population of 100,000,000.

Which sounds desirable, because you've then got the industrial base to kn=
ock=20
over the Zhodani quite comfortably. BUT - that's not going to do you any =
good=20
if chunks of the 3I start getting smart ideas about doing their own thing=
=2E

When a system is brought into the Imperium, you're going to deal with the=
=20
current bosses and so long as they don't cause you any trouble you'll do =
all=20
you can to keep them there. Change only risks losing your influence, wher=
eas=20
reinforcing the existing power structures helps to make them dependant on=
=20
you. For examples, pick the foreign-policy of the USA today, Britain 100=20
years ago or the Catholic church of the Middle Ages (any imperial force i=
f=20
you ignore the technological change).

Of course, this will tend to exascerbate differences in wealth and power,=
=20
which makes change even more dangerous because of resentment leading to=20
radicalism. This stasis leads to increasingly isolated and "in-bred" rule=
rs=20
(France 1800, USSR 1950+, USA 2020?) who don't really connect with the ru=
led=20
any more.

Most of your hi-tech research is being carried out by Imperial labs or=20
mega-corps, so you have control over direction and exposure of the result=
s.=20
If some uncontrolled source develops destabilising technology you either=20
co-opt those involved or squash them.

ObTrav: low-pop, high-tech, socially coherent planet has a research lab w=
hich=20
develops a radical new technology (FTL comms, alternative to Jump, new po=
wer=20
source etc). You get the Zhodani, Imp Navy, Scouts, Emperor's personal ag=
ents=20
and mega-corp fixers all after it. Most of them would rather destroy it t=
han=20
let the others get it. The players are of course stuck in the middle=20
protecting a handful of scientists.

- Richard Huxton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 12:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Fri Jun 14 11:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <20613.151349.9K9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Jun 13, 2002 03:13:49 PM
Message-ID: <200206141746.g5EHkbe01540@localhost.uia.net>

> > I wrote a small basic/dos program which does these calcs
> > http://www.elektrasystems.net/~jimv/stl1.zip
> 
> You *do* use the proper formulas for *accelerated* frames don't you?
> the ones that use the hyperbolic functions rather than the simple
> square/squares root or arcsin/cos formulas? 

Yeah, you and some other people from one of the physics newsgroups
helped out in this regard. In any case, the code is also available
in the download, so you can check it out even if you can't run the
executable from your system.
 
> > In the Harrison Chapters (a somewhat travelleresque story I
> > wrote years ago, http://www.elektrasystems.net/~jimv/har.htm),
> > I ran up against this same problem and decided to use "centims"
> > (or "cents") as the basic unit of local time, each being 1/100 of
> > a sol (a local day). So on a world with a 20 hour sol, 1 cent =
> > 12 minutes, 1 mil = 72 seconds, and 1 decimil = 7.2 seconds. It's
> > pretty easy to keep going with this.
> 
> 100 is a *lousy* choice of divisor for a sol. You can't divide the day
> into 3 shifts evenly, for example. 

Good point. I was thinking about this as well, but then it
occured to me that perhaps 4 shifts are common in the future.
In any case, because we're talking about local/planetary
time-keeping systems, there will probably be no single method
for dealing with this problem. Every world may have their own
completely different system.

> There's a reason why we don't have "the day starts at sunrise" anymore.
> 
> Mean surise varies from *actual* sunrise by quite about, even with
> earth's modest axial tilt. Noon varies only a little. As does
> "midnight" (though midnight is harder to check). 
> 
> Here's an example, for Portland, Oregon this year:
> 
>           date   sunrise  noon   sunset
>           -----  -------  -----  ------
> equinox    3/20   6:14    12:18  18:23
> solstice   6/21   4:22    12:13  20:03  
> equinox    9/22   5:58    12:03  18:08
> solstice  12/21   7:48    12:09  16:30
>
> The time of sunrise varies by over 3 hours. The time of noon (transit)
> varies by 15 minutes. 

Very interesting. I had no idea that this was the case.
Our use of midnight makes a lot more sense to me now.

> Actually, any world where you can live on the surface *will* have time
> zones. Being more or less synched with the sun is important. And I
> don't see steps biggr than an "hour" or two being likely. 
> 
> It's too damned *useful* to know how light it is (give or take) by
> looking at a clock.

I think that people would still know that given that they don't
travel too much. I mean, if the sun rose at 1400 and set at 0200,
I'd probably get used to it, and I'd set my schedule by it. Lunch might
be at 2000, dinner at 0200, and that forbidden midnight snack at 0800.
I'd get used to it. The main trouble would be while visiting relatives
on the other side of the planet, I'd have to establish a new schedule,
and the clocks would continually remind me that I was off my normal
schedule. I guess that in a hi-tech world, people might be traveling
quite a bit around their homeworld, and so this might be reason enough
to encourage the use of time-zones.

Good points well-taken... -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 13:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Fri Jun 14 12:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage TIMS SHIP
References: <20020614015407.C8F3627CA1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00bb01c213d9$478c4040$c5aa5940@dixienet.com>

The ship can be found here :

http://www.little-possums.net/little-traveller/beauty-queen.html   AUTHOUR
Tim Little


ROFLMO   - gezzz dis flys still??? -- John Strain



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 13:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Jun 14 12:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Atmospheric Pressures and Charcters?
In-Reply-To: <20613.010807.4b5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20613.010807.4b5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b92ff843b150@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:08 AM -0800 6/13/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>With the higher pressures, you'll have trouble getting the gasses to
>cross the membrane in the desired direction. They tend to go from high
>concetration to low.

First off all, total pressure won't be a problem.  As to direction, 
that isn't that hard to handle.  We purify water these days by using 
pressure to force water against the osmotic pressure.  In this case 
you just need to let CO2 and O2 flow with the gradient....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 14:03:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 13:03:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <200206141820.17353.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1024084926.9067.ajackson@ping>

Richard Huxton writes:
> 
> Economic growth in the 3I is *glacial*. Because, in an empire the main
> thing  you want is *stability*. Managing change takes a lot of effort.
> Managing  change across 1000+ systems with several months communications lag
> is going  to be a nightmare. The simplest tool you have is consistency -
> standard  designs, standard prices, known power relationships and
> structures. 

However, given that the 3I has nothing resembling consistency in government or
technology, both of which are among the first things you'd expect to see
standardized by a strong central government, the evidence is that the 3I
_doesn't_ manage change to any significant degree.

> Which sounds desirable, because you've then got the industrial base to
> knock  over the Zhodani quite comfortably. BUT - that's not going to do
> you any good  if chunks of the 3I start getting smart ideas about doing
> their own thing. 

Actually, it would cut down on the problems.  Currently, you have these single
island worlds that are quite capable of building an SDB fleet that can hold off
most of a sector.  If you increase the average wealth of worlds, the single big
worlds are less of a problem.

> Most of your hi-tech research is being carried out by Imperial labs or 
> mega-corps, so you have control over direction and exposure of the results.

It is?  What makes you think this?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 14:05:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn wilson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 13:05:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Economic growth in the Imperium.
Message-ID: <F272fVwcdZ06YO4OPXo0000a506@hotmail.com>


>Economic growth in the 3I is *glacial*. Because, in an empire the main th=
>ing=20
>you want is *stability*. Managing change takes a lot of effort. Managing=20
>change across 1000+ systems with several months communications lag is goi=
>ng=20
>to be a nightmare. The simplest tool you have is consistency - standard=20
>designs, standard prices, known power relationships and structures.


I don't think the Imperium bothers 'managing' change.  I think they're 
realistic enough to know that over 11,000 worlds with 1 year travel times 
from the core to the rim, that would be flatly impossible.


I think change is slow in the Imperium because economic development is a 
saturation phenomenon and the Imperium is nearly saturated.

There are three basic components of total output:  labor, capital, and 
technology.  Since per capita output is what we want, labor divides out.

Economic development is mostly the story of accumulating capital stocks.  
Each period a fraction of your existing capital depreciates away and you 
save a part of your income to add 'new' capital, replacing it.  Each dollar 
of capital you add will depreciate at some fixed rate each period, say 5 
cents on each dollar annually.  The income added from additional capital 
falls as more and more capital is added.  Your early units of capital may 
add $1 for each dollar of capital, but later units will add 25 cents for 
each dollar, then 10 cents . . . When additional units of capital are only 
adding enough to your income to cover your additional depreciation, your 
capital stock stops growing (more capital than that would increase your 
depreciation expense more than it increased your income to pay for it and 
your net income would fall).

Technology likely works in a similar fashion.  The more advanced your 
knowledge, the more time and resources it takes to acquire it (not counting 
dropping obsolete or erroneous knowledge).  It takes longer to become a 
cutting edge physicist/mathematician/biologist/whatever who makes new 
contributions to the field than to become a mere technician who only applies 
what others have learned.  The more knowledge the longer it takes to 
acquire, and the less life expectancy you have to apply it.  The benefits 
drop from $1 per unit, to 25 cents, to ten cents to . . .

And since knowledgable people die, the depreciation on your knowledge stock 
continues at a fixed rate.  Whether they know a little or a lot, about 1% of 
your knowledgable people will die each year, and with them about 1% of ytour 
accumulated knowledge.

Exactly like capital, there will come a point where further increases in 
knowledge become extraordinarily difficult or impossible.  People will spend 
their entire lives just catching up to the state of the art, and then won't 
have enough time left to add significantly to it.

IMTU that's why development is so slow.  I figure the potential limits for 
human technology are about TTL 16, If humans were smarter or longer lived, 
the limits would be greater.

Grandfather's technology is incredibly advanced, but Grandfather has 
super-human intelligence and is immortal.

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 14:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Jun 14 13:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The Great TML Unboring Ship Rodeo
Message-ID: <F68quAE69ifZArOJ1qL000207d3@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Hey, it's started already, so get in while the getting is good!
     Let's see your ship!  Or your ships!  Any size, any shape, any type, 
just as long as they're not boring!
     What are the specifications?  NONE.  You read it right, NONE.  No 
tonnage limits, no missions, no TL ceilings or floors, no budgets, nothing 
at all, none of the picayune gearheaded stuff that turns so many of us off 
from the other design contests.  We want to see your ship, not snipe about 
the lack of real chrome fender dents, two-way sneeze-through windshield, or 
real factory air conditioned air from our fully air conditioned air factory.
     Book 2?  Fine!  HG2?  Yessir!  MT?  Okey-doke!  FF&S1&2?  Yup!  QSDS?  
Why not?  GURPS?  Go ahead!  Homebrew?  Fine by us!
     Our Olde Game is a GAME, that's right, A GAME!  Gee-Aye-Em-Eee.  All we 
want to know about your ship is how it's used.  How did the PCs get their 
hands on it?  Who built it?  Or rebuilt it?  What is it used for?  How old 
is it?  What's that queer foil wrapped package in the crew's freezer marked 
"meat cake"?  Who died in stateroom number four?  Where is the engineer's 
still hidden?  Please tell us those aren't corndogs!!???!
     Post away people.  Have fun.  Laugh.  Take a peek inside someone else's 
TU.
     I'll keep track of posted designs/descritions until 15 July 2002.  
After that, I'll post 'em in digestable chunks back on the TML.  Then we'll 
vote, squawk, and chortle until 31 July 2002.  We'll need some catagories 
too.  How about "Most Likely To Honeymoon In"?  Or "Never Mind, I'll Wait 
For The Next Ox-cart"?  Or "At Least We Have A Ship"?
     So enter early and enter often.  Who knows, you could be nominated to 
join the "Best of the TML"!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen, that old ship hand from the Rio Grande

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 14:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 13:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Economic growth in the Imperium.
In-Reply-To: <F272fVwcdZ06YO4OPXo0000a506@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1024085876.2754.ajackson@ping>

Shawn wilson writes:
> 
> I think change is slow in the Imperium because economic development is a 
> saturation phenomenon and the Imperium is nearly saturated.

Yeah, but the truth is, upgrading the minor worlds won't significantly alter
the degree of saturation; if you can have a TL F pop-A world, you can certainly
support having all the lower population worlds being TL C and above.  In any
case, this argues against wild exponential growth robotic factory scenarios.

> And since knowledgable people die, the depreciation on your knowledge stock
>  continues at a fixed rate.  Whether they know a little or a lot, about 1%
> of  your knowledgable people will die each year, and with them about 1% of
> ytour  accumulated knowledge.

Well, if nothing ever gets written down, sure.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 14:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Jun 14 13:19:07 2002
Subject: [TML] error report
Message-ID: <20020614.131919.-91005.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

My mail sent on the 10th and received on the 10th is now being looped
back to me as undeliverable.

Who takes care of this?

Enquiring Generals want to know.

-   ....   .   .-.   .       ..   ...       -.   ---   -.   .       .-.  
---   .-..   -.--       .-   ...       -   ....   .       .-..   ---  
.-.   -..   ---...       ..-.   ---   .-.       -   ....   .   .-.   .   
   ..   ...       -.   ---   -.   .       -...   .   ...   ..   -..   .  
    -   ....   .   .   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 14:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 13:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Economic growth in the Imperium.
References: <F272fVwcdZ06YO4OPXo0000a506@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D0A50CF.5080803@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Shawn wilson wrote:

> Technology likely works in a similar fashion.  The more advanced your 
> knowledge, the more time and resources it takes to acquire it (not 
> counting dropping obsolete or erroneous knowledge).  It takes longer to 
> become a cutting edge physicist/mathematician/biologist/whatever who 
> makes new contributions to the field than to become a mere technician 
> who only applies what others have learned.  The more knowledge the 
> longer it takes to acquire, and the less life expectancy you have to 
> apply it.

Not likely.

The path of a researcher's education hasn't changed significantly from 
1900 to 2000, depite the enormous accumulation of knowledge in all of 
those fields, and the entire point is to add to the sum of knowledge.

It's composed of roughly 2-6 years of post-graduate study under the 
tutelage of a professor. (on the basis a *mere* college graduate is 
likely to be a technician sort.)

It took Newton about as long to gain his formal education.

Cutting edge takes little longer than learning what others have learned, 
as it's *mostly* a function of working with the right people on the 
right projects...

Knowledge isn't some depreciable, interchangeable unit like capital goods.

You don't have to recapitulate all the research that's gone before you 
to add to it, that's what we have books for.

Knowledge *has* become vastly more specialized and the sum total of our 
knowledge has expanded greatly, but that's irrelevant to this point.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 14:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 13:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] error report
References: <20020614.131919.-91005.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3D0A5190.1060408@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> My mail sent on the 10th and received on the 10th is now being looped
> back to me as undeliverable.
> 
> Who takes care of this?

That would be Tod, and Tod, it's happening to me, too. They're old 
messages (that made it to the list) coming back with this error:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the Postfix program at host mail.travellercentral.com.

I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned
below could not be delivered to one or more destinations.

For further assistance, please send mail to <postmaster>

If you do so, please include this problem report. You can
delete your own text from the message returned below.

			The Postfix program

<tml@travellercentral.com>: mail forwarding loop for 
tml@travellercentral.com



Reporting-MTA: dns; mail.travellercentral.com
Arrival-Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:17:05 -0700 (PDT)

Final-Recipient: rfc822; tml@travellercentral.com
Action: failed
Status: 5.0.0
Diagnostic-Code: X-Postfix; mail forwarding loop for 
tml@travellercentral.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 14:32:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri Jun 14 13:32:05 2002
Subject: [TML] error report
In-Reply-To: <3D0A5190.1060408@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020614203107.022C127A16@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/14/02 at 01:26 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
>> My mail sent on the 10th and received on the 10th is now being looped
>> back to me as undeliverable.
>> 
>> Who takes care of this?

>That would be Tod, and Tod, it's happening to me, too. They're old 
>messages (that made it to the list) coming back with this error:

<snip>

Yeah, same here. Not all, just some.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 14:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Ayres)
Date: Fri Jun 14 13:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL
In-Reply-To: <20614.085146.2r6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020614205130.66054.qmail@web20801.mail.yahoo.com>

Guess this never made it last week...

> Which brings us back to the original question: What
> does TL mean in Traveller?

I always like to go back to the beginning on stuff
like this:  

Book 2 defines TL as: "The TL of a world determines
the quality and sophistication of the products of a
world.  It indicates what precise types of equipment
are available and common locally."

I see the key words here as: "products of a world",
and "types... available and common..."

I had an Indian Calculus teacher in college that said
that Calculus was not a science, but an art.  I get
the feeling that trying to crunch a system (or world)
tech level down to a single digit indicative of what
the common traveller would see is similar - it's an
art!  

What is most important to the traveller in something
that can be shown in a TL?  Medicine, equipment,
vehicles, weapons?  I can easily see where a planet's
population could be at drastically different levels of
TLs.

I've followed both the threads here and on JTAS with
interest.  FWIW, I've found the concept of a non-human
population for Knorbes or wherever the population and
tech levels, and/or atmospheres don't jive as one of
the more interesting explanations.  Perhaps there's a
previously un-published alien society that flourishes
in such environments (throughout the Imperium?).

Scott


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 15:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Jun 14 14:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Time Zones & Time
In-Reply-To: <200206141746.g5EHkbe01540@localhost.uia.net>
References: <200206141746.g5EHkbe01540@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <m3r8j9pn4k.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

A 24 hour day has some good advantages, not least that both day and
night are easily divisible into halves, thirds, fourths and sixths.  I
imagine that this would be retained.

What I can see going away would be absolute time and time zones.
Allow me to elaborate.  Time zones really don't make a lot of
sense--they are a mechanism to deal with the fact that different
localities have different noons and midnights.  They were precipitated
by railroad schedules and solidified by broadcast schedules.

Well, with computers and such there's no need anymore for Denver, Fort
Collins and Boulder to be on the same time, nor for Dallas, Tulsa and
Kansas City.  Esp. in the far future, I can see that all `broadcasts'
are on-demand anyway, whenever the individual wants to watch
something.  News is 24/7, not 2000 every night.  And a computer can
tell you what time it is in another city immediately--heck, it can
listen to your conversation and substitute the words.  And finally
noon really is when the sun is straight overhead.

That takes care of time zones.  What about absolute time?  Well,
scientific measurements are going to be in standard seconds no matter
what.  We've already determined that a major reason for local hours is
suitability for agriculture.  And solar time (12 hours of daylight, 12
of night year-round, with hours getting longer and shorter in
proportion to the season) has certain benefits for farming.  Since
time is no longer mandated across a huge region, and since it need not
be absolute (as it must be for science), there's really no reason
_not_ to revert solar time.  Plus it means one moves quickly in winter
and slowly in summer--five minutes is a short time in the winter, but
an eon in the summer.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Man, if nature abhors a vacuum, she must really have it in for your
brain.                                           --Douglas E. Berry

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 15:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Jun 14 14:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <20614.080434.7q2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20614.080434.7q2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <m3n0txpmyf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>    
> BTW, a US gallon is *exactly* 231 cubic inches. It's defined that way
> somewhere (One of my old CRC handbooks has that conversion listed with
> the mark indicating that it's a *defined* conversion).
> 
> It's an ugly conversion factor, but at least it's a relatively easy to
> remember one. (so a 3x7x11 box holds 1 gallon...)

256 would have been better.  Then a cup, which is 1/16 of a gallon,
would be exactly 16 cubic inches.  And the pound could be redefing
equivalently.

> Remember, property (in the US) is based on townships, sections and
> acres. *All* of which are based on the length of the mile!

The first two only matter in the new states...

> http:\\www.outfitters.com\genealogy\land\twprange.html

/, not \...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A PC without windows is like a chocolate cake without mustard.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 15:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Jun 14 14:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <20614.080434.7q2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <m3adpzxbox.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3D0B0A20.13791.2B06DC@localhost>

On 14 Jun 2002 at 8:04, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Do note that places like the UK get really puzzled by measurements like
> the cup. They don't measure ingredients for cooking by *volume*. They
> go by *weight*. Which leads to much puzzlement when confronted by a
> recipe from the US/Canada. 
> 
> And the cup is based on the quart, and is part of a series of
> measurements.
> 
>       1 bushel = 4 pecks
>         1 peck = 2 gallons
>       1 gallon = 2 pottles (obsolete)
>       1 pottle = 2 quarts
>        1 quart = 2 pint
>         1 pint = 2 cups
>          1 cup = 8 fluid ounces
>  1 fluid ounce = 2 tablespoons
>   1 tablespoon = 3 teaspoons

Something along these lines used to be used in countries that used the 
Imperial measures. I suspect that when the UK switched to metric they 
went to cooking by weight, as we (NZ) still use volume measure for 
cooking (though larger quantities of things like butter tend to be by 
weight). In fact we have a set of standard volumes for these things. 
Off hand I can only remember the 'metric' cup (250mL) and the teaspoon 
(5mL), but there's also the tablespoon, and a few others as well.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 15:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Jun 14 14:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Map Generation
In-Reply-To: <20614.085550.2h4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <3D09C55F.17932.4FB2BC@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D0B0B8D.28150.309953@localhost>

On 14 Jun 2002 at 8:55, Leonard Erickson wrote:
 
> Could you send me a table for Imperial liquid (and dry) measure,
> similar to the one I just posted for US?

Not handily, more's the pity. If noone else does by the time I next see 
my parents I'll try and find their sets of tables, etc., and copy them.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 15:54:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Jun 14 14:54:24 2002
Subject: [TML] why does travel cost so much?
Message-ID: <F215X0qKtJr5G9KO33D0001f54f@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "Why do I have to go through Cincinnati if I want to fly from
Washington, DC to Greensboro, NC?"


Mr. Kwon,

     As a business traveller, let me take a crack at this one.
     Think of it as "freight consolidation".  How many people want/need to 
fly between DC and Greensboro every single day?  If the flight leaves at 
0800 instead of 1600, would there be fewer passengers or more of them?  
Would a once a week flight be nearly full?  How two flights a week?
     By "collecting" and "storing" passengers at large hubs for several 
smaller destinations, you can ensure nearly full aircraft on each leg.  
Revenues can be estimated to nearly the last penny that way.  Equipment and 
expenses can be planned for equally precisely.

     "And why is the ticket cheaper than a direct flight?"

     Because the flight is regularly scheduled and known to generate a given 
amount of money by carrying a certain amount of passengers over a certain 
amount of time.  If you know, on average, that the flight will pull in X 
amount of passengers, you can peg the fares towards the low end because you 
can be sure of your ridership/revenue estimates.
     Conversely, if ridership flucuates wildly, full one day, empty the 
next, you peg the fares high to ensure you break even despite ridership 
levels.

     "And why are four out of five tickets for that route NOT direct?"

     Because four out of five planes do not fly the route direct.
     Deregulation meant that airlines were no longer required to service 
certain areas regardless of their ridership.  When an airline had to fly, 
indeed could only fly, between certain mandated cities, there were naturally 
more direct routes.  But fewer of those routes paid for themselves, so 
overall fares were higher.
     Now routes follow the bucks.  There are more New England to Florida 
flights in the winter than the summer.  There are more flights in and out of 
major business/industrial regions.  There are fewer flights in and out of 
low pop, resources only regions.  Add to this fact that these additional 
routes require additional airports and runways, which the US public is 
loathe to build(1), and the routes get even screwier.
     Take the current esoteric telecomms thread for example.  Could you 
imagine the routing nightmare if phone use increased by an order of 
magnitude, but the numer of lines and phones only doubled?

     "Maybe I shouldn't ask the Traveller universe of routes and
starports to make sense, since the RW is bizarre enough."

     The Real World routes follow the money and are constrained by physical 
limits, like the number of runways, and legal limits, like time restrictions 
for takeoffs and landings.
     The Traveller World follows the money too, but only to a certain 
extent.  There are also subsidized routes, like our old regulated air 
traffic system.  That plus the fact that most routes were actually generated 
randomly and not according to any "rational" rules, economic or otherwise.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

(1)  It used to be "NIMBY", Not In My Back Yard.  Now it's "BANANA",
Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anybody.  They scream for more sewage 
treatment plants to "Save The Bay", but no one wants one near them.  They 
want recycling centers to save the enviroment, but no one wants one near 
them.  More cops and firefighters, but no more stations.  More and tougher 
criminal sentences, but no more prisons.  More electricity, but no more 
powerplants.  More personal cars, but no more roads.  B-A-N-A-N-A.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 16:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Fri Jun 14 15:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Planetbusting (Was: Environment and Culture)
In-Reply-To: <20020614172008.2C6EB279DB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206142344560.1430-100000@ask.diku.dk>

John T. Kwon writes:

>There's an interesting presentation on the idea
>in Charles Pellegrino's "The Killing Star" where he posits
>the idea that if you have an opponent who has the capability
>to muster energies sufficient for interstellar flight, then
>those same energies are also a weapon - a weapon with rapid,
>genocidal, species-destroying consequences.  In a situation
>where you perceive that your opponent may employ those
>weapons in such a manner, you cannot afford to be "wrong" -
>that is, you can't act as though your opponent might resolve
>the conflict peacefully, because if you're wrong, you're gone.

That only applies if you can be sure of accounting for ALL his
interstellar vessels, because if you can't, the one thing that will
absolutely assure that one of those ships will destroy your world is to
destroy his world. It's known as 'Mutually Assured Destruction'.

Which IMO is why the governments of Charted Space in general refrain from
using planetbuster class weapons.

>The Imperium is of sufficient size to prevent species destruction by one
>or two wayward, violent systems. But a similarly sized entity, such as
>the Zhodani, could pose such a threat.

Not unless the Zhodani are willing to risk having their worlds treated the
same way.

>I am quite surprised that in the FFW, there wasn't a lot of planet-busting
>going on.

Where I have to apply a little willing suspension of disbelief is to
accept that terrorists don't go for the planetbusting more than they
apparently do. Note, btw. that there is an Amber Zone ('A Dagger at
Efate') where some terrorists try precisely that.




Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Fri Jun 14 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front Cover Rendering Machine
Message-ID: <F26tiCvbmDQ1Qe6nDAK000048a5@hotmail.com>

   Well, so far I've generated about a dozen *very* interesting LBBS so far. 
The thing's an absolute *hoot*, actually :)
  -Ken Murphy-



_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 16:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Jun 14 15:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front Cover Rendering Machine
In-Reply-To: <F26tiCvbmDQ1Qe6nDAK000048a5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206141507490.24141-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, Ken Murphy wrote:

>    Well, so far I've generated about a dozen *very* interesting LBBS so far. 

I had fun with the adventure numbers.  I've done adventures "42", "69" and
"93" (which only Craig and Doug will get).

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 16:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Jun 14 15:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] why does travel cost so much?
In-Reply-To: <20020614121307.4B451279F7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17Izam-0003m5-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

On 14 Jun 02, at 5:11, tml-request@travellercentral.com wrote:
"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> wrote:

> A "short hop" is a J-1 passage to the next world up the main. The
> problem with the "How much does it cost to travel" discussion is that
> when you limit yourself to single jumps (at J-1,2,3) when you're
> basically talking about local travel. A middle class worker might be
> able to save for years to take the trip, then if (s)he can get a month
> off, actually take the trip. But they'll only travel one jump.
> 
> Looking over the Solomani Rim (From Rim of Fire) I don't see many
> worlds worth visiting that are only 1 jump form each other. All this
> point me to the conclusion that most Travellers going more than 1 jump
> are either rich, travel for business (like the 19th and early 20th
> century traveling salesmen) or are emigrants going on a once in a
> lifetime trips.

I'd raise that limit a good bit above J-1.  The subsidized liner from 
CT does J-3 and the Long Liner from the Traveller Adventure is one 
of a number of J-4 liners mentioned in various CT and MT 
publications.  I'm guessing that most passenger ships run by the 
megacorps will be J-3 or J-4, which means that the average 
vacation could easily be a 3 or 4 parsec jump.  For most of the 
Solomani Rim, J-4 gives you a choice of between 8 and 12 worlds 
to visit.  OTOH, anyone travelling more than 4 parsecs from home 
is doing some serious traveling.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 16:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Fri Jun 14 15:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] why does travel cost so much?
In-Reply-To: <F215X0qKtJr5G9KO33D0001f54f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000201c213f3$5ce6b780$0b01a8c0@duck>

On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade
> From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>      "And why is the ticket cheaper than a direct flight?"
>
>      Because the flight is regularly scheduled and known to generate a
given
> amount of money by carrying a certain amount of passengers over a certain
> amount of time.  ...

You are confusing two issues.  An airline might not *offer* a
direct flight because of all the issues you raised in the rest
of your message (that I deleted).

However, airlines charge more for a direct flight because they
can.  It doesn't matter at all whether the direct flight is
cheaper or more expensive.  If a direct flight is offered it
will be more expensive.

The reason is because most people want a direct flight and are
willing to pay more for a direct flight.  This is especially
true of business travellers who (usually) don't care about the
cost (much, anyway) because it isn't their money.

BTW I am not trying to villify the airlines (though I do believe
they deserve any villification they get).  This is just plain
supply and demand.  The airlines just charge what the market
can handle.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 17:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Jun 14 16:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front Cover Rendering Machine
In-Reply-To: <20020614223507.D00AE27CF6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17J04p-0005uB-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:
  
> I had fun with the adventure numbers.  I've done adventures "42", "69"
> and "93" (which only Craig and Doug will get).

And me, I'm not in the OTO, but I know folks who are, and I've read 
Crowley.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 
 eclectic occultist

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 17:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 16:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Planetbusting (Was: Environment and Culture)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206142344560.1430-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3D0A7609.4060201@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Where I have to apply a little willing suspension of disbelief is to
> accept that terrorists don't go for the planetbusting more than they
> apparently do. 

well, actually, it's not all that hard to understand.

Terrorists, by and large (with notable exceptions of late) tend to do 
what they want for *political* reasons, to make the masses of people 
behave in a fashion beneficial to them, whether by instilling fear or 
provoking draconian measures by the government.

  They have to be careful to push just hard enough to achieve their 
aims, and not so hard that they turn everyone against them.

Employing WMD tends to blow right past fear into serious anger at the 
terrorists and their cause, hardening attitudes and resolve by all 
concerned.

Witness the IRA and the PLO...both have bombed their way to the 
negotiating table, with varied degrees of success, for purely political 
motives: seizing self-rule from occupying powers in both cases.

However, they've been generally careful to keep their atrocities at a 
tolerable level...killing dozens, not thousands.

This stings the other side, and keeps them afraid and unstable, but 
doesn't push them into an extirmination campaign because the damage 
doesn't reach that sort of level.

Terrorists like the people who carried out 9-11 have far murkier 
motives, not entirely or even mostly political. Based on their public 
statements, they're more apocalyptic fanatics who want to ignite a war 
between Islam and the West, on a 'Kill 'em all and let Allah sort 'em 
out' basis.

They have no real political aims; it's not clear that they want power, 
other than the power that comes from instilling fear.

Whilst I'm sure it's happened on occasion in the Imperium, it's not the 
norm for such activity to escalate to that point: It's hard to win 
political control of a planet you just smacked with an asteroid...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 17:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn wilson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 16:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Economic growth in the Imperium.
Message-ID: <F226CFvpV02m6DKdu3c00003b06@hotmail.com>

>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Economic growth in the Imperium.

> > I think change is slow in the Imperium because economic development is a
> > saturation phenomenon and the Imperium is nearly saturated.
>
>Yeah, but the truth is, upgrading the minor worlds won't significantly 
>alter
>the degree of saturation; if you can have a TL F pop-A world, you can 
>certainly
>support having all the lower population worlds being TL C and above.


You really can't 'upgrade' minor worlds.  Each world will have its own 
staedy state.  (corruption, crime, bureaucracy, social and cultural factors 
affect output and a planet's long run equilibrium)  You can accelerate a 
planet's growth towards its steady state, but you can't artificially raise 
it (though changing its culture can change it).  You can drop a trillion 
dollars worth of capital on Somalia, but it's just going to rot.

Less developed planets are either still approaching their steady state, or 
have social/cultural/criminal/bureaucratic factors preventing them from 
reaching their full potential.

Technologically, if they aren't in mainstream contact with the state of the 
art they're limited to what they can discover themselves.  We can all play 
roles in a TL-7/8 culture, but if we were dropped on a desert island our 
cultural tech level would drop precipitously.


In any
>case, this argues against wild exponential growth robotic factory 
>scenarios.


Exactly.



> > And since knowledgable people die, the depreciation on your knowledge 
>stock
> >  continues at a fixed rate.  Whether they know a little or a lot, about 
>1%
> > of  your knowledgable people will die each year, and with them about 1% 
>of
> > ytour  accumulated knowledge.
>
>Well, if nothing ever gets written down, sure.


It doesn't do any good if it only exists on a printed page.  Knowledge 
*must* be embodied in a person to have value.  The book with all the answers 
is useless without someone to read it and apply what they learn.




_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 17:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Jun 14 16:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] why does travel cost so much?
Message-ID: <F208I4bv9yBMz2vP1q80001f577@hotmail.com>

From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>

     "You are confusing two issues.  An airline might not *offer* a
direct flight because of all the issues you raised in the rest of your 
message (that I deleted)."


Mr. West,

     My post was insufficiently precise and rambling, the usual Whipsnadian 
effort I'm afraid.  The main thrust of my post was an attempt to explain why 
a "hub and spoke" system came about.  Mr. Kwon was musing as to why more 
direct DC to Greensboro flights didn't exist and why those fares were more 
costly.

     "However, airlines charge more for a direct flight because they
can.  It doesn't matter at all whether the direct flight is cheaper or more 
expensive.  If a direct flight is offered it will be more expensive."

     "The reason is because most people want a direct flight and are
willing to pay more for a direct flight."

     Yes.  It's the captive audience effect.  People will pay for the 
convienence a direct flight offers, but the number of direct flights between 
two given cities will never equal the number of "hub and spoke" style flight 
connections between them.
     As the number of people willing to pay for the convienence of a direct 
flight between two cities falls below a given amount, there will be no 
direct flights, regardless of how pricey the fares become.(Please note, this 
ignores hiring an aircraft for the trip.)
     Hub and spoke systems allow far more chances for connections to far 
more destinations.  The trips may be longer, but the fares will be cheaper 
and the flights more often.  By flying back and forth from small ridership 
areas to hubs, the airlines can ensure more passengers.  They are 
consolidating their passenger loads along known routes in order to recieve 
economies of scale.
     An airline like Southwest exploits its niche by flying a type of 
"highliner" service between satellite airfields in very large, metropolitian 
ridership areas.  Thus, Southwest flies into Providence, not Boston, Newark, 
not NYC, Ontario, not LAX, Love Field, not DFW, and so on.
     This is very much akin to GT:Far Trader's LASH freight system.  LASH 
freighters deliver containers to a system's jump limit, not to a system's 
starport.  Southwest delivers passengers to a satellite airfield, 
Providence, and not the congested metro-center airfield, Boston-Logan.
     IMTU, most passenger service (by volume) is handled like freight, 
because most passengers ARE freight; they've been put in low berths and are 
being shipped from slot shop to slot shop.
     A passenger travelling between Grote and Roup for instance, would 
travel "warm" along a spoke from Grote to the nearest "hub", let's say 
Lunion.  Then freeze out and travel from that "hub" (Lunion) to another 
"hub" (Regina).  Finally, she would travel "warm" along the last "spoke", 
Regina to Roup.  Travel along the spokes would be with independents, travel 
between hubs with a megacorp.
     Subsidized merchies IMTU always have a few dTons of "corpsicles" along 
with that coveted mail contract.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 17:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Jun 14 16:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Economic growth in the Imperium.
Message-ID: <F129QTnzHyHpC9vzAex00020980@hotmail.com>

From: "Shawn wilson" <lockean@hotmail.com>

     "You can accelerate a planet's growth towards its steady state, but you 
can't artificially raise it (though changing its culture can change it).  
You can drop a trillion dollars worth of capital on Somalia, but it's just 
going to rot."


Mr. Wilson,

     Well put, sir.  If only more people realized this, than all the 
monetary aid and personal effort put forth by both governments and NGOs 
alike would actually accomplish something.
     There was a recent article at JTAS that covered "bootstraps" very well. 
  In most cases, raising a planet's TL will involve changing a planet's 
culture.  And that is the hardest thing to change of all.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 17:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Fri Jun 14 16:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <20020612081003.95CFF27B92@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206150128050.1430-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Peter L.S. Trevor writes:

>Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>>The big problem with that explanation is that it doesn't really
>>explain anything. Specifically it doesn't explain what all those
>>transients are doing on Pixie. Also, just what makes the miners
>>residents and the rest transients? Do the miners constitute a
>>stable society that owns the system?
>
>I thought the transients were  skilled  workers  at  the  factory
>(probably on contracts from 6 months to 2 years at a time), naval
>staff at the IN base,  starport  personnel  (probably  most  also
>General Shipyards contractors), merchants passing  through,  etc.
>As to why General Shipyards located its facility  on  Pixie,  who
>knows?

Well, right there is the big problem I have with Pixie and similar
systems. To me "I can't come up with an explanation that my players would
accept as reasonable" is just a long-winded way of saying "it's broken"
(with the corrolary "and ought to be fixed").

>The miners, meanwhile,  emmigrated  indefinately  to  make  Pixie
>their permanent home.  Why, again who knows?  But they would have
>a society of sorts.

Even granted that 60 people were capable of forming a self-sustaining
society (which I'm not really willing to), what makes Pixie's neighboring
governments willing to accept them as a soveriegn people?

>>Of course, that interpretation makes the official population
>>figure absolutely useless for any calculations of trade volume,
>>system defense budget and the like.
>
>For medium  and  high  population  worlds  the  effect  would  be
>marginal, for low population worlds (like Pixie) then yes you are
>absolutely right.

Which is why I have few problems explaining the UWPs of most medium and
high population worlds.

>But given that there is a class A starport, a naval base, a major
>General Shipyards facility,  and  the  x-boat network passes through the
>system  then  basing  calculations  of trade volume and system defense
>budget on the official figure  of 90 inhabitants was always obveously
>inadequate.

My problem is that there is no plausible reason why Pixie should have a
Class A starport, a Naval base, a General Shipyards facility, and why the
X-boat network should go through it. And if it did have all those things,
the population figure ought to include the people who worked there. And if
it didn't include the people who worked there, it shouldn't include the 90
miners either.



Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 18:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri Jun 14 17:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Zho's in combat
In-Reply-To: <20020614190106.5040F27CD7@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020614190106.5040F27CD7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <jv0lgu42omiq0vmgfoff12rojvmbm7elaq@4ax.com>

On Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:00:04 -0700, timothyreynolds@earthlink.net wrote: 

>Someone was talking about Zho in combat but I deleted that email. 
>Anyways on Free Lance Traveller there is a great story about this.
>Check out 
>http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/stories/hostilestars/index.html

>The story is written by Fred Ramen and is called

>Raconteur's Rest

Ummm, no.  The story (novella) is called "The Hostile Stars" and appears in
the section of Freelance Traveller called "Raconteur's Rest".

You can read it a chapter per page on the website, or download it in PDF or
PalmDoc format.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 18:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 17:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <200206141746.g5EHkbe01540@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20614.133431.1F5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>> In the Harrison Chapters (a somewhat travelleresque story I
>>> wrote years ago, http://www.elektrasystems.net/~jimv/har.htm),
>>> I ran up against this same problem and decided to use "centims"
>>> (or "cents") as the basic unit of local time, each being 1/100 of
>>> a sol (a local day). So on a world with a 20 hour sol, 1 cent =
>>> 12 minutes, 1 mil = 72 seconds, and 1 decimil = 7.2 seconds. It's
>>> pretty easy to keep going with this.
>> 
>> 100 is a *lousy* choice of divisor for a sol. You can't divide the day
>> into 3 shifts evenly, for example. 
>
> Good point. I was thinking about this as well, but then it
> occured to me that perhaps 4 shifts are common in the future.

A lot depends on how long the sol is on the planet in question. if it's
30 hours, the number of shifts will be different if it is 12 hours.

> In any case, because we're talking about local/planetary
> time-keeping systems, there will probably be no single method
> for dealing with this problem. Every world may have their own
> completely different system.

True. But there will be similarities. I've done a little brainstorming
with regards to "guidelines" for determining how many periods to break
days of different lengths into.

>> Actually, any world where you can live on the surface *will* have time
>> zones. Being more or less synched with the sun is important. And I
>> don't see steps biggr than an "hour" or two being likely. 
>> 
>> It's too damned *useful* to know how light it is (give or take) by
>> looking at a clock.
>
> I think that people would still know that given that they don't
> travel too much. I mean, if the sun rose at 1400 and set at 0200,
> I'd probably get used to it, and I'd set my schedule by it. Lunch might
> be at 2000, dinner at 0200, and that forbidden midnight snack at 0800.
> I'd get used to it. The main trouble would be while visiting relatives
> on the other side of the planet, I'd have to establish a new schedule,
> and the clocks would continually remind me that I was off my normal
> schedule. I guess that in a hi-tech world, people might be traveling
> quite a bit around their homeworld, and so this might be reason enough
> to encourage the use of time-zones.

Also, it can help remind you that "Oh, it's the middle of the night in
Bjorksville" if you check the local time before calling.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 18:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 17:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <20020614103319.B32536@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20614.151400.6D7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> [I wrote:]
>> > Variation in proper time due to velocity is equally easy to work out:
>> > kinetic energy divided by mc^2.
>
>> And in any case, that doesn't give the right answer. You forgot to
>> take the square root (among other things).
>
> I was expecting this objection ;^>, but it is actually precisely
> correct, and equivalent to your formula.  The correct (relativistic)
> formula for kinetic energy is
>
> KE = (m c^2) (1 / sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) - 1), hence
> KE / (m c^2) = 1 / sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) - 1.

KE = .5 * m * v^2 (plus relativistic correction) 
You seem to have lost that ".5" somewhere.

> Using your formula, the ratio of local time to the moving body's
> proper time is 1 / sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2).  Subtracting one (thus giving
> just the *variation* between time scales) gives KE / mc^2.

Huh? That makes *no* sense.

If the time rate on the "stationary" body is one, the time rate on the
moving body is tau. *Not* 1/tau. 

And I have no idea what you mean by "variation" in the above.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 18:49:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 17:49:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <20020614101825.A32536@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20614.152122.7h9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Actually, any world where you can live on the surface *will* have time
>> zones. Being more or less synched with the sun is important. And I
>> don't see steps biggr than an "hour" or two being likely. 
>
> That'll be fun on planets where the local "day" is 296 hours long :)

Anyplace where the sol is shorter than (say) 8 hours or longer than
(say) 48 hours is going to use standard days for most stuff and only
use sols for the few things that depend on time of day. 

And BTW, if the sol is 296 hours long, living on the surface won't be
terrible practical!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 18:50:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 17:50:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...to Scientific Advances
In-Reply-To: <014601c21328$c1201500$b50fa118@upstairs>
Message-ID: <20614.152407.9f0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>> Remember, the bit with FTL being equivalent to time travel is due to
>> the way the space time co-ordinates to the departure point in *our*
>> space time is realted to the arrival point in our space time. If you
>> get there faster than light can cross the gap (in our space), then for
>> someone travelling in the right direction at the right speed you'll
>> arrive before you left.
>>
>> It's actually a matter of *geometry*.
>
> Leonard (or anyone,) can you give me a quick lesson on this sort of
> geometry? (Off list if need be.) I'm kind of a visual thinker, and I'd like
> to get a handle on it.

Visualization won't help much, as the geometery in question involves 4
dimensions...

The formula for the distance between two points in 3-D Euclidean space is:

d = SQRT( (x1-x2)^2 + (y1-y2)^2 + (z1-z2)^2)

This gives the same distance regardless of where the orign of your
co-ordinate system is location, or how the axes are oriented.

The *interval* between events in spacetime is similar:

i = SQRT( (x1-x2)^2 + (y1-y2)^2 + (z1-z2)^2 - (t1-t2)^2)

The interval between events is the same regardless of the co-ordinate
axes origin or orientation. Moving at high velocities relative to
someone rotates your cooridinate system... 

Anyway, if you work it all out, you can derive all of special
relativity from the formula for interval and the Lorentz-FitzGerald
equations (that's the stufff that give the way time slows, and length
in the direction of travel shortens). 

Anyway, the end result is that if event A is leaving Earth and Event B
is arriving at Alpha Centauri, then if the time difference in the two
events (measured on Earth or Alpha Centauri, take your pick) is less
than the 4.5 years it's take light to cross that distance, there will
be co-ordinate systems in which B occurs *before* A. 

What matters isn't *how* you got from A to B any more than the distance
between two points in space is affected by the path you took moving
between them. It's not "distance traveled" that causes the problem,
it's the abosulte* distance. 

> Relatedly, I've been wondering how subspace is supposed to work in
> Star Trek (of all things)

It works whatever way the scriptwriter wanted it to. There's no
consistency.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 18:51:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Jun 14 17:51:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Environment and Culture
In-Reply-To: <cc.cf42dc4.2a3aaca5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20614.154652.9j5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Doug Berry writes:
>
>>ObTrav: Hit your players with a flood basalt. If you want to know what
>>one 
>>looks like, take a look at eastern Washington state.  That is a single
>>flood basalt.
>>
>
> Or more precisely, a single source-zone that was slopping new layers
> over the old at a remarkable rate.
>
> What is more impressive to me, and more germane for a good
> environmental threat in-game, is the generally held opinion among
> rock-hounds that the steep-walled canyons that riddle eastern
> Washington state (including much of the Columbia River itself) were
> carved in *weeks* when one of the big glacial melt lakes popped...

I grew up in Spokane WA. The house sat on a sandbar leftover from those
floods. A *500 foot tall* sandbar. And if you count the upper "layers"
(the terrain is sort of like a stepped layer cake) it's more like 1000
feet.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 19:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Jun 14 18:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <165.ec21064.2a3bef22@aol.com>

>   Well, so far I've generated about a dozen *very* interesting LBBS so far. 

>The thing's an absolute *hoot*, actually :)

OK, a show of hands:

How many of you have generated a cover dealing with a subject Marc's 
licensing criteria would veto? 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 19:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Jun 14 18:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly question...
In-Reply-To: <20614.151400.6D7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020614103319.B32536@freeman.little-possums.net> <20614.151400.6D7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020615113309.A2885@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> KE = .5 * m * v^2 (plus relativistic correction) 
> You seem to have lost that ".5" somewhere.

Nope.  KE = .5 * m * v^2 is only a slow-speed approximation to the
relativistic formula, which I gave exactly.  If you plug small
velocities into that correct formula
  KE = m c^2 (1 / sqrt(1 - v^2 / c^2) - 1),
you'll see that the answers are very close to 0.5 m v^2.

This can be demonstrated slightly more formally:

KE = m c^2 (1 / sqrt(1 - v^2 / c^2) - 1)
   = m c^2 (1 / (1 - v^2 / 2 c^2) - 1) + O(v^4)
   = m c^2 ((1 + v^2 / 2 c^2) - 1) + O(v^4)
   = m c^2 (v^2 / 2 c^2) + O(v^4)
   = 0.5 m v^2 + O(v^4).
For small v, the O(v^4) term becomes negligible, and you recover the
Newtonian approximation.  There is no factor of (1/2) in the correct
formula.


> If the time rate on the "stationary" body is one, the time rate on the
> moving body is tau. *Not* 1/tau. 

Set the time rate on the *moving* body to 1.  i.e. its proper time,
Minkowski interval, or whatever else you want to call it.  Then the
time as measured in the reference frame is 1/tau.


> And I have no idea what you mean by "variation" in the above.

That's OK, I only intended it to be a throwaway line pointing out a
neat relationship, not the drawn-out explanation it has become.  It is
the difference in measured times divided by the proper time.  As in,
time passes exactly 10% faster in the reference frame than it does on
a body with KE = 10% of rest energy.

This holds for all velocities, e.g. at 0.2c, each second of time on
the moving body corresponds to 1.02062 seconds of reference time.  To
put it in other words, time passes 2.062% faster in the reference
frame.  Not coincidentally, the kinetic energy of such a body is
2.062% of its rest energy.  The two quantities are governed by the
same relation.

In fact, if you recast relativistic dynamics in Lagrangian terms, the
relationship is seen to be more than just mathematical happenstance.
The same relationship applies for static metrics in general
relativity, where the stationary time rate difference is identical to
the difference in gravitational potential energy for exactly the same
reasons.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 20:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Jun 14 19:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Great TML Unboring Ship Rodeo
Message-ID: <3D0AA0BB.FFC91ACD@mail.cswnet.com>

Larsen Whipsnade, provisional traffic control operator, writes:
>I'll keep track of posted designs/descritions until 15 July 2002.  
>After that, I'll post 'em in digestable chunks back on the TML.  Then >we'll vote, squawk, and chortle until 31 July 2002.

When do we get the 2nd annual TML NPC contest started?

Presumably sometime after 31 July 2002. Hopefully before the end of year
holidays [?] What do you think...?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 21:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Jun 14 20:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Great TML Unboring Ship Rodeo
Message-ID: <F252iR9Odutox7nyeKz00004066@hotmail.com>

From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>

     "When do we get the 2nd annual TML NPC contest started?"

     "Presumably sometime after 31 July 2002. Hopefully before the end of 
year holidays [?] What do you think...?"


Sir,

     Jeepers, I haven't the foggiest!  Sometime early in the 4th quarter 
maybe?
     Web based contests are really tough.  The Adventure contests at JTAS 
have withered away, THUDD is gone, ISSDEC is on life support.  It's hard 
getting folks motivated for only posted paeans.
     The NPC Contest had a nice lead, the Brawl at the Haul.  Folks wanted 
to show off their creations.  Now we've got grumbles about boring ships, so 
I figured the Rodeo would be a good idea.  It might tube, it might fly.  Who 
knows?
     Let's wait and see what sort of threads are on the TML in the fall.  
T20 will be out.  SJ Games has a few books planned, most notably Nobles.  
Maybe the new system, T20, and the info on Nobles will have folks rolling up 
new PCs and NPCs, so we could do it then.
     I'm guessing that having a month to post designs will give folks time 
to dust off some special ship from an old campaign or adventure.  It could 
work or it could flop.  Trying to lock a contest in every month, or every 
quarter, or even once a year is a crap shoot.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 21:01:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Jun 14 20:01:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage TIMS SHIP
In-Reply-To: <00bb01c213d9$478c4040$c5aa5940@dixienet.com>
References: <20020614015407.C8F3627CA1@mail.travellercentral.com> <00bb01c213d9$478c4040$c5aa5940@dixienet.com>
Message-ID: <20020615130043.D3171@freeman.little-possums.net>

John Strain wrote:
> ROFLMO   - gezzz dis flys still??? -- John Strain

:)

It's not quite flying yet, but it will.  Honestly.  You believe me,
don't you?

It's about to take its first interstellar voyage after a major refit.
With its new state-of-the-art compartmentalisation, it won't sink, um,
lose all its air even if it hits a deep-space iceberg -- uh, comet.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 21:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Jun 14 20:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <165.ec21064.2a3bef22@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020614231521.0225b008@192.168.0.1>

At 09:15 PM 6/14/2002 -0400, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> >   Well, so far I've generated about a dozen *very* interesting LBBS so 
> far.
> >The thing's an absolute *hoot*, actually :)
>OK, a show of hands:
>How many of you have generated a cover dealing with a subject Marc's
>licensing criteria would veto?

<Virtual Snort followed by a raised hand>, several actually...


----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?
----------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 21:18:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Fri Jun 14 20:18:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <165.ec21064.2a3bef22@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAKEJEDEAA.redroach@pobox.com>

Not yet, but thanks for the idea ;)

TV

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com
Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 8:15 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator


>   Well, so far I've generated about a dozen *very* interesting LBBS so
far.

>The thing's an absolute *hoot*, actually :)

OK, a show of hands:

How many of you have generated a cover dealing with a subject Marc's
licensing criteria would veto?

LKW
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 21:19:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Jun 14 20:19:06 2002
Subject: [TML] The Great TML Unboring Ship Rodeo
In-Reply-To: <3D0AA0BB.FFC91ACD@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020614231632.0177c008@192.168.0.1>

At 09:04 PM 6/14/2002 -0500, Roseberry wrote:
>Larsen Whipsnade, provisional traffic control operator, writes:
> >I'll keep track of posted designs/descritions until 15 July 2002.
> >After that, I'll post 'em in digestable chunks back on the 
> TML.  Then >we'll vote, squawk, and chortle until 31 July 2002.
>When do we get the 2nd annual TML NPC contest started?
>Presumably sometime after 31 July 2002. Hopefully before the end of year
>holidays [?] What do you think...?

Sounds good to me.  I should generate some award certificates for the last 
winners.
Hmmm...anybody remember who got first and second?



----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Government does not cause affluence. Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 21:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark)
Date: Fri Jun 14 20:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <165.ec21064.2a3bef22@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000801c2141c$1335d4d0$2f7de40c@loki>

Loren asks, "OK, a show of hands: How many of you have generated a cover
dealing with a subject Marc's licensing criteria would veto?"


Huh? How many of us even began to worry 'bout such things as we happily
produced cover after cover of the things we know would sell to an
audience of maybe seven after our crew and a collector or two.

This little baby is pure, unadulterated visceral pleasure for this old
timer.* Let's see. Marc didn't go in for gratuitous sex and violence.
Oh! I have done that title yet.

-peace-
The views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you
expect?
<n2sami@attbi.com>
<http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller> 


*Hey. I know that statement is over the top but I had fun writing it.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 14 22:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J. Paul Sanders)
Date: Fri Jun 14 21:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <000801c2141c$1335d4d0$2f7de40c@loki>
References: <165.ec21064.2a3bef22@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020614214427.00ab25c0@mail.earthlink.net>

Is there any way this wonderful bit of programming could be packaged for 
download to run on my laptop (to keep myself amused during long flights, etc.)?

Paul


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 00:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Jun 14 23:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] My first ship contribution
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020614214427.00ab25c0@mail.earthlink.net>
References: <000801c2141c$1335d4d0$2f7de40c@loki>
 <165.ec21064.2a3bef22@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020615014247.009c7cb0@minn.net>

I'm not really a gearhead, please be gentle...

An excerpt from MERCHANTS AND PATROL SHIPS OF THE THIRD IMPERIUM:

COUGAR-class Armored Escort



EA-12  COUGAR   EA-4134442-300000-34002-0 MCr 347.942  400 tons
 	batteries bearing         22  1               Crew=12
 		batteries         22  1               TL=12
Passengers=0. Low=0. Cargo=6. Fuel=138. EP=16. Agility=1. Marines=0

Tonnage:  		400 (standard), 5600 cubic meters.
Crew:          	4 officers, 8 ratings
Performance:   	Jump 3, 4-G, Power Plant 4, 16 EP, Agility 1.
Electronics:   	Model/4 computer.
Hardpoints:    	4 hardpoints.
Armament: 		One twin fusion gun turret (factor 4x2), One triple missile
turret (factor 2), Two triple beam laser turrets (factor 3x2).
Defenses: 		Armored hull (factor 3)
Craft:         	30-ton ship's boat, Air/Raft.
Fuel:          	138 tons, on board scoops and purification plant.
Cost:          	MCr 348.542 standard, MCr 278.954 in quantity.
Const. Time:   	16 months individually, 11 months in quantity
Comments: 		This design dates from the first decade of the Imperium and was
originally intended to be a more combat-survivable supplement to the type-T
patrol cruiser. Each of the fusion guns in the two-ton double turret are
fired separately by the Chief Gunner and thus are each counted as a
separate battery. The EA-12 is fitted with twelve staterooms and may carry
twelve additional personnel (marines, naval boarding parties, prize crews,
and SURFER teams) in double occupancy, although standard practice usually
limits additional personnel to eight. 
	EA-12's continue to serve in backwater areas and client states of the
Imperium

Escort Boat 

EB-12  PUTTI-TAT   EB-0106611-300000-20000-0 MCr 34.12 30 tons TL=12
Crew=1. Passengers=8.Emergency Low Berths=5. Cargo=5.3. Fuel=1.8. Agility=2. 

Tonnage:  		30 (standard), 420 cubic meters.
Crew:          	Pilot
Performance:   	6-G, Power Plant 6, 1.8 EP, Agility 2.
Electronics:   	Model/2 computer rated as Model/1.
Armament: 		Beam laser (factor 1).
Defenses: 		Armored hull (factor 3)
Fuel:          	1.8 tons, on board scoops.
Cost:          	MCr 34.12 standard, MCr 27.296 in quantity.
Const. Time:   	24 weeks individually, 19 weeks and 2 days in quantity
Comments: 		This design is dimensionally identical with the Imperial
standard ship's boat and was the result of a very strong suggestion on the
part of Emperor Cleon II. The EB-12 was the preferred landing and support
craft used by eight-man SURFER (SURFace/Extravehicular/Reconnaissance)
teams of the early Imperial Navy. All SURFER units were officially
disbanded by Empress Arbellatra after the Imperial Civil War, although
there are persistant rumors that a SURFER type unit saw action on Algine
during the Fifth Frontier War.
	The origin of the class name is still the subject of heated debate.


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 01:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Sat Jun 15 00:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS OT way OT
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17C5F@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Hel TMLers. 

I am busy killing off my final assignment for the semester and thought I'd
waste valuable seconds. It's on the French defeat in Vietnam and whether
they ever had a chance to stay. I say no. And I don't want to hear any guff
about oui. I am talking to Leonard here, but since it does not involve
inorganic chemistry or quantum physics I am sure he won't be able to *bold*
me on this one (though I am sure he will consider this a laying of the glove
and will prob have a crack at it). 

Still there is one shining Ob Trav out of it. It's an interesting case study
of high tech vs low tech. Except of course trav tech, with yummy sensors and
grav craft, would probably negate most of the probs the French had. 

Lousy snail suckers. 

Just curious, did Trav ever make into French? Are there French players out
there? What about French Canadians (who I am led to understand sound like a
17th century Bordeaux peasant women with bad held colds to the rest of the
Franco world thanks to their isolated linguistic frenchying about town). 

Ah stuff it, I'll finish it tomorrow.

Night y'all. 

Viva la revolution!
 
Mikey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 02:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Jun 15 01:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Update
Message-ID: <003901c2144a$868cb920$639493c3@martinjd>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C21452.D522D9E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Traveller's Aide #2 is due out imminently, TA #3 is complete and has =
gone to layout.=20

TA#4 and #5 are well underway in the writing stage.

As to the rulebook, it's in final editing. 1/3 has gone for layout and =
the rest should join it in a few days.

------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C21452.D522D9E0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Traveller's Aide #2 is due out =
imminently, TA #3 is=20
complete and has gone to layout. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>TA#4 and #5 are well underway in the =
writing=20
stage.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>As to the rulebook, it's in final =
editing. 1/3 has=20
gone for layout and the rest should join it in a few=20
days.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C21452.D522D9E0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 03:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V.I. Parviainen)
Date: Sat Jun 15 02:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1024071902.524.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 09:25:02AM -0700
References: <3D0948E7.959AD6B1@ameritech.net> <ML-2.3.1024071902.524.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020615122011.A10380@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 09:25:02AM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > So let me get this straight. Real world examples and specific examples
> > from game books are somehow less valid than your nebulous assertion
> > that economic growth is too slow?
> Economic growth in the 3I _is_ clearly ridiculously slow (along with TL growth
> and everything else).
> 

Well, yes, economic growth is slow compared to our current situation.

Still, how long do you expect economy to grow? I think some day we won't
have 5% growth every year, not even 1%. 

In my humble opinion economists would do well if they looked up 
"negative feedback"... 

(This all in my opinion, with all the standard disclaimers. I won't 
fight over this, as my view is still very much undeveloped and exists
just in my random thoughts. Might expand it later..)

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 05:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Jun 15 04:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front Cover Rendering Machine
References: <20020614223507.D00AE27CF6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006b01c2145f$8a4f59e0$e1b18b90@computer>

I've been doing "For Munchkins Only" supplements for T4.

I haven't done any that would violate Marc's licensing criteria _yet_.

But that makes me wonder:  would "Gratuitous Sex and Violence" be a
supplement, an adventure, or a double adventure?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 06:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Jun 15 05:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front Cover Rendering Machine
In-Reply-To: <006b01c2145f$8a4f59e0$e1b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEHHHMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


I've been doing "For Munchkins Only" supplements for T4.

I haven't done any that would violate Marc's licensing criteria _yet_.

But that makes me wonder:  would "Gratuitous Sex and Violence" be a
supplement, an adventure, or a double adventure?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


Well, if you stick it in the TNE era with the reform Coalition, 
you could call it  "Gratuitous Saxon Violence"


Space Vikings dontchaknow  ^~^

jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 06:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Jun 15 05:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The other ship I want to enter in the non-boring
Message-ID: <200206151230.IMV01322@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Originally designed in 1095, and first laid down in 1098, the 
Valuta-class Assault Landing Ships are larger and faster than 
earlier LSAs, and represent a complete departure from the 
previous concept of Orbital Assault Landing Ships. The 
traditional two-piece bow doors, which have characterized LSA 
construction since the first vessels of this type were built, 
were replaced by a 40-ton bow ramp supported by two 
distinctive retractable derrick arms. The hull form necessary 
for the attainment of the hypersonic in-atmosphere speeds of 
contemporary assault squadrons would not permit two-piece 
doors. The conventional flat bottom hull was redesigned to a 
hypersonic lifting-body form enabling the ships to attain 
speeds in excess of Mach 25 in the upper atmosphere. This 
feature enables her to operate with modern high-speed assault 
landing forces. A stern gate also makes possible off-loading 
grav vehicles while in flight. 

The Assault Landing Ship (LSA) mission is to load and 
transport cargo, vehicles of all types, and troops to a 
combat area, and under modern considerations, to do this 
faster than ordinary grav vehicles can lower themselves to 
the planet's surface. These ships can launch grav vehicles 
via a stern gate as well as land vehicles, cargo, and 
personnel to an undeveloped location via a bow ramp. Troops 
and equipment can also be transported via grav vehicle. Two 
ten-ton articulated booms offload cargo to other ships or a 
pier. Valuta's lift capacity includes 30 grav vehicles and 
over 500 troops and their equipment. 

The ship has an additional cargo capacity of four 100-ton 
bays, with additional access to interior storage of 154 
tons.  If the ship is not carrying vehicles, it has a total 
cargo capacity of 854 displacement tons, most of which is 
readily handled by the ship's cargo booms.  The main vehicle 
deck floor is also optimized for moving cargo. The floor 
itself has built-in gravitic suspension tracks to automate 
movement of vehicles or containers. The vehicle bay covers 
19,000 Square Feet (1,767 Square Meters), and runs through 
the center of the ship, with exits at the front and rear 
ramps.  The ship itself is 160 meters in length.

Valuta-class ships saw heavy service in the Fifth Frontier 
War, and were especially valuable in the raid on Ninjar 
(Chronor 0608), and Calit (Vilis 0705).

In a Imperial proposal dated 1112-156, the Naval 
Administration proposed the transfer of 1500 Valuta-class 
assault landing ships to a number of entities. The design was 
considered obsolete, especially its power plant, and even 
though the design was only in service for less than 15 years, 
there were replacements rapidly coming on line that were 
funded by political fears raised by the recent Fifth Frontier 
War.

The 1500 LSAs in the proposal were among a total of 2000 that 
were commissioned. These ships constituted a significant part 
of the Imperial military shipping fleet as they transport 
grav vehicles, other heavy vehicles, engineering equipment, 
and supplies. The LSAs were relatively young in terms of 
their age and have impressive capabilities, as demonstrated 
by the interest of local navies and shipping lines in them. 
The administration's proposal to transfer 1500 LSAs to 
various entities would have reduced the amount of lift 
available to transport vehicles to only 73 percent of 
the "float capacity" goal in fiscal year 1113.

In response to the concern of various ducal authorities, the 
Navy proposed a new concept for maintaining the 
required "float capacity" of vehicle space in the military 
shipping fleet. In this concept LSAs were retained in a 
reserve status that would enable them to be available for 
active service in a few weeks. More LSAs were stored in a 
nesting arrangement in which several months could be required 
to make them available for an emergency. The Navy's plan for 
these LSAs was intended to maintain the necessary fleet lift 
capability. Fleet lift capacity is defined as the ability for 
such ground assault forces to keep up with the Imperial 
Navy's standard jump distance.  Subsequently the Imperial 
Navy authorized the five most pressing LSA group transfers 
for systems in the Spinward Marches. In these cases, non-
Imperial crews were already training in the Imperial Navy. 

The remaining ships of this class, 800 in all, are now 
assigned to the Imperial Naval Reserve Force Active as the 
only remaining ships of this class. These ships will serve 
with the Reserve until about 1125, when sufficient numbers of 
new LPA Hunter-class multi-purpose orbital assault ships will 
be available bringing the Active forces back up to its full 
lift capability. Imperial Naval Reserve Force Active (INRFA) 
ships are leased by the entity at a vastly reduced rate in 
exchange for accepting certain crew for reserve duty 
training.  One month out of the year, the ship is mobilized 
to training duty.   Under mobilization reservists assigned to 
a particular ship are activated, complementing the civilian 
and active duty personnel. At the conclusion of the ship's 
reserve obligations, most of which end in 1125, the ship is 
to be transferred permanently to the civilian entity. The 
Imperial Navy provides ship's maintenance until the reserve 
obligation expires.  This means that for a ship picked up in 
1113, there are significant cost savings on the ship's 
operations for the next twelve years.

Currently, these ships are most commonly found in frontier 
areas, where the ability for a ship to operate without a 
standard port facility (with cargo handling support), the 
ability to jump to remote locations, and use unrefined fuel 
are required capabilities.  Most are in the hands of 
merchants in these areas.  A few have been leased for 
mercenary unit service, and still more are in use for 
disaster/humanitarian aid transport.  

The ship also sees service as a large passenger vessel.  The 
accommodations during the lease period cannot be removed, so 
passengers have to make do with the marine accommodations.  
Usually, this results in a ticket price that is slightly less 
(10% on average) than the usual Middle Passage ticket.  On 
the other hand, many economy minded people who dislike the 
idea of Low Passage take advantage of this, especially 
business travelers.

The ship is not heavily armed, but its size and speed make it 
a challenge for non-Naval combatants such as pirate vessels.  
The ship is fitted with two 50-ton bay mounted fusion weapons 
for self-defense.  As per military requirements, the ship is 
fitted with a primary bridge and an auxiliary bridge, and a 
computer with fiber-optic backup.

The price for leasing the ship (and eventually owning the 
ship) is 3.49Mcr per month for 40 years.  This represents a 
66 percent discount on the price of the ship. Reserve 
obligations end in 1125.

The minimum civilian crew is: 11 Command, 23 Engineering, 5 
Gunnery, 11 Flight, and 18 Services (total crew: 68, roughly 
340,000cr/month, depending on individual salaries).  Life 
support consumable costs are 56,800 credits per trip.  
Currently, the maintenance costs for the ship run to 5 
million credits per month if the ship is not under Imperial 
maintenance.


Ship: Valuta
Class: Valuta
Type: Landing Ship, Assault
Architect: John Kwon
Tech Level: 14

USP
         LS-H1445D3-000000-09000-0 MCr 6,286.372 8.792 KTons
Bat Bear                    2      Crew: 568
Bat                         2      TL: 14

Cargo: 154.000 Fuel: 3,956.400 EP: 439.600 Agility: 4 
Marines: 500
Craft: 30 x 10T Armored Vehicle
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/4fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 62.864   Cost in Quantity: MCr 5,029.098

HULL
8,792.000 tons standard, 123,088.000 cubic meters, 
Needle/Wedge Configuration

CREW
14 Officers, 54 Ratings, 500 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-4, 4G Maneuver, Power plant-5, 439.600 EP, Agility 4

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/4fib Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/4fib Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
4 100-ton bays (empty), 2 50-ton bays (fusion weapons)

ARMAMENT
2 50-ton Fusion Gun Bays (Factor-9)

CRAFT
30 10.000 ton Armored Vehicles

FUEL
3,956.400 Tons Fuel (4 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
287.0 Staterooms, 154.000 Tons Cargo (plus 4 x 100-ton bays, 
plus vehicle deck of 300 tons, for a total of 854 tons)

COST
MCr 6,349.236 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 62.864), 
MCr 5,029.098 in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
158 Weeks Singly, 126 Weeks in Quantity
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 07:11:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Jun 15 06:11:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The other ship I want to enter in the non-boring
Message-ID: <200206151310.IMV04680@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Formerly, I posted an assault landing ship.

Please change all references to the year 1125 to the year 
1152.  Thank you.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 08:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Jun 15 07:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Great TML Unboring Ship Rodeo ENTRY
Message-ID: <3D0B4A54.A8FCA83E@mail.cswnet.com>

Well, here we go again...

Dan Roseberry's Entry#1

DBZ class Heavy Attack Scout

Ship Names: Goku, Gohan, Goten, Vegeta, etc.

Architect: Dan Roseberry

First produced at: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance's secret ship yard, located
somewhere near Ficant.

Design system: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance's HG2 program

USP
AS-11367S1-500000-20002-0 Mcr103.320 130dt Crew: 2 TL15
single battery
Fuel: 48.1dt EP: 9.1 Agility: 6 Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel
Purification.
Fuel consumption: 28 days maneuver plus one jump 3.
Drop Capsules: 2 [located on bridge-used as ejection seats]
Cargo: 1.7dt  [subdivided into 1.5dt for stores, .2dt ships locker]
Crew: 2 [pilot, gunner] Accomodations: 2 standard staterooms
Weapons: one Interstellarms M61 pulse laser,
two missile racks typically loaded with six SIM-15 nuclear attack
missiles.

Architects Fee: Mcr1.033 Cost in Quantity: Mcr82.656

Comments:
This ship is designed to find stuff and blow it up. It is designed to be
highly survivable, with its small size, high speed, hull armor and drop
capsule ejection seats. They are mostly used by the Imperial Navy,
although at least one wing [typically 50 ships] is thought to be used by
the IISS. The IISS ships do not carry nuclear ordnance, and instead
carry a wide variety of science probes. The IN crews are all volunteer,
and under go intense training and evaluation before being assigned to
these ships. They are trained to destroy their nuclear missile
stores[through self detonation] in the event of possible capture by an
enemy. 

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 08:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Jun 15 07:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <165.ec21064.2a3bef22@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020615065810.00a0c480@mindspring.com>

At 09:15 PM 6/14/02 -0400, you wrote:

>How many of you have generated a cover dealing with a subject Marc's
>licensing criteria would veto?

About half of mine would give him a heart attack.

Which makes me wonder about the possibility of doing Chez Beowulf.. The 
nookie cards might be a problem.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 08:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Jun 15 07:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS OT way OT
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17C5F@r1clex01.cbr.defe
 nce.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020615070056.009e3830@mindspring.com>

At 05:31 PM 6/15/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Lousy snail suckers.

The preferred term for the French on is.military.army is "Surrender Monkeys."

ObTrav: Nicknames for people from other Imperial member worlds.  People 
from Mora will be stuck with an unfortunate name, as would the Loonies from 
Lunion.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 08:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Jun 15 07:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Boring Ship Design, Revised
Message-ID: <200206151457.IMZ04736@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Some minor changes.

Originally designed in 1095, and first laid down in 1098, the 
Valuta-class Assault Landing Ships are larger and faster than 
earlier LSAs, and represent a complete departure from the 
previous concept of Orbital Assault Landing Ships. The 
traditional two-piece bow doors, which have characterized LSA 
construction since the first vessels of this type were built, 
were replaced by a 40-ton bow ramp supported by two 
distinctive retractable derrick arms. The hull form necessary 
for the attainment of the hypersonic in-atmosphere speeds of 
contemporary assault squadrons would not permit two-piece 
doors. The conventional flat bottom hull was redesigned to a 
hypersonic lifting-body form enabling the ships to attain 
speeds in excess of Mach 25 in the upper atmosphere. This 
feature enables her to operate with modern high-speed assault 
landing forces. A stern gate also makes possible off-loading 
grav vehicles while in flight. 
The Assault Landing Ship (LSA) mission is to load and 
transport cargo, vehicles of all types, and troops to a 
combat area, and under modern considerations, to do this 
faster than ordinary grav vehicles can lower themselves to 
the planet's surface. These ships can launch grav vehicles 
via a stern gate as well as land vehicles, cargo, and 
personnel to an undeveloped location via a bow ramp. Troops 
and equipment can also be transported via grav vehicle. Two 
ten-ton articulated booms offload cargo to other ships or a 
pier. Valuta's lift capacity includes 30 grav vehicles and 
over 500 troops and their equipment. 
The ship has an additional cargo capacity of four 100-ton 
bays, with additional access to interior storage of 154 
tons.  If the ship is not carrying vehicles, it has a total 
cargo capacity of 854 displacement tons, most of which is 
readily handled by the ship's cargo booms.  The main vehicle 
deck floor is also optimized for moving cargo. The floor 
itself has built-in gravitic suspension tracks to automate 
movement of vehicles or containers. The vehicle bay covers 
19,000 Square Feet (1,767 Square Meters), and runs through 
the center of the ship, with exits at the front and rear 
ramps.  The ship itself is 160 meters in length.
Valuta-class ships saw heavy service in the Fifth Frontier 
War, and were especially valuable in the raid on Ninjar 
(Chronor 0608), and Calit (Vilis 0705).
In a Imperial proposal dated 1112-156, the Naval 
Administration proposed the transfer of 1500 Valuta-class 
assault landing ships to a number of entities. The design was 
considered obsolete, especially its power plant, and even 
though the design was only in service for less than 15 years, 
there were replacements rapidly coming on line that were 
funded by political fears raised by the recent Fifth Frontier 
War.
The 1500 LSAs in the proposal were among a total of 2000 that 
were commissioned. These ships constituted a significant part 
of the Imperial military shipping fleet as they transport 
grav vehicles, other heavy vehicles, engineering equipment, 
and supplies. The LSAs were relatively young in terms of 
their age and have impressive capabilities, as demonstrated 
by the interest of local navies and shipping lines in them.  
The administration's proposal to transfer 1500 LSAs to 
various entities would have reduced the amount of lift 
available to transport vehicles to only 73 percent of 
the "float capacity" goal in fiscal year 1113.
In response to the concern of various ducal authorities, the 
Navy proposed a new concept for maintaining the 
required "float capacity" of vehicle space in the military 
shipping fleet. In this concept LSAs were retained in a 
reserve status that would enable them to be available for 
active service in a few weeks. More LSAs were stored in a 
nesting arrangement in which several months could be required 
to make them available for an emergency. The Navy's plan for 
these LSAs was intended to maintain the necessary fleet lift 
capability. Fleet lift capacity is defined as the ability for 
such ground assault forces to keep up with the Imperial 
Navy's standard jump distance.  Subsequently the Imperial 
Navy authorized the five most pressing LSA group transfers 
for systems in the Spinward Marches. In these cases, non-
Imperial crews were already training in the Imperial Navy. 
The remaining ships of this class, 800 in all, are now 
assigned to the Imperial Naval Reserve Force Active as the 
only remaining ships of this class. These ships will serve 
with the Reserve until about 1152, when sufficient numbers of 
new LPA Hunter-class multi-purpose orbital assault ships will 
be available bringing the Active forces back up to its full 
lift capability. Imperial Naval Reserve Force Active (INRFA) 
ships are leased by the entity at a vastly reduced rate in 
exchange for accepting certain crew for reserve duty 
training.  One month out of the year, the ship is mobilized 
to training duty.   Under mobilization reservists assigned to 
a particular ship are activated, complementing the civilian 
and active duty personnel. At the conclusion of the ship's 
reserve obligations, most of which end in 1152, the ship is 
to be transferred permanently to the civilian entity. The 
Imperial Navy provides ship's maintenance until the reserve 
obligation expires.  This means that for a ship picked up in 
1113, there are significant cost savings on the ship's 
operations for duration of the lease period.
Currently, these ships are most commonly found in frontier 
areas, where the ability for a ship to operate without a 
standard port facility (with cargo handling support), the 
ability to jump to remote locations, and use unrefined fuel 
are required capabilities.  Most are in the hands of 
merchants in these areas.  A few have been leased for 
mercenary unit service, and still more are in use for 
disaster/humanitarian aid transport.  
The ship also sees service as a large passenger vessel.  The 
accommodations during the lease period cannot be removed, so 
passengers have to make do with the marine accommodations.  
Usually, this results in a ticket price that is slightly less 
(10% on average) than the usual Middle Passage ticket.  On 
the other hand, many economy minded people who dislike the 
idea of Low Passage take advantage of this, especially 
business travelers.
The ship is not heavily armed, but its size and speed make it 
a challenge for non-Naval combatants such as pirate vessels.  
The ship is fitted with two 50-ton bay mounted fusion weapons 
for self-defense.  As per military requirements, the ship is 
fitted with a primary bridge and an auxiliary bridge, and a 
computer with fiber-optic backup.
The price for leasing the ship (and eventually owning the 
ship) is 3.49Mcr per month for 40 years.  This represents a 
66 percent discount on the price of the ship. Reserve 
obligations end in 1152.
The minimum civilian crew is: 11 Command, 23 Engineering, 5 
Gunnery, 11 Flight, and 18 Services (total crew: 68, roughly 
340,000cr/month, depending on individual salaries).  Life 
support consumable costs are 56,800 credits per trip.  
Currently, the maintenance costs for the ship run to 5 
million credits per month if the ship is not under Imperial 
maintenance.

Ship: Valuta
Class: Valuta
Type: Landing Ship, Assault
Architect: John Kwon
Tech Level: 14

USP
LS-H1445D3-000000-09000-0 MCr 6,286.372 8.792 KTons
Bat Bear                    2      Crew: 568
Bat                         2      TL: 14

Cargo: 154.000 Fuel: 3,956.400 EP: 439.600 Agility: 4 
Marines: 500
Craft: 30 x 10T Armored Vehicle
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/4fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 62.864   Cost in Quantity: MCr 5,029.098
HULL
8,792.000 tons standard, 123,088.000 cubic meters, 
Needle/Wedge Configuration
CREW
14 Officers, 54 Ratings, 500 Marines
ENGINEERING
Jump-4, 4G Maneuver, Power plant-5, 439.600 EP, Agility 4
AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/4fib Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/4fib Backup Computer
HARDPOINTS
4 100-ton bays (empty), 2 50-ton bays (fusion weapons)
ARMAMENT
2 50-ton Fusion Gun Bays (Factor-9)
CRAFT
30 10.000 ton Armored Vehicles
FUEL
3,956.400 Tons Fuel (4 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant
MISCELLANEOUS
287.0 Staterooms, 154.000 Tons Cargo (plus 4 x 100-ton bays, 
plus vehicle deck of 300 tons, for a total of 854 tons)
COST
MCr 6,349.236 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 62.864), 
MCr 5,029.098 in Quantity
CONSTRUCTION TIME
158 Weeks Singly, 126 Weeks in Quantity
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 09:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V.I. Parviainen)
Date: Sat Jun 15 08:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020615065810.00a0c480@mindspring.com>; from gridlore@mindspring.com on Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 06:59:43AM -0700
References: <165.ec21064.2a3bef22@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020615065810.00a0c480@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020615182305.B10380@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 06:59:43AM -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:

> Which makes me wonder about the possibility of doing Chez Beowulf.. The 
> nookie cards might be a problem.

One might argue that nookies in the game are not gratuitous, but
essential for the mental well-being of the crew and passengers.
</joke>

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 09:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Jun 15 08:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS OT way OT
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17C5F@r1clex01.cbr.defe
 nce.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020615113100.0202ed10@192.168.0.1>

At 05:31 PM 6/15/2002 +1000, Hughes, Michael wrote:
[snip]
>Lousy snail suckers.

Now that's a bit harsh. My grandfather told me he enjoyed his time off in 
Paris.

>Just curious, did Trav ever make into French? Are there French players out
>there? What about French Canadians (who I am led to understand sound like a
>17th century Bordeaux peasant women with bad held colds to the rest of the
>Franco world thanks to their isolated linguistic frenchying about town).

Well, there really is a good ob-trav in here.
Especially if you are playing in the New Era or Year 0.
Linguistics drift can cause no end of trials for players...

You really can't this too far...a RL example: A woman I used to work with 
was a native French speaker from Canada.
When she went to Quebec, she only spoke English.
That resulted in less grief than she would have gotten from speaking French.
You see, she wasn't from Quebec...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/.
Vikings? There ain't no Vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 09:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Jun 15 08:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020615065810.00a0c480@mindspring.com>
References: <165.ec21064.2a3bef22@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020615113813.0202f728@192.168.0.1>

At 06:59 AM 6/15/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
>At 09:15 PM 6/14/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>How many of you have generated a cover dealing with a subject Marc's
>>licensing criteria would veto?
>About half of mine would give him a heart attack.
>Which makes me wonder about the possibility of doing Chez Beowulf.. The 
>nookie cards might be a problem.

Make two sets...the official deck, and then the unofficial deck you sell 
mail order for cash...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 09:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Jun 15 08:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS OT way OT
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020615070056.009e3830@mindspring.com>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17C5F@r1clex01.cbr.defe nce.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020615114201.0202f208@192.168.0.1>

At 07:02 AM 6/15/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
>At 05:31 PM 6/15/02 +1000, you wrote:
>>Lousy snail suckers.
>The preferred term for the French on is.military.army is "Surrender Monkeys."

It's a good thing I had put the coffee cup down.  I *like* this keyboard.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
I'm what love is all about. I've got American Teeth
and a Spanish Mouth -- Fernando (Billy Crystal)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 11:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Jun 15 10:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] missing mail: 50/50
Message-ID: <23.1fb11a73.2a3cd45a@aol.com>

I sent two messages back-to-back, and the digest only seems to have found one 
of them. The other one apparently made it to the single-message list, since 
Leonard replied to it...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 11:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Jun 15 10:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS OT way OT
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020615113100.0202ed10@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEIGHMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


At 05:31 PM 6/15/2002 +1000, Hughes, Michael wrote:
[snip]
>Lousy snail suckers.

Now that's a bit harsh. My grandfather told me he enjoyed his time off in
Paris.

>Just curious, did Trav ever make into French? Are there French players out
>there? What about French Canadians (who I am led to understand sound like a
>17th century Bordeaux peasant women with bad held colds to the rest of the
>Franco world thanks to their isolated linguistic frenchying about town).

Well, there really is a good ob-trav in here.
Especially if you are playing in the New Era or Year 0.
Linguistics drift can cause no end of trials for players...

You really can't this too far...a RL example: A woman I used to work with
was a native French speaker from Canada.
When she went to Quebec, she only spoke English.
That resulted in less grief than she would have gotten from speaking French.
You see, she wasn't from Quebec...


heh

I learned French from someone who spoke with a strong Gascon accent
my second teacher spoke Parisian French.  she had many doubts about
whether I was even speaking French at all.

jml
"The tragedy of not being born on Regina
makes any other travail seem minor."

Lord Bertie Basil ffeffington-Smythe LXIV OC IN(Ret) ODG SOB KPI
Commissioner of Culture, Regina


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 11:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Jun 15 10:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Update
In-Reply-To: <003901c2144a$868cb920$639493c3@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20020615175400.BBBA627A38@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/15/02 at 09:55 AM,  "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
said:


>Traveller's Aide #2 is due out imminently, TA #3 is complete and has
>gone to layout. 

>TA#4 and #5 are well underway in the writing stage.

>As to the rulebook, it's in final editing. 1/3 has gone for layout
>and the rest should join it in a few days.

Based on how much is done, do you have a guess on when the rulebook
will be available? End of month, end of next month?

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 11:56:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Jun 15 10:56:07 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front Cover Rendering Machine
In-Reply-To: <006b01c2145f$8a4f59e0$e1b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <20020615175538.2C7C827A38@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/15/02 at 08:50 PM,  "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> said:

>I've been doing "For Munchkins Only" supplements for T4.

>I haven't done any that would violate Marc's licensing criteria
>_yet_.

>But that makes me wonder:  would "Gratuitous Sex and Violence" be a
>supplement, an adventure, or a double adventure?

That depends on what you put inside. <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 12:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Jun 15 11:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Update
In-Reply-To: <20020615175400.BBBA627A38@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <003901c2144a$868cb920$639493c3@martinjd>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020615135821.00cc3590@192.168.0.1>

At 12:53 PM 6/15/2002 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
[snip]
>Based on how much is done, do you have a guess on when the rulebook
>will be available? End of month, end of next month?

Ya, when?  I want one!



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend
that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 12:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Sat Jun 15 11:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Risks of Low Passage TIMS SHIP
References: <20020615032508.3441627C6D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001601c2149a$56e284c0$07a25940@dixienet.com>

OH Sureeeeeee!!!!!! ---  John Strain, Inspector Of Port Control

(for a description of the ship in question, bug Tim  at
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

Past notes....
John Strain wrote: > ROFLMO   - gezzz dis flys still??? -- John Strain :)

Tim's reply....
It's not quite flying yet, but it will.  Honestly.  You believe me,
don't you?

It's about to take its first interstellar voyage after a major refit.
With its new state-of-the-art compartmentalisation, it won't sink, um,
lose all its air even if it hits a deep-space iceberg -- uh, comet. - Tim



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 12:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Sat Jun 15 11:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
References: <20020615032508.3441627C6D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001901c2149b$173179c0$07a25940@dixienet.com>

Guity as charged, Sir!

20 covers?    John Strain


From: "Mark" <n2sami@attbi.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 20:23:51 -0700
Organization: the Discovery Process
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Loren asks, "OK, a show of hands: How many of you have generated a cover
dealing with a subject Marc's licensing criteria would veto?"






From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 12:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Jun 15 11:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS OT way OT
Message-ID: <memo.281127@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEIGHMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
On languages:

When travelling in North Africa (Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt), dearly beloved 
and I usually speak French rather than English - the locals seem to react 
to us better. Particularly marked in Tangiers.

Although some of the various parasites trying to get money off tourists 
can be persistant. We once walked out of our hotel in Tangiers to be 
accosted by one offering to 'guide' us - English and French proved no 
problem to him, so dearly beloved twinkled his eye and let fly in Russian. 
Drat, the fellow responded in kind! However I did manage to finally get 
rid of him with a torrent of Welsh. He couldn't cope with that!!! :-)

In Russia, I once had a long conversation with a Colonel from Georgia (the 
Russian one) in Moscow's Central Museum of the Soviet Armed Forces (this 
pre-glasnost)... in French, once we'd discovered his English was even 
worse than my Russian!

The relevance is, there are many times when languages can be useful - or a 
hindrance (if you don't speak them, or speak the wrong one!).

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 12:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Jun 15 11:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS OT way OT
In-Reply-To: <memo.281127@cix.compulink.co.uk>
References: <memo.281127@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <m3ofec8j5p.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson) writes:
>
> We once walked out of our hotel in Tangiers to be accosted by one
> offering to 'guide' us - English and French proved no problem to
> him, so dearly beloved twinkled his eye and let fly in Russian.
> Drat, the fellow responded in kind! However I did manage to finally
> get rid of him with a torrent of Welsh. He couldn't cope with
> that!!! :-)

I dunno--someone that well-versed might actually be useful.  Or leave
one lying in a ditch.  One or the other, anyway...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Taliban representative was explaining the good the Taliban had done
for the country.  He started his statement with `We have disarmed the
people...'                          --CNN special: Inside Afghanistan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 13:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Sat Jun 15 12:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <165.ec21064.2a3bef22@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206151230300.26017-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 14 Jun 2002 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> >   Well, so far I've generated about a dozen *very* interesting LBBS so far. 
> 
> >The thing's an absolute *hoot*, actually :)
> 
> OK, a show of hands:
> 
> How many of you have generated a cover dealing with a subject Marc's 
> licensing criteria would veto? 
> 
I think that "For Libertines Only -- Adventure 69, Polymorphously
Perverse" would count...


Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 13:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Jun 15 12:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Four Escorts
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020615014247.009c7cb0@minn.net>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020614214427.00ab25c0@mail.earthlink.net>
 <000801c2141c$1335d4d0$2f7de40c@loki>
 <165.ec21064.2a3bef22@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020615143615.009cd100@minn.net>

This is my main contribution to the ship design rodeo, I originally
intended to only do the mutiny-prone precursor to the GAZELLE class, but
this project just grew on me.

The following is excerpted from MERCHANTS AND PATROL SHIPS OF THE THIRD
IMPERIUM:


COUGAR-class Armored Escort

EA-12  COUGAR   EA-4134442-300000-34002-0 MCr 347.942  400 tons
     	 batteries bearing         22  1               Crew=12
                batteries         22  1               TL=12
Passengers=0. Low=0. Cargo=6. Fuel=138. EP=16. Agility=1. Marines=0

Tonnage:       	400 tons (standard), 5600 cubic meters.
Crew:               	4 officers, 8 ratings
Performance:        	Jump 3, 4-G, Power Plant 4, 16 EP, Agility 1.
Electronics:        	Model/4 computer.
Hardpoints:         	4 hardpoints.
Armament:      	One twin fusion gun turret (factor 4x2), One triple missile
turret (factor 2), Two triple beam laser turrets (factor 3x2).
Defenses:      	Armored hull (factor 3)
Craft:              	30-ton ship's boat, Air/Raft.
Fuel:               	138 tons, on board scoops and purification plant.
Cost:               	MCr 348.542 standard, MCr 278.954 in quantity.
Const. Time:        	16 months individually, 11 months in quantity
Comments:      	Built by Ling Standard Products, this design dates from the
first decade of the Imperium and was originally intended to be a more
combat-survivable supplement to the type-T patrol cruiser. Each of the
fusion guns in the two-ton double turret are fired separately by the Chief
Gunner and thus are each counted as a separate battery. The EA-12 is fitted
with twelve staterooms and may carry twelve additional personnel (marines,
naval boarding parties, prize crews, and SURFER teams) in double occupancy,
although standard practice usually limits additional personnel to eight. 
     The EA-12 COUGAR continues to serve in the backwater areas and client
states of the Imperium

Escort Boat 

EB-12  PUTTI-TAT   EB-0106611-300000-20000-0 MCr 34.12 30 tons TL=12
Crew=1. Passengers=8.Emergency Low Berths=5. Cargo=5.3. Fuel=1.8. Agility=2. 

Tonnage:       	30 tons (standard), 420 cubic meters.
Crew:               	Pilot
Performance:   	6-G, Power Plant 6, 1.8 EP, Agility 2.
Electronics:        	Model/2 computer rated as Model/1.
Armament:      	Beam laser (factor 1).
Defenses:      	Armored hull (factor 3)
Fuel:               	1.8 tons, on board scoops.
Cost:               	MCr 34.12 standard, MCr 27.296 in quantity.
Const. Time:   	24 weeks individually, 19 weeks and 2 days in quantity
Comments:      	This design is dimensionally identical with the Imperial
standard ship's boat and was the result of a very strong suggestion on the
part of Emperor Cleon II. A significant number of EB-12's were seriously
damaged or totally wrecked during Cleon II's post-abdication career as a
private citizen. The EB-12 was the preferred landing and support craft used
by eight-man SURFER (SURFace/Extravehicular/Reconnaissance) teams of the
antebellum Imperial Navy. 
     The origin of the class name is still the subject of heated debate.


CUDA-class Armored Escort, EA-13

EA-13  CUDA   EA-4134442-500000-44003-0 MCr 347.942  400 tons
      batteries bearing         22  1               Crew=12
              batteries         22  1               TL=13
Passengers=0. Low=0. Cargo=6. Fuel=138. EP=16. Agility=1. Marines=0

Tonnage:       	400 tons (standard), 5600 cubic meters.
Crew:               	4 officers, 8 ratings
Performance:   	Jump 3, 4-G, Power Plant 4, 16 EP, Agility 1.
Electronics:        	Model/4 computer.
Hardpoints:         	4 hardpoints.
Armament:      	One twin fusion gun turret (factor 4x2), One triple missile
turret (factor 3), Two
triple beam laser turrets (factor 4x2).
Defenses:      	Armored hull (factor 5)
Craft:              	30-ton ship's boat, G-carrier
Fuel:               	138 tons, on board scoops and purification plant.
Cost:               	MCr 320.11 standard, MCr 256.288 in quantity.
Const. Time:   	16 months individually, 11 months in quantity
Comments:      	The EA-13 CUDA class is essentially a product-improved
version of the EA-12 COUGAR class and is usually named for aquatic
predators, although one unit was christened INS BRUCE for some obscure
reason. Each of the fusion guns in the two-ton double turret are fired
separately by the Chief Gunner and thus are each counted as a separate
battery. The EA-13 is fitted with twelve staterooms and may carry twelve
additional personnel (marines, naval boarding parties, and prize crews.) in
double occupancy, although standard practice usually limits additional
personnel to eight. 
     EA-13 CUDA's continue to serve in backwater areas and client states of
the Imperium

Escort Boat 

EB-13  SMALL-FRY   EB-0106621-600000-20000-0 MCr 32.47 30 tons TL=13
Crew=1. Passengers=8.Emergency Low Berths=5 (for 20). Cargo=5.3. Fuel=1.8.
Agility=2. 

Tonnage:       	30 tons(standard), 420 cubic meters.
Crew:               	Pilot
Performance:   	6-G, Power Plant 6, 1.8 EP, Agility 2.
Electronics:        	Model/2 computer rated as Model/1.
Armament:      	Beam laser (factor 2).
Defenses:      	Armored hull (factor 6)
Fuel:               	1.8 tons, on board scoops.
Cost:               	MCr 32.47 standard, MCr 25.976 in quantity.
Const. Time:   	24 weeks individually, 19 weeks and 2 days in quantity
Comments:      	This design is an improved version of the  EB-12 and was
used by eight-man SURFER teams of all claimants to the Imperial throne.
SURFER teams were often used on "cutting-out" missions (stealing other
faction's ships) and assassination missions against other claimants and
their supporters. All SURFER units were officially disbanded by Empress
Arbellatra after the Imperial Civil War, although there are persistent
rumors that a SURFER type unit saw action on Algine in the Regina Subsector
during the Fifth Frontier War.
     
.
COBRA-class Close Escort, CE-13

CE-13  COBRA   CE-4144452-300000-44003-0  MCr 334.92  400 tons
       batteries bearing         22  1               Crew=12
               batteries         22  1               TL=13
Passengers=0. Low=0. Cargo=4. Fuel=180. EP=17. Agility=1. Marines=0

Tonnage:       	400 tons (standard), 5600 cubic meters.
Crew:               	4 officers, 8 ratings
Performance:   	Jump 4, 4-G, Power Plant 4, 17 EP, Agility 1.
Electronics:        	Model/5 computer.
Hardpoints:         	4 hardpoints.
Armament:      	One twin fusion gun turret (factor 4x2), One triple missile
turret (factor 3), Two
triple beam laser turrets (factor 4x2).
Defenses:      	Armored hull (factor 3)
Craft:               20-ton gig.
Fuel:                180 tons, on board scoops and purification plant.
Cost:                MCr 334.92 standard, MCr 267.936 in quantity.
Const. Time:     	16 months individually, 11 months in quantity
Comments:     	Built by Ling Standard Products, the CE-13 COBRA class was
designed to meet a specification for a revenue-collection/anti-piracy
vessel which could also perform reconnaissance/courier duties with the main
Imperial fleets.  Each of the fusion guns in the two-ton double turret are
fired separately by the Chief Gunner and thus are each counted as a
separate battery.  COBRA-class close escorts have a unfortunate reputation
for crew mutinies, although some historians believe that this was due to
special circumstances occurring during the Imperial Civil War.
     Although a number of CE-13 COBRA's have been transferred to private
owners (such as Oberlindes Lines), units of this class continue to serve in
backwater areas and client states of the Imperium. 

Armed Gig (Imperial Data Package-TL13/14 design).

GG (IDP13/14)    EB-0106B21-000000-20000-0 MCr 27.65 20 tons
 Agility=6       one battery               Crew=1. TL=13/14
Passengers=7..Emergency Low Berths=3 (for 12). Cargo=2. Fuel=2.2. 

Tonnage:       	20 tons (standard), 280 cubic meters.
Crew:               	Pilot
Performance:   	6-G, Power Plant , 2.2 EP, Agility 6.
Electronics:        	Model/2 Computer.
Armament:      	Beam laser (factor 2).
Defenses:      	n/a
Fuel:               	2.2 tons, on board scoops.
Cost:               	MCr 27.65
Const. Time:   	24 weeks individually, 19 weeks and 2 days in quantity
Comments:     	Standard unit designed by the Imperial Bureau of Naval
Construction and adopted for use on the COBRA, CARRONADE, GAZELLE, and
FIERY classes of escorts.


CARRONADE-class Close Escort, CE-14 (prototype-A)

CE-14 (prototype-A) CARRONADE CE-4144561-400000-45003-0 MCr 363.718  400 tons
                     batteries bearing          22  1            Crew=12
                               batteries        22  1            TL=14
Passengers=0. Low=0. Cargo=3. Fuel=184. EP=21. Agility=1. Marines=0

Tonnage:       	400 tons (standard), 5600 cubic meters.
Crew:               	4 officers, 8 ratings
Performance:   	Jump 4, 4-G, Power Plant 5, 21 EP, Agility 1.
Electronics:        	Model/6 computer.
Hardpoints:         	4 hardpoints.
Armament:      	One twin fusion gun turret (factor 5x2), One triple missile
turret (factor 3), Two
triple beam laser turrets (factor 4x2).
Defenses:      	Armored hull (factor 4)
Craft:              	20-ton gig.
Fuel:               	184 tons, on board scoops and purification plant.
Cost:               	MCr 363.718 standard, MCr 290.9744 in quantity.
Const. Time:   	16 months individually, 11 months in quantity
Comments:     	The CARRONADE class with its evolutionary improvements in
armor and weapons was intended to be the successor to the COBRA class close
escort. The Imperial Navy instead bought the GAZELLE class with its
'cost-effective' hull form, 'powerful' weapons suite, 'flexible' fuel
tankage configuration, and its 'secure' internal layout. There is some
variance of opinion as to the validity of this decision.
     The CARRONADE class is in limited production as replacements for COBRA
class vessels currently operated by client states and planetary navies of
the Imperium.  


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 13:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Jun 15 12:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <qh6ngu84v633a64t8qdmhlm618lvldq5jo@4ax.com>

Nifty little toy.  I'd love to see it enhanced:

(1a) Option to generate full-sized (i.e., the actual size of the LBB)
covers, OR

(1b) Option to allow the user to specify the dimensions to generate.

(2) Option to remove the broad top and/or bottom stripes.

(3) Option to generate covers in other languages (Russian? Japanese?
Vilani?)


--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 14:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Jun 15 13:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <qh6ngu84v633a64t8qdmhlm618lvldq5jo@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020615201712.359EA279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/15/02 at 03:53 PM,  Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> said:

>Nifty little toy.  I'd love to see it enhanced:

>(1a) Option to generate full-sized (i.e., the actual size of the LBB)
>covers, OR

>(1b) Option to allow the user to specify the dimensions to generate.

Can't you save the cover's image on your computer and then edit it?

>(2) Option to remove the broad top and/or bottom stripes.

Hum, if you make them black, won't they disappear?

>(3) Option to generate covers in other languages (Russian? Japanese?
>Vilani?)

Now, this I'd like! <g>  

(4) Some abiity to format the text would be nice as well, left, right,
center, point size. Okay, so that's asking a lot. <g>

IAC, this is a neat, and useful (regardless what any of us say <g>),
utility. Please, leave it up!

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 14:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Jun 15 13:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020615113813.0202f728@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020615065810.00a0c480@mindspring.com>
 <165.ec21064.2a3bef22@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020615133750.009eaec0@mindspring.com>

At 11:39 AM 6/15/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Make two sets...the official deck, and then the unofficial deck you sell 
>mail order for cash...

Like I have the money to get the rights to the engine, pay Kovalic for the 
art, and publish the cards.  That, and I want to keep writing for SJG.

This would have to be done through Steve Jackson Games.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 14:42:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Jun 15 13:42:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206151230300.26017-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <165.ec21064.2a3bef22@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020615133908.009ea270@mindspring.com>

At 12:31 PM 6/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>I think that "For Libertines Only -- Adventure 69, Polymorphously
>Perverse" would count...

OK, so who else has done Supplement/Adventure 69?

I've done Supplement 69: Sex and the Single Vargr


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 14:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Jun 15 13:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020615133908.009ea270@mindspring.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206151230300.26017-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <165.ec21064.2a3bef22@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020615154823.009cd5e0@minn.net>

At 01:40 PM 6/15/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>At 12:31 PM 6/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>I think that "For Libertines Only -- Adventure 69, Polymorphously
>>Perverse" would count...
>
>OK, so who else has done Supplement/Adventure 69?
>
>I've done Supplement 69: Sex and the Single Vargr

A single Vargr and who or what else?

(Reaching for the rolled uup newspaper.)<grin>


Les


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 14:51:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Jun 15 13:51:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick help needed!
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020615135010.009f5290@mindspring.com>

OK, I need one thing done *quickly*

GURPS stats for a TL 11, 10 lbs. vibro blade axe.

My old spreadsheet is corrupted and I can't find a replacement.

I need this by Sunday evening.  Thanks!

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                    - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 15:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat Jun 15 14:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: way OT
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEDICEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au>
>
>Still there is one shining Ob Trav out of it. It's an interesting case
study
>of high tech vs low tech. Except of course trav tech, with yummy sensors
and
>grav craft, would probably negate most of the probs the French had.

The French and the Viet Minh were at most one tech level apart.  Resources
were different, too.  E.g., the French had more air power and more radios,
but the Viet Minh had more men, more mortars, more rifles, etc.  Training
and mission motivation also differed.

To translate the scenario to Traveller, if the imperialist side has yummy
sensors and grav vehicles, the terrorist side should have slightly less
yummy jammers and perhaps slower grav vehicles.

We're playing Stargrunt II in the San Jose Traveller group.  That game
simulates TL 9-12 infantry combat pretty well, we think.  Maybe we'll try
for a scenario of Vilis (TL 10) versus the Tanoose Freedom League (say TL 9)
in 1106 or 1107.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 15:28:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat Jun 15 14:28:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  way OT
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEDICEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>ObTrav: Nicknames for people from other Imperial member worlds.  People
>from Mora will be stuck with an unfortunate name, as would the Loonies from
>Lunion.

The "i" in Regina will no doubt be pronounced "I", not "ee" for a slur:
"Oh, those troops are from Regina."

"Family Jewell" applies to anyone from the Jewell cluster, especially
Jewell, Emerald, and Ruby.  I guess that makes people from Zircon "Wannabe
family jewels."

Louzy, which I assume is properly pronouced loo-zee, will likely sound like
lousy.

I guess everyone calls the Darrians and the Sword Worlders the Elves and
Dwarves (much like everyone calls Californians the fruits and nuts).

Dinom dimbulbs.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 15:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sat Jun 15 14:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front Cover Rendering Machine
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEDICEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
>
>But that makes me wonder:  would "Gratuitous Sex and Violence" be a
>supplement, an adventure, or a double adventure?

I think it's a series of sourcebooks:

Gratuitous Sex and Violence:  Adventures with the Vargr
Gratuitous Sex and Violence:  The Solomani Say No and Yes
Gratuitous Sex and Violence:  The Hiver Way of Manipulation
Gratuitous Sex and Violence:  A New Look at the 2,000 Worlds
Gratuitous Sex and Violence:  The Zhodani Know You're Thinking About It

etc.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 15:32:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Jun 15 14:32:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020615133750.009eaec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020615213141.F2218279E0@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/15/02 at 01:38 PM,  Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
said:

>At 11:39 AM 6/15/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>Make two sets...the official deck, and then the unofficial deck you sell 
>>mail order for cash...

>Like I have the money to get the rights to the engine, pay Kovalic
>for the  art, and publish the cards.  That, and I want to keep
>writing for SJG.

>This would have to be done through Steve Jackson Games.

Just how explict do "nookie cards" *have* to be?  You don't think you
could make them indirect enough to pass the censor? 

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 15:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Jun 15 14:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020615154823.009cd5e0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <20020615213314.4278827A2E@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/15/02 at 03:48 PM,  Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> said:

>At 01:40 PM 6/15/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>>At 12:31 PM 6/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>>I think that "For Libertines Only -- Adventure 69, Polymorphously
>>>Perverse" would count...
>>
>>OK, so who else has done Supplement/Adventure 69?
>>
>>I've done Supplement 69: Sex and the Single Vargr

>A single Vargr and who or what else?

>(Reaching for the rolled uup newspaper.)<grin>

Read that title again. Clearly, it's about Vargr who are master's of
their own domain.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 16:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Jun 15 15:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick help needed!
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020615135010.009f5290@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020615135010.009f5290@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b9316d47703e@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:51 PM -0700 6/15/02, Douglas Berry wrote:
>OK, I need one thing done *quickly*
>
>GURPS stats for a TL 11, 10 lbs. vibro blade axe.
>
>My old spreadsheet is corrupted and I can't find a replacement.
>
>I need this by Sunday evening.  Thanks!

The only axe up around that weight is the Great Axe
Great Axe; sw+3 cutting dam, reach 1or2, 8 Lbs, Min ST 13, 1 turn to 
ready, $100.
(There is a rule that if your ST is 5 levels higher than the Min ST, 
you don't need to ready, I don't know if it is an official one).

You might also consider a hatchet because the extra damage won't be 
that much (once you add vibroblades) and it will be easier for a 
human to use.
Hatchet; sw cutting, reach 1, 2Lbs, Min ST 7, $40

TL 8 fine weapons are normal cost (+1 to damage), very fine (+2 to 
damage) are 4x cost, and super-fine (+3 to damage) are 20x cost.  I 
would assume that the progression continues at least on more level 
and that at TL 10 a weapon is superfine at 4x cost (if not either 
raise the cost or reduce the damage).  A vibroblade adds 1 d of 
damage and adds $1000, so that a superfine vibroaxe is...

Great Axe; sw+3+3+1d= swing damage + 2d+2, $1400 (the rest of the 
stats are unchanged).
Hatchet; sw+3+1d= swing damage + 2d-1, $1160 (the rest of the stats 
are unchanged).

For a ST 10 person, swing damage is 1d.

I would power the Great Axe with an A cell or multiple B cells.  (It 
will work 7.5 minutes with one B cell)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 17:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Jun 15 16:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Update
References: <003901c2144a$868cb920$639493c3@martinjd> <5.1.0.14.0.20020615135821.00cc3590@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <005b01c214c2$34be68a0$f89393c3@martinjd>

> At 12:53 PM 6/15/2002 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
> [snip]
> >Based on how much is done, do you have a guess on when the rulebook
> >will be available? End of month, end of next month?

I don't know how long Layout will take. The edit is just a couple of days,
and layout is already well advanced. But Hunter will have to answer this
one.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 17:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sat Jun 15 16:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick help needed!
Message-ID: <200206152331.QAA05037@molly.iii.com>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:

>OK, I need one thing done *quickly*
>
>GURPS stats for a TL 11, 10 lbs. vibro blade axe.

Hm...assuming that's a great axe, the base damage is Sw+3 with a reach of 2 
and a min ST of 13, but because it's a TL 7+ weapon it's 'fine' quality for
free, increasing damage to Sw+4.  In addition, vibro adds 1d6 and gives an
armor divisor of 5; arguably a vibro weapon is an energy weapon, in which
case it adds another +3 for +3 TLs.  We can convert Sw+1d+7(5) to Sw+3d(5),
or 5d-1(5) with a ST of 13.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 17:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Jun 15 16:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <20020615122011.A10380@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <3D0948E7.959AD6B1@ameritech.net> <ML-2.3.1024071902.524.ajackson@ping> <20020615122011.A10380@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <20020616095209.B9172@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mikko V.I. Parviainen wrote:
> Still, how long do you expect economy to grow? I think some day we
> won't have 5% growth every year, not even 1%.

I agree.  I think I can say pretty confidently that economic growth
*does* stop somewhere, even if it's somewhere way beyond anything we
can conceive of actually achieving at the moment.  There are physical
limits, after all, and I suspect that human desires are more limited
in the long run than economic theory would have one believe.

However, before such a point economic growth could do just about
anything.  All that follows this point is my own rather uninformed
speculation.


Personally, I expect growth to speed up in the relatively near future,
not slow down.  It seems likely that advancing technology and
scientific research are very close (within 30-100 years say) to both
directly enhancing human abilities and giving mass-produced machines
some economically useful properties that have previously been solely
the province of human beings.

In GURPS terms, I think that a late TL8 or a TL9 economy would see a
massive growth period in a fairly short time.  Possibly something like
20% growth per year for three or four decades, as near-human AI and
automated production and services really take off.

To paraphrase Mr Jackson, the capital investment per person would be
insane.  That is, by today's standards -- just as ours would be insane
by the standards of many earlier societies.  The value of most human
labour will not be able to keep up, and the division between rich and
poor will *really* widen -- but even the poverty line will probably be
well off by today's standards.  The rich will be unimaginably rich.
In today's terms, there would be quite a number of trillionaires, and
maybe one or two with a wealth measured in hundreds of trillions of
2002 US dollars.

Will we ever reach that point without encountering some disaster?  If
we do, what happens next?  All I can say with a high degree of
confidence is that our society *will* change greatly as a result, for
better or worse.  And it will be nothing like Traveller.


In short, I think Traveller is a nifty game setting, and it's
certainly fun to explore it using real-world physics, sociology, and
economics.  However, such exploration is limited in its applicability
to the game.  There are too many places where choices have to be made
between plausible realism and the game material as published over the
decades.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 18:36:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Jun 15 17:36:09 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  way OT
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEDICEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEDICEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <m33cvo83hc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:
> 
> The "i" in Regina will no doubt be pronounced "I", not "ee" for a
> slur: "Oh, those troops are from Regina."

Isn't that how it's pronounced?  I'd think the re-GEEEEEENA would be
the insult...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Burning books is _wrong_.  So we shot them instead.
 --Graham Clark on Dianetics and Battlefield Earth

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Jun 15 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Languages
Message-ID: <11f.122f2e1d.2a3d39d8@aol.com>

>The relevance is, there are many times when languages can be useful - or a 
>hindrance (if you don't speak them, or speak the wrong one!).

My experience in Sweden was that the locals would tolerate about 10 words of 
my painfully-slow-syllable-by-syllable-right-out-of-the-guidebook attempt at 
Swedish and switched to English after thanking me for at least trying. I was 
guest at a gaming Convention, and most of the attendees spoke English to some 
degree. Many people swarmed me because they wanted to learn American slang. 
There are advantages to being the dumb-but-well-meaning-foreigner in some 
places.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 19:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Sat Jun 15 18:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The scout logos
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b9316d47703e@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206160317050.217629-100000@svati>


I'm looking for the scout logos. I know I've seen them on the web
somewhere, but can't find them out there in the void. Anyone who
can point me in the right direction?

Tommy Grav


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 20:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Jun 15 19:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Languages
In-Reply-To: <11f.122f2e1d.2a3d39d8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020615221024.01a61910@192.168.0.1>

At 08:46 PM 6/15/2002 -0400, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> >The relevance is, there are many times when languages can be useful - or a
> >hindrance (if you don't speak them, or speak the wrong one!).
>My experience in Sweden was that the locals would tolerate about 10 words of
>my painfully-slow-syllable-by-syllable-right-out-of-the-guidebook attempt at
>Swedish and switched to English after thanking me for at least trying. I was
>guest at a gaming Convention, and most of the attendees spoke English to some
>degree. Many people swarmed me because they wanted to learn American slang.
>There are advantages to being the dumb-but-well-meaning-foreigner in some
>places.

As one local explained it to me during my week in Stockholm, "We love to 
travel. Nobody speaks Swedish."
The kids working at McBurgers spoke English.


------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Writing about jazz is like dancing about
architecture" -- Thelonius Monk
------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 20:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Jun 15 19:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <20020615213314.4278827A2E@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020615154823.009cd5e0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020615212644.009cfa30@minn.net>

At 04:33 PM 6/15/2002 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>On 06/15/02 at 03:48 PM,  Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> said:

>>>I've done Supplement 69: Sex and the Single Vargr
>
>>A single Vargr and who or what else?
>
>>(Reaching for the rolled uup newspaper.)<grin>
>
>Read that title again. Clearly, it's about Vargr who are master's of
>their own domain.
>
>Eris

Oh, they're into leather?

(He said as he prepped for tonight's showing of TRHPS)


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 20:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew W. Helton)
Date: Sat Jun 15 19:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020615212644.009cfa30@minn.net>
Message-ID: <000001c214de$c993ff50$0300a8c0@acheronlv426>

Some people need it spelled out, don't they?

What do dogs do constantly to their genitalia? 

Why do they do it? Because they can.



-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Leslie Bates
Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 9:27 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator

At 04:33 PM 6/15/2002 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>On 06/15/02 at 03:48 PM,  Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> said:

>>>I've done Supplement 69: Sex and the Single Vargr
>
>>A single Vargr and who or what else?
>
>>(Reaching for the rolled uup newspaper.)<grin>
>
>Read that title again. Clearly, it's about Vargr who are master's of
>their own domain.
>
>Eris

Oh, they're into leather?

(He said as he prepped for tonight's showing of TRHPS)


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
=================================================================
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 20:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Jun 15 19:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: LBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <20020616022905.A6AC527A57@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020616022905.A6AC527A57@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <1bvnguoaf9gouhi52gehogjislrgdb7o2p@4ax.com>

On Sat, 15 Jun 2002 19:27:04 -0700, "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
wrote:

>On 06/15/02 at 03:53 PM,  Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> said:

>>Nifty little toy.  I'd love to see it enhanced:

>>(1a) Option to generate full-sized (i.e., the actual size of the LBB)
>>covers, OR

>>(1b) Option to allow the user to specify the dimensions to generate.

>Can't you save the cover's image on your computer and then edit it?

Stretching it increases pixellation.

>>(2) Option to remove the broad top and/or bottom stripes.

>Hum, if you make them black, won't they disappear?

So will the "TRAVELLER" and the thin stripe in the middle.

>>(3) Option to generate covers in other languages (Russian? Japanese?
>>Vilani?)

>Now, this I'd like! <g>  

>(4) Some abiity to format the text would be nice as well, left, right,
>center, point size. Okay, so that's asking a lot. <g>

Point size, yes.  LCR, I'd argue against.

>IAC, this is a neat, and useful (regardless what any of us say <g>),
>utility. Please, leave it up!

Hear, hear!


--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 20:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Jun 15 19:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Vargr Flexibility
In-Reply-To: <000001c214de$c993ff50$0300a8c0@acheronlv426>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020615212644.009cfa30@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020615215742.009d6100@minn.net>

At 09:37 PM 6/15/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Some people need it spelled out, don't they?
>
>What do dogs do constantly to their genitalia? 
>
>Why do they do it? Because they can.

Really and truely?

Gosh, do Vargr still stick their heads out of car windows with their
tongues hanging out in your universe?

I never thought that Vargr were THAT flexible. Why DID Grandfather give
them proper hands?


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 21:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew W. Helton)
Date: Sat Jun 15 20:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Vargr Flexibility
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020615215742.009d6100@minn.net>
Message-ID: <000101c214e3$12339fa0$0300a8c0@acheronlv426>

Now that you mention it, there is an image of a Vargr (complete with the
stuck out tongue) hanging out of an air raft in one of the DGP
publications...

It's just so racistly stereotypical....

  


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Leslie Bates
Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 9:58 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Vargr Flexibility

At 09:37 PM 6/15/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Some people need it spelled out, don't they?
>
>What do dogs do constantly to their genitalia? 
>
>Why do they do it? Because they can.

Really and truely?

Gosh, do Vargr still stick their heads out of car windows with their
tongues hanging out in your universe?

I never thought that Vargr were THAT flexible. Why DID Grandfather give
them proper hands?


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
=================================================================
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 21:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Jun 15 20:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Vargr Flexibility
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020615215742.009d6100@minn.net>
Message-ID: <20020616030912.EF3FE27A2A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/15/02 at 09:57 PM,  Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> said:

>At 09:37 PM 6/15/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>Some people need it spelled out, don't they?
>>
>>What do dogs do constantly to their genitalia? 
>>
>>Why do they do it? Because they can.

>Really and truely?

>Gosh, do Vargr still stick their heads out of car windows with their
>tongues hanging out in your universe?

Do you mean *you've* never had the urge to stick *your* head out of a
car? Dogs just have the guts to do it, and why shouldn't the
occasional Vargr. As for tongues hanging out...that's the lack of
sweat glands, and that might or might not have been adjusted. <g>

>I never thought that Vargr were THAT flexible. Why DID Grandfather
>give them proper hands?

The better to...um, you know...with!

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 21:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Jun 15 20:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Great TML Unboring Ship Rodeo
Message-ID: <3D0C02D4.A2B9002@mail.cswnet.com>

>I should generate some award certificates for the last 
>winners.
>Hmmm...anybody remember who got first and second?

Are we talking ISSDEC or the last NPC contest?

Last I remembered, the NPC contest was a tie.

As for ISSDEC, we probably have an insufficient quorum.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 21:20:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Erich Brackmann)
Date: Sat Jun 15 20:20:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Vargr Flexibility
In-Reply-To: <20020616030912.EF3FE27A2A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <OGBBICAMOLJHJILPIOEPEEBCCBAA.kaukgannir@comcast.net>

>I never thought that Vargr were THAT flexible. Why DID Grandfather
>give them proper hands?

The better to...um, you know...with!

Eris
--

 This obviously explains their inferior eyesight.  ;)
		- Erich


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 21:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Erich Brackmann)
Date: Sat Jun 15 20:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Vargr Flexibility
In-Reply-To: <000101c214e3$12339fa0$0300a8c0@acheronlv426>
Message-ID: <OGBBICAMOLJHJILPIOEPOEBCCBAA.kaukgannir@comcast.net>

Now that you mention it, there is an image of a Vargr (complete with the
stuck out tongue) hanging out of an air raft in one of the DGP
publications...

It's just so racistly stereotypical....


Having just seen Undercover Brother, that line has some really odd things
spinning off in my head...
- Erich



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 21:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Jun 15 20:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
Message-ID: <20020615.202947.-191427.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

 
> Mikko V.I. Parviainen wrote:
> > Still, how long do you expect economy to grow? I think some day we
> > won't have 5% growth every year, not even 1%.

>Timothy Little wrote: 
> I agree.  I think I can say pretty confidently that economic growth
> *does* stop somewhere, even if it's somewhere way beyond anything we
> can conceive of actually achieving at the moment.  There are 
> physical
> limits, after all, and I suspect that human desires are more limited
> in the long run than economic theory would have one believe.

<snip>

Within my Conservation studies of 1996 this was shockingly discussed as a
balancing act between population increases vs. food production.

 The studies pointed to population exceeding production of food for the
entire planet by 2020 "IF" extreme control measures were not implemented.
Many population controls are working with China in 1st place. However,
third world countries are getting worse, one negative factor is the lack
of birth control allowed. Food production in the USA is drastically being
reduced, weather, finances, pollution, etc. Advances are being made
though in  "beefing up" crop growth genetically, yet all in all the
barrier will be crossed and famine will destroy a major portion of earths
population. But the survivors will have food, and begin the cycle again.

 Turokan


-   ....   .   .-.   .       ..   ...       -.   ---   -.   .       .-.  
---   .-..   -.--       .-   ...       -   ....   .       .-..   ---  
.-.   -..   ---...       ..-.   ---   .-.       -   ....   .   .-.   .   
   ..   ...       -.   ---   -.   .       -...   .   ...   ..   -..   .  
    -   ....   .   .   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 21:31:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Jun 15 20:31:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Vargr Flexibility
In-Reply-To: <20020616030912.EF3FE27A2A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEKDHMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

>Gosh, do Vargr still stick their heads out of car windows with their
>tongues hanging out in your universe?

In airrafts and ground cars are okay,  We tend to discourage it in 
spacecraft; especially while in space.  

jml
Wow, ol' Navigator Spot's ears are really flapping in the wind



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 21:38:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Jun 15 20:38:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo List...the entrants so far
Message-ID: <3D0C0728.752B349@mail.cswnet.com>

My list of who's put ships in the Rodeo, as of the time of this post.
If I've missed anyone, let me know...

Looks like the shipyards in the Twin Cities have been busy. I may have
to send my agents in Maple Grove to investigate.

1. Cougar class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
2. Valuta class Assault Landing Ship--John Kwon
3. DBZ class Heavy Attack Scout--Dan Roseberry
4. Cuda class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
5. Cobra class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
6. Carronade class Close Escort--Leslie Bates

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 21:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Jun 15 20:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo List...the entrants so far
In-Reply-To: <3D0C0728.752B349@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020615225753.009dc100@minn.net>

At 10:34 PM 6/15/2002 -0500, Dan Roseberry wrote:
>My list of who's put ships in the Rodeo, as of the time of this post.
>If I've missed anyone, let me know...
>
>Looks like the shipyards in the Twin Cities have been busy. I may have
>to send my agents in Maple Grove to investigate.
>
>1. Cougar class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
>2. Valuta class Assault Landing Ship--John Kwon
>3. DBZ class Heavy Attack Scout--Dan Roseberry
>4. Cuda class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
>5. Cobra class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
>6. Carronade class Close Escort--Leslie Bates

I haven't quite got around to doing CHAUCHAT, CAMELOT, COSSACK, and
CHILLI-WILLI yet.

I'm also mulling over writing up a fictional interview with a master
shipwright who will explain why the GAZELLE is such a piece of junk and why
the proposed CE-NG, the ROOIKAT, is even worse.


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 22:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Alain=20Ducharme?=)
Date: Sat Jun 15 21:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS OT way OT
In-Reply-To: <20020615190105.1953827A46@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020616040607.88634.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com>

Sorry, but most of what you said is not only untrue,
it is also very insulting. I am Qubcois, and in the
last years taught some class at the university level
where some of the students were french. I only got
good feedback from them, and there really wasn't any
language barrier.

Sure, they didn't get some of the colloquial
expressions I used from time to time, but it's really
no different that if you sent a New Yorker in the UK.

FWIW, the language drift is far greater in English
than in French. I use the same dictionnary than
somebody in Paris, while the game we would be
discussing were we not so outrageously OT is quite
definitely not called "Traveler".

Alain

> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:33:11 -0700
> From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
> Subject: RE: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS OT way OT
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> >Just curious, did Trav ever make into French? Are
> there French players out
> >there? What about French Canadians (who I am led to
> understand sound like a
> >17th century Bordeaux peasant women with bad held
> colds to the rest of the
> >Franco world thanks to their isolated linguistic
> frenchying about town).
> 
> You really can't this too far...a RL example: A
> woman I used to work with
> was a native French speaker from Canada.
> When she went to Quebec, she only spoke English.
> That resulted in less grief than she would have
> gotten from speaking French.
> You see, she wasn't from Quebec...

___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en franais !
Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 22:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Jun 15 21:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS OT way OT
In-Reply-To: <20020616040607.88634.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEKGHMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

er, my header got stuck on this mss, but I didn't write it

jml
"Silly Sword worlder Ka-Nig-It. I send a Vagyr to lick hees
privates at vous."




Sorry, but most of what you said is not only untrue,
it is also very insulting. I am Qubcois, and in the
last years taught some class at the university level
where some of the students were french. I only got
good feedback from them, and there really wasn't any
language barrier.

Sure, they didn't get some of the colloquial
expressions I used from time to time, but it's really
no different that if you sent a New Yorker in the UK.

FWIW, the language drift is far greater in English
than in French. I use the same dictionnary than
somebody in Paris, while the game we would be
discussing were we not so outrageously OT is quite
definitely not called "Traveler".

Alain

> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:33:11 -0700
> From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
> Subject: RE: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS OT way OT
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> >Just curious, did Trav ever make into French? Are
> there French players out
> >there? What about French Canadians (who I am led to
> understand sound like a
> >17th century Bordeaux peasant women with bad held
> colds to the rest of the
> >Franco world thanks to their isolated linguistic
> frenchying about town).
>
> You really can't this too far...a RL example: A
> woman I used to work with
> was a native French speaker from Canada.
> When she went to Quebec, she only spoke English.
> That resulted in less grief than she would have
> gotten from speaking French.
> You see, she wasn't from Quebec...

___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en franais !
Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 22:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Alain=20Ducharme?=)
Date: Sat Jun 15 21:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS OT way OT
In-Reply-To: <20020615190105.1953827A46@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020616041901.8764.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com>

> er, my header got stuck on this mss, but I didn't
write it

Oups, sorry.

Alain


___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en franais !
Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 22:21:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat Jun 15 21:21:12 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  way OT
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEDICEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGELGHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

> Glenn M. Goffin wrote :

> The "i" in Regina will no doubt be pronounced "I", not
> "ee" for a slur: "Oh, those troops are from Regina."

But the "i" is _supposed_ to be pronounced "eye".
And the 'g' is hard too, so it's supposed to be pronounced
"Regg-eye-na".

It's the people who pronounce it "redge-in-a" or "regg-in-a"
"ree-jina" that will be given a hard time at Customs.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 22:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Jun 15 21:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo List...the entrants so far
Message-ID: <200206160435.IOB01315@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>  
>Subject: [TML] Rodeo List...the entrants so far  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>My list of who's put ships in the Rodeo, as of the time of 
>this post.
>If I've missed anyone, let me know...
>

I posted the Chukkar also.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 22:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Jun 15 21:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] History question...
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020616005012.00ca5b00@mail.charter.net>

When was the TML bar fight?


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Discord, the Goddess of the Net, was developing a taste for blood sacrifice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 22:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Jun 15 21:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <20020615.202947.-191427.2.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020615.202947.-191427.2.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020616145530.A9975@freeman.little-possums.net>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
>  The studies pointed to population exceeding production of food for
> the entire planet by 2020 "IF" extreme control measures were not
> implemented.

In first-world countries, food production capability both per person
and per unit land area has vastly increased over the last century or
so.  If food ever actually started to become scarce, production could
easily increase further without external intervention.  Higher food
prices would make it worthwhile to farm land that currently produces
next to nothing, and economical to employ farming techniques that are
more productive but a bit more expensive per unit of produce.

Our current food production techniques could fairly easily accomodate
a trebling of output over the next twenty years without any
intervention at all.  That's a lot more than the population growth
expected over the same period.  It also assumes no technological
advances, and only minor price increases.  In first-world countries,
there is also a lot of 'slack' in the system -- we eat far more than
we need to, and more expensive types of food at that.


Even if the population exceeded our ability to produce, I very much
doubt that there would be a growth/starvation cycle.  Humans breed far
too slowly and energy-intensively for that.  The positive feedback of
"people make more people" is delayed by a generation.  The negative
feedback "not enough food means more deaths" is much more immediate as
children die while growing up.  Such feedback properties generally
lead to a stable limit point, not a boom/crash cycle.  This is a
rather callous way to look at it, I agree.

Now, there is one case where I could see a major population crash due
to insufficient food: if the first-world countries became very
effective at distributing cheap and/or free food to third-world
nations using their far more efficient farming techniques, the
recipients could well become totally dependent upon such aid.  If the
level of aid rose to levels that could no longer be supplied by the
first-world nations, such an aid policy might change very rapidly.  If
so, there would indeed be a population crash of massive proportions as
billions fight, starve, and die when the aid is cut off.

In short, you might get a boom/crash starvation cycle if you *do*
intervene, but not if you don't.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 15 23:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Jun 15 22:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
Message-ID: <20020615.223850.-191427.3.generalturokan@juno.com>

> generalturokan@juno.com 
> >  The studies pointed to population exceeding production of food for
> > the entire planet by 2020 "IF" extreme control measures were not
> > implemented.
> 
> Timothy Little wrote:
> In short, you might get a boom/crash starvation cycle if you *do*
> intervene, but not if you don't.

I agree with you, and as my books are packed, the 2020 date may be 2050.
Either way it was an "IF" study from the course.

We have already intervened in African countries, and with their added
wars we're seeing the crash now.  There are several African countries
whose population factor is 9:1 (from the course) China's is 1:1, USA
1.8:1. The Latin countries with strong Catholic bonds have no birth
control because of their beliefs.

The third world will go through the cycle, not the first worlders.

Turokan

-   ....   .   .-.   .       ..   ...       -.   ---   -.   .       .-.  
---   .-..   -.--       .-   ...       -   ....   .       .-..   ---  
.-.   -..   ---...       ..-.   ---   .-.       -   ....   .   .-.   .   
   ..   ...       -.   ---   -.   .       -...   .   ...   ..   -..   .  
    -   ....   .   .   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 00:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Jun 15 23:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Thanks Tod
Message-ID: <20020615.230909.-191427.4.generalturokan@juno.com>

Thanks Tod,

For fixing the undeliverable looped back problem.

I haven't seen anymore in the past two days.

You're doing a fine job, and desirve more credit than we give.

So thanks again :~)

Turokan

-   ....   .   .-.   .       ..   ...       -.   ---   -.   .       .-.  
---   .-..   -.--       .-   ...       -   ....   .       .-..   ---  
.-.   -..   ---...       ..-.   ---   .-.       -   ....   .   .-.   .   
   ..   ...       -.   ---   -.   .       -...   .   ...   ..   -..   .  
    -   ....   .   .   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 00:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Jun 15 23:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front Cover Rendering Machine
In-Reply-To: <006b01c2145f$8a4f59e0$e1b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3D0CD668.607.444868@localhost>

On 15 Jun 2002, at 20:50, Alan Bradley wrote:

> But that makes me wonder:  would "Gratuitous Sex and Violence" be a
> supplement, an adventure, or a double adventure?

Given the recent discussion on the list, I'd say a core rule book


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 00:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Jun 15 23:26:02 2002
Subject: Pell Class RE: [TML] The Great TML Unboring Ship Rodeo
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020614231632.0177c008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEKNHMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


400-ton Pell-class, Union (TL10)

Crew: 16 Total. 5 Command and Control, 
1 Medical, 2 Turret Gunners, 8 Flight Crew.

Hull: 400-ton VGSL, Medium Frame, Standard Materials, 
Durasteel (Standard) Armored Cylinder configuration 
Hull (DR 100), Standard Compartmentalization.

Control Areas: Basic Bridge (Complexity 7).

Communicator Range (mi)  	Radio  Maser  Laser  	Meson  
Basic Bridge 			50,000,000 	0 100,000,000 0 
Sensors Range/Rating (mi)  	PESA  	AESA  	Radscanner  
Basic Bridge 			20,000/37 100,000/41 2,000/31 

Engineering: 2 Engineering, 13 Jump Drive, 57 Maneuver Drivw
(1.52 / 2.19 Gs, 2,280 stons thrust), 90 Fuel Tank (Loaded 
with 90 stons), 7 Fuel Processor (1.6 hours to refine ), 
Utility, 6 Gravitics (2,700 stons Aerostatic Lift), 
52.6 Man-Hours/day Maintenance.

Accommodations: 10 Stateroom, Full Life Support, 
Sickbay (2 Patients), 32 Low Berth (128 Cryoberths), 
Logistics (6 Users).

Armaments: 2 Turret Batteries of 3 ea
ch (DR100, 2x250 Mj Std Laser[RoF Bonus +2], Sand Caster [200]).

Weapon Name  Qty  Type  Acc  SS  Dmg  RoF  1/2 Rng  Max  
250 Mj Std Laser 12 Imp 32 30 5dx50(2) 1/60 (+7) 17000/2 51100/5 
Sand Caster [200] 6     (+0)   

Stores: 72.5 Hold (5-sTon Forklift, 48-sTon Grav Lifter, 
5-sTon Exoskeleton, 70.4 dtons free for cargo), Spacedock 
(2xAir/raft, 2x30-ton Ship's Boat, 
2x10-ton Short Duration Lifeboat).

Statistics: EMass 1,041.8 stons, LMass 1,496.96 stons, Cost MCr120.01, 
HP 29,816, Damage Threshold 2,982, Size Mod 9, HT 12, CP 68.

Performance: Jump-2 (2.2), sAcc 1.52 / 2.19 Gs, Airspeed 2,934 mph, 
Skimming Airspeed 8,296 mph, Aerostatic Lift 4,980 stons.

Sample Times : Orbit 0.15 Hrs, Escape Velocity 0.21 Hrs, 100D 5.17 Hrs, 
Earth-Mars 88.83 Hrs.

Options
All times are Earth Std, Full Load.
100D and Earth-Mars assume mid-point turnover.
Turrets add to Jump Tonnage for Jump Drive/Fuel calculations



Printed with GTS Version 2.20.00 on 6/15/2002 10:36:37 PM
Copyright http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

The Pell class is a cargo ship frequently found in use by interface lines 
and as a subsidized freighter used by mail and trade unions within the 
imperium.  It is armed and so can carry mail. And the fact that it
can carry up to 132 people in cold sleep, dramatically reduces it
internal security needs.  Note, in colony or agricultural world, the 
low berth can be refitted to carry frozen ova.

The Pell class is capable of landing on virtually any inhabited planet --
G-wise -- the ship is not Gale rated.  Once landed, the ship carries
the equipment need to perform its own loading and unloading.  

With a Jump 2 and wilderness refueling capable, it is not tied to
the mains but can access a substantial percentage of the markets in the
Imperium and surrounding client states.  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 00:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew W. Helton)
Date: Sat Jun 15 23:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front Cover Rendering Machine
In-Reply-To: <3D0CD668.607.444868@localhost>
Message-ID: <000001c21500$7559d500$0300a8c0@acheronlv426>

Splort!


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Andrew & Dii
Moffatt-Vallance
Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 1:18 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] LBB Front Cover Rendering Machine 

On 15 Jun 2002, at 20:50, Alan Bradley wrote:

> But that makes me wonder:  would "Gratuitous Sex and Violence" be a
> supplement, an adventure, or a double adventure?

Given the recent discussion on the list, I'd say a core rule book

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 01:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Jun 16 00:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <20020615.223850.-191427.3.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020615.223850.-191427.3.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020616171453.A13754@freeman.little-possums.net>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> We have already intervened in African countries, and with their
> added wars we're seeing the crash now.

Yes, that came to mind after I sent my post.


> The third world will go through the cycle, not the first worlders.

I don't reckon the third world as a whole will go through such cycles,
though.  Just some areas will starve here and there at different times
-- though no less tragic for that.  As a whole, I expect a fairly
steady state, with population growth slowing fairly smoothly.  I think
we're in a transition stage at the moment, where a recent (in
historical terms) surge in food production has triggered an alarming
surge in population growth.  It won't last, one way or the other.

I'd rather it slowed through a decrease in births rather than an
increase in deaths, but in the long run the result is the same.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 01:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Sun Jun 16 00:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS RE: Way OT
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17C60@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Sorry, but most of what you said is not only untrue,
it is also very insulting. I am Qu=E9b=E9cois, and in the
last years taught some class at the university level
where some of the students were french. I only got
good feedback from them, and there really wasn't any
language barrier.

Sure, they didn't get some of the colloquial
expressions I used from time to time, but it's really
no different that if you sent a New Yorker in the UK.

FWIW, the language drift is far greater in English
than in French. I use the same dictionnary than
somebody in Paris, while the game we would be
discussing were we not so outrageously OT is quite
definitely not called "Traveler".

Alain

=20
Alain,

I owe you and the rest of the Qu=E9b=E9cois world an apology. I was in =
a weird
place when I wrote that and thought it would be funny.=20

So sorry and apologies rendered.=20

It is interesting to note the analogy between your brand of French with =
a
NYker in the UK. I admit that I have trouble understanding our New =
Zealand
brethren, who are even less in distance from us than France and Canada. =


They call eskies (or coolers) chilly-bins. And thongs (backless =
sandals) are
Jandals.=20

How funny is that?

Mikey

PS Essay still going.

PPS Nice to see that the French world is represented in Traveller.=20

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 01:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Sun Jun 16 00:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Great TML Unboring Ship Rodeo
References: <F68quAE69ifZArOJ1qL000207d3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001901c21508$d32da1e0$1c577b83@Gideon>

Here is my entry, I'll write up a more elaborate background tomorrow
hopefully <smile>...

Ship: Juniper
Class: Juniper
Type: Missile Corvette
Architect: Anthony Colosetti
Tech Level: 12

USP
         LM-A4345F2-300000-04009-0 MCr 1,051.369 1.2 KTons
Bat Bear                    1  1   Crew: 22
Bat                         1  1   TL: 12

Cargo: 117.000 Fuel: 420.000 EP: 60.000 Agility: 4 Shipboard Security
Detail: 1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 10.514   Cost in Quantity: MCr 841.095


Detailed Description

HULL
1,200.000 tons standard, 16,800.000 cubic meters, Close Structure
Configuration

CREW
10 Officers, 12 Ratings

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 4G Manuever, Power plant-5, 60.000 EP, Agility 4

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/6fib Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 100-ton bay, 2 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
1 100-ton Missile Bay (Factor-9), 2 Dual Plasma Gun Turrets organised into 1
Battery (Factor-4)

DEFENCES
Armoured Hull (Factor-3)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
420.000 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
13.0 Staterooms, 117.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 1,061.883 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 10.514), MCr 841.095 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
123 Weeks Singly, 99 Weeks in Quantity
Ship: Juniper
Class: Juniper
Type: Missile Corvette
Architect: Anthony Colosetti
Tech Level: 12

USP
         LM-A4345F2-300000-04009-0 MCr 1,051.369 1.2 KTons
Bat Bear                    1  1   Crew: 22
Bat                         1  1   TL: 12

Cargo: 117.000 Fuel: 420.000 EP: 60.000 Agility: 4 Shipboard Security
Detail: 1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 10.514   Cost in Quantity: MCr 841.095


Detailed Description

HULL
1,200.000 tons standard, 16,800.000 cubic meters, Close Structure
Configuration

CREW
10 Officers, 12 Ratings

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 4G Manuever, Power plant-5, 60.000 EP, Agility 4

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/6fib Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 100-ton bay, 2 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
1 100-ton Missile Bay (Factor-9), 2 Dual Plasma Gun Turrets organised into 1
Battery (Factor-4)

DEFENCES
Armoured Hull (Factor-3)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
420.000 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
13.0 Staterooms, 117.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 1,061.883 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 10.514), MCr 841.095 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
123 Weeks Singly, 99 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS

The Juniper's hull was laid down within the first year of Third Frontier War
(979 to 986).  Designed as a picket escort, the Juniper-class performed
adequately in its intended role.  Commanders within a short time saw the
advantage of the Juniper's missile capability and began posting small
squadrons to minelayer duty.  The design proved to be successful and the
Juniper saw action again a few short years later in the Solomani Rim War
(990 to 1002).  During the war years it is estimated over 250 Juniper class
corvettes were constructed.  In the uneasy calm that surfaced in the years
following these two conflicts the remaining Junipers were regulated to
various mothball fleets around the Imperium.  Within a short time various
merchant consortiums began to buy these surplus vessels from the Navy.
After removing the launch mechanisms from the missile bay the ship sports
over 200 tons of cargo space.  Unlike most military surplus the Junipers did
not require TL 14 or 15 shipyards to refit so were well received to merchant
fleets operating out of less industrial hubs.  In addition the vessel was a
sturdy design and required little in the way of maintenance though this had
more to do with the simple layout than any inherent design perk.  Within
fifty years nearly 150 Juniper-class corvettes were owned and operated as
civilian vessels in both the Solomani Rim and Spinward Marches.  The design
saw action again during the False War (1082 to 1084) but was not as well
recieved due to the Juniper's age.  Today shipping analysts believe there
are approximately 25 Juniper-class vessels working the various trade routes
of the Spinward Marches and nearly twice that number in the area of the
Solomani Rim.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 02:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sun Jun 16 01:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU Setting
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206150128050.1430-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <000901c2150f$c4e30420$ef00a8c0@imogen>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wroe:
> Well, right there is the big problem I have with Pixie and similar
> systems. To me "I can't come up with an explanation that my players
> would accept as reasonable" is just a long-winded way of saying
> "it's broken" (with the corrolary "and ought to be fixed").

I didn't actually say that.  Okay, how about ...

- The Naval base is there partly to study an Ancient site (its an
  unannounced  Imperial  Research  Station),  partly  to  control
  piracy in the coreward end of the subsector  (both  the  Menorb
  and Kinorb clusters), and partly to  protect  the  shipyard  (a
  major corporate shipyard is  an  Imperial  economic  asset  and
  the shipyard probably builds military vessels too).

- The starport is small but gets a class  A  rating  due  to  the
  presence of the shipbuilding facility.

- The shipyard is there because General wanted a location in  the
  subsector and the lack of a proper government on Pixie means no
  local taxation and no local labour laws.

- The x-boat link was routed through Pixie (instead of just going
  straight to the Kinorb cluster) to service both the  shipyard's
  high volume of corporate mail to/from head office, and all  the
  contract workers' correspondance.

All the workers are contractors (or naval staff) and thus weren't
counted by the IGS as Pixie residents (they're residents of other
places).  Only the 90 miners want to  stay,  so  only  they  were
counted by the IGS.



> Even granted that 60 people were capable of forming a
> self-sustaining society (which I'm not really willing to), what
> makes Pixie's neighboring governments willing to accept them as
> a soveriegn people?

We  could  be  talking  several  family  operations  passed  down
parent-to-child atleast once by 1065 (IGS2 publication date)  and
a few geneations since, there is no government structure as such.
Pixie's neighbours 'accept' them only because no one wants Pixie:
its a rock on the very edge of the Imperium with little of value.
The only real interested candidate would be General Shipyards ...
and they can't be  bothered.  In  fact,  General  might  actively
resist another world trying to claim Pixie.



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 02:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sun Jun 16 01:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <20020616071707.DA8A127A70@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020616013456.009eeb40@mailhost.efn.org>

>generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> > We have already intervened in African countries, and with their
> > added wars we're seeing the crash now.
> > The third world will go through the cycle, not the first worlders.
>
>I don't reckon the third world as a whole will go through such cycles,
>though.  Just some areas will starve here and there at different times
>-- though no less tragic for that.

Except, of course, that it's rarely as simple as the "surplus population" 
meekly deciding to lay down and starve.  What is much more likely is that 
the people with guns will take all the food for themselves, and then decide 
how (or if) to redistribute it.  When you have more than one faction with 
guns, you get a war, which ends the food crisis one way or another - either 
you now have enough food to feed your mouths, or you don't have as many mouths.

It's not pretty, or fair.  But then, nature rarely is.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 03:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V.I. Parviainen)
Date: Sun Jun 16 02:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Languages
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020615221024.01a61910@192.168.0.1>; from eclipse@urbin.net on Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 10:11:51PM -0400
References: <11f.122f2e1d.2a3d39d8@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020615221024.01a61910@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020616123639.A24958@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Sat, Jun 15, 2002 at 10:11:51PM -0400, Mark Urbin wrote:
> > >hindrance (if you don't speak them, or speak the wrong one!).
> >My experience in Sweden was that the locals would tolerate about 10 words of
> >my painfully-slow-syllable-by-syllable-right-out-of-the-guidebook attempt at
> >Swedish and switched to English after thanking me for at least trying. I was
> >guest at a gaming Convention, and most of the attendees spoke English to some
> >degree. Many people swarmed me because they wanted to learn American slang.
> >There are advantages to being the dumb-but-well-meaning-foreigner in some
> >places.
> 
> As one local explained it to me during my week in Stockholm, "We love to 
> travel. Nobody speaks Swedish."
> The kids working at McBurgers spoke English.

One strange thing I have noticed in Sweden is that Swedish people 
understand my Swedish, but the Finnish people there don't nearly as erll.

(There are a lot of young Finnish people in Stockholm, working in cafes
and such. We also get taught the other official language in school, 
so in principle ieverybody in Finland undestands both Swedish and Finnish.
Not that very many do, the Swedish speakers in Finnish speaking areas 
do best, they are (or everybody I know) bilingual usually..)

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 04:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun 16 03:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <20020616071706.1F4F427A72@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17JWpL-0007Xe-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

> generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> >  The studies pointed to population exceeding production of food for
> > the entire planet by 2020 "IF" extreme control measures were not
> > implemented.
> 
> In first-world countries, food production capability both per person
> and per unit land area has vastly increased over the last century or
> so.  If food ever actually started to become scarce, production could
> easily increase further without external intervention.  Higher food
> prices would make it worthwhile to farm land that currently produces
> next to nothing, and economical to employ farming techniques that are
> more productive but a bit more expensive per unit of produce.
> 
> Our current food production techniques could fairly easily accomodate
> a trebling of output over the next twenty years without any
> intervention at all.  That's a lot more than the population growth
> expected over the same period.  It also assumes no technological
> advances, and only minor price increases.  In first-world countries,
> there is also a lot of 'slack' in the system -- we eat far more than
> we need to, and more expensive types of food at that.

Also, looking and the various population predictions that have been 
made since the 1960s is quite worthwhile.  The notable thing is 
that the maximum world population and the predicted rate of 
population growth both keep being revised *downward*.  

Today, population growth is negative in most of the First World, the 
only big exception is the US, which has a slightly positive growth 
rate that would be almost 0 w/o immigration.  Spain and much of 
Northern Europe is under 1.6 children per woman (2.05 or so is 
replacement), and Japan is about 1.3.  Even in the Third World, the 
rate of population growth continues to diminish more rapidly than 
expected (AIDS is also helping this along, especially in Africa).  
The most recent figures I've seen suggest that the world population 
is expected to peak in around 2040 at around 10 billion and then 
decline.  I'm guessing that will also prove to be too high, since so 
far every decade proves that the previous decades growth rates 
were too high.

This is not to say that population isn't a big issue, widespread 
famines could happen in much of the world, environmental 
destruction could drive thousands of species to extinction, and 
some of the data I've recently read about over fishing and the state 
of the ocean is honestly terrifying.

*However*, if we can make it though the next 40 years, we'll be 
over the worst of it and we can hopefully get the world population 
down to a reasonable level (IMHO, about half what it is now).

We may screw the planet up in some serious ways, but if 
distribution is improved, there should be no problem in feeding 10 
billion people.

I'm also guessing that population A worlds are going to be very 
unlikely.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com       

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 04:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Jun 16 03:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo List...the entrants so far
References: <20020616071706.1F4F427A72@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000901c21522$d99531a0$d3b18b90@computer>

> From: Roseberry
> 1. Cougar class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
> 2. Valuta class Assault Landing Ship--John Kwon
> 3. DBZ class Heavy Attack Scout--Dan Roseberry
> 4. Cuda class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
> 5. Cobra class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
> 6. Carronade class Close Escort--Leslie Bates

All Naval ships.  No civilian ships yet.  Unfortunately my first one is
going to be "military", too.

I was thinking about exploratory trade when I came up with the concept of
mine.  What's really scary is that I found a set of stats in one of the old
decanonised Judges' Guild sectors that matched the concept.  All I have to
do is check them for accuracy(!!!), type them in, and then do the real work
of writing the blurb text. Maybe later tonight.

Anyway, we still need some civilian ships. "Bucket of bolts" lash-ups are
pretty obvious, and I'll produce at least one of those, and writing up
alternate descriptions for existing designs is another likely one (a
book-standard scout/courier is not necessarily a Suleiman, for example), and
then there are variants on other standard designs. All of those are kind of
nothing, though.  There has to be some kind of really stunning killer
concept out there. The various uses for yachts might be worth considering -
how much money could a casino ship make? - and then there's "Doc Whipsnade's
Travelling Solomani Biotech Show", but none of them really quite grab me. (I
mentioned the casino ship in preference to the other kind of vessels that
can be acquired in the mustering out process in Book 9 - Gratuitous Sex and
Violence).

I'll keep thinking, but my brain is booked out for the rest of the evening.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 04:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sun Jun 16 03:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS RE: Way OT
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17C60@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMELKHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Hughes, Michael wrote :
> It is interesting to note the analogy between your
> brand of French with a NYker in the UK. I admit
> that I have trouble  understanding our New Zealand
> brethren, who are even less in distance from us than
> France and Canada.
>
> They call eskies (or coolers) chilly-bins. And thongs
> (backless sandals) are Jandals.

These odd Australians!

That's "Chilli-Bin". It's a brand name, just as "Eskie" (short
for Eskimo) is.

"Coolers" are those sickly fruit juice and wine combinations that
yuppies yused to serve at parties.

Obviously, a "thong" is what you call a G-string when it's being
worn on the beach.
Or it's the thing you use to tie your partner to the rings in the
wall.
(It's also the noise an Australian's head makes when hit by a
jandal.)

And we only call _rubber_ backless sandals "Jandals". Again, it's
a brand name from back when Para-Rubber were the only suppliers
of these things in New Zealand.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 05:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun Jun 16 04:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Vargr Flexibility
Message-ID: <memo.290867@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020616030912.EF3FE27A2A@mail.travellercentral.com>
In a Traveller (CT) game many years ago, the GM's way of commenting that 
conditions were hot was to turn to me (playing a Vargr) and say, "You're 
panting a lot!"

While anatomical rearrangement to give Vargr an upright stance and proper 
hands would have been a priority for the Ancients, I doubt they bothered 
about minor details like where the Vargr had sweat glands. Ancients 
probably didn't sweat, and didn't even think about it :-)

I used to play a lot of Vargr, with a group who stuck to Human characters 
most of the time. There would be plenty of (usually good-natured) doggy 
jokes. Like I would be invited to 'curl up in a corner' rather than take a 
seat!

One of the best thought, was unintentional. We were fleeing in an air/raft 
under fire and the GM said, "They shot your tail." To great amusement, and 
without thinking about it, I yelped and clutched where my tail would have 
been had I really been a Vargr! Turned out it was the back end of the 
air/raft that had been hit, fortunately.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 06:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Jun 16 05:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] why does travel cost so much?
In-Reply-To: <F215X0qKtJr5G9KO33D0001f54f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D0D2B31.28198.600964@localhost>

On 14 Jun 2002 at 21:53, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> (1)  It used to be "NIMBY", Not In My Back Yard.  Now it's "BANANA",
> Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anybody.  They scream for more sewage 
> treatment plants to "Save The Bay", but no one wants one near them.  They 
> want recycling centers to save the enviroment, but no one wants one near 
> them.  More cops and firefighters, but no more stations.  More and tougher 
> criminal sentences, but no more prisons.  More electricity, but no more 
> powerplants.  More personal cars, but no more roads.  B-A-N-A-N-A.

We're still in the MINBY phase, mostly. My old home town of Palmerston 
North needs another bridge over the river, a new rubbish dump site and 
an enlarged sewage treatment plant, and (almost) everyone agrees that 
this is the case. They'll even agree that these facilities should be 
built or upgraded as soon as possible. However as soon as the city 
council starts actually planning for these things all hell breaks loose 
as the good residents look at the maps and realise that the new bridge 
will go off the end of _their_ street and mean more cars, a widened 
street, and so on.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 06:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Jun 16 05:30:02 2002
Subject: [Fwd: [TML] First Ever TML bar-room brawl] Was History question
Message-ID: <3D0D2D38.4983BE22@mindspring.com>

This is the first mention on an official brawl. I think it was just a
scuffle prior to Mr. Whipsnades instigation.

-------- Original Message --------
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: [TML] First Ever TML bar-room brawl
To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: "Andrew MacLintock" <a_maclintock@hotmail.com>

     "THEN my character thinks that other character is laughing at the
stain on my flight suit, and so he connects his fist to the characters
nose, 
sending him back against another character..."


Mr. MacLintock,

     The noise of the barstool breaking rouses my charecter from the
book 
he's reading, "Dulinor the Dragonrider of Pern meets Jack Ryan and Dirk 
Pitt".  He lifts his head to see a brawl beginning and reacts far more 
swiftly then an observer would think a grey headed fat man could.
     Reaching into his shabby, black, swallow tail dress coat, he tosses
a 
few Iphigenia One CrImp coins on the bar, tosses off the amount
remaining in 
his glass of Clampett Flu Serum (neat with water back), crams a rather 
battered boater on his pointy head, and begins to sidle towards the
door.
     Only a few steps from freedom, he trips over an unconscious figure 
bleeding from the nose and both ears.  Apparently the poor chap has been 
struck by any one of a number of articles of furniture now flying
about.  
After taking the fallen warrior's pulse and peeling back his eyelids to 
check for pupil dialation, my charecter assures himself that the fellow
is 
truly unconscious and thus will be unware of anything going on around
him.  
Or to him.
     My charecter then begins to go through the fallen fellow's pockets
with 
a skill born of long experience.  He speaks to himself in a low raspy 
mutter.
     "Hmmm, a cred-chip, Paulie-Bag-O-Doughnuts might pay for that... 
quite 
a bit loose change and folding money, that's mine...  a magkey to a room
in 
that flophouse down the corridor, interesting...  and another to a port 
storage cubicle, even better...  knife in a forearm sheath, no thank
you... 
a pocket body pistol, no thank you again...  any rings or bridgework, 
nope... let's see, naw, my shoes are better than his...  well, time to 
vamoose laddie!"
     Stowing his ill gotten booty in his coats pockets, my charecter
niumbly 
slides out of the door, straightens his hat, and waddles off
purposefully 
towards the aforementioned flophouse.  Hmmm, are those the whistles of
the 
constabulary in the distance?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen  (I wonder what this other key is for?)


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Jun 16 06:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo List...the entrants so far
Message-ID: <200206161316.IOR04841@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Alan Bradley" notes:
>Subject: Re: [TML] Rodeo List...the entrants so far  
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>
>> From: Roseberry
>> 1. Cougar class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
>> 2. Valuta class Assault Landing Ship--John Kwon
>> 3. DBZ class Heavy Attack Scout--Dan Roseberry
>> 4. Cuda class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
>> 5. Cobra class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
>> 6. Carronade class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
>
>All Naval ships.  No civilian ships yet.

The whole idea behind the Valuta class is that it's military 
surplus - and its maintenance is subsidized by the Navy for 
the first 40 years.

I've also posted another design, not military, the Chukkar.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 07:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Jun 16 06:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] YEE-HAW!  The Rodeo's FINE!
Message-ID: <F227W6xok7xShn3qtaJ0001e2f4@hotmail.com>

Fillies and Colts,

     Well, I'll tell you, out TML rodeo is off to one hum-dinger of a start! 
  We've got escorts, freight haulers, assault landers, and more!  If'n yer 
PCs are still jumping about in a BORING vessel, it ain't our fault!  
Woo-hoo! (random gunfire)
     Stick around, folks!  The TML Starship Stockmen's Association will be 
showing off the best of their herds until 15 July 2002!
     So, grab yer chaps, pack a lunch, hop aboard a painted cayuse, and 
gallop off into the tumbleweeds with the rest of us!  There's plenty more to 
see and plenty of time to see 'em in!  What's more, we want to see your's 
TOO!  So, hire some ship-punchers, load the chuck wagon, and drive the best 
of YOUR herd on up to the...

               GREAT TML UNBORING SHIP RODEO!

     Yee-haw!  (more random gunfire)


     See you there, pardner,
     Larsen E. "Gabby" Whipsnade

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 08:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sun Jun 16 07:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] YEE-HAW!  The Rodeo's FINE!
In-Reply-To: <F227W6xok7xShn3qtaJ0001e2f4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMELJHMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


Fillies and Colts,

     Well, I'll tell you, out TML rodeo is off to one hum-dinger of a start!
  We've got escorts, freight haulers, assault landers, and more!  If'n yer
PCs are still jumping about in a BORING vessel, it ain't our fault!
Woo-hoo! (random gunfire)
     Stick around, folks!  The TML Starship Stockmen's Association will be
showing off the best of their herds until 15 July 2002!
     So, grab yer chaps, pack a lunch, hop aboard a painted cayuse, and
gallop off into the tumbleweeds with the rest of us!  There's plenty more to
see and plenty of time to see 'em in!  What's more, we want to see your's
TOO!  So, hire some ship-punchers, load the chuck wagon, and drive the best
of YOUR herd on up to the...

               GREAT TML UNBORING SHIP RODEO!

     Yee-haw!  (more random gunfire)


     See you there, pardner,
     Larsen E. "Gabby" Whipsnade


Ahem

Dear Mr. Ramen

Regarding the recent refit you conducted on your ship
"The Spinward Schemp".  We have received a recall notice
on the WXT-34-D environmental unit.  In most cases, it
is almost certain that -- in all probability -- few if any
signs of bizarre psychological behavior should occur, we feel
you be alerted to this possibility.  In no case that
has come to light to date has anyone done anything harmful, it's
just that they may act and do strange things.

Admittedly, waking up to find that antennae have sprouted
from your head, may be considered by some to be trying
mentally, they do go away in time.

Merle says that a drop in 54-y unit in slot 15 should
do the trick.

Sincerely

Pa

Ma and Pa's Ship refitting and Kosher Deli


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 08:29:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Jun 16 07:29:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship Rodeo: Ferdinand Class Exploration Cruiser
Message-ID: <001901c21542$b1c68f00$155d8690@computer>

My first Ship Rodeo entry.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com

-----------------------------------------

Design System:  Book 2!!!

Ferdinand Class Exploration Cruiser (type EC)

Paragraph Description:
Using a 400 ton hull, the Ferdinand Class Exploration Cruiser is a lightly
armed survey and escort ship. It mounts jump drive E, maneuver drive J, and
power plant J, giving a performance of jump-2 and 4-G acceleration. Fuel
tankage for 200 tons supports the power plant and 2 jump-2. Adjacent to the
bridge is a computer Model/5. There are 12 staterooms. The ship has 4
hardpoints and 4 tons allocated to fire control. There is one ship's
vehicle: a Ship's Boat. Cargo capacity is 18 tons. The hull is streamlined.
The ship requires a crew of 10: Pilot, Navigator, Medic, 3 Engineers, 4
Gunners. The ship can carry 2 mission specialists. The first ship of the
class cost MCr 274.114 (including fees) and took 36 months to build.

Background Text:
Exploration is dangerous. Entering unknown systems for the first time
particularly so.

Early in the expansion of the Third Imperium, the IISS came to the
conclusion that they needed small but capable warships to escort their
scouting missions, and to spearhead their entry into unknown systems.  The
original ships of this type were variants of vessels in service with the
Imperial Navy, typically Destroyers, and smaller escorts of the "Patrol
Cruiser" type. These vessels served the Scout Service well, but were not
perfectly matched to their needs.

Compared to Naval vessels, Scout ships tended to avoid trouble, rather than
look for it. This meant that stealth and mobility, rather than firepower and
armour, were key factors in Scout ship design. Over the following centuries,
the Scouts introduced a series of lightly armed vessels with extended jump
performance. In particular, they tended to favour vessels capable of
multiple jumps, prefering not to enter an unknown system without possessing
the capacity for a quick withdrawal.

The Ferdinand is the end result of this line of development. Essentially, it
is a variation of the familiar Patrol Cruiser theme, trading off combat
capacity, and even some jump potential, for the capacity to perform 2 Jump-2
in succession.

Typically, Ferdinands operate in pairs, often as part of a larger task
force. This increases the chance that if one vessel is lost, the other will
escape to report on its fate. This is essential, as Ferdinands will often be
the very first vessels to enter a system, scouting ahead of full survey
teams, or will be assigned to patrol significant systems.

Each Ferdinand possesses a generous surplus of life support capacity,
allowing it to carry a double sized crew of mission specialists, if
required, or even to carry the crew of a crippled sister ship to safety.

Ferdinands can be found anywhere IISS ships can be found. In particular,
this includes the places where you wouldn't usually expect IISS ships to be
found, but where they are anyway.

Some examples of the ships can be found in other hands. Some planetary
navies, and Imperial client states have adopted the type, while a small
number have passed into civilian hands, serving in a commerce protection,
and sometimes commerce raiding, role.

Reputation:
Naval personnel tend to sneer at this design, pointing out the unimpressive
capabilities of its drives, its lack of armour, and its light armament. They
are correct, in that this is not an impressive fighting ship.

Scouts, on the other hand, have a different perspective. First of all, this
vessel is reliable, and if you are "spinward of the Zhodani, coreward of the
Vargr, trailing of the K'kree, or rimward of the Solomani", reliability is a
good thing. Furthermore, these ships rarely get into fights, nor are they
really intended to do so. These vessels are usually intended to run away and
tell someone what they ran into - the real function of the Scout service.

Roleplaying uses:
This is a lightly armed almost-warship. It is weak enough to hopefully not
unbalance a campaign, but spiffy enough to serve as a reward. Obviously, it
is particularly suitable for exploration games, but it can also be used by
mercs, ECMs, or even merchants engaged in exploratory trade. (Use this ship
to make contact, send in the cargo buckets when it's safe...)

Variants/alternatives:
After sketching out the concept, I started looking for existing vessels that
could serve in this role. There were several, since all I was really looking
for was a marginal combatant, capable of 2 J-2. The stats above are based on
a design in the old Judges' Guild Ley Sector, with various minor amendments
and corrections.

Other candidates included the good old Corsair, which has plenty of cargo
space that can be changed to Jump fuel, the Close Escort, and, of course,
the Kinunir!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 08:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Jun 16 07:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] rodeo entry: Moronica Sisters Type A1.7725
Message-ID: <3D0D4E5F.812E8C8C@mindspring.com>

The open frame, Moronica Sisters,  Type A1.7725 Merchant, known as the
"Skeletal pig", is an example of how not to design a merchant ship.
The first transmission after lift off of the fleet of ill fated ships
was the lead pilots plaintive, "O.K., how do we get down now?".

Due to the open frame construction, the vessel is unable to land on
worlds with an atmosphere or scoop fuel from gas giants
(The vessel also lacks landing gear and so cannot land on a vacuum
world). . The lack of an interface craft requires the starport to
provide transport for crew and cargo, and to supply fuel to orbit. A
purifier will process unrefined fuel in the tanks in 11 hours.
Collapsible tanks holding enough fuel for an additional Jump 1 take 7.25
hours to purify after being pumped to the working tanks.

Being doubled up into small staterooms on the cramped ship ensures that
the crew will require frequent R&R.

The weapons turrets are at the end of booms extending from opposite
sides of the main body. Poor dynamic design resulted in a
flexing of the booms during acceleration, causing targeting errors.
(This reduces the weapons factor by one if firing while underweigh)

Five  vessels were simultaneously built by the Moronica Sisters in 999,
squandering their family fortune, 3 remain in service
along the Spinward Main, the other 2 work the Dodd's cluster in Trins
Veil/SM.

Craft ID:       Type A1.7725 Merchant, TL 15, 44.684 Mcr, Quantity
discount 35.747 MCr

Hull:              69/173, Disp=177.25, Config=0Usl, Armour=40G,
Loaded=933.29, Unloaded=523.729

Power:          Primary 1/2, Fusion=342 Mw, Duration=30 days, Purifiers
11 hours
                     ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=32 days

Loco:            3/6, Jump=1, 3/6,  Maneuver=1G, Agility=0

Comm:          Radio=System x 1, Laser=System x 1

Sensors:        A-EMS (FrOb) x 1, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 1
                     Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=-  POP=-  PES=R
PEP=-

Off:               2 Hardpoints, 2 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Turrets:  3x missile      x 1 in 1 battery
                                      3x sand        x 1 in 1 battery
                        1 b/r=3 missiles
                        Combat Statistics:
                                           T       B    S
                             Missile    (3)2   -    -
                                             1
                             Sand      (4)3    -    -
                                             1

Def:               Def DM= 5

Control:         Computer=Model 4 x 3, Panels=Holographic Linked x 99,
HUD holo x 3

Accom:         Crew=4 ( Bridge=2 Engineering=1 Gunners=1),  Small
Staterooms=2
                     Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates,
inertial comp, Airlocks x 2

Other:           Cargo=384.4 Kl/28.5 tons, EMLevel=Faint, Fuel=358 Kl/27
tons, Collapsible tanks=236.25 Kl(11 tons cargo)
                    ObjSize=Average


Author: Alan Spik

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 09:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Jun 16 08:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs, and Fiefs (was: why does travel...)
Message-ID: <F90bpaz5Ph9Pnbtj3xF00021eae@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "We're still in the NIMBY phase, mostly. My old home town of Palmerston 
North needs another bridge over the river, a new rubbish dump site and an 
enlarged sewage treatment plant, and (almost) everyone agrees that this is 
the case."


Mr. Boleyn,

     If there is trouble over the location for the new bridge, just wait and 
see what will happen when the new rubbish tip gets sited.
     The state to Rogue Island's immediate north, The People's Republic of 
Taxachusetts, was trying to site a new state prison in the early '90s.  
While the voters were constantly supporting longer and mandatory sentences 
and gutting parole and rehabilitation programs, they also showed a marked 
aversion to actually BUILDING the new prisons their policies required.  Go 
figure.
     Then some bright light college student on a summer internship with the 
state pointed out a blindingly obvious location; a plot of land BETWEEN the 
north bound and south bound lanes of an interstate highway!
     The land already belonged to the state, the town in question couldn't 
interfere, and the NIMBYs could go pack sand.  Thus, Massachusett's newest 
medium security prison facility squats on an island of land between the 
traffic on I-95.  I throw it a friendly salute every time I motor past.

ObTrav - As one of the TML's leading lights pointed out last year, the Third 
Imperium is an association of governments, not citizens.  Some planetary 
governments might be susceptible to public pressure like that exerted by the 
NIMBYs and BANANAs, but, thanks to its nature, the Imperium would be far 
more insulated.
     That deosn't mean the Imperium doesn't need to gage public opinion, 
however.
     The Imperium needs to site starports, military bases, training ranges, 
prisons, wrecking yards, and hundreds of similar facilities.  The technology 
available to the Imperium they have many more locations available to them; 
moons, planetoid belts, etc.  Most Imperial facilities can easily be plunked 
down on any "worthless" hunk of rock; except for Imperial fiefs.  No 
Imperial baron is going to want 10 km^2 of ice-teroid (unless water is worth 
a bundle).  So how does the Imperium go about acquiring fiefs?  And what 
sort of restrictions, if any, do Imperial nobles have in developing their 
holdings?
     Could a baron with 10 km^2 of downtown Tokyo begin a plutonium storage 
business there?  Could a count with 1000 km^2 of rainforest clear cut it 
into one huge putting green?  Could a marquis with 100 km^2 of an off-world 
Yosemite put up the Sylea-Disneyland?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 09:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Jun 16 08:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020616013456.009eeb40@mailhost.efn.org>
References: <20020616071707.DA8A127A70@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020616113447.01ffdfe0@192.168.0.1>

At 01:40 AM 6/16/2002 -0700, Kelly St.Clair wrote:
[snip]
>Except, of course, that it's rarely as simple as the "surplus population" 
>meekly deciding to lay down and starve.  What is much more likely is that 
>the people with guns will take all the food for themselves, and then 
>decide how (or if) to redistribute it.  When you have more than one 
>faction with guns, you get a war, which ends the food crisis one way or 
>another - either you now have enough food to feed your mouths, or you 
>don't have as many mouths.
>It's not pretty, or fair.  But then, nature rarely is.

Hmmm...sounds like Somalia, where the remains of the Army where stealing UN 
supplied food off the docks.
After feeding themselves, they sold the rest for more weapons.

There's a Traveller adventure in there, including "GravSled Down."



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
The Taliban representative was explaining the good
the Taliban had done for the country. He started
his statement with "We have disarmed the people..."
-- CNN special "Inside Afghanistan"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 09:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Jun 16 08:45:02 2002
Subject: [Fwd: [TML] First Ever TML bar-room brawl] Was History
 question
In-Reply-To: <3D0D2D38.4983BE22@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020616114310.01ff9fc8@192.168.0.1>

At 08:28 PM 6/16/2002 -0400, alan spik wrote:
>This is the first mention on an official brawl. I think it was just a
>scuffle prior to Mr. Whipsnades instigation.
[snip]
Thanks, this is good fodder for the Ramen & Whipsnade webpages I'm putting 
together.
No date in that header though...


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Mort Sahl: General, aren't you supporting Castro by smoking that Havana cigar?
Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.
(from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 11:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Jun 16 10:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <20020615.223850.-191427.3.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20616.091004.2F3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> generalturokan@juno.com 
>> >  The studies pointed to population exceeding production of food for
>> > the entire planet by 2020 "IF" extreme control measures were not
>> > implemented.
>> 
>> Timothy Little wrote:
>> In short, you might get a boom/crash starvation cycle if you *do*
>> intervene, but not if you don't.
>
> I agree with you, and as my books are packed, the 2020 date may be 2050.
> Either way it was an "IF" study from the course.
>
> We have already intervened in African countries, and with their added
> wars we're seeing the crash now.  There are several African countries
> whose population factor is 9:1 (from the course) China's is 1:1, USA
> 1.8:1. The Latin countries with strong Catholic bonds have no birth
> control because of their beliefs.
>
> The third world will go through the cycle, not the first worlders.

An often overlooked fact that will make the crash worse is AIDS. It's
very widespread in places like Africa and India. And there's no way
these people are going to get diagnosed, much less treated. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 11:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Jun 16 10:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo Entry:  Makiidi class bulk trader
Message-ID: <3d0caea4.17029728@post.demon.co.uk>

In the year 35 the Shadow Emperor authorised new laws for the
regulation of commerce within the Ziru Sirka.  This marked the formal
beginning of the _makiidi_ or "ferry" system that would govern trade
within Vilani space for the next 2,000 years.

The heart of this system was the vast dispersed-structure ferry ships
built in the tens of thousands by the three Bureaux.  Each of these
was built around the Ziru Sirka's most precious secret: a Jump-Two
drive.  While Jump-One ships were plentiful in private ownership
within the Imperium, the only way they could cross the rifts between
clusters and mains was by hitching a ride in a state-owned Makiidi
ship.

The design of the Makiidi did not vary much in the 2,000 years it was
in production.  When unrest within the Imperium began to be a problem,
it was thought necessary to give the ships a light armament to ward
off pirates and rebels, along with a security detachment of marines.
However, since the ships operated between fixed bases which were
normally heavily defended, there was no need for greater changes.

In operation, a Makiidi was able to carry 25 400-ton R-Class ships and
150 200-ton A-Class ships, plus 2,587 tons of cargo.  The ship relied
on obtaining refined fuel from starports:  since they spent their
careers shuttling from one side of a rift to the other that was rarely
a problem.  Each makiidi normally operated according to a fixed
schedule, which became the foundation of patterns of trade in its
sector.

When the Terrans took over the Ziru Sirka, the makiidi system
crumbled.  Jump-two drives were no longer a state monopoly, allowing
private concerns to bypass the ferry system and cross the rifts
themselves.  Jump-three liners and fast traders owned by Terran
trading companies exploited the most profitable trade routes.  Under
these conditions, the Makiidi ships were seen as an expensive
liability, and the Rule of Man's regional governors set out to dispose
of them as quickly as possible.  Many were scrapped, but the majority
were privatised:  sold at knock-down prices to the highest bidder.

A variety of modifications were carried out to the Makiidi ships now
in private hands.  The most common was to remove most of the docking
facilities for starships, and replace these with welded-on fixed cargo
pods.   A typical modified Makiidi would replace 80% of its docking
facilities with cargo pods, giving 37,787 tons of cargo space.  It
could still carry 5 Type-Rs and 30 Type-As, although frequently some
of these would be replaced by fuel shuttles, as the ships would no
longer be operating from fixed bases.  A civilian Makiidi could also
carry 150 high passengers (or 300 middle), replacing the ship's troops
(slightly more if the ship's energy weapons were stripped out).

In this new role, the Makiidi won a new lease of life.  Its tremendous
carrying capacity made bulk transit of raw materials practical.  Many
less-habitable worlds would come to depend utterly on shipping
companies operating a Makiidi or two to transport vital supplies to
them;  and as the Long Night deepened keeping these ships operational
could become a matter of life or death.

In the time of the Third Imperium, there are still a handful of
Makiidi still working (although they tend to resemble the knife that's
had its handle replaced 5 times and its blade replaced 7 times).
Examples are also occasionally found abandoned;  and there have been
one or two attempts by the Vilani megacorporations to revive the
design.

_____________________________________________________

Construction Method: HG2
_____________________________________________________


Makiidi:  in government service.

AT-Q7212E3-090000-05000-0  MCr31,662.88  75,000 tons
Batt Bear   6      6                        Crew=3D308
Batt        8      8                           TL=3D11
Passengers=3D0  Low=3D0  Cargo=3D2,587  Fuel=3D16,500 =20
EP=3D1,500  Agility=3D0  Marines=3D300

Cost in volume=3D MCr25,330


Makiidi: typical merchant conversion.

AN-Q7212E3-090000-00000-0  MCr29,662.88  75,000 tons
Batt Bear   6                               Crew=3D292
Batt        8                                  TL=3D11
Passengers=3D158  Low=3D0  Cargo=3D38,187  Fuel=3D16,500 =20
EP=3D1,500  Agility=3D1  Marines=3D0

Cost new, in volume=3D MCr23,730
(Most were purchased for a ridiculously small fraction of this price
from the Terran authorities)
_____________________________________________________

Statistics (data for the merchant conversion is in brackets)

Tonnage:  	75,000 tons standard.  1,050,00 cubic metres.
Ship's Crew: 	308 (292):  command 38, engineering 83,=20
	gunnery 24 (8), flight 13, service 150.
Performance: 	Jump-2.  1-G. Power plant-2.  1,500 EP. Agility 0 (1).
Electronics: 	Model 5/fib computer with back-up Model 5.
Hardpoints: 	8 50-ton bays (used for cargo in merchant conversion),
80 hardpoints.
Armament: 	8 50-ton plasma gun bays. (none)
Defences:  	80 triple sandcaster turrets in 8 batteries.
Small Craft:  	4 100-ton utility craft.
	Capability to dock 25 (5) 400-ton and 150 (30) 200-ton ships.
=46uel Treatment:	None, dependent on local facilities.
Cargo:	2,587 (38,187) tons.
Cost:	MCr31,662.88 standard, MCr 25,330 in quantity. (n/a)
Construction Time:	50 months singly, 36 months in quantity.

_____________________________________________________

The merchant version of this ship costs MCr 5.88 per month to operate,
excluding finance, fuel and berthing costs.  If operating at full
capacity it can make revenue of MCr 40.72 per month.
(Using Book 2 data). =20

Standard mortgage financing would cost MCr 99 per month, so it's just
as well that any Makiidi likely to fall into the hands of PCs was paid
off a dozen centuries earlier, and the original construction would
have been financed by the Vilani Imperium, which presumably thought in
terms longer than a mere 40-year mortgage).



Stephen
www.stempest.demon.co.uk/traveller/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 12:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (P-O Bergstedt)
Date: Sun Jun 16 11:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine
Message-ID: <3D0CD4E2.EE7B5318@berka.com>

Hi TML!

Thanx for all support and nice comments.

I'd never thought this tool would be so popular.
So far over 2500 LBB Front-Covers have been generated.
It is my most popular webpage!

With so many LBB covers, I know You must have generated
some really good ones. Mail them to me, and I will set
up a LBB gallery for everyone to enjoy.

I have now implemented one request that I got.
One can now generate back covers.
http://zho.berka.com/goodies/lbb_back_render.html

Have fun!
  _____         _____   P-O Bergstedt
 /     \       /     \  Stockholm/SWEDEN
/ * A o \_____/       \_____
\   @   /     \       / Visit the Zhodani Base:
 \BERKA/       \_____/  http://zho.berka.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 12:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn wilson)
Date: Sun Jun 16 11:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
Message-ID: <F157lmRBaYFkuutSgcO000146bf@hotmail.com>

> > We have already intervened in African countries, and with their
> > added wars we're seeing the crash now.
>
>Yes, that came to mind after I sent my post.


Well, no, we aren't.  African countries aren't crashing.  They're 
populations are growing exactly as expected.  Modern science lowers 
mortality rates but birth rates remain high for a few decades after, causing 
rapid population growth.  Eventualy birth rates will fall an population 
growth will subside.


> > The third world will go through the cycle, not the first worlders.
>
>I don't reckon the third world as a whole will go through such cycles,
>though.  Just some areas will starve here and there at different times


Fallacy.  Famine is *not* an issue of population outstripping food 
production.  Famine, when it occurs, arises either from misallocation of 
resources or deliberate policy on the part of the people in power.


>-- though no less tragic for that.  As a whole, I expect a fairly
>steady state, with population growth slowing fairly smoothly.  I think
>we're in a transition stage at the moment, where a recent (in
>historical terms) surge in food production has triggered an alarming
>surge in population growth.  It won't last, one way or the other.


Well, no, it hasn't.  Medical science has lowered death rates, birth rates 
are slow to adjust, so there's a period of rapid population growth.  Food 
supply is irrelevant to the issue.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 12:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun 16 11:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine
Message-ID: <20020616.144901.-177063.0.Knightsky@juno.com>


On Sun, 16 Jun 2002 20:11:46 +0200 P-O Bergstedt <zho@berka.com> writes:

> With so many LBB covers, I know You must have generated
> some really good ones. Mail them to me, and I will set
> up a LBB gallery for everyone to enjoy.

Actually, I was going to suggest that people send their more creative LBB
covers to the list, so we all could enjoy.  Which means I guess I should
throw a few of my own out...

For Silly Referees
Adventure 68
Pigs In Space
Science-Fiction Adventure in the Muppet Zone

For (fnord)
Book 23
The Illuminati
Science-Fiction Adventure in the Conspiracy Zone

For Pissed-Off Referees
Double Adventure 7
The Droyne Strike Back/Return of the Ancients
Science-Fiction Adventure in Grandfather's Future

For Flame-War Veterans
Special Supplement 4
Pirates and Near C-Rocks
Science-Fiction Adventure in the Canon Future


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 12:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn wilson)
Date: Sun Jun 16 11:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship construction economics
Message-ID: <F63Q1qJp0AKrkGlsOfZ00021dfc@hotmail.com>

I found the following in a bok on real world ship merchant construction and 
I figured someone might find it useful-

Shipyard functions-

Hull Construction
Machinery
Outfitting


Ship Cost Breakdown, large tanker, US built (in order, materials, labor, 
overhead, profit as a % of final cost)

Steel Process:  14, 26, 18, 3
Outfitting:   4, 9, 6, 1
Hull Engineering:   2, 4, 3, <0.5
Machinery Installation:   4, 3, 3, <0.5


Japanese Ship Cost Breakdown (in order, steel materials, other related 
materials, personnel costs, general management costs, design costs, other 
expenses, as a % of total cost)

Large tanker:   21, 33, 29, 6, 4, 7
Medium Bulker:   17, 35, 30, 6, 6, 6
Small Bulker:   12, 35, 35, 6, 6, 6


Cost Components by Ship Type (steel, outfit, machinery, miscellaneous, by %)

Tanker-
material:  17, 16, 20, 2
labor:  8, 12, 3, 2
Overhead:  20% of total (no breakdown)

Cargo Ship-
material:   8, 21, 24, 2
labor:   5, 13, 3, 2
overhead:   22% of total

Destroyer-
material:   6, 18, 15, 1
labor:   4, 17, 5, 4
overhead:   30% of total


Delivey Times by Ship Type, in months (order > keel, keel > launch, launch > 
completion)

tanker (>55,000 tons):   6, 4, 14
bulker (<30,000 tons):   6, 4, 4
large liners:   3, 7, 3
missile destroyers:  12, 20, 25
Frigates:   8, 14, 20

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 13:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sun Jun 16 12:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020615133908.009ea270@mindspring.com>
References: <165.ec21064.2a3bef22@aol.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020615133908.009ea270@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <p04330102b9328cfc2e5e@[198.123.22.160]>

At 1:40 PM -0700 6/15/02, Douglas Berry wrote:
>OK, so who else has done Supplement/Adventure 69?
>
>I've done Supplement 69: Sex and the Single Vargr

Maybe everyone did a supplement 69.  I did a "The Nude Beaches of 
Rigel" supplement and replaces "For GMs Only" with "For Nudists Only".
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 13:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sun Jun 16 12:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick help needed!
In-Reply-To: <200206152331.QAA05037@molly.iii.com>
References: <200206152331.QAA05037@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b9328f49b8c3@[198.123.22.160]>

At 4:31 PM -0700 6/15/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>In addition, vibro adds 1d6 and gives an
>armor divisor of 5

Where is this?  It isn't in my copy of Ultra-tech (it does add 1d6 
but doesn't add an armor divisor).  I don't think Cyberpunk had 
anything different.

>; arguably a vibro weapon is an energy weapon

Under energy weapons it includes "powered melee weapons" so this is 
clearly applicable.

>, in which
>case it adds another +3 for +3 TLs.  We can convert Sw+1d+7(5) to Sw+3d(5),
>or 5d-1(5) with a ST of 13.

You are right that _7_ (not 8 as I remembered) points get turned into one dice.

When I did this weapon in may last post, I suggested that continued 
improvements in weapon quality would continue past TL 8.  I wouldn't 
have both so I would just, as Anthony did, have a Fine weapon with a 
+1 to damage for TL so at TL 10 you would have...
  +1d for the vibroblade, you already have fine quality and at the 
cost of vibroblade you might as well go with very fine (4x costs, net 
+2), and +2 for TL 10...

Great Axe; sw+3+1d+2+2= sw + 3d, $1400 (two handed, needs to be readied).
Hatchet; sw+1d+2+2= sw + 2d+1, $1160

A more expensive "superfine" version would be....
Great Axe; sw+3+1d+3+2= sw + 3d+1, $3000
Hatchet; sw+1d+3+2= sw + 2d+2, $1800
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 14:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sun Jun 16 13:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206151230300.26017-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <000001c21571$871dcc80$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
I think that "For Libertines Only -- Adventure 69, Polymorphously
Perverse" would count...
______________________________________________


What is a "Libertine"?  I noticed there's a Mylene Farmer song with that
title.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 14:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Jun 16 13:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <20616.091004.2F3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B9324375.5F558%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/16/02 10:10 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
>>> generalturokan@juno.com
>>>> The studies pointed to population exceeding production of food for
>>>> the entire planet by 2020 "IF" extreme control measures were not
>>>> implemented.

Not this hooey again.  Have you been reading Al Gore's book or something?
The doomsayers have been projecting the collapse for years.  Paul Erlich's
"Limits to Growth" is one of the worst examples of this, and I see people
quoting him all the time despite that fact that none of his predictions have
proved to be true or accurate. Quite the opposite.  Research Milton
Friedman's bet with Erlich.

If history is any guide, technology will rise to meet the challenge.

Please note that in recent history there has never been a famine that didn't
have politics as its cause.  We pay farmers not to grow food.  Even India
exports food.

If you are going to quote the rise in population growth, please also include
the rate for food production increase in the same post.



--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 14:33:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Jun 16 13:33:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <F157lmRBaYFkuutSgcO000146bf@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B93243CE.5F55B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/16/02 11:37 AM, Shawn wilson at lockean@hotmail.com wrote:

Thank you for introducing facts into this debate.


> Well, no, we aren't.  African countries aren't crashing.  They're
> populations are growing exactly as expected.  Modern science lowers
> mortality rates but birth rates remain high for a few decades after, caus=
ing
> rapid population growth.  Eventualy birth rates will fall an population
> growth will subside.
>=20
>=20
>>> The third world will go through the cycle, not the first worlders.
>>=20
>> I don't reckon the third world as a whole will go through such cycles,
>> though.  Just some areas will starve here and there at different times
>=20
>=20
> Fallacy.  Famine is *not* an issue of population outstripping food
> production.  Famine, when it occurs, arises either from misallocation of
> resources or deliberate policy on the part of the people in power.
>=20
>=20
>> -- though no less tragic for that.  As a whole, I expect a fairly
>> steady state, with population growth slowing fairly smoothly.  I think
>> we're in a transition stage at the moment, where a recent (in
>> historical terms) surge in food production has triggered an alarming
>> surge in population growth.  It won't last, one way or the other.
>=20
>=20
> Well, no, it hasn't.  Medical science has lowered death rates, birth rate=
s
> are slow to adjust, so there's a period of rapid population growth.  Food
> supply is irrelevant to the issue.
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the world=92s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>=20

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 14:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Jun 16 13:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] YEE-HAW!  The Rodeo's FINE!
Message-ID: <3D0CF81B.4C112314@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage>
>              GREAT TML UNBORING SHIP RODEO!
>              Yee-haw!  (more random gunfire)
>              See you there, pardner,

Larsen, you're having way to much fun with this ;)

Got a question for ya. We have a few entrants that have non starships
included with their starship design. Do we need to have them listed
seperatly? eg if a Type R sub merchant is put in do we list the sub
merchant as one entrant and the sub merchants launch as a separate
entrant?

Alan Bradley writes:
>All Naval ships.  No civilian ships yet.  Unfortunately my first one >is going to be "military", too.

I'll be posting my Mini-Me trader and a Seeker ship for the Rodeo--It's
part of my landgrab--Typical traffic around Arba. 

To John Kwon; I found the Chukkar! Sometimes I zip by these posts to
fast to see whats in some of them. My apologies for missing your
merchant.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 15:13:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Jun 16 14:13:29 2002
Subject: [Fwd: [TML] First Ever TML bar-room brawl] Was Historyquestion
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020616114310.01ff9fc8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3D0DA7F1.5F3B9366@mindspring.com>

Mark Urbin wrote:

> At 08:28 PM 6/16/2002 -0400, alan spik wrote:
> >This is the first mention on an official brawl. I think it was just a
> >scuffle prior to Mr. Whipsnades instigation.
> [snip]
> Thanks, this is good fodder for the Ramen & Whipsnade webpages I'm putting
> together.
> No date in that header though...
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
> Mort Sahl: General, aren't you supporting Castro by smoking that Havana cigar?
> Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.
> (from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

11/15/2001. Don't forget the holography. I loved "Road to Illelish" ;)


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The simplest act of surrealism is to walk out into the street,
gun in hand, and shoot at random.
           -Andr Breton



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 15:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Jun 16 14:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] YEE-HAW! The Rodeo's FINE!
Message-ID: <F93SxZXBjhHBS2wC1Hh000214e5@hotmail.com>

From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>

     "Larsen, you're having way to much fun with this ;)"

Dan, ol' pardner,

     You betcha, buckaroo! (additional random gunfire)

     "Got a question for ya. We have a few entrants that have non starships 
included with their starship design. Do we need to have them listed 
seperately?"

     How 'bout handling them like this?  If they were designed as small 
craft for another vessel or meant to be small craft for a submitted vessel, 
then we'll keep 'em with their mare.  If they're a stand-alone design, like 
my upcoming Belt Packet, we'll brand 'em and put 'em all in the same corral? 
  Sabe, pardner?
     Horses, longhorns, heifers, pintos, sawbacks, run 'em all as one big 
herd for now.  If'n we get enuff entries, why then we'll cut different types 
out of the main herd and corral 'em seperate.  YIPPEE-KIIII-YIIIII-OHHHH!  
(spitting at cuspidor)

     "I'll be posting my Mini-Me trader and a Seeker ship for the 
Rodeo--It's part of my landgrab--Typical traffic around Arba."

     Sounds right good, "Colla-rada".  The Mini-Me especially, a trader for 
a small party of PCs that can hump more cargo than a Suleiman would be a 
GM's godsend.  (slaps knee as dust billows off him)
     See you 'round the chuckwagon, pal!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen, (waddling off into the purple sage)

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 15:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Nick)
Date: Sun Jun 16 14:34:05 2002
Subject: [TML] =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Rodeo_Entry:=A0_The_Shambieau_=28Type_A_varrent=29?=
Message-ID: <01c2157e$4802c980$LocalHost@default>

Here is a ship done to originally book 2  with book 5 addons. This has been
kicking around MTU for about 20 years of real time now. somewhere I have a
listing of what is in the ships Locker and may post it if I find it. This
was based on the Solar Queen from the Andre Norton stories and my dislike of
the deck plans from snapshot.

                                                The Shambieau.

Free Trader : Using a 200-ton hull, the Shambieau  is a customised version
of the standard type A Free Trader. She has been built using a non-standard
hull configuration and has since been modified during her career. She was
launched in 995 from Ascension/Bolivar/Dagudashaag (0639)
 It mounts jump drive A, manoeuvre drive A and originally had a power plant
A, however the power plant has been removed and replaced by a tech level 15
power plant about 10 years ago. The Shambieau now has a performance of jump
1 and 1G acceleration. The replacement of the power plant has increased the
amount of space in engineering due to the small size of the new power plant.
A half ton space accessible via a removable floor plate behind the power
plant is known only to the engineer and is occasionally used to hid items
illegally carried on the Shambieau.
 Fuel tankage for 30 tons supports the power plant and one jump one.
Installed in the Cargo hold are collapsible Fuel tankage for an additional
30 tons of fuel, which when collapsed take up two tons of space, and 30 tons
when full, which allow an additional jump one to be performed without
refuelling.
 Adjacent to the bridge is a computer Model one.
 There are ten staterooms and originally twenty low berths were installed,
however half of these have been removed leaving a five ton space which is
now used as a secure vault for valuable Cargos.
 The Shambieau has two hardpoints and  two tons allocated for fire control.
Installed on the hardpoints are two triple turrets: each carries one laser,
and two  Sandcasters.
 There is one Ship&#8217;s vehicle: a Wheeled ATV This is carried in the cargo
hold and uses up 10 tons of space. The ATV and launch and recovery equipment
where added about 80 years ago however  the ATV has been replaced several
times as damage and hard use have taken their toll.
 Cargo capacity was originally 82 tons this has been reduced by twelve tons
due to the ATV and collapsible fuel tankage, however a five ton vault for
valuables has been added by the removal of ten low berths. This gives the
Shambieau a current cargo capacity of 75 tons or 47 tons with the
collapsible fuel tanks full.
 The Shambieau  is a streamlined needle configuration and may land on most
earth like worlds.
 The Shambieau requires a crew of four: Pilot, Engineer,  Medic, and
Steward. Up to two gunners and an ATV driver may be added. The ship can
carry six high or middle passengers and ten low passengers. At some time in
the past the Shambieau has had a mail delivery contract however this has not
been renewed recently.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 15:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Jun 16 14:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CHAUCHAT Prototype Close Escort
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020615225753.009dc100@minn.net>
References: <3D0C0728.752B349@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020616163456.009d7370@minn.net>


This is another escort. I originally intended to only do the mutiny-prone
precursor to the GAZELLE class, but this project continues to grow on me.
More ships will be posted as I get around to it.

The following is excerpted from MERCHANTS AND PATROL SHIPS OF THE THIRD
IMPERIUM:


CHAUCHAT Close Escort, CE-14 (LSP prototype-B)

CE-14 (LSP prototype-B) CHAUCHAT CE-4144551-400000-45100-0 MCr 349.468  400
tons
                     batteries bearing             221             Crew=12
                               batteries           221             TL=14
Passengers=0. Low=0. Cargo=4. Fuel=183. EP=20. Agility=0. Marines=0

Tonnage:            	400 tons (standard), 5600 cubic meters.
Crew:               	4 officers, 8 ratings
Performance:        	Jump 4, 4-G, Power Plant 5, 20 EP, Agility 0.
Electronics:        	Model/5 computer.
Hardpoints:         	4 hardpoints.
Armament:           	One twin fusion gun turret (factor 5x2), One particle
accelerator barbette (factor 1), Two triple beam laser turrets (factor 4x2).
Defenses:           	Armored hull (factor 4)
Craft:             	20-ton gig.
Fuel:              	184 tons, on board scoops and purification plant.
Cost:              	MCr 349.468 standard.
Const. Time:        	16 months.
Comments:      	CHAUCHAT (named after a light machine gun used by one of
the nations on the winning side of the First Terran World War) was a single
prototype of a particle accelerator armed close escort built by Ling
Standard Products at the request of the Imperial Navy as a possible
alternative to the CARRONADE, GAZELLE, and FIERY classes.  The CHAUCHAT
class was ultimately rejected for series production and the single
prototype was sold to a small family owned weapons research firm (that we
dare not name) for use as a weapons and power plant test bed. CHAUCHAT was
last seen under the command of one of the younger female members of the
owning family.  If anyone sights the CHAUCHAT, they are to please notify
the Imperial authorities, as they are becoming very, very, very worried.

Armed Gig (Imperial Data Package-TL13/14 design).

GG (IDP13/14)    EB-0106B21-000000-20000-0 MCr 27.65 20 tons
 Agility=6       one battery               Crew=1. TL=13/14
Passengers=7..Emergency Low Berths=3 (for 12). Cargo=2. Fuel=2.2. 

Tonnage:            	20 tons (standard), 280 cubic meters.
Crew:               	Pilot
Performance:        	6-G, Power Plant , 2.2 EP, Agility 6.
Electronics:      	Model/2 Computer.
Armament:           	Beam laser (factor 2).
Defenses:           	n/a
Fuel:              	2.2 tons, on board scoops.
Cost:               	MCr 27.65
Const. Time:        	24 weeks individually, 19 weeks and 2 days in quantity
Comments:      	Standard unit designed by the Imperial Bureau of Naval
Construction and adopted for use on the COBRA, CARRONADE, GAZELLE, and
FIERY classes of escorts. 
     One of these standard gigs was carried on the CHAUCHAT.


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 15:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Jun 16 14:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] YEE-HAW!  The Rodeo's FINE!
In-Reply-To: <3D0CF81B.4C112314@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020616164026.009dab90@minn.net>

At 03:42 PM 6/16/2002 -0500, Dan Roseberry wrote:
><snippage>
>>              GREAT TML UNBORING SHIP RODEO!
>>              Yee-haw!  (more random gunfire)
>>              See you there, pardner,
>
>Larsen, you're having way to much fun with this ;)
>
>Got a question for ya. We have a few entrants that have non starships
>included with their starship design. Do we need to have them listed
>seperatly? eg if a Type R sub merchant is put in do we list the sub
>merchant as one entrant and the sub merchants launch as a separate
>entrant?

The rule should be (if I may so suggest) only when using a non-standard
small craft. As with the entries for the COUGAR and CUDA classes of escorts.


Les
 
=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 15:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Jun 16 14:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <F157lmRBaYFkuutSgcO000146bf@hotmail.com>
References: <F157lmRBaYFkuutSgcO000146bf@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3n0tu7vgx.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Shawn wilson" <lockean@hotmail.com> writes:
> 
> Famine is *not* an issue of population outstripping food production.
> Famine, when it occurs, arises either from misallocation of
> resources or deliberate policy on the part of the people in power.

Theoretically, one could have a famine occur if production ceases
(say, due to a bad year).  I cannot recall that happening in recent
history.  Every single famine in recent history _has_ been purely the
product of political forces.

ObTrav: easy enough.  See all those high-pop worlds?  The ones without
agriculture?  The ones which rely on shipping for food?  Imagine the
effects of a blockade.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another,
'What!  You too?  I thought I was the only one!'
                                   --C.S. Lewis

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 16:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Jun 16 15:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <E17JWpL-0007Xe-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <20020616071706.1F4F427A72@mail.travellercentral.com> <E17JWpL-0007Xe-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020617081603.B16220@freeman.little-possums.net>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> I'm also guessing that population A worlds are going to be very
> unlikely.

Pop-A systems with less than TL9 probably are.  Above that tech level,
the sky's not even the limit.

We 'know' that maintaining a high-tech industrial base takes a lot of
people.  Offworld trading adds a lot of cost, as we've recently seen
very unfavourably compared to modern-day shipping.  So why isn't there
more pressure to expand local production to meet local demands?  Per
capita, the costs are not high at all.  Even less so when compared
with the much higher productivity of a high-tech society.  Triply so
when compared with the glacial rates of return on shipping and other
interstellar activities.

I'd actually expect *more* pop-A systems, not less.  A TL10
civilization could probably economically (and ecologically) support
pop-B on a single world, and some ridiculously larger number of people
in spacious orbital habitats engaged in further economic activity.

Just one-tenth of Earth's asteroids and icy bodies with only GTL9
would sustainably support more than ten trillion people in O'Neill
style colonies with average population densities not much higher than
Tasmania.  That's pop code *D* for the system.  The costs of
construction and maintenance (including air and water, of course)
would also be comparable to average rural land prices and taxes here.

It cannot be said too many times -- the things you could do with the
technology available to Traveller societies are *incredible*.  In many
ways it's a shame that the official setting takes advantage of such a
pittance.  Mainly bigger guns and faster 'cars'.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 17:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun Jun 16 16:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU setting
In-Reply-To: <20020616145212.BB66A27A84@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206170041290.32307-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Peter Trevor writes:

>Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wroe:
>>Well, right there is the big problem I have with Pixie and similar
>>systems. To me "I can't come up with an explanation that my players
>>would accept as reasonable" is just a long-winded way of saying
>>"it's broken" (with the corrolary "and ought to be fixed").
>
>I didn't actually say that.

No, *I'm* saying that.

>- The Naval base is there partly to study an Ancient site (its an
>  unannounced  Imperial  Research  Station),

That part at least works, although I'm not too fond of dragging the
Ancients in to explain every oddity in the TU. But at least there is
canonical backing for it.

>  ... partly  to  control piracy in the coreward end of the subsector
>  (both  the  Menorb and Kinorb clusters),

That part requires an explanation of exactly what a naval base in the
Pixie system can do to control piracy.

>  ..and partly to  protect  the  shipyard  (a major corporate shipyard is
>  an Imperial economic asset and the shipyard probably builds military
>  vessels too).

Since I don't believe there is much justificatiuon for the shipyard in the
first place, I'm not impressed with that part.

> - The starport is small but gets a class  A  rating  due  to  the
>   presence of the shipbuilding facility.

Well, yes. That's one of the things required for a class A rating.

> - The shipyard is there because General wanted a location in  the
>   subsector and the lack of a proper government on Pixie means no
>   local taxation and no local labour laws.

And no local labor, no local food, no local sub-components, no local
support services. In short, everything has to be imported, which will tend
to eat up any tax savings to put it mildly.

> - The x-boat link was routed through Pixie (instead of just going
>   straight to the Kinorb cluster) to service both the  shipyard's
>   high volume of corporate mail to/from head office, and all  the
>   contract workers' correspondance.

Just how big a place do you imagine this shipyard is? Corporate mail would
be up to General Shipyards to handle, and I don't see it taking many ships.

>   All the workers are contractors (or naval staff) and thus weren't
>   counted by the IGS as Pixie residents (they're residents of other
>   places).  Only the 90 miners want to  stay,  so  only  they  were
>   counted by the IGS.

Why would 90 miners want to stay in Pixie any more than anyone else?
There's not enough of them to make up a stable community.

>>Even granted that 60 people were capable of forming a
>>self-sustaining society (which I'm not really willing to), what
>>makes Pixie's neighboring governments willing to accept them as
>>a soveriegn people?
>
>We  could  be  talking  several  family  operations  passed  down
>parent-to-child at least once by 1065 (IGS2 publication date) and
>a few geneations since, there is no government structure as such.

I don't believe the data in _The Spinward Marches_ and other, later
publications is from 1065. I believe it is from the date the various books
are set in.

>Pixie's neighbours 'accept' them only because no one wants Pixie:
>its a rock on the very edge of the Imperium with little of value.

Then why put a naval base and a shipyard on it?

>The only real interested candidate would be General Shipyards ...
>and they can't be bothered. In fact, General might actively
>resist another world trying to claim Pixie.

If General really ran a shipyard on Pixie, they would have a far better
claim to owning the place than the miners. And just running the shipyard
would be all it took to make up a de facto Type 6 government.



Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 17:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Jun 16 16:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <m3n0tu7vgx.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <F157lmRBaYFkuutSgcO000146bf@hotmail.com> <m3n0tu7vgx.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020617090308.A16385@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> ObTrav: easy enough.  See all those high-pop worlds?  The ones
> without agriculture?  The ones which rely on shipping for food?
> Imagine the effects of a blockade.

Living on a "Na" world must be a nightmare.  Food must cost a fortune
due to shipping costs on top of the production, distribution, duties,
and various middleman costs.  Interstellar shipping is *expensive*.  I
can't see how it would be more cost-effective to ship in food than to
produce it locally given the known rules for freight costs.

Some such worlds are pretty much inexplicable.  Louzy, for example, is
a non-agricultural world with a population of ten billion.  It has a
WTN of 4.5, and total trade volume of about ten billion credits per
*year*.  If it relied on external trade for food, it would need more
like ten billion credits worth of food per *day* -- and even that
would be only 1 credit worth of food per person.

That's a *lot* of starving people.  Or another example of trade rules
not matching the setting.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 17:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun Jun 16 16:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs, and Fiefs (was: why does travel...)
In-Reply-To: <F90bpaz5Ph9Pnbtj3xF00021eae@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020616232712.70371.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>

Speaking of "why does travel cost so much", I don't
understand why Hydrogen ,in the Traveller Universe,in
the far future costs 500 credits per ton! We're
talking real money to refuel a scout ship! Is skimming
a gas giant or sumping from an ocean such a big a deal
that people would rather pay than bother? Or am I just
missing something?

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 17:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Jun 16 16:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick help needed!
Message-ID: <200206162340.QAA01268@molly.iii.com>

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> writes:

>At 4:31 PM -0700 6/15/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>>In addition, vibro adds 1d6 and gives an
>>armor divisor of 5
>
>Where is this?  It isn't in my copy of Ultra-tech (it does add 1d6 
>but doesn't add an armor divisor).  I don't think Cyberpunk had 
>anything different.

Under vibroblade in my copy of Ultratech?  'Armor protects with 1/5 it's
normal DR'.  It's not clearly written, but it's there.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 17:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Sun Jun 16 16:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <20020617090308.A16385@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206170140590.237306-100000@svati>

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Timothy Little wrote:

>Living on a "Na" world must be a nightmare.  Food must cost a fortune
>due to shipping costs on top of the production, distribution, duties,
>and various middleman costs.  Interstellar shipping is *expensive*.  I
>can't see how it would be more cost-effective to ship in food than to
>produce it locally given the known rules for freight costs.
>
>Some such worlds are pretty much inexplicable.  Louzy, for example, is
>a non-agricultural world with a population of ten billion.  It has a
>WTN of 4.5, and total trade volume of about ten billion credits per
>*year*.  If it relied on external trade for food, it would need more
>like ten billion credits worth of food per *day* -- and even that
>would be only 1 credit worth of food per person.
>
>That's a *lot* of starving people.  Or another example of trade rules
>not matching the setting.

Does non-agricultural actually mean that they are not able to make
food. They could have a large stock of animals to hunt or fish to
catch. They may be living of some type of algae farms. Maybe they
have enough "slush" to feed themselves, but dream of "real" food
every darn day.

Mind you I don't know the UWP of Louzy, so none of these things may apply.

Tommy Grav



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 17:46:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Sun Jun 16 16:46:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick help needed!
In-Reply-To: <200206152331.QAA05037@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206170144090.237306-100000@svati>

On Sat, 15 Jun 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:

>>OK, I need one thing done *quickly*
>>
>>GURPS stats for a TL 11, 10 lbs. vibro blade axe.
>
>Hm...assuming that's a great axe, the base damage is Sw+3 with a reach of 2
>and a min ST of 13, but because it's a TL 7+ weapon it's 'fine' quality for
>free, increasing damage to Sw+4.  In addition, vibro adds 1d6 and gives an
>armor divisor of 5; arguably a vibro weapon is an energy weapon, in which
>case it adds another +3 for +3 TLs.  We can convert Sw+1d+7(5) to Sw+3d(5),
>or 5d-1(5) with a ST of 13.

Can someone explain what the (5) in the 5d-1(5) damage means. I looked in the
basic set, but wasn't abel to find anything.

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 18:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Jun 16 17:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs, and Fiefs (was: why does travel...)
In-Reply-To: <F90bpaz5Ph9Pnbtj3xF00021eae@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D0DD096.21157.A24DC8@localhost>

On 16 Jun 2002 at 15:28, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> Mr. Boleyn,
> 
>      If there is trouble over the location for the new bridge, just wait and 
> see what will happen when the new rubbish tip gets sited.

Oh, I know it well. They haven't even started seriously planning for 
one and there's already a bunch of people screaming - they've worked 
out that one of the likely sites is within a mile of their suburb, so 
they're trying to make sure it never even gets into the preliminary 
site selections.

>      The state to Rogue Island's immediate north, The People's
> Republic of Taxachusetts, was trying to site a new state prison in
> the early '90s.  While the voters were constantly supporting longer
> and mandatory sentences and gutting parole and rehabilitation
> programs, they also showed a marked aversion to actually BUILDING
> the new prisons their policies required.  Go figure. 
>
>      Then some bright light college student on a summer internship with the 
> state pointed out a blindingly obvious location; a plot of land BETWEEN the 
> north bound and south bound lanes of an interstate highway!
>      The land already belonged to the state, the town in question couldn't 
> interfere, and the NIMBYs could go pack sand.  Thus, Massachusett's newest 
> medium security prison facility squats on an island of land between the 
> traffic on I-95.  I throw it a friendly salute every time I motor past.

That's brilliant. 
 
> ObTrav - As one of the TML's leading lights pointed out last year,
> the Third Imperium is an association of governments, not citizens. 
> Some planetary governments might be susceptible to public pressure
> like that exerted by the NIMBYs and BANANAs, but, thanks to its
> nature, the Imperium would be far more insulated. 

It'd be suscepible to that sort of pressure from its nobles, though. 
However this could well be more the other way round - like congressmen 
in the US they'll be trying to attract anything that might make money, 
employ their citizens and so on. Afterall as long as it's not sited on 
their vacation planet why should they care how polluting, unsavory or 
downright poisonous a new facility is?

>      That deosn't mean the Imperium doesn't need to gage public
> opinion, however. 

> The Imperium needs to site starports, military bases, training
> ranges, prisons, wrecking yards, and hundreds of similar facilities.
> The technology available to the Imperium they have many more
> locations available to them; moons, planetoid belts, etc.  Most
> Imperial facilities can easily be plunked down on any "worthless"
> hunk of rock; except for Imperial fiefs.  No Imperial baron is going
> to want 10 km^2 of ice-teroid (unless water is worth a bundle).  So
> how does the Imperium go about acquiring fiefs? And what sort of
> restrictions, if any, do Imperial nobles have in developing their
> holdings?  

>      Could a baron with 10 km^2 of downtown Tokyo begin a plutonium
> storage business there?  Could a count with 1000 km^2 of rainforest
> clear cut it into one huge putting green?  Could a marquis with 100
> km^2 of an off-world Yosemite put up the Sylea-Disneyland? 

I don't see why not. Afterall if they turned down-twon Toko into a 
radioactive waste storage facility they'd have to charge a small 
firtune per diem per kilogramme to make more money than they'd have 
made from normal rentals. If they want to destroy their fief's value 
that's their affair. Of course should they do that they'll probably not 
be granted another fief, ever. Nor will they be getting job offers from 
megacorps, etc.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 18:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun 16 17:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A new Company: Window Estates
Message-ID: <3D0CE322.31462.1245E1B@localhost>

UCP Window Estates
Rhylanor Spinward Marches 
IA-3414-25-LL-SE-4744-55

Specialized in high class hotels on vacuum world, =93Window Estates 
where every client is a breath of fresh air=94

Founded in 1098 Window Estates has grown from a single hotel on  
Rhylanor to one of the Spinward Marches most renowned chain of 
hotels.  The company only locates its pre-designed hotels on vacuum 
worlds.  As one can surmise the name Window Estates, comes from the 
fact that the outer shell of the building is made entirely of high impact 
glass so that a visitor can look out at the world.  This has proven to 
relieve much of the stress that occurs in most people on vacuumed 
worlds.   

The current CEO of this Private Limited Liability Company is a Vargr, 
Illeno Chew, his appointment to the position met much resistance.  Many 
on the board felt that a Vargr would destroy the high-class reputation of 
the company.  But Chew has proven his worth, taking his experience as a 
vacuum engineering and amazing high taste  applying them to the 
creation of more designs suitable for different vacuumed cities.  These 
new designs have increased profitability by 10% and won over all but 
the most traditional board members. 

The company is well liked by those who frequently visit vacuum worlds.  
But this reputation does not come cheap the company is constantly 
researching better, and safer designs for its hotels.  The threats of 
accidental breaching of the self contain environments forces clients to 
put up with high security.   The employees of Window Estates all 
understand the reputation of the hotels and work hard to portray the 
sharp, crisp image of a well-oiled machine.  

GM notes

They are located through out the Spinward Marches.  However, they 
only locate in systems where there is both a naval and scout base.  They 
have found that this insures enough visitors to keep the hotel running 
low in the black.  

Room rents  
1 person 50 crs a night
2 person 125 crs a night
Suit 150 a night
Presidential /honeymoon suit 225 crs a night
Penthouse 300 crs a night
Corporate office 345 crs a night

All hotels come with a dinning hall, bar, small mall, conference rooms, a 
dance club, Office, maintenance room, security, washroom, maids office 
and facility maintenance.  Some hotels have limousine service. 

Plots:
Well the first one that comes to mind is surving a major breach can we 
say towering inferno.  
Then there is battle of the board for control maybe resistance will rise 
against Chow
One can also play a security officer protecting the hotel
Great place to force players to spend credits.  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 18:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Jun 16 17:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Roseberry Rodeo entry#2
Message-ID: <3D0D299D.2167D104@mail.cswnet.com>

Eneri Oldendorf tramp trader

A2.73-26212R1-040000-00002-0 Mcr126.802 273dt
one battery			TL11
Cargo=104.910 Fuel=60.060 EP=5.46 Agility=1
Crew=6 [Pilot, Navigator, Engineer, Medic,
2 Gunners]
Passengers=4 [middle passengers only]
Craft=2x4dt air/raft
Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification Plant

Architects Fee Mcr1.256
Cost in Quantity Mcr101.682

Constructed at Adabbici shipyard, this ship can be found plying the
backwaters of the Lunion subsector.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 18:19:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Jun 16 17:19:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick help needed!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206170144090.237306-100000@svati>
References: <200206152331.QAA05037@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020616171727.009f5d90@mindspring.com>

At 01:45 AM 6/17/02 +0200, you wrote:

>Can someone explain what the (5) in the 5d-1(5) damage means. I looked in the
>basic set, but wasn't abel to find anything.

Armor divisor.  When the vibroblade is turned on, armor protects with 1/5 
normal DR.

Getting hit with one of these things is *bad*


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 18:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Jun 16 17:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <B9324375.5F558%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20616.091004.2F3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3D0DD4BC.4505.B28416@localhost>

On 16 Jun 2002 at 13:30, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Not this hooey again.  Have you been reading Al Gore's book or
> something? The doomsayers have been projecting the collapse for
> years.  Paul Erlich's "Limits to Growth" is one of the worst examples
> of this, and I see people quoting him all the time despite that fact
> that none of his predictions have proved to be true or accurate.
> Quite the opposite.  Research Milton Friedman's bet with Erlich. 
> 
> If history is any guide, technology will rise to meet the challenge.

Even if it doesn't everything's fine until every available source of 
food is being exploited at maximum efficiency (in terms of output per 
unit, not cost-efficiency) and the population rises still further or 
the resource exploitation is unsustainable.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 18:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Jun 16 17:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <20020617081603.B16220@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <E17JWpL-0007Xe-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3D0DD4BC.15008.B2834E@localhost>

On 17 Jun 2002 at 8:16, Timothy Little wrote:

> It cannot be said too many times -- the things you could do with the
> technology available to Traveller societies are *incredible*.  In many
> ways it's a shame that the official setting takes advantage of such a
> pittance.  Mainly bigger guns and faster 'cars'.

My GT campaign is currently set in the Spinward Marches, and the PCs 
travelled to Rhylanor last session. I think I wasted about 5-10 minutes 
describing the amazing high-tech towers, orbital habitats and so on. I 
says wasted because the first thing anyone said when I ran out of 
breath was "so where are the high-tech gun shops at?" Sometimes I think 
that maybe I should just give up and go back to running D&D. <sigh>

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 18:27:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Sun Jun 16 17:27:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick help needed!
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020616171727.009f5d90@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206170223350.240416-100000@svati>

On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:

>At 01:45 AM 6/17/02 +0200, you wrote:
>
>>Can someone explain what the (5) in the 5d-1(5) damage means. I looked in the
>>basic set, but wasn't abel to find anything.
>
>Armor divisor.  When the vibroblade is turned on, armor protects with 1/5
>normal DR.

That was my guess, but it is always nice to know :-)

>Getting hit with one of these things is *bad*

That is true :-)

>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 18:29:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Jun 16 17:29:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick help needed!
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020616171727.009f5d90@mindspring.com>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206170144090.237306-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <3D0DD5B8.23485.B65B06@localhost>

On 16 Jun 2002 at 17:19, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 01:45 AM 6/17/02 +0200, you wrote:
> 
> >Can someone explain what the (5) in the 5d-1(5) damage means. I looked in the
> >basic set, but wasn't abel to find anything.
> 
> Armor divisor.  When the vibroblade is turned on, armor protects with 1/5 
> normal DR.
> 
> Getting hit with one of these things is *bad*

One of my players recently invested in some hyperdense cutlery. It's 
even worse, and I'm anticipating great entertainment when he starts 
swinging it round inside a starship. I figure a sword doing 4d(10) 
should make quite a mess of your average Far Trader's bridge controls 
when you miss your opponent (or it goes right through and keeps on 
going).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 18:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Jun 16 17:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs, and Fiefs (was: why does travel...)
In-Reply-To: <F90bpaz5Ph9Pnbtj3xF00021eae@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020617003725.105B6279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/16/02 at 03:28 PM,  "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> said:

>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

>     "We're still in the NIMBY phase, mostly. My old home town of
>Palmerston  North needs another bridge over the river, a new rubbish
>dump site and an  enlarged sewage treatment plant, and (almost)
>everyone agrees that this is  the case."

>     If there is trouble over the location for the new bridge, just
>wait and  see what will happen when the new rubbish tip gets sited.
>     The state to Rogue Island's immediate north, The People's
>Republic of  Taxachusetts, was trying to site a new state prison in
>the early '90s.   While the voters were constantly supporting longer
>and mandatory sentences  and gutting parole and rehabilitation
>programs, they also showed a marked  aversion to actually BUILDING
>the new prisons their policies required.  Go  figure.

And I'd like to point out that not all communities have the same
aversions. The county I live in *competed* for, and won, a medium
security prison that is sited next to the new county jail. We weren't
filling our county jail so we contracted with three neighboring
counties to take their overflow. When the state wanted to build a new
maximum security facility we actively went after, and won, that one
too, siting it in the north end of the county, way out in the boonies
(swamp on one two sides and state forests on the other two. The county
gets millions of dollars of revenue out of this every year. We also
got a bunch of well paying jobs, yes, here prison guard is a well paid
job. <g>  We are also competing with two neighboring counties for a
new interstate spur from the coast up to I 65, as a hurricane
evacuation route (and the better to bring tourists in). We've been
trying to get a regional airport built in our county for years...get
it out of the urban areas and consolidate the three small airports
into one big one. Oh, and I was reading in the local paper the other
day that a group was starting to agitate for the construction of a
nuclear power plant, less polluting than the coal fired plant across
the river. 

But we're a dry county, and every few years we vote to stay dry...no
legal liquor sold here!  And the hue and cry over drilling for oil or
gas 100 miles out in the gulf south of here was so loud it got the
attention of the governor...who's up for election and has a brother
that can ban it, so he did.

One of the big chemical plants releases millions of gallons of waste
water into the river, and there's a big stink (not just figuratively
either) about that, but the plant manager has downed a glass of it on
TV, and the scientists say the water is purer downstream of the
outlets than above them, so we go round and round about that. 

Every major throughfare in the area is perpetually "under
construction/repair" and we grumble about *that* more than anything
else. Why is it that whenever I drive past road/bridge work, there are
a dozen workers leaning against equipment talking and one guy actually
working? Do they take turns, "Okay, Joe, it's your turn to work while
the rest of us stand around and laugh at all those jerks stuck in
traffic?"

The county next door had 4 of it's 5 Commissioners arrested on
multiple felonies last month, and the community's general reaction
was, "What? That other guy too dumb to be let in on the scam?" Our
county's Commissioners sent a "message of sympathy"...we figured it
was really more of a "Thank god it was *them* that got caught, not
us!" message than anything else.

Hey, it's interesting times!


Eris,
  old coot!
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Jun 16 17:47:02 2002
Subject: Why does fule cost so much? (was Re: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs, and Fiefs (was: why does travel...))
In-Reply-To: <20020616232712.70371.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020617004634.77968279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/16/02 at 04:27 PM,  Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com> said:

>Speaking of "why does travel cost so much", I don't
>understand why Hydrogen ,in the Traveller Universe,in
>the far future costs 500 credits per ton! We're
>talking real money to refuel a scout ship! Is skimming
>a gas giant or sumping from an ocean such a big a deal
>that people would rather pay than bother? Or am I just
>missing something?

It's free if you slurp it up yourself, for the convenince of having it
delivered at the port it's 100 cr per ton unrefined, and 500 cr per
ton *refined*. Clearly delivery is costly, and refining is very
costly. <g>

So, if I'm refuling my 100 dton scout for a jump 2, I'll need 20
dtons. That's nothing if I do it all myself; 2,000 cr if I have
unrefined delivered and I crack it; and 10,000 cr if I have refined
delivered. If I have loads of time and regs don't forbid it I'll take
the first route. If I'm in bit of a hurry, or regs won't let me
"wilderness refuel", I'll buy unrefined and crack it myself. And if
I've got a fire under my tail, I'll bite the bullet and buy the
preprocessed fuel so I can lift *right now!*

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 18:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun 16 17:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A suggestion for everyone
Message-ID: <3D0CEC54.2721.14848CF@localhost>

Everyone should go by http://www.utzig.com/cgi-bin/iai/map_top.pl
and just take in the vastness of the Traveller Universe.  Its just 
amazing the number of systems there are.  

Tim Reynolds




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 18:54:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun 16 17:54:30 2002
Subject: Why does fule cost so much? (was Re: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs, and Fiefs (was: why does travel...))
In-Reply-To: <20020617004634.77968279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020616232712.70371.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D0CED2D.1395.14B97D6@localhost>

On 16 Jun 2002, at 19:46, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 06/16/02 at 04:27 PM,  Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com> said:
> 
> >Speaking of "why does travel cost so much", I don't
> >understand why Hydrogen ,in the Traveller Universe,in
> >the far future costs 500 credits per ton! We're
> >talking real money to refuel a scout ship! Is skimming
> >a gas giant or sumping from an ocean such a big a deal
> >that people would rather pay than bother? Or am I just
> >missing something?
> 
> It's free if you slurp it up yourself, for the convenince of having it
> delivered at the port it's 100 cr per ton unrefined, and 500 cr per
> ton *refined*. Clearly delivery is costly, and refining is very
> costly. <g>
> 
> So, if I'm refuling my 100 dton scout for a jump 2, I'll need 20
> dtons. That's nothing if I do it all myself; 2,000 cr if I have
> unrefined delivered and I crack it; and 10,000 cr if I have refined
> delivered. If I have loads of time and regs don't forbid it I'll take
> the first route. If I'm in bit of a hurry, or regs won't let me
> "wilderness refuel", I'll buy unrefined and crack it myself. And if
> I've got a fire under my tail, I'll bite the bullet and buy the
> preprocessed fuel so I can lift *right now!*

We are also assuming all places havea cracking plant there you 
may be limited to unrefined at best.

Tim Reynolds

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 19:04:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun 16 18:04:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
Message-ID: <20020616.180357.-108369.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

> On 16 Jun 2002 at 13:30, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> > Not this hooey again.  Have you been reading Al Gore's book or
> > something? The doomsayers have been projecting the collapse for
> > years.  Paul Erlich's "Limits to Growth" is one of the worst examples
> > of this, and I see people quoting him all the time despite that 
> fact that none of his predictions have proved to be true or accurate.
> > Quite the opposite.  Research Milton Friedman's bet with Erlich. 
> > 
> > If history is any guide, technology will rise to meet the  challenge.

No Tod, not hooey from the above people.

I was speaking in reference to my studies in 1996 when I took PCDI's
correspondence course " Wildlife and Forestry Conservation,." to become a
conservationist, not an extremist.

The books were early 90's, and over the decade many proposed improvements
have been implemented. I brought up the books "IF" statement on
population increases vs. food production because of a comment made. Back
a decade ago "if" none of the new and now working changes hadn't been
implemented then yes a crash is coming (by the book).

We've changed a lot, procedures are working now, and the "if" from the
course is just an "if",  not a fact. .

Sorry if I ruffled some feathers.

Turokan

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 19:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Jun 16 18:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] A suggestion for everyone
In-Reply-To: <3D0CEC54.2721.14848CF@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020617010551.9107A27A8F@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/16/02 at 07:51 PM,  timothyreynolds@earthlink.net said:

>Everyone should go by http://www.utzig.com/cgi-bin/iai/map_top.pl and
>just take in the vastness of the Traveller Universe.  Its just 
>amazing the number of systems there are.  

Very nice!  I'd like to get a look at the software engine that's
driving that.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 19:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Jun 16 18:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs, and Fiefs (was: why does travel...)
In-Reply-To: <20020616232712.70371.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020616232712.70371.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m3adpu7kyz.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> Speaking of "why does travel cost so much", I don't understand why
> hydrogen, in the Traveller Universe, in the far future costs 500
> credits per ton!  We're talking real money to refuel a scout ship!
> Is skimming a gas giant or sumping from an ocean such a big a deal
> that people would rather pay than bother?  Or am I just missing
> something?

It increases the chance of misjump, to the tune of -2 on a standard
GURPS success roll.  Assuming an expert engineer (Engineering-16:
98.1% chance of success), this results in changing the chance of a
misjump from 1.9% to 9.3% and of a disaster from .02% to .09%, both of
which I think most will admit is too risky (the odds of a misjump are
too high as it is--given the defaults, an expert engineer who makes 26
jumps a year will likely experience a misjump every year-and-a-half or
so).

One can avoid this by either purchasing refined fuel at 500Cr/ton, or
purchasing a refining unit at 850,000Cr.  Considering that the cost of
a refining unit purchases 1,700 tons of fuel, and that jump fuel per
parsec jumped is 10% of the ship's tonnage, a refining unit costs an
amount of money equivalent to that which could move one ton 17,000
times, or a Beowulf (200 tons) 85 jumps, or 3 years, 3 months of
travel (assuming one week in jump/one in real space).

Given that starships are bought on 40-year leases, and are expected to
last centuries, and that one jump for a standard Beowulf costs 10KCr
(* (/ 200 10) 500), I would expect that most Beowulfs would come
equipped with one--and indeed, they come with two.

Unless one has a very small ship (e.g. a 10-ton jump rocket, if such a
thing is possible), I cannot see not having a refining unit or two.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Bother,' said Pooh, `Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock
phasers on the Heffalump; Piglet, meet me in transporter room three.'
                                                    --Robert Billing

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 19:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Jun 16 18:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs, and Fiefs (was: why does travel...)
Message-ID: <F142v8AZoNDsLxb5Whq0001507a@hotmail.com>

From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>

     "And I'd like to point out that not all communities have the same
aversions. The county I live in *competed* for, and won, a medium
security prison that is sited next to the new county jail."


Mr. Reddoch,

     You are completely correct, sir.  Sometimes there are a few communities 
that welcome facilities, but I'm afraid the NIMBYs and BANANAs are in the 
majority.
     Here in Rogue Island, the "city" of Central Falls actively campaigned 
for a Federal Detention Facility and won.  They wanted it for all the 
reasons you listed in your post, even though Central Falls is only ONE 
SQUARE MILE in size.
     The Biggest Little was made to order for the early Industrial 
Revolution, big harbor for transportation, lot's of fast flowing streams for 
power, plenty of loose money left over from the slave trade.  After Samual 
Slater performed his bit of industrial espionage in the UK and absconded 
with the plans for the spinning jenny and auotmatic loom in his head, he set 
up shop in Pawtucket.  Seems the locals here promised him a bigger chunk of 
change then anywhere else in the former colonies.
     By the time of our Civil War, Rhode Island was already mostly urban, 
nearly deforested, and covered with truck farms feeding all the mill 
villages.  Most of our cities were never settled as such, instead they're 
conglomarations of former mill villages.  Folks still say they are from 
certain villagesw rather than cities.  I may live in the city of Warwick, 
but I'm really from Apponaug.
     Central Falls is one such mill village that failed to join up with the 
new cities surrounding it.  Before WW2, that wasn't a bad idea.  There were 
still plenty of mill jobs available in and around the city.  Since WW2, it's 
all been down hill.  Central Falls got so bad off that none of the 
surrounding cities would LET them join.
     With that sort of life staring them in the face, a prison, plus the 
taxes and jobs it would bring with it, was manna from heaven.

ObTrav - What sort of investment would desperate systems fight over?  I've 
seen city blocks in downtown Lagos, Nigeria filled with 55 gallon drums full 
of medical and hazardous waste from the EU and USA.  IIRC, there's a tapped 
out belt in the Marches pinning all it's hopes on a casino operation.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 19:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun 16 18:45:03 2002
Subject: Why does fule cost so much? (was Re: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs, and Fiefs (was: why does travel...))
Message-ID: <20020616.213917.-556457.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

On 06/16/02 at 04:27 PM,  Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com> said:
 
>Speaking of "why does travel cost so much", I don't
>understand why Hydrogen ,in the Traveller Universe,in
>the far future costs 500 credits per ton! We're
>talking real money to refuel a scout ship! Is skimming
>a gas giant or sumping from an ocean such a big a deal
>that people would rather pay than bother? Or am I just
>missing something?

Two reasons:  1) It increases the chance of a misjump.  2) It takes a
*lot* longer to go from planet to gas giant, skim, and then leave the
GG's 100D limit, that it does to just refuel at the starport and leave
the planet's 100D limit.

Passengers travelling on ships may get annoyed at being delay a because
the shipis too cheap to buy fuel, instead wasting their passenger's time
going all the way out to the gas giant to refuel...


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 19:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun 16 18:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <20020617000919.14D7B27A97@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17JldE-0003Qj-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

> sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > I'm also guessing that population A worlds are going to be very
> > unlikely.
> 
> Pop-A systems with less than TL9 probably are.  Above that tech level,
> the sky's not even the limit.

Technologically, certainly.  However, given the evidence of our 
world, it very much looks like the sort of unrestrained population 
growth needed to produce populations of 10 billion + are not likely 
to exist in any high tech culture.  Children simply aren't an 
economic good in societies above maybe TL 5 - combine that fact 
with any useful forms of birth control and I don't see there being 
much in the way of hi pop worlds.

> We 'know' that maintaining a high-tech industrial base takes a lot of
> people.  

Are you referring to our world (where the evidence is far from clear) 
or the TU?  In the TU, I firmly maintain that the +2 to TL for pop 9 & 
+4 to TL for pop A worlds is *not* because higher populations are 
needed to support higher tech societies, but because higher tech 
levels are needed to support high populations. 

> I'd actually expect *more* pop-A systems, not less.  A TL10
> civilization could probably economically (and ecologically) support
> pop-B on a single world, and some ridiculously larger number of people
> in spacious orbital habitats engaged in further economic activity.
> 
> Just one-tenth of Earth's asteroids and icy bodies with only GTL9
> would sustainably support more than ten trillion people in O'Neill
> style colonies with average population densities not much higher than
> Tasmania.  That's pop code *D* for the system.  The costs of
> construction and maintenance (including air and water, of course)
> would also be comparable to average rural land prices and taxes here.

A good bit of Traveller is science fantasy, but given the example of 
all cultures on our planet, expecting there to ever be trillions of 
people in one system is IMHO utterly silly.  That's the sort of 
nonsense nutballs like Marshall Savage (author of the interesting 
but wacky futurist book _The Millennial Project_) promote, and 
anthropologically it's utter nonsense.  

The only explanation I can possibly see for the large number of 
worlds with populations of 8 or 9 is that there were a good number 
of worlds with native inhabitants (including 40+ versions of Humaniti 
inside the Imperium), the fact (from DPG's Rats and Cats) the the 
early Solomani used massive scale artificial womb & robot teacher 
projects to create a large Solomani presence in the Rule of Man, & 
the fact that during the Long Night tech levels slid down in many 
worlds and large families again became economical.  

Since the founding of the Imperium, most new colonies will almost 
certainly have been founded by eccentrics, fringe groups, and 
people looking for the frontier who may need a relatively high rate of 
populations to make up for the fact that many new colonies won't 
be terribly high tech.  However, you don't get to pop 8+ through 
immigration, and evidence from our world indicates that once the 
tech level has advanced significantly on a world, the population will 
stabilize. 
 
> It cannot be said too many times -- the things you could do with the
> technology available to Traveller societies are *incredible*.  In many
> ways it's a shame that the official setting takes advantage of such a
> pittance.  Mainly bigger guns and faster 'cars'.

Could yes, but could /= will.  Clearly humans don't need to have 
large families and in the absence of strong economic incentives to 
do so, and especially in a society which offers economic 
alternatives to women, they don't.  The Imperium is clearly both 
technologically advanced and a state where women are relatively 
free, therefore large populations will be rare (or nonexistent).  The 
pop A worlds are to me simply another bit of evidence of Traveller's 
1970s roots.  

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 20:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun 16 19:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: 69
Message-ID: <91.1e918b8a.2a3e9d35@aol.com>

--part1_91.1e918b8a.2a3e9d35_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 6/16/2002 7:10:09 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


> At 1:40 PM -0700 6/15/02, Douglas Berry wrote:
> >OK, so who else has done Supplement/Adventure 69?
> >
> >I've done Supplement 69: Sex and the Single Vargr
> 
> Maybe everyone did a supplement 69.  I did a "The Nude Beaches of 
> Rigel" supplement and replaces "For GMs Only" with "For Nudists Only".
> -- 


--part1_91.1e918b8a.2a3e9d35_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 6/16/2002 7:10:09 PM Central Daylight Time, tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">At 1:40 PM -0700 6/15/02, Douglas Berry wrote:<BR>
&gt;OK, so who else has done Supplement/Adventure 69?<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;I've done Supplement 69: Sex and the Single Vargr<BR>
<BR>
Maybe everyone did a supplement 69.&nbsp; I did a "The Nude Beaches of <BR>
Rigel" supplement and replaces "For GMs Only" with "For Nudists Only".<BR>
-- </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_91.1e918b8a.2a3e9d35_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 20:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun 16 19:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: 69 again . . .
Message-ID: <121.127e1dea.2a3e9dc3@aol.com>

OK, let's try that again:


>At 1:40 PM -0700 6/15/02, Douglas Berry wrote:

>>OK, so who else has done Supplement/Adventure 69?
>>
>>I've done Supplement 69: Sex and the Single Vargr
>
>Maybe everyone did a supplement 69.  I did a "The Nude Beaches of 
>Rigel" supplement and replaces "For GMs Only" with "For Nudists Only".
 

I _graduated_ in 1969 . . . they wouldn't take my suggestion for a class 
motto, however. "Sixty-Nine is Mighty Fine!"

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 20:08:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Jun 16 19:08:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Unboring Ship Rodeo
Message-ID: <imgqgukn6g7hs9defnnug3ms5bkmne3tbe@4ax.com>

Reminder, folks: If you want to see these unboring ships at the Freelance
Traveller Shipyard, either provide explicit permission for me on the list,
or email them to editor@freelancetraveller.com or
submissions@freelancetraveller.com.
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 20:12:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun 16 19:12:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Libertine
Message-ID: <91.1e918b8b.2a3e9e97@aol.com>

>What is a "Libertine"?  I noticed there's a Mylene Farmer song with that
>title.

Do a google search for "Libertine men" and "Scarlet Women" and think about 
some stuck-up jockey boy sittin' on Dan Patch. 

Make your blood boil? I should say . . . 

LKW

(hearing the voice of Robert Preston, for some reason . . . )

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 20:20:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Chris Watson)
Date: Sun Jun 16 19:20:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Teleportation is one step closer!
Message-ID: <A6074044-8198-11D6-850E-0003937B4040@voodooland.net>

--Apple-Mail-39-876010864
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=US-ASCII;
	format=flowed


http://www.abc.net.au/news/scitech/2002/06/item20020617070959_1.htm

I thought some of you would get a kick from this.

<Asmodee`> ibm said they were investing 1 billion $ into open source 
projects
<DAL9000> Asmodee`: do you know what happens when you invest money in 
opensource projects?
<DAL9000> NOTHING! it buys the coders some beer, nachos, and porn to 
watch instead of coding.

--Apple-Mail-39-876010864
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/enriched;
	charset=US-ASCII


http://www.abc.net.au/news/scitech/2002/06/item20020617070959_1.htm


I thought some of you would get a kick from this.


<fixed><fontfamily><param>Courier New</param><<Asmodee`> ibm said they
were investing 1 billion $ into open source projects 

<<DAL9000> Asmodee`: do you know what happens when you invest money in
opensource projects? 

<<DAL9000> NOTHING! it buys the coders some beer, nachos, and porn to
watch instead of coding.</fontfamily></fixed><fontfamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger><bigger>

</bigger></bigger></fontfamily>
--Apple-Mail-39-876010864--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 20:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Jun 16 19:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <E17JldE-0003Qj-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <E17JldE-0003Qj-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <m31yb67ibq.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
>
> Clearly humans don't need to have large families and in the absence
> of strong economic incentives to do so, and especially in a society
> which offers economic alternatives to women, they don't.  The
> Imperium is clearly both technologically advanced and a state where
> women are relatively free, therefore large populations will be rare
> (or nonexistent).

Non sequitur.  You assume that childbearing will be forever looked
down upon.  It may be that in the future this is not the case.  If,
for example, artificial wombs were developed, then folks could have as
many children as they desire.  Or if all those who don't want children
die out because they don't have children, those remaining obviously
would...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say
to its subjects, `This you may not read, this you must not see, this
you are forbidden to know,' the end result is tyranny and oppression,
no matter how holy the motives.  Mighty little force is needed to
control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount
of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the
rack, not fission bombs, not anything.  You can't conquer a free man;
the most you can do is kill him.               --Robert A.  Heinlein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 20:29:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Jun 16 19:29:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Roseberrys Rodeo entrys #3 and #4
Message-ID: <3D0D4830.C06CFF5B@mail.cswnet.com>

Both of the following ships are common in the Lunion subsector
[IMTU-Arba Landgrab]
Both are produced on Adabicci [1824 Lunion/Spinward Marches].

Entry#3
Ship: Girls Best Friend
Class: Seeker
Type: J11

usp
J-12222R1-000000-10000-0  Mcr51.200  100tons
 single battery                              crew=4  TL 11
Fuel=24 Ep=2 Agility=1 Fuel Scoops  pulse laser
cargo=7dt  ore bay=20dt  vehicle bay=4dt
carries prospecting buggy  Emergency Agility=2
stores=1 ton  staterooms[4dt]=2
Crew=4 [pilot, gunner, 2 prospectors]

Architects Fee: Mcr.5065  Cost in Quantity: Mcr41.08

----------------------------------------------------
Entry#4
Ship: Minnie Me 
Class: Micro Trader
TypeA 1/2

usp
A-16212R1-030000-00001-0 Mcr47.1 100dt
single battery
Cargo=41dt Fuel=22 EP=2 Agility=1 Fuel Scoops only
Crew=2 [pilot, gunner] Staterooms=1 [double crew capacity]

Architects Fee: Mcr .047 Cost in Quantity: Mcr37.68

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 20:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Jun 16 19:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <20020617090308.A16385@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEBHEBAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> ObTrav: easy enough.  See all those high-pop worlds?  The ones
>> without agriculture?  The ones which rely on shipping for food?
>> Imagine the effects of a blockade.
>
>Living on a "Na" world must be a nightmare.  Food must cost a fortune
>due to shipping costs on top of the production, distribution, duties,
>and various middleman costs.  Interstellar shipping is *expensive*.  I
>can't see how it would be more cost-effective to ship in food than to
>produce it locally given the known rules for freight costs.
>
Read the fine print. All NA means is that the world is Non-Agricultural,
i.e. they do not farm to grow their food. Food can be produced by other
means. I believe First In (and its earlier incarnation Scouts) says that
such worlds can produce food through either technological sources (food
"manufactured" chemically,) or through things like "Fauxflesh" vats.

This means that the GM can sentence the locals to a horrible existence of
synthetic gruel, while the rich eat imported real food, or she can rule than
synthetic foods are not only equal to grown food, but a comprise a
cornucopia of new and interesting flavor blends.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 20:46:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Jun 16 19:46:06 2002
Subject: Why does fule cost so much? (was Re: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs,
 and Fiefs (was: why does travel...))
In-Reply-To: <20020617004634.77968279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B9329B2E.5F6AD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/16/02 5:46 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

> It's free if you slurp it up yourself, for the convenince of having it
> delivered at the port it's 100 cr per ton unrefined, and 500 cr per
> ton *refined*. Clearly delivery is costly, and refining is very
> costly. <g>

Um, why is refined fuel costly.  I start with distilled water.  I produce
hydrogen by electrolysis.  My likely contaminants are deuterium and tritium.
If these are a problem, refining is going to be *really* costly.  Much more
that Cr500/ton.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 20:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun 16 19:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick help needed!
Message-ID: <OF39B5EFDC.E2EDD7C6-ONCA256BDB.000DC6DE@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Rupert said:
>I figure a sword doing 4d(10) 
>should make quite a mess of your average Far Trader's bridge controls 
>when you miss your opponent (or it goes right through and keeps on 
>going).

You may be interested in William Hostman's tweak for MT: consoles have 
armour = TL when inspection panels are shut, and TL/2 when panels are 
open. (Modify this as required for whatever rules system you are using).

From that point use the collateral damage rules from AHL to find out what 
happens when - for example - a red conduit is breached.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 20:49:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Sun Jun 16 19:49:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Unboring Ship Rodeo
References: <imgqgukn6g7hs9defnnug3ms5bkmne3tbe@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <001301c215a9$53ca5320$1c577b83@Gideon>



> Reminder, folks: If you want to see these unboring ships at the Freelance
> Jeff Zeitlin

Mr. Zeitlin,

You have my express permission to post my entry (The Juniper-class escort)
to the Traveller Shipyard <smile>...

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 20:52:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Jun 16 19:52:06 2002
Subject: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs, and Fiefs (was: why does travel...)
In-Reply-To: <m3adpu7kyz.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEBIEBAA.carlino@cox.net>

> Speaking of "why does travel cost so much", I don't understand why
> hydrogen, in the Traveller Universe, in the far future costs 500
> credits per ton!  We're talking real money to refuel a scout ship!
> Is skimming a gas giant or sumping from an ocean such a big a deal
> that people would rather pay than bother?  Or am I just missing
> something?

If the port is an inner planet (like Terra for example) and the nearest GG
is the same distance out as Jupiter a trader limited to 1G could take up to
2 weeks to reach the GG, depending upon specific planetary positions. That's
2 weeks you aren't making any money. You could be in another system with a
new cargo by that time. Add that up over a year and you're talking much more
money that anything saved by frontier refueling.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 20:53:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Jun 16 19:53:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Updated Rodeo list
Message-ID: <3D0D4D87.CAAE08A0@mail.cswnet.com>

As of a little past Digest#632:

1. Cougar class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
2. Valuta class Assault Landing Ship--John Kwon
3. DBZ class Heavy Attack Scout--Dan Roseberry
4. Cuda class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
5. Cobra class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
6. Carronade class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
7. Chukkar class Merchant--John Kwon
8. Pell class Cargo Ship--John-Martin
9. Juniper class Missile Corvette--Anthony Colosetti
10. Ferdinand class Exploration Cruiser--Alan Bradley
11. Moronica Sisters Type A1.7725 Merchant--Alan Spik
12. Makiidi class Bulk Trader--Stephen Tempest
13. Shambieau class trader--Nick
14. Chauchat class Escort--Leslie Bates
15. Oldendorf class Tramp Trader--Dan Roseberry
16. Girls Best Friend [TL11 Seeker class]--Dan Roseberry
17. Minnie Me [Micro Trader class]--Dan Roseberry

And its only June 16...

...on a related subject, it occured to me that Larsen may have watched
to much Cowboy Bebop [especially the Big Shots segments]. This is
perfectly understandable. Watching Faye Valentine often makes me Space
Happy...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 21:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Jun 16 20:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Unboring Ship Rodeo
In-Reply-To: <imgqgukn6g7hs9defnnug3ms5bkmne3tbe@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020616215941.009dfd60@minn.net>

At 10:04 PM 6/16/2002 -0400, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>Reminder, folks: If you want to see these unboring ships at the Freelance
>Traveller Shipyard, either provide explicit permission for me on the list,
>or email them to editor@freelancetraveller.com or
>submissions@freelancetraveller.com.
>--
>Jeff Zeitlin
>jzeitlin@cyburban.com

Sorry, I forgot about that.

Permission is explicitly granted to post COUGAR, CUDA, COBRA, CARRONADE,
and CHAUCHAT on your site.


Les



=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 21:07:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun 16 20:07:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: 69
Message-ID: <OFC596D810.18981606-ONCA256BDB.00108230@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Ok, clearly it's not me, rather it must be Loren's call for Traveller 
titles, but when I first glanced at John's statement:
>Clearly humans don't need to have 
>large families...
[snip]
>and especially in a society which offers economic 
>alternatives to women, they don't.

...I misread it as:
>Clearly humans don't need to have 
>large families...
[snip]
>and especially in a society which offers
>alternatives to women, they don't.

Traveller Supplement XXX: Alternatives to Women?

;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 21:10:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark F. Cook)
Date: Sun Jun 16 20:10:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: CHAUCHAT Prototype Close Escort (Leslie Bates)
In-Reply-To: <20020617000921.6A4C027A9C@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020616200211.00ae4848@mail.peak.org>

At 05:07 PM 6/16/2002 -0700, Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> wrote:

>This is another escort. I originally intended to only do the mutiny-prone
>precursor to the GAZELLE class, but this project continues to grow on me.
>More ships will be posted as I get around to it.
>
>The following is excerpted from MERCHANTS AND PATROL SHIPS OF THE THIRD
>IMPERIUM:
>
>CHAUCHAT Close Escort, CE-14 (LSP prototype-B)

{snip]

>Comments:       CHAUCHAT (named after a light machine gun used by one of
>the nations on the winning side of the First Terran World War) was a single
>prototype of a particle accelerator armed close escort built by Ling
>Standard Products at the request of the Imperial Navy as a possible
>alternative to the CARRONADE, GAZELLE, and FIERY classes.  The CHAUCHAT
>class was ultimately rejected for series production and the single
>prototype was sold to a small family owned weapons research firm (that we
>dare not name) for use as a weapons and power plant test bed. CHAUCHAT was
>last seen under the command of one of the younger female members of the
>owning family.  If anyone sights the CHAUCHAT, they are to please notify
>the Imperial authorities, as they are becoming very, very, very worried.

Leslie, I hope you're aware of the fact that most historians and arms experts
consider the Chauchat to be the worst designed machine gun of all time, bar
none. During WWI, many were discarded by their owners with the first magazine
only partially fired.  I hope this choice of names isn't intended to 
reflect upon
the quality of your ship design.

        - Mark C.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
  7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
  Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 21:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sun Jun 16 20:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Libertine
In-Reply-To: <91.1e918b8b.2a3e9e97@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000601c215ae$7a7eac50$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 19:08
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: Libertine

>What is a "Libertine"?  I noticed there's a Mylene Farmer song with
that
>title.

Do a google search for "Libertine men" and "Scarlet Women" and think
about 
some stuck-up jockey boy sittin' on Dan Patch. 

Make your blood boil? I should say . . . 

LKW

(hearing the voice of Robert Preston, for some reason . . . )
_______________________________________________


Sigh.  I'm afraid the reference is completely lost on me.  I don't get
out much.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 21:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Jun 16 20:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo List...the entrants so far
In-Reply-To: <000901c21522$d99531a0$d3b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <20020617034622.E161C27A92@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/16/02 at 08:43 PM,  "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> said:

>> From: Roseberry
>> 1. Cougar class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
>> 2. Valuta class Assault Landing Ship--John Kwon
>> 3. DBZ class Heavy Attack Scout--Dan Roseberry
>> 4. Cuda class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
>> 5. Cobra class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
>> 6. Carronade class Close Escort--Leslie Bates

>All Naval ships.  No civilian ships yet.  Unfortunately my first one
>is going to be "military", too.

Civilian ship, you  bet!  How long have I got?

I've been thinking about designing a Merchant Scout. A small ship with
the mission of entering unexplored subsectors and doing market
evaluation of the systems there.  Crew will have the usual spacers,
with a 3 or 4 scientists and merchants along as "mission specialists." 
It won't be heavily armed, a couple of turrets with sandcasters and
lasers, but it will have good sensors and long legs. 

Would that interest anyone?

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 21:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Jun 16 20:50:02 2002
Subject: Why does fule cost so much? (was Re: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs,
Message-ID: <200206170349.UAA17019@molly.iii.com>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:

>on 6/16/02 5:46 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:
>
>> It's free if you slurp it up yourself, for the convenince of having it
>> delivered at the port it's 100 cr per ton unrefined, and 500 cr per
>> ton *refined*. Clearly delivery is costly, and refining is very
>> costly. <g>
>
>Um, why is refined fuel costly.  I start with distilled water.  I produce
>hydrogen by electrolysis.  My likely contaminants are deuterium and tritium.
>If these are a problem, refining is going to be *really* costly.  Much more
>that Cr500/ton.

Hm...I'm scared of worlds where tritium is a likely contaminant.  The main
cost is probably actually liquifaction.  However, given the canonical cost
for fuel processors, it's really hard to justify standard fuel costs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 21:52:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun 16 20:52:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo List...the entrants so far
In-Reply-To: <20020617034622.E161C27A92@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <000901c21522$d99531a0$d3b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3D0D1727.17038.1EF9873@localhost>

Go for it.  Would like to see a ship write up by you.


On 16 Jun 2002, at 22:46, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 06/16/02 at 08:43 PM,  "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> said:
> 
> >> From: Roseberry
> >> 1. Cougar class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
> >> 2. Valuta class Assault Landing Ship--John Kwon
> >> 3. DBZ class Heavy Attack Scout--Dan Roseberry
> >> 4. Cuda class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
> >> 5. Cobra class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
> >> 6. Carronade class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
> 
> >All Naval ships.  No civilian ships yet.  Unfortunately my first one
> >is going to be "military", too.
> 
> Civilian ship, you  bet!  How long have I got?
> 
> I've been thinking about designing a Merchant Scout. A small ship with
> the mission of entering unexplored subsectors and doing market
> evaluation of the systems there.  Crew will have the usual spacers,
> with a 3 or 4 scientists and merchants along as "mission specialists."
> It won't be heavily armed, a couple of turrets with sandcasters and
> lasers, but it will have good sensors and long legs. 
> 
> Would that interest anyone?
> 
> Eris
> -- 
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 21:54:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Jun 16 20:54:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: CHAUCHAT Prototype Close Escort (Leslie Bates)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020616200211.00ae4848@mail.peak.org>
References: <20020617000921.6A4C027A9C@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020616225300.009e4160@minn.net>

At 08:06 PM 6/16/2002 -0700, Mark wrote:
>At 05:07 PM 6/16/2002 -0700, Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> wrote:

>>CHAUCHAT Close Escort, CE-14 (LSP prototype-B)

>
>Leslie, I hope you're aware of the fact that most historians and arms experts
>consider the Chauchat to be the worst designed machine gun of all time, bar
>none. During WWI, many were discarded by their owners with the first magazine
>only partially fired.  I hope this choice of names isn't intended to 
>reflect upon
>the quality of your ship design.
>
>        - Mark C.

Actually, it's a reflection of what the naval architect thought of the IN's
desire to stick a PA-1 barbette on a otherwise perfectly good vessel.

Les


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 21:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Jun 16 20:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Roseberrys Rodeo Entry#5
Message-ID: <3D0D5CA6.F9E58197@mail.cswnet.com>

Entry#5
Ship Name: Sinzsha Maru
Class: Sonzsha Maru
Type: Ore Carrier

usp
M-5411112-040000-30002-0 Mcr198.472 520dt
Bat Bear   2     1   2   Crew 12
Bat        2     1   2   TL12
Fuel=57.2 EP=5.2 Agility=0 EM Agility=1 
Fuel Scoops and on board fuel purification plant
Cargo= 277.4 Passengers=1 [middle passage only]
3x20dt Launches [same as Type R Launch in Supplement 7]
Crew=13 [pilot, navigator, 2 engineers, 1 medic, 5 gunners, 3 flight
crew]

Architects Fee Mcr1.565 Cost in Quantity Mcr167.178

An old design, built at the LSP yards on Lunion and Strouden. Originally
built as an Ore Carrier, the Sonzsha class has also been used as a fuel
tanker.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 22:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Jun 16 21:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <20020616145530.A9975@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20616.091451.2O8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Even if the population exceeded our ability to produce, I very much
> doubt that there would be a growth/starvation cycle.  Humans breed far
> too slowly and energy-intensively for that.  The positive feedback of
> "people make more people" is delayed by a generation.  The negative
> feedback "not enough food means more deaths" is much more immediate as
> children die while growing up.  Such feedback properties generally
> lead to a stable limit point, not a boom/crash cycle.  This is a
> rather callous way to look at it, I agree.

Actually, we are getting the current (and recent) crashes in place like
Africa because we introduced modern medicine, but (for the most part)
didn't increase food production, nor introduce borth control.

So lots more children survived disease, only to starve...

Sometimes doing "good" can cause as much (if not more) harm than
"letting nature take its course".

If folks in the future learn from our mistakes, I can see a lot of
medical aid being tied to things like 6 month contraceptive implants or
the like.

Yes, that'll bring cries of "forcing our ideas on other cultures". But
if they want the help, and aren't willing to make adjustments for the
population effects of the help, what can you do?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 22:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Jun 16 21:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <3D0DD4BC.15008.B2834E@localhost>
References: <E17JWpL-0007Xe-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <20020617081603.B16220@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D0DD4BC.15008.B2834E@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020617141805.A16821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> says wasted because the first thing anyone said when I ran out of
> breath was "so where are the high-tech gun shops at?" Sometimes I
> think that maybe I should just give up and go back to running
> D&D. <sigh>

Yeah, you get that :/

In my "Bucket Queen" Traveller game I plan to start soon, none of the
player characters or other crew have any particular combat skills.
That's what the "Munchkin-class" Defense Bot is for.  Big Deal.  Even
that technically goes beyond Traveller, as it uses GURPS micronuclear
warheads and has a robot brain capable of full sentience.  What do
people find so fascinating about high tech guns?  That's only one tiny
drop of the immense possibilities.


In one SF game I was playing in, it was a great shock to suddenly
realise that even if I did incinerate the corpse of one particular
enemy with a fusion gun it wouldn't make much difference.  It was a
downloaded post-human whose brain state was linked by neutrino comm to
a number of other sites.  100 MJ of fusion energy to do not much more
in effect than cause a rectifiable loss of a 'limb'.

Not to mention the creepy feeling that comes about when you realise
that the worst weapons aren't the ones that kill you -- they are the
ones that rewrite your personality to suit your attacker.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 22:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Jun 16 21:22:03 2002
Subject: Why does fuel cost so much? (was Re: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs,
In-Reply-To: <200206170349.UAA17019@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20020617042125.2964727AE1@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/16/02 at 08:49 PM,  Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> said:

>>Um, why is refined fuel costly.  I start with distilled water.  I produce
>>hydrogen by electrolysis.  My likely contaminants are deuterium and tritium.
>>If these are a problem, refining is going to be *really* costly.  Much more
>>that Cr500/ton.

>Hm...I'm scared of worlds where tritium is a likely contaminant.  The
>main cost is probably actually liquifaction.  However, given the
>canonical cost for fuel processors, it's really hard to justify
>standard fuel costs.

Well, in my case, refined jump fuel is protium, and unrefined jump
fuel is hydrogen with isotopic contamination. Refining involves
getting the hydrogen as mono-isotopic as possible, liquifying and
storing it. Yes, I could be concerned about the cost of the fuel, but
I'm going to pretend that it's a fair price.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 22:26:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Jun 16 21:26:04 2002
Subject: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs, and Fiefs (was: why does travel...)
References: <20020617003725.105B6279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D0E0D46.314DDF25@mindspring.com>

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 06/16/02 at 03:28 PM,  "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
> <grote1731@hotmail.com> said:
>
> >From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
> <snip>
>
> Every major throughfare in the area is perpetually "under
> construction/repair" and we grumble about *that* more than anything
> else. Why is it that whenever I drive past road/bridge work, there are
> a dozen workers leaning against equipment talking and one guy actually
> working? Do they take turns, "Okay, Joe, it's your turn to work while
> the rest of us stand around and laugh at all those jerks stuck in
> traffic?"<snip>

That's probably me or one of my ilk testing the
soils/aggregates/asphalt/concrete for density/stability/suitability/air
content/etc..... To my suprise it turned out to be the government that
causes most construction delays. Go figure.



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The simplest act of surrealism is to walk out into the street,
gun in hand, and shoot at random.
           -Andr Breton



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 22:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Jun 16 21:30:02 2002
Subject: Why does fule cost so much? (was Re: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs, and Fiefs (was: why does travel...))
In-Reply-To: <20020616.213917.-556457.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
References: <20020616.213917.-556457.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020617142906.B16821@freeman.little-possums.net>

knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> Two reasons: 1) It increases the chance of a misjump.

Only if you don't refine it yourself.  Doing so is pretty trivial, and
the price difference between refined and unrefined fuel is pretty
huge.


>  2) It takes a *lot* longer to go from planet to gas giant, skim,
> and then leave the GG's 100D limit, that it does to just refuel at
> the starport and leave the planet's 100D limit.

True, the service is worth that much to a starship.  It doesn't cost
even a tenth to supply such a service though.  Perhaps the starport
authorities impose monopoly pricing on such services, preventing the
normal commodity market forces from lowering prices?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 22:31:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Jun 16 21:31:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <20616.091451.2O8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020617042913.D0F5827AE7@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/16/02 at 09:14 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
said:

>Actually, we are getting the current (and recent) crashes in place
>like Africa because we introduced modern medicine, but (for the most
>part) didn't increase food production, nor introduce borth control.

>So lots more children survived disease, only to starve...

>Sometimes doing "good" can cause as much (if not more) harm than
>"letting nature take its course".

>If folks in the future learn from our mistakes, I can see a lot of
>medical aid being tied to things like 6 month contraceptive implants
>or the like.

>Yes, that'll bring cries of "forcing our ideas on other cultures".
>But if they want the help, and aren't willing to make adjustments for
>the population effects of the help, what can you do?

It'll be called genocide, and those that don't cave will be called
nazis. Please, note, I'm not saying *I* would call it that, but it I
can hear Dan Rather or Peter Jennings now.

To be honest, I don't know what is going to work.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 22:33:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Gilson)
Date: Sun Jun 16 21:33:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Libertine
In-Reply-To: <000601c215ae$7a7eac50$6401a8c0@GOCA>
References: <91.1e918b8b.2a3e9e97@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020616232443.035a6008@mail.mchsi.com>

At 08:24 PM 6/16/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>Do a google search for "Libertine men" and "Scarlet Women" and think
>about
>some stuck-up jockey boy sittin' on Dan Patch.
>
>Make your blood boil? I should say . . .
>
>LKW
>
>(hearing the voice of Robert Preston, for some reason . . . )
>_______________________________________________
>
>
>Sigh.  I'm afraid the reference is completely lost on me.  I don't get
>out much.

"Yes we have trouble right here in River City."

Musical Reference: The Music Man

"Cause you are in Iowayyyyyyyy"

Robert Gilson




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 22:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Jun 16 21:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] rodeo entry: Moronica Sisters Type A1.7725
References: <3D0D4E5F.812E8C8C@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D0E0FC0.F8F64501@mindspring.com>

alan spik wrote:

Mr. Zeitlan, you have my permission to post the Moronica Sisters Type
A1.7725 merchant to the Freelance Traveller site.

Alan Spik


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The simplest act of surrealism is to walk out into the street,
gun in hand, and shoot at random.
           -Andr Breton



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 22:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Jun 16 21:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Character genertpr for T4
Message-ID: <3D0D231A.27413.21E487B@localhost>

Hey can someone point me in the direction of a T4 character 
generator program if one exist.


Tim Reynolds

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 22:46:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Jun 16 21:46:16 2002
Subject: [TML] YEE-HAW!  The Rodeo's FINE!
Message-ID: <3D0D6891.CA26B012@mail.cswnet.com>

Roseberry aka Dr. Evil jr:
>>>Got a question for ya. We have a few entrants that have non >>>starships included with their starship design. Do we need to have >>>them listed seperatly? eg if a Type R sub merchant is put in do we >>>list the sub merchant as one entrant and the sub merchants launch as >>>a separate entrant?

Larsen Whipsnade aka Space Cowboy
>> How 'bout handling them like this?  If they were designed as small 
>>craft for another vessel or meant to be small craft for a submitted >>vessel,then we'll keep 'em with their mare.  If they're a stand-alone >>design, like my upcoming Belt Packet, we'll brand 'em and put 'em all >>in the same corral? 

Leslie Bates aka Shipyard Manager, Neo-Minneapolis Downport,
Scandia/Solomani Rim
>The rule should be (if I may so suggest) only when using a >non-standard small craft. As with the entries for the COUGAR and CUDA >classes of escorts.

For administrative purposes, its easier to post such things seperately,
especially with the number of ships entered thus far [I just sent
another one in, so the last Rodeo list is already out of date]. It makes
it easier for Space Cowboy and my self. Consider: we have about 18 ships
in the past two days. The contest goes for about 30 days. If this pace
continues, we will have somewhere around 200-300 ships. I haven't looked
at all the designs, but a cursory glance seems to show that the TNE, T4,
and GT folks haven't arrived yet [you can bet they will]. 

Larsen, you may have created a monster. 

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 23:07:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Jun 16 22:07:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <E17JldE-0003Qj-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <20020617000919.14D7B27A97@mail.travellercentral.com> <E17JldE-0003Qj-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020617150649.C16821@freeman.little-possums.net>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> combine that fact with any useful forms of birth control and I don't
> see there being much in the way of hi pop worlds.

What stable population would *you* think is more likely?  Why that,
and not a hundred times more, or a hundred times less?

If you go by rate of change of population in modern nations, the only
'stable' population is zero.  Growth is *negative*.


> In the TU, I firmly maintain that the +2 to TL for pop 9 & +4 to TL
> for pop A worlds is *not* because higher populations are needed to
> support higher tech societies, but because higher tech levels are
> needed to support high populations.

So you think 1000 people can support a modern TL 7 society?


> A good bit of Traveller is science fantasy, but given the example of 
> all cultures on our planet, expecting there to ever be trillions of 
> people in one system is IMHO utterly silly.

Why?  What are the limiting factors which apply to trillions, but not
to billions?


> Clearly humans don't need to have large families and in the absence
> of strong economic incentives to do so, and especially in a society
> which offers economic alternatives to women, they don't.

So why do you think the average birth-rate will *exactly* equal the
average death rate in such societies?  Low but positive growth over
millenia eventually fills all available space.  Negative growth over
millenia means extinction.  The only stable state is where the growth
rate depends upon the population, and decreases with increasing
population.

You seem to be arguing not that the Imperium should consist of
high-tech worlds with low, stable, populations, but that it should
consist of nothing but pre-industrial societies, the more advanced
ones having died out due to insufficient birthrate once it became
uneconomic to have lots of children.

I am arguing that growth rates depend (at least partially) on the cost
of supporting additional population, that costs to do so decrease
drastically with the assumptions of Traveller spacefaring tech levels,
and that there are economic benefits of increased population.  Hence I
expect stable populations to be substantially higher than one would
guess based on assumptions valid only for TL7 Earth.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 23:11:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Jun 16 22:11:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEBHEBAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020617090308.A16385@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEBHEBAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020617151030.D16821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> I believe First In (and its earlier incarnation Scouts) says that
> such worlds can produce food through either technological sources
> (food "manufactured" chemically,) or through things like "Fauxflesh"
> vats.

OK, I can well believe that.  I don't have either book, but thought I
read somewhere else in the mountain of Traveller material that "Na"
means that a world depends upon food imports.  This seemed to be
backed up by Far Trader's rules increasing trade between Ag and Na
worlds by a factor of three(!)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 23:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Jun 16 22:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo Entry:  Makiidi class bulk trader
In-Reply-To: <3d0caea4.17029728@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <3d0caea4.17029728@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020617152716.E16821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> was built around the Ziru Sirka's most precious secret: a Jump-Two
> drive.  While Jump-One ships were plentiful in private ownership
> within the Imperium, the only way they could cross the rifts between

This has never made sense to me.  Jump-1 ships can cross rifts just as
easily as Jump-2 ships -- they just take twice as long to do so.  I
can see why it would be militarily and economically advantageous to
have a jump-2 drive, but not why it would make anything possible that
wasn't already.

After all, it's not like 2300AD where the ships had to discharge in a
gravity well before moving on.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 23:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Jun 16 22:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CHAUCHAT Prototype Close Escort
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020616163456.009d7370@minn.net>
Message-ID: <B932C235.5F729%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/16/02 2:34 PM, Leslie Bates at lesbates@minn.net wrote:

> Comments:       CHAUCHAT (named after a light machine gun used by one of
> the nations on the winning side of the First Terran World War)

You do know that the Chauchat was probably the worst machinegun ever made?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 23:33:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Jun 16 22:33:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <20020617151030.D16821@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020617053119.19B4B27AF1@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/17/02 at 03:10 PM,  Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> said:

>Terry Carlino wrote:
>> I believe First In (and its earlier incarnation Scouts) says that
>> such worlds can produce food through either technological sources
>> (food "manufactured" chemically,) or through things like "Fauxflesh"
>> vats.

>OK, I can well believe that.  I don't have either book, but thought I
>read somewhere else in the mountain of Traveller material that "Na"
>means that a world depends upon food imports.  This seemed to be
>backed up by Far Trader's rules increasing trade between Ag and Na
>worlds by a factor of three(!)

I think It's fair to say that Na worlds are net importers of food and
Ag worlds are net exporters. IMO, Na worlds may very likely engage in
some sort of food production, even agriculture, and *may* be
self-sufficient, but traders don't expect to find agricultural
products for export there. OTOH, Ag worlds may do all sorts of Na
things in addition to growing food, but traders do expect to find
agricultural products available for export there.  I don't think you
can go a *lot* further than that.  

Hum, okay, think of New Jersey if NJ was a world, how would be
classifed?  Na? In? Certainly not Ag!  Sure NJ is more industrial than
agricultural, but food is grown, and even exported.  What about New
Zealand? Agricultural? Sure, but there *is* some industry there too,
right? <g>

The best Traveller trade codes do (or are really supposed to do) is
give a rough idea of what a world produces and needs. A very rough
idea. 

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 23:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Jun 16 22:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <3D0DD4BC.4505.B28416@localhost>
Message-ID: <B932C347.5F72A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

> 
> Even if it doesn't everything's fine until every available source of
> food is being exploited at maximum efficiency (in terms of output per
> unit, not cost-efficiency) and the population rises still further or
> the resource exploitation is unsustainable.

But when, if ever, is that point reached?  We move to new methods of food
production.  Abandon higher level feeders in favor of simpler foods (adios
beef, hello plankton and algae).  Go off earth for resources.  How much
material is waiting in the asteroid belts?  Sure, we've been slow to exploit
those resources, because we don't have to.  Watch and see what we can and
will do if it becomes necessary.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 23:40:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Jun 16 22:40:05 2002
Subject: Why does fule cost so much? (was Re: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs,
 and Fiefs (was: why does travel...))
In-Reply-To: <3D0CED2D.1395.14B97D6@localhost>
Message-ID: <B932C417.5F72B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/16/02 5:55 PM, timothyreynolds@earthlink.net at
timothyreynolds@earthlink.net wrote:

> 
> We are also assuming all places havea cracking plant there you
> may be limited to unrefined at best.

Why are you extracting hydrogen from hydrocarbons (cracking) if you have
fusion power and water?  Wouldn't electrolysis be much cheaper, cleaner and
easier?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 23:41:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Jun 16 22:41:23 2002
Subject: [TML] CHAUCHAT Prototype Close Escort
In-Reply-To: <B932C235.5F729%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020616163456.009d7370@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020617003951.009dfd60@minn.net>

At 10:31 PM 6/16/2002 -0700, Tod L Glenn wrote:
>on 6/16/02 2:34 PM, Leslie Bates at lesbates@minn.net wrote:
>
>> Comments:       CHAUCHAT (named after a light machine gun used by one of
>> the nations on the winning side of the First Terran World War)
>
>You do know that the Chauchat was probably the worst machinegun ever made?

Yes.


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 23:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Jun 16 22:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <20020616.180357.-108369.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <B932C5C4.5F731%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/16/02 6:02 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com
wrote:

> 
> I was speaking in reference to my studies in 1996 when I took PCDI's
> correspondence course " Wildlife and Forestry Conservation,." to become a
> conservationist, not an extremist.
> 
> The books were early 90's, and over the decade many proposed improvements
> have been implemented. I brought up the books "IF" statement on
> population increases vs. food production because of a comment made. Back
> a decade ago "if" none of the new and now working changes hadn't been
> implemented then yes a crash is coming (by the book).
> 
> We've changed a lot, procedures are working now, and the "if" from the
> course is just an "if",  not a fact. .
> 
> Sorry if I ruffled some feathers.

Sorry here, too.  I have to deal with pseudoscience from my children's
school all the time (and revisionist history and other 'junk' learning).
It's a pet peeve of mine.  Right up there with listening to Meryl Streep
testifying to congress about the dangers of Alar (I never did hear them
mention Meryl's credentials in biochemistry.)  I Almost gagged when I first
read "Earth in the balance".  Unfortunately for the environmental movement,
a great part of their message in based on 'the Big Lie'.  It tends to make
those of us who are serious students and scientists ignore the whole
message, including the bits of truth hidden in there.

I guess some people get a charge out of doom saying.  And have a vested
interest in promoting it.  After all, why would people keep sending money in
to all those groups if they thought that we're actually doing pretty well?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 23:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Jun 16 22:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Libertine
In-Reply-To: <91.1e918b8b.2a3e9e97@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B932C62A.5F732%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/16/02 7:08 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> Do a google search for "Libertine men" and "Scarlet Women" and think about
> some stuck-up jockey boy sittin' on Dan Patch.
> 
> Make your blood boil? I should say . . .

I once did a search for the lyrics to the theme song for the cartoon "Super
Chicken".  That was an eye opener.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Jun 16 23:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Jun 16 22:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why does fule cost so much?
In-Reply-To: <20020617142906.B16821@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B932C723.5F73B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/16/02 9:29 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

>> 2) It takes a *lot* longer to go from planet to gas giant, skim,
>> and then leave the GG's 100D limit, that it does to just refuel at
>> the starport and leave the planet's 100D limit.
> 
> True, the service is worth that much to a starship.  It doesn't cost
> even a tenth to supply such a service though.  Perhaps the starport
> authorities impose monopoly pricing on such services, preventing the
> normal commodity market forces from lowering prices?

Does the STA get a slice of that action.  That would explain a lot too.

Which brings up another question.  How are STA operations funded INTU?
Direct user fees?  Local Taxes?  Imperial disbursements?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 00:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Jun 16 23:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Limited Jumps (was Rodeo Entry:  Makiidi class bulk trader)
In-Reply-To: <20020617152716.E16821@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020617062025.8D1FC27A7B@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/17/02 at 03:27 PM,  Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> said:

>Stephen Tempest wrote:
>> was built around the Ziru Sirka's most precious secret: a Jump-Two
>> drive.  While Jump-One ships were plentiful in private ownership
>> within the Imperium, the only way they could cross the rifts between

>This has never made sense to me.  Jump-1 ships can cross rifts just
>as easily as Jump-2 ships -- they just take twice as long to do so. 
>I can see why it would be militarily and economically advantageous to
>have a jump-2 drive, but not why it would make anything possible that
>wasn't already.

>After all, it's not like 2300AD where the ships had to discharge in a
>gravity well before moving on.

Well, maybe. Can you jump to "empty hexes?"

When I started running Traveller in 1977, I only had the first 3 LBB
to go on, and nowhere in there (that I found at the time, or since)
was there an answer to that question. My assumption then was that you
could not, you had to jump from "system to system." When I got
Adventure One, the entry about The Battle of the Two Suns taking place
"midway between" the two systems really bothered me...it seemed to
indicate you could jump to some point that wasn't a "system", but
never explained what in the world two fleets were doing out way out
there in empty space, so I decided to ignore it. IAC, over the years
I've pretty much established that for MTU trade is along the "Mains"
with planets off them seldom visited. I recognize that I'm probably in
the destinct minority on this, but still it's how I thought Traveller
was meant to be played.  

Of course, if you do play it this way, it really does make high jump
ships true breakthroughs. While a Jump 1 ship can *not* get from
Regina to Rylanor takes 10 jumps as it winds it's way down the main to
get to within a Jump 2, a Jump 2 ship can go all the way and do it in
6 jumps, and a Jump 3 ship can do it in 4 jumps. It also means higher
jump number fleets can jump around slower ones. Economically, it opens
up worlds to colonization and trade that couldn't be reached before. 

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 00:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Jun 16 23:24:03 2002
Subject: Why does fule cost so much? (was Re: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs, and Fiefs (was: why does travel...))
In-Reply-To: <B932C417.5F72B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020617062345.F2182279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/16/02 at 10:39 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 6/16/02 5:55 PM, timothyreynolds@earthlink.net at
>timothyreynolds@earthlink.net wrote:

>> 
>> We are also assuming all places havea cracking plant there you
>> may be limited to unrefined at best.

>Why are you extracting hydrogen from hydrocarbons (cracking) if you
>have fusion power and water?  Wouldn't electrolysis be much cheaper,
>cleaner and easier?

I suspect he was using cracking, as I was, as a shorthand for
electrolysis and/or whatever other methods are required to turn water
into fuel. I doubt he meant the sort of hydrocarbon cracking done to
produce gasoline from oil, I know I didn't.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 00:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Sun Jun 16 23:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Environment and Culture
Message-ID: <OF423E24C3.422C5D2C-ON42256BDB.0023D9CC@ko.com>

">it became standard practice for our group to string up a
[deletion]
>Never worked.

If your standard practice never works, maybe you should change the
practice."

It was written into our manual of standard operating procedure. It became
part of The Rules. Who cares if it didn't work :). The company for which we
worked evaluated our problems with suddenly appearing mind-bender spawn of
the devil, liked our solution, and made it grounds for dismissal if we
could not prove that we had used the anti-zhodani hi-jack system whenever
we were boarded by anyone.

Regards

Clint Rynners


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 00:39:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sun Jun 16 23:39:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU Setting
Message-ID: <00cc01c215c9$c176e6c0$ee423b41@customer>

Peter LS Treveor wrote:
<snip a lot of interesting stuff>
>We  could  be  talking  several  family  operations  passed  down
>parent-to-child at least once by *1065* (IGS2 publication date)
<snip more interesting stuff>

Has anyone thought that maybe in 35 yrs from 1065 to 1100, or 55 yrs from
1065 to 1120, that the actual population of Pixie may have grown
significantly.

I mean are the UWP's as static as various sourcebooks would have us think?

John Scarlett
---------------

Frogs can't swallow with their eyes open. - "Real Fact" #42 from snapple.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 00:47:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sun Jun 16 23:47:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo List...the entrants so far
References: <20020617034622.E161C27A92@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00ea01c215ca$c9a1dac0$ee423b41@customer>

I'd be very interested.

John Scarlett
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Rodeo List...the entrants so far


> On 06/16/02 at 08:43 PM,  "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> said:
>
> >> From: Roseberry
> >> 1. Cougar class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
> >> 2. Valuta class Assault Landing Ship--John Kwon
> >> 3. DBZ class Heavy Attack Scout--Dan Roseberry
> >> 4. Cuda class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
> >> 5. Cobra class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
> >> 6. Carronade class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
>
> >All Naval ships.  No civilian ships yet.  Unfortunately my first one
> >is going to be "military", too.
>
> Civilian ship, you  bet!  How long have I got?
>
> I've been thinking about designing a Merchant Scout. A small ship with
> the mission of entering unexplored subsectors and doing market
> evaluation of the systems there.  Crew will have the usual spacers,
> with a 3 or 4 scientists and merchants along as "mission specialists."
> It won't be heavily armed, a couple of turrets with sandcasters and
> lasers, but it will have good sensors and long legs.
>
> Would that interest anyone?
>
> Eris
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 00:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeffrey Malone)
Date: Sun Jun 16 23:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine
References: <20020616.144901.-177063.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c215ca$a0b838c0$5e7054d2@1338700057>

How about:

For perverted hexapod vegetarians
Adventure Yonly2K
K'kree Deviant Sexual Practice
Bizarre anti-exhibitionism amongst the Centaurs

Sub-title 1 - "I can't believe that we're not letting others watch"

Sub-title 2 - "Hindmosts - why not to marry your daughters to fighter
pilots"

J.M. Malone




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 00:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Jun 16 23:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <00cc01c215c9$c176e6c0$ee423b41@customer>
Message-ID: <20020617065520.3D87327AA7@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/17/02 at 02:39 AM,  "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>
said:

>Peter LS Treveor wrote:
><snip a lot of interesting stuff>
>>We  could  be  talking  several  family  operations  passed  down
>>parent-to-child at least once by *1065* (IGS2 publication date)
><snip more interesting stuff>

>Has anyone thought that maybe in 35 yrs from 1065 to 1100, or 55 yrs
>from 1065 to 1120, that the actual population of Pixie may have grown
>significantly.

>I mean are the UWP's as static as various sourcebooks would have us
>think?

Heavens no! <g>  Nothing is written in stone here...don't you agree?
<g>

Eris, 
 the Heretic
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 01:02:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Jun 17 00:02:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEDJCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com>
>
>What is a "Libertine"?  I noticed there's a Mylene Farmer song with that
>title.

That's an early word for "libertarian".

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 01:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Mon Jun 17 00:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Eris' die roller
Message-ID: <000b01c215cf$12971520$2dd3d63f@customer>

Eris

I haven't generated anything yet with your die roller, but the test I've
done have worked very well.
Thank you for sharing your program with the list.

John Scarlett.

PS: I love the FUDGE die, I'm thinking of using FUDGE to help speed up my
various campaigns.  Kinda GURPS: FUDGE type campaigns.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 01:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Jun 17 00:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Eris' die roller
In-Reply-To: <000b01c215cf$12971520$2dd3d63f@customer>
Message-ID: <20020617073045.A04EC279D8@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/17/02 at 03:17 AM,  "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>
said:

>I haven't generated anything yet with your die roller, but the test
>I've done have worked very well.
>Thank you for sharing your program with the list.

John, you're welcome. I'd been thinking about doing that for a long
time. 

>PS: I love the FUDGE die, I'm thinking of using FUDGE to help speed
>up my various campaigns.  Kinda GURPS: FUDGE type campaigns.

Yes, I added the Fudge dice for *me*, but I've had several folks
comment on how much they liked them. <g>


Eris,
 ps. if anyone would like to dl a copy the url is in my sig line.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://erisr.myip.org
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 01:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Jun 17 00:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU Setting
Message-ID: <200206170732.AAA16115@molly.iii.com>

"John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net> writes:

>Has anyone thought that maybe in 35 yrs from 1065 to 1100, or 55 yrs from
>1065 to 1120, that the actual population of Pixie may have grown
>significantly.

Sure.  However, I'd expect all portions of the UWP to reflect the same time,
for the simple reason that updating one and not another would be silly.  This
means, whether or not Pixie currently has 70 people and a class A starport,
at some point it had 70 people and a class A starport.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 01:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Jun 17 00:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick help needed!
In-Reply-To: <200206162340.QAA01268@molly.iii.com>
References: <200206162340.QAA01268@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b93343bca913@[198.123.22.166]>

At 4:40 PM -0700 6/16/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> writes:
>
>>At 4:31 PM -0700 6/15/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>>>In addition, vibro adds 1d6 and gives an
>>>armor divisor of 5
>>
>>Where is this?  It isn't in my copy of Ultra-tech (it does add 1d6
>>but doesn't add an armor divisor).  I don't think Cyberpunk had
>>anything different.
>
>Under vibroblade in my copy of Ultratech?  'Armor protects with 1/5 it's
>normal DR'.  It's not clearly written, but it's there.

Its not in my copy.  You are looking on p24?  I found my copy of 
Cyberpunk (which has it also) and it doesn't say that there either....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 02:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 17 01:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <20020617042806.4292B27ACD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17JrQ7-0001S2-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

> sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
> >
> > Clearly humans don't need to have large families and in the absence
> > of strong economic incentives to do so, and especially in a society
> > which offers economic alternatives to women, they don't.  The
> > Imperium is clearly both technologically advanced and a state where
> > women are relatively free, therefore large populations will be rare
> > (or nonexistent).
> 
> Non sequitur.  You assume that childbearing will be forever looked
> down upon.  It may be that in the future this is not the case.  If,
> for example, artificial wombs were developed, then folks could have as
> many children as they desire.  Or if all those who don't want children
> die out because they don't have children, those remaining obviously
> would...

It's not a matter of it being looked down upon, it is that children 
provide no economic advantage in a high tech society.  If schooling 
and pediatric care is free then the only goods they take up are 
time, food, and entertainment, if pediatric care and schooling are 
not free then they are also even more expensive.  Between TL 4 
and TL 6 children go from providing significant economic benefit, to 
being fairly costly when young and providing no economic benefit.  I 
don't see this changing at higher tech levels, and so stand by my 
statement.  

Cultural attitudes towards children have *nothing* to do with this, 
the drop in birth rate occurs in all developed and developing 
cultures.  For example,  Russia, Spain, Japan, and New Zealand 
have significantly diverse cultures that all have vastly lower 
birthrates than they did 100 or even 50 years ago.   

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
 one of many childfree people in my generation

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 02:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Mon Jun 17 01:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Santanocheev
References: <OFE9F0C5B4.92A4013C-ONCA256BD7.0012A900@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3D0D97D9.30401@yarranet.net.au>

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:

> 
> Has anyone else put all the following together?
>         - Norris is from Naval Intelligence
>         - "Some  time  in  the  past Naval Intelligence had produced  a 
> faulty  prediction  that  had reflected badly on Santanocheev  ...  and 
> thus  NI  was  on  his
> personal enemies list". (from Peter Trevor)
>         - "Recall that Santanocheev was head of INI in the Marches until he became
> sector admiral; Norris and Santanocheev probably worked together before
> Norris became duke in 1095 or so." (Glenn M. Goffin)
>         - "Norris' problem was that Santanocheev had the role _Norris_ wanted. Santy 
> was Sector admiral and had command of all Imperial forces in the sector." 
> (also Glenn)

This stuff is great and highly useful for the game I'm currently running.

It's the Traveller Adventure but I've also been throwing loads of extra 
stuff at the players, some big some small.
One of the bigger things is the Santanocheev/Warrant stuff. Since one of 
the players failed every promotion roll in the Navy he decided he had a 
higher ranking officer as an enemy. I of coarse made this Santanocheev 
and plan to run a flashback of the incident that made him an enemy which 
would have happened some time in the 1080's and allows me to make great 
use of all this.

I am playing a little loose with canon. Norris and Santanocheev are both 
after the warrant on the Kinunir. N knows the other was destroyed or is 
a decoy from S and S is trying to find the old one first because popular 
support will oust him even if the warrant isn't specific.

So far the players have had a run in with Santanocheev and some INI 
officers (the ONI of the future) when falsely accused of an Ine Givar 
bombing that happened when they weren't even on the upport. They've 
chosen to ignore things for now but I will keep sending little teasers 
their way.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/traveller/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 02:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 17 01:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <E17JrQ7-0001S2-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B932EA29.5F7E3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/17/02 12:59 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> 
> Cultural attitudes towards children have *nothing* to do with this,
> the drop in birth rate occurs in all developed and developing
> cultures.  For example,  Russia, Spain, Japan, and New Zealand
> have significantly diverse cultures that all have vastly lower
> birthrates than they did 100 or even 50 years ago.


Ah, but they do.  You're looking at nations as a whole.  Take a look at
birthrate amongst socioeconomic group, or national origin or religious
adherence.  While the nation as a whole may decline, there is wide variation
within that superclass.

I don't disagree with your assertion.  The evidence certainly supports the
idea that economic prosperity and advanced technology acts as a force to
reduce birthrate, but it is probably stretching the case a bit to say that
this holds true for the Imperium as a whole.  For one thing, there are no
great drives to colonize available areas, something that is certainly less
true in parts of the imperium.

No is there necessarily the cultural pressure to reproduce in the first
world (on the contrary, it is seen as a throwback to more primitive ways.)
It may be very different in Traveller space.  For example, there may be
great cultural (as state supported) presure in the Solomani Confederation
for large families to make sure the ghastly aliens don't take over the
civilized space.

Who can say?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 02:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 17 01:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <20020617070604.E881A27AB1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17Jrmy-0000EC-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

> sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > combine that fact with any useful forms of birth control and I don't
> > see there being much in the way of hi pop worlds.
> 
> What stable population would *you* think is more likely?  Why that,
> and not a hundred times more, or a hundred times less?

You can't support more than about a billion people on a earth-like 
world w/o medium tech (TL 5+) farming, so I'm guessing that 
worlds that reverted to pre-industrial states during the Long Night 
will not have more than a few billion people, since their populations 
will stabilize shortly after they reach TL 6 and above. 
 
> If you go by rate of change of population in modern nations, the only
> 'stable' population is zero.  Growth is *negative*.

Very true.  However, Traveller is science fantasy, so I'm willing to 
assume that population growth eventually stabilizes.  I have no idea 
what it *might* do on our world, but it doesn't really matter, I'm 
guessing by between 2050 and 2100 we will see intelligence 
enhancement, artificial intelligence, massive longevity therapy, 
direct-input VR that is indistinguishable from reality, and possibly 
uploading.  If uploading is impossible, we may still end up in 
something that looks like a non-dystopian version of "The Matrix" 
where the difference between AIs and humans in direct-input pods 
is negligible and brith is a fairly abstract concept, or we may evolve 
into one or billions of advanced posthuman beings.  In any case, I 
don't expect us to remain human long enough to have to worry 
about population size too much longer.  Whatever the future will 
look like, it will look *nothing* like Traveller, and I'm not terribly sad 
about that.

Lots of aliens and FTL travel are *really* cool, but becoming an 
immortal hyperintelligent posthuman being is IMHO even better. 

> > In the TU, I firmly maintain that the +2 to TL for pop 9 & +4 to TL
> > for pop A worlds is *not* because higher populations are needed to
> > support higher tech societies, but because higher tech levels are
> > needed to support high populations.
> 
> So you think 1000 people can support a modern TL 7 society?

No, but a couple of 100 million certainly can, and I'm not certain 
that 10,000,000 can't.  Since the number of people needed to 
maintain a given TL almost certainly peaks somewhere around TL 6-
8, even fewer will be needed to support TL 12 or 15.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 02:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 17 01:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <E17JrQ7-0001S2-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B932EAE8.5F7E4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/17/02 12:59 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
> one of many childfree people in my generation

Forgot to add: Parent of two children, despite the economic disadvantages.
And looking forward to grandchildren in my dotage.

One thing about a tendency to refrain from childbearing.  Said tendency
won't be passed on to the next generation <g>.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 02:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Jun 17 01:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <E17Jrmy-0000EC-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <20020617070604.E881A27AB1@mail.travellercentral.com> <E17Jrmy-0000EC-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020617183834.A17684@freeman.little-possums.net>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> Very true.  However, Traveller is science fantasy, so I'm willing to 
> assume that population growth eventually stabilizes.

So am I, but I'm assuming that it stabilizes at a level that is
related to marginal economic costs and benefits, not just an arbitrary
number.


> Lots of aliens and FTL travel are *really* cool, but becoming an
> immortal hyperintelligent posthuman being is IMHO even better.

Oh yes, definitely.  If it weren't for the richness of detail already
developed in Traveller, I'd ditch it in a heartbeat and go for a
setting that *really* makes use of technology, and explore the various
sociological and individual implications.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 03:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Jun 17 02:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <m31yb67ibq.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206170204510.9816-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On 16 Jun 2002, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

> sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
> >
> > Clearly humans don't need to have large families and in the absence
> > of strong economic incentives to do so, and especially in a society
> > which offers economic alternatives to women, they don't.  The
> > Imperium is clearly both technologically advanced and a state where
> > women are relatively free, therefore large populations will be rare
> > (or nonexistent).
> 
> Non sequitur.  You assume that childbearing will be forever looked
> down upon.  It may be that in the future this is not the case.  

Childbearing isn't generally looked down upon; in fact, in this society,
it is idolized to the point where women who have had painful, difficult
and high risk pregnancies are routinely encouraged to "try again" at great
risk to their lives.  When I had my tubes tied after several unsuccessful
pregnancies, the final one of which nearly culminated in my death by
exsanguination, a number of people were aghast that I would do such a
thing.  I see women with medical histories like mine in the transplant
unit all the time; having braved multiple episodes of preeclampsia, they
have finally gone into renal failure.

However, it is true that wider career opportunities for women, higher
education for women, and higher standards of living almost always lead to
smaller family sizes.  That's because women do enjoy doing OTHER things
with their lives, even if they also like having children, and also because
it takes more resources to maintain a high standard of living with extra
mouths to feed.  Humans seem to be a crisis-breeding species.  Early
pregnancy is most common in situations where people feel their own lives
are essentially over and done; young girls don't have babies in high
school unless they have pretty much given up on their own futures.  Poor
girls have babies and wealthier girls have abortions or give their babies
up for adoption.

It's just not very much in keeping with what we know about humans to
assume that there will be large families at high TL's unless there is a
patriarchal culture that reduces opportunities for women to have other
careers.

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 03:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 17 02:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206170204510.9816-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <B932FC20.5F7F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/17/02 2:12 AM, Kiri Aradia Morgan at tiamat@tsoft.com wrote:

> 
> It's just not very much in keeping with what we know about humans to
> assume that there will be large families at high TL's unless there is a
> patriarchal culture that reduces opportunities for women to have other
> careers.

Ouch!  That almost feels like trolling.  You seem to assume that large
families will only exist if men keep women 'down', or did I misunderstand?

Does that mean that matriarchal societies will end childbearing? Or that in
the Traveller universe that there can't be societies where childrearing
can't be a shared or even exclusively male responsibility? This is the 57th
century, after all.  In a Traveller universe where higher tech inhabitants
can expect plenty of leisure time and a life relatively free from want it
may even become fashionable for one or both parents to play that role full
time.  And be lauded for it.

There are many parents, male and female, who would gladly sacrifice career
for family if it were economically viable. Having a career in preference to
a family does not indicate superior culture, IMHO. And women who choose to
have children are not somehow less that those who pursue a professional
career.  

(Comments from a male who is the primary child rearer, while mom travels and
otherwise pursues her career.)
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 08:54:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Huscroft)
Date: Mon Jun 17 07:54:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020617133535.17567B-100000@suma3>

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> My GT campaign is currently set in the Spinward Marches, and the PCs
> travelled to Rhylanor last session. I think I wasted about 5-10 minutes
> describing the amazing high-tech towers, orbital habitats and so on. I
> says wasted because the first thing anyone said when I ran out of
> breath was "so where are the high-tech gun shops at?" Sometimes I think
> that maybe I should just give up and go back to running D&D. <sigh>


Go back to running D&D?  Well, perhaps it won't seem quite so painful if
you make it look like this...

http://www.takarlis.demon.co.uk/traveller/evil.gif

--
Alan Huscroft     A.A.F.Huscroft@reading.ac.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 08:57:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Jun 17 07:57:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Unboring Ship Rodeo
Message-ID: <200206171414.IQP10616@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jeff Zeitlin, I give permission for you to post the Valuta 
and Chukkar on Freelance Traveller (if they're not too 
boring).
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 08:59:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Mon Jun 17 07:59:45 2002
Subject: [TML] BBC E-mail: Australian teleport breakthrough
Message-ID: <200206171345.g5HDjZJ00283@gateg.kw.bbc.co.uk>

Jeff Rowse saw this story on BBC News Online and thought you should see it.

------------
Message:

I say!	Those damned colonials will be sending themselves back quicker
than we can dump 'em!  Bring back the Thames Hulks, that's what I say!

Jeff (*Still* unique - aren't you lucky?)

"Hastur? Hastur? Is there a Hastur inthe house?  Oh bugger..."
------------

*Australian teleport breakthrough*
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_2049000/204904=
8.stm>

A team of Australian scientists says it is able to teleport a laser
beam from one place to another almost instantaneously.



BBC Daily E-mail
Choose the news and sport headlines you want - when you want them, all in o=
ne daily e-mail
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/dailyemail/>

Disclaimer: The BBC is not responsible for the content of this e-mail, and =
anything said in this e-mail does not necessarily reflect the BBC's views.

If you don't wish to receive such mails in the future, please e-mail webmas=
ters@bbc.co.uk making sure you include the following text:=20
I do not want to receive "E-mail a friend" mailings.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 09:05:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ewan Duncan Quibell)
Date: Mon Jun 17 08:05:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Limited Jumps (was Rodeo Entry:  Makiidi class bulk trader)
References: <20020617062025.8D1FC27A7B@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D0DBC95.4080503@brighton.ac.uk>

Hi Eris,

Interesting theory, and it dose make for more interesting tactics 
and strategy in Trade/War on the interstellar level. But how would you 
explain things like the First Imperium existing on just Jump 1 ? I 
haven't looked but there must be a break in the mains somewhere 
throughout their territory before they reached Jump 2.

Best Regards

Ewan

 
> Well, maybe. Can you jump to "empty hexes?"
> 
> When I started running Traveller in 1977, I only had the first 3 LBB
> to go on, and nowhere in there (that I found at the time, or since)
> was there an answer to that question. My assumption then was that you
> could not, you had to jump from "system to system." When I got
> Adventure One, the entry about The Battle of the Two Suns taking place
> "midway between" the two systems really bothered me...it seemed to
> indicate you could jump to some point that wasn't a "system", but
> never explained what in the world two fleets were doing out way out
> there in empty space, so I decided to ignore it. IAC, over the years
> I've pretty much established that for MTU trade is along the "Mains"
> with planets off them seldom visited. I recognize that I'm probably in
> the destinct minority on this, but still it's how I thought Traveller
> was meant to be played.  
> 
> Of course, if you do play it this way, it really does make high jump
> ships true breakthroughs. While a Jump 1 ship can *not* get from
> Regina to Rylanor takes 10 jumps as it winds it's way down the main to
> get to within a Jump 2, a Jump 2 ship can go all the way and do it in
> 6 jumps, and a Jump 3 ship can do it in 4 jumps. It also means higher
> jump number fleets can jump around slower ones. Economically, it opens
> up worlds to colonization and trade that couldn't be reached before. 
> 
> Eris



-- 
  Ewan Quibell                    They shall grow not old,
  Senior Communications Engineer      as we that are left grow old;
  Network Services                Age shall not weary them,
  University of Brighton              nor the years condemn.
                                  At the going down of the sun
  E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk          and in the morning
                                  We will remember them.
  #include<stddisclaimer.h>                           Laurence Binyon

  My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typos, and poetic license



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 09:07:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon Jun 17 08:07:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick help needed!
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b93343bca913@[198.123.22.166]>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEENBHOAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

David P. Summers wrote :
> At 4:40 PM -0700 6/16/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> >"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> writes:
> >>At 4:31 PM -0700 6/15/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> >>>In addition, vibro adds 1d6 and gives an
> >>>armor divisor of 5
> >> Where is this?  It isn't in my copy of Ultra-tech 
> >> (it does add 1d6 but doesn't add an armor divisor).  
> >> I don't think Cyberpunk had anything different.
> >
> >Under vibroblade in my copy of Ultratech?  
> >'Armor protects with 1/5 it's normal DR'.  
> > It's not clearly written, but it's there.
> 
> Its not in my copy.  You are looking on p24?  I found 
> my copy of Cyberpunk (which has it also) and it doesn't 
> say that  there either....

further data points :

In "GURPS CyberPunk" on page 48 it says a vibroblade adds 1d. 

The vibro-blade doesn't appear at all in Ultra-Tech 2.

I don't have Ultra-Tech.

Frankie


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 09:10:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Mon Jun 17 08:10:53 2002
Subject: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs, and Fiefs (was: why does travel...)
References: <20020617021229.9D37B27AB9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D0DCE1D.CC234712@earthlink.net>

Daniel Tackett posted:
>
> Speaking of "why does travel cost so much", I don't understand why
> hydrogen, in the Traveller Universe, in the far future costs 500
> credits per ton!  We're talking real money to refuel a scout ship!
> Is skimming a gas giant or sumping from an ocean such a big a deal
> that people would rather pay than bother?  Or am I just missing
> something?

In addition to what Robert Uhl posted re: use of unrefined fuel,
there's the RealLift(tm) problem of hard radiation that can flow
through a gas giant's magnetic field because of the existence
of moons. 

For instance, the radiation in an area around Jupiter is so bad,
there can never be a manned landing on its moon Io (given today's
tech).

The reason for this is Io cuts cross Jupiter's magnetic field lines, 
generating an electric current. Though small compared to tidal 
heating, this current may carry more than 1 trillion watts. It strips
some material away from Io which forms the torus of intense radiation
around Jupiter.

Equipment can survive this environment (witness the Galileo probe) but
people can't.

David


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 09:14:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Mon Jun 17 08:14:29 2002
Subject: [TML] CHAUCHAT Prototype Close Escort
In-Reply-To: <B932C235.5F729%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020616163456.009d7370@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3D0E90E4.14991.FF9EF0@localhost>

On 16 Jun 2002, at 22:31, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 6/16/02 2:34 PM, Leslie Bates at lesbates@minn.net wrote:
> 
> > Comments:       CHAUCHAT (named after a light machine gun used by one of the
> > nations on the winning side of the First Terran World War)
> 
> You do know that the Chauchat was probably the worst machinegun ever made? --

I've seen a number of recent publications that indicate that the much 
maligned CSRG was not quite as bad as most people think. Most of its 
bad reputation stems from the 30-06 M1918 model which was specifically 
manufactured in France for the US Army. Only the manufacturer got the 
chamber dimensions wrong, and not surprisingly they failed miserably. But 
this version was only issued in trial quantities.

The M1915 in 8mm Lebel generally functioned far better. Sure its recoil 
made it shake uncontrollably and it was prone to jam (though it usually 
could be cleared simply by pulling the bolt handle). But it was a functional 
weapon as long as you didn't try to use it for sustained fire.

ObTrav (or anything else for that matter): The Isandlwana ammunition 
boxes phenomenon (even well informed experts can get it wrong).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 09:17:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Mon Jun 17 08:17:17 2002
Subject: Proximity Fuse Jammers (was cell phones (was Re: [TML] VRF Shotgun?))
Message-ID: <F189TK7XP5Q4So7CiaG000233f0@hotmail.com>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
>on 6/12/02 12:44 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> >
> > One that I'm interested in:  they say that the US has a
> > jammer that works on VT fuses.  It causes premature
> > detonation.
>
>That's been around since the 1950's.  It only works on RADAR VT fuses.

I have a contact in the US military who told me about
a proximity fuse jammer last year.  He was a bit excited
about it, which made me think it was a new thing - it
was a backpack-sized unit.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 09:22:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Jun 17 08:22:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick help needed!
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b93343bca913@[198.123.22.166]>
References: <200206162340.QAA01268@molly.iii.com>
 <200206162340.QAA01268@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020617080116.009f2280@mindspring.com>

At 12:47 AM 6/17/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Its not in my copy.  You are looking on p24?  I found my copy of Cyberpunk 
>(which has it also) and it doesn't say that there either....

Third paragraph, the one that starts "Turning on the vibro effect..."  The 
last sentence reads" "DR protects at 1/5 value versus vibroblades." 
(Ultratech, second edition, p. 24)


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents. They grab the best
food at the table without thought of sharing. They trample on their
parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.  --Socrates, c. 5th century BC



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 09:24:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Jun 17 08:24:21 2002
Subject: [TML] LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine
In-Reply-To: <000f01c215ca$a0b838c0$5e7054d2@1338700057>
References: <20020616.144901.-177063.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020617075551.009f1cb0@mindspring.com>

At 04:44 PM 6/17/02 +1000, you wrote:

>Bizarre anti-exhibitionism amongst the Centaurs
>
>Sub-title 1 - "I can't believe that we're not letting others watch"

I sent some characters to a K'kree wedding once. It was interesting when 
the ceremony ended with the groom mounting his bride. Their host, Stampy 
the Angry K'kree was grossly insulted when one of the characters commented 
that public copulation was a bit out of his experience.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry                gridlore@mindspring.com
     http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
       http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

I have no problem with secondary sexual characteristics.
It's just the ones that look glued on that bother me.
                         --Rose (http://i.am/rwp/)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 09:26:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Jun 17 08:26:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <20020617065520.3D87327AA7@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <00cc01c215c9$c176e6c0$ee423b41@customer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020617080426.009f6c60@mindspring.com>

At 01:55 AM 6/17/02 -0500, you wrote:

> >I mean are the UWP's as static as various sourcebooks would have us
> >think?
>
>Heavens no! <g>  Nothing is written in stone here...don't you agree?
><g>

Eris, I'm going to jump on the heretical band wagon here.

Not only would I like to see some of the world descriptions changed to 
reflect the difference between 1106 and 1120, I would like to see Behind 
The Claw, 2nd Ed, fix a lot of the problems in the Spinward Marches.  Too 
many worlds strain at the edge of scientific possibility. You can only wave 
you hands so many times before your arms fall off!  The occasional "isn't 
that odd" world is fine, but entire subsectors off them.. gah.

I'd help write such a project, if it ever came about.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 09:32:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Simon Brodie)
Date: Mon Jun 17 08:32:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: 69 again . . .
References: <121.127e1dea.2a3e9dc3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003501c2160b$a67f3100$a068ff3e@bloodyhellfire>

I attended an engineering course with a course number of '69'.  We managed
to get the course emblem as Jessica Rabbit with the logo 'I'll soon have you
licked into shape'.  It only now strikes me as slightly weird why we went
for a cartoon rabbit instead of a 'flesh and blood' lass.

strange huh?

Si
----- Original Message -----
From: <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 17 June 2002 3:04 AM
Subject: [TML] Re: 69 again . . .


> OK, let's try that again:
>
>
> >At 1:40 PM -0700 6/15/02, Douglas Berry wrote:
>
> >>OK, so who else has done Supplement/Adventure 69?
> >>
> >>I've done Supplement 69: Sex and the Single Vargr
> >
> >Maybe everyone did a supplement 69.  I did a "The Nude Beaches of
> >Rigel" supplement and replaces "For GMs Only" with "For Nudists Only".
>
>
> I _graduated_ in 1969 . . . they wouldn't take my suggestion for a class
> motto, however. "Sixty-Nine is Mighty Fine!"
>
> LKW
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 09:38:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Jun 17 08:38:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <20020617151030.D16821@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020617090308.A16385@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEBHEBAA.carlino@cox.net>
 <20020617151030.D16821@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <m3sn3mdltm.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> 
> OK, I can well believe that.  I don't have either book, but thought
> I read somewhere else in the mountain of Traveller material that
> "Na" means that a world depends upon food imports.  This seemed to
> be backed up by Far Trader's rules increasing trade between Ag and
> Na worlds by a factor of three(!)

That increased trade is enough for the rich to get their real
food--not enough for the entire population.  It also means that a Na
world without a nearby Ag world isn't going to have much real food.
Perhaps a single pea every other year for the local head of state...

When travtrack and travlib incorporate the GT:FT rules, I'm going to
include the ability to calculate trade between _all_ worlds.  Granted,
for two on far ends of the Imperium it'll work out to a ton per
decade, but still it'll be there.

One of these days...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A doctor can bury his mistakes but an architect can only advise his
clients to plant vines.                        --Frank Lloyd Wright

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 09:41:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Jun 17 08:41:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <E17JrQ7-0001S2-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <E17JrQ7-0001S2-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <m3ofeadlfz.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
> 
> It's not a matter of it being looked down upon, it is that children
> provide no economic advantage in a high tech society.

In our high tech society, in which children are not allowed to work,
yes.  Not necessarily so for others.  In a welfare society, in which
each new citizen is a drain on all rather than an asset to all, yes.
Not necessarily so for others.

If anything, I beleive we'll need to start encouraging reproduction.
As it stands now, the best and brightest (well, brighter anyway) are
being out-bred by the dumb & the foolish.  That's hardly the way to
go.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Nobody ever got fired for choosing Microsoft.  Nobody ever looked stupid
for choosing Linux.                                         --Jebediah21

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 09:43:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Jun 17 08:43:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206170204510.9816-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206170204510.9816-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <m3k7oydl6m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> writes:
> 
> It's just not very much in keeping with what we know about humans to
> assume that there will be large families at high TL's unless there
> is a patriarchal culture that reduces opportunities for women to
> have other careers.

Or the women who don't want (or can't have) children don't have
them--and thus die out.  Leaving those who do and can.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
He was opposed to the use of force.  Force, he believed, was the last
resort of incompetence; he had said so frequently enough since this
operation had begun.  Of course, he was absolutely right, though not in
the way he meant.  Only the incompetent wait until the last extremity to
use force, and by then, it is usually too late to use anything, even
prayer.                                              --H. Beam Piper

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 09:46:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Jun 17 08:46:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why does fule cost so much?
In-Reply-To: <20020617062345.F2182279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020617144018.99175.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>

    A lot of good and interesting points brought up on
this subject. I wonder how much a dton of Hydrogen
costs on present day earth. 
    However, what if I were to set up a
refining/refueling station in orbit around a popular
gas giant,with a ships boat that goes back and forth
to the gas giant and broadcast an advertisement to all
incoming ships saying "come and get it"? I don't have
to travel to the homeworld and I would be a boon to
passenger liners and people in a hurry. I would just
be a gas station floating in space, and I think my
facilities would pay for themselves quickly. The
stuff's free after all. The problem I see right now,
though is the amount of space I would need on my
spacestation to hold all the fuel to meet the needs of
larger ships.
All comments appreciated, thanks.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 09:50:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Jun 17 08:50:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <B932FC20.5F7F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B932FC20.5F7F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3fzzmdkyg.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> There are many parents, male and female, who would gladly sacrifice
> career for family if it were economically viable.

Aye.  The only point to a job IMHO is to enable one to pay for what
one does when not working, and one of those activities is raising a
family.  `Career' is way over-rated.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone.  `I wonder where
Bob got the plutonium' is better than most get.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 10:11:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Jun 17 09:11:12 2002
Subject: [TML] West Rodeo entry #1
In-Reply-To: <3D0D4830.C06CFF5B@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <000001c21619$751b92d0$0b01a8c0@duck>

I ran the Traveller Adventure (actually I ran one episode of the Traveller
Adventure and then spent 2 RT years trying to keep ahead of my players) and
they used the March Harrier  for much of those adventures.  Running the
numbers, we quickly realized that there was waste space in the engineering
compartment of the Type R.  The new goal of the players was to raise enough
money to fill that space.  The result is below.

They rarely carried passengers, and so the staterooms were typically used
for patrons, clients, rescuees and so forth.  The real pity is that it was
so long ago that I have no notes and can't remember most of the details.
But everyone seemed to have a good time.

(Eventually they raise enough money to get a "real" ship.  I have long since
lost that design.  Pity.)

Large Merchant (type R2): (Book 2!)
Using a 400-ton standard hull, the large merchant (nicknamed far fat or
"farft" trader) is a trading vessel intended to meet the comercial needs of
dispersed clusters of worlds.  (Actually is is intended to meet the needs of
a group of players tired of only having jump-1.)  It has jump drive-D,
maneuver drive-E and power plant-E, giving jump-2 and 2-G acceleration.
Fuel tankage for 100 tons supports the power plant and allows one jump-2.
Adjacent to the bridge is a computer Model/1bis.  There are thirteen
staterooms and ten low berths.  The ship has two hardpoints and two tons set
aside for fire control.  No weapons are mounted.  There is one ship's
vehicle: a 20-ton launch.  Cargo capacity is 150 tons.  The ship is
streamlined.
The farft trader requires a crew of five: pilot, navigator, engineer, medic
and steward.  Up to two gunners may be added.  The pilot operates the
launch.  The ship can carry eight high or middle passengers and thirteen low
passengers.  The ship costs MCr143.2 and takes 14 months to build.

The launch can carry eight passengers and a pilot, plus 9 tons of cargo.
The launch is capable of 2-G acceleration.  (This trades one ton of cargo
for a bigger engine over the standard launch.)

My players' ship had two dual beam laser turrets.  This would add MCr5 to
the cost above.

For floor plans, use the plans in the Traveller Adventure (or in Double
Adventure 5 or in Supplement 7) unmodified, except that the 50 demountable
fuel tanks effectively become permanent.

Book 5 descriptions:
"April Hare" R2-42222R1-000000-20000-0  MCr 148.2 400 tons
Book 2 Design     2 batteries Crew-6 TL=11
Passengers=8 Low=10 Fuel=100 Cargo=150 EP=8 Agility=1

"Bunny" LB-0102201-000000-00000-0 MCr 14 20 tons
Crew=1 TL=11 Passengers=8 Cargo=9 Fuel=1 EP=.4 Agility=2

P.S.  Permission is specifically granted to Jeff Zeitlin to publish this
design on Freelance Traveller if he so desires.

Mike West
mjwest@caddocourt.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 10:20:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Jun 17 09:20:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Crew allocations - minimums
Message-ID: <200206171618.IQU00513@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'm working on a few more ships for the rodeo, and one thing 
strikes me as odd.  In RL, there is a Coast Guard approved 
minimum crew, and ships are usually listed with the desired 
crew and the minimum crew.  I'm looking at some really nice 
cargo ships that I could translate into ships for the rodeo, 
but if I use the CT or HG crew requirements, the ship ends up 
with a crew in the hundreds (huge number of engineers).

There are some cargo ships nearly as large as an aircraft 
carrier that have Coast Guard minimum crews of 26, and a 
desired crew of 48.  I could see this being some PCs and 
supplement with some NPCs (still a smaller crew size than the 
Leviathan).  But the ship is vast - in RL, 900 feet long.

I'm also wondering if I can count robots as crew.  Is it 
really all that interesting or necessary to have 100 human 
engineers aboard?  Or a background of robots running 
everywhere?

Does anyone have any "better" ideas on crew minimums in the 
Far Future?
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 10:23:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Jun 17 09:23:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <B932FC20.5F7F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206170912020.7097-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 6/17/02 2:12 AM, Kiri Aradia Morgan at tiamat@tsoft.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> > It's just not very much in keeping with what we know about humans to
> > assume that there will be large families at high TL's unless there is a
> > patriarchal culture that reduces opportunities for women to have other
> > careers.
> 
> Ouch!  That almost feels like trolling.  You seem to assume that large
> families will only exist if men keep women 'down', or did I misunderstand?

I didn't say that at all, but if you feel like reading it that way, it's
not my problem.

Large families exist today; however, they exist in fewer numbers than they
did when there was no way to prevent conception and no way for women to do
anything else with their lives.  

> Does that mean that matriarchal societies will end childbearing?

Don't be silly.  We are talking about the prevalence of LARGE families.
Most people in technologically advanced societies do choose to have 1-2
children, but few choose to have more than 3-4 because beyond that point
it's very hard to actually enjoy them.

>  Or that in the Traveller universe that there can't be societies where
> childrearing can't be a shared or even exclusively male
> responsibility?

If men could nurse and women were never left disabled after childbearing,
or if uterine replicators were put into general use, I could see this
happening.  As long as most of the physical consequences fall upon
females, females will probably continue to be the primary caregivers.

> There are many parents, male and female, who would gladly sacrifice career
> for family if it were economically viable.

IF.  IF is a big word, Tod.  You're supporting our point.  :)

> Having a career in preference to a family does not indicate superior
> culture, IMHO. And women who choose to have children are not somehow
> less that those who pursue a professional career.

I don't think I ever said any of those things.  I'm not making moral
judgements.  I'm making observations of what has tended to happen,
historically, in the past.

Personally, I think there are far too many children in this society who
do not receive full-time parenting from anybody; the situation would be
vastly improved if they received it from anyone, be that male, female, or
telekinetic green tree frog with a lightsaber.

Kiri  :)
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 10:26:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Jun 17 09:26:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: 69 again . . .
In-Reply-To: <003501c2160b$a67f3100$a068ff3e@bloodyhellfire>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206170922450.7097-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Simon Brodie wrote:

> I attended an engineering course with a course number of '69'.  We managed
> to get the course emblem as Jessica Rabbit with the logo 'I'll soon have you
> licked into shape'.  It only now strikes me as slightly weird why we went
> for a cartoon rabbit instead of a 'flesh and blood' lass.

Ah, but Jessica's only a lagomorph by marriage...

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 10:51:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Jun 17 09:51:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206170912020.7097-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206170912020.7097-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <m34rg1df4g.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> writes:
> 
> Personally, I think there are far too many children in this society
> who do not receive full-time parenting from anybody; the situation
> would be vastly improved if they received it from anyone, be that
> male, female, or telekinetic green tree frog with a lightsaber.

I dunno--telekinetic green tree frogs are notoriously untrustworthy...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
But there ain't many troubles that a man can't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 11:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Jun 17 10:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <m34rg1df4g.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206171000280.7097-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On 17 Jun 2002, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

> Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> writes:
> > 
> > Personally, I think there are far too many children in this society
> > who do not receive full-time parenting from anybody; the situation
> > would be vastly improved if they received it from anyone, be that
> > male, female, or telekinetic green tree frog with a lightsaber.
> 
> I dunno--telekinetic green tree frogs are notoriously untrustworthy...
> 
Yes, they do a really bad job sometimes, but at least they do something.

I am just tired of yupster couples with baby as latest lifestyle
accessory. 

It really gets annoying.

Kiri, who will take someone's head off if she hears one more person whine
about having to pay $10 for a ticket to take a baby into a movie theater
at 10 pm.  Hello?

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 11:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Mon Jun 17 10:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
Message-ID: <3D0E16EE.353C343@ameritech.net>

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:25:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>


> Because if it wasn't stagnant, the 3I would be filled with 11,000 
> worlds with a minimum TL of C and a minimum population of 100,000,000.

I fail to see how this necesarily follows. The US has a dynamic economy
and it isn't composed entirely of cities the size of Detroit or larger
and not all production is at TL 8. 

Sorry if this is old discussion by now. I'm just getting caught up from
a busy weekend.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 11:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Jun 17 10:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Canon Question
In-Reply-To: <200206171618.IQU00513@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020617114006.009e4dd0@minn.net>

Is there any canonical rule in CT for the cost of converting fuel tankage
to cargo space?


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 11:13:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Jun 17 10:13:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Sending Again: Canon Question
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020617121159.009e4cc0@minn.net>

Is there any canonical rule in CT for the cost of converting fuel tankage
to cargo space?


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 11:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 17 10:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <a2.2732812f.2a3f73c5@aol.com>

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In a message dated 17/06/02 08:04:02 GMT Daylight Time, 
gmgoffin@earthlink.net writes:


> >From: "J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com>
> >
> >What is a "Libertine"?  I noticed there's a Mylene Farmer song with that
> >title.
> 
> That's an early word for "libertarian".
> 
> --Glenn
> 

Not quite :)

According to my trusty OED a libertine is a person who (1) freely engages in 
sensual pleasures or (2) is a freethinker in matters of religion. It derives 
from Middle English and originally denoted a freed slave or the son of one - 
from the Latin "libertinus" (freedman). Latin "liber" (free), influenced by 
the French "libertin".

A libertarian on the other hand is (1) an adherent of libertarianism (defined 
as "an extreme laissez-faire political philosophy advocating only minimal 
state intervention in the lives of citizens") or (2) a person who advocates 
civil liberty or (3) a person who believes in free will. Libertarian appeared 
in the C18 and is derived from "liberty", patterned on words such as 
"unitarian".

Since I'm unfamiliar with the song I assume she's singing about free thinking 
clergymen ;)
 
Charles

"Rule One: Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly 
smiling men!"

Terry Pratchett, The Thief of Time

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 17/06/02 08:04:02 GMT Daylight Time, gmgoffin@earthlink.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;From: "J-Man" &lt;j-man@attbi.com&gt;<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;What is a "Libertine"?&nbsp; I noticed there's a Mylene Farmer song with that<BR>
&gt;title.<BR>
<BR>
That's an early word for "libertarian".<BR>
<BR>
--Glenn<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Not quite :)<BR>
<BR>
According to my trusty OED a libertine is a person who (1) freely engages in sensual pleasures or (2) is a freethinker in matters of religion. It derives from Middle English and originally denoted a freed slave or the son of one - from the Latin "libertinus" (freedman). Latin "liber" (free), influenced by the French "libertin".<BR>
<BR>
A libertarian on the other hand is (1) an adherent of libertarianism (defined as "an extreme laissez-faire political philosophy advocating only minimal state intervention in the lives of citizens") or (2) a person who advocates civil liberty or (3) a person who believes in free will. Libertarian appeared in the C18 and is derived from "liberty", patterned on words such as "unitarian".<BR>
<BR>
Since I'm unfamiliar with the song I assume she's singing about free thinking clergymen ;)<BR>
 <BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
"Rule One: Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly smiling men!"<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett, The Thief of Time</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 11:23:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 17 10:23:41 2002
Subject: Proximity Fuse Jammers (was cell phones (was Re: [TML] VRF
 Shotgun?))
In-Reply-To: <F189TK7XP5Q4So7CiaG000233f0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9336904.5F8A8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/17/02 6:52 AM, Walt Smith at firelock_ny@hotmail.com wrote:

>> 
>> That's been around since the 1950's.  It only works on RADAR VT fuses.
> 
> I have a contact in the US military who told me about
> a proximity fuse jammer last year.  He was a bit excited
> about it, which made me think it was a new thing - it
> was a backpack-sized unit.
> 

That could be.  I've only seen a vehicle mounted type.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 11:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Jun 17 10:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEDJCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>I sent some characters to a K'kree wedding once. It was interesting when
>the ceremony ended with the groom mounting his bride. Their host, Stampy
>the Angry K'kree was grossly insulted when one of the characters commented
>that public copulation was a bit out of his experience.

Because K'kree are herd sophonts, I would not expect weddings between one
male and one female.  Consider this famous K'kree joke:

An old male K'kree and a young male K'kree were walking up a hill.  When
they got to the top, they looked down and saw a valley where about 50 female
K'kree were grazing.  The young male became quite excited and said, "Hey,
why don't we run down there and have sex with one of those females?"  The
older K'kree answered, "No, I have a better idea.  Let's walk down there and
have sex with all of them."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 11:27:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Mon Jun 17 10:27:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Limited Jumps (was Rodeo Entry:  Makiidi class bulk trader)
In-Reply-To: <20020617062025.8D1FC27A7B@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020617062025.8D1FC27A7B@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3d100d76.9984821@post.demon.co.uk>

"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com> writes:

>Well, maybe. Can you jump to "empty hexes?"
>
>Of course, if you do play it this way, it really does make high jump
>ships true breakthroughs.=20

I know it's not strictly canon, but I've worked on the assumption that
the Vilani didn't jump to empty hexes.  It seems the the only way to
explain why they colonised sector after sector to rim-trailing of
Vland, before they ever found a way across that little jump-two rift a
few parsecs to core-spinward.  It also explains why such a big deal is
made out of the Spinward Main and similar mains.  And finally, it
explains why in the game Imperium, warships can only go along jump-2
tramlines between stars, rather than jumping to empty space then to
any star they like.

In my "Secret History of Jumpdrive" alternative history which inspired
the design, I worked on the assumption that the Vilani jumpdrive
couldn't go to empty hexes, but the Solomani version (now standard in
the 3I) could. =20

If you don't like that idea, then the economics of a ferry-type ship
really depend on whether it's more cost efficient to fill a quarter of
your cargo hold (on a Type A) with collapsible fuel tanks and take two
weeks to jump,  or make the jump in one week with a full hold and pay
the ferry operator a fee.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 11:30:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 17 10:30:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <a2.2732812f.2a3f73c5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B933697C.5F8A9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/17/02 10:17 AM, CHam628781@aol.com at CHam628781@aol.com wrote:

>>What is a "Libertine"?  I noticed there's a Mylene Farmer song with that
>>title.

> That's an early word for "libertarian".

> --Glenn


> Not quite :)

> According to my trusty OED a libertine is a person who (1) freely engages in

I think that was supposed to be humor
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 11:33:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Jun 17 10:33:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Limited Jumps (was Rodeo Entry:  Makiidi class bulk trader)
In-Reply-To: <3D0DBC95.4080503@brighton.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <20020617172913.AABE227B20@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/17/02 at 11:40 AM,  Ewan Duncan Quibell
<E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk> said:

>Interesting theory, and it dose make for more interesting tactics 
>and strategy in Trade/War on the interstellar level. But how would
>you  explain things like the First Imperium existing on just Jump 1 ?
>I  haven't looked but there must be a break in the mains somewhere 
>throughout their territory before they reached Jump 2.

Ewan,

Remember, I started with Traveller in late 1977, and MTU was well
established before anything about the First Imperium was published. 
So, as details built up over the years the OTU and MTU drifted further
and further apart and it became harder and harder to reconcile
everything about mine and GDW's.  That doesn't mean I didn't try, and
I have come up with several "answers" for your question over the
years. Here are the five:

1.  Until Jump 2 is developed, the only way across a 2+
    parsec gap is by stl.  This leads to lots and lots of
    small, and mostly independent, states.  The First
    Imperium can still exist, but now it is a collection of
    states held together by a common culture that moves and
    changes very, very slowly to accomidate the time it
    takes to *physically* move from one cluster to another.
    
    You end up with a very "spotty" empire of a cluster of
    worlds here and a sting of worlds there, and lots, and
    lots of unexplored worlds off the "mainline."
    
    It also explains how a huge empire couldn't crush the
    Terran Confederation and how a move to Jump 2 by the
    Terrans allowed them to defeat the First Imperium in
    detail, but by itself it doesn't explain how the
    Terrians and the Vilani ran into each other in the first
    place.

2.  Not all empty hexes are empty.  In a few of these hexes
    you can find dark bodies that can be used as jump
    targets.  However, the dark bodies are extremely hard to
    find and it takes years and years of stl exploration to
    determine if one is there, locate it well enough to
    jump to it, and develop it as a "way station."  
    
    This was my explanation for "The Battle of Two Suns",
    the Zho had found one of these way points and was
    developing it as a secret "jumping off point" for their
    invasion of the Marches.  This also allows you to have
    the Vilani connect some mains and clusters with jump 1
    ships, while having others reachable only by slow boats.
    
3.  An "ancient", but long gone, civilization left behind a
    few jump gates.  These jump gates are large fixed
    installations with "unknown" technology.  If you poke at
    them too hard they either stop working or go *boom* and
    then stop working, so the Vilani have learned to just
    use, and not tinker with them.  
    
    There aren't many of these jump gates, but the few that
    have been found connect several of the jump 1 mains and
    clusters that extend from Deneb, through Core and down
    toward the Rim...explaining why that area has developed
    as it has.
    
4.  Pushing it.  Although a Jump 1 drive is built to take a
    ship a maximum of 1 parsec, it can be "pushed" to take
    it 2.  This is much more dangerous, much more prone to
    all sorts of misjumps, and tends to burn your jump
    drives out very quickly, but it *can* be done.  Thus the
    Vilani could bridge Jump 2 distances, but with danger
    and difficulty and *no* chance of doing it with a
    coordinated fleet jump. 
    
5.  Pushing it, with a plus drive.  Between each of the
    whole jump numbers there is another drive advance:  1,
    1+, 2, 2+, etc.  The advance from 1 to 1+ means you can
    make Jump 1's normally, but you can now attempt the
    "push" I described above.  
    
    The Vilani had made it to 1+ by the time they ran into
    the Terrians.  Most of their ships were still Jump 1,
    though, and their districts centered around mains and
    clusters that were still very isolated from each other,
    and the movement of fleet elements was still very
    constrained.  The Terrians beat them to true Jump 2 and
    then to Jump 2+, and thus jumped rings around them by
    the Nth Interstellar War.
    
Of course, you could combine several of the above techniques into a
mix if you wanted.  I do.  Now days, I tend toward a combination of a
few empty hex jump points and Jump Plus for my games, leaving Jump
Gates to the realm of myth...not that there couldn't be some out
there, somewhere. 

Does this answer your question?

Eris,
    the Heretic
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 11:38:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Jun 17 10:38:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <3D0E16EE.353C343@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1024335026.6838.ajackson@ping>

David Shayne writes:
> Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:25:02 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
> 
> 
> > Because if it wasn't stagnant, the 3I would be filled with 11,000 
> > worlds with a minimum TL of C and a minimum population of 100,000,000.
> 
> I fail to see how this necesarily follows. The US has a dynamic economy
> and it isn't composed entirely of cities the size of Detroit or larger
> and not all production is at TL 8. 

The US has darn few areas with TL 6 or lower production (I specified TL C for a
reason) and no states with a population code below 6; I think it's fair to
figure that an entire world will have 20x the population of Alaska.

I did specify TL C, not F, for a reason.  Pop-8 just means 'at least 20x the
population of Wyoming', which is the least populous US state.
> 
> Sorry if this is old discussion by now. I'm just getting caught up from
> a busy weekend.
> 
> David Shayne
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 11:40:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Mon Jun 17 10:40:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
References: <20020615032510.3230027C7A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D0E1C7F.C141242@ameritech.net>


> From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
> Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 21:15:14 EDT
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> >   Well, so far I've generated about a dozen *very* interesting LBBS so far.
> 
> >The thing's an absolute *hoot*, actually :)
> 
> OK, a show of hands:
> 
> How many of you have generated a cover dealing with a subject Marc's
> licensing criteria would veto?

That depends. What does the liscensing criteria have to say about
illicit recreational pharmacopia?

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 11:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Mon Jun 17 10:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Economic growth in the Imperium.
References: <20020614223510.114F427CF8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D0E2082.5B9EDD32@ameritech.net>




> Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:17:56 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>

> Shawn wilson writes:
> >
> > I think change is slow in the Imperium because economic development
> > is a saturation phenomenon and the Imperium is nearly saturated.
> 
> Yeah, but the truth is, upgrading the minor worlds won't 
> significantly alter the degree of saturation; if you can have a TL F
> pop-A world, you can certainly support having all the lower population
> worlds being TL C and above.  In any case, this argues against wild
> exponential growth robotic factory scenarios.

It only shows that the Imperium has not chosen to do so. Just because
something is possible doesn't mean it will necesarily happen and just
because something doesn't happen doesn't mean that it's not possible.

As a case in point: I didn't drink any coffee this morning. This doesn't
mean that I couldn't have had a cup or three just that I chose not to
do so. In the same vein the Imperium has chosen to largely avoid robotic 
production. This could be because it's not possible (though my reading
of Book 8 suggests that it is) or because the persons in charge of
making the production decisions have chosen not to implement the
capability. I suggest that it cannot possibly be because the largely TL
15 Imperial economy is severely less efficient than the earth's TL 8
global economy.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 12:05:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon Jun 17 11:05:37 2002
Subject: [TML] TLBB font help.....
Message-ID: <20020617180352.21849.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>

Hey, everyone!,

I need some help. Does anyone know what font was used
for the original LBB's? Not the Covers, but the
internal pages.....

Thanks in advance.....

MACessna


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 12:12:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Jun 17 11:12:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206150128050.1430-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20020617180930.87200.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:
> My problem is that there is no plausible reason why
> Pixie should have a
> Class A starport, a Naval base, a General Shipyards
> facility, and why the
> X-boat network should go through it. And if it did
> have all those things,
> the population figure ought to include the people
> who worked there. And if
> it didn't include the people who worked there, it
> shouldn't include the 90
> miners either.

Not having all the "official" material, I don't know
whether the Pixie system is detailed anywhere
"officially," but here are my thoughts.

Is it possible that there is another world in the
Pixie system where many people live.  The shipyard may
be at this other world, but years ago, when the first
settlers came in, Pixie was tagged as the main world. 
Maybe, the world where everyone lives is a garden
paradise but TPTB want to prevent too much
immigration, so they put the starport and such on
Pixie, where the mining colony is.

Just another of suspender stretching, but plausible
solutions.

Paul
Is it possible that P


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 12:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Jun 17 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #635 - 22 msgs
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22A1E@USCHM203>

Ewan Duncan Quibell wrote:

>But how would you 
>explain things like the First Imperium existing on just Jump 1 ? I 
>haven't looked but there must be a break in the mains somewhere 
>throughout their territory before they reached Jump 2.

I always just assumed they didn't start their massive expansion until they
reached Jump-2.

I'm with Eris on the "system to system only jumps". Especially since I
purchased and played Imperium before getting Traveller. The game did not
allow deep space jumps. If it had, any sort of strategic concerns went out
the window. So big deal, you carry twice as much fuel, gather all your
ships, and jump into the Sol system, win the game, and never play Imperium
again.
   I prefer forcing ships to jump between objects of significant(star-sized)
masses. If you need to go further than your jump-drive allows, you have to
take a long slow trip at sublight speeds.
   This doesn't mean that there couldn't be a black hole or something that
could allow passage to otherwise unreachable areas, and  searching for such
a "Rimward Passage" could actually form the basis for an adventure.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 12:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 17 11:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <20020617153625.B7E9327AFB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17K151-00067p-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> on 6/17/02 12:59 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com
> wrote:

> One thing about a tendency to refrain from childbearing.  Said
> tendency won't be passed on to the next generation <g>.

Only if you assume that the desire to have children (as opposed to 
the desire to engage in activities that could creat children :) is a 
genetic drive and not a culturally created meme.  I'm betting it's a 
meme.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 12:20:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 17 11:20:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <20020617153625.B7E9327AFB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17K153-00067p-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> wrote:

> "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net> writes:
> 
> >Has anyone thought that maybe in 35 yrs from 1065 to 1100, or 55 yrs
> >from 1065 to 1120, that the actual population of Pixie may have grown
> >significantly.
> 
> Sure.  However, I'd expect all portions of the UWP to reflect the same
> time, for the simple reason that updating one and not another would be
> silly.  This means, whether or not Pixie currently has 70 people and a
> class A starport, at some point it had 70 people and a class A
> starport.

OK, this is a bit weak (especially since we have several similar 
worlds to deal with), but what if the installations on Pixie were all 
built as part of a large development project, and they had all just 
been completed one week before the UWP were determined, 
during this week the installation was not yet officially open, but 
within a month there would be a population of 5,000 on Pixie.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 12:22:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Mon Jun 17 11:22:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Unboring Ship Rodeo
In-Reply-To: <imgqgukn6g7hs9defnnug3ms5bkmne3tbe@4ax.com>
References: <imgqgukn6g7hs9defnnug3ms5bkmne3tbe@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3d0f0c99.9763641@post.demon.co.uk>

Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> writes:

>Reminder, folks: If you want to see these unboring ships at the =
Freelance
>Traveller Shipyard, either provide explicit permission for me on the =
list,

You have my permission to show any or all of the ship designs I post
to the TML on your site, specifically including the Makiidi design I
posted on 16 June 2002.

Stephen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 12:27:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Jun 17 11:27:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #636 - 23 msgs
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22A1F@USCHM203>

"Eris Reddoch" wrote: 

 >The Vilani had made it to 1+ by the time they ran into
  >  the Terrians.  Most of their ships were still Jump 1,
  >  though, and their districts centered around mains and
  >  clusters that were still very isolated from each other,
  >  and the movement of fleet elements was still very
  >  constrained.  The Terrians beat them to true Jump 2 and
  >  then to Jump 2+, and thus jumped rings around them by
  >  the Nth Interstellar War.

It is my understanding that the Vilan were at Jump 2 when they encountered
the Terrans. The Terrans developed Jump 3 eventually, giving them the
advantage.
Also, the jump routes on the Imperium map are based on Jump-2 as well.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 12:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Jun 17 11:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <E17K151-00067p-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206171125010.18774-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> 
> > on 6/17/02 12:59 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com
> > wrote:
> 
> > One thing about a tendency to refrain from childbearing.  Said
> > tendency won't be passed on to the next generation <g>.
> 
> Only if you assume that the desire to have children (as opposed to 
> the desire to engage in activities that could creat children :) is a 
> genetic drive and not a culturally created meme.  I'm betting it's a 
> meme.

I don't know that I would go that far.  Animals do it.

I do think, however, that we are a crisis-breeding species, and that we
are aware of our mortality; as biological immortality/anagathics become
more and more widely available, and the standard of living improves, I
really do expect birthrates to fall markedly.

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 12:31:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon Jun 17 11:31:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <3D0E1C7F.C141242@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20020617182747.79156.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>

--- David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> > From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
> > Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 21:15:14 EDT
> > To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
> > Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com 
> > 
> > >   Well, so far I've generated about a dozen
> *very* interesting LBBS so far.
> > 
> > >The thing's an absolute *hoot*, actually :)
> > 
> > OK, a show of hands:
> > 
> > How many of you have generated a cover dealing
> with a subject Marc's
> > licensing criteria would veto?
> 
> That depends. What does the liscensing criteria have
> to say about
> illicit recreational pharmacopia?
> 
> David Shayne
> 
  >>
Well, so far, I've got a total of ten covers for a
HUGE crossover campaign...I love this thing!

Can I second the call for a down-loadable program?

MACessna
  >> 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 12:33:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Jun 17 11:33:36 2002
Subject: [TML] The Great TML Unboring Ship Rodeo
In-Reply-To: <3D0C02D4.A2B9002@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20020617182841.90911.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

ISSDEC has two official votes.

I am turning off the life support machines on 6-24.

Paul

--- Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> wrote:
> >I should generate some award certificates for the
> last 
> >winners.
> >Hmmm...anybody remember who got first and second?
> 
> Are we talking ISSDEC or the last NPC contest?
> 
> Last I remembered, the NPC contest was a tie.
> 
> As for ISSDEC, we probably have an insufficient
> quorum.
> 
> Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 12:36:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 17 11:36:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Limited Jumps (was Rodeo Entry:  Makiidi class bulk
In-Reply-To: <20020617174211.B0F5727B08@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17K1Gc-0007BA-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:

> On 06/17/02 at 11:40 AM,  Ewan Duncan Quibell
> <E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk> said:
> 
> >Interesting theory, and it dose make for more interesting tactics and
> >strategy in Trade/War on the interstellar level. But how would you 
> >explain things like the First Imperium existing on just Jump 1 ? I 
> >haven't looked but there must be a break in the mains somewhere
> >throughout their territory before they reached Jump 2.
> 
> Ewan,
> 
> Remember, I started with Traveller in late 1977, and MTU was well
> established before anything about the First Imperium was published.
> So, as details built up over the years the OTU and MTU drifted further
> and further apart and it became harder and harder to reconcile
> everything about mine and GDW's.  That doesn't mean I didn't try, and
> I have come up with several "answers" for your question over the
> years. Here are the five:
> 
> 1.  Until Jump 2 is developed, the only way across a 2+
>     parsec gap is by stl.  This leads to lots and lots of
>     small, and mostly independent, states.  The First
>     Imperium can still exist, but now it is a collection of
>     states held together by a common culture that moves and
>     changes very, very slowly to accomidate the time it
>     takes to *physically* move from one cluster to another.
> 
>     You end up with a very "spotty" empire of a cluster of
>     worlds here and a sting of worlds there, and lots, and
>     lots of unexplored worlds off the "mainline."
> 
>     It also explains how a huge empire couldn't crush the
>     Terran Confederation and how a move to Jump 2 by the
>     Terrans allowed them to defeat the First Imperium in
>     detail, but by itself it doesn't explain how the
>     Terrians and the Vilani ran into each other in the first
>     place.

Actually, the Vilani developed Jump-2 on their own, what gave the 
Solomani the edge was reaching TL 12, which gave them Jump-3 
and Meson Guns.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 12:37:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Jun 17 11:37:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <E17K153-00067p-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1024338718.113.ajackson@ping>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:

> OK, this is a bit weak (especially since we have several similar 
> worlds to deal with), but what if the installations on Pixie were all 
> built as part of a large development project, and they had all just 
> been completed one week before the UWP were determined, 
> during this week the installation was not yet officially open, but 
> within a month there would be a population of 5,000 on Pixie.

It's really weak, and in any case would probably result in an inflated
population for Pixie, not a low population.  The construction crew would
probably be a larger number than the operational crew.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 12:39:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Jun 17 11:39:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <E17K151-00067p-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <E17K151-00067p-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <m3vg8hbvoc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
> 
> > One thing about a tendency to refrain from childbearing.  Said
> > tendency won't be passed on to the next generation <g>.
> 
> Only if you assume that the desire to have children (as opposed to
> the desire to engage in activities that could creat children :) is a
> genetic drive and not a culturally created meme.  I'm betting it's a
> meme.

Ah, but memes are passed on from parents to children as well.  You'd
have to have some other effect in there to regenerate the no-kids
meme.

And of course, if everyone only has one or two children, we die out
eventually.  Which can hardly be a good thing.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Every citizen [should] be a soldier.  This was the case with the Greeks
and the Romans, and must be that of every free state.  --Thomas Jefferson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 12:43:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Jun 17 11:43:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Canon Question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020617114006.009e4dd0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <000301c2162e$2dc5a730$0b01a8c0@duck>

The following is in Adv 5 Trillion Credit Squadron:
- Collapsible Tanks.  They are fuel bladders.  When in use they take
up the tonnage of fuel in them.  When empty they take up 1% of their
capacity.  Fuel in them cannot be used directly; the fuel must be
moved into the standard tanks to be used.  They cost Cr500 per ton.
- Demountable Tanks.  They act as part of the existing tanks.  They
take up space regardless of whether they are full or not.  They cost
Cr1000 per ton.
- Exterior Demountable Tanks.  They work just like Demountable Tanks,
but are attached to the exterior of the ship.  They make the ship
unstreamlined and add to the ship's effective tonnage (potentially
reducing the jump and maneuver ratings).  They cost Cr500 per ton.
- Drop Tanks.  As in Book 5.

Demountable Tanks are also described in The Traveller Adventure.

Hope that helps.

Mike West
mjwest@caddocourt.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leslie Bates
> Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 11:40 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Canon Question
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any canonical rule in CT for the cost of converting fuel tankage
> to cargo space?
> 
> 
> Les
> 
> =================================================================
> Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
> P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 	Do blow-up love dolls dream of inflatable sheep?
> =================================================================
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 12:47:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Jun 17 11:47:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Yes, it's another ship
Message-ID: <200206171844.IQZ05895@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Permission granted to Jeff Zeitlin to post this on Freelance 
Traveller.

The Harvest-class and her sister ships are barge-carrying 
LASH, or lighter aboard ship, vessels capable of carrying 
both barges and containers. Each is capable of carrying up to 
seven 100-ton cargo barges (lighters), but may carry less to 
make room for containers and pusher boats. Each lighter is 
100 displacement tons and may discharge either at an orbital 
pier or in space. The Harvest vessels have two gantry-style 
cranes: one 30-ton capacity crane (forward) for moving 
standard 30-ton modular containers and one 100-ton capacity 
gantry for moving barges. This second gantry can move nearly 
the length of the ship to discharge pusher boats, lighters, 
and containers. In addition to the gantry cranes, the vessels 
have a 3-ton capacity general cargo crane to help load the 
ship's stores. These ships see wide use for both short and 
long range cargo transport, and are capable of independent, 
self-sustaining operations. Due to their self-sustaining 
capabilities, these ships are particularly conducive to 
loading and unloading operations where port restrictions 
preclude the ship from tying up at an orbital dock.  The ship 
is fitted with a fuel processor, enabling use of unrefined 
fuel.  Unlike her smaller sister, the Chukkar, the Harvest is 
equipped with Jump-4 drives, that enable the ship to keep up 
with Naval vessels.  Because of this, the ship has often been 
used by the Navy as an underway replenishment vessel/ship's 
tender to carry foodstuffs and other consumable supplies to 
combat vessels.

Whether used in a frontier area with relatively long jump 
distances, frontier ports, and frontier refuelling, or used 
in a short-haul merchant line with pre-arranged pickup of 
cargo containers, the Harvest is designed to perform its job 
in an economical manner.

The standard crew consists of one Pilot, one Navigator, 4 
Engineers, a Medic, and 3 Flight Crew.   There are 
accomodations for three additional passengers, and standard 
low berths for the crew and three passengers.  As a side 
note, the entire standard crew of 12 can be carried aboard a 
single Ariadne.

The ship carries no jump fuel aboard.  Therefore, at least 
one of the barges must contain jump fuel.

Typical Configurations:

1xFuel Pod
6xCargo Pod 
	(Jump-1, 600 tons cargo)
2xFuel Pod
5xCargo Pod
	(Jump-2, 500 tons cargo)
3xFuel Pod
4xCargo Pod
	(Jump-3, 400 tons cargo)
4xFuel Pod
3xCargo Pod 
	(Jump-4, 300 tons cargo)
5xFuel Pod
2xCargo Pod
	(Jump-4, Jump-1, 200 tons cargo)
6xFuel Pod
1xCargo Pod
	(Jump-4, Jump-2, 100 tons cargo)
7xFuel Pod
	(Jump-4, Jump-3)

Cargo barges are streamlined pods that can be mated with a 
pusher boat, or light tug (Ariadne-class).  Typically, three 
Ariadne-class pusher boats are carried aboard.  The Ariadne 
can be used with a fuel pod to skim for fuel, or can 
transport a single cargo pod.  Mated with a 100-ton pod, the 
Ariadne is still streamlined, allowing the pusher to bring 
cargo to and from planetary surfaces.

Alternative configurations include carrying several Modular 
Cutters in addition to the standard set of pusher boats, a 
mix of 100-ton fuel pods, and many 30-ton containers.

There have been several conversions of this ship, most of 
them involving:
	100-ton Lab Module (4 staterooms, lab areas)
	100-ton Command and Control Module (Fighter Control)
	Attachment of a variety of fighters and small patrol 
boats.
	Attachment of a variety of 30-ton containers
	100-ton Mid-Psg Passenger Module (20 passengers, 5 
emergency low berths)
	100-ton Luxury Passenger Module (10 passengers, 2 
Stewards, 12 low berths)
	100-ton Low-Psg Passenger Module (100 low berths)

This ship is also capable of rescue operations and salvage 
for ships smaller than 500 tons displacement.  It has been 
used as a moveable remote monitoring station (with spacious 
accomodations and long fuel endurance).

Ship: Harvest
Class: Harvest
Type: Merchant/LASH
Architect: John Kwon
Tech Level: 15

USP
         ML-A741442-000000-00000-0 MCr 476.543 1 KTons
Bat Bear                           Crew: 10
Bat                                TL: 15

Cargo: 3.000 Passengers: 4 Fuel: 40.000 EP: 40.000 Agility: 1
Craft: 3 x 20T Pusher (Ariadne-class Light Tug)

Architects Fee: MCr 4.512   Cost in Quantity: MCr 383.836

HULL
1,000.000 tons standard, 14,000.000 cubic meters, Dispersed 
Structure Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 4 Engineers, Medic, 3 Flight Crew

ENGINEERING
Jump-4, 1G Manuever, Power plant-4, 40.000 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/4 Computer

CRAFT
3 20.000 ton Pushers (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 8.441)

FUEL
40.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops,  One Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
12.0 Staterooms, 12 Low Berths, 2 Middle Passengers, 3.000 
Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
7 Containers (100.000 tons, Crew 0, Cost MCr 1.000)

COST
MCr 455.732 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 4.512), MCr 
360.976 in Quantity, plus MCr 22.86 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
120 Weeks Singly, 96 Weeks in Quantity

----------------------
Ship: Ariadne
Class: Ariadne
Type: Light Tug/Pusher Boat
Architect: John Kwon
Tech Level: 15

USP
         TL-0206601-000000-00000-0 MCr 9.525 20 Tons
Bat Bear                           Crew: 1
Bat                                TL: 15

Cargo: 0.700 Fuel: 1.200 EP: 1.200 Agility: 6
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.095   Cost in Quantity: MCr 7.620

HULL
20.000 tons standard, 280.000 cubic meters, Cone Configuration

CREW
Pilot

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-6, 1.200 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
No Bridge Installed, Model/1 Computer

FUEL
1.200 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1 Acceleration Couch, 12 couches for passengers

COST
MCr 9.620 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.095), MCr 
7.620 in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
11 Weeks Singly, 9 Weeks in Quantity

________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 12:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 17 11:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CHAUCHAT Prototype Close Escort
In-Reply-To: <3D0E90E4.14991.FF9EF0@localhost>
Message-ID: <B9337E2A.5F91F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/17/02 6:46 AM, Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance at
a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz wrote:

> I've seen a number of recent publications that indicate that the much
> maligned CSRG was not quite as bad as most people think. Most of its
> bad reputation stems from the 30-06 M1918 model which was specifically
> manufactured in France for the US Army. Only the manufacturer got the
> chamber dimensions wrong, and not surprisingly they failed miserably. But
> this version was only issued in trial quantities.
> 
> The M1915 in 8mm Lebel generally functioned far better. Sure its recoil
> made it shake uncontrollably and it was prone to jam (though it usually
> could be cleared simply by pulling the bolt handle). But it was a functional
> weapon as long as you didn't try to use it for sustained fire.

Hmm, a machinegun not capable of sustained fire.  Interestingly, the French
have a pretty poor reputation when it comes to machinegun design. The
Hotchkiss guns were tolerable, The Puteaux of 1905 and the Saint-Etienne of
1907 were disasters. Even the fairly Recent AAT-52 has proved problematic.

As far as the recent apologists for the CSRG, I'll quote noted gun expert
Ian Hogg "There has been a recent mover...to assert that the CSRG was, in
fact, one of the finest weapons ever concieved. There are also people who
believe the world is flat".

The shortcoming of the Chauchat arparticularly evident when compared to
contemporaries like the Maxim MG08/15 (not really a light machinegun, but
reliable) or the excellent Lewis gun.  Why the US adopted the execrable
Chauchat over much better weapons as the 'Belgian Rattlesnake' can only be
ascribed to personal dislike of Col. Lewis by army chief of ordnance Gen.
Crozier.

True, the Lewis gun was far from perfect, but still well ahead of the
Chauchat in almost every way.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 12:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 17 11:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <E17K151-00067p-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B9337E9A.5F920%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/17/02 11:17 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

>> One thing about a tendency to refrain from childbearing.  Said
>> tendency won't be passed on to the next generation <g>.
> 
> Only if you assume that the desire to have children (as opposed to
> the desire to engage in activities that could creat children :) is a
> genetic drive and not a culturally created meme.  I'm betting it's a
> meme.

That was supposed to be humor.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 13:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Jun 17 12:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <m3vg8hbvoc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206171144550.18774-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On 17 Jun 2002, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

> sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
> > 
> > > One thing about a tendency to refrain from childbearing.  Said
> > > tendency won't be passed on to the next generation <g>.
> > 
> > Only if you assume that the desire to have children (as opposed to
> > the desire to engage in activities that could creat children :) is a
> > genetic drive and not a culturally created meme.  I'm betting it's a
> > meme.
> 
> Ah, but memes are passed on from parents to children as well.

Not always and not necessarily.  I got most of my ideas about life from
other people.

>  You'd have to have some other effect in there to regenerate the
> no-kids meme.

Not necessarily.  

> And of course, if everyone only has one or two children, we die out
> eventually.  Which can hardly be a good thing.

If everyone had two children, population would stay stable.

However, what usually happens is that people have children in large
numbers when there are die-offs.  You really do not need to worry about
this.  Crisis-breeding appears to be ingrained.

Another thing to remember is that genetic inheritance isn't as simple as
you think it is, Robert.  There are advantages to having some people in
extended families who don't have their own children but help to care for
the rest of the family's children; hence, there's some reason to believe
that it actually adds to the survival of a given set of genes if not every
person that has them reproduces.  Desire for children is variable.  In
every generation since the beginning of time there have been people who
wanted to have a lot of kids, and people who were celibate or homosexual,
and yet, despite the fact that celibacy and homosexuality don't produce
offspring, those genetic traits (low sex drive, same-sex-directed sex
drive) don't seem to die out.  Obviously there are reasons for this.  Even
if you don't agree with me that there is a genetic factor at work (there
do also seem to be some environmental factors-- for instance, people born
in very crowded places seem to be more likely to be exclusively gay, which
makes a bit of sense if you think about it), the genes that make up an
individual are also in his or her brothers, sisters, cousins, parents,
aunts, uncles...

In every generation there have been those who lament that all the "wrong"
people are having children, but the world keeps making geniuses anyways.

It's always been true that some people don't want to have kids.  They are
not "selfish" and their genetic legacy will be preserved by their brothers
and sisters who do breed.

I can't have children, but I'm fairly certain the woman who bore me had
other children and the man who sired me probably also did.  If not, their
brothers and sisters did.  The genes that went into making me are out
there somewhere making copies of themselves.  They will not make an exact
copy of me, of course, but they wouldn't have done that if I had been able
to breed naturally anyway.  You forget that the genes that go into people
who didn't have kids came from somewhere.

I don't think we will ever have a society in which nobody has more than
one or two children.  What we will have is a society in which most people
have 1-4 children, some people have absolutely none, and others have more.
There are still people in our society today who have more than 5 children,
and not all of them do it for religious reasons.  Some people just like
kids a lot and seem to be better able to cope with the challenges of
raising more than a few than other people are.  Some people also take in
other people's kids in large numbers.

The only difference between tech levels is that *average* family size will
be smaller (because there won't be mass die-offs, women will have other
choices, and people will live longer) and that people will be freer to
follow their natural inclinations; those who aren't very fertile but want
kids will have them, and those who are fertile but don't will not.

Most people don't want 8 kids.  But in societies where 6-12 births are
common, most people don't have 8 kids that live, anyways.  Having families
of 6-8 kids that survive is one of those blips on the TL scale-- when
people are able to keep more kids alive, but before they have
subconsciously figured out they don't need to have 10 in case they lose
half of them.

Kiri  :)

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 13:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Jun 17 12:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Canon Question
Message-ID: <F268fV5uwRKvMt892hH0001f844@hotmail.com>

From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>

     "Is there any canonical rule in CT for the cost of converting fuel 
tankage to cargo space?"


Mr. Bates,

     AFAIK, LBB#2 only deals with regular, everyday fuel tanks, HG2 
introduces drop tanks, and TTA introduces semi-permanent, dismountable tanks 
in the March Harrier's carog bay.  I believe the collapsible fuel bladder 
thing is from MT.
     Too bad really, a ship with configurable fuel tanks would be very nice. 
  At jump1, it humps X amount of cargo and only needs Y amount of fuel so 
the cargo bay is expanded.  At jump2, it humps X - (10% of displacement) 
amount of cargo and needs Y + (10% of displacement amount) of fuel, so the 
cargo bay shrinks accordingly.
     Nifty, neato, and kean!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 13:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Bryn=20Monnery?=)
Date: Mon Jun 17 12:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] FFW Forces
In-Reply-To: <20020617190206.A84B627B13@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020617192043.10924.qmail@web13907.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi, 

I don't have FFW, but want to know what forces are
available to the various sides.

FWIW, using the slightly modified GF system (all
BE's/10, to bring into line with RW, and multiplied by
population multiplier, very liberal "taint" policy) I
get the following imperial forces:

Imperial (No. of Divisions)
Mirriam: 1
Jewell: 21
Garda-Vilis: 2
Vilis: 19 
Arkadia: 1
Calit: 1
Louzy: 15
Efate: 28
Alell: 1
Menorb: 5
Adabicci: 2
Callia: 1
Regina: 2
Spirelle: 1
New Rome: 2
Feri: 2
Roup: 5
Aki: 3
Glisten: 1
Lunion: 28
Horosho: 2
Enope: 1
Persephone: 2
Crout: 5
Tirem: 2
Algine: 11
Treece: 1
Strouden: 32
Keng: 1
Rethe: 45
Equus: 1
Heroni: 11
Natoko: 3
Porozlo: 56
Rhylanor: 12
Edenelt: 3
Doods: 6
Zivije: 1
Yebab: 1
Aramanx: 3
Fornice: 70
Katarulu: 1
Vanejen: 1
Mora: 15
Junidy: 45
Bevy: 5
Trin: 15

491 Divisions = 19 Field Armies and interface units

Bryn

=====
"I knew it on the roof that night. We were brothers, Roy Batty and I! Combat models of the highest order. We had fought in wars not yet dreamed of... in vast nightmares still unnamed. We were the new people... Roy and me and Rachael! We were made for this world. It was ours!"

- Final Line of Blade Runner: Original Preview Cut

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 13:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Jun 17 12:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo: Where's the Chukkar?
Message-ID: <jgdsguso7jcg1pe5jf6j3uutama6iduo83@4ax.com>

I note that John T. Kwon has stated that he's posted the Chukkar to the
Rodeo - but I just went looking for it, and in the last roughly
six-thousand-plus digests, it ain't there!

John, please repost it (and copy submissions@freelancetraveller.com) or
tell me which digest it appeared in.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 13:26:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Jun 17 12:26:07 2002
Subject: [TML] YEE-HAW! The Rodeo's FINE!
Message-ID: <F39I8LgqjMwF1ZOKLV700015f71@hotmail.com>

From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>

     "For administrative purposes, its easier to post such things 
seperately, especially with the number of ships entered thus far [I just 
sent another one in, so the last Rodeo list is already out of date]. It 
makes it easier for Space Cowboy and my self."


Doc Evil,

     Okay, sounds good to me.  I like easy!  :)

     "Consider: we have about 18 ships in the past two days. The contest 
goes for about 30 days. If this pace continues, we will have somewhere 
around 200-300 ships. I haven't looked at all the designs, but a cursory 
glance seems to show that the TNE, T4, and GT folks haven't arrived yet [you 
can bet they will]."

     (GULP)  TWO HUNDRED! Or THREE HUNDRED!?!  Jeepers, maybe you and I 
should bug out for the high country, pardner.  Saddle up Ol' Paint and 
follow me...

     "Larsen, you may have created a monster."

     Oh, thanks a lot... Well, at least no one with access to the TML 
Archives will able to squawk "Why are all the ships in Traveller are so 
boring?".  With that number of ships, GMs will able to pepper their 
encounter tables with odd designs from here to Doomsday, or the release of 
T5, whichever comes first.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. "The Rotound Rustlin' Reprobate" Whipsnade

P.S. Doc, it hurts every time I go like this.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 13:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Jun 17 12:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB font help.....
In-Reply-To: <20020617190206.A84B627B13@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020617190206.A84B627B13@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <lldsgu86374s9focgdatl3l4vd31946opo@4ax.com>

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:00:04 -0700, Michael Cessna <graymask1120@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Hey, everyone!,

>I need some help. Does anyone know what font was used
>for the original LBB's? Not the Covers, but the
>internal pages.....

>Thanks in advance.....

Titles were done in Optima (Zapf Humanist), body text was done in Helvetica
(Arial).  The unparenthesized font names are the original hot-lead
versions; you can use the parenthesized names as substitutes in modern
electronic media, if you don't have electronic versions of the originals.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 13:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon Jun 17 12:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Sending Again: Canon Question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020617121159.009e4cc0@minn.net> from "Leslie Bates" at Jun 17, 2002 12:11:59 PM
Message-ID: <200206171831.g5HIV8b02142@localhost.uia.net>

> Is there any canonical rule in CT for the cost of converting fuel tankage
> to cargo space?

I would think this should be easy enough.

Semi-related question. What about the idea (probably discussed
before) of using flexible fuel bladders and movable walls to
create staterooms post jump.

Basically, the passengers could stay in the lounge prior to
jump, then once in jumpspace, the crew could push out some walls
into the fuel area, fold out some beds, tables and chairs, put
up some partition walls and call it good. I'm wondering to what
extent that would make travel more economical.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 13:32:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Jun 17 12:32:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Yes, it's another ship
Message-ID: <F85HeEmylB0N0RkL3V40002303e@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "The Harvest-class and her sister ships are barge-carrying LASH, or 
lighter aboard ship, vessels capable of carrying both barges and 
containers."  (big snip of superb stuff)


Mr. Kwon,

     Drat and double drat!  Ya beat me to the draw, you ol' sidewinder!
     Not only that, but you did a MUCH BETTER job too!  WAHHHHHHH!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. "Two Dogs F*cking" Whipsnade

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 13:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Mon Jun 17 12:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206171125010.18774-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c21635$ad929de0$1c577b83@Gideon>

<quote>

> I do think, however, that we are a crisis-breeding species, and that we
> are aware of our mortality; as biological immortality/anagathics become
> more and more widely available, and the standard of living improves, I
> really do expect birthrates to fall markedly.
>
> Kiri

</quote>

Ms. Morgan

I would like to take an opposite stand here.  I believe that as we see an
increase in lifespan and common use of anagathics we will see birthrates
increase or at the very least not we will avoid negative growth.  One of the
significant issues at hand currently is productive age.  If anagathics use
allows (for example) a woman to pursue a successful career and then to be
physically and financially able to raise a gaggle of children in her "golden
years" then I suspect many families may well act in that manner.

I also suspect that unlike our very westernized view of personal freedom
there will be a healthy promotion of "Social Responsibility" within the
feudalistic Imperium, especially within noble families.  Perhaps this is why
the Imperium limits personnel from serving longer than seven terms except in
the most unusual of circumstances.

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 13:36:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Mon Jun 17 12:36:10 2002
Subject: [TML] The Great TML Unboring Ship Rodeo
References: <20020617182841.90911.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002301c21636$0a7833d0$1c577b83@Gideon>



> ISSDEC has two official votes.
>
> I am turning off the life support machines on 6-24.
>
> Paul

I wish to commend you for your attempts at resurrecting the ship design
contest.  Perhaps if there was a unified consensus of which design system to
use there would be more interest.

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 13:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Mon Jun 17 12:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sending Again: Canon Question
Message-ID: <3D0E3AAD.D7B7D344@ameritech.net>

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:11:59 -0500
From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>

> Is there any canonical rule in CT for the cost of converting fuel 
> tankage to cargo space?

According to TCS page 34: (and I'm paraphrasing here) minor changes cost
1.1 times the cost of the system in a new ship. Now in the design rules
neither fuel tankage nor cargo capacity are given an explicit cost. I
would probably do it for the cost of the appropriate volume of hull. IE
to convert 10 tons fuel to 10 tons cargo would cost MCr 1 (.1 MCr per
ton of hull.) This seems rather expensive to me so I'd probably reduce
the cost by a factor of 10 or 100. Still rather costly though. As I
believe it should be. You need to rip out all of the fuel tank things
after all.

Converting the other way is much less expensive as you can make use of
collapsable and demountable tanks.

YMMV

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 13:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 17 12:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206171144550.18774-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <B9338BA4.5F948%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

> 
> I don't think we will ever have a society in which nobody has more than
> one or two children.

Unless mandated by the state, of course.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 13:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 17 12:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML Archive
Message-ID: <B9338D03.5F94B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Please note that there is a problem with the TML archive.  For some reason,
past months are not showing up on the web page.  I am aware of this problem
and am attempting to fix it.

Thanks for your patience,

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 13:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Jun 17 12:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <B9338BA4.5F948%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1024343827.1051.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> > 
> > I don't think we will ever have a society in which nobody has more than
> > one or two children.
> 
> Unless mandated by the state, of course.

Unless mandated by the state _and_ the state is incredibly effective at
enforcing its will.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 14:01:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Jun 17 13:01:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Canon Question
In-Reply-To: <000301c2162e$2dc5a730$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <000301c2162e$2dc5a730$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <m3it4hbrsa.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com> writes:
>
> - Collapsible Tanks.  They are fuel bladders.  When in use they take
> up the tonnage of fuel in them.  When empty they take up 1% of their
> capacity.

Note that (through no fault of your own) this doesn't make a lot of
sense.  When in use they should take up the fuel tonnage plus 1%, more
or less...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
While we're at it, let's not forget the new, improved Second Amendment:
the privilege of approved citizens to register and store properly
serial-numbered guns of increasingly diminishing types shall not be
infringed unless the politicians feel like it.      --L. Neil Smith

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 14:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Simon Brodie)
Date: Mon Jun 17 13:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: 69 again . . .
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206170922450.7097-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c2163a$52f81720$b569ff3e@bloodyhellfire>

Thankfully I stand both corrected and (very) pleased that our juvenile
meanderings did not stretch to zoophillia.

:-)

Si
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 17 June 2002 17:23 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: 69 again . . .


> On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Simon Brodie wrote:
>
> > I attended an engineering course with a course number of '69'.  We
managed
> > to get the course emblem as Jessica Rabbit with the logo 'I'll soon have
you
> > licked into shape'.  It only now strikes me as slightly weird why we
went
> > for a cartoon rabbit instead of a 'flesh and blood' lass.
>
> Ah, but Jessica's only a lagomorph by marriage...
>
> Kiri
>
****************************************************************************
**
> Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
> tiamat@tsoft.com
>
> "If time passes, everything turns into beauty
> If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
> Everything starts wearing fresh colors
> Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
> Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
> Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 14:05:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Jun 17 13:05:57 2002
Subject: [TML] The Great TML Unboring Ship Rodeo
Message-ID: <F911QqFqboJW6S49hKg00015a82@hotmail.com>

From: "Anthony Colosetti" <acoloset@kent.edu>

     "I wish to commend you for your attempts at resurrecting the ship 
design contest.  Perhaps if there was a unified consensus of which design 
system to use there would be more interest.'


Mr. Colosetti,

     I would like to add my thanks to Mr. Walker also.
     Consensus is something rarely, if ever, achieved in a discussion forum 
such as ours.  That is why any "contest" must take the least formal route.  
Each design system, no matter how awful or broken it's detractors may claim 
it to be, has it's adherents.  This is the whole MTU, YTU, toe-may-toes, 
toe-mah-toes, phenomenom.  It also has been the bedrock strength of Our Olde 
Game over the last quarter century.
     Introducing even the simplest strictures to a contest, such as mission, 
tonnage, budget, or design system, necessarily leaves people out.  Even the 
very idea of a "contest" turns many others away.
     That is why Mr. Roseberry has wisely chosen a "show and tell" type 
structure for both the NPC and Unboring Ship Rodeo events.  That gives the 
whole affair a cozier feel to it, something like those 50's automobile 
rallies held at drive-ins every weekend.  Everyone drives in, pops their 
hood (bonnet), oohs and ahhs about the other guy's ride, proudly shows off 
their own, and no one is handing out blue ribbons for the cleanest hubcaps, 
best fender dents, or some other such nonsense.
     It's fun.  More importantly, folks get to show off without being 
judged.  Even being judged by your peers can suck, that's why we have juries 
in courtrooms!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 14:07:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Jun 17 13:07:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Sending Again: Canon Question
In-Reply-To: <200206171831.g5HIV8b02142@localhost.uia.net>
References: <200206171831.g5HIV8b02142@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <m3elf5brp0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

jimv <jimv@uia.net> writes:
> 
> Semi-related question.  What about the idea (probably discussed
> before) of using flexible fuel bladders and movable walls to
> create staterooms post jump.
> 
> Basically, the passengers could stay in the lounge prior to
> jump, then once in jumpspace, the crew could push out some walls
> into the fuel area, fold out some beds, tables and chairs, put
> up some partition walls and call it good.

I thought that fuel was expended throughout jump.  That would mean
that the staterooms start out very tiny but get bigger each day...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
_Money_ is gold.  Fiats are green.  --Bryan J. Maloney

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 14:10:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 17 13:10:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Hosting my Pbem
In-Reply-To: <B9338D03.5F94B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D0DFB05.31505.EF2DAB@localhost>

Tod

Did you ever get my email asking if you would host a pbem game 
for me?  I am told this is the best way to do things

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 14:12:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Mon Jun 17 13:12:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
References: <20020617190208.D7B8C27B24@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D0E41B8.290B0973@ameritech.net>

> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 10:30:26 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>


> The US has darn few areas with TL 6 or lower production (I specified
> TL C for a reason) 

I'll grant that but still think your trying to impose a homogeneity that
doesn't need to exist.

> and no states with a population code below 6; 

But the true analog here is not to states but to cities and towns.
States are just administrative centers like sectors. Cities and towns
are the real economic and social units and the vast majority of them
aren't within two orders of magnitude of NY city. 

> I think it's fair to
> figure that an entire world will have 20x the population of Alaska.

A world will have as many people as wish to live there (more or less.)
Lots of planets are probably dumps with lousy career oportunities. If
you aint born there you don't go there and if you can afford the ticket
off you're gone like crap through a goose. (Watched Patton a few days
ago. Wonderfull movie.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 14:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Jun 17 13:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <001b01c21635$ad929de0$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206171255480.18774-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Anthony Colosetti wrote:

> <quote>
> 
> > I do think, however, that we are a crisis-breeding species, and that we
> > are aware of our mortality; as biological immortality/anagathics become
> > more and more widely available, and the standard of living improves, I
> > really do expect birthrates to fall markedly.
> 
> </quote>
> 
> Ms. Morgan
> 
> I would like to take an opposite stand here.  I believe that as we see an
> increase in lifespan and common use of anagathics we will see birthrates
> increase or at the very least not we will avoid negative growth.  

I think there's some confusion here.  I've never said that I thought
there'd be negative growth, or that I thought people would stop having
kids.  Just that birthrates will probably not ever go back up to 5+ kids
per couple as an average.

> One of the significant issues at hand currently is productive age.

Tell me about it.  I *might* have been able to pull it off in my early
20's.

>  If anagathics use allows (for example) a woman to pursue a successful
> career and then to be physically and financially able to raise a
> gaggle of children in her "golden years" then I suspect many families
> may well act in that manner.

Even so, I doubt most people will have 5-8 kids or more.  Most women I
know (and quite a few men) are relieved once their kids start to hit the
teen years-- parenting is rewarding but it takes a lot out of you.  Most
people are ready for a break.  This will only ensure that those people who
DO want to have kids will have them.  Not that they will have 5. 

> I also suspect that unlike our very westernized view of personal freedom
> there will be a healthy promotion of "Social Responsibility" within the
> feudalistic Imperium, especially within noble families.  Perhaps this is why
> the Imperium limits personnel from serving longer than seven terms except in
> the most unusual of circumstances.

That all depends.  Augustus tried that and he didn't have much luck with
it.  And his subjects didn't have the TL necessary to get out of it.

Besides, noble families especially need to have limited numbers of kids;
if you have too many more kids than you have inheritances, things get
weird and unpleasant REAL quick.  "An heir and a spare" is about right.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 17 13:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hosting my Pbem
In-Reply-To: <3D0DFB05.31505.EF2DAB@localhost>
Message-ID: <B93391B9.5F95E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/17/02 1:06 PM, timothyreynolds@earthlink.net at
timothyreynolds@earthlink.net wrote:

> Tod
> 
> Did you ever get my email asking if you would host a pbem game
> for me?  I am told this is the best way to do things
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 


No, but it's not a problem. I just need an email address, for example
timsgame@travellercentral.com (you can be more creative).

If you want to advertise, just take a look at
http://www.travellercentral.com and follow the pbem links. Send me the
appropriate information and I'll set it up.

You'll get a link to the pbem website and a password that will allow you to
administer it.  Just let me know.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 14:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Jun 17 13:19:04 2002
Subject: COBRA conversion packages, was: RE: [TML] Canon Question
In-Reply-To: <000301c2162e$2dc5a730$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020617114006.009e4dd0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020617151738.009e7d10@minn.net>

At 01:38 PM 6/17/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>The following is in Adv 5 Trillion Credit Squadron:
>- Collapsible Tanks.  They are fuel bladders.  When in use they take
>up the tonnage of fuel in them.  When empty they take up 1% of their
>capacity.  Fuel in them cannot be used directly; the fuel must be
>moved into the standard tanks to be used.  They cost Cr500 per ton.
>- Demountable Tanks.  They act as part of the existing tanks.  They
>take up space regardless of whether they are full or not.  They cost
>Cr1000 per ton.
>- Exterior Demountable Tanks.  They work just like Demountable Tanks,
>but are attached to the exterior of the ship.  They make the ship
>unstreamlined and add to the ship's effective tonnage (potentially
>reducing the jump and maneuver ratings).  They cost Cr500 per ton.
>- Drop Tanks.  As in Book 5.
>
>Demountable Tanks are also described in The Traveller Adventure.
>
>Hope that helps.
>
>Mike West
>mjwest@caddocourt.com 

Not really, thank you anyway. I have TQS, and Supplement 7: Traders and
Gunboats. 

What I wanted to do was to take surplus COBRA class close escorts and work
out conversions to other roles.

For examples:

CANUTE class executive transport: My initial concept for a "Navy One" type
ship for planetary and client state rulers. 40 tons of fuel tankage is
converted to 8 staterooms and a 8 ton baggage hold. The jump drive is
de-rated to jump-3.

COUNSEL class armored transport: 80 tons of fuel tankage is converted to 72
tons of cargo holds and 2 staterooms. Two conformal drop tanks of 30 tons
capacity each are mounted to the exterior of the ship allowing 140 tons of
fuel for the jump drive. The jump and manuever drives are each reduced to
factor-3 in this configuration. Should the external tanks be damaged, there
is still internal fuel capacity for a jump-2 with the drop tank jettisoned. 

The COUNSEL class conversion package was originally developed for
Oberlindes Lines. Four COBRA class escorts were intially converted as
COUNSEL, BARRISTER, SOLICITOR, and SHYSTER. 

CLINTON class executive transport: My second concept for a "Navy One" type
vessel. Identical to COUNSEL except that the 80 tons of fuel tankage is
converted to 12 tons of baggage hold, 10 standard staterooms, 1 double-size
stateroom, and bays for 1 G-carrier and 2 Air/Rafts.

CRUSADER class mercenary transport: Identical to COUNSEL except that the 80
tons of fuel tankage is converted to 12 staterooms, 12 low-berths (for
casualties and prisoners), and berths for 3 G-carriers.

As the Imperial Navy converts to a Tech Level 16 fleet, the current
generation of escorts are expected to be replaced by CE-NG, the Close
Escort-Next Generation. 

Conversion kit packages for CARRONADE and FIERY class escorts are being
developed under the designations of CONTRACTOR, CHELSEA, CONQUISTADOR,
FIXER, FANNY, and FENCER. 


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
# 44. I am not the Atheist Chaplain. [www.skippyslist.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 14:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 17 13:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <20020617190206.A84B627B13@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17K2xq-00086K-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> > Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > on 6/17/02 12:59 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at
> > > sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > 
> > > One thing about a tendency to refrain from childbearing.  Said
> > > tendency won't be passed on to the next generation <g>.
> > 
> > Only if you assume that the desire to have children (as opposed to
> > the desire to engage in activities that could creat children :) is a
> > genetic drive and not a culturally created meme.  I'm betting it's a
> > meme.
> 
> I don't know that I would go that far.  Animals do it.

As the booming industry in birth control proves, the desire to have 
sex /= the to have children.  Animals want to have sex, offspring 
are just what often happens if M/F pairing have sex w/o birth 
control.  Having seen more than one cat in heat, they clearly aren't 
thinking about much more than the good time they are hoping to 
have.
 
> I do think, however, that we are a crisis-breeding species, and that
> we are aware of our mortality; as biological immortality/anagathics
> become more and more widely available, and the standard of living
> improves, I really do expect birthrates to fall markedly.

Yep.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 14:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 17 13:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206171255480.18774-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <B9339331.5F976%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

> 
> Besides, noble families especially need to have limited numbers of kids;
> if you have too many more kids than you have inheritances, things get
> weird and unpleasant REAL quick.  "An heir and a spare" is about right.

Traveller related (really)

A question occurs.  If the nobility have important bureaucratic functions
within the Imperium (there being a classed based system) then there will be
a real occupation for second sons/daughters.  The nobility is not just
providing an heir, but the raw material for a ruling class that must
administer thousands of world.  Depending on the size of the nobility, there
might be impetus, and certainly opportunity for those extra offspring.

Does anyone have an idea just what percentage of the Imperial population is
made up of nobles (SOC 12+)?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 14:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Jun 17 13:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo List...the entrants so far
References: <3D0C0728.752B349@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D0E48EC.5000802@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Roseberry wrote:
> My list of who's put ships in the Rodeo, as of the time of this post.
> If I've missed anyone, let me know...
> 
> Looks like the shipyards in the Twin Cities have been busy. I may have
> to send my agents in Maple Grove to investigate.
> 
> 1. Cougar class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
> 2. Valuta class Assault Landing Ship--John Kwon
> 3. DBZ class Heavy Attack Scout--Dan Roseberry
> 4. Cuda class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
> 5. Cobra class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
> 6. Carronade class Close Escort--Leslie Bates

Add the Yugobox, http://oscar.pharmacy.arizona.edu/desckplans.html. I"ll 
post the descriptions when I find it, it's on my hard drive at home, 
somewhere...




-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 15:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 17 14:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship Rodeo: 2 modified GT Xboats
In-Reply-To: <20020617190206.A84B627B13@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17K3dW-0005AA-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

I grant permission to post these ships anywhere, as long as my 
name remains attached.

In 1091 Ling Standard Products announced the creation of new 
Xboat communications modules capable of storing almost twice 
the data in the same space.  One of the curious features of 
Imperial ship procurement is that it is almost always easier to 
obtain funds to build new ships than it is to obtain funds to refit 
existing ships [1].  

As a result in 1095, the IISS ordered more than 2,000 new Imperial 
Xboats fitted with the new communication modules.  To help offset 
the cost of these new xboats and because the IISS was suddenly 
faced with having 1,500 surplus Xboats, these surplus ships were 
offered for sale at a significant discount.  Available for only 14 MCr, 
the majority of the ships were purchased by General Products and 
GSbAG.  Each Megacorp refitted these vessels and produced a 
new line of starships using these xboats.

The General Products Fast Courier.
Designed for use in the well-settled regions of space, the two 
versions of this vessel combine a high speed jump-drive with an 
excellent cargo or passenger capacity to produce one of the best 
fast couriers now in service.  Capable of docking at any high port 
and landing on vacuum worlds, the only limit on this vessel is that 
it cannot make planetary landings.  The Fleetwing fast cargo 
courier is often used to for trade in time-sensitive speculative 
cargos and is frequently the ship of choice for smugglers.    

GT Stats:  TL 12 Fleetwing Fast Cargo Courier
This xboat variant is designed primarily for cargo hauling, but also 
has space for up to 4 passengers (in 2 double occupancy 
staterooms). Typical fees for passage on this vessel are 25,000 Cr, 
but may sometimes go higher.  Cargo is typically carried at 3,000 
Cr/DT.

100-ton USL Hull, DR 100, Basic Bridge, Engineering, 5 Jump, 2 
Maneuver, 40 Fuel, 4 Staterooms, 1 Low Berth, Utility, 1 Fuel 
Processor, 3 Vehicle Bay (holds sealed air raft fitted for planetary 
landings and cargo transport) 28 Cargo (+1 in Air Raft).
L Mass: 200, Performance: Accel: 1.00 Gs Crew: 2

GT Stats:  TL 12 Azure Swift Fast Passenger Courier
This xboat variant is designed to move passengers rapidly from one 
system to another.  Typical fees for passage on this vessel are 
25,000 Cr, but may sometimes go higher, while cargo is carried at 
3,000 Cr/Dt or more.  Low Passage on this vessel is also typically 
3,000 Cr.

100-ton USL Hull, DR 100, Basic Bridge, Engineering, 5 Jump, 2 
Maneuver, 40 Fuel, 8 Staterooms, 3 Low Berths, Utility, 1 Fuel 
Processor, 3 Vehicle Bay (holds sealed air raft fitted for planetary 
landings and cargo transport) 11 Cargo (+1 in Air Raft). 
L Mass: 191, Performance: Accel: 1.05 Gs Crew: 2

Both versions sell for MCr23 new, but are often available for 16-20 
MCr used. 

The GSbAG Frontier Fast Courier is coming in another post.

[1] This same fact is true with many government owned vehicles 
today, so does not seem unreasonable.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 15:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 17 14:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <a2.27355a84.2a3fac71@aol.com>

--part1_a2.27355a84.2a3fac71_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 17/06/02 18:32:56 GMT Daylight Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


> >>What is a "Libertine"?  I noticed there's a Mylene Farmer song with that
> >>title.
> 
> > That's an early word for "libertarian".
> 
> > --Glenn
> 
> 
> > Not quite :)
> 
> > According to my trusty OED a libertine is a person who (1) freely engages 
> in
> 
> I think that was supposed to be humor
> 

Ahh...my mistake, apologies for any inconvenience.

Charles

"Rule One: Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly 
smiling men!"

Terry Pratchett, The Thief of Time

--part1_a2.27355a84.2a3fac71_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 17/06/02 18:32:56 GMT Daylight Time, webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;&gt;What is a "Libertine"?&nbsp; I noticed there's a Mylene Farmer song with that<BR>
&gt;&gt;title.<BR>
<BR>
&gt; That's an early word for "libertarian".<BR>
<BR>
&gt; --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&gt; Not quite :)<BR>
<BR>
&gt; According to my trusty OED a libertine is a person who (1) freely engages in<BR>
<BR>
I think that was supposed to be humor<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Ahh...my mistake, apologies for any inconvenience.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
"Rule One: Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly smiling men!"<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett, The Thief of Time</FONT></HTML>

--part1_a2.27355a84.2a3fac71_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 15:30:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Jun 17 14:30:52 2002
Subject: [TML] The Great TML Unboring Ship Rodeo
Message-ID: <3D0E5417.B81BFE50@mail.cswnet.com>

>     That is why Mr. Roseberry has wisely chosen a "show and tell" >type structure for both the NPC and Unboring Ship Rodeo events. 

Unfortunately, I cannot claim the credit. Larsen got the ball started
both times. All I did was show up to do the traffic control.

Administrative details: I should be able to monitor this contest to the
end. I do have another MRI coming up at the end of August/beging of
Septmeber, and whether I'll be able to do traffic control for any
upcoming NPC contest depends on how the MRI goes. BEWARE: The last time
I had cancer surgery the "Great TML Brawl at the Haul" broke out.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
"Bert the Turtle says, DUCK AND COVER!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 15:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Jun 17 14:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Limited Jumps
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEDMCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

The discussion of whether one can jump to an empty hex tends to recur, but I
don't recall what conclusions we've reached.  I assume that one can jump to
an empty hex.  If one is carrying enough fuel, one can jump again.  Maybe
there are some astrogation issues concerning such jumps.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 15:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Jun 17 14:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <E17K2xq-00086K-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206171436530.10487-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:
> 
> > I do think, however, that we are a crisis-breeding species, and that
> > we are aware of our mortality; as biological immortality/anagathics
> > become more and more widely available, and the standard of living
> > improves, I really do expect birthrates to fall markedly.
> 
> Yep.
> 
I need to caveat that though.  A lot of folks seem to think that I expect
birthrates to fall rapidly in places like Australia, the USA, Canada, and
Japan, from 1-4 children per couple with outliers who have no or many
kids, to something below replacement.

I don't. 

I expect birthrates in places like India, South America, and the like to
fall to USian levels.  Meme or not, a lot of people *like* kids. 

Kiri  :)
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 15:50:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Jun 17 14:50:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Limited Jumps
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEDMCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000601c21648$e8fff4a0$0b01a8c0@duck>

On Behalf Of Glenn M. Goffin
> The discussion of whether one can jump to an empty hex tends to recur, but
I
> don't recall what conclusions we've reached.  I assume that one can jump
to
> an empty hex.  If one is carrying enough fuel, one can jump again.  Maybe
> there are some astrogation issues concerning such jumps.

I can't tell you whether it "makes sense" or is internally consistent
or not.  But CT canon has plentiful examples of jumping to an empty hex
and then jumping again.

It is common enough that I had never heard of it being an issue before.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 15:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Mon Jun 17 14:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
References: <B9338BA4.5F948%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c21649$ef6bfa90$1c577b83@Gideon>

> > I don't think we will ever have a society in which nobody has more than
> > one or two children.
>
> Unless mandated by the state, of course.

> Tod L Glenn

Mr. Glenn,

Even when mandated by the state there are quite a few non-conformists who
fight for their reproductive "rights".  If fines or taxes are levied than
there will those willing to pay.  For some families a "Third" (1) may be a
sign of rebellious pride...

Anthony Colosetti

(1) Derogatory term used in the novel "Ender's Game"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 16:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 17 15:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship Rodeo: 3 modified GT Xboats (version 2)
Message-ID: <E17K4W6-0000Us-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

I made some mistakes the first time around, here are the revisions 
+ the 3rd ship.

I grant permission to post these ships anywhere, as long as my 
name remains attached.

In 1091 Ling Standard Products announced the creation of new 
Xboat communications modules capable of storing almost twice 
the data in the same space.  One of the curious features of 
Imperial ship procurement is that it is almost always easier to 
obtain funds to build new ships than it is to obtain funds to refit
existing ships [1].  

As a result in 1095, the IISS ordered more than 2,000 new Imperial
Xboats fitted with the new communication modules.  To help offset 
the cost of these new xboats and because the IISS was suddenly 
faced with having 1,500 surplus Xboats, these surplus ships were 
offered for sale at a significant discount.  Available for only 14 MCr, 
the majority of the ships were purchased by General Products and 
GSbAG.  Each Megacorp refitted these vessels and produced a 
new line of starships using these xboats.

The General Products Fast Courier.
Designed for use in the well-settled regions of space, the two 
versions of this vessel combine a high speed jump-drive with an 
excellent cargo or passenger capacity to produce one of the best 
fast couriers now in service.  Capable of docking at any high port 
and landing on vacuum worlds, the only limit on this vessel is that it
cannot make planetary landings.  The Fleetwing fast cargo courier 
is often used to for trade in time-sensitive speculative cargos and is
frequently the ship of choice for smugglers.    

GT Stats:  TL 12 Fleetwing Fast Cargo Courier
This xboat variant is designed primarily for cargo hauling, but also
has space for up to 4 passengers (in 2 double occupancy 
staterooms).  Typical fees for passage on this vessel are 25,000 
Cr, but may sometimes go higher.  Cargo is typically carried at 
3,000 Cr/DT.

100-ton USL Hull, DR 100, Basic Bridge, Engineering, 5 Jump, 4 
Maneuver, 40 Fuel, 4 Staterooms, 1 Low Berth, Utility, 1 Fuel 
Processor, 3 Vehicle Bay (holds sealed air raft fitted for planetary
landings and cargo transport) 26 Cargo (+1 in Air Raft). L Mass: 
314, Performance: Accel: 1.27 Gs Crew: 2

GT Stats:  TL 12 Azure Swift Fast Passenger Courier
This xboat variant is designed to move passengers rapidly from one
system to another.  Typical fees for passage on this vessel are 
25,000 Cr, but may sometimes go higher, while cargo is carried at 
3,000 Cr/Dt or more.  Low Passage on this vessel is also typically 
3,000 Cr.

100-ton USL Hull, DR 100, Basic Bridge, Engineering, 5 Jump, 3 
Maneuver, 40 Fuel, 8 Staterooms, 3 Low Berth, Utility, 1 Fuel 
Processor, 3 Vehicle Bay (holds sealed air raft fitted for planetary
landings and cargo transport) 10 Cargo (+1 in Air Raft). L Mass: 
238, Performance: Accel: 1.26 Gs Crew: 2

Both versions sell for MCr23 new, but are often available for 16-20
MCr used. 

The GSbAG Nightfall Frontier Fast Courier.
GSbAG purchased 300 surplus xboats to convert to fas couriers 
capable of making planetary landings.  These conversions removed 
much of the cargo and passenger space potential that makes the 
two General Products fast couriers so attractive.  However, this 
vessel can perform wilderness refueling.  This vessel is also fitted 
with a high power maneuver drive capable of accelerations greater 
than 2 Gs.  Unfortunately, because of it's miniscule cargo and 
passenger capacity there is no way to pay off this vessel without 
engaging in smuggling or highly speculative cargo sales.  GSbAG 
created these vessels because of a special contract by a trading 
company that in 1103 was revealed to be a front company for the 
Gerzak crime syndicate.  Today, Nightfall Fast Couriers are 
occasionally available in law enforcement seizure auctions for 
between 12 and 16 MCr, and a few have made it into the hands of 
private smugglers and high risk traders who must often part with 
them to raise money. 

The Nightfall Frontier Fast Courier
Capable of carrying up to 4 passengers in two double occupancy 
staterooms, typical fees for passage on this vessel are 25,000 Cr, 
but may sometimes go higher, while cargo is carried at 3,000 Cr/Dt 
or more.  

100-ton SL Hull, DR 100, Basic Bridge, Engineering, 5 Jump, 5 
Maneuver, 40 Fuel, 4 Staterooms, 1 Low Berth, Utility, 1 Fuel 
Processor, 1 Vehicle Bay (holds sealed air raft fitted for planetary
landings) 7 Cargo. L Mass: 238, Performance: Accel: 2.3 Gs Crew: 
2

[1] This same fact is true with many government owned vehicles 
today, so does not seem unreasonable.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 16:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Jun 17 15:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why does fule cost so much?
In-Reply-To: <20020617144018.99175.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020617062345.F2182279B3@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020617144018.99175.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020618080028.A19425@freeman.little-possums.net>

Daniel Tackett wrote:
>     A lot of good and interesting points brought up on this
> subject. I wonder how much a dton of Hydrogen costs on present day
> earth.

About US$8000/dton.  That would be roughly 2500 Cr/dton.  The price is
largely due to the cost of energy involved in the separation and
liquefaction process, and should drop drastically with Traveller's
cheap fusion power.  It would drop much further still with large-scale
production.  If additionally given Traveller's fuel refining
equipment, the cost of producing liquid hydrogen should drop *much*
further.  I remember calculating a figure of 2 Cr/dton + raw
materials, including amortization and maintenance.  Storage tanks cost
a lot more than that: per day of average holding time, they cost about
15 Cr/dton.

If you're setting up a refuelling facility out at the 100D limit of a
gas giant, it will cost you somewhere between 4 and 20 Cr/dton to
gather and refine fuel, depending upon local conditions.  As you
intuited, storage is trickier.

To prevent delays, you will need a capacity at least as great as that
of the largest ship you expect to refuel (plus say 20% margin).  In
the ideal case, all the ships are the same size and regularly arrive
every few hours.  That way you can run your refineries constantly and
fuel is only stored for at most a few hours before the next ship
arrives.  Your total cost per dton might be as low as 10 Cr in such a
perfect case.

The worst case is where traffic is very low or sporadic, and most of
your capacity sits idle for a week or so on average.  That brings the
total cost up to about 100 Cr/dton mainly due to your large investment
in LH2 fuel tanks sitting idle.  For very small facilities, the
relatively fixed overhead of staffing costs may increase this by up
to 100%.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 16:04:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Jun 17 15:04:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator/TML Rodeo
Message-ID: <3D0E5BE5.F1680914@mail.cswnet.com>

LKW writes:
>How many of you have generated a cover dealing with a subject Marc's 
>licensing criteria would veto? 

No LBB covers, but I have a ship for the TML Rodeo that might annoy some
folks. I'm debating real hard about whether to post it or not.
The design is done, I guess I'll sit on it a few days and contemplate
what I should do with it.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 16:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Mon Jun 17 15:07:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Sending Again: Canon Question
References: <200206171831.g5HIV8b02142@localhost.uia.net> <m3elf5brp0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <002001c2164a$fe99f9d0$1c577b83@Gideon>

> I thought that fuel was expended throughout jump.  That would mean
> that the staterooms start out very tiny but get bigger each day...

> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>

Warning! Minefield!

Mr. Uhl,

This is a hotly contested area.  It basically comes down to whether or not
you consider drop tanks a viable technology within YTU.  If yes, then the
proposed idea may or not work.  If drop tanks are complete fantasy then the
modular living space is right out...

Anthony Colosetti



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 16:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Jun 17 15:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Limited Jumps
In-Reply-To: <000601c21648$e8fff4a0$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20020617221321.C308F27B3D@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/17/02 at 04:49 PM,  "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com> said:

>I can't tell you whether it "makes sense" or is internally consistent
>or not.  But CT canon has plentiful examples of jumping to an empty
>hex and then jumping again.

>It is common enough that I had never heard of it being an issue
>before.

Please note, how I sign these posts, and also note that I said I was
sure I was in the distinct minority on this subject...as I have said
the last few times this subject has come up during the last few years.
<g>  I also said that MTU was starting to get established even before
Adventure 1 was released, and that the subject was NOT addressed,
either way, in the first 3 LLB's...and AFAIK, it's not. I went on to
say that as the OTU was developed, it became harder and harder to
reconcile MTU with the OTU. I was asked what justifications *I* had
come up with, and I gave them. As long as it's a matter of preference,
not a hole in a handwave that players can drive trucks though, one
preference is as good as another for anyone's own TU. I made no claims
on the OTU for limiting jumps to non-empty hexes.  I like my way of
doing things, and hope you like your way of doing things. 

Eris,
    the Heretic
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 16:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Mon Jun 17 15:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
References: <B9339331.5F976%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003201c2164d$0453aa40$1c577b83@Gideon>

<quote>

> > Besides, noble families especially need to have limited numbers of kids;
> > if you have too many more kids than you have inheritances, things get
> > weird and unpleasant REAL quick.  "An heir and a spare" is about right.
>
> Traveller related (really)
>
> A question occurs.  If the nobility have important bureaucratic functions
> within the Imperium (there being a classed based system) then there will
be
> a real occupation for second sons/daughters.  The nobility is not just
> providing an heir, but the raw material for a ruling class that must
> administer thousands of world.  Depending on the size of the nobility,
there
> might be impetus, and certainly opportunity for those extra offspring.

</quote>

Mr. Glenn,

My thoughts exactly...  I have always envisioned most of the upper
bureaucratic functions being held by lesser nobles.  I also see the military
as the primary training ground for a majority of noble children and with a
high rate of conflict (in MTU at least) a superb culling device for
inadequate leaders.

<quote>

> Does anyone have an idea just what percentage of the Imperial population
is
> made up of nobles (SOC 12+)?

> Tod L Glenn

</quote>

Approx. 1 in 36 (works out to about 2.8%) <grin> Sorry I couldn't resist...

I would actually like to know what was the percentage of noble to commoner
during the height of the British Empire, the above number might actually not
be off by that much.

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 16:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Jun 17 15:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Limited Jumps
In-Reply-To: <20020617221321.C308F27B3D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000901c2164e$feb61080$0b01a8c0@duck>

On Behalf Of Eris Reddoch
> On 06/17/02 at 04:49 PM,  "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com> said:
> 
> >It is common enough that I had never heard of it being an issue
> >before.
> 
> Please note, how I sign these posts, and also note that I said I was
> sure I was in the distinct minority on this subject...as I have said
> the last few times this subject has come up during the last few years.

Eris,

I am sorry if I insulted you.  My comment was not directed at either
you or YTU.  My confusion (for the lack of a better word) was that
it appeared that others thought it was an issue with the OTU and that
it is a recurring subject.

Again I meant no disrespect to YTU (or anyone's for that matter).  My
comments were purely regarding views of the OTU.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 17:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 17 16:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Limited Jumps
Message-ID: <20020617.190122.-373201.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:29:42 -0700 "Glenn M. Goffin"
<gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:

> The discussion of whether one can jump to an empty hex tends to recur,
but I
> don't recall what conclusions we've reached.  I assume that one can
jump to
> an empty hex.  If one is carrying enough fuel, one can jump again. 
Maybe
> there are some astrogation issues concerning such jumps.

I know that, if nothing else, TTA pretty much explicitly states that you
can jump to 'empty' hexes.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Jun 17 16:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  LBB Front-Cover Rendering Machine
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEDJCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020617161649.009fea40@mindspring.com>

At 10:22 AM 6/17/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> >
> >I sent some characters to a K'kree wedding once. It was interesting when
> >the ceremony ended with the groom mounting his bride. Their host, Stampy
> >the Angry K'kree was grossly insulted when one of the characters commented
> >that public copulation was a bit out of his experience.
>
>Because K'kree are herd sophonts, I would not expect weddings between one
>male and one female.  Consider this famous K'kree joke:

The ceremony was the blending of a branch of a smaller family onto a larger 
one.  One of the males of the larger family took a female as a wife (his 
seventh) to cement the alliance.

IMTU, matings were controlled by caste an family relationships.  Males 
mated only with their wives.  The climax (ahem) of the wedding had the same 
symbolism as the ring in a Western ceremony.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"CALIFORNIA, a large country of the West Indies...
It is uncertain whether it be a peninsula or an
island."
  -- Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1st Edition (1771)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 17:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Jun 17 16:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick help needed!
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020617080116.009f2280@mindspring.com>
References: <200206162340.QAA01268@molly.iii.com>
 <200206162340.QAA01268@molly.iii.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020617080116.009f2280@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b93424249fba@[143.232.119.186]>

At 8:03 AM -0700 6/17/02, Douglas Berry wrote:
>At 12:47 AM 6/17/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>Its not in my copy.  You are looking on p24?  I found my copy of 
>>Cyberpunk (which has it also) and it doesn't say that there 
>>either....
>
>Third paragraph, the one that starts "Turning on the vibro 
>effect..."  The last sentence reads" "DR protects at 1/5 value 
>versus vibroblades." (Ultratech, second edition, p. 24)

I'm guessing it was a second edition change that wasn't put in first 
edition errata.  (and 1/5 DR seems excessive to me, but if they have 
changed it, then they have changed it.  For some reason they don't 
always do things _my_ way...  :-)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 17:52:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Jun 17 16:52:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why does fule cost so much?
In-Reply-To: <20020618080028.A19425@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020617062345.F2182279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <20020617144018.99175.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20020618080028.A19425@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <p04330104b9342581f19b@[143.232.119.186]>

At 8:00 AM +1000 6/18/02, Timothy Little wrote:
>Daniel Tackett wrote:
>>      A lot of good and interesting points brought up on this
>>  subject. I wonder how much a dton of Hydrogen costs on present day
>>  earth.
>
>About US$8000/dton.  That would be roughly 2500 Cr/dton.  The price is
>largely due to the cost of energy involved in the separation and
>liquefaction process, and should drop drastically with Traveller's
>cheap fusion power.  It would drop much further still with large-scale
>production.  If additionally given Traveller's fuel refining
>equipment, the cost of producing liquid hydrogen should drop *much*
>further.  I remember calculating a figure of 2 Cr/dton + raw
>materials, including amortization and maintenance.  Storage tanks cost
>a lot more than that: per day of average holding time, they cost about
>15 Cr/dton.

When something is cheap enough, the costs of labor (like having 
someone there 24 hours a day, being will to deliver fuel to every 
berth, etc. ) becomes controlling.  That is probably not a 100% 
effective rationale (for one thing, cost structures get funny, that 
is why a bigger coke is only a small extra cost, the cost to sell you 
a soda is almost all the rent of the spot it sits on and the salary 
of the person who rings up the sale, so it costs very little to give 
you a bigger one) but it will help some.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 17:57:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Jun 17 16:57:07 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Limited Jumps
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEDMCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEDMCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <p04330105b93426b93aec@[143.232.119.186]>

At 2:29 PM -0700 6/17/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>The discussion of whether one can jump to an empty hex tends to recur, but I
>don't recall what conclusions we've reached.  I assume that one can jump to
>an empty hex.  If one is carrying enough fuel, one can jump again.  Maybe
>there are some astrogation issues concerning such jumps.

It is canonical, to the degree that the way the Solomani first got to 
Bernard's Star was to jump to an empty hex.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 17:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Jun 17 16:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Limited Jumps
Message-ID: <p04330106b93427125002@[143.232.119.186]>

>At 2:29 PM -0700 6/17/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>>The discussion of whether one can jump to an empty hex tends to recur, but I
>>don't recall what conclusions we've reached.  I assume that one can jump to
>>an empty hex.  If one is carrying enough fuel, one can jump again.  Maybe
>>there are some astrogation issues concerning such jumps.
>
>It is canonical, to the degree that the way the Solomani first got 
>to Bernard's Star was to jump to an empty hex.

Oh, The Traveller Adventure also has the ship jumping empty hexes....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 18:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Jun 17 17:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Problems with Emp Marava
Message-ID: <20020618000131.5075.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
While wearing my world builder hat, I have a hard time
believing that anyone could get a mortgage from a bank
for a vessel that would not be able to earn enough to
make the payments.  There lies the way to 
foreclosure!
END QUOTE

Yeah but its a great scam for the banks. Lend money,
PC's buy ship. PC's blow heaps of cash trying to keep
ship. Bank reposses ship. Next group buy ship. I mean
its a vicious cycle but you could make money. Which
raises the question of why people travel to make
money? Surely you would be better of as a banker.

James.

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au
- Find yourself a bargain!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 18:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Jun 17 17:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
References: <20020617202505.6027C27B4A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006b01c2165d$319c6d60$345d8690@computer>

From: Tod Glenn
> A question occurs.  If the nobility have important bureaucratic functions
> within the Imperium (there being a classed based system) then there will
be
> a real occupation for second sons/daughters.  The nobility is not just
> providing an heir, but the raw material for a ruling class that must
> administer thousands of world.  Depending on the size of the nobility,
there
> might be impetus, and certainly opportunity for those extra offspring.

Opportunity, yes, but probably not impetus.

I doubt that it would be necessary for nobles to fill a lot of roles, but a
lot of roles would be open to nobles. For example, a local magistrate might
be a knight, but doesn't have to be one. On the other hand, a second
daughter might be sent to law school...

> Does anyone have an idea just what percentage of the Imperial population
is
> made up of nobles (SOC 12+)?

Considerably less than 8%, despite the various chargen systems.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 18:13:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Jun 17 17:13:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Unboring Ship Rodeo
References: <20020617190206.A84B627B13@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c2165d$30f61b40$345d8690@computer>

Jeff Zeitlin has my permission to show the Ferdinand class ship design I
posted to the TML on Freelance Traveller.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 18:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Jun 17 17:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
References: <20020617153625.B7E9327AFB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <009901c2165e$ab472aa0$345d8690@computer>

> From: Alan Huscroft 
> Go back to running D&D?  Well, perhaps it won't seem quite so painful if
> you make it look like this...
> 
> http://www.takarlis.demon.co.uk/traveller/evil.gif

Eww. Now that _would_ breach Marc's licencing guidelines. : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 19:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Mon Jun 17 18:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU Setting
Message-ID: <009501c21665$92681d80$dd4f1c43@customer>

Paul Walker wrote
> Not having all the "official" material, I don't know
> whether the Pixie system is detailed anywhere
> "officially," but here are my thoughts.
>
> Is it possible that there is another world in the
> Pixie system where many people live.  The shipyard may
> be at this other world, but years ago, when the first
> settlers came in, Pixie was tagged as the main world.
> Maybe, the world where everyone lives is a garden
> paradise but TPTB want to prevent too much
> immigration, so they put the starport and such on
> Pixie, where the mining colony is.
>
> Just another of suspender stretching, but plausible
> solutions.

I've been thinking of something similier. The UWP only refers to the 'main
world'. The 'main world' is where the starport.  Now my thinking is that
Pixie orbits a gas giant, maybe a brown dwarf.  Pixie is the 'moon' where
the starport is located.  The Navy base is laocated on another 'moon', and
The General Shipyard is laocated on another. So the population listed is
just the starport personel.  The starport is purely fuctional with few if
any amenites for the traveler.  The starport was paid for by the Imperium,
or maybe General Shipyards.  Certainly a population of 90 could never afford
to build an A class starport.

I haven't consulted any of the material that I have on Pixie so this ramble
could be a load of .....
I'm just trying to get my mind around the inconstistancies created by the
CT/MT world generating system.

John Scarlett
-------------------

You burn more calories sleeping than you do watching TV.- "Real Fact" #107
on snapple.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 19:17:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 17 18:17:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <20020618000510.84C4827B2C@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17K7bU-00069c-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>

> On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> > Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > I do think, however, that we are a crisis-breeding species, and
> > > that we are aware of our mortality; as biological
> > > immortality/anagathics become more and more widely available, and
> > > the standard of living improves, I really do expect birthrates to
> > > fall markedly.
> > 
> > Yep.
> > 
> I need to caveat that though.  A lot of folks seem to think that I
> expect birthrates to fall rapidly in places like Australia, the USA,
> Canada, and Japan, from 1-4 children per couple with outliers who have
> no or many kids, to something below replacement.

Actually, with the exception of the US, almost the entire First 
World is now below replacement.  Japan is *way* below 
replacement with a birth rate of 1.3 (where 2.05 is approximately 
replacement level), and Spain and the Scandinavian nations have 
birthrates that are only a little higher.  3rd world immigration is 
likely the only thing keeping the US above replacement (both new 
immigrants and the fact that recent immigrants and their children 
tend of have more children).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com    

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 19:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Mon Jun 17 18:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Limited Jumps
Message-ID: <3D0E8A5C.626ABE7F@ameritech.net>

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:53:20 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

> At 2:29 PM -0700 6/17/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

<snip>

> Bernard's Star 

Who's Bernard? And how did he get his own star?

:-)

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 19:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 17 18:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Limited Jumps
Message-ID: <20020617.183519.-10241.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:18:20 -0500 David Shayne
<daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:53:20 -0700
> From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
> 
> > At 2:29 PM -0700 6/17/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > Bernard's Star 
> 
> Who's Bernard? And how did he get his own star?

(Redshift3 astronomy program says)

That would be Barnard's Star  
A ninth magnitude star in the constellation Ophiuchus that has the
largest known proper motion of any star, a fact discovered by the
American astronomer E. E. Barnard in 1916. Its position in the sky
changes by 10.3 arc seconds each year as it moves through space relative
to the Sun. It is the third-nearest star to the Sun at a distance of 5.88
light years.
Possible "wobbles" in the motion of Barnard's star have been interpreted
as indicating the presence of unseen planets, but this suspicion has not
been confirmed.  

Turokan

-   ....   .   .-.   .       ..   ...       -.   ---   -.   .       .-.  
---   .-..   -.--       .-   ...       -   ....   .       .-..   ---  
.-.   -..   ---...       ..-.   ---   .-.       -   ....   .   .-.   .   
   ..   ...       -.   ---   -.   .       -...   .   ...   ..   -..   .  
    -   ....   .   .   ---...


________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 19:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Jun 17 18:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Limited Jumps
In-Reply-To: <3D0E8A5C.626ABE7F@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20020618015505.8D4CB27990@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/17/02 at 08:18 PM,  David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net>
said:

>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:53:20 -0700
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

>> At 2:29 PM -0700 6/17/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

><snip>

>> Bernard's Star 

>Who's Bernard? And how did he get his own star?

Made a payment to the Star Registry, a really big payment.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 20:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Jun 17 19:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <000d01c21649$ef6bfa90$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <B933E497.5FA85%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/17/02 2:57 PM, Anthony Colosetti at acoloset@kent.edu wrote:

> Mr. Glenn,
> 
> Even when mandated by the state there are quite a few non-conformists who
> fight for their reproductive "rights".  If fines or taxes are levied than
> there will those willing to pay.  For some families a "Third" (1) may be a
> sign of rebellious pride...
> 

Actually, I was thinking along the lines of an oppressive regime like
mainland China.  Rebellious pride can result in jail or worse in these sort
of government types.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 20:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 17 19:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Old Battles, Space Rodeos and the Editions of Traveller
Message-ID: <112.1322bb67.2a3ff3a2@aol.com>

Time to remind the list of buried bitterness, I'm afraid...

Someone commented earlier today (or late yesterday...) that the ship designs 
posted so far indicated that the TNE folks "hadn't shown up yet".

They likely won't be in large numbers, since they've had their own mailing 
list since being made pariahs on this one. A list, I note, that has a 
signal-to-noise ratio almost the reverse of that found here. They never 
stopped posting ship designs, or Library Data for the New Era, or germane 
discussions on the background period that they know (as so many of you 
*don't*) IS part of Traveller.

If you want a significant TNE showing at the Rodeo, you have some fences to 
mend first...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 20:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Mon Jun 17 19:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
Message-ID: <F206v6EybqfAj81EYtN00001e5a@hotmail.com>

>Actually, with the exception of the US, almost the entire First
>World is now below replacement.  Japan is *way* below
>replacement with a birth rate of 1.3 (where 2.05 is approximately
>replacement level), and Spain and the Scandinavian nations have
>birthrates that are only a little higher.

More than a little. I couldn't find birth rates for Sweden but the "Excess 
of birth" (births-deaths) was -2236 in 2001. Thats -260 per million people. 
That should give a birth rate around 2.0.

Data from the "Swedish Statistical Bureo"
http://www.scb.se/allmanmanadsstatistik/a7.pdf

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 20:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Jun 17 19:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo: Where's the Chukkar?
Message-ID: <200206180235.IRP02547@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Permission for Jeff Zeitlin to put this up somewhere.

The Chukkar is a slow, yet flexible and inexpensive merchant 
ship.  Depending on options, it can be had for as little as 
37 Mcr, or as much as 48 Mcr.  It takes advantage of the 
standard 30-ton module for the Modular Cutter (and all of 
those variants).  Because of its versatility, and modular 
construction, it passes readily from owner to owner, while 
being used for virtually any purpose from cargo transport, 
passenger transport, exploration, lab research, anti-piracy 
(if equipped with fighters!), commando (add a fighter, and 
some troop modules), or luxury use.  The modest engineering 
plant is designed for low stress, long life operation, with a 
minimum of maintenance.  As an example of how inexpensive the 
operation might be:
-	the mainteance cost for a standard Chukkar with 
cutter is 48,000 cr per year.
-	the payments are 200,000cr/month
-       the crew size is very small

The Chukkar is a dispersed structure ship.  The ship has a 
rather modest 1-G performance, and a Jump-1 capacity.  The 
crew consists of a Pilot, an Engineer, and traditionally, a 
Medic.  The crew/bridge/computer module is a small box at the 
bow end of the ship's frame, and the ship's powerplant, 
maneuver drive, and jump drive are located in a box at the 
aft end.  The ship's computer is a Model 1bis.  The ship 
carries internal fuel for a Jump-1 without any additional 
fuel modules, and 28 days of powerplant fuel.  There is a 
refiner on board, and the cutter may be used to procure fuel 
in wilderness refuelling, or unrefined fuel may be purchased 
and used without problems.

The crew area also includes 4 staterooms that may be used for 
additional crew, or for Middle Passage passengers.  The crew 
area also includes 4 low berths.  If people double up (the 
crew is already doubled up), you could add eight additional 
crew.

There are no weapon hardpoints - but keep in mind that the 
ship may carry armed craft, such as fighters.

The standard Chukkar comes with 1 Modular Cutter, a 30-ton 
passenger container, and two 30-ton cargo containers, one of 
which is carried inside the Modular Cutter.  There are 
several other module options:

20-ton Demountable Fuel Tank
	This is not a drop tank.  It provides the ship with 
an additional Jump-1 worth of fuel.

30-ton Module
	In addition to every module variant for the Modular 
Cutter, there are:
	30-ton Cargo Module
	30-ton Passenger Module (7 Middle Passengers, 2 
Emergency Low Berths)
	30-ton Low Berth Module (30 Low Berths)
	30-ton Luxury Module (3 High Passage, 1 Steward in 
half stateroom, 4 Low Berths)

In an emergency, any or all of the modules may be 
jettisoned.  If a passenger module is jettisoned, the 
occupants must take to the low berths.
	
You can mix and match these combinations.  Keep in mind the 
following:

A Modular Cutter is 50 tons, and may contain a 30-ton module 
only.  This 30-ton module does not count against the ship's 
tonnage.
There are 30-ton modules, and 20-ton fuel modules.
Each 20-ton fuel module extends the ship's range by 1 parsec.
The total of cutter and/or modules must add up to less than 
120 tons.

Technically, if you add six 20-ton fuel pods, the ship can 
travel six parsecs (the seventh 20 tons of fuel needs to be 
used for powerplant operation).  It will take six Jump-1, but 
you'll get there.

Combinations:

2x30-ton cargo containers
1 Modular Cutter with 1x30-ton cargo container
(total 90 tons cargo, total 1 parsec range)

4x30-ton cargo containers (no modular cutter)
(120 tons cargo, 1 parsec range)

3 x 20-ton fuel pods
1 Modular Cutter with 1x30-ton cargo container
(total 30 tons cargo, total 4 parsec range)

2 x 20-ton fuel pod
1 x 30-ton cargo pod
1 Modular Cutter with 1 x 30-ton cargo container
(total 60 tons cargo, total 3 parsec range)
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 20:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Jun 17 19:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Todays Rodeo List Update...
Message-ID: <3D0E9FE7.F06558E0@mail.cswnet.com>

Todays Rodeo List Update, as of Digest#639

1. Cougar class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
2. Valuta class Assault Landing Ship--John Kwon
3. DBZ class Heavy Attack Scout--Dan Roseberry
4. Cuda class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
5. Cobra class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
6. Carronade class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
7. Chukkar class Merchant--John Kwon
8. Pell class Cargo Ship--John-Martin
9. Juniper class Missile Corvette--Anthony Colosetti
10. Ferdinand class Exploration Cruiser--Alan Bradley
11. Moronica Sisters Type A1.7725 Merchant--Alan Spik
12. Makiidi class Bulk Trader--Stephen Tempest
13. Shambieau class trader--Nick
14. Chauchat class Escort--Leslie Bates
15. Oldendorf class Tramp Trader--Dan Roseberry
16. Girls Best Friend [TL11 Seeker class]--Dan Roseberry
17. Minnie Me [Micro Trader class]--Dan Roseberry
18. Sinzsha Maru [Sonzsha Maru class Ore carrier]--Dan Roseberry
19. April Hare [TypeR2 Large Merchant]--Mike West
20. Harvest Class Merchant/LASH--John Kwon
21. Fleetwing Fast Cargo Courier--John Snead
22. Azure Swift Fast Passenger Courier--John Snead
23. Nightfall Frontier Fast Courier--John Snead

and waiting in the wings for possible posting ...
The Wicked Wanda Attack Yacht--Dan Roseberry [pending review]
The Yugobox--Bruce Johnson

On the Yugobox, I think I might have a hard copy in my ship files. If
you can't get to yours, I'll scan the copy I have if I have the copy and
then I will post it, but if I do not have the copy and you do not have
the copy, then it will not be posted and we will be sad. Sounds like
Mojo Jojo, Si?

Ship postings may be droping off a bit. I've got 5 today so far, but
that is without the ones waiting in the wings. Still, we are gonna have
alot of ships for this contest. Remember the convoy from Battle Star
Galactica? We may be creating one like that.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
Remember, only you can prevent TML stagnation. Please Post Often.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 21:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 17 20:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Typeface
Message-ID: <e4.293f843e.2a4003cd@aol.com>

>I need some help. Does anyone know what font was used
>for the original LBB's? Not the Covers, but the
>internal pages.....
>
>Thanks in advance.....

Univers. 11 point. From the IBM electronic selectric "golfball" typesetter. I 
believe we switched to Helvetica later on.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 21:34:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Mon Jun 17 20:34:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Stormhawk class Q-Ship/Escort
In-Reply-To: <3D0E9FE7.F06558E0@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D0E5E5D.6591.42CD71@localhost>

based on a stretched far trader hull, and with all the subtle nuances 
of heavy firepower you've come to enjoy from the folks at Maximus

 I give you the Stormhawk

yeah I know its an odd format, but since I cant get anything to work 
properly on the list it will have to do.


GURPS Traveller Ship Data Sheet:

Class Name: Stormhawk	
Type: Small Freighter
TL: 11

Tonnage: 300
Cost: 93.228 MCR
Mass: 1,187.08 Tons
DR: 287
Hit Points: 25,500
Crew: 9

Engineering:
Jump: 2
Manuever: 3.09
Fuel Tankage: 30 and 30 ton collapsible tank in 
cargo hold

Offensive Systems:
2 1,300 MJ Heavy lasers in retractable forward 
mounts
X Rack MSL and 2 130mj Pulse Lasers in 
retractable turret

Defensive Systems:
Small ECM package
Decoy launcher with 12 decoys

Small Craft:
Air Raft

Other Features:
Hardened Basic Bridge
2 5 ton Smugglers Holds
60 Ton Cargo Hold
4 Low Berths
12 Staterooms
Sick Bay
FPP[Refines in 3.8 hours]

Notes: 
Small Far trader variant, stretched A2 hull
on the raider variant, 3 false turrets are 
mounted.

Secondary NOTES:
the small ship ECM package and the X-rack salvo missile launcher 
are from the X-Tek site.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 21:39:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Jun 17 20:39:33 2002
Subject: [TML] FFW and Ground Forces Reconcilling them
In-Reply-To: <20020617192043.10924.qmail@web13907.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020617190206.A84B627B13@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <200206180341.g5I3fps12025@sun.ebtech.net>

Bryn the FFW game emphasized naval warfare so the original OOB 
was as follows:


1 100 battalion corps on Efate type variable with deployment

4 10 battalion infantry brigades

4 5  battalion regiments 1 armour and 3 jump troops

8 5 battalion marine regiments 4 elite


Mercenary Forces

20 factor arm division on Efate 

10 factor inf brigade on Ruie

6 1 factor inf battalions 4 elite

1 1 factor arm battalion elite

1 1 factor arm rgt



Thats it!


Reinforcements included:


8 500 battalion armies 4 inf and 4 arm

5 100 battalion corps 4 inf and 2 arm 1 starts on map

8 20 battalion divisions 4 inf and 4 arm


In an earlier posting I showed how the colonial reinforcement 
applied to real Spinward Marches planets you can do this with the 
Imperial Units too. IMTU the mobile Colonial units are Imperialized 
and upgraded in TL to make numbers up to what they are in 
Ground Forces.

For the game it makes it harder for the Zho and high tech fortress 
worlds are no pushover. It now plays more like it would according 
to GF.  Avoid high tech and pop and occupy the rest to cripple 
economics.  FFW needs commerce raiding rules and base 
destruction rules.  I would change system VP to be an average of 
TL and PL rather than based only on TL.


Each subsector except Trin, Mora and Rhylanor gets a Marine Rgt.


Jewell

Imperial<bold>

</bold>2 10 factor inf brigades

1 100 factor inf corps

Colonial <bold>

</bold>1 2 factor arm battalion

1 20 factor inf div

1 100 factor inf corps


Regina

Imperial

1 500 factor inf army

Colonial

1 10 factor inf brig

4 100 factor corps 2 arm 2 inf


Aramis

1 500 factor inf army


Vilis 

Imperial

2 10 factor inf brigades

1 100 factor inf corps

Colonial

1 10 factor inf brigade

1 100 factor inf corps


Lanth

Imperial

4 20 factor inf divisions 

Colonial

2 100 factor inf corps


Rhylanor

Imperial

1 5 factor jump rgt

1 100 factor inf corps

2 500 factor arm armies

Colonial

1 50 factor arm corps

2 100 factor inf corps

2 500 factor armies 1 arm 1 inf


Lunion

Imperial

1 5 factor jump rgt

2 20 factor arm divisions

1 100 factor arm corps

Colonial

1 10 factor inf brigade

2 100 factor corps 1 arm 1 inf


Mora

Imperial

1 5 factor jump rgt

1 100 factor inf corps

2 500 factor arm armies

Colonial

2 10 factor inf brigades

1 100 factor inf corps

2 500 factor inf armies


Five Sisters

Imperial

1 20 factor inf div

1 100 factor inf corps


Glisten

Imperial

1 500 factor inf army

Colonial

1 5 factor arm rgt

1 10 factor inf brigade

1 100 factor inf corps


Trin

Imperial

1 500 factor inf army

Colonial

1 500 factor inf army




<nofill>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 22:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon Jun 17 21:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why does fule cost so much?
References: <B932C723.5F73B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D0F5BB1.377905AC@mindspring.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 6/16/02 9:29 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:
>
> >> 2) It takes a *lot* longer to go from planet to gas giant, skim,
> >> and then leave the GG's 100D limit, that it does to just refuel at
> >> the starport and leave the planet's 100D limit.
> >
> > True, the service is worth that much to a starship.  It doesn't cost
> > even a tenth to supply such a service though.  Perhaps the starport
> > authorities impose monopoly pricing on such services, preventing the
> > normal commodity market forces from lowering prices?
>
> Does the STA get a slice of that action.  That would explain a lot too.
>
> Which brings up another question.  How are STA operations funded INTU?
> Direct user fees?  Local Taxes?  Imperial disbursements?
>
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> --
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

In systems where SPA has a monopoly wilderness refueling is illegal generally.
SPA ports in non-monopoly systems are subsidised by those that do have a
monopoly. They make plenty at 500 Crimp/ton.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The simplest act of surrealism is to walk out into the street,
gun in hand, and shoot at random.
           -Andr Breton



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 22:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Jun 17 21:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels (Was: hi tech...)
In-Reply-To: <20020617042913.D0F5827AE7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20617.205834.1H8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 06/16/02 at 09:14 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> said:
>
>>Actually, we are getting the current (and recent) crashes in place
>>like Africa because we introduced modern medicine, but (for the most
>>part) didn't increase food production, nor introduce borth control.
>
>>So lots more children survived disease, only to starve...
>
>>Sometimes doing "good" can cause as much (if not more) harm than
>>"letting nature take its course".
>
>>If folks in the future learn from our mistakes, I can see a lot of
>>medical aid being tied to things like 6 month contraceptive implants
>>or the like.
>
>>Yes, that'll bring cries of "forcing our ideas on other cultures".
>>But if they want the help, and aren't willing to make adjustments for
>>the population effects of the help, what can you do?
>
> It'll be called genocide, and those that don't cave will be called
> nazis. Please, note, I'm not saying *I* would call it that, but it I
> can hear Dan Rather or Peter Jennings now.

And they'll be wrong. Not that they'll ever say so publiclly. There was
a reason I specified contraceptive implants. They are only good for
6-12 months. And you can't "forget" to take them.

> To be honest, I don't know what is going to work.

Eventually, education catches up, and the birth rate drops. the problem
is the generation or two of lag time during which population climbs.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 22:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon Jun 17 21:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Great TML Unboring Ship Rodeo
References: <3D0E5417.B81BFE50@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D0F5EE0.11ED0BD1@mindspring.com>

Roseberry wrote:

> >     That is why Mr. Roseberry has wisely chosen a "show and tell" >type structure for both the NPC and Unboring Ship Rodeo events.
>
> Unfortunately, I cannot claim the credit. Larsen got the ball started
> both times. All I did was show up to do the traffic control.
>
> Administrative details: I should be able to monitor this contest to the
> end. I do have another MRI coming up at the end of August/beging of
> Septmeber, and whether I'll be able to do traffic control for any
> upcoming NPC contest depends on how the MRI goes. BEWARE: The last time
> I had cancer surgery the "Great TML Brawl at the Haul" broke out.
>
> Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
> "Bert the Turtle says, DUCK AND COVER!"
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Perhaps if you sent Larsen a shiny toy before you go in, he won't cause any more trouble. ;)


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The simplest act of surrealism is to walk out into the street,
gun in hand, and shoot at random.
           -Andr Breton



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Jun 17 22:29:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon Jun 17 21:29:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator/TML Rodeo
References: <3D0E5BE5.F1680914@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D0F5F4F.6BA3AB64@mindspring.com>

Roseberry wrote:

> LKW writes:
> >How many of you have generated a cover dealing with a subject Marc's
> >licensing criteria would veto?
>
> No LBB covers, but I have a ship for the TML Rodeo that might annoy some
> folks. I'm debating real hard about whether to post it or not.
> The design is done, I guess I'll sit on it a few days and contemplate
> what I should do with it.
>
> Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Post it! Post it! Post em All!!!!!( A small amount of random gunfire. Trying
to save for a new security service.)



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The simplest act of surrealism is to walk out into the street,
gun in hand, and shoot at random.
           -Andr Breton



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 02:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Tue Jun 18 01:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU setting
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206170041290.32307-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <000201c216a5$318c7a20$e000a8c0@imogen>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> > - The shipyard is there because General wanted a location in  the
> >   subsector and the lack of a proper government on Pixie means no
> >   local taxation and no local labour laws.
> 
> And no local labor, no local food, no local sub-components, no
> local support services. In short, everything has to be imported,
> which will tend to eat up any tax savings to put it mildly.

The presence of the shipyard on Pixie  is  established  canon.  I
must admit the tax and labour law reason is a little thin, but  I
haven't figured out any other reason for it being there.  Yet.



> > - The x-boat link was routed through Pixie (instead of just going
> >   straight to the Kinorb cluster) to service both the  shipyard's
> >   high volume of corporate mail to/from head office, and all  the
> >   contract workers' correspondance.
> 
> Just how big a place do you imagine this shipyard is? Corporate
> mail would be up to General Shipyards to handle, and I don't see
> it taking many ships.

With  today's  average  corporate  suit's  habit   of   attaching
PowerPoint presentations to emails without thinking maybe many of
General's corporate emails have marginally  useful  PowerPoint-VR
presentations tacked on.  A single such email would fill  one  or
two contemporary DVDs!  That would bulk up the requirements.  :-^



> > All the workers are contractors (or naval staff) and thus weren't
> > counted by the IGS as Pixie residents (they're residents of other
> > places).  Only the 90 miners want to  stay,  so  only  they  were
> > counted by the IGS.
> 
> Why would 90 miners want to stay in Pixie any more than anyone
> else? There's not enough of them to make up a stable community.

How about an unstable one that has nevertheless  survived  a  few
generations?



> I don't believe the data in _The Spinward Marches_ and other,
> later publications is from 1065. I believe it is from the date
> the various books are set in.

Okay, I tend to agree with that.



> >Pixie's neighbours 'accept' them only because no one wants Pixie:
> >its a rock on the very edge of the Imperium with little of value.
> 
> Then why put a naval base and a shipyard on it?
> 
> >The only real interested candidate would be General Shipyards ...
> >and they can't be bothered. In fact, General might actively
> >resist another world trying to claim Pixie.
> 
> If General really ran a shipyard on Pixie, they would have a far
> better claim to owning the place than the miners. And just running
> the shipyard would be all it took to make up a de facto Type 6
> government.

Scenario:  A lazy scout working for IGS arrives at Pixie and asks
who the local government is.  An aggressive (and  maybe  slightly
drunk) miner claims to represent the local government.  The  lazy
scout and the press officer from the shipyard look at each  other
and shrug ... and the scout notes down the  miners  claim  before
leaving for the next system (of many).

Not very likely, but stranger things have happened.



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 02:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Tue Jun 18 01:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stagnant TLs (was: Minimum population for tech levels)
References: <B932EA29.5F7E3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000301c216a5$32238a00$e000a8c0@imogen>

(This was written with tongue firmly in cheek.)

In the Traveller rules high tech worlds have  large  populations,
and large population  worlds  tend  to  have  more  authoritarian
governments with high law levels.  Perhaps TL and law  level  are
related.

As a world reaches mid-tech sophistication there is a decline  in
birth  rate.   However,  this  decline  is  more  pronounced   in
successful and affluent individuals.  In a mid-tech society there
is a correlation between individual success and intelligence  (as
the importance of class  declines  and  the  society  strives  to
become a meritocracy).  Therefore, at this stage of  a  society's
development  there  emerges  a   negative   correlation   between
intelligence and procreation ... a negative evolutionary force.

From here things can go one of two ways.  Either the society does
nothing and the decline in average intelligence  hinders  further
TL progression (it may even slip  back a  level  or  two  as  the
society  becomes  swamped  in  its  own  trailer-trash),  or   an
authoritarian regime steps in and administers some sort  of  mass
eugenics program (and the people loose or give up  the  right  of
procreative self-determination).

This could explain the apparent glacial progress in TL in the 3I.
On a lot of worlds the people do  not  give  up  their  right  of
procreative self-determination and as  a  result  TL  progression
stalls as the society becomes stupider.

Referees should apply a negative DM to the initial  INT  roll  of
characters coming from long-established mid-tech worlds  (ie  mid
tech worlds in long settled areas).  And a  positive  DM  to  the
initial INT roll of characters  coming  from  high-tech  high-law
worlds (to signify the product of a eugenics program).

Further, many high-tech high-law worlds may  make  it  compulsory
for first time visitors to make a contribution to the state  gene
bank.  In some cases there'll  be  a  state  run  clinic  in  the
starport concourse, but in others the players may be  alarmed  to
see a  sour-faced  medical  technician  (perhaps  called  Bertha)
wearing a white coat and rubber gloves at the customs checkpoint.
(And you thought the drug searches were intrusive!)



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 03:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue Jun 18 02:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU Setting
In-Reply-To: <20020617180930.87200.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEGPEJAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Actually the real reason Pixie is a problem is that when the scout survey
arrived they were mistreated and filed an erroneus report. Sure they were
disciplined but by that time the damage was done. On this basis Pixie could
have hundreds of millions of people a great climate and oodles of resources.

Those who visit there know this, those who don't, rely on the "distorted"
data from the last scout survey.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Paul Walker
Sent: Tuesday, 18 June 2002 2:10 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU Setting



--- Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:
> My problem is that there is no plausible reason why
> Pixie should have a
> Class A starport, a Naval base, a General Shipyards
> facility, and why the
> X-boat network should go through it. And if it did
> have all those things,
> the population figure ought to include the people
> who worked there. And if
> it didn't include the people who worked there, it
> shouldn't include the 90
> miners either.

Not having all the "official" material, I don't know
whether the Pixie system is detailed anywhere
"officially," but here are my thoughts.

Is it possible that there is another world in the
Pixie system where many people live.  The shipyard may
be at this other world, but years ago, when the first
settlers came in, Pixie was tagged as the main world.
Maybe, the world where everyone lives is a garden
paradise but TPTB want to prevent too much
immigration, so they put the starport and such on
Pixie, where the mining colony is.

Just another of suspender stretching, but plausible
solutions.

Paul
Is it possible that P


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 03:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Tue Jun 18 02:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Burying the hatchet with the TNErs
In-Reply-To: <20020618085311.F32AB27B64@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000001c216ab$226eca60$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: GypsyComet@aol.com
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 22:23:30 EDT
<Snip>
>
> They likely won't be in large numbers, since they've had
> their own mailing
> list since being made pariahs on this one. A list, I note, that has a
> signal-to-noise ratio almost the reverse of that found here.
> They never
> stopped posting ship designs, or Library Data for the New
> Era, or germane
> discussions on the background period that they know (as so
> many of you
> *don't*) IS part of Traveller.
>
Is that Silent Tower? I haven't received any mail from that list since late
February...

Andy
--
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi              Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)
 United Arab Emirates           +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 03:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Jun 18 02:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Old Battles, Space Rodeos and the Editions of Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020618085311.F32AB27B64@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020618085311.F32AB27B64@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <jp0ugusggguss5lt79ojq7c8vi2jlepod2@4ax.com>

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 01:51:01 -0700, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

>Time to remind the list of buried bitterness, I'm afraid...

>Someone commented earlier today (or late yesterday...) that the ship designs 
>posted so far indicated that the TNE folks "hadn't shown up yet".

>They likely won't be in large numbers, since they've had their own mailing 
>list since being made pariahs on this one. A list, I note, that has a 
>signal-to-noise ratio almost the reverse of that found here. They never 
>stopped posting ship designs, or Library Data for the New Era, or germane 
>discussions on the background period that they know (as so many of you 
>*don't*) IS part of Traveller.

>If you want a significant TNE showing at the Rodeo, you have some fences to 
>mend first...

Ummm... Do I have this list listed at Freelance Traveller
(http://www.freelancetraveller.com/infocenter/travnet.html)?  If not, info
please?  Does it have any archives?  Where?

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 04:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Tue Jun 18 03:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] immortal hyperintelligent posthuman beings
Message-ID: <OFEBFA207B.72E483CC-ON42256BDC.00365626@ko.com>

"> Lots of aliens and FTL travel are *really* cool, but becoming an
> immortal hyperintelligent posthuman being is IMHO even better.

Oh yes, definitely.  If it weren't for the richness of detail already
developed in Traveller, I'd ditch it in a heartbeat and go for a
setting that *really* makes use of technology, and explore the various
sociological and individual implications."


Although I'm sure many people on the TML are familiar with the Orion's Arm
Website, herewith the link. Quite interesting - a future posited on
'immortal hyperintelligent posthuman beings' who are nevertheless very low
down the food chain, given that some AIs have reached the status of gods.

The link was created in Lotus Notes, which is very klunky at the best of
times, so forgive me if it does not work.

Regards

Clint Rynners


http://www.kheper.auz.com/orions_arm/index.html




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 04:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 18 03:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <m3fzzmdkyg.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20618.012505.8S7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>> 
>> There are many parents, male and female, who would gladly sacrifice
>> career for family if it were economically viable.
>
> Aye.  The only point to a job IMHO is to enable one to pay for what
> one does when not working, and one of those activities is raising a
> family.  `Career' is way over-rated.

So is "family". Especially the "raising" part.

Many people are not emotionally/tempermentally suited to raising kids.
Others aren't interested. 

Lacking social presure to have kids, a rather large percentage of
people *won't*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 04:16:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Jun 18 03:16:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <m3k7oydl6m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20618.011723.2E2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> writes:
>> 
>> It's just not very much in keeping with what we know about humans to
>> assume that there will be large families at high TL's unless there
>> is a patriarchal culture that reduces opportunities for women to
>> have other careers.
>
> Or the women who don't want (or can't have) children don't have
> them--and thus die out.  Leaving those who do and can.

And such a *genetic* shift would be noticeable in about 20 thousand
years or so.

If it's *not* genetic, the argument doesn't work at all.

The fact is, having kids is an expensive undetaking, both in terms of
money and *time*. 

And higher TLs make the process *more* expensive, not less. Especially
in terms of time.

Add in the fact that that kids can be pretty unpleasant to be around at
times (even if they are your own) and there are good reasons why people
won't want to have too many. 

And why people won't want to have *other* people's kids around. 

You are arguing from a flawed premise. 

There are people who want to have children. And people who don't. Some
are going to feel that way regardless. Most are going to be swayed by a
combo of social prerssures and practicalities.

Remember that at low TLs there are two *big* reasons to have lots of
kids. First, you need lots of free labor around the house/farm.

Second, you need to have at least several survive to take care of *you*
if you live to be too old to support yourself. They are your retirement
program.

These needs go away as the TL rises.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 05:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Jun 18 04:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Old Battles, Space Rodeos and the Editions of Traveller
In-Reply-To: <jp0ugusggguss5lt79ojq7c8vi2jlepod2@4ax.com>
References: <20020618085311.F32AB27B64@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D0FC75E.9220.401EDA@localhost>

On 18 Jun 2002 at 5:55, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> Ummm... Do I have this list listed at Freelance Traveller
> (http://www.freelancetraveller.com/infocenter/travnet.html)?  If not, info
> please?  Does it have any archives?  Where?

No, you don't.

Some info:

To unsubscribe, e-mail: tne-rces-unsubscribe@silent-tower.org
For additional commands, e-mail: tne-rces-help@silent-tower.org

As for archives, I don't know. It's the silent-tower list that was down 
for so long. Most TNEer's seem to be on both it and the yahoo list, and 
many posts are sent to both.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 05:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Jun 18 04:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Burying the hatchet with the TNErs
In-Reply-To: <000001c216ab$226eca60$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>
References: <20020618085311.F32AB27B64@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D0FC7F6.8389.427066@localhost>

On 18 Jun 2002 at 13:32, Andrew Long wrote:

> Is that Silent Tower? I haven't received any mail from that list since late
> February...

Curious, as it's probably had more posts on it than the yahoo one has 
had.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 05:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 18 04:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Yeehaa! Space Rodeo entry
In-Reply-To: <3D0E9FE7.F06558E0@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3D0E9FE7.F06558E0@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20020618215620.A20652@freeman.little-possums.net>

Here's a rather unusual entry into the Rodeo.  They aren't starships,
but since so many people were posting mere spaceships along with their
starships I thought I'd throw them in to keep the lesser brethren
company.  Feel free to cut, paste, repost, republish and/or modify
this article.


"Space Family Dancourt" Modular Habitats (designed and produced by
Dancourt Infrastructure Development LLC).  "This exciting range of
fashionable ..." *zzzt-pop!* (get that marketroid outahere!)... ahem.

The development of new planetary systems, especially those with little
or no atmosphere, requires a lot of work.  And a lot of workers, for a
long time.  They need somewhere to call home while they're on the job.

As an incentive to attract highly-skilled workers to outsystem jobs,
Dancourt originally developed a range of transportable living quarters
designed to Ling's Modular Cutter specifications.  Each one provided
ample living space for a whole family, or shared accomodations for a
number of single workers.  These were quite inexpensive to produce,
and were easily adapted to many different environments and purposes
within Dancourt's operatiosn in the Spinward Marches.

After only a few years in deployment, word spread that they were
actually very comfortable to live in, and they quickly became saleable
items in their own right.  They underwent many cycles of refinement
and many similar designs were produced by competitors.  Dancourt
allowed external production to flourish, and profited from others'
refinements to the design.  Almost all of them retained the original
standardised airlock positions and dimensions to allow multiple units
to be connected together or to larger shared community areas.

After a few decades the surge in demand for such habitats died down,
and the market for derived designs contracted mainly to those clients
who liked the idea of living on a space yacht, but could not afford
the enormous expense of a starfaring craft.  This is not as big a
limitation as it sounds -- even without their own jump drive, due to
their standardised size and shape, they can be carried on most
interstellar freighters at a cost of only about 15-20 kCr per parsec.

The latest generation of modular habitats shares little with the
original but the name.  They are far more self-contained and have
their own in-system thrusters.  The designs vary wildly, but a
mid-range used model recently sold can be presented as an example:


"Undine", registration TSF-2E45-Glisten, conforming to LSP 30-dton
cutter module exterior form factors.  Painted in watery shades of
blue, in good condition visually and mechanically.  Boring technical
details [GURPS design]: Light body structure, unstreamlined, 120 DR,
sealed, heavy compartmentalisation, 455 kW fusion power + 4 kW solar
(enough for life support at 1.5 AU), 1000 MJ power cells, 20000 lb
reactionless thruster, acceleration 0.15 gees, 1.5 gees contragravity,
three hardened neural-net computers with 6 terminals throughout the
craft (remove neural-net option for standard Traveller), a collection
of skill programs, library, radio with base 0.5 AU range, three
2-person airlocks suitable for interconnection with other modules, 20
person total life support system (extra cost and space for high
quality), artificial gravity, fire suppression, complete
mini-workshop, roomy crew station, 9x4 metre swimming pool,
astronomical instruments, planetary survey array, 200 square metres of
living area with 3 luxury cabins and one double-size master bedroom, 1
dton of storage space.  Price new, 0.42 MCr.  Used sale price in good
condition 0.28 MCr.

Probably the most impressive feature of this particular model is the
swimming pool -- small by some standards, but contributing strongly to
a feeling of luxury.  The interior fittings are also luxurious and
visually appealing, but no longer in the latest fashions.

The internal food production facilities are state-of-the-art, allowing
full-quality meals to be prepared without requiring resupply, and both
air and water can be completely recycled and temperature-controlled.
The ship comes with its own trio of maintenance robots and
comprehensive diagnosis and repair programs that are the equivalent of
a fairly skilled mechanic.  It also has a well-stocked (if a little
cramped) machine shop.  The previous owner installed a small suite of
planetary and astronomical observation equipment into this particular
craft, good for either hobby or work-related system surveying.

If needed, more modules could be constructed or purchased to match
this one for extra space or functionality at little cost -- most of
the price goes to one-off items such as power plants, computers,
software, thrusters and life support.


Such a craft of greater or lesser quality with variations might be
found in any system, just about anywhere within it.  Alone, floating
near a few others like it, docked with a starship, docked with a
hundred others like it in a big community structure, carried *inside*
a starship, or linked to other (unpowered) modules.

Any of the above might be near some interesting place, in transit
between system bodies, at a spaceport, prospecting asteroids, on the
surface of an airless world, being attacked by pirates, being pirates,
producing or carrying illegal goods, operating as a space hotel,
... the possibilities are endless.

By now, you would probably be thinking this post is, too :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 07:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Jun 18 06:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Limited Jumps
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22A2D@USCHM203>

At 2:29 PM -0700 6/17/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>The discussion of whether one can jump to an empty hex tends to recur, but
I
>don't recall what conclusions we've reached.  I assume that one can jump to
>an empty hex.  If one is carrying enough fuel, one can jump again.  Maybe
>there are some astrogation issues concerning such jumps.

>It is canonical, to the degree that the way the Solomani first got to 
>Bernard's Star was to jump to an empty hex.

Yes, for the record, jumps to empty hexes are canon.
They just don't happen IMTU. It's simply a matter of preference, and I like
having systems out of reach or hard to reach, or even impossible to reach by
jumping.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 07:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue Jun 18 06:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] CHAUCHAT Prototype Close Escort
In-Reply-To: <B9337E2A.5F91F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3D0E90E4.14991.FF9EF0@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D0FDFDB.1293.5F2156@localhost>

On 17 Jun 2002, at 11:53, Tod Glenn wrote:

> As far as the recent apologists for the CSRG, I'll quote noted gun expert Ian
> Hogg "There has been a recent mover...to assert that the CSRG was, in fact,
> one of the finest weapons ever concieved. There are also people who believe
> the world is flat".

I have no doubt that the CSRG was a poor weapon (I like the quote from 
WHB Smith "the First World War's Sten, only without the Sten's 
reliability"). Its just that to read some authors you'd think it would have 
been better employed as a club (or the worst machine gun ever, a term I 
dislike since there are just so many worthy contenders for the title). It was 
a bad weapon (on many many levels) and the US would have been better 
served by even something like the Madsen; but the M1915 wasn't a total 
loss (unlike the M1918).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 07:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue Jun 18 06:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Limited Jumps
In-Reply-To: <p04330105b93426b93aec@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEDMCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D0FE0D4.19285.62ED5C@localhost>

On 17 Jun 2002, at 16:53, David P. Summers wrote:

> It is canonical, to the degree that the way the Solomani first got to 
> Bernard's Star was to jump to an empty hex.

Plus the minor fact that the Vilani managed to cross the J3 gap in the 
Solomani Rim with only J2 drives


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 08:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun 18 07:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] CHAUCHAT Prototype Close Escort
In-Reply-To: <3D0FDFDB.1293.5F2156@localhost>
Message-ID: <B9348B23.5FEB9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/18/02 6:35 AM, Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance at
a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz wrote:

> I have no doubt that the CSRG was a poor weapon (I like the quote from
> WHB Smith "the First World War's Sten, only without the Sten's
> reliability"). Its just that to read some authors you'd think it would have
> been better employed as a club (or the worst machine gun ever, a term I
> dislike since there are just so many worthy contenders for the title).

And interestingly, many of those contenders are French in design. However, I
can't think of any machinegun that was actually issued to troops that was
quite as bad.  The example I have seen was very flimsy, construction was
poor and fit and finish were terrible.
> It was 
> a bad weapon (on many many levels) and the US would have been better
> served by even something like the Madsen; but the M1915 wasn't a total
> loss (unlike the M1918).

Chambering for the French 8mm service round had its own problems.  The round
is certainly not ideal for automatic weapons.  Note that the French finally
realized this and developed their 7.5mm rimless round based on the German
7.92mm.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 08:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue Jun 18 07:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CHAUCHAT Prototype Close Escort
In-Reply-To: <B9348B23.5FEB9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3D0FDFDB.1293.5F2156@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D0FE752.29407.7C489B@localhost>

On 18 Jun 2002, at 7:00, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 6/18/02 6:35 AM, Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance at
> a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz wrote:
> 
> > I have no doubt that the CSRG was a poor weapon (I like the quote from
> > WHB Smith "the First World War's Sten, only without the Sten's
> > reliability"). Its just that to read some authors you'd think it would have
> > been better employed as a club (or the worst machine gun ever, a term I
> > dislike since there are just so many worthy contenders for the title).
> 
> And interestingly, many of those contenders are French in design. However, I
> can't think of any machinegun that was actually issued to troops that was
> quite as bad.

The Italian Breda is my prime contender


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 08:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Jun 18 07:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Speaking of Pixie...
Message-ID: <200206181419.ISM00585@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:32:57 +0400
>From: "Andrew Long" <AndrewGLong@yahoo.com>  

If you'll notice, it looks like Andrew is still stuck in a 
place like Pixie...
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 08:22:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun 18 07:22:05 2002
Subject: [TML] CHAUCHAT
In-Reply-To: <3D0FE752.29407.7C489B@localhost>
Message-ID: <B9348FDF.5FEC4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/18/02 7:07 AM, Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance at
a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz wrote:

>> 
>> And interestingly, many of those contenders are French in design. However, I
>> can't think of any machinegun that was actually issued to troops that was
>> quite as bad.
> 
> The Italian Breda is my prime contender

The 37 or 38?  Don't you like to oil your cartridges?  Besides, while a
'funky' design (ammunition strips and a system that put empty cartridges
back into the strip), it did prove to at least be fairly reliable.

Naturally, this brings up the question, are there particularly bad designs
in Imperial service (small arms, ships, etc)  that persist for one reason or
another (e.g. designed by the Emperor's cousin)?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 08:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeffrey Malone)
Date: Tue Jun 18 07:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] immortal hyperintelligent posthuman beings
References: <OFEBFA207B.72E483CC-ON42256BDC.00365626@ko.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c216d4$12d4a9c0$097054d2@1338700057>

A facinating game...but it was difficult enought to get COC players
interested in Nephilim...let alone Traveller players...

J.M. Malone
----- Original Message -----
From: Clint Rynners <crynners@afr.ko.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 8:15 PM
Subject: [TML] immortal hyperintelligent posthuman beings


>
> "> Lots of aliens and FTL travel are *really* cool, but becoming an
> > immortal hyperintelligent posthuman being is IMHO even better.
>
> Oh yes, definitely.  If it weren't for the richness of detail already
> developed in Traveller, I'd ditch it in a heartbeat and go for a
> setting that *really* makes use of technology, and explore the various
> sociological and individual implications."
>
>
> Although I'm sure many people on the TML are familiar with the Orion's Arm
> Website, herewith the link. Quite interesting - a future posited on
> 'immortal hyperintelligent posthuman beings' who are nevertheless very low
> down the food chain, given that some AIs have reached the status of gods.
>
> The link was created in Lotus Notes, which is very klunky at the best of
> times, so forgive me if it does not work.
>
> Regards
>
> Clint Rynners
>
>
> http://www.kheper.auz.com/orions_arm/index.html
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 08:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Jun 18 07:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] CHAUCHAT  - you mean the Gazelle, or was it the Kinunir?
Message-ID: <200206181433.ISN02671@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>From: Tod Glenn asks
>Subject: Re: [TML] CHAUCHAT   
>Naturally, this brings up the question, are there 
>particularly bad designs in Imperial service (small arms, 
>ships, etc)  that persist for one reason or
>another (e.g. designed by the Emperor's cousin)?
>--

Or do they persist because they're cheap, or because they 
work well enough?

If all the Gazelle has to fight most of the time is lightly 
armed merchants, chasing down idiot parties of merchants who 
go bad (like some PC parties I've known in the past), it's 
probably good enough.  The Kinunir is also OK as a patrol 
frigate of sorts for this kind of duty.

But in a real naval situation?

I don't even think that the AHL was that good of a design.

Now all may throw near-c rocks at me...
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 08:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Jun 18 07:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Burying the hatchet with the TNErs
References: <000001c216ab$226eca60$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>
Message-ID: <005001c216d9$29e84f40$7aeb93c3@martinjd>

> Is that Silent Tower? I haven't received any mail from that list since
late
> February...


The list moved to another server, or something. But it's alive and well/.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 09:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Bryn=20Monnery?=)
Date: Tue Jun 18 08:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: FFW and Ground Forces Reconcilling them
In-Reply-To: <20020618085311.F32AB27B64@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020618150149.54896.qmail@web13905.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi,

Your posted orbat essentially corresponds to mine
exactly, although I have modified GF a bit (notably, I
failed to mention that all BE's were traded up to
TL-15 standard. I find a problem with the concept of
TL-8 Imperial Worlds not buying TL-15 armaments. Low
tech African nations today buy modern arms for their
armies).

You do the other combatants? I'd like to compare them
too.

Bryn

=====
"I knew it on the roof that night. We were brothers, Roy Batty and I! Combat models of the highest order. We had fought in wars not yet dreamed of... in vast nightmares still unnamed. We were the new people... Roy and me and Rachael! We were made for this world. It was ours!"

- Final Line of Blade Runner: Original Preview Cut

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 09:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Jun 18 08:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3807@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Does making a Famille Spofulam Supplement count?  >:D

http://zho.berka.com/goodies/lbb_gd.cgi?toptext=For+INSANE+Referees+Only&booktext=Supplement+82b&subtext=Famille+Spofulam&timeplace=in+the+Insane+Future&bottext=vision-forge-graphics.com&randomcol=Y&redval=149&greenval=114&blueval=114&gifguf=gif

Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com [mailto:GDWGAMES@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 6:15 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator


>   Well, so far I've generated about a dozen *very* interesting LBBS so far. 

>The thing's an absolute *hoot*, actually :)

OK, a show of hands:

How many of you have generated a cover dealing with a subject Marc's 
licensing criteria would veto? 

LKW
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 10:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Jun 18 09:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3807@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020618083559.009ec400@mindspring.com>

At 08:05 AM 6/18/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Does making a Famille Spofulam Supplement count?  >:D

You sick, SICK man...

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                     -Adam West, as Batman 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 10:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Tue Jun 18 09:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Typeface
In-Reply-To: <e4.293f843e.2a4003cd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020618160810.31365.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com>

--- GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> >I need some help. Does anyone know what font was
> used
> >for the original LBB's? Not the Covers, but the
> >internal pages.....
> >
> >Thanks in advance.....
> 
> Univers. 11 point. From the IBM electronic selectric
> "golfball" typesetter. I 
> believe we switched to Helvetica later on.
> 
> LKW
> 
  >>
  Thanks, Loren!

  MACessna
  >>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 10:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Jun 18 09:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3808@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I try ;)
Jesse

Doug proclaimed:
You sick, SICK man...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 10:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Tue Jun 18 09:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship rodeo thingy
Message-ID: <3D0F627C.5B57E95F@ameritech.net>

Ship: Ides of the Spinward Marches
Class: Ides of the Spinward Marches
Type: Armed Liner
Architect: David Shayne
Tech Level: 15

USP
         RG-E632432-091109-90009-0 MCr 2,569.760 5 KTons
Bat Bear             1   1 2   1   Crew: 94
Bat                  1   1 2   1   TL: 15

Cargo: 333.000 Passengers: 333 Fuel: 1,700.000 EP: 200.000 Agility: 2
Shipboard Security Detail: 5
Craft: 8 x 20T Launch (lifeboat)
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 24.578   Cost in Quantity: MCr 2,078.208


Detailed Description

HULL
5,000.000 tons standard, 70,000.000 cubic meters, Flattened Sphere
Configuration

CREW
12 Officers, 82 Ratings

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 2G Manuever, Power plant-4, 200.000 EP, Agility 2

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3 Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 100-ton bay, 1 50-ton bay, 30 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
1 50-ton Missile Bay (Factor-9), 20 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organised
into 2 Batteries (Factor-9)

DEFENCES
1 100-ton Repulsor Bay (Factor-9), 10 Triple Sandcaster Turrets
organised into 1 Battery (Factor-9), Nuclear Damper (Factor-1), Meson
Screen (Factor-1)

CRAFT
8 20.000 ton Launch (lifeboat)s (Crew of 0, Cost of MCr 14.000)

FUEL
1,700.000 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
427.0 Staterooms, 333 High Passengers, 333.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None
My entry into the ship rodeo is thus. Permision granted to whoever is
archiving these to archive this.

COST
MCr 2,482.338 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 24.578), 
MCr 1,966.208 in Quantity, plus MCr 112.000 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
148 Weeks Singly, 118 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
Flight crew doubles as stewards. Other crew includes three medics as
well as the other 38 stewards. The launch is fitted with emergency low 
berths for use in case of evacuation.

The Spinward Marches Entertainment Group Ultimate Passenger Service 
proudly presents one of the most truly wonderfull luxury liners ever 
built - The Ides of the Spinward Marches. Designed to provide a 
comfortable and secure voyage for the elite of the Imperium it has  
good legs, nimble manuever ability, and it's bristling batteries make 
for a posh and well armed excursion to almost any spot in the Imperium 
and beyond.

Excursionists will delight in our well apointed interiors and marvel 
at our obsequeous and capable staff while always knowing that our 
vessel is an easy match for most of the known pirate threats currently 
in existence. From our well stocked bars to our sumptuous dining hall 
and tastefully decorated casino passengers will know that they are 
getting the royal treatment in all phases of their journey. 

But the pampering doesn't stop with these ammenities. The Ides of the 
Spinward Marches also boasts an invigorating spa. Be sure to ask for
Olga our renowned Sword Worlder masseuse. For more private relaxation 
our massage therapists are available in your own cabin by special
appointment.

Don't be the last Noble from your subsector to sample the pleasures 
of The Ides of the Spinward Marches.

This has been a paid announcement SMEG/UPS cruise lines. The Ides of the 
Spinward Marches is also available for charter.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 10:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 18 09:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tangling some threads together
Message-ID: <3D0F1E2E.28342.232B91@localhost>

Ok did any of you find this funny that these came out on the same 
day.  

Peter'sStagnant TLs and Tim Littles's Yeehaa! Space Rodeo entry

Hmmm a LBB cover 

Supplement 0 Imperium Trailer Trash.  



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 10:51:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Tue Jun 18 09:51:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Solar Sail question for Ship Rodeo
Message-ID: <000701c216e8$3d3b37b0$1c577b83@Gideon>

I am in need of cost, weight and space required for a deployable solar sail
at TTL D for a ship running in the area of 100 to 200 DT.  Any help would be
appreciated...

Anthony Colosetti

coming soon...The Hughes-class racing yacht


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 11:11:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Jun 18 10:11:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Old Battles, Space Rodeos and the Editions of Traveller
Message-ID: <F165yzu23LiC1h1jYhA00023341@hotmail.com>

From: GypsyComet@aol.com

     "Time to remind the list of buried bitterness, I'm afraid..."


Mr. Comet,

     Remind away, sir!

     "Someone commented earlier today (or late yesterday...) that the ship 
designs posted so far indicated that the TNE folks "hadn't shown up yet"."

     Hmm, I took it that TNE DESIGNS hadn't shown up yet, not TNE FOLKS.  
Then again, I'm a silly old boob.  Given that FF&S designs are rather more 
labor intensive than LBB2 or HG2 designs, I hadn't figured on any TNE 
designs being ready yet.

     "They likely won't be in large numbers, since they've had their own 
mailing list since being made pariahs on this one."

     Well, whatever foolishness occurred happened well before my arrival on 
the TML.  I maintain no "kill-files", attempt to read every message 
regardless of header or poster, so anyone can join our Rodeo.
     Saddle up your designs and trot 'em around the ring!

     "A list, I note, that has a signal-to-noise ratio almost the reverse of 
that found here."

     Now, if we're to mend fences that wasn't a very good way to start.  Was 
it?

     "If you want a significant TNE showing at the Rodeo, you have some 
fences to mend first..."

     I've got nothing to mend, never put a fence up in the first place.  Top 
off your tanks and jump for the Rodeo, pardners.  Everyone is welcome, 
everyone!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 12:05:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 18 11:05:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <20020618161106.53B0527B77@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17KNKY-0005lR-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

> > Aye.  The only point to a job IMHO is to enable one to pay for what
> > one does when not working, and one of those activities is raising a
> > family.  `Career' is way over-rated.
> 
> So is "family". Especially the "raising" part.
> 
> Many people are not emotionally/tempermentally suited to raising kids.
> Others aren't interested. 
> 
> Lacking social presure to have kids, a rather large percentage of
> people *won't*.

It's interesting to note that (at least in the US) there is still a good 
bit of social pressure to reproduce.  I don't know if this is true in 
nations with below zero population growth, but the birthrate in the 
US has decline to almost zero even with considerable of social 
pressure to have children.  As the number of childfree people 
increases presumably this social pressure will decline.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 12:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Jun 18 11:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How good are Darrian SMGs? (was CHAUCHAT Prototype Close Escort)
In-Reply-To: <B9348B23.5FEB9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020618181959.8D36027B61@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/18/02 at 07:00 AM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 6/18/02 6:35 AM, Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance at
>a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz wrote:

>> I have no doubt that the CSRG was a poor weapon (I like the quote from
>> WHB Smith "the First World War's Sten, only without the Sten's
>> reliability"). Its just that to read some authors you'd think it would have
>> been better employed as a club (or the worst machine gun ever, a term I
>> dislike since there are just so many worthy contenders for the title).

>And interestingly, many of those contenders are French in design.

I'm definately not a "gun-person", but even *I* know the reputation of
French arms: terrible machine guns, excellent field artillery.  The
French 75's are classics.

So, bringing this over to Traveller, wouldn't it be interesting to
give the different Traveller states reputations for excellent and
crappy classes of weapons. The Solomani are still tops in meson
weapons, but their plasma weapons couldn't warm a cup of coffee. The
Zhodani have produced a number of excellent hand laser weapons, but
lag way behind everyone in meson weapons. Surprisingly, the Darrians
produce excellent submachine guns, while the Sword Worlder's locally
produced SMGs are so bad their troops regularly ditch them and buy
Darrian or Imperial replacements. 

I'd rather see arms for Traveller discussed: pros, cons, stats, and
quirks, than a rehash of realworld weapons.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 12:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Jun 18 11:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Limited Jumps
References: <3D0E8A5C.626ABE7F@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <3D0F7D37.4020107@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

David Shayne wrote:
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:53:20 -0700
> From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
> 
>>At 2:29 PM -0700 6/17/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
> 
> <snip>
> 
>>Bernard's Star 
> 
> 
> Who's Bernard? And how did he get his own star?


Thhbbt!

Bernard is a well known star domain squatter. When the InterstellNIC 
registration onf Barnard's Star ran out, he hopped right on it.

For any curous about how Barnard's Star was named that see:

http://www.dur.ac.uk/~dph0jrl/one_lab/pm_barn.html

Ask Google and ye shall know enlightenment...or at least some 
entertaining facts...


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun 18 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <E17KNKY-0005lR-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B934CF88.5FF84%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/18/02 11:03 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> 
> It's interesting to note that (at least in the US) there is still a good
> bit of social pressure to reproduce.  I don't know if this is true in
> nations with below zero population growth, but the birthrate in the
> US has decline to almost zero even with considerable of social
> pressure to have children.

Actually, I just checked and the CDC has released figure that show the US
birth rate is on the rise, and reached a 30 year high this last year.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/releases/02news/womenbirths.htm



--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 12:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun 18 11:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How good are Darrian SMGs? (was CHAUCHAT Prototype
 Close Escort)
In-Reply-To: <20020618181959.8D36027B61@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B934D098.5FF85%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/18/02 11:19 AM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

> 
> I'd rather see arms for Traveller discussed: pros, cons, stats, and
> quirks, than a rehash of realworld weapons.


I brought this up earlier, when I asked if there were particularly loathsome
designs in Imperial service owing to reasons other than procurement.

The French problems with weapons were often related to politics, or their
penchant for design by committee.

For example, some powerful noble studies naval architecture in college and
decides he'll design the ultimate fighter.  He uses his influence to get it
adopted, despite the fact that it's one of the worst designs ever fielded.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 13:01:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Jun 18 12:01:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <003201c2164d$0453aa40$1c577b83@Gideon>
References: <B9339331.5F976%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <003201c2164d$0453aa40$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <3d0e7e80.19736161@post.demon.co.uk>

"Anthony Colosetti" <acoloset@kent.edu> writes:

>I would actually like to know what was the percentage of noble to =
commoner
>during the height of the British Empire, the above number might actually=
 not
>be off by that much.

If we assume that the House of Lords had about 1,500 members (probably
on the high side) and that each Lord had nine other members of their
family in the same social class, that gives 15,000 nobles.  Total
population in mid-Victorian times was about 30 million, so the ratio
you're looking for is 0.05%.

On the other hand, that figure excludes all the gentry: the squires,
the country landowners, etc.  One way to calculate their numbers is to
say that before the 1832 Reform Act which gave the vote to the middle
classes, the electorate in England & Wales was about 12% of the adult
male population. (Guesstimate - about 3% of the total population,
assuming that in a pre-industrial economy the number of children would
equal the number of adults).

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 13:03:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Jun 18 12:03:44 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Limited Jumps
In-Reply-To: <3D0FE0D4.19285.62ED5C@localhost>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEDMCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <3D0FE0D4.19285.62ED5C@localhost>
Message-ID: <3d0f756e.496717@post.demon.co.uk>

"Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:

>On 17 Jun 2002, at 16:53, David P. Summers wrote:
>
>> It is canonical, to the degree that the way the Solomani first got to=20
>> Bernard's Star was to jump to an empty hex.
>
>Plus the minor fact that the Vilani managed to cross the J3 gap in the=20
>Solomani Rim with only J2 drives

<fnord>
Ah, but they jumped to that secret star that isn't listed in any
sector maps or Library Data...
</fnord>

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 13:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Jun 18 12:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206170912020.7097-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020618192633.16643.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
> > Does that mean that matriarchal societies will end
> childbearing?
> 
> Don't be silly.  We are talking about the prevalence
> of LARGE families.
> Most people in technologically advanced societies do
> choose to have 1-2
> children, but few choose to have more than 3-4
> because beyond that point
> it's very hard to actually enjoy them.

As a parent of 4*, I can attest to this.  Sometimes I
feel pulled in several directions at once, but I
wouldn't trade any of the 4 of them.  I like kids
(duh) and while I am not opposed to more, I do already
sense the difficulties of enjoying them all. 
Especially when we have a softball game and t-ball
game at the same time.
 
> Personally, I think there are far too many children
> in this society who
> do not receive full-time parenting from anybody; the
> situation would be
> vastly improved if they received it from anyone, be
> that male, female, or
> telekinetic green tree frog with a lightsaber.

I think this is probably the most true statement
presented by anyone on either side of this discussion.
 Kids need parenting.  Unfortunately, we have an
instant society that doesn't want to wait for results.
 This means parents bribe rather than teach.  In
addition, our busy and hectic lives create stress. 
Unfortunately rearing children properly is not
stress-free.  Many parents avoid the stress by
ignoring the ill-tempers of their children.  Much of
this has been self replicating since the 40's or 50's.
 (Probably even before that.)

OBTrav:  Most parents aren't willing to take the time
to rear their children today.  With cheap energy,
people will have more time, but will the attitude
change?  I don't think so, people will still want to
take the easy way out and rearing children is not
easy.

Paul

* - Don't fuss at me about 4 kids, she wanted 4 and
that is what we agreed to before we were married. 
After the second had shoulder displacia(sp) on his way
out, I wanted to call it quits.  She wanted another. 
After the third when the endometriosus(sp) acted up, I
was willing to call it quits so the doctors could get
rid of the parts causing the pain.  She wanted
another.  So we have 4 like we originally agreed and
we love them all very much.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 13:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Jun 18 12:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fundamental Technological Changes?
In-Reply-To: <3d0f756e.496717@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1024429443.9084.ajackson@ping>

Over the range from TL 11 to 15, can people give me some idea of what 'new'
technologies there are?  Stuff gets smaller, materials get tougher, but by and
large I don't see big changes.  Am I missing any?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 14:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Jun 18 13:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fundamental Technological Changes?
Message-ID: <200206182002.ISX09880@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson asks
>Subject: [TML] Fundamental Technological Changes?  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>Over the range from TL 11 to 15, can people give me some 
>idea of what 'new' technologies there are?  Stuff gets 
>smaller, materials get tougher, but by and
>large I don't see big changes.  Am I missing any?
>

The nuclear damper and the meson gun (and the meson screen) 
are pretty fundamental.  The ability to put a power source 
for a plasma or fusion gun into a man-portable pack is pretty 
fundamental (I don't see simple batteries doing the trick).

At TL12, we all get gauss rifles - I might make the argument 
that we'll get them before we get jump drive in RL.

Going from my old copy of Striker (geez, that's a long time 
ago), you're putting tabletop-sized fusion reactors into 
vehicles.  Pretty fundamental, if you consider that there's a 
lot of nearly non-existent shielding, not to mention the fact 
that they work.

Most of the tech timelines in the books deal with either 
weaponry or transport.  Even communication devices seem to be 
thrown into a weapon timeline (meson communciator).

Just because something appears smaller and/or tougher doesn't 
mean that wasn't the result of a fundamental change.  The 
transition from vacuum tubes to transistors, to integrated 
circuits, to the fairly inexpensive chips we have in RL were 
all fundamental transitions, involving great strides in 
physics and engineering.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 14:14:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 18 13:14:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <20020618190108.E014127B61@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17KPLq-00078A-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> on 6/18/02 11:03 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com
> wrote:
> > 
> > It's interesting to note that (at least in the US) there is still a
> > good bit of social pressure to reproduce.  I don't know if this is
> > true in nations with below zero population growth, but the birthrate
> > in the US has decline to almost zero even with considerable of
> > social pressure to have children.
> 
> Actually, I just checked and the CDC has released figure that show the
> US birth rate is on the rise, and reached a 30 year high this last
> year.
> 
> http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/releases/02news/womenbirths.htm

Interesting, thanks.  I had know the US birthrate had been below 
replacement for quite a while, but I hadn't known that it had climbed 
back up to replacement level (I hadn't checked the figures in about 
5 years).  Given how birthrates in much of the first world are now 
below replacement, I am curious as to the reason for the difference 
in the US. 

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 14:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Jun 18 13:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fundamental Technological Changes?
In-Reply-To: <200206182002.ISX09880@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1024432052.2225.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> 
> The nuclear damper and the meson gun (and the meson screen) 
> are pretty fundamental.  The ability to put a power source 
> for a plasma or fusion gun into a man-portable pack is pretty 
> fundamental (I don't see simple batteries doing the trick).

Ok, I should start with TL 12 instead of 11, since all the technologies you
mention are available at TL 12 (they get better later, but they exist at TL
12).
> Just because something appears smaller and/or tougher doesn't 
> mean that wasn't the result of a fundamental change.

Sure, but I'm concerned with changes that make obvious differences, not
internal changes.  For example, the invention of the automobile makes obvious
changes, and would be of interest.  On the other hand, the invention of a cheap
efficient fuel cell that replaces the internal combustion engine, while a
pretty major technological jump, doesn't really alter how cars are used, and
therefore would not be of interest here.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 14:32:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Tue Jun 18 13:32:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship Rodeo Entry: Hughes-class Racing Yacht
Message-ID: <002301c21707$0ef08990$1c577b83@Gideon>

Permission to repost this design is given to Mr. Zeitlin

Ship: Hughes
Class: Hughes
Type: Racing Yacht
Architect: Anthony Colosetti
Tech Level: 13

USP
         YF-11366C1-000000-00000-0 MCr 123.060 130 Tons
Bat Bear                           Crew: 1
Bat                                TL: 13

Cargo: 1.300 Fuel: 46.800 EP: 7.800 Agility: 5
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 1.231   Cost in Quantity: MCr 98.448

Detailed Description

HULL
130.000 tons standard, 1,820.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration

CREW
Pilot

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 6G Manuever, Power plant-6, 7.800 EP, Agility 5

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3fib Computer

HARDPOINTS
None

ARMAMENT
None

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
46.800 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
2.0 Staterooms, 1.300 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 124.291 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 1.231), MCr 98.448 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
45 Weeks Singly, 36 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
The Hughes was designed and commissioned by Baroness Cynthia Hayes, an avid
pilot and yacht racer.  After entering the Hughes in the annual Capital Tour
Run (a point to point held in the Core) and winning, the rights to the
design were sold to a small manufacturing firm on the Baroness's homeworld.
The firm, Ukena Lines, produced 173 Hughes-class yachts between 963 and
1106.  No further orders have been placed with the firm since 1106 but plans
and spec sheets are kept on hand in case anyone wishes to order one.

The long, sleek needle hull is designed for efficiency and speed not luxury.
While the ship is quite capable of being run by one individual, Baroness
Hayes was not as much of an engineer as she was a pilot and navigator.  Her
noble bearing would never of allowed for her to share a stateroom with her
racing engineer (a family retainer and retired navy petty officer) so she in
stalled a stateroom just aft of the engine room.  The unique feature of this
room is its modular design.  The room displaces the full 54 cubic meters
instead allowing for the typical practice of dividing the allocated tonnage
to room and living space.  The room amenities are designed to fold into the
wall and the aft bulkhead can open to space.  The purpose for this was to
appease the whims of the Baroness's lover who was (in addition to being a
superb engineer) was an avid light sailor.  When he was aboard ship the
stateroom was converted to carry a small deployable solar sail (and he
shared the Baroness's stateroom, much to her family's distress).

Today there are numerous Hughes-class ships still plying the space lanes.
Many are still used for racing but a number have found there way into the
hands of smugglers and other couriers in need of high speed, low mass ships.
The spare stateroom once designed to allow for the deployable sail is used
as a small cargo bay.  Such ships usually convert the small 1 ton cargo area
(normally used for supplies) into fire control for a retrofitted turret.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 14:34:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Jun 18 13:34:26 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: "Annoying" Rodeo ship??
Message-ID: <3D0F9855.8BAA7B24@mail.cswnet.com>

To Jeff Rowse

Tried to send an email back at you, but it kept bouncing back to me.
My apologies if it was classified; this is the only way I can reply.

> - is it either an Ethically Challenged Merchantman, or has 
>it some particular distinguishing feature that some find offensive

A little of both, plus some other minor details. I went back and worked
it again, so their are two versions, IMTU and normal TU. If I post it,
it will be the normal TU. Its alot less racey.

In your email you had a ship you were working on that falls into the
particular distinguishing feature category. If your ship gets posted,
I'll throw mine in. We'll enjoy the blastwave and the fallout together.

>Please, puh-leaze! let me and/or the TML see it!!

And latter, Alan Spik writes:
>Post it! Post it! Post em All!!!!!

Hmmm. How many Quadlues were you two offering?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
"Bert the Turtle says, DUCK AND COVER!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 14:37:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Tue Jun 18 13:37:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <RELAY39vXsFFsAitVGe00097cb3@relay3.softcomca.com>

Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:

> Does making a Famille Spofulam Supplement count?  >:D

[URL removed to save lives and preserve property]

BAD JESSE! NO BELT-FED!!

    - Mark C.





--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 14:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Jun 18 13:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C380C@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

ROFL!!!
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: markc@peak.org [mailto:markc@peak.org]
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 1:34 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator


Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:

> Does making a Famille Spofulam Supplement count?  >:D

[URL removed to save lives and preserve property]

BAD JESSE! NO BELT-FED!!

    - Mark C.





--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 14:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 18 13:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What Have I Missed?
Message-ID: <d161bed15a00.d15a00d161be@us.army.mil>

Greetings, fellow sophonts!

Have I missed anything interesting on the list during the past month 
and a half?  My e-mail access has been rather sporadic, so I disabled 
TML delivery to my primary address.

Anyway, I should be able to keep up with the TML reasonably effectively 
from this address while I'm deployed in Sinai (I depart Ft. Carson on 
or about 6 July 02).

We now return you to your regularly scheduled flamewars.... ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 14:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Jun 18 13:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <20020618192633.16643.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020618192633.16643.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m3660ge26e.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> As a parent of 4*, I can attest to this.  Sometimes I feel pulled in
> several directions at once, but I wouldn't trade any of the 4 of
> them.  I like kids (duh) and while I am not opposed to more, I do
> already sense the difficulties of enjoying them all.  Especially
> when we have a softball game and t-ball game at the same time.

There were four of us boys--acc. to my folks the first is hard, the
second is harder but the third and fourth are easy--by then one has
gotten used to having no free time.  Whether this is a good o a bad
thing, I'm not so certain...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
All I want is a warm bed and a kind word and unlimited power.
                                        --Ashleigh Brilliant

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 15:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Jun 18 14:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo Entry: Grote Clan Trader
Message-ID: <F98zKkc1F9LIV5oXibx00024a21@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     My first entry:

     A small provincial merchant vessel, the 300 dTon Grote Clan Trader is a 
design that can trace its lineage back to the Rule of Man.  Capable of 
jumping two parsecs, carrying over 100 dTons of cargo, and all while being 
crewed by 5 sophonts, the Clan Trader can operate well along both trading 
mains and outlier systems.  Behind the Claw, the Clan Trader can be seen in 
areas without large, one-parsec mains, such as the Deneb Sector, and 
frontier areas, such as the Foreven Sector.
	Although most of these vessels are owned and operated by clans native to 
Grote/Glisten/Spinward Marches, the robust nature and simple operational 
requirements of the design mean there are many other examples, plus several 
variants, to found Behind the Claw.
	The design firm "Bogle et Fils" of Glisten/Glisten/Spinward Marches first 
laid out the basic Clan Trader plans in 702.  Their work consisted mainly of 
documenting and standardizing a type of vessel already being used throughout 
the Marches.  The manufacturing requirements for the vessel were 
deliberately held to TL 11.  This allowed the Clan Trader to sport a two 
parsec jump drive and still take advantage of the repair facilities on most 
worlds.
	Keeping in mind the level of infrastructure found in most frontier systems, 
the Clan Trader was also laid out as a tail lander.  With its one gee rated 
maneuver drive and contragrav lifters, the vessel can take off and land from 
the simplest of hardstands, no runways or landing fields are necessary.  
Fuel scoops and an onboard purifier enhances the vessel&#8217;s suitability for 
frontier operations.
	The basic Clan Trader sets aside tonnage for three turrets, but the types 
of turrets and weapons installed are normally left up to the owner.  The 
robust and simple nature of the vessel means that an owner must keep a 
weapon&#8217;s energy requirements in mind when arming their vessel.  The Clan 
Trader can provide up to six Imperial Standard Energy Units towards weapon 
requirements, albeit at the loss of some agility.
	The Clan Trader boasts twelve low berths and ten passenger staterooms.  Two 
of those staterooms are somewhat larger than the others and are normally 
used for the high passage trade.  The passenger staterooms, low berths, and 
air/raft are all located on one deck.  The five crew staterooms are located 
one deck above.  Some owners have doubled up on crew accommodations and 
booked passengers into the staterooms on the crew deck.  This does have its 
risks however.
	The standard Imperial/JTAS Joint Universal Ship Profile for the Clan Trade 
is as follows:

Class:	Grote Clan Trader			Architect: Bogle et Fils

	AP &#8211; 3221221 &#8211; 000000 &#8211; 00000 &#8211; 0  MCr 149.934

Cargo: 107.00  Passengers: 10  Low Berths: 12  Fuel: 66.00  EP: 6
Agility: 1
Craft: 1 x 4dT air/raft
Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purifier

Architects Fee: MCr 1.499  Cost in Quantity: MCr 119.947

	The Grote Clan Trader resembles a squat, rounded cone.  This appearance 
reportedly led to the nickname &#8220;Weeble&#8221;, although the reference is obscure.  
A tail lander, the vessel rises from a broad, shallow, rounded bottom up 
five decks to the Trader&#8217;s bridge and dorsal turret.  Equipment and 
accommodations in the vessel are arranged as follows:

Bridge Deck:       bridge, computer, dorsal turret
Crew Deck:         5 crew staterooms, jump drive, upper power plant
Passenger Deck: 10 passenger staterooms, 12 low berths, lower power plant, 
air/raft,
                            7 dTons of passenger and special cargo
Cargo Deck:        100 dTons of cargo space, two body turrets
Drive Deck:         maneuver drive, fuel purification plant

	The Clan Trader&#8217;s fuel is held in tanks surrounding and sheathing the five 
decks.  The cargo deck has two large cargo locks at opposite sides of that 
space from each other.  There is also an airlock next to the air/raft garage 
and another on the bridge deck.  A dedicated elevator from the cargo deck 
can reach the passenger deck.  Another elevator services the crew side of 
the passenger deck and crew deck.  Ladders from the crew and cargo decks 
reach the bridge and drive decks respectively.  Although the passenger deck 
is split into a passenger and crew &#8220;side&#8221;, movement between the two is 
necessarily restricted to a single security lock.
	Two of the Trader&#8217;s three turrets are located on the cargo deck ninety 
degrees around from the two cargo locks.  The third turret is located on the 
Trader&#8217;s &#8220;peak&#8221; or &#8220;nose&#8221;, dorsally on the bridge deck.
	Next, the descriptions of a &#8220;normal&#8221; Clan Trader operating in the Foreven 
Sector and two variants your PCs may run across during their travels.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 15:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Jun 18 14:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
Message-ID: <F203kx9MXPYcEidyiWD00023702@hotmail.com>

From: sneadj@mindspring.com

     "Interesting, thanks.  I had know the US birthrate had been below
replacement for quite a while, but I hadn't known that it had climbed
back up to replacement level (I hadn't checked the figures in about
5 years).  Given how birthrates in much of the first world are now
below replacement, I am curious as to the reason for the difference
in the US."


Mr. Snead,

     Two broad reasons; our left-over 19th century immigration policy and 
the Baby Boom "echo".
     Example of the first: There are travel agencies in Korea, Tawain, and 
elsewhere on the Pacific Rim that arrange "birth trips" for expectant 
mothers.  IIRC, either the LA Times or Orange County newspaper detailed one 
such service over Memorial Day.  8+ month pregnant women routinely fly to 
the US on a six week tourist visa, are put up with families in the US from 
their homelands, and give birth to a spanking new citizen of the good old US 
of A.  Sometimes, they even arrange for c-sections in order to ensure they 
get a citizen.  The prices range around 10K USD.
     Explanation of the second: The Baby Boomers are becoming grandparents!  
To paraphrase Tom Brokaw, the "Worst Generation" is finally being slapped in 
the face with their own mortality and it isn't going to be pretty!  
(maniacal laughter)


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S. Given the "Echo" and our insane immigration policies, the Census 
estimates a US of 400 million by 2075.  Look around, see anyplace for THREE 
more Californias?  Do the Indians have any land left we can steal?


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 15:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 18 14:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] immortal hyperintelligent posthuman beings
In-Reply-To: <001f01c216d4$12d4a9c0$097054d2@1338700057>
References: <OFEBFA207B.72E483CC-ON42256BDC.00365626@ko.com> <001f01c216d4$12d4a9c0$097054d2@1338700057>
Message-ID: <20020619073000.A22353@freeman.little-possums.net>

Clint Rynners wrote:
> Although I'm sure many people on the TML are familiar with the
> Orion's Arm Website, herewith the link.

Fantastic!  I had never heard of it, can you believe that?
Considering that my favourite science fiction authors are Vernor
Vinge, Greg Egan, and David Brin, this is exactly the sort of material
I expect to love.  Now I'm going to have to spend at least a few weeks
devouring it all, and it's *your* fault :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 15:56:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 18 14:56:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Fundamental Technological Changes?
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1024429443.9084.ajackson@ping>
References: <3d0f756e.496717@post.demon.co.uk> <ML-2.3.1024429443.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020619075338.B22353@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Over the range from TL 11 to 15, can people give me some idea of
> what 'new' technologies there are?  Stuff gets smaller, materials
> get tougher, but by and large I don't see big changes.  Am I missing
> any?

TL12 has some extra stuff, but after that I don't think so.  I
remember being very disappointed at that (a long time ago), and
wondering what was the point of calling them distinct tech levels when
so little changed between them.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 16:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Tue Jun 18 15:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fundamental Technological Changes?
In-Reply-To: <20020619075338.B22353@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206182359330.3833-100000@svati>

On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Timothy Little wrote:

>Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> Over the range from TL 11 to 15, can people give me some idea of
>> what 'new' technologies there are?  Stuff gets smaller, materials
>> get tougher, but by and large I don't see big changes.  Am I missing
>> any?
>
>TL12 has some extra stuff, but after that I don't think so.  I
>remember being very disappointed at that (a long time ago), and
>wondering what was the point of calling them distinct tech levels when
>so little changed between them.

So, does anyone have any ideas for new technologies between TL12 and
TL15?

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 16:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Jun 18 15:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <F203kx9MXPYcEidyiWD00023702@hotmail.com>
References: <F203kx9MXPYcEidyiWD00023702@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3ofe8ckc8.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> Look around, see anyplace for THREE more Californias?

Come out west sometime...

And I like our immigration laws--wish they were even more lax.
Ideally we could arrange an immigration-NAFTA with Canada and Mexico.
But first we need to get rid of the stupidity which makes new citizens
a liability rather than an asset.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe
what you just said.                           --William F. Buckley, Jr.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 16:10:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Jun 18 15:10:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Fundamental Technological Changes?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206182359330.3833-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <B934FD1F.60041%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/18/02 3:00 PM, Tommy Grav at tommy.grav@astro.uio.no wrote:

> 
> So, does anyone have any ideas for new technologies between TL12 and
> TL15?

Completely artificial life forms?  Not geneered versions of existing ones,
but completely new creatures (for good or ill).

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 16:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Tue Jun 18 15:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fundamental Technological Changes?
In-Reply-To: <B934FD1F.60041%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206190014220.3833-100000@svati>

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

>> So, does anyone have any ideas for new technologies between TL12 and
>> TL15?
>
>Completely artificial life forms?  Not geneered versions of existing ones,
>but completely new creatures (for good or ill).

I'm not sure if I understand. Are you talking about creating new biological
races totally independent of existing ones? If so at what TL would you put it
and what would be the prime us of it?

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 16:22:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Jun 18 15:22:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Fundamental Technological Changes?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206182359330.3833-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1024438680.5089.ajackson@ping>

Tommy Grav writes:

> So, does anyone have any ideas for new technologies between TL12 and
> TL15?

Well, I'm not really looking for new technologies, I'm just finding more
justification for assigning them all to the same TL in GURPS ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 16:27:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 18 15:27:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Solar Sail question for Ship Rodeo
In-Reply-To: <000701c216e8$3d3b37b0$1c577b83@Gideon>
References: <000701c216e8$3d3b37b0$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <20020619082508.C22353@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Colosetti wrote:
> I am in need of cost, weight and space required for a deployable
> solar sail at TTL D for a ship running in the area of 100 to 200 DT.
> Any help would be appreciated...

Well, current (TTL-8) solar sail candidates are on the order of 5
grams per square metre.  By TTL-D, I would imagine that should be
greatly reduced.  Perhaps an areal density of 0.1 g/m^2 might be
achievable with advanced (read expensive) materials.  These might cost
say 10 kCr/km^2.  Perhaps each dton of volume could hold furled sails
and rigging for up to 30 square kilometres area, with a mass of about
3 tonnes (including sail handling machinery) and cost about 500 kCr.

Each square kilometre of sail area in a stellar 'life zone' would
produce up to 9 newtons of thrust (2 pounds).  Compared to any common
Traveller propulsion technology, solar sails are very slow.

So a 100 dton solar racing craft might have 90 dtons of solar sails
which expand to about 70 kilometres across, a mass of not much more
than the base 270 tonnes of sail and rigging (everything else would be
constructed to be as light as possible), and a cost of something like
50 MCr or so.


The costs and masses are purely guesses, they could easily vary by a
factor of 30 either way depending upon what sort of assumptions you
want to make about the setting.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 16:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Jun 18 15:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] TNE, fence mending and such matters
Message-ID: <006e01c21718$4ee3c880$61ea93c3@martinjd>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C21720.9D70C180
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I dunno if any TNE-list members have gripes with the TML. All I know is =
that the TNE community has a list with a low noise level and an active =
community. TML is just as active but noisier, and so I guess some TNE =
folks have chosen to remain subbed only to their "home" list.

It's catch-22 here... TNE content is required to lead TNE-list folks =
back here, and TNE content is nicely catered for on TNE list. But there =
may be things afoot.=20

------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C21720.9D70C180
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I dunno if any TNE-list members have =
gripes with=20
the TML. All I know is that the TNE community has a list with a low =
noise level=20
and an active community. TML is just as active but noisier, and so I =
guess some=20
TNE folks have chosen to remain subbed only to their "home" =
list.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It's catch-22 here... TNE content is =
required to=20
lead TNE-list folks back here, and TNE content is nicely catered for on =
TNE=20
list. But there may be things afoot. </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C21720.9D70C180--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 16:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Tue Jun 18 15:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How good are Darrian SMGs? (was CHAUCHAT Prototype Close
 Escort)
References: <20020618181959.8D36027B61@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D0FB5A5.FEAB8F2E@attbi.com>


Eris Reddoch wrote:

> So, bringing this over to Traveller, wouldn't it be interesting to
> give the different Traveller states reputations for excellent and
> crappy classes of weapons. The Solomani are still tops in meson
> weapons, but their plasma weapons couldn't warm a cup of coffee. The
> Zhodani have produced a number of excellent hand laser weapons, but
> lag way behind everyone in meson weapons. Surprisingly, the Darrians
> produce excellent submachine guns, while the Sword Worlder's locally
> produced SMGs are so bad their troops regularly ditch them and buy
> Darrian or Imperial replacements.

Droyne built main lasing elements are some of the most efficient in the
universe, but they are only available in non mil quantities, if you can
get them to sell them to you at all.

Solomani especially Waun manufactured fire control systems are high sought
after on the rim......

>
> I'd rather see arms for Traveller discussed: pros, cons, stats, and
> quirks, than a rehash of realworld weapons.

And another question what are you favorite weapons, My all time
fav is the ASR the assault rocket launcher from the Journal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 16:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Jun 18 15:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Minimum population for tech levels
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEEACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: sneadj@mindspring.com

>Given how birthrates in much of the first world are now
>below replacement, I am curious as to the reason for the difference
>in the US.

It's probably because education has simultaneously been in long decline in
the United States.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 16:58:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Jun 18 15:58:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Fundamental Technological Changes?
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1024438680.5089.ajackson@ping>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206182359330.3833-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <3D10636B.21718.6A1F58@localhost>

On 18 Jun 2002 at 15:18, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Tommy Grav writes:
> 
> > So, does anyone have any ideas for new technologies between TL12 and
> > TL15?
> 
> Well, I'm not really looking for new technologies, I'm just finding more
> justification for assigning them all to the same TL in GURPS ;)

What more justification do you need? Aside from better armour, bigger 
jump drives and a few new toys there's very little change from TL11 to 
TL15. I was looking through _The Traveller Book_ the other day and the 
thing that struck me was the way just about everything in it was TL12 
or lower. I sort of had the feeling that any world above about TL13 
would probably be capable of just about any technological marvel the 
referee needed for plot purposes, and that's why TL12 used to be 
considered "Imperial average".

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 17:00:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Jun 18 16:00:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Fundamental Technological Changes?
In-Reply-To: <200206182002.ISX09880@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D10636B.3819.6A1E9A@localhost>

On 18 Jun 2002 at 16:02, John T. Kwon wrote:

> At TL12, we all get gauss rifles - I might make the argument 
> that we'll get them before we get jump drive in RL.

According to FFS they can be made at TL10 if you want. Aside from 
bigger jump drives and better armour there's very little that's new 
after TL12 (meson screens) until TL17, barring reverse engineered black 
globes at TL15.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 17:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn wilson)
Date: Tue Jun 18 16:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fundamental Technological Changes?
Message-ID: <F238nSAuIsfOw27TAV200021552@hotmail.com>

> > The nuclear damper and the meson gun (and the meson screen)
> > are pretty fundamental.  The ability to put a power source
> > for a plasma or fusion gun into a man-portable pack is pretty
> > fundamental (I don't see simple batteries doing the trick).
>
>Ok, I should start with TL 12 instead of 11, since all the technologies you
>mention are available at TL 12 (they get better later, but they exist at TL
>12).
> > Just because something appears smaller and/or tougher doesn't
> > mean that wasn't the result of a fundamental change.
>
>Sure, but I'm concerned with changes that make obvious differences, not
>internal changes.  For example, the invention of the automobile makes 
>obvious
>changes, and would be of interest.  On the other hand, the invention of a 
>cheap
>efficient fuel cell that replaces the internal combustion engine, while a
>pretty major technological jump, doesn't really alter how cars are used, 
>and
>therefore would not be of interest here.


Try GURPS Ultra tech I and II, they have more ideas.  Just remember that 
Traveller TL-15 is equivalent to GURPS TL-12.  And GURPS tech goes up to 16.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 17:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Jun 18 16:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Solar Sail question for Ship Rodeo
Message-ID: <200206182316.ITE00071@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

It's probably not as aesthetically pleasing (unless you want 
to speculate on having corona effects), but a magnetosphere 
is proposed currently that would have over fifty times the 
area of any solar sail, and have a much better efficiency.

I'll see if I can dig up that copy of Discover magazine from 
the bathroom...

Imagine a ship with a magnetosphere (neat iridescent plasma 
effects). Would be hard to miss on a visual, as the proposed 
design implies a field nearly 100km across.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 17:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Jun 18 16:19:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Fundamental Technological Changes?
In-Reply-To: <20020618223116.3447C27B97@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17KSFL-0003FM-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>

> Over the range from TL 11 to 15, can people give me some idea of what
> 'new' technologies there are?  Stuff gets smaller, materials get
> tougher, but by and large I don't see big changes.  Am I missing any?

(Using CT and MT) TL 12 has two big changes:  Meson Guns and 
Low Autonomous Robot Brains (CT Book 8).  TL 11 to 12 is one of 
the bigger jumps, with practical robots being TL 12.  Other than 
that, you get reanimation of the recently dead at TL 13, exact 
genetic engineering, meson communicators, memory erasure and 
computer-brain interfaces at TL 14.  TL 15 gets you primitive black, 
globes pseudobiological robots and prosthetics.  Basically, I see 
big changes at TL 12 and 14 and not much on the odd numbered 
TLs.  If I were doing Traveller, I'd drop all the odd numbers TLs and 
have a scale going from 0 to 9 (equal to a CT range of 0 to 16)  

One thing I like about GT is the compression of TLs.  Once you get 
above TL 7 (GURPS) 4 or 5 TLs seems perfectly adequate to cover 
the range from advanced interplanetary travel to TL 15.  8 more TLs 
is IMHO too many.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com   



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 17:21:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Jun 18 16:21:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Fundamental Technological Changes?
In-Reply-To: <F238nSAuIsfOw27TAV200021552@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1024442319.1183.ajackson@ping>

Shawn wilson writes:

> Try GURPS Ultra tech I and II, they have more ideas.

None of which I'm interested in.  I'm looking for canonical tech, not alternate
tech.

>  Just remember that Traveller TL-15 is equivalent to GURPS TL-12.

Only in the GURPSverse.  An unrestricted GURPS TL 12 society would chop through
the Imperium like a hot knife through butter.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 17:26:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Jun 18 16:26:20 2002
Subject: [TML] What Have I Missed?
In-Reply-To: <d161bed15a00.d15a00d161be@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020618155408.009e71d0@mindspring.com>

At 01:40 PM 6/18/02 -0700, you wrote:

>Have I missed anything interesting on the list during the past month
>and a half?  My e-mail access has been rather sporadic, so I disabled
>TML delivery to my primary address.

Well, we had a great orgy at BayCon in your name..

other than that, well, to be honest, I've been writing and deleting 90% of 
the list unread.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry                gridlore@mindspring.com
     http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
       http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

I have no problem with secondary sexual characteristics.
It's just the ones that look glued on that bother me.
                         --Rose (http://i.am/rwp/)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 17:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Jun 18 16:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Burying the hatchet with the TNErs
In-Reply-To: <20020618161106.53B0527B77@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020618161106.53B0527B77@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <2ugvguoq11osbi1os95tr296tb97gdecib@4ax.com>

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:09:03 -0700, "MJ Dougherty"
<martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:

>> Is that Silent Tower? I haven't received any mail from that list since late
>> February...


>The list moved to another server, or something. But it's alive and well/.

If that means that the info I was just given is inaccurate, may I have
accurate information, please?

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 17:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Jun 18 16:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What Have I Missed?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020618155408.009e71d0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D0FC759.2040000@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> Well, we had a great orgy at BayCon in your name..
> 
> other than that, well, to be honest, I've been writing and deleting 90% 
> of the list unread.
> 

Ye ghods Douglas!! How many mail aliases *do* you have?? Writing 90% of 
the list...wow...:-P

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 18:10:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Jun 18 17:10:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Fundamental Technological Changes?
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1024429443.9084.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1024429443.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3d0fbe60.19173795@post.demon.co.uk>

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> writes:

>Over the range from TL 11 to 15, can people give me some idea of what =
'new'
>technologies there are?  Stuff gets smaller, materials get tougher, but =
by and
>large I don't see big changes.  Am I missing any?

Going purely by Classic Traveller:

TL11 gives us meson guns and combat armour.

TL12 gives fusion guns, nuclear dampers, meson screens, grav belts,
gauss rifles, and IR chameleon options on suits.  Nuclear damper
technology is probably the big one here.

TL13 gives battledress, x-ray lasers, drone vehicles, and californium
nuclear autocannon shells...

TL14 gives gravitic recoil compensation for portable energy weapons

TL15 gives forcefield generators.

Some of the quantitative changes are also big enough to be a
difference in quality, too.

At TL10, the largest starship you can build is 49,999 tons.
At TL11, the limit is 99,999 tons (twice as big)
At TL12, the limit is 999,999 tons (ten times the size)
At TL13 there is no limit in size.

At TL 15, power plants halve in size and cost compared to TL13-14 ones
of the same power rating.

TL14 bonded superdense is twice as strong as an equal mass of TL12-13
material.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 18 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Burying the hatchet with the TNErs
In-Reply-To: <2ugvguoq11osbi1os95tr296tb97gdecib@4ax.com>
References: <20020618161106.53B0527B77@mail.travellercentral.com> <2ugvguoq11osbi1os95tr296tb97gdecib@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020619104334.A22704@freeman.little-possums.net>

Oh dear, was I the only person to misread the Subject line as "Burying
the hatchet *in* the TNErs"?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 18:47:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Jun 18 17:47:34 2002
Subject: [TML] What Have I Missed?
In-Reply-To: <3D0FC759.2040000@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020618155408.009e71d0@mindspring.com> <3D0FC759.2040000@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020619104515.B22704@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Ye ghods Douglas!! How many mail aliases *do* you have?? Writing 90%
> of the list...wow...:-P

He delegates to all those penguin minions of his ;)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 18:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Wayne)
Date: Tue Jun 18 17:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scout Filk (sort of)
Message-ID: <001301c2172c$36cd0180$3a0f4518@gv.shawcable.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_9xUNVfrv6tprzU10luUcPQ)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 Got the following in an e-mail, and thought it would make a great unofficial scout oath.

The Beer Prayer 
 
 Our lager, 
Which art in barrels, 
Hallowed be thy drink. 
Thou will be drunk, 
At home as in the tavern. 
Give us this day our foamy head, 
And forgive us our spillages, 
As we forgive those who spill against us. 
Lead us not to incarceration, 
But deliver us from hangovers. 
For thine is the Ale, the Bitter and the Lager. 
Forever and ever, 
Barmen 


Wayne
ewart67@shaw.ca

"Give a man fire, and he is warm for the night. Set a man on fire and he is warm for life." Terry Pratchett

--Boundary_(ID_9xUNVfrv6tprzU10luUcPQ)
Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;Got the following in an e-mail, and thought it would make a 
great&nbsp;unofficial scout&nbsp;oath.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The Beer Prayer </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV> Our lager, </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Which art in barrels, </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Hallowed be thy drink. </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Thou will be drunk, </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>At home as in the tavern. </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Give us this day our foamy head, </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>And forgive us our spillages, </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>As we forgive those who spill against us. </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Lead us not to incarceration, </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>But deliver us from hangovers. </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>For thine is the Ale, the Bitter and the Lager. </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Forever and ever, </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Barmen </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Wayne<BR><A href="mailto:ewart67@shaw.ca">ewart67@shaw.ca</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Give a man fire, and he is warm for the night. Set a man on fire and he is 
warm for life." Terry Pratchett</DIV></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_9xUNVfrv6tprzU10luUcPQ)--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 19:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Jun 18 18:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
Message-ID: <004401c2172d$bf892ac0$d4b18b90@computer>

From: Leonard Erickson
> And why people won't want to have *other* people's kids around.

The kind of privatised child raising that exists in present day Western
societies is, like a lot of things about these societies, historically
rather unusual. Even just a generation or two ago, parents would often be
supported by various other relatives, some with kids of their own.

In less fragmented societies, this kind of support becomes even stronger.

A random thought: smaller families means less support for the parents of the
children that are born, which makes it harder to raise children, reinforcing
the tendency to have fewer children!

But of course, the real reason for lower birthrates is that women have more
choices as to what they are going to do with their lives. This is a good
thing.

OBTRAV: Pretty obviously, mucking about with family structures is a good way
of creating "alien" societies, human or otherwise. Unfortunately, the only
reasonably detailed canonical consideration of this was in T4 Pocket
Empires, which wimped out hugely.

This wimp out, however, only applies to human societies. The alien societies
have been handled quite well in this area.

Doug absolutely must write Chez Jump/Chez Beowulf. This is the only way we
are going to get an accurate representation of how people live in the Third
Imperium.

It's a great joke, isn't it - in the Far Future, a time of drama and epic
adventure, people basically devote their lives to loafing, drinking, and the
pursuit of nookie.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 19:07:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Jun 18 18:07:16 2002
Subject: [TML] immortal hyperintelligent posthuman beings
References: <20020618161106.53B0527B77@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004501c2172d$c3138a00$d4b18b90@computer>

> From: "Clint Rynners"
> "> Lots of aliens and FTL travel are *really* cool, but becoming an
> > immortal hyperintelligent posthuman being is IMHO even better.
> Oh yes, definitely.  If it weren't for the richness of detail already
> developed in Traveller, I'd ditch it in a heartbeat and go for a
> setting that *really* makes use of technology, and explore the various
> sociological and individual implications."

Only if the "immortal hyperintelligent posthuman" beings were zoomorphs.
Like, say, mice.

Then you could explore the meaning of life, the universe, and everything.
 : )

 Silliness aside, I doubt I could actually play in such a setting unless I
wrote it! I find it easier to deal with a Space Opera full of Emperors and
cutlass-wielding Marines than with the sadly half-baked ideas that tend to
infect most "serious" SF.

Ken Macleod and Iain Banks excluded, of course.

PS: My next rodeo entry should be ready tonight or tomorrow. It will be an
Exploratory Commerce Merchantman. Really.

I've finally worked out that there was only one way to generate my "dream"
character in CT, and it's the way that gives the best ships too. At least
they're the best ships once you launder them so that they're legit.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 20:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Tue Jun 18 19:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GABRIEL class missile corvette.
In-Reply-To: <001301c2172c$36cd0180$3a0f4518@gv.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020618211622.00969260@minn.net>

I downloaded HGS today. Feels like I'm cheating sometimes.


Ship: Gabriel
Class: Gabriel
Type: Missile Corvette
Architect: Leslie Bates
Tech Level: 10

USP
         LM-31168C1-100000-30003-0 MCr 347.536 300 Tons
Bat Bear                   1   1   Crew: 9
Bat                        1   1   TL: 10

Cargo: 8.000 Fuel: 84.000 EP: 24.000 Agility: 6
Craft: 1 x 4T Air/Raft
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 3.475   Cost in Quantity: MCr 278.029


Detailed Description

HULL
300.000 tons standard, 4,200.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 4 Engineers, Medic, 2 Gunners

ENGINEERING
Jump-1, 6G Manuever, Power plant-8, 24.000 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3fib Computer

HARDPOINTS
3 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
2 Triple Missile Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-3), 1 Triple Beam
Laser Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-3)

DEFENCES
Armoured Hull (Factor-1)

CRAFT
1 4.000 ton Air/Raft (Crew of 0, Cost of MCr 0.000)

FUEL
84.000 Tons Fuel (2 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
5.0 Staterooms, 8.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 351.011 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 3.475), MCr 278.029 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
71 Weeks Singly, 57 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
Tech Level 10 Terran Confederation missile corvette. 
=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" 	-- Sluggy Freelance, June 18, 02 [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 20:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Jun 18 19:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Yugobox FOUND!
Message-ID: <3D0FEAA8.3EAC5DE1@mail.cswnet.com>

I either I just found it or you've been working hard on it today Mr.
Johnson.

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/deckplans.html

The basic YugoBox: 


YugoBox J2 Far Trader (QSDS 1.5)
 
Tons: 200 Std (Box S)  Volume: 2800 m^3           Cost: 57.8 MCr
Crew: 2                High/Mid Pass: 0/2         Low: 0
Cargo: 115.5 Std       Controls: Std Civ.         TL: 12
 
8 Size                               2 Jump Drive (20 Std/Pc Fuel)
                                     1 Maneuver (Thruster)
                                     1.3 Power Plant (10+20+100 MW)
                                     41 Fuel (Scoop 80, Refine 3)
                                     A1 P3 J0 Sensors (# Stealth/Cloak)
                                     0 Armor, 6 Structure
 
Crew Detail: Max Crew:4 (1 Pilot, 1 Navigator, 1 Engineer, 1 Sensor)
             Typical: 2 (1 Pilot/Navigator 1 Engineering/Electronics)

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 23:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Jun 18 22:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Roseberrys Rodeo Entry#6
Message-ID: <3D100FBF.BAEFFFD7@mail.cswnet.com>

Preface Note: All the designs I've entered have been constructed using
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance's High Guard Shipyard program. I forgot to
mention that in my previous posts. I would'nt have 6 entrys in this
Rodeo without that program. THANK YOU <<<Salute>>>

Ship: Shashkitar
Class: Shashkitar
Type: Battle Cruiser
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 13

USP
         BC-R7347G4-053307-90M38-0 MCr 86,290.048 116 KTons
Bat Bear             7   Y 4 14Y   Crew: 1580
Bat                  A   Z 5 15Z     TL: 13

Cargo: 383.000 Fuel: 54,520.000 EP: 8,120.000 Agility: 4 Shipboard
Security Detail: 116 Marines: 452 Drop Capsules: 452
Craft: 30 x 95T TL13 Shuttle, 5 x 630T Abbu Tanker
Fuel Treatment: On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 3 x Model/6fib Computers 1 x Bridge 3 x Factor 2 Nuclear
Dampers 3 x Factor 2 Meson Screens
Substitutions: Y = 35 Z = 50

Architects Fee: MCr 846.552   Cost in Quantity: MCr 69,359.008


Detailed Description

HULL
116,000.000 tons standard, 1,624,000.000 cubic meters, Dispersed
Structure Configuration

CREW
93 Officers, 1035 Ratings, 452 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 4G Manuever, Power plant-7, 8,120.000 EP, Agility 4

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/7fib Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 3 Model/6fib Backup Computers

HARDPOINTS
Spinal Mount, 55 100-ton bays, 50 50-ton bays, 70 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
Particle Accelerator Spinal Mount (Factor-M), 5 100-ton Meson Bays
(Factor-3), 50 50-ton Missile Bays (Factor-8), 50 Triple Beam Laser
Turrets organised into 5 Batteries (Factor-9)

DEFENCES
50 100-ton Repulsor Bays (Factor-7), 20 Triple Sandcaster Turrets
organised into 10 Batteries (Factor-5), Nuclear Damper (Factor-3), Meson
Screen (Factor-3)
3 Nuclear Damper Backups (Factor-2), 3 Meson Screen Backups (Factor-2)

CRAFT
30 95.000 ton TL13 Shuttles (Crew of 2, Cost of MCr 35.500), 5 630.000
ton Abbu Tankers (Crew of 4, Cost of MCr 113.970)

FUEL
54,520.000 Tons Fuel (4 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
793.0 Staterooms, 452 Drop Capsule Launchers, 383.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 85,501.750 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 846.552), MCr
67,724.158 in Quantity, plus MCr 1,634.850 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
203 Weeks Singly, 162 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
The Shashkitar is a mainstay of the Lunion Colonial Navy, in spite of
its difficulty getting refueled. It takes all five Abbu tankers 19.7
trips to a fueling site to top off the Shashkitar. While some
politicians in the Ministry of Defence call for its retirement, the
Admiralty and retired navy personnel have succeeded in stoping all
attempts to strike the ship from the fleet list.

Ship: TL 13 Shuttle
Class: TL 13 Shuttle
Type: Shuttle Craft
Architect: Standard
Tech Level: 13

USP
         YS-0203301-000000-00003-0 MCr 35.500 95 Tons
Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 2
Bat                            1   TL: 13
Cargo: 0.350 Fuel: 32.850 EP: 2.850 Agility: 3
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.355   Cost in Quantity: MCr 28.400


Detailed Description

HULL
95.000 tons standard, 1,330.000 cubic meters, Cone Configuration

CREW
Pilot, 1 Other Crew

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 3G Manuever, Power plant-3, 2.850 EP, Agility 3

AVIONICS
Bridge, No Computer Installed

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMAMENT
1 Triple Missile Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-3)

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
32.850 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance, plus 30.000 tons
of additional fuel)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
59 Acceleration Couches, 0.350 Ton Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 35.855 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.355), MCr 28.400 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
37 Weeks Singly, 29 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
Craft carries 30dt extra fuel for tankage.

Ship: Abubu
Class: Abubu 
Type: Tanker
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 13

USP
         QT-6601111-000000-00000-0 MCr 113.970 630 Tons
no weapons                                  Crew: 4  TL: 13
Cargo: 0.000 Fuel: 560.800 EP: 6.300 Agility: 1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 1.140   Cost in Quantity: MCr 91.176

Detailed Description

HULL
630.000 tons standard, 8,820.000 cubic meters, Flattened Sphere
Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, Engineer, Medic

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 1G Manuever, Power plant-1, 6.300 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/1 Computer

HARDPOINTS
None

ARMAMENT
None

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
560.800 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance, plus 554.500
tons of additional fuel)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
2.0 Staterooms, 0.000 Ton Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 115.110 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 1.140), MCr 91.176 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
101 Weeks Singly, 81 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
Fuel Tanker carries 554.5dt extra fuel.


Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
"Bert the Turtle says, DUCK AND COVER!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 23:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Mellman)
Date: Tue Jun 18 22:08:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Solar Sail question for Ship Rodeo
Message-ID: <200206190504.BAA28322@shell.cinternet.net>

Anthony Colosetti asked:

 .   I am in need of cost, weight and space required for a deployable solar sail
 .   at TTL D for a ship running in the area of 100 to 200 DT.  Any help would be
 .   appreciated...


I don't know the details which you asked for, but I do know that solar
sails are (relative to Traveller) *VERY* slow.  Interplanetary distances
will take *years*, not the usual Traveller time frame of days or hours
from orbit to jump or vica versa.



b

 ...........................................................................
  Bill Mellman
  mailto:bill@mellman.net
  http://www.mellman.net/bill/
 ...........................................................................

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Jun 18 23:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Jun 18 22:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo Entry: Variants (long)
Message-ID: <F84i4kTtfd3yqFYBPei00025252@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     As promised, the Grote Clan Trader variants.

While not as ubiquitous as the Beowulf or Suleiman, the Grote Clan Trader 
can be a regular site along the space lanes Behind the Claw.  Produced for 
over 400 years, simple to operate and easy to maintain, the Clan Trader and 
its many variants normally enjoy a robust service life, passing through the 
hands of several owners.
	Usual variants of the Trader include a no-passengers version, a one-parsec 
version, and a &#8220;2+1&#8221; version with an internal collapsible 30 dTon fuel tank.
	As much as any of her other sister ships, the &#8220;Wee Willie&#8221; can be thought 
of as a typical Clan Trader.  Laid down on Grote in 1050 for a Clan 
Addakkumak subsidiary, &#8220;Wee Willie&#8221; served her original owners for thirty 
years.  Next, she was sold to a newly founded interface trading company, 
Triangle Ventures, and worked along the Sacnoth-Darrian-Grote route.  With 
the outbreak of the 5th Frontier War, Triangle Ventures ceased operation and 
sold off their assets.  A small Grote trading family, Clan Grampus, 
purchased "Wee Willie&#8221; at auction for under 35 MCr, partially armed her, and 
sent out her to work the coreward half of the Foreven Sector.  &#8220;Wee Willie&#8221; 
hasn&#8217;t seen Imperial space in a decade, exchanging crew and unique trade 
goods with regular high-liners sent out from Grote.

Wee Willie

	AP &#8211; 3221221 &#8211; 030000 &#8211; 10001 &#8211; 0  MCr 151.434 (book) 300 Tons
Bat Bear                        1   1      Crew: 6
Bat                             1   1      TL: 11

Cargo:  107.00  Passengers: 10  Low Berths: 12  Fuel:  66.00  EP:  6
Agility: 1
Craft: 1 x 4dTon air/raft
Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purifier

	&#8220;Wee Willie&#8221; has one mixed, triple turret with the usual laser, sandcaster, 
and missile load out.  In addition to the Clan Trader normal crew of 
pilot/commander, navigator, engineer, steward, and medic, she also has a 
gunner and an additional engineer aboard.  Clan Grampus tries to employ 
skilled stewards and &#8220;Wee Willie&#8221; has been fortunate that several have 
served aboard her in succession.  As a result, she is well known in certain 
circles and rarely jumps without at least one high passage traveller 
onboard.


Low Berth Liner Variant (see notes)

	Coll-Imp Links, a shipping and passenger company from the Imperial client 
state of Collace, operates several low berth liner variants of the Clan 
Trader between Collace, Mertactor, and Dallia in District 268.  Already 
known as a reliable performer, the Grote Clan Trader was transformed by 
&#8220;Hearn Associates&#8221; into a jump3 liner.  Aside from the necessary computer, 
power plant, and jump drive upgrades, the LBL-3D series saw cargo capacity 
drop to 23 dTons, staterooms reduced to three, and two hundred low berths 
installed in the resulting space.  Details of the LBL-3D are as follows:

Ship:  Pickwick			Type:  Liner, provincial
Class: LBL-3D			Architect:  Hearn Associates

	RP &#8211; 3231331 &#8211; 000000-00000-0  MCr 175.00   300 Tons
                                                                             
                                                Crew:  5
                                                    TL:  13

Cargo: 23.00   Low Berths:  200  Fuel:  99.00  EP:  9   Agility:  1
Craft:  1 x 1 4dT air/raft
Architects Fee:  MCr 1.750		Cost in Quantity:  MCr 140.00

	Travelling between three well-patrolled systems, the LBL-3D wasn&#8217;t intended 
to be armed.  The few hulls sold outside of Coll-Imp Links service may be 
armed, but the cramped crew space limits the number of gunners that can be 
carried.
	First laid down in 1095, the lead LBL-3D, the &#8220;Pickwick&#8221;, proved so popular 
that several others vessels were built as well.  &#8220;Pickwick&#8221; is still in 
service and is featured prominently in Coll-Imp Links&#8217; advertising.
        One vessel, the &#8220;Heep&#8221;, quickly earned a reputation as a yard queen, 
experienced several engineering problems and was quickly sold off.  She was 
last reported as part of the Imperial Ministry of Colonization&#8217;s fleet.  
Used to ferry tech reps and other specialists between established MoC 
projects, she continues to be plagued by a poor reputation.  Her defenders 
are quick to dismiss these rumors and point to an extensive refit at Glisten 
after her purchase.
        In late 1115, the &#8220;Fezziwig&#8221; was attacked inbound from the jump 
limit off Dallia.  Patrolling SDBs quickly responded and drove her attacker 
off before any major damage occurred.  No lives were lost among the crew and 
passengers, although the patrollers had to assist with damage control 
efforts.  The reason for the attack has never been officially explained and 
the vessel required major yard work before returning to operation.
        Another LBL-3D, the &#8220;Micawber&#8221;, has been serving charters as a 
mercenary hauler.  While she could never be used in a &#8220;hot&#8221; landing and the 
mercs still need transport for any equipment beyond their personal kits, the 
ability to carry nearly an entire company of troops cheaply still makes her 
a desirable transport.  &#8220;Micawber&#8221; is currently shuttling mercenary troops 
to Ralhe/Five Sisters as the Imperium builds up forces there to take the 
place of the 718th Lift Infantry Brigade.


Q Ship Variant

	The volume of small ship traffic in the Imperium makes a Q-ship doctrine 
very attractive to both the military and law enforcement agencies.  Starport 
bars are rife with travellers&#8217; tales of seemingly innocuous &#8220;Beowulfs&#8221; 
displaying incredible agility and massive weaponry.  It seems that 
everyone&#8217;s cousin knows someone who has seen a &#8220;Marava&#8221; with a particle 
accelerator barbette.  The large &#8220;black&#8221; portions of the Sector and Domain 
budgets only feed these rumors.  One publication, &#8220;Spinward Mechanics&#8221; 
usually devotes a yearly issue to Q-ship sightings and speculation.  
Interestingly enough, a militarized version of the Grote Clan Trader is one 
of the best-documented Q-ship sightings in recent years.
	On 031-1117, a &#8220;Beowulf&#8221; free trader, the &#8220;Zeitlin Zephyr&#8221;, was jumped by 
two Vargr corsairs while attempting to wilderness refueling pass in the 
Yebab/Aramis system.  The celebrated &#8220;March Harrier&#8221; and two other vessels, 
an Arekut transport and an independent seeker, all witnessed the attack.  
The &#8220;Zephyr&#8221; was beyond any help the &#8220;Harrier&#8221; or the others could provide 
and seemed lost, when the familiar shape of a Grote Clan Trader lifted out 
of the gas giant&#8217;s clouds and joined the fight.
	As the &#8220;Harrier&#8221; watched on sensors, the squat, rounded cone closed on the 
Vargr at FOUR gees and announced her arrival with a laser and missile 
volley.  One corsair broke off from its chase of the &#8220;Zephyr&#8221; to engage the 
Trader.  The apparent Q-ship shrugged off two missile strikes and, after 
closing further, gutted the corsair with fire from what could only be fusion 
guns.  The remaining corsair attempted to flee, only to be crippled by laser 
and missile fire from the Q-ship.
	The Q-ship relayed, by voice only, a distress call from the &#8220;Zephyr&#8221; to all 
three ships and then broadcast the Vargr cripples&#8217; positions and courses on 
the Yebab patrol frequency.  After watching the &#8220;Harrier&#8221; match courses and 
dock with &#8220;Zephyr&#8221;, the Q-ship was last seen thrusting for the gas giant&#8217;s 
jump limit.  The &#8220;Harrier&#8221; also reported that the Q-ship used IISS comm 
frequencies.

(For GMs Only!)

Ship:  SM-J-008			Type:  Scout, raider
Class:  Kachina			Architect:  LSP

	SQ &#8211; 3244CJ1 &#8211; 800000 &#8211; 45003 &#8211; 0   MCr  461.580
Bat Bear                        11  1       Crew:9
Bat                             11  1       TL: 15

Cargo: 9.00   Frozen Watch  Fuel  96.00   EP:  36   Agility:  4
Craft: 1 x 4dT air/raft
Fuel Scoops and Fuel Purifier On Board

Architects Fee:  MCr 4.616    Cost in Quantity:  MCr 369.264

	The Kachina class Q-ship is an agile, jump4, four-gee vessel.  The crew 
double bunks in 6 staterooms.  Six low berths are also onboard.  The Kachina 
has an armor level of 8 and sports a 9/fib computer layout.  Armament 
consists of a laser turret, a fusion gun turret, and a missile turret.  
Operated by the IISS, the number of Kachinas in service is unknown, as is 
their deployment.
	Of course, the Imperium can neither confirm nor deny the existence of the 
Kachina.


     This post, and all others I make to the TML, are freely availble to 
anyone who wishes to make use of them.  While an attribution would be nice, 
it isn't even necessary.  If you can use them, use them and have fun!

Notes - IMTU, low berth passage is very cheap and very safe.  Most passenger 
traffic consists of "corpsicles" being shuttled between "slot shops".  This 
traffic is usually subsidized by local governments, like the mail parcels in 
CT.  Following trading mains, low berth travel for students, government 
types, tech reps, businessmen, tourists, and others between major 
destinations can be as low as 500Cr round trip.
     Low berth safety between these hubs is comparable to air traffic safety 
levels in the US and EU.  Of course, low berth safety in the more backward 
regions of the Imperium is similar to air traffic safety in our Third World. 
  Unless it is absolutely necessary, do not fly Sudan Air and don't freeze 
out with Utoland Carriers.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 00:27:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Jun 18 23:27:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo Entry: Variants (long)
Message-ID: <F224v5Bnb071vtJWYsD0001eb33@hotmail.com>

From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>

     "As promised, the Grote Clan Trader variants."


Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Drat, drat, DRAT!  I KNOW all that drivel had paragraph indents when I 
pasted into the Hotmail form!  WTF happened to them in transmission!??!
     Sorry for making your eyes bleed...


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 00:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Jun 18 23:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller20 (T20) Available for Pre-Order
In-Reply-To: <F224v5Bnb071vtJWYsD0001eb33@hotmail.com>
References: <F224v5Bnb071vtJWYsD0001eb33@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <200206190246510678.97B53D09@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

T20 is now available for pre-order!

http://www.TravellerRPG.com

The book itself has expanded from 320 pages to 448 pages (16 pages of=
 color), with a hardbound cover by Sci-Fi cover artist David Mattingly.

The list price for the book will be $44.95, but we have a special deal for=
 anyone who pre-orders.  Place your order now and save 20% off the cover=
 price (only $36.00), and get a free copy of the next issue of the=
 Traveller's Aide PDF series. If you already have a subscriptions, we will=
 add an extra issue to your total.

Traveller's Aide #2 will be released Monday (June 25) and we will email=
 your copy to you. T20 itself should be shipping mid to late July.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 02:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Jun 19 01:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What Have I Missed?
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEECCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>Well, we had a great orgy at BayCon in your name..

Where did you find those six women in the Droyne costumes?  That was
awesome.

>other than that, well, to be honest, I've been writing and deleting 90% of
the list unread.

This suggests to me that you mostly read what you yourself have posted to
the list -- or maybe I'm just projecting.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 02:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Wed Jun 19 01:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Burying the hatchet with the TNErs
References: <000001c216ab$226eca60$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>
Message-ID: <000201c21767$e8205aa0$e000a8c0@imogen>

Andrew Long wrote:
> Is that Silent Tower? I haven't received any mail from that
> list since late February...

I lurk on that list and its still active.  Last email
received was yesterday.  Try sending a query to
tne-rces-help@silent-tower.org



Regards PLST



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun 19 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs, and Fiefs (was: why does travel...)
In-Reply-To: <20020616232712.70371.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20619.010942.6C9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Speaking of "why does travel cost so much", I don't
> understand why Hydrogen ,in the Traveller Universe,in
> the far future costs 500 credits per ton! We're
> talking real money to refuel a scout ship! Is skimming
> a gas giant or sumping from an ocean such a big a deal
> that people would rather pay than bother? Or am I just
> missing something?

*Liquid* hydrogen s a bit of a pain to produce and store. Temperature
differences are logarithmic. That means that it's the *ratio* of two
temperatures (expressed in Kelvin or some other absolute temperate
scale) that matters.

So, the difference bwetween 300K room temp and  the 20K boiling point
of hydrogen is equivalent to the difference between room temp and 4500
K. 

Imagine trying to maintain something at room temp on a planet where
iron is a *gas*. That's the sort of problem you have keeping hydrogen
liquid.

Worse, even if you liquefy it and insulate it *perfectly*, it'll
*still* boil away, because there are two forms of the hydrogen
molecule, with slightly different energies. And the transition from the
high energy state to the low energy state releases enough heat to boil
the liquid.

So youi have to treat the liquid with a catalyst to convert all the
hydrogen to the low energy form *and* keep it from boiling away in the
process.

Handling hydrogen gass is a pain too, as it'll seep thru incredibly
tiny cracks because the molecules are so small. It'll also seep into
the crystal structure of many metals making them brittle.

All of these things can be handled. It just costs time and money.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 02:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Jun 19 01:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Minimum population for tech levels
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEEDCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
>
>It's a great joke, isn't it - in the Far Future, a time of drama and epic
>adventure, people basically devote their lives to loafing, drinking, and
the
>pursuit of nookie.

Le plus ca change, le plus ca reste le meme.

You know, we live in the Far Future with respect to people who were alive a
long time ago, and they would say the same thing about us -- and so would
the people of the Far Future to whom we are history.

The Harry Flashman stories are devoted to this concept.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 03:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed Jun 19 02:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 release
Message-ID: <015101c21774$7c7b5d60$46d693c3@martinjd>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Folks, we're there.

T20 is now well into the layout/print process, and should be on the =
stands in mid to late July. In the meantime, we've got a discounted =
preorder offer on the QLI website http://www.travellerrpg.com/ Preorders =
will receive a 20% discount on cover price, plus a free copy of =
Traveller's Aide #2 when it is published (June 25th).

We missed the  planned publication date by 9 months, but we did end up =
with a book 50% longer than intended. The final product is a humongous =
monster tome of 446 pages, containing everything needed to play =
Traveller using d20.We have three sourcebooks patrtway to completion and =
a Grand Adventure; these will appear over the next few months.There's =
also the Traveller's Aide series of PDF supplements. #3 is in final =
preparation, #4 and #5 will follow rapidly.=20

Well, that's the news. I need a lie down now....

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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Folks, we're there.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>T20 is now well into the layout/print =
process, and=20
should be on the stands in mid to late July. In the meantime, we've got =
a=20
discounted preorder offer on the QLI website </FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.travellerrpg.com/">http://www.travellerrpg.com/</A>&nb=
sp;Preorders=20
will receive a 20% discount on cover price, plus a free copy of =
Traveller's Aide=20
#2 when it is published (June 25th).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We missed the&nbsp; planned publication =
date by 9=20
months, but we did end up with a book 50% longer than intended. The =
final=20
product is a humongous monster tome of 446 pages, containing everything =
needed=20
to play Traveller using d20.We have three sourcebooks patrtway to =
completion and=20
a Grand Adventure; these will appear over the next few months.There's =
also the=20
Traveller's Aide series of PDF supplements. #3 is in final preparation, =
#4 and=20
#5 will follow rapidly. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Well, that's the news. I need a lie =
down=20
now....</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0141_01C2177B.E68CD240--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 03:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Jun 19 02:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] TL-9 American Heavy SDB - SENTRY Class
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020618211622.00969260@minn.net>
References: <001301c2172c$36cd0180$3a0f4518@gv.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020619042821.00963100@minn.net>

A ship from the First Interstellar War.

The following was created with High Guard Shipyard:

Ship: Edward Straker
Class: Boeing Sentry
Type: Heavy SDB
Architect: Leslie Bates
Tech Level: 9

USP
         SB-82068C2-700000-40004-0 MCr 1,044.838 800 Tons
Bat Bear                   2   1   Crew: 16
Bat                        2   1   TL: 9

Cargo: 13.000 Fuel: 128.000 EP: 64.000 Agility: 6
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 10.448   Cost in Quantity: MCr 835.870


Detailed Description

HULL
800.000 tons standard, 11,200.000 cubic meters, Cone Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 10 Engineers, Medic, 3 Gunners

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-8, 64.000 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3fib Computer

HARDPOINTS
8 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
4 Triple Missile Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-4), 4 Triple Beam
Laser Turrets organised into 2 Batteries (Factor-4)

DEFENCES
Armoured Hull (Factor-7)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
128.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 56 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
8.0 Staterooms, 13.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 1,055.286 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 10.448), MCr 835.870 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
112 Weeks Singly, 90 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
TL-9 American heavy system defense boat.
=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 03:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Wed Jun 19 02:51:02 2002
Subject: Penguin minions (was :Re: [TML] What Have I Missed?)
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020618155408.009e71d0@mindspring.com> <3D0FC759.2040000@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020619104515.B22704@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D1055F9.8070101@gmx.net>

Timothy Little wrote:

>Bruce Johnson wrote:
>  
>
>>Ye ghods Douglas!! How many mail aliases *do* you have?? Writing 90%
>>of the list...wow...:-P
>>    
>>
>
>He delegates to all those penguin minions of his ;)
>
>  
>
How does one sign up as a pengiuin minion? Is there a badge? a t-shirt? 
a snappy uniform with gold braid and flippers?

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 04:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Jun 19 03:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why does fule cost so much?
In-Reply-To: <3D0F5BB1.377905AC@mindspring.com>
References: <B932C723.5F73B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020619062509.00a3cb50@mail.buffnet.net>

If you guys want to have some minor fun with all of this???   ;)

In GURPS - there are rules regarding the radiation exposure of hulls that 
brave outer space.  The radiation belts around Jupiter rival those of what 
Earth experiences in orbit around the sun.  If you take into account the 
Damage Resistance of the ship's armor most GURPS TRAVELLER ships have - 
then anyone who does a dive into a gas giant may find themselves being 
inundated with harmful radiation that is getting past the armor of the 
ships.  Perhaps the real reason that traveller ships don't want to get the 
free hydrogen is because they keep being exposed to radiation to the extent 
that cancer and radiation damage is more than they want to 
experience.  Increase the armor ratings, or build double hulls with water 
between the hulls might make a difference...

              Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 05:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Jun 19 04:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1024343827.1051.ajackson@ping>
References: <B9338BA4.5F948%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020619071708.01fe4d60@192.168.0.1>

At 12:57 PM 6/17/2002 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Tod Glenn writes:
> > > I don't think we will ever have a society in which nobody has more than
> > > one or two children.
> > Unless mandated by the state, of course.
>Unless mandated by the state _and_ the state is incredibly effective at
>enforcing its will.

 From what I can tell, Communist China is doing a fair job of that.
Nice plot hook.  Find a player with a soft touch.
Land 'em on Mao's Paradise.  Have a woman pregnant with an illegal (under 
local law, she's had her limit) child contact that player.
She wants to be smuggled off planet (also illegal for "Members of the 
State" to leave without permission)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"[I will] totally dismantle every intelligence agency
in this country by piece, nail by nail, brick by
brick" -- Ron Dellums, D-Calif, 1993, after House
Democratic Caucus elected him chairman of the
House Armed Services Committee.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 06:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jun 19 05:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo Entry: Variants (long)
Message-ID: <20020619.075711.-422173.0.Knightsky@juno.com>


On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 06:26:19 +0000 "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:

>      Drat, drat, DRAT!  I KNOW all that drivel had paragraph indents 
> when I pasted into the Hotmail form!  WTF happened to them in 
> transmission!??!
>      Sorry for making your eyes bleed...

Actually, the post I received *did* have paragraph indents.  I guess it's
just a matter of how each person's email reader handles it...


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 06:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jun 19 05:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 release
Message-ID: <20020619.082249.-422173.1.Knightsky@juno.com>


On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:27:23 +0100 "MJ Dougherty"
<martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> 
> The final product is a humongous monster tome of 446 
> pages, containing everything needed to 
> play Traveller using d20.

Except for the D&D Player's Handbook, presumably?  ;-)


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 06:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed Jun 19 05:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 release
References: <20020619.082249.-422173.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <004a01c2178e$cb8856a0$4dea93c3@martinjd>

> > The final product is a humongous monster tome of 446
> > pages, containing everything needed to
> > play Traveller using d20.
>
> Except for the D&D Player's Handbook, presumably?  ;-)

Sorry, yes. That's a given with all D20 products, part of the liccense. I
forgot about it.

Though a vague familiarity with PHB will do.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 06:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Jun 19 05:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 release
In-Reply-To: <004a01c2178e$cb8856a0$4dea93c3@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D1124F1.31491.34BCA9@localhost>

On 19 Jun 2002 at 13:42, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> > > The final product is a humongous monster tome of 446
> > > pages, containing everything needed to
> > > play Traveller using d20.
> >
> > Except for the D&D Player's Handbook, presumably?  ;-)
> 
> Sorry, yes. That's a given with all D20 products, part of the liccense. I
> forgot about it.
> 
> Though a vague familiarity with PHB will do.

What bits do you need the PH for?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 06:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jun 19 05:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
Message-ID: <d.28863264.2a41d823@aol.com>

> > Lots of aliens and FTL travel are *really* cool, but becoming an
> > immortal hyperintelligent posthuman being is IMHO even better.

To satisfy my curiosity, what makes it so much more attractive? 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 07:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed Jun 19 06:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <m3660ge26e.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020619131337.72405.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> > 
> > As a parent of 4*, I can attest to this. 
> Sometimes I feel pulled in
> > several directions at once, but I wouldn't trade
> any of the 4 of
> > them.  I like kids (duh) and while I am not
> opposed to more, I do
> > already sense the difficulties of enjoying them
> all.  Especially
> > when we have a softball game and t-ball game at
> the same time.
> 
> There were four of us boys--acc. to my folks the
> first is hard, the
> second is harder but the third and fourth are
> easy--by then one has
> gotten used to having no free time.  Whether this is
> a good o a bad
> thing, I'm not so certain...

<grin> - I can attest to having no free time.  That's
why I read most of my email at work.  But for us, the
second was the hardest so far.  The first was a little
girl, and she would sleep in the car seat as well as
in the bed.  The second was a boy, and he hated the
car seat.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 07:27:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed Jun 19 06:27:06 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 release
References: <3D1124F1.31491.34BCA9@localhost>
Message-ID: <002001c21796$2c7e4080$b4e993c3@martinjd>

> >
> > Though a vague familiarity with PHB will do.
>
> What bits do you need the PH for?

Not for play, really. Just to understand the rules concepts of d20. We've
detailed all the skills and feats you can use in Travellr (including those
common with the PHB) but there are some things we can't explain (not allowed
under the license).

I've not played D&D of any sort for 15 years, but I can use T20 to run a
game.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 09:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Jun 19 08:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
In-Reply-To: <d.28863264.2a41d823@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020619074417.009ea6b0@mindspring.com>

At 08:50 AM 6/19/02 -0400, you wrote:
> > > Lots of aliens and FTL travel are *really* cool, but becoming an
> > > immortal hyperintelligent posthuman being is IMHO even better.
>
>To satisfy my curiosity, what makes it so much more attractive?

It's a fairly recent concept.  Hans Moravic and bush robots.  That, and it 
allows you to transsend the limitations of being a meat being.  In 
an  upcoming TH Space game, I'm playing the ship. I'm the ghost of a pilot 
who died in a nasty attack, and was uploaded.  I have a remote cybershell 
for interpersonal work, but I'm really excited about the challenge of 
playing a 100-meter long fusion torch spaceship.

(In my other upcoming game, I'm playing a 5th level fighter in a D&D3e 
game... ah, the classics!)


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

              __
             )o (--o
             """"===--(
            |::|:\             EXTERMINATE!
            |::|::\
            ====        


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 09:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Jun 19 08:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scout Filk (sort of)
In-Reply-To: <001301c2172c$36cd0180$3a0f4518@gv.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020619075028.009fae20@mindspring.com>

At 05:56 PM 6/18/02 -0700, you wrote:
>  Got the following in an e-mail, and thought it would make a great 
> unofficial scout oath.
>
>The Beer Prayer
>Our lager,
>Which art in barrels,
>Hallowed be thy drink.
>Thou will be drunk,
>At home as in the tavern.
>Give us this day our foamy head,
>And forgive us our spillages,
>As we forgive those who spill against us.
>Lead us not to incarceration,
>But deliver us from hangovers.
>For thine is the Ale, the Bitter and the Lager.
>Forever and ever,
>Barmen

Now this is going up in the Silly Era, with your permission.

Looking at the site with the lovely and talented wife, we really that 
having upgraded artwork would be nice.  Could someone with more aret skills 
than us please consider doing nicer versions of our "smiley-face sunbursts"?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 09:07:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Jun 19 08:07:13 2002
Subject: [TML] What Have I Missed?
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEECCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020619075319.009ed8f0@mindspring.com>

At 12:58 AM 6/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> >
> >Well, we had a great orgy at BayCon in your name..
>
>Where did you find those six women in the Droyne costumes?  That was
>awesome.

Glenn, those weren't costumes.  There's an angry oytrip that wants to talk 
to you.  What's Droyne for "age of consent?"

> >other than that, well, to be honest, I've been writing and deleting 90% of
>the list unread.
>
>This suggests to me that you mostly read what you yourself have posted to
>the list -- or maybe I'm just projecting.

The huge threads have been deleted, since I simply didn't have the time or 
energy to devot to them.  It's funy, the deeper I get into writing for GT, 
the less time I have for Traveller!


--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 09:09:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Jun 19 08:09:25 2002
Subject: Penguin minions (was :Re: [TML] What Have I Missed?)
In-Reply-To: <3D1055F9.8070101@gmx.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020618155408.009e71d0@mindspring.com>
 <3D0FC759.2040000@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020619104515.B22704@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020619075545.009f8a50@mindspring.com>

At 07:59 PM 6/19/02 +1000, you wrote:
>>He delegates to all those penguin minions of his ;)


>How does one sign up as a pengiuin minion? Is there a badge? a t-shirt? a 
>snappy uniform with gold braid and flippers?

You will be contacted.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 09:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Jun 19 08:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scout Filk (sort of)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3812@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C217A5.7DA58F40
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

That hung on the wall of stately DeGraff Manor ;)~ for quite awhile.  It's been down for a time, but I think it needs to get back up there :D
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne [mailto:ewart67@shaw.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 5:57 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Scout Filk (sort of)


 Got the following in an e-mail, and thought it would make a great unofficial scout oath.
 
The Beer Prayer 
Our lager, 
Which art in barrels, 
Hallowed be thy drink. 
Thou will be drunk, 
At home as in the tavern. 
Give us this day our foamy head, 
And forgive us our spillages, 
As we forgive those who spill against us. 
Lead us not to incarceration, 
But deliver us from hangovers. 
For thine is the Ale, the Bitter and the Lager. 
Forever and ever, 
Barmen 
 
 
Wayne
ewart67@shaw.ca <mailto:ewart67@shaw.ca> 
 
"Give a man fire, and he is warm for the night. Set a man on fire and he is warm for life." Terry Pratchett


------_=_NextPart_001_01C217A5.7DA58F40
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">


<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4616.200" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=342302415-19062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>That 
hung on the wall of stately DeGraff Manor ;)~ for quite awhile.&nbsp; It's been 
down for a time, but I think it needs to get back up there 
:D</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=342302415-19062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Jesse</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Wayne 
  [mailto:ewart67@shaw.ca]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, June 18, 2002 5:57 
  PM<BR><B>To:</B> tml@travellercentral.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TML] Scout Filk 
  (sort of)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;Got the following in an e-mail, and thought it would make a 
  great&nbsp;unofficial scout&nbsp;oath.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>The Beer Prayer </DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV>Our lager, </DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Which art in barrels, </DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Hallowed be thy drink. </DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Thou will be drunk, </DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>At home as in the tavern. </DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Give us this day our foamy head, </DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>And forgive us our spillages, </DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>As we forgive those who spill against us. </DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Lead us not to incarceration, </DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>But deliver us from hangovers. </DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>For thine is the Ale, the Bitter and the Lager. </DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Forever and ever, </DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Barmen </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Wayne<BR><A href="mailto:ewart67@shaw.ca">ewart67@shaw.ca</A></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>"Give a man fire, and he is warm for the night. Set a man on fire and he 
  is warm for life." Terry Pratchett</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C217A5.7DA58F40--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 09:28:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun 19 08:28:07 2002
Subject: Why does fule cost so much? (was Re: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs, and Fiefs (was: why does travel...))
In-Reply-To: <B9329B2E.5F6AD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20619.072818.9s9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Um, why is refined fuel costly.  I start with distilled water.  I
> produce hydrogen by electrolysis.  My likely contaminants are
> deuterium and tritium.  If these are a problem, refining is going to
> be *really* costly.  Much more that Cr500/ton.

At *our* TL they are a pain to seperate. Mostly because we hven't
*needed* to in large quantities.

Also, for LH2, you need to deal with a liquid at 20K and the problems
having a mix of orthohydrogen and parahydrogen cause. (See my other post).

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 09:30:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun 19 08:30:19 2002
Subject: Why does fule cost so much? (was Re: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs, and Fiefs (was: why does travel...))
In-Reply-To: <B932C417.5F72B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20619.073132.6g5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Why are you extracting hydrogen from hydrocarbons (cracking) if you
> have fusion power and water?

"Cracking" refersd to breaking down complex chemicals into simpler
ones, usually by thermal means. It is used in the petrochemical
industry to refer to such a process involving hydrocarbons, but it's
just as correct to refer to using high temps to "crack" water into
hydrogen and oxygen.

> Wouldn't electrolysis be much cheaper, cleaner and easier?

Not necessarily. If you've got continuous fusion available, cracking
whatever by heating it to a few thousand degrees as part of the cooling
cycle might be quite practical. and capable of procerssing higher
volumes than electrolysis (there are limits to how fast you can
electrolyze water, due to the limit on the current you can run thru it.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 09:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Wed Jun 19 08:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 release
References: <3D1124F1.31491.34BCA9@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D10A4F3.D915CCDB@attbi.com>


Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> On 19 Jun 2002 at 13:42, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>
> > > > The final product is a humongous monster tome of 446
> > > > pages, containing everything needed to
> > > > play Traveller using d20.
> > >
> > > Except for the D&D Player's Handbook, presumably?  ;-)
> >
> > Sorry, yes. That's a given with all D20 products, part of the liccense. I
> > forgot about it.
> >
> > Though a vague familiarity with PHB will do.
>
> What bits do you need the PH for?

Character generation, Stats....Levels... Etc..Etc..


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 10:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Jun 19 09:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020619071708.01fe4d60@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1024502875.5137.ajackson@ping>

Mark Urbin writes:
> At 12:57 PM 6/17/2002 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> >Tod Glenn writes:
> > > > I don't think we will ever have a society in which nobody has more
> > > > than one or two children.
> > > Unless mandated by the state, of course.
> >Unless mandated by the state _and_ the state is incredibly effective at
> >enforcing its will.
> 
>  From what I can tell, Communist China is doing a fair job of that.

Well, a society in which _most people_ have no more than one or two children is
much easier than one where _nobody_ has more.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 10:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Jun 19 09:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TL-9 American Heavy SDB - SENTRY Class
Message-ID: <3D10AC1A.C2CA59F4@mail.cswnet.com>

>Ship: Edward Straker

Would this be Colonel Straker from the old UFO tv series?
I liked that show.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 10:13:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Jun 19 09:13:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why does fule cost so much?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020619062509.00a3cb50@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1024503075.5566.ajackson@ping>

Hal writes:
> If you guys want to have some minor fun with all of this???   ;)
> 
> In GURPS - there are rules regarding the radiation exposure of hulls that 
> brave outer space.  The radiation belts around Jupiter rival those of what 
> Earth experiences in orbit around the sun.  If you take into account the 
> Damage Resistance of the ship's armor most GURPS TRAVELLER ships have - 
> then anyone who does a dive into a gas giant may find themselves being 
> inundated with harmful radiation that is getting past the armor of the 
> ships.

Well, actually, with the radiation resistance of standard hulls, anyone who
spends much time in space is going to absorb fairly unreasonable radiation
doses.  Best to assume some handwavium shielding (such as the radiation
shielding in GURPS) is available.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 10:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Jun 19 09:16:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Penguin minions
Message-ID: <3D10AD4B.7BA3CAA6@mail.cswnet.com>

>How does one sign up as a pengiuin minion? Is there a badge? a >t-shirt? a snappy uniform with gold braid and flippers?

Just stay where you are. A penguin humming sho-be-do-be-do will be with
you shortly. 

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
Nice penguin. Please don't shoot me. <<BANG>>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 10:20:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Jun 19 09:20:06 2002
Subject: Why does fule cost so much? (was Re: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs,
 and Fiefs (was: why does travel...))
In-Reply-To: <20619.073132.6g5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B935FD36.60575%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/19/02 8:31 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> Wouldn't electrolysis be much cheaper, cleaner and easier?
> 
> Not necessarily. If you've got continuous fusion available, cracking
> whatever by heating it to a few thousand degrees as part of the cooling
> cycle might be quite practical. and capable of procerssing higher
> volumes than electrolysis (there are limits to how fast you can
> electrolyze water, due to the limit on the current you can run thru it.


Can you be more specific on this process.  Obviously, you can raise the
temperature until you have protons and oxygen nuclei.  What method are you
going to use to separate the hydrogen out?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 10:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed Jun 19 09:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 release
References: <3D1124F1.31491.34BCA9@localhost> <3D10A4F3.D915CCDB@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <002001c217af$7e303780$d2d593c3@martinjd>

>
> Character generation, Stats....Levels... Etc..Etc..

Yup. Though once you understand how these things work, you only need the
stuff that's in the T20 rulebook to actually do it.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 10:35:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Wed Jun 19 09:35:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship Rodeo Entry: the Random Walk research ship
Message-ID: <F159VbyQ3XvQCylr0z500026e49@hotmail.com>

Here's a small, underfunded ship from a small, underfunded
university...a HG2 design, recreated using Andrew
Moffatt-Vallance's excellent High Guard Shipyard program.

Ship: Random Walk (ex-LRSV 1011)
Class: LRSV 772
Type: Scout Ship
Architect: Walt Smith
Tech Level: 11

USP
         EX-2622221-030000-10001-0 MCr 118.509 235 Tons
Bat Bear             2     2   2   Crew: 6
Bat                  2     2   2   TL: 11

Cargo: 24.4. Passengers: 4. Fuel: 51.7. EP: 4.7. Agility: 1.
Pulse Lasers. Craft: 1 x 20T Launch, 1 x 10T ATV.
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification.
10 Low Berths. 20T Lab Spaces.

Architects Fee: MCr 1.185   Cost in Quantity: MCr 94.807

Detailed Description

HULL
235 tons standard, 3,290 cubic meters, Flattened Sphere
Configuration.

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, Engineer, Medic, 2 Security Staff (act as Gunners).
Quarters are provided for up to 4 science specialists.

ENGINEERING
Jump-2, 2G Manuever, Power plant-2, 4.7 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/2 Computer

HARDPOINTS
2 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
2 Triple Mixed Turrets each with: 1 Pulse Laser (Factor-1),
1 Missile Rack (Factor-1), 1 Sandcaster (Factor-3).

CRAFT
1 20ton Launch, 1 10ton ATV

FUEL
51.7 Tons Fuel (2 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance).
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
10 Staterooms, 10 Low Berths, 24.4 Tons Cargo.

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
1 Laboratory (20tons).

COST
MCr 119.694 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 1.185),
MCr 94.807 in Quantity.

CONSTRUCTION TIME
62 Weeks Singly, 50 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
The LRSV 772 is a somewhat elderly design of a survey vessel,
intended to perform follow-up investigations of planetary surfaces.
A launch, ATV and integral lab spaces give the crew more tools than
a standard S-type scout ship, and the added personell allow science
specialists to accompany the jack-of-all trades scout crews to new
worlds.

The Random Walk (ex-LRSV 1011) is currently owned by the College of
Planetary Studies of Regina, a small university with ties to the IISS
and the Imperial Science Union.  The ship acts as the college's field
laboratory and mobile classroom, crewed by a combination of faculty
members, detatched-duty IISS personell and select students.  The
ship usually ranges many parsecs from Regina, and even crosses the
Imperial border on occasion.  New students and crewmen rotate on
and off the Random Walk via rendezvous with traders and passenger
liners, as the Random Walk herself hasn't seen her home port in
well over a year.

Any rumors that the Random Walk's activities are a cover for
IISS intelligence operations would be, of course, completely
unfounded.

Copyright 2002 Walter G. Smith.
Permission is granted to reproduce this ship design, provided
that copyright information is included.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 10:37:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Jun 19 09:37:18 2002
Subject: [TML] TL-9 American Heavy SDB - SENTRY Class
In-Reply-To: <3D10AC1A.C2CA59F4@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020619113323.00965180@minn.net>

At 11:06 AM 6/19/2002 -0500, Dan Roseberry wrote:
>>Ship: Edward Straker
>
>Would this be Colonel Straker from the old UFO tv series?
>I liked that show.

Yes.

A and E home video is offering the series on DVD.


Les
=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 10:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Wed Jun 19 09:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Another Rodeo entry:  The SUV
Message-ID: <3d10a7eb.27177869@post.demon.co.uk>

Naval architects!  Enjoy designing powerful warships, colossal
megafreighters and fast liners?  Don't want to waste time on petty
concerns such as the ship's boats?  The new Ship's Utility Vessel from
Storm Industries Naval Shipyards is the answer to your problem.

Specifying it couldn't be simpler.  Each SUV added to your design
requires 100 dtons of space, costs MCr 10 and masses 100 tons.  We
recommend including one for every 10,000 tons of displacement of the
parent vessel.  Easy.

Those figures _include_ a vehicle bay and launch facilities. (You will
need to provide life support and accommodation for the SUV's crew of
two, however).  The SUV then fulfils the role of lifeboat,
surface-orbit interface vessel, ship's gig, cargo lighter and - with a
minor modification - fuel shuttle.=20

If desired, our production facilities on Vincennes, Rhylanor, Glisten
and Colony Five can supply you with a fully prefabricated modular unit
containing an SUV with launch facilities - simply plug it into your
existing design.  Special discounts available for bulk purchase..
__________________________________________________

Design System:  GT, pencil and sheet of paper, pocket calculator ;-)

Ship's Utility Vessel (SUV)

95 ton Small Craft
(Requires 100-ton vehicle bay)

GTL 12 (TTL 15)

Cost: MCr 9.633 =20
(the MCr 10 quoted in the sales blurb above includes the cost of a
vehicle bay and an extra 3% profit mark-up for Storm Industries)

Standard capacity:
24 passengers in couches
2 passenger staterooms=20
(for long-term missions or high-ranking passengers)
48.5 dtons cargo capacity.
Low berths for 100 people.

95 ton streamlined hull
Armour, DR 100
Sealed

Cockpit and Systems Module
25 low berths (capacity 100)
2 passenger modules: 24 passengers
2 passenger staterooms
48.5 cargo modules
M-drive: 4 modules

Crew: 2 (pilot, low berth technician/engineer)

Mass: 99.53 tons empty*, 342.03 tons loaded
HP: 14,250 Size Modifier +8

* plus 0.5 tons for a vehicle bay =3D 100.03 tons

Performance: 4.0 G unloaded, 1.2 G loaded
Airspeed 1,777 mph
__________________________________________________

=46uel shuttle variant:
Replaces passenger couches by 2 fuel refining modules.
Repaces cargo with fuel tankage.
Cost: MCr 19.314
Mass: 100.65 tons empty, 163.7 tons loaded
Performance: 4.0 G unloaded, 2.4 G loaded

Capacity: 48.5 dtons fuel
Takes 3 hours to refine one full load of fuel.

__________________________________________________

Stephen

Permission granted for absolutely anyone to use this post in any way
they like, as long as my name is still associated with the design (and
it's legal, and doesn't breach the Far Futures or SJ Games terms of
fair use, etc etc).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 11:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Jun 19 10:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scout Filk (sort of)
In-Reply-To: <001301c2172c$36cd0180$3a0f4518@gv.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020619120302.00972a90@minn.net>

Once upon a time ago when I was a wee lad in high school, there was a
locally owned brewery (now unfortunately defunct) which made a big deal
about their brewing process called "kreusening". Needless to say, our
dungeon-master promptly invented a new minor diety named Kreusen. My player
character, being a devotee of Kreusen, named his own personal stronghold
Bierfestung.


Les


At 05:56 PM 6/18/2002 -0700, Wayne wrote:

> Got the following in an e-mail, and thought it would make a great
unofficial scout oath.
> 
>The Beer Prayer 
>  
> Our lager, 
>Which art in barrels, 
>Hallowed be thy drink. 
>Thou will be drunk, 
>At home as in the tavern. 
>Give us this day our foamy head, 
>And forgive us our spillages, 
>As we forgive those who spill against us. 
>Lead us not to incarceration, 
>But deliver us from hangovers. 
>For thine is the Ale, the Bitter and the Lager. 
>Forever and ever, 
>Barmen 
 
 
=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 11:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Jun 19 10:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why does fule cost so much?
In-Reply-To: <20020617144018.99175.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20619.091903.6v2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>     A lot of good and interesting points brought up on
> this subject. I wonder how much a dton of Hydrogen
> costs on present day earth. 
>     However, what if I were to set up a
> refining/refueling station in orbit around a popular
> gas giant,with a ships boat that goes back and forth
> to the gas giant and broadcast an advertisement to all
> incoming ships saying "come and get it"? I don't have
> to travel to the homeworld and I would be a boon to
> passenger liners and people in a hurry. I would just
> be a gas station floating in space, and I think my
> facilities would pay for themselves quickly. The
> stuff's free after all. The problem I see right now,
> though is the amount of space I would need on my
> spacestation to hold all the fuel to meet the needs of
> larger ships.

The problem is that if the ships jump to the 100 diameter limit of the
mainworld, they'd have to make *another* jump to get to the GG, or else
spend days travelling to it in normal space.

As an example, Jupiter is (as I recall) 5 AU out from the sun. So at
*closest approach*, that's a 4 AU trip. That's 600 million km. Light
takes 2000 seconds (33 min, 20 sec) to cover the distance. At 1g it
takes 5.7 days to cover that distance. At 6 g it takes 2.3 days.

When it's farthest away, it's 6 AU (plus some extra becauseyou have to
go *around* the sun). 

Even in Traveller, hopping between planets takes *time*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 11:22:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Jun 19 10:22:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Scout Filk (sort of)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020619120302.00972a90@minn.net>
Message-ID: <B9360B84.60637%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/19/02 10:03 AM, Leslie Bates at lesbates@minn.net wrote:

> Once upon a time ago when I was a wee lad in high school, there was a
> locally owned brewery (now unfortunately defunct) which made a big deal
> about their brewing process called "kreusening". Needless to say, our
> dungeon-master promptly invented a new minor diety named Kreusen. My player
> character, being a devotee of Kreusen, named his own personal stronghold
> Bierfestung.

Naturally, I'm betting that all of the Oregon TMLers can define kreusening
for you, this being the microbrew state.

It seems that every human culture manages to create its own beer.  One can
only marvel at the number of beers there are in the Imperium.  Personally, I
think I'll avoid Vilani beer, guessing at the ingredients.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 11:24:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Jun 19 10:24:21 2002
Subject: [TML] fueling ships
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEMKHNAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

How long does it take?

I have to admit total ignorance in modern terms how long it 
takes to fuel things that have large fuel needs.  Larsen or 
some navy boffin may know how long, say a conventionally 
powered destroyer or cruiser takes. AS a WAG, we should be 
talking in terms of hours to gas -- well H2 is a gas :) --
up even a far trader

In a similar vein I've been doing some thinking about wilderness
refueling.  How common is it in YTU?  Slamming a ship into 
the atmosphere of a gas giant, opening the doors to the outside,
gulping up many tonnes of gas while flying at transonic speeds,
all the while maneuvering in close proximity to a deep
gravity well strikes me as mayhaps a trifle on the risky side.
I'm of the opinion that a tender might do it, but save in the
case of the utmost emergency the main ship would never do it.

jml
_____________
my other computer runs BSD
and another, Mac OS 9, and 
another NT, and .....
you get the idea

jml
jmlotzn1@pacbell.net
_________________

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 11:28:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Jun 19 10:28:24 2002
Subject: Why does fule cost so much? (was Re: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs,and Fiefs (was: why does travel...))
Message-ID: <200206191726.IUP01068@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn asks
>Can you be more specific on this process.  Obviously, y=
ou =

>can raise the temperature until you have protons and oxygen =

>nuclei.  What method are you going to use to separate the =

>hydrogen out?
>

Steam reforming uses thermal energy to separate hyd=
rogen from =

the carbon components in methane and methanol, and involves =

the reaction of these fuels with steam on catalytic surfaces. =

The first step of the reaction decomposes the fuel into =

hydrogen and carbon monoxide. Then a "shift reaction" changes =

the carbon monoxide and water to carbon dioxide and hydrogen. =

These reactions occur at temperatures of 392=B0 F (200 =B0 C) or =

greater. =

________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Anot=
her journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 11:31:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Jun 19 10:31:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship Rodeo Entry: the Random Walk research ship
Message-ID: <200206191729.IUP01628@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Walt Smith" says
>...a HG2 design, recreated using Andrew
>Moffatt-Vallance's excellent High Guard Shipyard program.
>
My point exactly.  If there was a roleplaying game that was 
fully supported in all gearhead angles by an application, and 
there were Palm extensions that did game mechanics (and let 
you load and unload characters and designs to and from your 
PC), and all the other written parts of the game were also 
embedded in the application, and the task resolution and 
combat were also in the Palm, I would bend over backwards to 
pick that up.

Heck, I'd be willing to write it...
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 11:39:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Jun 19 10:39:14 2002
Subject: Why does fule cost so much? (was Re: [TML] NIMBYs, BANANAs,and Fiefs (was: why does travel...))
Message-ID: <200206191736.IUP02900@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"John T. Kwon" says
>Steam reforming uses thermal energy to separate hy=
drogen =

>from the carbon components in methane and methanol, and =

>involves the reaction of these fuels with steam on catalytic =

>surfaces. =

>The first step of the reaction decomposes the fuel into =

>hydrogen and carbon monoxide. Then a "shift reaction" =

>changes the carbon monoxide and water to carbon dioxide and =

>hydrogen. =

>These reactions occur at temperatures of 392=B0 F (200 =B0 C) or =

>greater. =


I forgot to mention -- IMTU a hydrogen refiner that uses =

methane as an input uses this method for extracting =

hydrogen.  If water is the input, then the method is =

electrolysis.  Someday IMTU I'll require that the purchaser =

specify which type of refiner they're putting in the ship -- =

if you want to be able to crack water AND methane, you'll =

have to buy both types.

Still, I'm wondering how to pre-treat the inp=
uts.  Water is =

rarely pure (it contains salts, minerals, and possibly =

organic material) in nature, and the atmosphere of a gas =

giant is bound to contain ammonia (gee, that's another type =

of refiner) and other gases that will get in the way.

I'll wave my ha=
nds and say there's a centrifugal flow gas =

separator just inside the intake duct of the fuel scoop....
___________=
_____
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey=


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 11:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Jun 19 10:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Yugobox FOUND!
References: <3D0FEAA8.3EAC5DE1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D10C2B2.8020203@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Roseberry wrote:
> I either I just found it or you've been working hard on it today Mr.
> Johnson.
> 
> http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/deckplans.html

Doh! I thought I'd put the link to that in the original mail...I was 
referring to the more prose writeup which is still not in my hands here, 
though mostly for no time to look for it last night.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 11:50:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Jun 19 10:50:14 2002
Subject: Why does fule cost so much? (was Re: [TML] NIMBYs,
 BANANAs,and Fiefs (was: why does travel...))
In-Reply-To: <200206191726.IUP01068@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9361219.6064E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/19/02 10:26 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

>=20
> Steam reforming uses thermal energy to separate hydrogen from
> the carbon components in methane and methanol, and involves
> the reaction of these fuels with steam on catalytic surfaces.
> The first step of the reaction decomposes the fuel into
> hydrogen and carbon monoxide. Then a "shift reaction" changes
> the carbon monoxide and water to carbon dioxide and hydrogen.
> These reactions occur at temperatures of 392=B0 F (200 =B0 C) or
> greater.=20

John, Leonard was talking about extraction of hydrogen from water, without
using electrolysis.  I'm familiar with the above process. (it's only been 1=
0
years since I worked as a chemist).

I was interested Leonard's methodology for extracting hydrogen from water
economically without using electrolysis.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 11:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Jun 19 10:55:02 2002
Subject: Why does fule cost so much? (was Re: [TML] NIMBYs,
 BANANAs,and Fiefs (was: why does travel...))
In-Reply-To: <200206191736.IUP02900@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9361346.60661%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/19/02 10:36 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Still, I'm wondering how to pre-treat the inputs.  Water is
> rarely pure (it contains salts, minerals, and possibly
> organic material) in nature, and the atmosphere of a gas
> giant is bound to contain ammonia (gee, that's another type
> of refiner) and other gases that will get in the way.

Water's easy.  Just use vacuum distillation or osmosis (hey, it works for
submarines, right?)
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 12:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Jun 19 11:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Another goddamned canon question and ship submission
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020619120302.00972a90@minn.net>
References: <001301c2172c$36cd0180$3a0f4518@gv.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020619130151.00973580@minn.net>

Okay, what was the population of Terra in 2100?

I expect the answer to impact on the size of the various national squadrons.

And another ship submission, permission is granted to post this ship as
well as the SENTRY and GABRIEL classes previously posted on TML:


Ship: Curtis LeMay
Class: Boeing Starfortress
Type: Cruiser
Architect: Leslie Bates
Tech Level: 9

USP
         CA-D1166C2-200000-40607-0 MCr 3,743.505 4 KTons
Bat Bear                   5 1 2   Crew: 61
Bat                        5 1 2   TL: 9

Cargo: 34.000 Fuel: 1,280.000 EP: 240.000 Agility: 3 Marines: 12
Craft: 2 x 50T Cutter
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/3fib Computer

Architects Fee: MCr 37.435   Cost in Quantity: MCr 2,994.804


Detailed Description

HULL
4,000.000 tons standard, 56,000.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration

CREW
13 Officers, 36 Ratings, 12 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-1, 6G Manuever, Power plant-6, 240.000 EP, Agility 3

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3fib Computer
1 Model/3fib Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
3 100-ton bays, 10 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
1 100-ton Particle Accelerator Bay (Factor-6), 2 100-ton Missile Bays
(Factor-7), 10 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organised into 5 Batteries (Factor-4)

DEFENCES
Armoured Hull (Factor-2)

CRAFT
2 50.000 ton Cutters (Crew of 0, Cost of MCr 0.000)

FUEL
1,280.000 Tons Fuel (2 parsecs jump and 56 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
34.0 Staterooms, 34.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 3,780.940 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 37.435), MCr 2,994.804
in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
144 Weeks Singly, 115 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
TL-9 American Cruiser in the First Interstellar War.

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 12:05:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Jun 19 11:05:45 2002
Subject: Why does fule cost so much? (was Re: [TML] NIMBYs,BANANAs,and Fiefs (was: why does travel...))
In-Reply-To: <B9361346.60661%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1024509851.495.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> 
> Water's easy.  Just use vacuum distillation or osmosis (hey, it works for
> submarines, right?)

All of them are easy; just cool the hydrogen slowly enough that you can let the
contaminants condense out.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 12:10:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Jun 19 11:10:49 2002
Subject: Why does fule cost so much? (was Re: [TML] NIMBYs,BANANAs,and Fiefs (was: why does travel...))
Message-ID: <200206191809.IUP09449@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>I was interested Leonard's methodology for extracting =

>hydrogen from water economically without using electrolysis.
>
The sm=
allest amount of electricity necessary to electrolyze =

one mole of water is 65.3 Watt-hours (at 77=B0 F; 25 degrees =

C). Producing one cubit foot of hydrogen requires 0.14 =

kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electricity (or 4.8 kWh per cubic =

meter). =


Steam electrolysis is a variation of the conventional =

electrolysis process. Some of the energy needed to split the =

water is added as heat instead of electricity, making the =

process more efficient than conventional electrolysis. At =

2,500 degrees Celsius water decomposes into hydrogen and =

oxygen. This heat could be provided by a solar energy =

concentrating device to supply the heat. The problem here is =

to prevent the hydrogen and oxygen from recombining at the =

high temperatures used in the process.

I realize that steam electroly=
sis is still electrolysis.  =

I've never been clear on how they prevent the recombination.
__________=
______
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journe=
y

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 12:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Wed Jun 19 11:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Unboring Ship Roundup Entry
Message-ID: <sd10968a.071@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

 And now, in the "I can't believe you actually designed this..."
category:

(Thanks to AMV and HGS v.1.13)

Ship: Lucky Buck
Class: Lucky Buck
Type: Mining Processor
Architect: Jeffrey Greenly
Tech Level: 15

USP
         MV-K8114F3-390000-99000-0 MCr 3,072.440 10 KTons
Bat Bear             1     11      Crew: 178
Bat                  1     11      TL: 15

Cargo: 3,560.000 Fuel: 2,200.000 EP: 400.000 Agility: 0 Shipboard
Security Detail: 10 Marines: 10
Craft: 2 x 20T Launch, Type 1, 4 x 40T Ore Transports
Fuel Treatment: On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 29.204   Cost in Quantity: MCr 2,488.352


Detailed Description

HULL
10,000.000 tons standard, 140,000.000 cubic meters, Planetoid
Configuration

CREW
12 Officers, 156 Ratings, 10 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-1, 1G Manuever, Power plant-4, 400.000 EP, Agility 0

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/6fib Computer

HARDPOINTS
90 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
50 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-9), 20
Dual Fusion Gun Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-9)

DEFENCES
20 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-9),
Armoured Hull (Factor-3)

CRAFT
2 20.000 ton Launch, Type 1s (Crew of 2, Cost of MCr 34.000), 4 40.000
ton Ore Transports (Crew of 3, Cost of MCr 21.000)

FUEL
2,200.000 Tons Fuel (1 parsecs jump and 56 days endurance, plus 400.000
tons of additional fuel)
No Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
92.0 Staterooms, 75 Low Berths, 3,560.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
2 Smelter, Centrifugals (40.000 tons, Crew 2, 50.000 Energy Points,
Cost MCr 25.000), 4 Mobile Crane/Draglines (10.000 tons, Crew 1, 12.000
Energy Points, Cost MCr 2.250, requires 2 Hardpoints), 1 Forming Plant
(35.000 tons, Crew 0, 3.000 Energy Points, Cost MCr 34.000), 2 Seeker
Docking/Maint. Bays (120.000 tons, Crew 2, 5.000 Energy Points, Cost MCr
39.670, requires 1 Hardpoint), 1 Lounge/Rec Area (22.500 tons, Crew 0,
Cost MCr 3.000)

COST
MCr 2,949.644 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 29.204), MCr
2,336.352 in Quantity, plus MCr 152.000 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
160 Weeks Singly, 128 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
Lucky Buck is a commercial mining support ship. With on-board smelters,

forming facilities, docking bays and fueling facilities for Seekers, 2

loading/dragline systems that can move to any point on the ship's
asteroidal 
hull, cargo bays, recreational facilities, and a contingent of small
craft for 
operational support, Lucky Buck can support operations in a belt for
several 
months between off-loading.


just as a RL aside, I worked aboard a salmon processing ship called the
Lucky Buck in Alaska, mostly near Ketchikan. She was Russian-built and
as ugly, nasty, slab-sided, roll-happy, unweatherly, and unforgiving a
bitch as you'd ever care to see, and I am lucky I survived the
experience. She sank near Seattle when some drunken fisherman plowed his
trawler into the Buck starboard side aft. Anyway, that's how I imagine
this Lucky Buck; a smelly, dank, rotten place to live and work, with hot
racks, no booze, and no leave for 4 months straight!

Jeff

Permission is granted for anyone to use, post, delete, fold, spindle or
mutilate this design. You don't even have to put my name on it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 13:26:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jun 19 12:26:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Another goddamned canon question
Message-ID: <7d.28f95e55.2a42343f@aol.com>

>Okay, what was the population of Terra in 2100?

Uh. BCE, AD, ZS, ZC, or 3I dating?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 13:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Jun 19 12:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scout Filk (sort of)
In-Reply-To: <B9360B84.60637%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B9360B84.60637%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3adpruk2r.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> Naturally, I'm betting that all of the Oregon TMLers can define
> kreusening for you, this being the microbrew state.

We Coloradans are only slightly behind...

Krusening is the process of priming one's beer with a measured amount
of a newly-fermenting beer, rather than with added wort, malt extract
or sugar.  It has the advantage over sugar of containg malt; over malt
extract of being fresh & containing hops; over wort of containing
fresh little yeasts.

It has the disadvantage that one must have a good feel for the amount
of fermentables in one's beer.  But most good brewers have that, else
they'd not be good.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another,
'What!  You too?  I thought I was the only one!'
                                   --C.S. Lewis

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 13:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Jun 19 12:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Another goddamned canon question
In-Reply-To: <7d.28f95e55.2a42343f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020619145524.0096fa00@minn.net>

At 03:23 PM 6/19/2002 EDT, you wrote:
>
>>Okay, what was the population of Terra in 2100?
>
>Uh. BCE, AD, ZS, ZC, or 3I dating?

Gregorian.

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 14:14:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Wed Jun 19 13:14:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Scout Filk (sort of)
References: <20020619181623.20C6F27A01@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D10E4E8.A94C9509@ameritech.net>


> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 12:03:02 -0500
> From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>

<snip>

> Bierfestung.

Coffin stand fortress?

How much extra did he have to pay the men at arms to defend it?

:)

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 15:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Jun 19 14:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] WIND class scout.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020619145524.0096fa00@minn.net>
References: <7d.28f95e55.2a42343f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020619160851.00973330@minn.net>

Another HGS design, this is too easy.

Permission to post on websites granted:


Ship: Kamakaze
Class: Mitsubishi Wind 
Type: Scout
Architect: Leslie Bates
Tech Level: 9

USP
         SF-2116721-000000-30002-0 MCr 200.238 200 Tons
Bat Bear                   1   1   Crew: 7
Bat                        1   1   TL: 9

Cargo: 1 Fuel: 68 EP: 14 Agility: 5
Craft: 1 x 4T Air/Raft
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 2.002   Cost in Quantity: MCr 160.190


Detailed Description

HULL:		200 tons standard, 2,800 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration
CREW:		Pilot, 3 Engineers, Medic, 2 Gunners
ENGINEERING:	Jump-1, 6G Manuever, Power plant-7, 14 EP, Agility 5
AVIONICS:	Bridge, Model/2 Computer
ARMAMENT:	1 Triple Missile Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-2), 1
Triple Beam Laser Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-3)
DEFENCES:	None
CRAFT:		1x4 ton Air/Raft 
FUEL:		68 Tons Fuel (2 parsecs jump and 56 days endurance) On Board Fuel
Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant
MISCELLANEOUS:	3.5 Staterooms, 1 Ton Cargo
COST:		MCr 202.240 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 2.002), MCr 160.190
in Quantity
CONST. TIME:	57 Weeks Singly, 46 Weeks in Quantity
COMMENTS:	TL-9 Japanese scout.


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 15:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jun 19 14:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
In-Reply-To: <20020619153305.AB91D27BC1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17Kmpx-0002tK-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> > > Lots of aliens and FTL travel are *really* cool, but becoming an
> > > immortal hyperintelligent posthuman being is IMHO even better.
> 
> To satisfy my curiosity, what makes it so much more attractive? 

Here we have (IMHO) the difference between the sort of future that 
is fun to game in and the sort of future would be fun to live in.  I love 
the TU, it's a *wonderful* game setting that I've played in for many 
dozens of hours.  

However, I'm hoping (and expecting) that our future looks an awful 
lot more like GURPS Transhuman Space, because I *really* like 
the idea of being an immortal,  hyperintelligent posthuman being.  
What not to like about living thousands of years, being able to read 
and fully understand a 500 page novel in half an hour, do tensor 
calculus in your head, and *never* forget *anything*.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 15:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Wed Jun 19 14:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
In-Reply-To: <E17Kmpx-0002tK-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206191424000.28965-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> However, I'm hoping (and expecting) that our future looks an awful 
> lot more like GURPS Transhuman Space, because I *really* like 
> the idea of being an immortal,  hyperintelligent posthuman being.  
> What not to like about living thousands of years, being able to read 
> and fully understand a 500 page novel in half an hour, do tensor 
> calculus in your head,

What he said ............ :)

>  and *never* forget *anything*.

Although I think the ability to forget things one wants to forget would
also be handy.  There are experiences I have had that I really don't need
to remember in detail, knowing that I had them is more than enough.

And I really do not want my sex drive turned off as some versions of
immortality seem to do.  Smoothed out a bit around the edges would be OK.

Kiri 

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93!  Thou Art God tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 15:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Jun 19 14:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206191424000.28965-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020619213616.2BFE827990@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/19/02 at 02:26 PM,  Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> said:

>On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

>> However, I'm hoping (and expecting) that our future looks an awful 
>> lot more like GURPS Transhuman Space, because I *really* like 
>> the idea of being an immortal,  hyperintelligent posthuman being.  
>> What not to like about living thousands of years, being able to read 
>> and fully understand a 500 page novel in half an hour, do tensor 
>> calculus in your head,

>What he said ............ :)

>>  and *never* forget *anything*.

>Although I think the ability to forget things one wants to forget
>would also be handy.  There are experiences I have had that I really
>don't need to remember in detail, knowing that I had them is more
>than enough.

I think selective forgetting would almost be a prerequsite for being
an immortal, or even a very long lived mortal.  Slow devouring and
processing of that 500 page novel is a pleasure, not something you
need to do in half and hour, watching and enjoying a movie like it was
the first time, every time, is a pleasure. If you never forget
anything, eventually nothing is new or novel anymore...and that would
be dreary.

>And I really do not want my sex drive turned off as some versions of
>immortality seem to do.  Smoothed out a bit around the edges would be
>OK.

That could be another case for selective forgetting. <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 15:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Jun 19 14:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why does fule cost so much?
In-Reply-To: <20619.091903.6v2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020617144018.99175.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> <20619.091903.6v2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020620074426.A25012@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> The problem is that if the ships jump to the 100 diameter limit of
> the mainworld, they'd have to make *another* jump to get to the GG,
> or else spend days travelling to it in normal space.

Yes, I had the same thought.  For maximum efficiency for the expensive
starships, I'd expect many starports to be situated outside the local
100D limit, or perhaps only just inside the limit.  Unrefined fuel
would be gathered from wherever (very cheaply since it doesn't require
cryogenic tanks or jump drives) and refined at or near the starports.
Shipping refined fuel even insystem is expensive, due to the high cost
of cryogenic LH2 tanks.

This is very decidedly non-canon, but it seems to me that it offloads
nearly all the insystem travel time and maneuvering capability to the
right sort of ships -- inexpensive non-jump ships, rather than
requiring extremely expensive jump-capable ships to do all their own
maneuvering.


To me, putting the starports on the ground or in low orbit and needing
maneuvering thrusters to get there seems somewhat akin to building
ocean ports 100 kilometres inland and putting wheels on all the ships.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 15:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jun 19 14:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Scout Filk (sort of)
In-Reply-To: <20020619181620.B1575279E3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17KnNi-0004VK-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> on 6/19/02 10:03 AM, Leslie Bates at lesbates@minn.net wrote:
> 
> > Once upon a time ago when I was a wee lad in high school, there was
> > a locally owned brewery (now unfortunately defunct) which made a big
> > deal about their brewing process called "kreusening". Needless to
> > say, our dungeon-master promptly invented a new minor diety named
> > Kreusen. My player character, being a devotee of Kreusen, named his
> > own personal stronghold Bierfestung.
> 
> Naturally, I'm betting that all of the Oregon TMLers can define
> kreusening for you, this being the microbrew state.
> 
> It seems that every human culture manages to create its own beer.  One
> can only marvel at the number of beers there are in the Imperium. 
> Personally, I think I'll avoid Vilani beer, guessing at the
> ingredients.

Not to mention Vargr beer.  I've known several large dogs that 
enjoyed beer, but given what I've also seen dogs like to eat, I don't 
even want to consider what might be in some Vargr brews (mmm, 
chunky....)

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 15:55:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jun 19 14:55:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <20020619181620.B1575279E3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17KnNk-0004VK-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:

> Mark Urbin writes:
> > At 12:57 PM 6/17/2002 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > >Tod Glenn writes:
> > > > > I don't think we will ever have a society in which nobody has
> > > > > more than one or two children.
> > > > Unless mandated by the state, of course.
> > >Unless mandated by the state _and_ the state is incredibly
> > >effective at enforcing its will.
> > 
> >  From what I can tell, Communist China is doing a fair job of that.
> 
> Well, a society in which _most people_ have no more than one or two
> children is much easier than one where _nobody_ has more.

Very true, and in the case of China what they have done will most 
certainly reduce their population, both because they have 
significantly reduced average family size, and because the rate of 
female infanticide is high enough that the sex ratios in much of 
rural China are now really skewed.  I'm honestly fascinated by what 
the social dynamics there will be like in a decade or so, when a 
generation of rural children where men significantly outnumber 
women grow up.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 16:33:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed Jun 19 15:33:40 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 release
Message-ID: <memo.394528@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <015101c21774$7c7b5d60$46d693c3@martinjd>
That's all good news.

Well done to all concerned!

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 16:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Jun 19 15:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
Message-ID: <F183ZbLAX3cf3ednHM30000005d@hotmail.com>

From: sneadj@mindspring.com

     "However, I'm hoping (and expecting) that our future looks an awful
lot more like GURPS Transhuman Space, because I *really* like the idea of 
being an immortal,  hyperintelligent posthuman being."


Mr. Snead,

     Oddly enough, I found the G:Transhuman Space book both frightening and 
unsettling.  Sure, there were certain gimmicks I would personally desire, 
but the thought of genetically designed, creche raised, single purpose, 
bioroid slaves (for that's what they are, no more, no less) left me with a 
very queasy feeling.
     Then again, I'm just an old fuddy duddy.

     "What's not to like about living thousands of years,..."

     Granted.

     "...being able to read and fully understand a 500 page novel in half an 
hour,..."

     Literature is meant to be savored not hoovered.

     "...do tensor calculus in your head,..."

     Granted.

     "...and *never* forget *anything*."

     Now THAT sounds like hell on Earth.  Without faulty memories and the 
passage of time, how can there be forgiveness?  Or personal peace?  If you 
remember every faux pas, every slight, every bad thing that ever happened to 
you both perfectly and accurately, you will go mad.
     I'm reminded of a line in one of H. Beam Piper's books.  A local is 
watching Federation contragrav lorries flit about, automatic weapons fire, 
huge globular starships lift to orbit, along with a 1001 other wonders and 
remarks; "I'm glad I am an old man, so I will not live to see how much the 
world will change."


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 16:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Jun 19 15:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
Message-ID: <F656KZmcK8r6beUzmRf00026289@hotmail.com>

From: sneadj@mindspring.com

     "I'm honestly fascinated by what the social dynamics there will be like 
in a decade or so, when a generation of rural children where men 
significantly outnumber women grow up."


Mr. Snead,

     It's already begun.
     Internal Chinese commentators identified the "Little Emperor" syndrome 
years ago; a single male child as the focal point of his entire family's 
efforts and aspirations.
     There has also been a marked increase in female slavery, from both 
internal and external sources.  Vietnam has lodged many protests about their 
female citizens being lured across the border with the promise of jobs, only 
to find themselves as guarded, slave, brides in some rural Chinese 
community.  Rural Chinese families have also begun kidnapping females from 
urban centers.  The decades long famine in North Korea has increased the 
"supply" of available females in the northern parts of China.  Along the 
Yalu, border guards turn away, capture, or imprison fathers and sons fleeing 
across the North Korean border, but mothers and daughters are passed along 
for tidy cash sums.
     Things should only get worse, interesting times indeed!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 16:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Jun 19 15:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 release
In-Reply-To: <3D10A4F3.D915CCDB@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <3D11B3B0.19378.47B11B@localhost>

On 19 Jun 2002 at 8:36, Evyn MacDude wrote:

> Character generation, Stats....Levels... Etc..Etc..

Ah. The stuff that a D&D3/d20 player of any consequence will have 
memorised already.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 17:06:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Jun 19 16:06:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
References: <F183ZbLAX3cf3ednHM30000005d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D110E1B.8080008@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>     "...being able to read and fully understand a 500 page novel in half 
> an hour,..."
> 
>     Literature is meant to be savored not hoovered.

Something that always made me chuckle when I saw the Evelyn Wood Speed 
Reading ads showing people reading War and Peace in a half hour...

Make that read and fully understand 500 pages of 'The Journal of 
Biological Chemistry' in half an hour, now we're getting somewhere...

>     "...do tensor calculus in your head,..."
> 
>     Granted.

Why? If you're an engineer, you're going to check your figures on paper 
  anyway (you'll get real antsy if you can't, it's been drilled and 
drilled into you), and if you're doing it off the cuff, you're not 
bothering with calculations, you'll just use the 'That looks 
/long/strong/heavy/light enough to me!' process, and simply add more 
duct tape as needed...

Wanting to do complex calculations in the head always struck me as like 
the teachers who objected to us using calculators, by intoning 'What if 
you were stuck on a desert island without one, then?'

Somehow my reply 'Then I'd care *less* who got to Chicago first, Sam on 
the east-bound train or Edward on the west-bound one...!' got me branded 
a trouble-maker...

> 
>     "...and *never* forget *anything*."
> 
>     Now THAT sounds like hell on Earth.  Without faulty memories and the 
> passage of time, how can there be forgiveness?  Or personal peace?  If 
> you remember every faux pas, every slight, every bad thing that ever 
> happened to you both perfectly and accurately, you will go mad.

Well said.

Besides, a very wise professor of mine once told our class that it is 
far easier to remember where to look up specific facts than to remember 
specific facts themselves...which I have expanded, in modern days, to 
'He who has Google needs not possess a functional memory!' :->

Which is a damned good thing for someone like myself with a terminal ( 
and probably congenital, but I can't remember ;-) case of CRS.

A truly advanced technological society will afford me a small device 
that can whisper people's names in my ear, remind me of appointments, 
(and call the appointees when I'm running late), provide me with the 
name of that novel that's on the tip of my tongue, an obscure fact I 
suddenly need to settle a bet at the Club, the hours of a restaurant I 
have a sudden hankering for, or any of a million other things a 
preturnaturally knowlegable and infinitely obsessive personal secretary 
will provide oneself, without the messy problem of finding and keeping a 
human one.

While nearly all of this is possible today in one form or another, it is 
crude and requires far too much effort on my part.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 17:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Jun 19 16:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <E17KnNk-0004VK-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
References: <E17KnNk-0004VK-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3wusuu9yi.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
> 
> I'm honestly fascinated by what the social dynamics there will be
> like in a decade or so, when a generation of rural children where
> men significantly outnumber women grow up.

Take a look at the history of the Wild West sometime.  It ought to be
something like that.  A lot of young men and not much else.  Lots of
violence and unspent aggression.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I owe the government $3400 in taxes.  So I sent them two hammers and a
toilet seat.                                         --Michael McShane

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 18:02:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Jun 19 17:02:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
Message-ID: <F74HoRR0mO8QTd8Di3e000264f0@hotmail.com>

From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

     "Why? If you're an engineer, you're going to check your figures on
paper anyway (you'll get real antsy if you can't, it's been drilled
>and drilled into you),..."


Mr. Johnson,

     Very true.  I wonder if a tensor calculus implant would do away with 
that custom.  How many people can still use a slip stick?

     "...you'll just use the 'That looks/long/strong/heavy/light enough to 
me!' process, and simply add more duct tape as needed..."

     I see you have worked as an engineer.  ;)

     "Somehow my reply 'Then I'd care *less* who got to Chicago first, Sam 
on the east-bound train or Edward on the west-bound one...!' got me branded 
a trouble-maker..."

     For me it was twigging my English teachers about how they dismembered 
literature.  You know they drill; "The author says this, but really means 
that", "The parsnip is a Christ figure", and all that rubbish.  As if 
authors sit down at their typewriter with a stack of 3x5 cards listing all 
the allusions, symbols, and whatnot they're going to stuff into their book.
     Writers write, english teachers deconstruct, and students learn to
loathe reading.

     "Besides, a very wise professor of mine once told our class that it is 
far easier to remember where to look up specific facts than to
remember specific facts themselves..."

     He was a very wise man.  I much rather prefer to hear, "I don't know, 
but I know where to find it" over "It's this way, trust me".

     "A truly advanced technological society will afford me a small device 
that can whisper people's names in my ear, remind me of
appointments, (and call the appointees when I'm running late), provide me 
with the name of that novel that's on the tip of my tongue, an obscure fact 
I suddenly need to settle a bet at the Club, the hours of a restaurant I 
have a sudden hankering for, or any of a million other things a 
preturnaturally knowlegable and infinitely obsessive personal secretary will 
provide oneself, without the messy problem of finding and keeping a human 
one."

     A pocket major domo!  I want one of those!  They have in Transhuman 
Space, but if they come with genetic slavery, I'll pass.

     "While nearly all of this is possible today in one form or another, it 
is crude and requires far too much effort on my part."

     True.  If the technology isn't seen as "easy", it will not be used.  Of 
course, different generations have different ideas as to what "easy" actual 
means!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 18:09:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Jun 19 17:09:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
Message-ID: <F12NAELA86oxd8BTYC10000001d@hotmail.com>

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

      "Take a look at the history of the Wild West sometime.  It ought to be 
something like that.  A lot of young men and not much else.  Lots of 
violence and unspent aggression."


Mr. Uhl,

     Interesting analogy, sir.  Complete with bride trains and ships you 
think?
     IIRC, there's a magazine sold in the Lower 48 featuring single Alaskan 
men looking for wives.  And then there's that nonsense on Fox.
     If we don't solve the female spacesuit plumbing problem soon, we may 
see the same thing as we settle Luna and the Belt.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S. Urine collection for males involves something like a condom, urine 
collection for females involves a catheter.  (ouch)

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Jun 19 17:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <F12NAELA86oxd8BTYC10000001d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9366D55.60798%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/19/02 5:06 PM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:

> 
> P.S. Urine collection for males involves something like a condom, urine
> collection for females involves a catheter.  (ouch)

I seem to recall reading about the Army's work at developing technology to
make field urination easier for women.  Some interesting attachments were
developed as I recall.  Don't know how well they worked.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 18:21:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Jun 19 17:21:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <E17KnNk-0004VK-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B9366DD5.60799%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/20/02 2:52 AM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Very true, and in the case of China what they have done will most
> certainly reduce their population, both because they have
> significantly reduced average family size, and because the rate of
> female infanticide is high enough that the sex ratios in much of
> rural China are now really skewed.  I'm honestly fascinated by what
> the social dynamics there will be like in a decade or so, when a
> generation of rural children where men significantly outnumber
> women grow up.

Isn't this also happening in India, that is, using ultrasound and other
technologies to preferentially select for males?  Going to make dating
interesting in about 15 years.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 18:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Jun 19 17:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
Message-ID: <F66OTfx7oELpAFobBrz00020d56@hotmail.com>

From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

     "I seem to recall reading about the Army's work at developing 
technology to make field urination easier for women.  Some interesting 
attachments were developed as I recall.  Don't know how well they worked."


Mr. Glenn,

     Well, I'm glad that some sort of work is being done.  Having over half 
our population effectively handicapped because of the way they void isn't a 
good thing.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 18:46:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Wed Jun 19 17:46:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <F66OTfx7oELpAFobBrz00020d56@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206191742370.5940-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> 
>      "I seem to recall reading about the Army's work at developing 
> technology to make field urination easier for women.  Some interesting 
> attachments were developed as I recall.  Don't know how well they worked."
> 
> 
> Mr. Glenn,
> 
>      Well, I'm glad that some sort of work is being done.  Having over half 
> our population effectively handicapped because of the way they void isn't a 
> good thing.
> 
huh, I have at least one ex who thinks my gender is handicapped simply
because most of us don't want to DISCUSS elimination...

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 19:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Wed Jun 19 18:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 release
In-Reply-To: <memo.394528@cix.compulink.co.uk>
References: <memo.394528@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200206192112350325.9BA98FE8@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 6/19/2002 at 11:30 PM mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:

>In-Reply-To: <015101c21774$7c7b5d60$46d693c3@martinjd>
>That's all good news.
>
>Well done to all concerned!
>
>Hugs and kisses,
>
>Mexal.

Thanks!

BTW, those of you who did a review for us of TA1 can use their credit=
 towards the purchase of T20 or anything else available from our online=
 store. Just drop me a line offlist (grip@RPGRealms.com) and let me know=
 what you want!

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 19:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Jun 19 18:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SKYBOLT System Defense Boat
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020619160851.00973330@minn.net>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020619145524.0096fa00@minn.net>
 <7d.28f95e55.2a42343f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020619200821.00967100@minn.net>

I did a rough draft with HGS and then fine tuned the craft with pencil,
paper, and pocket calculator.

Permission is granted for posting on websites:

Ship: Paladin
Class: Northrup-Grumman Skybolt
Type: System Defense Boat
Architect: Leslie Bates
Tech Level: 9

SB-9-400 Paladin  SB-41067C2-800000-30003-0 MCr 520.738 400 Tons
     Batteries Bearing              2   1   Crew: 11
     Batteries                      2   1   TL: 9
Cargo: 6. Fuel: 62 EP: 31 Agility: 6
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Detailed Description

HULL:          	400 tons standard, 5,600 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge
Configuration
CREW:          	Pilot, Navigator, 5 Engineers, Medic, 3 Gunners
ENGINEERING:   	Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-7, 31 EP, Agility 6
AVIONICS       	Bridge, Model/3fib Computer
HARDPOINTS     	4 Hardpoints
ARMAMENT       	2 Triple Missile Turrets organised into 1 Battery
(Factor-3), 2 Triple Beam Laser 			Turrets organised into 2 Batteries
(Factor-3)
DEFENCES       	Armoured Hull (Factor-8)
FUEL           	62 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 56 days endurance) On
Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel 			Purification Plant
MISCELLANEOUS  	6 Staterooms, 6 Tons Cargo
COST           	MCr 520.738 Singly, MCr 416.5904 in Quantity
CONST. TIME    	82 Weeks Singly, 65 Weeks in Quantity
COMMENTS       	TL-9 American SDB in First Interstellar War.


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 19:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Jun 19 18:14:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <E17KnNk-0004VK-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
References: <20020619181620.B1575279E3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020619211050.02951d58@192.168.0.1>

At 02:52 AM 6/20/2002 -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
[snip]
>  I'm honestly fascinated by what
>the social dynamics there will be like in a decade or so, when a
>generation of rural children where men significantly outnumber
>women grow up.

Oh ya...also great campaign fodder.
A really Dark version of "Mars Needs Women."

Your ship lands, the crew goes out on liberty, only the men return...
All of a sudden, there is a lot of government pressure for you to lift 
off...NOW.


----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?
----------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 19:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Jun 19 18:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
Message-ID: <F511s7nlT2NqFJ3sl3x00005723@hotmail.com>

From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>

     "Huh, I have at least one ex who thinks my gender is handicapped simply 
because most of us don't want to DISCUSS elimination..."


Ms. Morgan,

     Point taken.  I shall drop the thread.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 19:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Jun 19 18:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3807@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020619212552.0295a338@192.168.0.1>

...from my sig collection

"...a starship, a robot, two sex toys, and a gun: the raw, heady essence of 
interstellar civilization." -- Kenji Schwarz

A: "Are those battery-powered ben-wa balls?"
B: "No, it's a Sayat attack fleet."
C: "Same difference. Run away!"
-- Kenji Schwarz


Hmmm...I'm going to have follow up Jesse's Famille Spofulam Supplement with 
a few Sayat books...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication
                  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 19:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Jun 19 18:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How good are Darrian SMGs? (was CHAUCHAT Prototype
 Close Escort)
In-Reply-To: <20020618181959.8D36027B61@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <B9348B23.5FEB9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020619213135.02b7b4a8@192.168.0.1>

At 01:19 PM 6/18/2002 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
[snip]

Ted7 (once a member of this list) designed a short Darrian shotgun using 
FF&S for our campaign.
I'll can dig up the stats and post it if you like.
His character was a Darrian Naval Officer and it was his standard sidearm.


>So, bringing this over to Traveller, wouldn't it be interesting to
>give the different Traveller states reputations for excellent and
>crappy classes of weapons. The Solomani are still tops in meson
>weapons, but their plasma weapons couldn't warm a cup of coffee. The
>Zhodani have produced a number of excellent hand laser weapons, but
>lag way behind everyone in meson weapons. Surprisingly, the Darrians
>produce excellent submachine guns, while the Sword Worlder's locally
>produced SMGs are so bad their troops regularly ditch them and buy
>Darrian or Imperial replacements.

The Swordies make excellent carbines and handguns though.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 19:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Jun 19 18:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
In-Reply-To: <F74HoRR0mO8QTd8Di3e000264f0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020620015433.3018B279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/19/02 at 11:59 PM,  "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> said:

>  "A truly advanced technological society will afford me a small
>device  that can whisper people's names in my ear, remind me of
>appointments, (and call the appointees when I'm running late),
>provide me  with the name of that novel that's on the tip of my
>tongue, an obscure fact  I suddenly need to settle a bet at the Club,
>the hours of a restaurant I  have a sudden hankering for, or any of a
>million other things a  preturnaturally knowlegable and infinitely
>obsessive personal secretary will  provide oneself, without the messy
>problem of finding and keeping a human  one."

>     A pocket major domo!  I want one of those!  They have in
>Transhuman  Space, but if they come with genetic slavery, I'll pass.

Don't need genetic slavery for that.  All you need is for wearable
computers to hit their stride and go into vogue.  Bruces' pin, your
armband, and my wrist watch would be computers with wireless
connectivity to each other...and all the other wireless devices in the
neighborhood. I walk up to you, and subvocalize a command through my
wireless throat mike, my computer makes a name inquire of your
computer which responds with "Larson Whipsnade" which is then
whispered into my ear through my wireless earphone and I say, "Hello,
Mr. Whipsnade."  Or it might be your computer replies with "Go get
stuffed.", which informs me you'd rather not know me. <g>  I'm new to
town so I inquire of my computer the name of a good italian
restaurant, it doesn't know, but it sends out the inquire to all
passing computers and before long the name of a local restaurant is
whispered into my ear.  For some reason you want to know the Starport
type for Fornast, so you make an inquiry of your computer and the
request goes out...somewhere on the net that information exists, and
in internet time the answer comes whispering back into your ear.

We are right on the cusp of all of that being doable and affordable.
And we don't *have* to have all the TH baggage with it. <g>


Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 19:59:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Jun 19 18:59:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <RELAY39vXsFFsAitVGe00097cb3@relay3.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020619215602.00cb5958@192.168.0.1>

At 04:34 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, markc@peak.org wrote:
>Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:
> > Does making a Famille Spofulam Supplement count?  >:D
>[URL removed to save lives and preserve property]
>BAD JESSE! NO BELT-FED!!

Man! That's harsh!



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get
is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, ooo hoo
hoo, the sky's the limit! - The Tick  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 20:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Jun 19 19:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How good are Darrian SMGs? (was CHAUCHAT Prototype Close Escort)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020619213135.02b7b4a8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020620020315.E64DC279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/19/02 at 09:34 PM,  Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> said:

>At 01:19 PM 6/18/2002 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>[snip]

>Ted7 (once a member of this list) designed a short Darrian shotgun
>using  FF&S for our campaign.
>I'll can dig up the stats and post it if you like.

>His character was a Darrian Naval Officer and it was his standard
>sidearm.

That's the sort of thing I was talking about. Stats, yes, but more.
What *corp* makes this weapon? Why is good, bad, or ugly? What are
it's quirks? Is it part of a trend for weapons like that from that
corp or state or an exception to a trend? Are there any common, or
uncommon, customizations that are done to it?  Give some anecdotes of
this weapon in use. 

>The Swordies make excellent carbines and handguns though.

Go into detail! Why are they excellent compared to Impie, Zho,
Darrian, etc? Or, conversely why are the others more crappy than the
Swordies? <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 20:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Jun 19 19:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020619074417.009ea6b0@mindspring.com>
References: <d.28863264.2a41d823@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020619221838.02964508@192.168.0.1>

At 07:49 AM 6/19/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
[snip]
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
>http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
>              __
>             )o (--o
>             """"===--(
>            |::|:\             EXTERMINATE!
>            |::|::\
>            ====

I picked up a copy of "The Curse of Fatal Death" at Star Trek con two week 
ago (along with all five seasons of B5 Blooper reels & a Bat'leth).
As a Doctor Who fan from way back, I laughed myself off the couch.


----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Managing sysadmins is like leading a neighborhood gang
of neurotic pumas on jet-powered hoverbikes with nasty
smack habits and opposable thumbs. -- www.monkeybagel.com
----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 20:26:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Jun 19 19:26:06 2002
Subject: [TML] TL-9 American Heavy SDB - SENTRY Class
In-Reply-To: <3D10AC1A.C2CA59F4@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020619222241.02041eb8@192.168.0.1>

At 11:06 AM 6/19/2002 -0500, Roseberry wrote:
> >Ship: Edward Straker
>Would this be Colonel Straker from the old UFO tv series?
>I liked that show.

Ooooohhhh...serious flashbacks here, uniforms for female personnel at 
Moonbase Alpha, submarines with Jet fighters on their snout, Mobiles, cool 
gull wing door cars....


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Umfriend" - Sexual relationship; "this is Chris, my... um... friend."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 20:29:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jun 19 19:29:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Query
Message-ID: <176.a014028.2a42979c@aol.com>

>However, I'm hoping (and expecting) that our future looks an awful 
>lot more like GURPS Transhuman Space, because I *really* like 
>the idea of being an immortal,  hyperintelligent posthuman being.  
>What not to like about living thousands of years, being able to read 
>and fully understand a 500 page novel in half an hour, do tensor 
>calculus in your head, and *never* forget *anything*.

Frankly, there are a few things I'd prefer to forget. The rest of it sounds 
like it has some potential (although I can't for the life of me figure out 
why I would want to do tensor calculus in my head), but I don't think our 
future is going to resemble G:THS any more than it will resemble GT or any 
other game or novel. The predictive value of SF is (to paraphrase David Brin, 
I believe) about the same level of accuracy as weather forcasting -- but 
prediction isn't the point of the exercise.

That said, I believe the future will be d*mned interesting, and I hope I make 
it long enough to sample some of that immortality of which you speak. I have 
no clue what the future holds, and I await it with considerable excitement.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 20:33:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Wed Jun 19 19:33:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Number of British peers (Was: Minimum population...)
In-Reply-To: <20020618223115.2395A27B98@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206200416530.6257-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Stephen Tempest writes:
>"Anthony Colosetti" <acoloset@kent.edu> writes:
>
>>I would actually like to know what was the percentage of noble to commoner
>>during the height of the British Empire, the above number might actually
>>not be off by that much.
>
>If we assume that the House of Lords had about 1,500 members (probably
>on the high side)

Definitely on the high side. In 1808 there were 18 dukes, 12 marquesses,
92 earls, 22 viscounts, and 141 barons for a grand total of 285 hereditary
peers. From 1815 to 1964 the British peerage expanded 'nearly four times'.
That would put the number in 1964 around 1100, but that's well past the
height of the British Empire.

Source: http://www.chivalricorders.org/orders/smom/m-nbprf3.htm




Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 20:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Jun 19 19:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How good are Darrian SMGs? (was CHAUCHAT Prototype
 Close Escort)
In-Reply-To: <20020620020315.E64DC279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020619213135.02b7b4a8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020619222935.0212aeb8@192.168.0.1>

At 09:03 PM 6/19/2002 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>On 06/19/02 at 09:34 PM,  Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> said:
> >At 01:19 PM 6/18/2002 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
> >[snip]
> >Ted7 (once a member of this list) designed a short Darrian shotgun
> >using  FF&S for our campaign.
> >I'll can dig up the stats and post it if you like.
> >His character was a Darrian Naval Officer and it was his standard
> >sidearm.
>That's the sort of thing I was talking about. Stats, yes, but more.
>What *corp* makes this weapon? Why is good, bad, or ugly? What are
>it's quirks? Is it part of a trend for weapons like that from that
>corp or state or an exception to a trend? Are there any common, or
>uncommon, customizations that are done to it?  Give some anecdotes of
>this weapon in use.
> >The Swordies make excellent carbines and handguns though.
>Go into detail! Why are they excellent compared to Impie, Zho,
>Darrian, etc? Or, conversely why are the others more crappy than the
>Swordies? <g>

In good time sir, in good time! :-)
I'm currently juggling work, family life, exercise & 3 and half PBEM 
traveller games (Big Band Theory, The Frontier Campaign, Corridor, and a 
NOTU Near Earth game running in slow motion).

Perhaps this weekend, after working with the Scouts, yard work, dealing 
with visiting family, etc. :-)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 20:45:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Wed Jun 19 19:45:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU setting
In-Reply-To: <20020618085310.0C69C27B66@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206200435260.6257-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Peter Trevor writes:
>Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>>> - The shipyard is there because General wanted a location in  the
>>>   subsector and the lack of a proper government on Pixie means no
>>>   local taxation and no local labour laws.
>>
>>And no local labor, no local food, no local sub-components, no
>>local support services. In short, everything has to be imported,
>>which will tend to eat up any tax savings to put it mildly.
>
>The presence of the shipyard on Pixie  is  established  canon.

And I claim that the established canon on Pixie doesn't make sense.

>Scenario:  A lazy scout working for IGS arrives at Pixie and asks
>who the local government is.  An aggressive (and  maybe  slightly
>drunk) miner claims to represent the local government.  The  lazy
>scout and the press officer from the shipyard look at each  other
>and shrug ... and the scout notes down the  miners  claim  before
>leaving for the next system (of many).

In other words: The canonical UWP for Pixie is wrong.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 20:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Jun 19 19:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SKYBOLT System Defense Boat
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020619200821.00967100@minn.net>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020619160851.00973330@minn.net>
 <3.0.6.32.20020619145524.0096fa00@minn.net>
 <7d.28f95e55.2a42343f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020619214735.00979c80@minn.net>

At 08:08 PM 6/19/2002 -0500, I wrote:
>I did a rough draft with HGS and then fine tuned the craft with pencil,
>paper, and pocket calculator.

I goofed on the armor. This design should still work for TL 10.

>Permission is granted for posting on websites:
>
>Ship: Paladin
>Class: Northrup-Grumman Skybolt
>Type: System Defense Boat
>Architect: Leslie Bates
>Tech Level: 9
>
>SB-9-400 Paladin  SB-41067C2-800000-30003-0 MCr 520.738 400 Tons
>     Batteries Bearing              2   1   Crew: 11
>     Batteries                      2   1   TL: 9
>Cargo: 6. Fuel: 62 EP: 31 Agility: 6
>Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
>
>Detailed Description
>
>HULL:          	400 tons standard, 5,600 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge
>Configuration
>CREW:          	Pilot, Navigator, 5 Engineers, Medic, 3 Gunners
>ENGINEERING:   	Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-7, 31 EP, Agility 6
>AVIONICS       	Bridge, Model/3fib Computer
>HARDPOINTS     	4 Hardpoints
>ARMAMENT       	2 Triple Missile Turrets organised into 1 Battery
>(Factor-3), 2 Triple Beam Laser 			Turrets organised into 2 Batteries
>(Factor-3)
>DEFENCES       	Armoured Hull (Factor-8)
>FUEL           	62 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 56 days endurance) On
>Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel 			Purification Plant
>MISCELLANEOUS  	6 Staterooms, 6 Tons Cargo
>COST           	MCr 520.738 Singly, MCr 416.5904 in Quantity
>CONST. TIME    	82 Weeks Singly, 65 Weeks in Quantity
>COMMENTS       	TL-9 American SDB in First Interstellar War.


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 20:51:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Jun 19 19:51:55 2002
Subject: [TML] TL-9 American Heavy SDB - SENTRY Class
Message-ID: <200206200250.IVH03749@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>Ooooohhhh...serious flashbacks here, uniforms for female 
>personnel at Moonbase Alpha, submarines with Jet fighters on 
>their snout, Mobiles, cool gull wing door cars....
>

That whole Gerry Anderson sensation - paranoia and great 
miniatures...

And that music.  I have a couple of mp3 files that I just 
love. 
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 20:56:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Jun 19 19:56:14 2002
Subject: [TML] How good are Darrian SMGs? (was CHAUCHAT Prototype Close
 Escort)
In-Reply-To: <20020620020315.E64DC279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEPBHNAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>




On 06/19/02 at 09:34 PM,  Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> said:

>At 01:19 PM 6/18/2002 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>[snip]

>Ted7 (once a member of this list) designed a short Darrian shotgun
>using  FF&S for our campaign.
>I'll can dig up the stats and post it if you like.

>His character was a Darrian Naval Officer and it was his standard
>sidearm.

That's the sort of thing I was talking about. Stats, yes, but more.
What *corp* makes this weapon? Why is good, bad, or ugly? What are
it's quirks? Is it part of a trend for weapons like that from that
corp or state or an exception to a trend? Are there any common, or
uncommon, customizations that are done to it?  Give some anecdotes of
this weapon in use. 

>The Swordies make excellent carbines and handguns though.

Go into detail! Why are they excellent compared to Impie, Zho,
Darrian, etc? Or, conversely why are the others more crappy than the
Swordies? <g>

Eris
-----------------------------------------------------------
Here are two for ya.  

Covaiare Miliaire is a general purpose gun design company based out of 
Trin who specialize in licensing production of their models on many
worlds Behind the Claw. 

Assuming that you are interested in unloading a lot of high velocity
lead downrange and don't want to spend a lot of money they are 
most definitely worth your consideration.  Their guns wear like iron. 
rarely if ever get knocked out of alignment. They are also ugly. heavy,
and have actions that seemingly are designed to smash your knuckles 
every time you reload.

Olafsen Gunnes is a major sidearm manufacture in the Sword Worlds.  Their
pistols show up on the hips of Armor crew people, officers, pilots
and space craft crews and are respected for their stopping power and 
accuracy.  Basically when you get a Olafsen Gunne who get a well made
in it's own right pistol with standardized customizable features on it.
The balance point can be moved in a 4 cm circle to maximize personal 
style,  the grips come with a thermal foam that adjust to fit
the hand of the user. This standardized customizable feature is common 
Sword World sidearm, and consist of weights that can be adjusted along
channels on the barrel and grip and are crimped into place when adjusted
properly.  






From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 21:01:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Jun 19 20:01:38 2002
Subject: [TML] SPA NOTICE [and Rodeo Update]
Message-ID: <3D1143BF.E52ED4E8@mail.cswnet.com>

SPA NOTICE 1106-7669-01

Due to the influx of starships for the TML Rodeo, we regret to inform
you that service to and from the downports at Arba, Rabwhar, and Lanth
may be severly restricted. Service to high pop class A/V starports
remains unaffected.

The Rodeo Update, as of Digest #647
1. Cougar class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
2. Valuta class Assault Landing Ship--John Kwon
3. DBZ class Heavy Attack Scout--Dan Roseberry
4. Cuda class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
5. Cobra class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
6. Carronade class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
7. Chukkar class Merchant--John Kwon
8. Pell class Cargo Ship--John-Martin
9. Juniper class Missile Corvette--Anthony Colosetti
10. Ferdinand class Exploration Cruiser--Alan Bradley
11. Moronica Sisters Type A1.7725 Merchant--Alan Spik
12. Makiidi class Bulk Trader--Stephen Tempest
13. Shambieau class trader--Nick
14. Chauchat class Escort--Leslie Bates
15. Oldendorf class Tramp Trader--Dan Roseberry
16. Girls Best Friend [TL11 Seeker class]--Dan Roseberry
17. Minnie Me [Micro Trader class]--Dan Roseberry
18. Sinzsha Maru [Sonzsha Maru class Ore carrier]--Dan Roseberry
19. April Hare [TypeR2 Large Merchant]--Mike West
20. Harvest Class Merchant/LASH--John Kwon
21. Fleetwing Fast Cargo Courier--John Snead
22. Azure Swift Fast Passenger Courier--John Snead
23. Nightfall Frontier Fast Courier--John Snead
24. Stormhawk class Q-ship Escort--Shadowcat
25. "Space Family Dancourt" Modular Habitat--Timothy Little
26. Ides of the March Armed Liner--David Shayne
27. Hughes Racing Yacht--Anthony Colosetti
28. Grote Clan Trader--Larsen E. Whipsnade
29. The Yugobox--Bruce Johnson
30. Gabriel Missile Corvette--Leslie Bates
31. Shashkitar Battle Cruiser--Dan Roseberry
32. Wee Willie modified Grote Class--Larsen Whipsnade
33. Pickwick LBL-3D class--Larsen Whipsnade
34. SM-J-008 Kachina class--Larsen Whipsnade
35. Straker, Sentry class--Leslie Bates
36. Kamakaze, Mitsubibhi Wind class--Leslie Bates
37. Lucky Buck Mining Processor--Jeffrey Greenly

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 21:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Jun 19 20:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Corrected SKYBOLT System Defense Boat
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020619200821.00967100@minn.net>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020619160851.00973330@minn.net>
 <3.0.6.32.20020619145524.0096fa00@minn.net>
 <7d.28f95e55.2a42343f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020619220209.0097c210@minn.net>

Permission is granted for posting on websites, here's the corrected version:

Ship: Paladin
Class: Northrup-Grumman Skybolt
Type: System Defense Boat
Architect: Leslie Bates
Tech Level: 9


SB-9-400 Paladin  SB-41068C2-600000-30003-0 MCr 502.738 400 Tons
Batteries Bearing                   2   1   Crew: 11
Batteries                           2   1   TL: 9
Cargo: 2. Fuel: 62 EP: 31 Agility: 6
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Detailed Description

HULL:               400 tons standard, 5,600 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge
Configuration
CREW:               Pilot, Navigator, 5 Engineers, Medic, 3 Gunners
ENGINEERING:        Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-8, 31 EP, Agility 6
AVIONICS            Bridge, Model/3fib Computer
HARDPOINTS          4 Hardpoints
ARMAMENT            2 Triple Missile Turrets organised into 1 Battery
(Factor-3), 2 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organized into 2 Batteries (Factor-3)
DEFENCES            Armoured Hull (Factor-6)
FUEL                62 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 56 days endurance) On
Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant
MISCELLANEOUS       6 Staterooms, 2 Tons Cargo
COST                MCr 502.738 Singly, MCr 402.1904 in Quantity
CONST. TIME         82 Weeks Singly, 65 Weeks in Quantity
COMMENTS            TL-9 American SDB in First Interstellar War.



=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 21:11:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Jun 19 20:11:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo
In-Reply-To: <3D1143BF.E52ED4E8@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEPCHNAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


8. Pell class Cargo Ship--John-Martin

permission granted to use the Pell class on any 
website

jml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 21:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Jun 19 20:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Weapon Review Rodeo
Message-ID: <200206200317.IVI00127@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

And in another ring on the rodeo floor..

Well, someone said write about guns, but don't pound us with 
the gearhead stuff -- give us some meat and potatoes about 
background.

I originally put this on the guntech list, but I don't see it 
in the archives there, so here it is..

THE SHORT PULSE LASER COMPACT
OLD FASHIONED OR OLD FAITHFUL?

TRULY COMPACT GAUSS PISTOLS ABOUND, 
BUT IS IT TIME TO RETIRE THE SHORT-BARRELED LASER PISTOL?

When I entered the Lunion Police Academy in the fall of 1088, 
there were several things expected of us. There were items to 
purchase, notebooks to assemble, shoes to shine, khaki's to 
press, and a shorty laser pistol to put on lay away at a 
local gun shop. 

The Lunion Police had a liberal firearms policy, issuing a 
standard laser pistol with 5" barrel while allowing officers 
to carry any personally-owned UAC or MilStar laser pistol.

While many of us planned to buy a more powerful duty weapon, 
I have to admit that my off-duty plans did not extend beyond 
the eight shot laser pistol I was paying for over time. 
Approximately half way through the 15 week academy, 
I became aware of a new line of laser pistols called Super 
Pulse. Arn Iolo, the inventor of this laser pistol, had 
reduced the pulse time from 250 milliseconds to 80 
milliseconds for the same power rating.  The pistol was 
ergonomically designed to fit the hand, unlike the bulky 
service weapon, and had a natural pointing quality. He had 
dramatically increased energy dump in the target, and the 
result was a pistol that would produce a more explosive
effect in human tissue.

My Agency for some unknown reason had decided that it was ok 
to have a short pulse rate in a privately-owned weapon, but 
not a department issue one. Shortly, before graduation I 
walked into the gun shop to make another payment on my laser. 
While there I noticed they had a couple of new Iolo Super 
Pulse models. Since the department regulation said the short 
pulse was OK, I had my order changed to the new weapon.

I had already planned to replace my laser pistol with a UAC 
Model 75 as soon as I could find one, but decided to do the 
best I could for the moment. Verrus Skala, a gun writer of 
note, was kind enough to evaluate this weapon's energy dump 
and inform me that five shots averaged 82 milliseconds at 
40MW, a dramatic improvement over the 250 milliseconds 
produced by the department issue Federal 40MW. 

I had been converted to the concept of carrying a second gun, 
so my shorty served double duty as both a backup and off-duty 
weapon. I was perfectly happy with this approach until one 
night in a corner simulacrum. I came as close as I ever care 
to come to dying violently because the shorty with its 
radical pulse time did not produce the desired results. 

My response was to carry a 10mm caseless until I got jammed 
up at Homicide one night for carrying a non-approved handgun. 
By then I had found a UAC 75MW and started carrying it both 
on and off-duty. Of course I had to dress around the gun, but 
that big old laser pistol brought a level of comfort that 
more than overcame the complications its carrying brought.

The shorty was relegated to second gun use only, and the 
short pulse time offering was eventually replaced by Iolo's 
excellent rapid triple pulse. The original shorty had been 
replaced by a light weight version with a reflex holster. It 
was never fired in anger, but I routinely made traffic stops 
with it hidden behind my leg. On several occasions, the mere 
displaying of this weapon brought things to a screeching halt.

During the duty years near the extrality fence, the weather 
was colder, so the short jacket was replaced by the long 
uniform coat. During this period I switched the location of 
my second from the right rear pants pocket to the right side 
jacket of the heavy coat. I made every vehicle stop and every 
field investigation with my right hand gripped around 
the shorty in my coat pocket.

Some years before retirement I made a critical decision and 
decided that it was foolish to carry a second gun on-duty and 
only a single handgun off-duty. After all, when off-duty; I 
was not easily identified as a law enforcement officer; 
without a partner, and without radio communication. The 
shorty was relegated to a coat pocket in cold weather and an 
ankle holster the rest of the year. I've never been a big fan 
of ankle holsters but there wasn't a viable alternative until 
a local man produced a superb penguin hide pocket holster. 
Today, my 4mm Gauss semiauto is backed up by a shorty triple 
pulse in a Ventrix pocket holster. Now, it may seem paranoid 
that a 57 year old retired police sergeant carries not one 
but two pistols. All, I know is that redundancy in this area 
seems simple common sense to me.

Recently I met a local cop at our Sportsman Club and he 
started to lust after my lightweight shorty. I sold it to him 
and promptly went out to buy a replacement. Now I know there 
all sorts of small rapid pulse laser pistols that are meant 
for serious work, but there's something about the shorty that 
I find comforting. It's simple, reliable, and we go back a 
long ways. There was many a time I went in harm's way knowing 
that I had an option-just in case.

________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 21:23:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Jun 19 20:23:15 2002
Subject: [TML] SPA NOTICE [and Rodeo Update]
Message-ID: <F272teiLEzxGRJkJEg000010250@hotmail.com>

From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>

       "The Rodeo Update, as of Digest #647..."


Mr. Roseberry,

     WOO-WEE!  Thirty Seven entries so far and it ain't even July yet!  
Mebbe we should think of paring a week or two of'n the contest if we get 
near 75?
     Watta you think, pard?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. "Lilac Saddle Soap" Whipsnade

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 21:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Jun 19 20:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Another for the gun rodeo ring
Message-ID: <200206200323.IVJ00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Urdiss Arms Corporation 

New Models for 1120

UAC Personal Defense Weapon (UAC-PDW)

This year's offering in the personal defense weapon class 
from UAC is no exception to their usual classic design 
philosophy.  UAC has typically been known for their long 
arms, and unlike other producers of electromag (Gauss) 
weaponry, have not previously ventured into the fields of 
pistols and personal defense weapons.  The abortive effort 
three years ago by the company to produce a civilian carbine 
version of their military rifle was presumably the last foray 
by the company into shorter weaponry.

The overall package is standard UAC, with a customary 
inclusion of the "titanium wrap".  This is an external 
unitary shell into which the components of the weapon fit 
from beneath.  Assembled, the weapon is relatively well 
protected against dust, dirt, mud, sand, and other 
contaminants.  At the same time, the weapon will empty of 
water in under 1 second after full immersion.  The titanium 
shell is further coated by a sapphire coating which offers 
great resistance to scratching and abuse.

The basic weapon layout is not much larger than the standard 
service pistol, with a few inches of additional length before 
and behind the central grip. An extensible foregrip is 
included under the muzzle, and a retractable stock is 
included.  However, the weapon is intended to be fired 
without the retractable stock.

Electromagnetic fields propel a 2 gram 2 x 75mm tungsten 
flechette within a plastic sabot containing steel rings for 
optimum engagement with the accelerating fields.  The plastic 
discarding sabot is the hallmark of the traditional UAC 
weapon, and here, it makes its mark in an ability to rapidly 
feed rounds from a high capacity helical feed 100 round 
magazine.

The magazine, in the tradition of the usual UAC weapons, is 
mounted atop the receiver, but the magazine holds sixty more 
rounds than the standard UAC electromag rifle.

The weapon fires in one of three modes: single shot, three 
round burst, or ten round burst. Computer controlled motors 
regulate the firing cycle with mathematical precision.

Muzzle velocity is 4000 feet per second.  The cyclic rate of 
the weapon is 2200 rounds per minute, giving the weapon 
excellent controllability.

The weapon is equipped with a reflex lead computing 
gunsight.  The weapon nose has an array of six gallium 
arsenide lasers mounted radially, which are aimed forward in 
a conical pattern.  These lasers, in conjunction with a small 
millimeter wave radar and thermal sensor below the weapon 
nose, detect and predict target movement.  A set of laser 
ring gyros in the weapon detect weapon motion input by the 
user.

The weapon sight automatically tracks target, rounds in 
flight, and weapon motion, shifting the illuminated reticle 
without user intervention. In addition to moving the reticle, 
the user also sees a visual cue showing the suggested 
direction of correction.

This sight is the hallmark of the current UAC-21 Gauss Rifle, 
and its use here is only natural, given the great close 
quarters capabilities of the UAC-21.

The UAC-PDW, in the same manner as the UAC-21, can be 
connected via standard  WSI (Weapon-Sight Interface) 
connector, to enable wearers of WSI compatible helmet/head up 
displays to use the weapon without raising it to the line of 
sight.  This also allows round-the-corner use, one-handed, 
and hip-firing without significant penalty.  Optionally, the 
user can select voice cueing, which lets the user know in one 
of several user-selectable voices, information about 
suggested corrections.

The projectiles themselves are teflon-coated tungsten, giving 
excellent performance against most man-portable armor.  While 
there are complaints about lethality (complaints that are not 
generally heard about the UAC-21 rifle round, which is a 2 x 
125mm tungsten projectile at 7500 feet per second), the use 
of the three and especially ten-round burst are certain to 
garner the immediate lethality and stopping power expected of 
a close quarters weapon.

Options for this year include mild steel flechettes, bringing 
increased prompt lethality while sacrificing armor 
penetration.  Newly introduced are the glass tipped rounds, 
which maintain aerodynamic stability (due to rearward center 
of gravity), retain some measure of penetration, and offer an 
immediate disintegration of the tip of the round in the first 
three inches of flesh, as well as the immediate 
destabilization of the tungsten rear of the flechette.  Tests 
on cadavers and ballistic gelatin indicate an explosive wound 
effect, showing three to five inch diameter "shark-bite" 
wounds at the point of entry.


________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 21:34:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Jun 19 20:34:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Weapon Review Rodeo
In-Reply-To: <200206200317.IVI00127@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9369AAB.608A9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Another gun review, reprinted here from the travellercentral web site.

Tod


This Viper Has A Sting
Iron River Gunworks Releases a Radical Pistol
Staff


Iron River Gunworks, of Two Sticks, Regina Prime, is known for producing
radical and ingenious firearms in limited number runs, and their latest
offering is no exception. Dubbed the 'Viper' as a tip of the hat to a well
know local gunslinger, the pistol is as unique as it's namesake.

The Viper is a fully automatic 4.7mm open-bolt pistol with a magazine
containing 25 bottle-neck rounds. The designer, Karl Czepke, was quick to
point out that the pistol is more accurately described as using a locking
system called 'Advanced Primer Ignition' or API. What this means its that
the rounds are fired a millisecond before the bolt is fully closed. As a
result, the spent case must first overcome the forward momentum of the bolt
before it can be ejected. This system not only provides breech locking, but
also significantly reduces recoil, a critical factor in a 1 kg pistol that
spits out bullets at a rate of over 1000 rnds per minute, and at a
blistering 1080 meters per second.

Like all of Iron River's pistols, the Viper is made from EDM machined alloy
steel forgings. The finish is mirror perfect polished with crisp edges. The
gun wore Iron River's proprietary 'deep blue', which gives the it a lustrous
blue-black finish that is impervious to the elements. The grips are
perfectly executed black carbon-fibre.

Field stripping was simple following the included instructions, and the
internal parts were as perfectly finished as the external, with no sign of
any machining marks anywhere. We don't recommend going beyond a field strip,
as the gun fits together like a Hiver puzzle. In fact, the only screws on
the gun are on the grips and rear sight. This pistol pointed naturally and
fit the hand like a glove. It begged to be fired. We accompanied Mr. Czepke
to Iron River's gun range with 500 round of ammo for some serious testing.

For a pistol firing what is essentially a shortened rifle case, we expected
some muzzle blast. What we were unprepared for was the Viper's huge tongue
of flame when the gun is fired in the full automatic mode. However, recoil
was snappy but surprisingly mild, and the gun was suprisingly quiet, thank
to the Viper's active sound suppressor, which emits an inverse pulse of
sound that effectively cancels most of the 130 dBs generated buy this gun.

The trigger is a crisp two stage--what is known as a progressive trigger. A
pull to the first stop gives conventional semiautomatic fire. Pull the
trigger to the second stop and the gun's 25 round magazine is emptied in a
sharp cough. Fortunately, the Viper has a selector that lets the user choose
between full automatic and five round burst. It took some getting useful,
and 500 rounds disappeared quickly. A quick trip to replenish our supplies,
and back to the range. After a bit more practice and using the burst mode,
were able to consistently place 5 round groups in a 10cm circle at 15m.

The gun is supplied in a fitted gollar-wood case with 2 magazines and 100
round of ammunition, spare springs, screws and sight tool. All for only
Cr7500. At that price, the Viper is not for everyone. But if you are one of
the lucky ones who can afford it and don't mind waiting the six months it
will take to get one, our advice is buy lots of ammo. This gun begs to be
shot, and in the full auto mode will burn up that 100 rounds in a tenth of a
second.

We're not sure what tactical role this handgun fills, but it's a lot of fun.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 22:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Jun 19 21:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo -- Cecil Rhodes Class Utility
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020619214735.00979c80@minn.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEPFHNAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Permission granted to post
Permission granted to post as part of the TML Rodeo


The Cecil Rhodes class utility is the Utility truck of the star lanes
simple, ubiquitous, flexible. this 500 ton merchanter has over half its
volume devoted to a massive cargo bay.   This cargo space is almost
irresistible to customization and refit.  Unarmed in the basic model,
this Cecil Rhodes has 5 hard points and dedicated fire control controls.
Variants include a 40 passenger shuttle equipped liner, A 2 + 2 150 ton
cargo hauler.



Ship: Rimfire
Class: Cecil Rhodes
Type: utility
Architect: jml
Tech Level: 12

USP
         UT-5321231-100000-00000-0 MCr 246.500 500 Tons
Bat Bear                           Crew: 5
Bat                                TL: 12

Cargo: 267.000 Fuel: 110.000 EP: 10.000 Agility: 1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 2.465   Cost in Quantity: MCr 197.200


Detailed Description

TONNAGE
500.000 tons standard, 7,000.000 cubic meters, Cylinder Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 2 Engineers, Medic

ENGINEERING
Jump-2, 1G Maneuver, Power plant-2, 10.000 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3 Computer

HARDPOINTS
5 Hard points

ARMARMENT
5 None Empty Turret

DEFENCES
Armored Hull (Factor-1)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
105.000 Tons Fuel (2 parsecs jump and 30 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
5.0 Staterooms, 267.000 Tons Cargo

COST
Mr. 248.965 Singly (incl. Architects fees of Mr. 2.465), Mr. 197.200 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
91 Weeks Singly, 73 Weeks in Quantity


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 22:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Jun 19 21:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] AMAZONE Class System Defense Boat
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020619214735.00979c80@minn.net>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020619200821.00967100@minn.net>
 <3.0.6.32.20020619160851.00973330@minn.net>
 <3.0.6.32.20020619145524.0096fa00@minn.net>
 <7d.28f95e55.2a42343f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020619232750.009695f0@minn.net>

Permission is granted for posting on websites.

With tongue firmly in cheek I present:

Ship: Xena
Class: Aerospatiale Amazone
Type: System Defense Boat
Architect: Leslie Bates
Tech Level: 9

SB  XENA      SB-22066C1-600000-30002-0 MCr 232.388 200 Tons
   Batteries Bearing            1   1   Crew: 6
   Batteries                    1   1   TL: 9
Cargo: 1 Fuel: 24 EP: 12 Agility: 4
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 2.324   Cost in Quantity: MCr 185.910


Detailed Description

HULL:			200.000 tons standard, 2,800.000 cubic meters, Cone Configuration
CREW:			Pilot, 2 Engineers, Medic, 2 Gunners
ENGINEERING:		Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-6, 12 EP, Agility 4
AVIONICS:		Bridge, Model/3fib Computer
ARMAMENT:		1 Triple Missile Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-2), 1
Triple Beam Laser Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-3)
DEFENCES:		Armoured Hull (Factor-6)
FUEL:			24 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 56 days endurance) On Board Fuel
Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant
MISCELLANEOUS:	3 Staterooms, 1 Ton Cargo
COST:			MCr 234.712 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 2.324), MCr
185.910 in Quantity
CONSTRUCTION TIME:	57 Weeks Singly, 46 Weeks in Quantity
COMMENTS:		A French designed system defense boat marketed primarily at
members of the European Union (and other states) who lack an independent
shipbuilding capability but who insist on having their own "national
squadron."

Unfortunately, some examples of this class, which are owned by
less-developed nations, rarely leave Terra's atmosphere and are only flown
on special occasions, such as the national independence day.

The UNSCA considers this to be a gross waste of resources.


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 22:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Jun 19 21:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo -- Openhiemer Class Fast Escort
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEPFHNAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEPGHNAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Permission granted to post as part of the TML Rodeo


The Darrien Oppenhiemer Class is a light escort assigned to most
Darrien Task Forces as perimeter defense and escort.  Efficient
and no nonsense like typical Darrien designs, the Oppenhiemer
also demonstrates the flair and elegance of typical Darrien design.

At home in an atmosphere as well as deep space, effectively armed and
armored, the Oppie is agile enough to dog fight with fighters, armored
enough
to provide ground support, Capable of keeping up with a fleet, or
acting independently as a courier, this Oppenhiemer is a no battle
cruiser but within its roles serves effectively and efficiently.
jml


Ship: Greek Fire
Class: Openhiemer
Type: Fast Escort
Architect: jml
Tech Level: 15

USP
         ES-5146662-600000-05000-0 Mr. 402.580 500 Tons
Bat Bear                    1      Crew: 16
Bat                         1      TL: 15

Cargo: 10.000 Fuel: 230.000 EP: 30.000 Agility: 3
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 4.026   Cost in Quantity: MCr 322.064


Detailed Description

TONNAGE
500.000 tons standard, 7,000.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configeration

CREW
10 Officers, 6 Ratings

ENGINEERING
Jump-4, 6G Manuever, Power plant-6, 30.000 EP, Agility 3

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/6 Computer

HARDPOINTS
5 Hardpoints

ARMARMENT
5 Dual Plasma Gun Turrets in 1 Battery (Factor-5)

DEFENCES
Armoured Hull (Factor-6)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
205.000 Tons Fuel (4 parsecs jump and 30 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant, 30.000 ton drop
tanks

MISCELLANEOUS
11.0 Staterooms, 10.000 Tons Cargo

COST
MCr 406.606 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 4.026), MCr 322.064 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
91 Weeks Singly, 73 Weeks in Quantity


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 22:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Jun 19 21:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] AMAZONE Class System Defense Boat
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020619232750.009695f0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEPHHNAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

With tongue firmly in cheek I present:

Ship: Xena
Class: Aerospatiale Amazone


I'm not sure the significance of my finding this link  but
somehow it seems appropriate

http://www.btinternet.com/~a.patrick/fantasy.htm

jml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Jun 19 23:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Jun 19 22:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Q-ship versus Corsairs (long)
Message-ID: <F116pTPRVcbCcwq2dvw00026513@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

	I thought some of the grognards among us might be interested in the HG2 
battle I rolled up after designing the Q-ship, Kachina.  Don&#8217;t worry, I 
haven&#8217;t recreated every step in the HG2 combat system or listed every die 
roll, just the results, nor will I list entire the complete USPs for the 
participants.  However, when modified &#8220;to hit&#8217; chances force certain 
choices, I have explained them more fully.

The Combatants:
     Zeitlin Zephyr	Vargr			Q-ship
     Beowulf		Corsairs		Kachina
Size	200dT(2)	400dT(4)		300dT(3)
Armor	0		0			8
Gees	1		5			4
Agility	1		5			4
Comp	1		2			J(9)
Wpns	2 f-1 lasers	2 f-4 lasers		1 f-4 laser
	2 f-1 missiles	2 f-3 missiles		1 f-3 missiles (nucs)
	2 f-2 sand				1 f-5 fusion gun

Pre-battle:
     Two Vargr corsairs jump the &#8220;Zeitlin Zephyr&#8221; during a 
wilderness-refueling pass at a gas giant off Yebab/Aramis.  The trader 
immediately complies with their demand to stand down for boarding.  (The 
captain has no real choice in the matter.  At long range, his missile 
batteries would have to roll a 12 on 2D6 to hit and his lasers cannot hit at 
all.  The corsairs have a better computer and a high agility.  Furthermore, 
risking fire from the corsairs could prove fatal very quickly.  The 
corsairs&#8217; battery factors are large enough to cause automatic critical hits 
with every penetration.)
     The corsairs shape an intercept course for boarding.  (Homebrew rule &#8211; 
I roll a D6 for the number of combat rounds until interception and get a 4 
or 80 minutes.)  As the Vargr begin their intercept, a weeble-shaped vessel 
pops out of the gas giant&#8217;s cloud deck at four gees and radios them to 
surrender.  The Vargr commander orders one vessel to take care of the new 
arrival while he goes on to board.  The battle commences.

Round One
	Initiative &#8211; Imperial
	Range &#8211; long (automatic)
	Vargr formation:
V1 corsair in line of battle (being sent to take care of interloper)
V2 corsair in reserve (continuing boarding course)
	Imperial formation:
Kachina in line of battle
	Combat:
Kachina presented for Vargr fire &#8211; with agility 4, a size modifier of &#8211;1, 
and a computer differential of SEVEN, every roll against the Kachina has a 
&#8211;12 drm.  Then add the &#8211;1 drm for lasers at long range.  The Vargr don&#8217;t 
know this as of yet.  He fires two laser and two missile batteries at the 
oncoming ship, missing completely.
V1 corsair presented for Imperial fire - agility 5 and a size modifier of &#8211;1 
give the corsair a &#8211;6 drm at first.  The Kachina&#8217;s computer turns that into 
a +1 drm!  Kachina fires an f-4 laser battery and an f-3 missile battery, 
hitting with both.  The fusion gun cannot fire at long range.
	Damage:
The corsair has no sandcasters or nuclear dampers and has left no lasers 
free for AM fire, so no defensive rolls are made.  Kachina fires nucs at the 
corsair, which receive two damage rolls on the damage tables.  The first 
results in a roll on the internal explosion table for power plant-2.  The 
second roll results in comp-2.  The lasers hit results in a weapons-1 hit.  
Planning to close the range next round, I choose to knock out one laser 
battery.  So, the corsair has lost his computer (comp-2 hit on a model 2), 
40% of his power plant capacity (2 out of 5), and one laser battery.

Round Two
	Initiative &#8211; Imperial
	Range &#8211; short
	Vargr formation:
V1 corsair in line of battle (using emergency agility and attempting to 
break off)
V2 corsair in reserve (still on intercept course)
	Imperial formation:
Kachina in line of battle
	Combat:
Kachina presented for Vargr fire &#8211; agility 4, size modifier &#8211;1, and a comp 
diff of NINE, the Kachina cannot be hit by any of the Vargr batteries.  The 
corsair holds his single laser battery for AM use.
V1 presented for Imperial fire &#8211; agility is now 2, size modifier &#8211;1, comp 
diff 9 for a final to hit drm of &#8211;6 (-5 for missiles at short range).  All 
three batteries hit, f-4 laser, f-3 missile, and f-5 fusion gun.
	Damage:
Corsair&#8217;s single laser battery fails to stop Kachina&#8217;s missile strike.  
There is no sand to stop the laser or fusion gun hits.  Nuc missile damage 
results in a fuel-2 and comp-2 roll.  Laser hit damage is fuel-2 also.  
Fusion gun damage roll is a weapons-1 hit, I choose to knock out a missile 
battery.  Most importantly, the fusion gun hit results in one critical hit 
(factor 5 versus size 4).  That roll is &#8220;bridge destroyed&#8221;.  The corsair can 
no longer maneuver or jump (the loss of the computer earlier meant she 
couldn&#8217;t jump anyway).  This corsair is essentially dead.

Round Three
	Initiative: Imperial
	Range: long (Imperials have &#8220;broken through&#8221; the Vargr line and are 
bringing the reserve under attack).
	Vargr formation:
V1 corsair in line of battle (dead in space)
V2 corsair in line of battle (breaking off from intercept of Zephyr, 
attempting to break off from Kachina)
	Imperial formation:
Kachina in line of battle (pursuing V2 corsair)
	Combat:
Kachina presented for Vargr fire &#8211; once again, the drms conspire against the 
Vargr and only one hit from the three missile batteries is made.  Both 
corsairs hold their laser batteries in reserve for AM use.
V1 presented for Imperial fire &#8211; Kachina passes.
V2 presented for Imperial fire &#8211; agility 5, size modifier &#8211;1, comp diff 7, 
final drm of +1 (0 for laser battery at long range).  Missile battery hits 
and laser battery hits.
	Damage:
Kachina&#8217;s computer differential of 7 renders the Vargr AM fire moot.  The 
two damage rolls due nuc missiles results in a critical hit, rolled as &#8220;jump 
drive destroyed&#8221;, and comp-2, effectively destroying the vessel&#8217;s model-2 
computer.  Having no sand, V2 cannot effect the laser hit.  Damage there is 
weapons-1, I choose to eliminate a laser battery.
	Pursuit:
V2 was attempting to break off with an agility of 5.  Kachina only has an 
agility of 4, so the Vargr succeeds.  However, with a destroyed jump drive, 
V2 is essentially trapped in the Yebab system.

Summary:
	Although they didn&#8217;t know what the Kachina was, and that&#8217;s what makes 
Q-ships so much fun, the Vargr could have lived to raid another day if they 
had immediately broke off their attempt to board the &#8220;Zeitlin Zephyr&#8221;.  A 
big agility rating and a single computer level ensured that the free trader 
couldn&#8217;t defend itself against the corsairs.  A huge computer differential 
let the Kachina damage both corsairs despite their agility.  The Imperial 
also rolled rather well, getting a 2 on 2D6 in the third round to take out 
V2&#8217;s jump drive.
	My homebrewed &#8220;flexible battery&#8221; rules could have improved both the 
corsairs and free trader&#8217;s chances.

	That&#8217;s all.  Hope you liked it.


	Sincerely,
	Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 02:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Jun 20 01:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] fueling ships
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEMKHNAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEBAHPAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

John-Martin wrote :
>
> How long does it take?
>
> I have to admit total ignorance in modern terms how long it
> takes to fuel things that have large fuel needs.  Larsen or
> some navy boffin may know how long, say a conventionally
> powered destroyer or cruiser takes. AS a WAG, we should be
> talking in terms of hours to gas -- well H2 is a gas :) --
> up even a far trader

No idea on the really big stuff, but it takes about fifteen to
twenty minutes to refuel an F27 or an Andover (both twin-engined
turbo-props)  when you have a large, pressurized  tanker, or
runway refuelling points, and several hours when you have to hand
pump it from 44 gallon drums. It can take well over half an hour
to refuel a large commecial jet.

I seem to remember someone saying it took several days to re-coal
a 20thC ship.

 In a similar vein I've been doing some thinking about
> wilderness refueling.  How common is it in YTU?  Slamming a
ship into
> the atmosphere of a gas giant, opening the doors to
> the outside, gulping up many tonnes of gas while flying at
transonic speeds,
> all the while maneuvering in close proximity to a deep
> gravity well strikes me as mayhaps a trifle on the risky side.
> I'm of the opinion that a tender might do it, but save in the
> case of the utmost emergency the main ship would never do it.

Remember, this is only _one_ way of wilderness refueling.
The other is to land next to, or on, an ocean, and refine the
fuel from that.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 02:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Thu Jun 20 01:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo -- Brilliant Pebble Monitor
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEPGHNAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEPNHNAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Permission granted to post as part of the TML Rodeo

Lest I forget, these ships were made using Mr.
Moffatt-Vallance's excellent High Guard Shipyard.

The Brilliant Pebble is one of the current Provincial
fleet elements protecting Glisten.  built out of slag
the tunneling that constantly is generated by the tunneling
that shapes the belt cities.

With 6 g acceleration, a 100 ton Particle Accelerator bay,
and very powerful computers the Pebble is a danger even to
capital ships, while it's armored rocky hull, back up computers,
marine contingent, and frozen watch render it a tenacious
scrapper

Ship: Glisten RX11-113
Class: Brilliant Pebble
Type: Monitor
Architect: jml
Tech Level: 15

USP
         PP-A8068J2-B00400-00906-0 MCr 1,134.444 1.6 KTons
Bat Bear                     1 1   Crew: 57
Bat                          1 1   TL: 15

Cargo: 44.000 Frozen Watch (x2) Fuel: 256.000 EP: 128.000 Agility: 1 Ships
Troops: 2 Marines: 25
Craft: 1 x 40T Pinnace
Backups: 1 x Model/8fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 11.344   Cost in Quantity: MCr 907.555


Detailed Description

TONNAGE
1,600.000 tons standard, 22,400.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configeration

CREW
11 Officers, 21 Ratings, 25 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-8, 128.000 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9fib Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/8fib Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 100-ton bay, 6 Hardpoints

ARMARMENT
1 100-ton Particle Accelerator Bay (Factor-9), 6 Triple Missile Turrets in 1
Battery (Factor-6)

DEFENCES
Nuclear Damper (Factor-4), Armoured Hull (Factor-8)

CRAFT
1 40.000 ton Pinnace (Crew of 2)

FUEL
32.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 60 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
32.0 Staterooms, 60 Low Berths, 44.000 Tons Cargo

COST
MCr 1,145.788 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 11.344), MCr 907.555 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
128 Weeks Singly, 103 Weeks in Quantity


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 03:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun 20 02:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
In-Reply-To: <20020620010813.1D17E27B62@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17KyOe-0005Si-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

> Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> 
> >     "...being able to read and fully understand a 500 page novel in
> >     half  an hour,..."
> > 
> >     Literature is meant to be savored not hoovered.
> 
> Something that always made me chuckle when I saw the Evelyn Wood Speed
> Reading ads showing people reading War and Peace in a half hour...
> 
> Make that read and fully understand 500 pages of 'The Journal of
> Biological Chemistry' in half an hour, now we're getting somewhere...

True, that would be even better.

> >     "...do tensor calculus in your head,..."
> > 
> >     Granted.
> 
> Why? If you're an engineer, you're going to check your figures on
> paper anyway (you'll get real antsy if you can't, it's been drilled and
> drilled into you), and if you're doing it off the cuff, you're not
> bothering with calculations, you'll just use the 'That looks
> /long/strong/heavy/light enough to me!' process, and simply add more
> duct tape as needed...
> 
> Wanting to do complex calculations in the head always struck me as
> like the teachers who objected to us using calculators, by intoning
> 'What if you were stuck on a desert island without one, then?'

Hmm, perhaps a difference is disciplines, when I was a physics 
major as an undergrad, one of the things that set the hard science 
folk apart was the ability to do lots of calculations in your head.  
doing it that way first, mean that if you screwed up with the 
calculators you knew that you had done so (my friend who 
accidentally punched the pi key instead of the equals sign on 
question on a Quantum Physics test amused the instructor no end 
(since we all showed our work, it was obvious what he had done).  
Also, doing something in your head if notably faster than on a 
calculator (at least for me).  Besides, I loathe doing math on paper, 
I've trained myself to do lots of stuff in my head simply because I 
don't like having to write down all the numbers and mess with 
them.  Being able to do *all* math in my head would be even 
better.  

> >     "...and *never* forget *anything*."
> > 
> >  Now THAT sounds like hell on Earth.  Without faulty 
> > memories and the passage of time, how can there be 
> > forgiveness?  Or personal peace?  If you remember every faux 
> > pas, every slight, every bad thing that ever happened to you
> > both perfectly and accurately, you will go mad.
> 
> Well said.
> 
> Besides, a very wise professor of mine once told our class that it 
> is far easier to remember where to look up specific facts than to
> remember specific facts themselves...which I have expanded, in 
> modern days, to 'He who has Google needs not possess a 
> functional memory!'
> :->
> 
> Which is a damned good thing for someone like myself with a 
> terminal ( and probably congenital, but I can't remember ;-) case 
> of CRS.

I simple don't agree.  I have a very good memory, but there is *so* 
much that I've forgotten.  Since I've not used it in almost 20 years 
I've forgotten most math above really basic calculus, I'm amazingly 
rusty in physics beyond elementary mechanics, and my 
knowledge of chemistry is largely gone.  I think of all the history 
and anthro texts that I can only remember small portions of.  All 
that knowledge has been *stolen* from me by time and I don't want 
to lose any more knowledge.  Being able to edit my memory would 
be nice, but honestly my memory is essentially my definition of 
who I am, so I really I don't want to ever give *any* of it up.  Then 
again, I know that most people don't feel the same way.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 03:41:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun 20 02:41:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <20020620010813.1D17E27B62@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17KyOi-0005Si-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> on 6/20/02 2:52 AM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com
> wrote:
> 
> > Very true, and in the case of China what they have done will most
> > certainly reduce their population, both because they have
> > significantly reduced average family size, and because the rate of
> > female infanticide is high enough that the sex ratios in much of
> > rural China are now really skewed.  I'm honestly fascinated by what
> > the social dynamics there will be like in a decade or so, when a
> > generation of rural children where men significantly outnumber women
> > grow up.
> 
> Isn't this also happening in India, that is, using ultrasound and
> other technologies to preferentially select for males?  Going to make
> dating interesting in about 15 years.

True, but I don't believe the sex ratios are screwed up to 
*anywhere* near the same degree.  I've heard rumors that in parts 
of rural china, the sex rations are in excess of 5 to 1 (someone 
please correct me if you have more accurate data).  Not a place I'd 
wish on *anyone*, but fascinating nonetheless.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 03:43:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun 20 02:43:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
In-Reply-To: <20020620010813.1D17E27B62@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17KyOk-0005Si-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: sneadj@mindspring.com
> 
>      "However, I'm hoping (and expecting) that our future looks an
>      awful
> lot more like GURPS Transhuman Space, because I *really* like the idea
> of being an immortal,  hyperintelligent posthuman being."
> 
> Mr. Snead,
> 
> Oddly enough, I found the G:Transhuman Space book both frightening and 
> unsettling.  Sure, there were certain gimmicks I would personally
> desire, but the thought of genetically designed, creche raised, single
> purpose, bioroid slaves (for that's what they are, no more, no less)
> left me with a very queasy feeling.

It doesn't really seem any worse than many of the real-life horrors 
now going on in SE Asia or the PRC, then again most good SF is 
is social commentary.

In the future, as in both the present and the past, whether we live 
with wonders or horrors depends not upon our technology but upon 
our choices in how we use the technology we have.

Then again, you also get odd issues like being able to create 
sentient slaves who are honestly happy and fulfilled by being 
slaves, and would not want to be free.  I'm not certain that creating 
such beings is wrong, but it is most certainly complex and 
potentially disturbing.  Still, I don't think it's even remotely worse 
than much that has already been done by one group of humans to 
another and it arguably could be considered quite humane (or not).  

>      "What's not to like about living thousands of years,..."
> 
>      Granted.

I consider sequoias and bristlecone pines to have reasonable life 
spans.  In my book ~80 is *way* too short for any useful purpose. 

>      "...being able to read and fully understand a 500 page novel in
>      half an hour,..."
> 
>      Literature is meant to be savored not hoovered.

Most certainly, but with the ability to change the setting on the 
processor speed in one's brain, you could savor a wonderful novel 
in half an hour and still have time to read lots of others... so many 
novels, so little time...

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 03:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Thu Jun 20 02:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <E17KyOi-0005Si-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEAGHOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

:
:


True, but I don't believe the sex ratios are screwed up to 
*anywhere* near the same degree.  I've heard rumors that in parts 
of rural china, the sex rations are in excess of 5 to 1 (someone 
please correct me if you have more accurate data).  Not a place I'd 
wish on *anyone*, but fascinating nonetheless.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

China

Sex ratio:
at birth: 1.09 male(s)/female 

under 15 years: 1.1 male(s)/female 

15-64 years: 1.06 male(s)/female 

65 years and over: 0.89 male(s)/female 

total population: 1.06 male(s)/female (2001 est.) 

India

Sex ratio:
at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female 

under 15 years: 1.06 male(s)/female 

15-64 years: 1.07 male(s)/female 

65 years and over: 1.03 male(s)/female 

total population: 1.07 male(s)/female (2001 est.) 

and for good measure

Pakistan
Sex ratio:
at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female 

under 15 years: 1.06 male(s)/female 

15-64 years: 1.05 male(s)/female 

65 years and over: 0.96 male(s)/female 

total population: 1.05 male(s)/female (2001 est.) 

source
CIA Worldbook
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/menugeo.html#i

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 04:07:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun 20 03:07:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Query
In-Reply-To: <20020620032309.5FC91279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17Kyq1-0005bW-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> Frankly, there are a few things I'd prefer to forget. The rest of it
> sounds like it has some potential (although I can't for the life of me
> figure out why I would want to do tensor calculus in my head), but I
> don't think our future is going to resemble G:THS any more than it
> will resemble GT or any other game or novel. The predictive value of
> SF is (to paraphrase David Brin, I believe) about the same level of
> accuracy as weather forcasting -- but prediction isn't the point of
> the exercise.

I also agree with Brin, I'm guessing there will be points of similarity, 
but that no SF will look particularly like the future.  

If nothing else, I'm expecting tech to advance faster than most SF 
is willing to predict, and I'll be shocked (if also fairly pleased) if 
there are ever human (or even posthuman) colonies anywhere 
beyond Near Earth Orbit.
 
> That said, I believe the future will be d*mned interesting, and I hope
> I make it long enough to sample some of that immortality of which you
> speak. I have no clue what the future holds, and I await it with
> considerable excitement.

I agree completely.  I'm a decade younger than you, and with luck 
they'll manage to keep us both alive long enough to enjoy some of 
the upcoming fun.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 04:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun 20 03:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL-9 American Heavy SDB - SENTRY Class
In-Reply-To: <20020620032309.5FC91279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17Kyq6-0005bW-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> wrote:

> At 11:06 AM 6/19/2002 -0500, Roseberry wrote:
> > >Ship: Edward Straker
> >Would this be Colonel Straker from the old UFO tv series?
> >I liked that show.
> 
> Ooooohhhh...serious flashbacks here, uniforms for female personnel at
> Moonbase Alpha, submarines with Jet fighters on their snout, Mobiles,
> cool gull wing door cars....

Yep, I *loved* that show as a kid, I even own all of the UFO novels.  
That could make a seriously fun RPG setting, I'd likely use 
Conspiracy X (which isn't terribly different from UFO in some ways), 
or if I wanted to be fairly wacky, I go with White Wolf's wonderful 
pulp RPG Adventure! 

OTOH, I also loved Space 1999, but am *far* from certain you 
could do that well as a fun RPG.  In retrospect that was a *really* 
cheesy show.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 04:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Thu Jun 20 03:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #648 - 24 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020620010813.1D17E27B62@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020620010813.1D17E27B62@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <9ua3hukjp5pabi2v048u3likj83lssq4dm@4ax.com>

On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 18:06:03 -0700, you wrote:

>A truly advanced technological society will afford me a small device 
>that can whisper people's names in my ear, remind me of appointments, 
>(and call the appointees when I'm running late), provide me with the 
>name of that novel that's on the tip of my tongue, an obscure fact I 
>suddenly need to settle a bet at the Club, the hours of a restaurant I 
>have a sudden hankering for, or any of a million other things a 
>preturnaturally knowlegable and infinitely obsessive personal secretary 
>will provide oneself, without the messy problem of finding and keeping a 
>human one.

Which devices John Brunner called 'olivers' for reasons unknown in 'The
Shockwave Rider' - which, while it portrayed an ... interesting ...
society, is more dystopic than utopic.
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 04:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Thu Jun 20 03:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #649 - 24 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020620032309.5FC91279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020620032309.5FC91279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <7fb3hu8ognji8b8i1g75s7hnbiio14ufj1@4ax.com>

On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 20:19:03 -0700, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>That said, I believe the future will be d*mned interesting, and I hope I make 
>it long enough to sample some of that immortality of which you speak. I have 
>no clue what the future holds, and I await it with considerable excitement.

An apropos quote, whether from Heinlein or The Shockwave Rider I don't
remember, but...

"The future always comes too soon and in the wrong order."


--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 04:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Thu Jun 20 03:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Q-ship versus Corsairs
In-Reply-To: <20020620101114.6783527BED@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020620101114.6783527BED@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <8pc3huc8rl7svuiabsu10636sh5eefg92j@4ax.com>

On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 03:07:03 -0700, "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Summary:

>	Although they didn&#8364;&#8482;t know what the Kachina was, and that&#8364;&#8482;s what makes 
>Q-ships so much fun, the Vargr could have lived to raid another day if they 
>had immediately broke off their attempt to board the &#8364;&#339;Zeitlin Zephyr&#8364;.  A 
>big agility rating and a single computer level ensured that the free trader 
>couldn&#8364;&#8482;t defend itself against the corsairs.  A huge computer differential 
>let the Kachina damage both corsairs despite their agility.  The Imperial 
>also rolled rather well, getting a 2 on 2D6 in the third round to take out 
>V2&#8364;&#8482;s jump drive.

>	My homebrewed &#8364;&#339;flexible battery&#8364; rules could have improved both the 
>corsairs and free trader&#8364;&#8482;s chances.

Larsen - would you be so kind as to do a formal writeup of your homebrew
'flexible battery' rule?  Sounds like a candidate for Doing It My Way as
well as for the interest and edification of the list.

Also, once you've done so, it would be interesting to see how it would have
affected this particular encounter.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 05:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Thu Jun 20 04:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
Message-ID: <OF7E6C22E9.F5D659AF-ON42256BDE.003C9AA1@ko.com>

"> However, I'm hoping (and expecting) that our future looks an awful
> lot more like GURPS Transhuman Space, because I *really* like
> the idea of being an immortal,  hyperintelligent posthuman being.
> What not to like about living thousands of years, being able to read
> and fully understand a 500 page novel in half an hour, do tensor
> calculus in your head,

What he said ............ :)"


To misquote Woody Allen: "I don't want to be immortalised through my works;
I want to be immortalised by not dying."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 05:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Thu Jun 20 04:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
Message-ID: <OF9ADEC1EF.477B4F46-ON42256BDE.003D3EEC@ko.com>

"A pocket major domo!  I want one of those!"

Mr Whipsnade

This sounds a lot like one of your toasters.

Regards

Clint Rynners


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 05:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Thu Jun 20 04:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] HGS test request
Message-ID: <3D1263DD.20767.58DC05B@localhost>

Hi, I notice a lot of people using HGS. Now could I possibly ask for a little 
help. I've had two error reports and I'd like to know if anyone else has seen 
this behaviour

1) With the 1.14 build, it throws up a date error at start and crashes

2) Again with the 1.14 build, it refuses to run on Win XP

Thanks


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 07:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Jun 20 06:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:Another goddamned canon question and ship submission
Message-ID: <3D11D139.7EE82EC2@mail.cswnet.com>

>Ship: Curtis LeMay
>Class: Boeing Starfortress

>>>Type: Cruiser<<<

Somehow I don't think the good General LeMay would have approved this;
sounds to navy like. Maybe something more like Interstellar Strategic
Bomber. Something big, wordy, and menacing sounding. Alternatly, we
could use the old American COACC type: B52. 

"We're gonna bomb the Vilani back to the Stone Age." ;)

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 07:22:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Jun 20 06:22:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo Update Revised
Message-ID: <3D11D611.73133917@mail.cswnet.com>

My apologies to any who panicked from the last listing;
I missed one of the digests. Here is the corrected listing
as of Digest#650

1. Cougar class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
2. Valuta class Assault Landing Ship--John Kwon
3. DBZ class Heavy Attack Scout--Dan Roseberry
4. Cuda class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
5. Cobra class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
6. Carronade class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
7. Chukkar class Merchant--John Kwon
8. Pell class Cargo Ship--John-Martin
9. Juniper class Missile Corvette--Anthony Colosetti
10. Ferdinand class Exploration Cruiser--Alan Bradley
11. Moronica Sisters Type A1.7725 Merchant--Alan Spik
12. Makiidi class Bulk Trader--Stephen Tempest
13. Shambieau class trader--Nick
14. Chauchat class Escort--Leslie Bates
15. Oldendorf class Tramp Trader--Dan Roseberry
16. Girls Best Friend [TL11 Seeker class]--Dan Roseberry
17. Minnie Me [Micro Trader class]--Dan Roseberry
18. Sinzsha Maru [Sonzsha Maru class Ore carrier]--Dan Roseberry
19. April Hare [TypeR2 Large Merchant]--Mike West
20. Harvest Class Merchant/LASH--John Kwon
21. Fleetwing Fast Cargo Courier--John Snead
22. Azure Swift Fast Passenger Courier--John Snead
23. Nightfall Frontier Fast Courier--John Snead
24. Stormhawk class Q-ship Escort--Shadowcat
25. "Space Family Dancourt" Modular Habitat--Timothy Little
26. Ides of the March Armed Liner--David Shayne
27. Hughes Racing Yacht--Anthony Colosetti
28. Grote Clan Trader--Larsen E. Whipsnade
29. The Yugobox--Bruce Johnson
30. Gabriel Missile Corvette--Leslie Bates
31. Shashkitar Battle Cruiser--Dan Roseberry
32. Wee Willie modified Grote Class--Larsen Whipsnade
33. Pickwick LBL-3D class--Larsen Whipsnade
34. SM-J-008 Kachina class--Larsen Whipsnade
35. Straker, Sentry class--Leslie Bates
36. Kamakaze, Mitsubibhi Wind class--Leslie Bates
37. Lucky Buck Mining Processor--Jeffrey Greenly
38. Random Walk, LRSV 772 class--Walt Smith
39. SUV--Stephen Tempest
40. Curtis LeMay, Boeing Starfortress class--Leslie Bates
41. Paladin, Northrup-Grumman Skybolt--Leslie Bates
42. Rimfire, Cecil Rhodes class--John-Martin
43. Xena, Aerospatiale Amazone class--Leslie Bates
44. Greek Fire, Openhiemer class--John-Martin
45. Glisten RX11-113, Brilliant Pebble class--John-Martin

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 07:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Jun 20 06:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #648 - 24 msgs
Message-ID: <F183EaJswFCHOzyfyz50000002a@hotmail.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:
>To me, putting the starports on the ground or in low orbit and needing
>maneuvering thrusters to get there seems somewhat akin to building
>ocean ports 100 kilometres inland and putting wheels on all the ships.

One possible reason: if you put your important infrastructure
at or outside the 100D limit, then an enemy commerce raider
can jump to it, nuke it, and jump out before your defenses
can react.  Put it inside the 100D, and your SDB's and/or COACC
could make such a manuever a little more suicidal, and thus
less likely to happen.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 08:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Jun 20 07:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #648 - 24 msgs
Message-ID: <200206201422.IWF00336@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Walt Smith" says
>One possible reason: if you put your important infrastructure
>at or outside the 100D limit, then an enemy commerce raider
>can jump to it, nuke it, and jump out before your defenses
>can react.  Put it inside the 100D, and your SDB's and/or 
>COACC could make such a manuever a little more suicidal, and 
>thus less likely to happen.
>

In RL, the port of Dharan has huge port facilities, but the 
supertankers *never* come in port.  They all dock at the 
pumping head miles out in the Persian Gulf.  You might think 
that the pumping head is vulnerable, but there's a strong 
Navy presence.  It's far less cost for a tanker to take on 
oil at the station than to maneuver into port (they can fit, 
but it takes a long time to perform the necessary 
maneuvers).  There's also risk involved with docking at a 
pier with a large vessel (the risk of collision with other 
ships is higher).

In Traveller, there's a risk associated with liftoff and 
landing.  The potential for engine failure, the experience of 
the pilot with atmospheric re-entry and landing, etc.  And if 
something goes wrong, say, the maneuver drive or powerplant 
craps out on takeoff or landing, the potential for 
catastrophe is large, in proportion to the size of the ship.

I can't see really large regular cargo ships taking off and 
landing from the surface.  The time wasted doing this could 
be better spent discharging and taking on lighters.  Smaller 
ships, such as free traders, could waste time landing, since 
they're planning on arranging cargo (for at least a week).  
If a LASH ship had lighters waiting on arrival, it could 
discharge its cargo in 20 minutes (dispersed structure), take 
on the new cargo and fuel in 20 minutes (assuming the fuel is 
in preloaded fuel pods), and jump out.

In Traveller, there's nothing to stop you from building a 
port that has accompanying battlestations.  The SDBs could be 
on patrol nearby, making a surprise attack costly.  Also, if 
the port was large enough, it would be difficult to really 
put out of operation.

There would be regular cargo transport from the planet's 
surface, as well as from low orbit stations.

There's a reason that in my rodeo entries I have two ships 
that use containers/barges for cargo transport, and a 
different ship intended to land bulk cargo on the ground.  
The ship that lands has a military reason to transport cargo 
to the ground.  The other ships have an economic reason to 
rapidly discharge and take on cargo.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 08:28:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Jun 20 07:28:06 2002
Subject: [TML] SPA NOTICE [and Rodeo Update]
Message-ID: <3D11E570.5E263A00@mail.cswnet.com>

Larsen Whipsnade, space cowboy, writes:
> WOO-WEE!  Thirty Seven entries so far and it ain't even July yet!  
>Mebbe we should think of paring a week or two of'n the contest if we >get near 75?
>     Watta you think, pard?

hehehehehe. I told you that you created a monster.

Current pace is 7.5 posts per day. We had 9 per day during the  weekend.
Weekday pace is 6.75, however if you throw the first friday out, weekday
pace is 9. Last post was 45, so if the pace continues, say about late
Sunday or Monday afternoon CST we should hit 75 posts.

Yeah, definetely pare off 2 weeks. Otherwise the Rodeo turns into a
stampede. We may have a stampede anyway. If we go with the slow pace,
[assuming nothing more gets posted today] I get 122 posts, fast pace
[again assuming nothing more gets posted today] I get 135 posts, as of
23:59 on June 30. I'm assuming that Midnight June 30 would be the new
cutoff point. That would make July 15 the last voting day. We'll need to
make an official announcement of the time change.

As for voting, what are your thoughts? Shall we do it like the npc
contest [win, place, show, with favorite categories]? IIRC, I had a
point system running W=2 P=1 S=.5 .  

----------------------------------------------------------

Who's building boats:
As of digest#650
About 1/4 [11] of the posts so far come from the Neo-Minneapolis
Shipyards on Scandia/Solrim, operated by Leslie Bates. I'm a distant
2nd, with 6 posts. We have a few people together with 4 and 3 posts a
piece. The real winner is Andrew Moffatt-Vallance, whos High Guard
Shipyard program seems to have been instrumental in this Rodeo. 
>>>salute<<< If such a program shows up for the GT folks, things could get really scary. Also, a big >>>salute<<< to the guys that posted Book2 ships. Seeing the Book2 ships is sorta like seeing the tall ships of old times. It brings back fond memories. Finally, a big big big >>>salute<<< to everyone who made or will make at least one posting. Your keeping the TML flame alive!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 08:32:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Jun 20 07:32:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22A6F@USCHM203>

	In some parts of rural China, the ratio is expected to reach upwards
of 120 to 130 men per women. In a decade or so (can't remember the exact
quote, either 10 or 20 years) there will be some 40 million young adult men
in China with practically no hope of finding a mate. Also, even now women in
China are becoming far more picky about their husbands. Arranged marriages
are going by the wayside, and men without the requisite wealth are out of
the loop.
	As mentioned earlier on the list, kidnappings, luring of foreign
brides, and other such unsavory practices are on the rise. Some commentators
and researchers think China might pick a fight with a neighbor just to keep
this surplus population busy.
 	The use of sonograms for purposes of gender selection is illegal in
China, but it is obvious that it is either unenforceable or simply being
ignored.
	The Chinese government is aware of this problem, but how they hope
to deal with it, or if they even are capable of dealing with it, remains to
be seen. It will certainly be interesting (and perhaps not in a good way) to
see where this unintended result of centralized birth control takes China.
	

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 08:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Jun 20 07:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Commdots
Message-ID: <F186aVj9ME2VPwHsTpY00003717@hotmail.com>

Here's a bit from the BBC...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_2055000/2055654.stm

Some students have created a "concept device" of a cell
phone that would fit inside a tooth, and could be implanted
during routine dental surgery.  No details were provided
regarding power, range, reception or control.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet



_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 08:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Jun 20 07:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Technology Marches On: Tooth Phone
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1024584795.0.06721100@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

British engineers have invented a cellphone that can be implanted in a human tooth.

The full story is at:
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/BackPage/reuters20020619_54.html

What I really find interesting about this is the possibility of using it in conjunction with the various eye displays <http://www.spie.org/web/oer/september/sep97/Retinal.html> and Objective Force Warrior technology <http://www.techtv.com/news/culture/story/0,24195,3376362,00.html> under development.

Combat Armor/Battledress is getting closer and closer!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 09:31:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Thu Jun 20 08:31:12 2002
Subject: [TML] HGS test request
References: <3D1263DD.20767.58DC05B@localhost>
Message-ID: <004701c2186f$2dde8730$1c577b83@Gideon>

> 1) With the 1.14 build, it throws up a date error at start and crashes
>
> 2) Again with the 1.14 build, it refuses to run on Win XP
>
> Thanks

I use 1.13 just fine on my laptop running XP.  What is the significant
change between 1.13 and 1.14?

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 09:38:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Jun 20 08:38:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Yet another Jupiter-like planet found
Message-ID: <200206201535.IWH03015@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

The second one in a week...

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/19/science/19PLAN.html

Kinda makes you wonder if the LBBs weren't that far off.  
Does Loren know if it was one person or many who did the star 
system generation piece (or, better, who did it over time 
across the various incarnations)?
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 09:47:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Jun 20 08:47:11 2002
Subject: [TML] FFW Forces
In-Reply-To: <20020617192043.10924.qmail@web13907.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020617190206.A84B627B13@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020620083148.009fd6e0@mindspring.com>

At 08:20 PM 6/17/02 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I don't have FFW, but want to know what forces are
>available to the various sides.
>
>FWIW, using the slightly modified GF system (all
>BE's/10, to bring into line with RW, and multiplied by
>population multiplier, very liberal "taint" policy) I
>get the following imperial forces:
>
>Imperial (No. of Divisions)
>491 Divisions = 19 Field Armies and interface units

(Catching up) Is this number of local units, or Imperial?  Some of those 
numbers look awful high.  Imperial units are 5% of the base BE (population 
and TL, modified by taint). Also, the number of BE's available for Imperial 
service is cut by 10% for each TL below 11.  A place like Louzy/Jewell has 
a huge PDF, but relatively few recruits that meet the standards of the 
Unified Army.

If those are the local forces, only 10% will be available for off-world 
operations.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 09:51:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Hopper)
Date: Thu Jun 20 08:51:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Rules of War applications
In-Reply-To: <004701c2186f$2dde8730$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <20020620154447.777.qmail@web13303.mail.yahoo.com>

In the OTU are Meson Guns considered to be weapons of
mass destruction? Are they then considered to be
violating the Imperial Rules of War if used? (I'm
exploring the possibilities of allowing PCs temporary
use of a Meson Gun). 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 09:53:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Jun 20 08:53:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
In-Reply-To: <20020619213616.2BFE827990@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206191424000.28965-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020620084102.009fe750@mindspring.com>

At 04:36 PM 6/19/02 -0500, you wrote:
>I think selective forgetting would almost be a prerequsite for being
>an immortal, or even a very long lived mortal.  Slow devouring and
>processing of that 500 page novel is a pleasure, not something you
>need to do in half and hour, watching and enjoying a movie like it was
>the first time, every time, is a pleasure. If you never forget
>anything, eventually nothing is new or novel anymore...and that would
>be dreary.

Ref: Niven's _A Teardrop Falls_, one of my favorite Berserker stories.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 09:57:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Jun 20 08:57:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
In-Reply-To: <E17Kmpx-0002tK-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
References: <20020619153305.AB91D27BC1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020620083900.009f1080@mindspring.com>

At 02:17 AM 6/20/02 -0700, you wrote:
>However, I'm hoping (and expecting) that our future looks an awful
>lot more like GURPS Transhuman Space, because I *really* like
>the idea of being an immortal,  hyperintelligent posthuman being.
>What not to like about living thousands of years, being able to read
>and fully understand a 500 page novel in half an hour, do tensor
>calculus in your head, and *never* forget *anything*.

I just want out of my body.  Slap my mind in a ship, and send me to the 
stars!  I would, of course, name the vessel "The Grateful Dead."


-- 

Douglas E. Berry           gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"That's just 'mostly dead.'  What we are concerned
with here is 'Pining for the Fjords' dead."   - Mark Urbin


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 10:02:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Jun 20 09:02:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
In-Reply-To: <F74HoRR0mO8QTd8Di3e000264f0@hotmail.com>
References: <F74HoRR0mO8QTd8Di3e000264f0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m34rfyhrpa.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
> 
>      For me it was twigging my English teachers about how they
> dismembered literature.  You know they drill; "The author says this,
> but really means that", "The parsnip is a Christ figure", and all
> that rubbish.  As if authors sit down at their typewriter with a
> stack of 3x5 cards listing all the allusions, symbols, and whatnot
> they're going to stuff into their book.

Actually, I always wanted to commission a series of twelve paintings,
divided into groupings of four (for the classical elements earth,
water, ait & fire) and three (for the alchemical elements salt,
sulphur & mercury), portraying a chronology of some sort, and
jam-packed with symbolism and suchlike.

But I am perhaps an oddity.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The original Constitutional purpose for an armed citizenry...is to
intimidate the government.                         --L. Neil Smith

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 10:05:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Jun 20 09:05:36 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:Another goddamned canon question and ship
 submission
In-Reply-To: <3D11D139.7EE82EC2@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020620104646.0096c100@minn.net>

At 07:57 AM 6/20/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>Ship: Curtis LeMay
>>Class: Boeing Starfortress
>
>>>>Type: Cruiser<<<
>
>Somehow I don't think the good General LeMay would have approved this;
>sounds to navy like. Maybe something more like Interstellar Strategic
>Bomber. Something big, wordy, and menacing sounding. Alternatly, we
>could use the old American COACC type: B52. 
>
>"We're gonna bomb the Vilani back to the Stone Age." ;)

I beg to differ sir.

From page 4 of Traveller Alien Module 6; Solomani:

"It took several years before an US Space Force team based on Luna..."

I assumed that the USSF was merged into the unified Terran Navy after the
First Interstellar War.


Les


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 10:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Jun 20 09:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] HGS test request
In-Reply-To: <004701c2186f$2dde8730$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <20020620155143.E51A227AA8@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/20/02 at 11:28 AM,  "Anthony Colosetti" <acoloset@kent.edu>
said:


>> 1) With the 1.14 build, it throws up a date error at start and crashes
>>
>> 2) Again with the 1.14 build, it refuses to run on Win XP
>>
>> Thanks

>I use 1.13 just fine on my laptop running XP.  What is the
>significant change between 1.13 and 1.14?

I am able to get 1.13 to run uncer XP pro, too, but I'm also the one
that can't get 1.14 to load. I get a kernal32.dll error every time.  

Being unable to run 1.14, I can't report on its features. <g>

Andrew, I do have a question, though. Once upon a time, I was playing
with HGS and I'm sure there was a "T20" compatability mode in there.
That seems to have disappeared from the 1.13 version that I can get to
run. Assuming I'm not dreaming, what happened?

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 10:20:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Jun 20 09:20:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <F12NAELA86oxd8BTYC10000001d@hotmail.com>
References: <F12NAELA86oxd8BTYC10000001d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3znxqgc8z.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
> 
> > Take a look at the history of the Wild West sometime.  It ought to
> > be something like that.  A lot of young men and not much else.
> > Lots of violence and unspent aggression.
> 
>      Interesting analogy, sir.

Not my own, I'm afraid.  Based on some articles I read quite awhile
ago.  The thesis is that anytime men--especially young men--greatly
outnumber women things fly rather badly out of control.  Heving seen
my brothers in a Jesuit high school, I can see how that might
happen...

> Complete with bride trains and ships you think?

Fairly likely, I should think.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`If you don't smoke and you're in a bar, don't complain about other
people who happen to be smoking, because, virtuous friend, you are in a
bar.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 10:23:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Jun 20 09:23:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Roseberry's Rodeo Entry#7
Message-ID: <3D11FC4E.F4B47802@mail.cswnet.com>

Ship: Der Schwanstuka
Class: Der Schwanstuka
Type: Strike Cruiser
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 13

USP
         CS-P3447G3-053307-66R38-0 MCr 57,997.466 69.247 KTons
Bat Bear             5   4 3411Y   Crew: 892
Bat                  6   5 4511Z   TL: 13

Cargo: 352.930 Passengers: 1 Fuel: 32,546.090 EP: 4,847.290 Agility: 4
Shipboard Security Detail: 69 Marines: 200 Drop Capsules: 200 Pulse
Lasers
Craft: 20 x 95T TL13 Shuttle
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Bridge 1 x Factor 2 Nuclear Damper 1 x Factor 2 Meson
Screen
Substitutions: Y = 40 Z = 50

Architects Fee: MCr 572.875   Cost in Quantity: MCr 46,539.973


Detailed Description

HULL
69,247.000 tons standard, 969,458.000 cubic meters, Cylinder
Configuration

CREW
62 Officers, 630 Ratings, 200 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-4, 4G Manuever, Power plant-7, 4,847.290 EP, Agility 4

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/7fib Computer
1 Backup Bridge

HARDPOINTS
Spinal Mount, 6 100-ton bays, 55 50-ton bays, 42 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
Particle Accelerator Spinal Mount (Factor-R), 1 100-ton Meson Bay
(Factor-3), 50 50-ton Missile Bays (Factor-8), 5 50-ton Plasma Gun Bays
(Factor-6), 30 Triple Pulse Laser Turrets organised into 4 Batteries
(Factor-6)

DEFENCES
5 100-ton Repulsor Bays (Factor-7), 12 Triple Sandcaster Turrets
organised into 6 Batteries (Factor-5), Nuclear Damper (Factor-3), Meson
Screen (Factor-3)
1 Nuclear Damper Backup (Factor-2), 1 Meson Screen Backup (Factor-2)

CRAFT
20 95.000 ton TL13 Shuttles (Crew of 2, Cost of MCr 35.500)

FUEL
32,546.090 Tons Fuel (4 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
450.0 Staterooms, 200 Drop Capsule Launchers, 1 Middle Passenger,
352.930 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 57,860.341 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 572.875), MCr
45,829.973 in Quantity, plus MCr 710.000 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
194 Weeks Singly, 155 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
Built at Strouden. Used along the Imperial border to scare Sword Worlds
vessels.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Ship: TL 13 Shuttle
Class: TL 13 Shuttle
Type: Shuttle Craft
Architect: Standard
Tech Level: 13

USP
         YS-0203301-000000-00003-0 MCr 35.500 95 Tons
Bat Bear                                 1   Crew: 2
Bat                                         1   TL: 13

Cargo: 0.350 Fuel: 32.850 EP: 2.850 Agility: 3
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.355   Cost in Quantity: MCr 28.400


Detailed Description

HULL
95.000 tons standard, 1,330.000 cubic meters, Cone Configuration

CREW
Pilot, 1 Other Crew

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 3G Manuever, Power plant-3, 2.850 EP, Agility 3

AVIONICS
Bridge, No Computer Installed

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMAMENT
1 Triple Missile Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-3)

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
32.850 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance, plus 30.000 tons
of additional fuel)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
59 Acceleration Couches, 0.350 Ton Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 35.855 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.355), MCr 28.400 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
37 Weeks Singly, 29 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
Craft carries 30dt extra fuel for tankage.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 10:26:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Jun 20 09:26:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
In-Reply-To: <F183ZbLAX3cf3ednHM30000005d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020620084351.00a05070@mindspring.com>

At 10:33 PM 6/19/02 +0000, you wrote:
>     "...and *never* forget *anything*."
>
>     Now THAT sounds like hell on Earth.  Without faulty memories and the 
> passage of time, how can there be forgiveness?  Or personal peace?  If 
> you remember every faux pas, every slight, every bad thing that ever 
> happened to you both perfectly and accurately, you will go mad.
>     I'm reminded of a line in one of H. Beam Piper's books.  A local is 
> watching Federation contragrav lorries flit about, automatic weapons 
> fire, huge globular starships lift to orbit, along with a 1001 other 
> wonders and remarks; "I'm glad I am an old man, so I will not live to see 
> how much the world will change."

Laresen, with all due respect, there are three things I'd like to change 
about the damage cancer did to me.

Get rid of my epilepsy

Get my damn memory back

The third isn't any of your business unless you are an attractive woman or 
man with designs on my body.

I've though about this a great deal, and always thought that staying sane 
as an uploaded ghost would require some sort of environment that the ghost 
can understand.

Take for example my dream of being an exploratory starship.  I'd create 
several virtual rooms.  A bridge (pure classic Trek) a living room, other 
rooms as needed.  I would have an avatar, and several AI functions to 
provide me with opponents for games... (or other activities.)

As for my perfect memory; store it!  Have a library where everything is 
compartmentalized.  If I want to remember BayCon '98, I grab the handsome 
leather-bound volume and the program feeds me the information in 
pieces.  If I *need* to have instant recall, that can happen as well.

In my example, it would be a simple matter to slow my program down so  that 
the trip to Tau Ceti seems to take a week. Automated systems bring me up to 
full speed if anything goes wrong, and also when we reach the 
heliopause.  I then spend a pleasant fifty years exploring the system 
before moving on.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 10:28:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Jun 20 09:28:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020619215602.00cb5958@192.168.0.1>
References: <RELAY39vXsFFsAitVGe00097cb3@relay3.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020620085652.009f4670@mindspring.com>

At 09:56 PM 6/19/02 -0400, you wrote:
>At 04:34 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, markc@peak.org wrote:
>>Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:
>> > Does making a Famille Spofulam Supplement count?  >:D
>>[URL removed to save lives and preserve property]
>>BAD JESSE! NO BELT-FED!!
>
>Man! That's harsh!

I forget, have you ever seen Jesse around automatic weapons?  He's like a 
kid on Christmas waiting to open his presents.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 10:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Jun 20 09:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Where is HGS 1.14?
Message-ID: <200206201627.IWJ01331@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I have 1.13.  Where can I download 1.14?
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 10:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Thu Jun 20 09:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
References: <F183ZbLAX3cf3ednHM30000005d@hotmail.com> <3D110E1B.8080008@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <14d401c21879$7ac5ad80$1f9e15ac@warrior>

> 'He who has Google needs not possess a functional memory!' :->
>

I'm stealing this quote for my .sig :)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 10:41:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Jun 20 09:41:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3820@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

ROFL!!!  Those are pretty good too :)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Urbin [mailto:eclipse@urbin.net]
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 6:30 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator


...from my sig collection

"...a starship, a robot, two sex toys, and a gun: the raw, heady essence of 
interstellar civilization." -- Kenji Schwarz

A: "Are those battery-powered ben-wa balls?"
B: "No, it's a Sayat attack fleet."
C: "Same difference. Run away!"
-- Kenji Schwarz


Hmmm...I'm going to have follow up Jesse's Famille Spofulam Supplement with 
a few Sayat books...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication
                  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 10:44:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Jun 20 09:44:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020620085652.009f4670@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020619215602.00cb5958@192.168.0.1>
 <RELAY39vXsFFsAitVGe00097cb3@relay3.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020620113728.00982a80@minn.net>

At 08:57 AM 6/20/2002 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>>BAD JESSE! NO BELT-FED!!
>>
>>Man! That's harsh!
>
>I forget, have you ever seen Jesse around automatic weapons?  He's like a 
>kid on Christmas waiting to open his presents.

I know a retired special forces NCO who's that way.

I was showing him my rebuilt STG 58 (Austrian FAL on a DS Arms receiver)
when clicked the selector to auto and gave me THAT LOOK.


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 10:47:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Jun 20 09:47:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3821@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

<whimper!>

-----Original Message-----
From: markc@peak.org [mailto:markc@peak.org]
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 1:34 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator


Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:

> Does making a Famille Spofulam Supplement count?  >:D

[URL removed to save lives and preserve property]

BAD JESSE! NO BELT-FED!!

    - Mark C.





--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .

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TML@travellercentral.com
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 11:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Jun 20 10:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3822@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I can't help it!  They're too much fun :)    [when not being used to kill people that is ;) ]

-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Berry [mailto:gridlore@mindspring.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 8:58 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator


At 09:56 PM 6/19/02 -0400, you wrote:
>At 04:34 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, markc@peak.org wrote:
>>Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:
>> > Does making a Famille Spofulam Supplement count?  >:D
>>[URL removed to save lives and preserve property]
>>BAD JESSE! NO BELT-FED!!
>
>Man! That's harsh!

I forget, have you ever seen Jesse around automatic weapons?  He's like a 
kid on Christmas waiting to open his presents.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

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TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 11:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Jun 20 10:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <200206201706.IWJ08502@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"DeGraff, Jesse" says
>I can't help it!  They're too much fun :)    [when not being 
>used to kill people that is ;) ]
>

I used to think that way, until they decided to "retire" the 
LAW at Ft. Campbell in 1988.  Anyone on post was invited to 
come down to the range and fire off as many as you could to 
get rid of them (the AT4 was coming in).

I lost count...

I went every day until they were all gone.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 11:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Thu Jun 20 10:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo:  Zhodane Simmix Commando Intruder and Pilli Landing ship
In-Reply-To: <3D11FC4E.F4B47802@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMECAHOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Permission hereby granted to put these ships on the web

Thought I'd do some OP force ships.

Note, I see no reason why the Zho's use standard issue Imperial
small craft hence the Pilli Landers.

A primary Zhodane commando scout, the Simmix is designed to
spread terror and confusion in areas around an attack as well
as well as providing pathfinders for planetary invasions.
Any would be attacker will know that 120 commandos are carried
be the Simmix.  however even discounting this the Simmix carries
a 100 ton Meson bay plus lasers and is quite capable for it's
weight and lesser --then imperial -- TL

The Pilli is a standard Zhodane combat Lander. Capable of transporting
35 soldier to the ground, the Pilli, like most military transport can be
quickly adapted to land cargo, as well as other functions including CP,
and mobile workshops.


Ship: Averellie
Class: Simmix
Type: Strike Cruiser
Architect: jml
Tech Level: 14

USP
         TX-E644743-070000-70050-0 MCr 4,428.218 5.5 KTons
Bat Bear             1     1  1    Crew: 183
Bat                  1     1  1    TL: 14

Cargo: 278.000 Fuel: 2,585.000 EP: 385.000 Agility: 2 Ships Troops: 6
Marines: 120 Pulse Lasers
Craft: 4 x 45T Pilli Lander
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops
Backups: 1 x Model/4 Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 44.282   Cost in Quantity: MCr 3,542.574


Detailed Description

TONNAGE
5,500.000 tons standard, 77,000.000 cubic meters, Flatterned Sphere
Configeration

CREW
13 Officers, 50 Ratings, 120 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-4, 4G Manuever, Power plant-7, 385.000 EP, Agility 2

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/4 Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/4 Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 100-ton bay, 25 Hardpoints

ARMARMENT
1 100-ton Meson Bay (Factor-5), 20 Triple Pulse Laser Turrets in 1 Battery
(Factor-7)

DEFENCES
5 Triple Sandcaster Turrets in 1 Battery (Factor-7)

CRAFT
4 45.000 ton Pilli Landers (Crew of 2)

FUEL
2,255.000 Tons Fuel (4 parsecs jump and 30 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
100.0 Staterooms, 278.000 Tons Cargo

COST
MCr 4,472.500 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 44.282), MCr 3,542.574 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
150 Weeks Singly, 120 Weeks in Quantity

Ship: sj-999
Class: Pilli
Type: Lander
Architect: jml
Tech Level: 14

USP
         EX-0106601-400000-20002-0 MCr 34.450 45 Tons
Bat Bear                   1   1   Crew: 3
Bat                        1   1   TL: 14

Cargo: 6.000 Fuel: 2.700 EP: 2.700 Agility: 3 Pulse Lasers
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.345   Cost in Quantity: MCr 27.560


Detailed Description

TONNAGE
45.000 tons standard, 630.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configeration

CREW
Pilot, 2 Gunners

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-6, 2.700 EP, Agility 3

AVIONICS
No Bridge Installed, Model/1bis Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMARMENT
1 Triple Mixed Turret with: 1 Pulse Laser (Factor-2), 2 Missile Racks
(Factor-2).

DEFENCES
Armoured Hull (Factor-4)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
0.450 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 30 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
38 Acceleration Couches, 6.000 Tons Cargo

COST
MCr 34.795 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.345), MCr 27.560 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
22 Weeks Singly, 18 Weeks in Quantity


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 11:35:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Bryn=20Monnery?=)
Date: Thu Jun 20 10:35:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: FFW Forces
In-Reply-To: <20020620162606.77CEB27B34@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020620173343.91217.qmail@web13906.mail.yahoo.com>

>(Catching up) Is this number of local units, or
Imperial?  Some of 
those 
numbers look awful high.  Imperial units are 5% of the
base BE 
(population 
and TL, modified by taint). Also, the number of BE's
available for 
Imperial 
service is cut by 10% for each TL below 11.  A place
like Louzy/Jewell 
has 
a huge PDF, but relatively few recruits that meet the
standards of the 
Unified Army.

If those are the local forces, only 10% will be
available for off-world 
operations.<

The system used was the GF system, although IMHO the
table has been shifted over 1 column accidently. I
traded everyone up to TL-15 and got raw BE's. I was
very liberal with almost every world between 3 and 9,
not counting them as "unbreathable" (with one
exception, Entrope). A surprising number of systems
had 0 BE's. The output for the Spinward Marches is
enclosed.

I've always assumed the "Imperial Army" is just the
amalgam the the planetary armies of the member worlds,
and that essentially the entire regular army is
mobilisable.
	
Emape	0
Raweh	0
Rushu	1
Gothe	0
Mirriam	120
Jone	12
Penelope	0
Karin	14
Wonstar	14
Froin	0
Gohature	8
Quhaiathat	0
Lakou	0
Iderati	7
Quar	11
Flammarion	0
Ruby	0
Emerald	0
Choleosti	0
Margesi	1
Jewell	2100
Frenzie	0
Garda-Vilis	216
Vilis	1920
Mongo	1
728-907	0
Stellatio	0
Arkadia	60
Nakege	0
Lysen	1
Mirriam	0
Saurus	0
Caladbolg	17
Denotam	0
Ficant	0
Gunn	0
Caliburn	0
Calit	75
Asgard	8
Tavonni	0
Mertactor	17
Louzy	1500
Grant	0
Phlume	1
Mille Falcs	0
Efate	2800
Alell	96
Extolay	24
Lanth	0
Arba	0
Wardn	0
Olympia	0
Smoug	14
Grote	0
Lydia	0
Melior	0
Egypt	0
Aster	0
Yres	0
Menorb	450
Uakye	0
Whanga	0
Knorbes	12
Forboldn	0
Jenghe	0
Dinon	0
Ghandi	0
Victoria	2
Rabwhar	45
Adabicci	224
Zaibon	0
Tenalphi	0
Callia	120
Pixie	0
Boughene	0
Hefry	0
Regina	245
Dinomn	0
Ylaven	0
Sonthert	0
D'Ganzio	0
Ianic	1
Spirelle	105
Mithras	0
Weiss	0
Windsor	0
Overnale	1
New Rome	196
Craw	1
Feri	168
Roup	450
Wypoc	0
Derchon	1
Aki	300
Glisten	120
Trane	0
Pscias	0
Yori	17
Djinni	0
Rech	8
Lunion	2800
Shirene	0
Penkwar	0
Harvosette	14
Centry	0
Caledonia	1
Sorel	1
Horosho	216
Romor	0
Tentus	0
Kinorb	1
Beck's World	0
Enope	90
Wochiers	11
Kkirka	0
Quopist	2
Carse	0
Persephone	216
Marastan	14
Crout	450
Tirem	168
Inthe	0
Tsarina	0
Wurzburg	0
Yorbund	0
Shionthy	1
Algine	1050
Yurst	0
Treece	90
Echiste	0
Pirema	0
Rhise	0
Ivendo	0
Quiru	0
Gorram	0
Resten	0
Capon	14
Sharrip	0
Strouden	3150
Bicornn	0
Ffudn	32
Bendor	3
Heya	11
Keng	120
Moughas	0
Rethe	4500
Inthe	6
Keanou	0
Tureded	0
Vreibefger	0
La'Belle	0
Equus	56
Icetina	0
Cogri	1
Skull	9
Gandr	0
Drolraw	0
Paya	0
Dhian	0
Kinorb	0
Gileden	0
Plannet	0
Garrincski	0
Heroni	1050
Byret	1
Pimane	0
Burtson	1
Squanine	0
Dobham	0
Pyramus	0
Thisbe	0
Aramis	14
Corfu	0
Focaline	0
Macene	0
Fulacin	0
Natoko	300
Fosey	1
Mercury	0
Tivid	0
Robin	0
D'Mara	14
Kelcher	0
Lablon	0
Heguz	0
Violante	0
Risek	0
Porozlo	5600
Rhylanor	1200
Loneseda	0
Carey	0
Duale	11
Tussinian	0
Edenelt	252
Conway	0
Doods	600
Valhalla	0
Zivije	112
Jae Tellona	0
Gerome	0
Catz	0
Meleto	0
Hexos	0
Pedase	0
Leander	0
Pepernium	0
Traltha	1
Farquahar	0
Pavanne	0
Carsten	0
Zila	11
Henoz	0
Celepina	0
Gitosy	0
Moran	0
Maitz	0
Mainz	0
Raydrad	0
Zyra	0
Murchison	0
Hammermium	0
Thornnastor	0
Jesedipere	0
Yebab	105
Nasemin	0
Zykoca	0
Aramanx	300
Pysadi	0
L'oeul d'Dieu	0
Belizo	1
Kegena	0
Heroni	1
457-973	0
Somem	0
Brodie	0
Rorise	0
Jokotre	120
Fornice	7000
Grille	0
Pallique	45
Nexine	0
Katarulu	1
Prilissa	0
Tee-Tee-Tee	0
Youghal	0
Tenelphi	0
Rugbird	0
Towers	0
Feneteman	0
Lewis	0
Aramis	0
Vinorian	1
Nutema	0
Huderu	0
Cipatwe	9
Vanejen	75
Nadrin	0
Mora	1500
Zephyr	0
Chamois	1
Junidy	4500
Patinir	0
Natoko	0
Reacher	0
Margesi	0
Bevy	480
Tacaxeb	0
Powaza	0
Dojodo	0
Fenl's Gren	0
Ramiva	1
Trin	1500
Hazel	2



=====
"I knew it on the roof that night. We were brothers, Roy Batty and I! Combat models of the highest order. We had fought in wars not yet dreamed of... in vast nightmares still unnamed. We were the new people... Roy and me and Rachael! We were made for this world. It was ours!"

- Final Line of Blade Runner: Original Preview Cut

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 11:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Jun 20 10:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Query
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEEHCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>
>     "Besides, a very wise professor of mine once told our class that it is
>far easier to remember where to look up specific facts than to
>remember specific facts themselves..."
>
>     He was a very wise man.  I much rather prefer to hear, "I don't know,
>but I know where to find it" over "It's this way, trust me".

I have declined a number of clients who have advised me that they are not
going to pay for legal research.  "You are a lawyer, so you should know the
law."  Yes, right, so I'm obviously not the right lawyer for you.  Next!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 11:51:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Jun 20 10:51:16 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Weapon Review Rodeo
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEEHCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

Thanks for a great story!

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 11:56:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Jun 20 10:56:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Roseberry's Rodeo Entry#7
In-Reply-To: <3D11FC4E.F4B47802@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020620125504.00986230@minn.net>

Did anyone besides Mr Roseberry und my self assume that Strouden was
settled by Solomani Germans?

At 11:01 AM 6/20/2002 -0500, Dan Roseberry wrote:

>Ship: Der Schwanstuka
>Class: Der Schwanstuka
>Type: Strike Cruiser
>Architect: Dan Roseberry
>Tech Level: 13

[snip]

>COMMENTS
>Built at Strouden. Used along the Imperial border to scare Sword Worlds
>vessels.

And if this isn't sufficiently scary:

Ship: Kaiserin Arbellatra
Class: Kaiserin Arbellatra
Type: Battlecruiser
Architect: Leslie Bates
Tech Level: 13

USP
         BC-S1458G4-093307-96R38-0 MCr 182,200.560 200 KTons
Bat Bear             A   9 X614W   Crew: 2306
Bat                  G   E ZA16Y   TL: 13

Cargo: 900.000 Passengers: 10 Fuel: 96,990.000 EP: 16,000.000 Agility: 5
Shipboard Security Detail: 200 Marines: 500 Drop Capsules: 10 (plus 500
Ready 1500 Stored)
Craft: 30 x 95T Shuttle
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/7fib Computer 1 x Bridge 1 x Factor 2 Nuclear Damper 1 x
Factor 2 Meson Screen
Substitutions: W = 65 X = 32 Y = 100 Z = 50

Architects Fee: MCr 1,822.006   Cost in Quantity: MCr 145,760.448


Detailed Description

HULL
200,000.000 tons standard, 2,800,000.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge
Configuration

CREW
159 Officers, 1647 Ratings, 500 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-4, 5G Manuever, Power plant-8, 16,000.000 EP, Agility 5

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/7fib Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/7fib Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
Spinal Mount, 20 100-ton bays, 110 50-ton bays, 660 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
Particle Accelerator Spinal Mount (Factor-R), 6 100-ton Meson Bays
(Factor-3), 100 50-ton Missile Bays (Factor-8), 10 50-ton Plasma Gun Bays
(Factor-6), 500 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organised into 50 Batteries
(Factor-9)

DEFENCES
14 100-ton Repulsor Bays (Factor-7), 160 Triple Sandcaster Turrets
organised into 16 Batteries (Factor-9), Nuclear Damper (Factor-3), Meson
Screen (Factor-3)
1 Nuclear Damper Backup (Factor-2), 1 Meson Screen Backup (Factor-2)

CRAFT
30 95.000 ton Shuttles (Crew of 0, Cost of MCr 0.000)

FUEL
96,990.000 Tons Fuel (4 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance, plus 990.000
tons of additional fuel)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1,166.0 Staterooms, 10 Drop Capsule Launchers with 500 Ready Capsules and
1500 Stored Capsules, 10 High Passengers, 900.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 184,022.566 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 1,822.006), MCr
145,760.448 in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
212 Weeks Singly, 170 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
Flagship of die Planetarische Verteidigung-Kraft von Strouden.
=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 12:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Jun 20 11:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
References: <20020620015433.3018B279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D1224CC.9000806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Eris Reddoch wrote:
>   I'm new to
> town so I inquire of my computer the name of a good italian
> restaurant, it doesn't know, but it sends out the inquire to all
> passing computers and before long the name of a local restaurant is
> whispered into my ear.

This would work quite well, as this is, more or less, how Google works. 
It not only indexes the web, but ranks the returns by relevancy 
according to how many other sites refer to it (among other, more 
proprietary measues. I don't much care as it is truly astonishing how 
many times I've entered a  rather obscure or (more amazingly) a *vague* 
query into Google and gotten paydirt in the first five hits.)

You would get a list with the most favored ones at the top.

Now if it runs like Yahoo, you'll get a list with the restaurant that 
paid the most to Yahoo at the top, and the second through fifteenth hits 
would be online porn that simply stuffed the keyword 'Best Italian 
Restaurant' in its listing...


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 13:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun 20 12:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <20020620101114.6783527BED@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17L7IO-00035D-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> wrote:

> I wrote: 
> True, but I don't believe the sex ratios are screwed up to 
> *anywhere* near the same degree.  I've heard rumors that in parts of
> rural china, the sex rations are in excess of 5 to 1 (someone please
> correct me if you have more accurate data).  Not a place I'd wish on
> *anyone*, but fascinating nonetheless.
> 
> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 
> 
> China
> 
> Sex ratio:
> at birth: 1.09 male(s)/female 
> 
> under 15 years: 1.1 male(s)/female 
> 
> 15-64 years: 1.06 male(s)/female 
> 
> 65 years and over: 0.89 male(s)/female 
> 
> total population: 1.06 male(s)/female (2001 est.) 

Over all of China the sex-ration skewing effects of their one-child 
policy are small and may well remain so.  However, in the mid 90s 
I talked to two anthropologists who had been to parts of rural China 
and said that sex rations were *far* more extreme in a few local 
areas.  However, for obvious reasons no one was able to do 
surveys, so I have no idea how extreme the local variations are   

Also, I must admit a bit of skepticism wrt that data, since I'm fairly 
certain ti comes from the PRC government.  The PRC government 
clearly lies about data like the rate of AIDs infection in China (they 
vastly under-report it), and it would not surprise me if they were 
also under-reporting sex ratio skewing (which over the whole nation 
is still likely to be fairly small). 

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 13:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Jun 20 12:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] It Would Be A Very Popular Design.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020620125504.00986230@minn.net>
References: <3D11FC4E.F4B47802@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020620142353.0097f8e0@minn.net>

At 12:55 PM 6/20/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Did anyone besides Mr Roseberry und my self assume that Strouden was
>settled by Solomani Germans?
>
>At 11:01 AM 6/20/2002 -0500, Dan Roseberry wrote:
>
>>Ship: Der Schwanstuka
>>Class: Der Schwanstuka
>>Type: Strike Cruiser
>>Architect: Dan Roseberry
>>Tech Level: 13
>
>[snip]
>
>>COMMENTS
>>Built at Strouden. Used along the Imperial border to scare Sword Worlds
>>vessels.

And of course I didn't get the joke until after I was on my way to lunch.

D'OH!

Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Jun 20 12:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] HGS test request
Message-ID: <3D122CF7.92BAAC5F@mail.cswnet.com>

>> 1) With the 1.14 build, it throws up a date error at start and >>crashes
>> 2) Again with the 1.14 build, it refuses to run on Win XP
>>
>> Thanks

>I use 1.13 just fine on my laptop running XP.  What is the significant
>change between 1.13 and 1.14?

I'm with you Mr Colosetti. I got 1.13. I got a odd message when I first
downloaded it [can't remember what it said] but I leave it in the zip
file thingey and it works fine. It does not work well for some reason
when its not in the zip file thingey.

Can you tell I'm computer illiterate? ;)

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 13:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Jun 20 12:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Rules of War applications
Message-ID: <3D123055.8545552A@mail.cswnet.com>

>In the OTU are Meson Guns considered to be weapons of
>mass destruction? Are they then considered to be
>violating the Imperial Rules of War if used? (I'm
>exploring the possibilities of allowing PCs temporary
>use of a Meson Gun). 

Strictly speaking, it would depend on how big the gun was [that is to
say the footprint its gonna leave when you fire it] and how many times
your going to fire it, and what your going to fire at. 

Firing it 10 times at the same spot some where out in a desert wouldn't
trigger the rules of war.

Firing it 10 times at a suburban area on Efate might cause some
problems.

Firing it 1 time at a class A/V starport will bring the wrath of IN down
on you.

Now, having said all of that.

IMTU I would place extreme measures on a mercenary unit with a meson
gun. They are rare among mercenary units.

So rare in fact, that I would never NEVER EVER let PC's get ahold of
one. But thats just me, YMMV.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 13:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Jun 20 12:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:Another goddamned canon question and ship
Message-ID: <3D1232AB.637843CE@mail.cswnet.com>

>I assumed that the USSF was merged into the unified Terran Navy after >the First Interstellar War.

The key word there is after. USSF was around for the First Interstellar
War. Which, by my numerous runs with Imperuim, results in the fall of
Nusku. But I digress. After the First its a cruiser, before the first,
and during the first, IMTU, its a different critter all together. YMMV

Also, upon further reflection, I think SB-52 would be a better type;
space bomber type 52.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 14:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Jun 20 13:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <memo.422167@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020620085652.009f4670@mindspring.com>
>I forget, have you ever seen Jesse around automatic weapons?  He's like a 
>kid on Christmas waiting to open his presents.

And what is wrong with that, pray?

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal (who'd just like the opportunity to play...)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 14:09:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Thu Jun 20 13:09:54 2002
Subject: [TML] TML Ship Rodeo Entry
Message-ID: <022801c21893$5e046280$ae26f7a5@pctframen>

An experiment in pushing the limits of sub-200 ton merchant design...

Designed using AMV's HGS program. Permission is given to freely share this
design, includin archival on websites:

Ship: Austerlitz
Class: Esprit
Type: Packet
Architect: Fred Ramen
Tech Level: 12

USP
         MP-16222R2-230000-10001-0 MCr 80.472 150 Tons
Bat Bear             1     1   1   Crew: 12
Bat                  1     1   1   TL: 12

Cargo: 49.000 Fuel: 3.000 EP: 3.000 Agility: 1 Pulse Lasers
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 0.805   Cost in Quantity: MCr 64.378


Detailed Description

HULL
150.000 tons standard, 2,100.000 cubic meters, Flattened Sphere
Configuration

CREW
Pilot/Engineer, Medic, Gunner/Steward

ENGINEERING
Jump-2, 2G Manuever, Power plant-2, 3.000 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/1bis Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMAMENT
1 Triple Mixed Turret with: 1 Pulse Laser (Factor-1), 1 Missile Rack
(Factor-1).

DEFENCES
1 Single Sandcaster Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-3), Armoured
Hull (Factor-2)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
3.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant, 30.000 ton drop
tanks

MISCELLANEOUS
7.5 Staterooms, 20 Low Berths, 49.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 81.277 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.805), MCr 64.378 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
49 Weeks Singly, 39 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS

Brennan Industries, LIC, a mercantile holding company on the fringes of the
Imperium, decided to expand their services into areas beyond the Imperium.
Initially targeting District 268, a packet service, with regular cargo and
passenger service to worlds not nomally served by the larger merchant lines,
was sold as a subscription package to several worlds in the District. In
return for a partial subsidization of the route and an agreement to give
Brennan Industries a mail contract, the corporation would provide timely
packet service.

Intending to build the route from the ground up, Brennan turned to its
wholly owned design susidiary, Pssthpok (of Pak) Engineering (motto: Brute
Force solutions to your Engineering needs) PPE came up with the unique
Esprit class of merchant pickets.

When the specifications were released in late 1067, skeptics scoffed at the
plan. How could a ship without internal jump tankage possibly be useful in a
frontier environment? Sir Elroy Truesdale, a spokesman for the firm, tried
to answer these questions: "First, its a myth that there is no internal
tankage. Two collapsible 15-ton fuel bladders are stowed in the cargo bay,
making it possible for the ship to jump even without drop tanks. But by not
carrying the jump fuel in normal operations, we have been able to increase
armor and armament beyond that typical for a ship of this size. A Brennan
Packet means guaranteed delivery!"

The truth is that the ship works very well while on the packet routes.
Brennan Industries agents collect used drop tanks and refill them at most
points on the route. Additionally, 1500-ton tenders follow the packet
routes, providing refit and refueling for packet ships.

For a ship of its size, the Esprit class is remarkable in that it can pay
for itself, provided it travels near capacity and has a mail contract.
Brennan aggressively pursues cargos and passengers along the packet routes,
often doing a steady business in contracting for the government. Agents of
the company can be found at any starport, even Class E, along the packet
routes. (These routes travel to worlds without Class A starports. Frequently
a Class B starport is selected as the "hub" of the route.)

Brennan Industries was founded by a consortium of former high-ranking
military officers, and these origins are clearly visible in the corporate
structure and hiring policies. A high percentage of the crews of Esprit
class pickets have military experience. Pilots are generally recruited from
the Imperial Navy; when Naval pilots are unavailable, Scouts are preferred
because of their high initiative. Stewards are often ex-Marines; it is
fairly well-known that Brennan will even train prospective Marines in
Steward and Gunnery upon hire. The Steward is considered the ship's security
officer.

Medics were traditionally recruited from the Army and Marines. Recently,
however, medics from the Merchant service have been sought after. These
medics serve as de facto pursers for their ships.

The first series of five packets were released in 1069, all named after
battles from Terran history; the best known were the _Issus_, _Cannae_ and
_Actium_. Their tender was the _Ptolomey_, tragically destroyed by pirates
in 1072. Problems with the drop tanks often limited these ships to Jump-1;
the ones still in service were extensively overhauled in 1080 to correct
these problems.

Series B was far more successful; several ships, including the _Austerlitz_,
_Jena_ and _Chancellorsville_ remain in service, as does the redoubtable
tender _Marechal Ney_, now the "Permanent Floating Headquarters" of Brennan
Industries in District 268. This series was released in 1082 and many ships
saw combat during the Fourth Frontier War.

The militaristic names of the ships are an indication of the class' other
well-known function: mercenary transports. By doubling up and using the low
berths, almost a full rifle platoon may be carried onboard, as well as
vehicles and equipment. The ship's armor and moderate G-rating make it able
to survive surface combat. An example of this occured during the Tanoose
Insurgency in 1105. Two Esprit-class packets purchased by Zahir Tananga, _Yo
canto de las armas y del hombre_ and _Canta, Musa, de la ira de Aquilles_,
were able to deliver two light tank platoons, including eight tanks, in a
hot combat drop before immediately taking off. Rendezvousing with _Allison,
flora de mi corazon_, Tananga's subsidized merchant in orbit, they picked up
their drop tanks and jumped out.

Indeed, indications are that Pssthpok Engineering simply adapted their
original drop ship/light SDB design to merchant service...

Quarters on an Esprit class are extremely cramped and can barely be
considered High Passage quality. Physically, the ships are vaguely ovid,
like a fat ellipse balanced on edge. The lower deck contains the cargo bay,
including a large cargo door at the bow of the vessel for rapid
disembarkment. The next level houses fuel and passenger staterooms.
Narrowing as it rises, a large open gap between two "towers" holds the drop
tanks; the aft tower holds the drives, and the forward tower contains the
bridge and three small staterooms for the crew. Spanning the gap is the
"handle", a crawlway connecting the towers.

USP for the tender follows below. The cargo space is given over to drop
tanks and spare parts; the ship generally carries an extra engineer or three
for field repairs.

Ship: Marechal Ney
Class: General
Type: Tender
Architect: Fred Ramen
Tech Level: 12

USP
         MT-A722222-040000-20002-0 MCr 618.010 1.5 KTons
Bat Bear             1     2   2   Crew: 39
Bat                  1     2   2   TL: 12

Cargo: 108.000 Emergency Low: 5 Fuel: 530.000 EP: 30.000 Agility: 1
Shipboard Security Detail: 2 Marines: 5 Pulse Lasers
Craft: 5 x 95T Shuttle, 3 x 10T Fighter

Architects Fee: MCr 6.180   Cost in Quantity: MCr 494.408


Detailed Description

HULL
1,500.000 tons standard, 21,000.000 cubic meters, Dispersed Structure
Configuration

CREW
11 Officers, 23 Ratings, 5 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-2, 2G Manuever, Power plant-2, 30.000 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/2 Computer

HARDPOINTS
10 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
3 Dual Missile Turrets organised into 2 Batteries (Factor-2), 5 Dual Pulse
Laser Turrets organised into 2 Batteries (Factor-2)

DEFENCES
2 Dual Sandcaster Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-4)

CRAFT
5 95.000 ton Shuttles (Crew of 0, Cost of MCr 0.000), 3 10.000 ton Fighters
(Crew of 0, Cost of MCr 0.000)

FUEL
530.000 Tons Fuel (2 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance, plus 200.000 tons
of additional fuel)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
25.0 Staterooms, 5 Emergency Low Berths, 108.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 624.190 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 6.180), MCr 494.408 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
127 Weeks Singly, 102 Weeks in Quantity



Fred Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 14:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Jun 20 13:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:Another goddamned canon question and ship
In-Reply-To: <3D1232AB.637843CE@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020620152622.009847f0@minn.net>

At 02:53 PM 6/20/2002 -0500, Dan Roseberry wrote:
>>I assumed that the USSF was merged into the unified Terran Navy after
>the First Interstellar War.
>
>The key word there is after. USSF was around for the First Interstellar
>War. Which, by my numerous runs with Imperuim, results in the fall of
>Nusku. But I digress. After the First its a cruiser, before the first,
>and during the first, IMTU, its a different critter all together. YMMV
>
>Also, upon further reflection, I think SB-52 would be a better type;
>space bomber type 52.

Perhaps.


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 14:51:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Jun 20 13:51:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Probably some old penguin base...
Message-ID: <200206202049.IWR06267@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

How the penguins are really the Ancients, and how they 
devolved into their current innocuous form.

http://www1.timesofindia.com/articleshow.asp?art_ID=13482933
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 15:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Jun 20 14:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Roseberry's Rodeo Entry#8
Message-ID: <3D124249.B95468C4@mail.cswnet.com>

Ship: Hummel
Class: Hummel
Type: Hospital Ship
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 12

USP
         QL-M4313D4-041100-30000-0 MCr 24,838.877 37 KTons
Bat Bear             Y     9       Crew: 1816
Bat                  Z     A       TL: 12

Cargo: 4,311.000 Fuel: 12,210.000 EP: 1,110.000 Agility: 1 Shipboard
Security Detail: 37
Craft: 210 x 20T Angel class medevac boat
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Substitutions: Y = 54 Z = 60

Architects Fee: MCr 229.804   Cost in Quantity: MCr 20,242.802


Detailed Description

HULL
37,000.000 tons standard, 518,000.000 cubic meters, Close Structure
Configuration

CREW
30 Officers, 1786 Ratings

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 1G Manuever, Power plant-3, 1,110.000 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/4fib Computer

HARDPOINTS
70 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
10 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organised into 10 Batteries (Factor-3)

DEFENCES
60 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 60 Batteries (Factor-4),
Nuclear Damper (Factor-1), Meson Screen (Factor-1)

CRAFT
210 20.000 ton Angel class medevac boats (Crew of 4, Cost of MCr 8.850)

FUEL
12,210.000 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
911.0 Staterooms, 2000 Low Berths, 4,311.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
500 sick bays (7.000 tons, Crew 1, Cost MCr 5.000)

COST
MCr 23,210.181 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 229.804), MCr
18,384.302 in Quantity, plus MCr 1,858.500 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
183 Weeks Singly, 146 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
Ships Hospital Bays can handle 5000 patients. An additional 2000
patients can be place in low berth. Built for the Strouden military at
the end of the 3rd Frontier War, the Hummel still finds occasional
opportunities to serve. Presently serving in the Colonial reserve fleet.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Ship: Angel
Class: Angel
Type: Medevac boat
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 12

USP
         QB-0102211-000000-00000-0 MCr 8.850 20 Tons
Bat Bear                           Crew: 4
Bat                                TL: 12

Cargo: 0.800 Emergency Low: 10 Fuel: 1.000 EP: 0.400 Agility: 2
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.089   Cost in Quantity: MCr 7.080


Detailed Description

HULL
20.000 tons standard, 280.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration

CREW
Pilot, 3 Medics.

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 2G Manuever, Power plant-2, 0.400 EP, Agility 2

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/1 Computer

HARDPOINTS
None

ARMAMENT
None

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
0.400 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
4 Acceleration Couches, 10 Emergency Low Berths, 0.800 Ton Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 8.939 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.089), MCr 7.080 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
11 Weeks Singly, 9 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
EM Low Berths can be used as passenger couches. The Angel can take 10
patients using passenger couches or up to 40 using the Emergency Low
Berths.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 15:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun 20 14:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fundamental Technological Changes?
Message-ID: <14c8d5814c9c0f.14c9c0f14c8d58@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Date: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 10:56 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Fundamental Technological Changes?

> On 18 Jun 2002 at 16:02, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> > At TL12, we all get gauss rifles - I might make the argument 
> > that we'll get them before we get jump drive in RL.
> 
> According to FFS they can be made at TL10 if you want. Aside from 
> bigger jump drives and better armour there's very little that's 
> new 
> after TL12 (meson screens) until TL17, barring reverse engineered 
> black 
> globes at TL15.

Well, there are a few new gadgets that first show up at later TLs.  Two 
of my favorites are X-ray lasers and man-portable fusion weapons.

 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 15:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Thu Jun 20 14:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
In-Reply-To: <E17KNKY-0005lR-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0206201333570.29189-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> >
> > Lacking social presure to have kids, a rather large percentage of
> > people *won't*.
>
> It's interesting to note that (at least in the US) there is still a good
> bit of social pressure to reproduce.  I don't know if this is true in

In my experience (biased and subjective as it must be), the social
pressure to reproduce I've seen is *parental pressure* - "Where's those
grandkids you're supposed to be giving us so we can spoil 'em, do the fun
things we want to do but couldn't with you because we had to *raise* you,
oh and spend all your inheritence on them too."  :) Is that source of
pressure likely to diminish as well? I wouldn't think so.

I've always wanted kids - don't know why. (inherently me or parental
influence from a young age, I don't know.)  But there is some truth to the
aphorism[1] that you can't achieve great things and also be a great parent
(not while the need to sleep keeps interfering, anyway). But with longer
lifespans providing more time to achieve these great things (sans
procrastinative personalities) having children could be another phase of
life along with a successful career (as has been suggested, IIRC).

Rob D.


[1] can't recall the author or the exact phrasing and google searches have
turned up mostly "quotes for inspiration" - maybe it was Nietzsche or
Emerson.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 15:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Jun 20 14:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: FFW Forces
In-Reply-To: <20020620173343.91217.qmail@web13906.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020620162606.77CEB27B34@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020620141807.009f11c0@mindspring.com>

At 06:33 PM 6/20/02 +0100, you wrote:
>The system used was the GF system, although IMHO the
>table has been shifted over 1 column accidently. I
>traded everyone up to TL-15 and got raw BE's. I was
>very liberal with almost every world between 3 and 9,
>not counting them as "unbreathable" (with one
>exception, Entrope). A surprising number of systems
>had 0 BE's. The output for the Spinward Marches is
>enclosed.

No, the table is correct, based on the original from issue #9 of JTAS.

>I've always assumed the "Imperial Army" is just the
>amalgam the the planetary armies of the member worlds,
>and that essentially the entire regular army is
>mobilisable.

That's not how it was written in GF for a good reason.  A huge chunk of the 
Imperium is below the maximum common TL (12 in GURPS/15 otherwise)  Getting 
enough recruits with the background and ability to learn to use the hi-tech 
equipment will be a stumbling block.

Also, worlds are not going to agree to getting stripped of all their armed 
forces. What are you going to do with a TL 6 armored division anyway?  If 
you want to make that assumption, that all the units are in fact Imperial, 
you should adjust the BE down based on the number of TLs they need to be 
raised (p. 80)  You will still get a larger force, but it will be smaller 
than using the raw numbers.

Remember that GTL 10 covers Traveller TL 10-13. That should be the lowest 
TL seen in an Imperial force.

So, for Louzy, instead of 20,000 TL 6 BEs, you get 3,225 TL 10 BEs (or a 
bare 1,000 TL 12 BEs)

The point I was trying to make with these rules is that there is a lot more 
to arming a force than handing them advanced rifles and tanks. There needs 
to be a great deal invested in training and support. This lowers the number 
of units you can equip at the higher TL..


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 15:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Thu Jun 20 14:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] How good are Darrian SMGs? (was CHAUCHAT Prototype Close
 Escort)
In-Reply-To: <B934D098.5FF85%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0206201428150.29189-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> The French problems with weapons were often related to politics, or their
> penchant for design by committee.

> For example, some powerful noble studies naval architecture in college and
> decides he'll design the ultimate fighter.  He uses his influence to get it
> adopted, despite the fact that it's one of the worst designs ever fielded.

Or, on those rare occasions when the noble is a genius and because it's
NOT designed by committee but has a visionary architect leading the
design, it turns out to be one of the best designs in it's class.

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 15:36:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Jun 20 14:36:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
Message-ID: <F223v7U94sBSsDPL70s000264e4@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "Laresen, with all due respect, there are three things I'd like to
change about the damage cancer did to me."


Mr. Berry,

     I was never suggesting any type of prohibition for these techniques, 
just blathering about my personal problems with the idea.  My squeamishness 
in my own and would never be forced on others.  If the technology appears, 
by all means use it.  You make your decision and I'll make mine.
     Remember me when you explore Tau Ceti.

     "As for my perfect memory; store it!  Have a library where everything 
is compartmentalized."

     Now that is an elegant solution. The memories are available on demand 
and are not on-line 24/7.  The type of memory you have is a conscious 
decision on your part and not a feature set in stone.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 15:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Hopper)
Date: Thu Jun 20 14:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Rules of War applications
In-Reply-To: <3D123055.8545552A@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20020620213928.31264.qmail@web13306.mail.yahoo.com>

> So rare in fact, that I would never NEVER EVER let
> PC's get ahold of
> one. But thats just me, YMMV.
> 


The idea of the adventure I'm working on is that if
the players can take over a deep meson gun site on an
asteroid drifting into close orbit around a heavily
travelled world (the meson gun itself will be a bay
weapon to keep it from being ridiculous) and find out
who set this booby trap, then they get to keep it. So
far, the adventure is a TPK (Total Party Kill) - it is
doubtful that ANY of the PCs will survive. Since it is
so deadly, I wanted to offer a good incentive to do this.

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 15:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Jun 20 14:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] fueling ships
Message-ID: <F42Gf7kbw9jfoesjTvF00027b66@hotmail.com>

John-Martin wrote :

     "I have to admit total ignorance in modern terms how long it takes to 
fuel things that have large fuel needs.  Larsen or some navy boffin may know 
how long, say a conventionally powered destroyer or cruiser takes."


Gents,

     Sorry, I missed this on the first go-round.
     That being said, I'm afraid I don't have any hard and fast numbers or 
any personal experience.  The vessel I served aboard refueled every 5 years 
or so.  ;)
     I do know that the fossil fueled boys tended to top off every three 
days or so.  Both the carrier and the battlegroup's fast oiler act as "milch 
cows".  Each "un-rep" usually lasts 2-3 hours (ours seemed to be no shorter 
or lonoger then the others I witnessed).  During that time, food, ammo, 
spare parts, and fuel are passed across.  Of course transfers are only made 
during part of that 2-3 hour period.
     Another foggy fact is that certain theaters had certain minimum bunker 
level requirements.  In the Med, you weren't supposed to fall below ~90% or 
so.  North Atlantic, WestPac, and IO all had their own minimum bunker 
levels.
     All versions of Traveller are rather fuzzy on details regarding fuel.  
We all know it's hydrogen, but what specific kind?  And how is it actually 
used?  Reaction mass?  Power plant fuel only?  Coolant?
     I do know of, and have seen, pumps with a capacity you would not 
believe.  Heck, I can barely believe them!  Refueling times for vessels 
would depend more on the connections and pipes used and the structural 
strength of the tanks being filled.  Most civilian ships have a fuel 
capacity well under 1000 dTons.  I'd say, taking into account safety 
procedures and paperwork, that any ship could be refueled in one standard 
hour.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 15:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Jun 20 14:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <memo.422167@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020620143039.009e8530@mindspring.com>

At 09:05 PM 6/20/02 +0100, you wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020620085652.009f4670@mindspring.com>
> >I forget, have you ever seen Jesse around automatic weapons?  He's like a
> >kid on Christmas waiting to open his presents.
>
>And what is wrong with that, pray?

It's just amusing from the point of view of an ex-infantryman.  They used 
to be part of my everyday job, so I forget how cool they seem to some folks.

Hey Mark, how's about next time we make Jesse port a 60 with a full load of 
ammo several miles and see what he thinks of it after that?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 16:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Jun 20 15:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Q-ship versus Corsairs
Message-ID: <F125aUFNjbyAU9Pngad000010bc@hotmail.com>

From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>

     "Larsen - would you be so kind as to do a formal writeup of your 
homebrew 'flexible battery' rule?  Sounds like a candidate for Doing It My 
Way as well as for the interest and edification of the list."


Mr. Zeitlin,

     Will do.  I'll zip it and send it along to Freelance Traveller.  I'll 
peg all the costs and tonnage requirements to CT, LBB2 and HG2, that way 
folks can 'port it to whatever system they use.

     "Also, once you've done so, it would be interesting to see how it would 
have affected this particular encounter."

     The biggest effects will be in "forcing" the other guy to think of 
retaining lasers for anti-missile fire, giving you a better chance of 
hitting, or a better of penetration.  "Flexing" batteries wouldn't have 
helped the Vargr much I'm afraid (I goofed in my summation), but the Beowulf 
would have been given an intersting choice.
     A corsair has two, factor-4 laser batteries and two, factor-3 missile 
batteries.  Being able to "flex" those seperate batteries together would 
give the corsair a single factor-5 laser battery and a single factor-4 
missile battery.  This wouldn't have helped the Vargr against Kachina (that 
vessel's size, agility, and computer differential add up to a -12 drm).  
Apparently, I built a better anti-corsair Q-ship than I first thought.  
"Flexing" batteries would give the corsair a nasty advantage when tangling 
with a patroller however.
     The other effect would have been giving the Beowulf's lasers a slim 
chance of defending the vessel.  If the trader could risk one round of fire, 
would he risk a jump from within 10D?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 16:14:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Jun 20 15:14:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3823@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Depends on how much ammo I get to shoot afterwards ;)

Using my Steyr AUG airsoft gun was bad enough.  Because of it's metal receiver, it was pretty much real steel weight (just under 8lbs.).  Lugging that all over the field during day-long games, or worse, having it shouldered while on point, were enough to make me appreciate my nice little PDW (which WASN'T as heavy as it's real counterpart :)  Of course, people FEARED the AUG.  It's heavily modified >:D  400fps at ~1,200rpm is pretty brutal (relatively speaking) compared to a stock airsoft gun at ~250fps and 750rpm.

Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Berry [mailto:gridlore@mindspring.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 2:33 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator


At 09:05 PM 6/20/02 +0100, you wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020620085652.009f4670@mindspring.com>
> >I forget, have you ever seen Jesse around automatic weapons?  He's like a
> >kid on Christmas waiting to open his presents.
>
>And what is wrong with that, pray?

It's just amusing from the point of view of an ex-infantryman.  They used 
to be part of my everyday job, so I forget how cool they seem to some folks.

Hey Mark, how's about next time we make Jesse port a 60 with a full load of 
ammo several miles and see what he thinks of it after that?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

_______________________________________________
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TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 16:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Jun 20 15:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #648 - 24 msgs
In-Reply-To: <F183EaJswFCHOzyfyz50000002a@hotmail.com>
References: <F183EaJswFCHOzyfyz50000002a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020621081807.A27641@freeman.little-possums.net>

Walt Smith wrote:
> One possible reason: if you put your important infrastructure
> at or outside the 100D limit, then an enemy commerce raider
> can jump to it, nuke it, and jump out before your defenses
> can react.

The same applies to coastal ports, but we still don't see them built
100 km inland.  Besides, any space station worth protecting is likely
to have point defense, either inbuilt or in the form of craft
patrolling nearby.  The chance of a nuke getting through is probably
microscopic.

Even attempting such an action would be an act of war, not just the
usual scuffle that can be attributed to ECMs.  Directly attacking
stationary civilian facilities in plain sight is an act for which
they'd better be prepared for some large-scale retribution.

The same thing you consider a *dis*advantage against commerce raiding
is actually an advantage -- with this setup, commerce raiders can't
intercept interstellar freighters heading to or from the 100D limit
*at all*.  They even have next to no chance of doing significant
damage before their target jumps out, or they themselves are destroyed
by station defences.  Or both.


So to summarize, you have a number of major advantages by situating
the station out near the 100D limit:

1) Much faster turnaround for valuable trade, which means better
prices and/or increased profits.  For worlds inside the 100D limit of
their primary, these savings can be extreme.

2) Lower maneuvering requirements on interstellar craft, which again
means lower costs, and/or increased cargo volume per ship.

3) Rather than arming every ship, you can arm the space station, which
means you have much better concentration of firepower against commerce
raiding and higher volume (and/or lower costs).

4) Simpler traffic control, since the starship pilots do not have to
worry about planetary rotation or local orbital mechanics, and don't
have to travel at insane speeds to get to and from a 100D limit.

5) No need to worry about large interstellar craft crashing on your
planet's surface, especially when moving at insane speeds from the
100D limit (but even orbital speeds are bad enough).

6) Interstellar ships need not have streamlining to get through a
planetary atmosphere, nor landing legs, nor structure capable of
supporting a full hold against multiple gees of acceleration, nor
large amounts of reaction mass (if you require it in YTU).


>  Put it inside the 100D, and your SDB's and/or COACC could make such
> a manuever a little more suicidal, and thus less likely to happen.

I think its chance of happening is already near zero except between
interstellar states who are already at war.  Even then, the chance of
success is pretty small unless you bring a significant fleet -- and
then you could attack a station well inside the 100D limit anyway,
with about the same chances of success and casualties.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 16:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Jun 20 15:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPA NOTICE [and Rodeo Update]
Message-ID: <F2601f3L0zGSOpD0mAp00001b66@hotmail.com>

From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>

     "I told you that you created a monster."


Daniel,

     We, laddy-buck, WE.  Now the question is who's Dr. Frankenstein and 
who's Dr. Pretorius?

     "Yeah, definetely pare off 2 weeks. Otherwise the Rodeo turns into a 
stampede. We may have a stampede anyway."

     You are, of course, correct sir.  Okay, let's shut the submission 
window at the poster's local midnight 30 JUNE 02.  Voting can begin one tick 
later at 1 JULY 02.  We'll keep the voting open until the old date of 15 
JULY 02.

     "If we go with the slow pace,..."  (Snip of VERY big numbers)

     Well, maybe we can shift some blame onto Mr. Moffat-Vallance?  After 
all, his HGS program (a gift from SATAN I can see know) is responsible for 
most of the submiited designs.

     "As for voting, what are your thoughts?"

     Your win/place/show method worked superbly last time, along with the 
points awarded.  It lets people vote for multiple candidates and with the 
number of entries we'll have, voting for multiple candidates is a NECESSITY.
     Any ideas about catagories, or even whether we should have catagories?  
"Best-In-Show" of course.  Maybe "My-PCs-Next-Ship" or "Best-Civvie-Design" 
or "Best-Military-Design".  I'm all for the civvie/military split, Mr. Bates 
early IW designs definitely deserve their own catagory.
     We could come up with 2-4 catagories and ping the submitters for where 
they want their design(s) to be entered.  Everyone's designs are 
automatically entered in Best-In-Show however.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. "Rain in the Puss" Whipsnade


Shall we do it like the npc
>contest [win, place, show, with favorite categories]? IIRC, I had a
>point system running W=2 P=1 S=.5 .
>
>----------------------------------------------------------
>
>Who's building boats:
>As of digest#650
>About 1/4 [11] of the posts so far come from the Neo-Minneapolis
>Shipyards on Scandia/Solrim, operated by Leslie Bates. I'm a distant
>2nd, with 6 posts. We have a few people together with 4 and 3 posts a
>piece. The real winner is Andrew Moffatt-Vallance, whos High Guard
>Shipyard program seems to have been instrumental in this Rodeo.
> >>>salute<<< If such a program shows up for the GT folks, things could get 
>really scary. Also, a big >>>salute<<< to the guys that posted Book2 ships. 
>Seeing the Book2 ships is sorta like seeing the tall ships of old times. It 
>brings back fond memories. Finally, a big big big >>>salute<<< to everyone 
>who made or will make at least one posting. Your keeping the TML flame 
>alive!
>
>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
>_______________________________________________
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>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 16:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Jun 20 15:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
References: <F12NAELA86oxd8BTYC10000001d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D125B7A.4050709@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
> 
>      "Take a look at the history of the Wild West sometime.  It ought to 
> be something like that.  A lot of young men and not much else.  Lots of 
> violence and unspent aggression."
> 
> 
> Mr. Uhl,
> 
>     Interesting analogy, sir.  Complete with bride trains and ships you 
> think?

Too bad the Wild Wild West never really was like that...the vast 
majority of western cities and towns were rather normal places. The 
mythology came about predominantly via cheap fiction and pseudo news 
("fair and balanced" , even :-) reported breathlessly back to audiences 
on the East coast.

While there was some craziness, that was pretty much restricted to 
railhead in cattle towns, when the sailors got into port, err, the 
cowhands got paid after a drive.

The vast majority of westerners were mild-mannered hardworking laborers, 
farmers, ranchers, and townsfolk of various professions. Everyone 
*worked* too damn hard to be facing off in High-Noon gunfights, bar 
brawls and suchlike.

Even mining boomtowns were pretty mild. They were kept that way by the 
local bosses, as their primary purpose was stripping miners of their 
money in ways enjoyable enough to keep 'em coming back when they had more.

Now, as an old swabbie, I'm certain Mr. Whipsnade can identify the 
theory and practice thereof...Subic was a crazy place, but rarely 
produced anything more serious than empty wallets, pounding heads, 
bruised knuckles and perhaps a need for antibiotics...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 16:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Thu Jun 20 15:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Uploading (was: Query)
In-Reply-To: <20020620221725.709DB27BD6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020620153124.009f2be0@mailhost.efn.org>

I'm not surprised Doug would want to give up his body, given an 
alternative; by his own statements, he doesn't feel as if it's part of his 
self anymore, more like something that's trying to kill him.  (In a similar 
thread on rec.games.frp.misc, back when I still read that group, the 
inimitable Sea Wasp expressed similar sentiments and was confronted by a 
similar lack of understanding from the healthy readership-at-large.)

I, on the other hand, have no serious health problems.  Those I do have are 
mostly due to my own neglect and poor maintenance (pretty much how I treat 
my bicycle, too; I fix something when it breaks and maybe remember to oil 
it once a month).  Thus, while I wouldn't mind not being fat and mortal, 
and I already spend a fair amount of time living "inside my head", I am not 
so ready to give up physical existence and all its little joys and pains, 
even assuming a convincing virtual facsimile.

Firstly, I don't believe actual transfer is possible; that implies things 
like souls, the place for which in a scientific upload process is 
unclear.  Much more likely, the result would be a copy of my brainstate 
going on to do keen stuff while I wake up with a vague headache and live 
out the rest of my mortal life.  "You" don't get to climb inside the 
computer.  Second, much as I hesitate to have my vision laser-corrected 
today, I would worry about difficulties with the procedure.  What if both 
of us, me and the copy, wake up with a lobotomy?  Third, are you planning 
to wait until it's perfected?  Every posthumanist I've talked to jumps 
right to the "mature technology" stage of uploading; I wonder how many of 
them would be willing to spend their eternity in a VR of equivalent 
sophistication to (say) Doom.  Even in a convincing sim, I think "I" would 
miss the little random touches and emergent phenomena Nature provides.

And finally, having seen how I have changed mentally over the last decade 
or two (and not being altogether pleased with some of those shifts), I 
cannot imagine what "I" would be like after a century or a millenium of 
bodiless existence - except perhaps as moments of vague atavistic 
terror.  I fear any immortal being, even one that started out as a 
facsimile of myself.

But I am still only thirty-something, still only vaguely mortal.  Perhaps 
these attitudes too will change with time and an aging, failing body.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Jun 20 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Ping: Graphic Artist
Message-ID: <F16kmx42WGYwvimdzhU0000746e@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Would the kind soul who graciously offered to create award certificates 
for the Great TML NPC Contest please contact me off List?
     I have a cunning plan...


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 17:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Jun 20 16:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Minimum population for tech levels
Message-ID: <F94xEq1HmJhdyxRFAGs00027854@hotmail.com>

From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

     "Now, as an old swabbie, I'm certain Mr. Whipsnade can identify the 
theory and practice thereof...Subic was a crazy place, but rarely
produced anything more serious than empty wallets, pounding heads,
bruised knuckles and perhaps a need for antibiotics..."


Mr. Johnson,

     An entirely correct observation, sir.  When the shenanigans build above 
a certain level, the ability to fleece... (ahem) provide visitors with 
services in return for small sums becomes threatened.
     I had the distinct pleasure to waddle the sidewalks of Olongapo both as 
a participant and as a member of the Shore Patrol.  My memories of the 
skills, professionalism, and cunning of the natives as they went about their 
daily (and nightly) business can still bring a tear to my eye.
     The city fathers of such diverse, but similar, places as Skagway, 
Ankh-Morpork, and Subic definitely do not sweat the "small stuff", indeed 
the city's exchequer depends on both the timely and customer-friendly 
delivery of the "small stuff", but they come down very, very, VERY, hard on 
the big things.
     One of my personal heroes, Soapy Smith, managed Skagway, Alaska during 
the Yukon Gold Rush extremely well.  A true industrialist, he realized that 
VOLUME was the key to PROFIT.  This genius not only provided liquor, 
gambling, and ladies of negotiable virtue, but took care to handle the 
little things too.  The construction and operation of a telegraph office, 
which busily accepted message forms for a very reasonable fee despite the 
fact that no telegraph cable connected Skagway with the outside world, was 
the hallmark of a bonafide genius.
     It was only when Soapy failed to take care of the big things; failing 
to punish certain murderers, that the whole project came apart.  
Fortunately, Mr. Smith was able to make the packet ahead of a committee of 
citizens.
     If I may be so bold, the celebrated Oldtown section of Newport on 
Grote/Glisten would be viewed by dear Soapy as home sweet home.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 17:54:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Jun 20 16:54:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Soapy Smith
Message-ID: <F167Y80HwAEXQaIolK900026571@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     My apologies for "bum doping" you all.  Jefferson Randolph "Soapy" 
Smith did not survive his stay in Skagway, Alaska as I had learned at my 
sainted grandfather's knee.
     Thanks to Google, here are a few Soapy links for you;

http://www.mtnguy.com/owlhoots/smith.htm

http://www.leadville.com/history/soapy.htm

http://www.yukonweb.com/business/lost_moose/books/chilkoot/soapy.html

http://www.library.state.ak.us/goldrush/stories/soapy.htm

     Apparently my grandfather, while teaching me the fast shuffle and 
bottom dealing, bowdlerized Soapy's story so as not to upset his delicate, 
young, repro...(ahem), grandson.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 17:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Jun 20 16:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How good are Darrian SMGs? (was CHAUCHAT Prototype
 Close Escort)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0206201428150.29189-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B937B927.60B46%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/20/02 2:30 PM, Rob Davenport at rgd@travellercentral.com wrote:

> Or, on those rare occasions when the noble is a genius and because it's
> NOT designed by committee but has a visionary architect leading the
> design, it turns out to be one of the best designs in it's class.
> 

In which case, it's declared obsolete, and pilots come up with all sorts of
creative excuses for keeping theirs.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 18:00:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Jun 20 17:00:05 2002
Subject: [TML] fueling ships
In-Reply-To: <F42Gf7kbw9jfoesjTvF00027b66@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B937BA29.60B47%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/20/02 2:51 PM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:

> I do know of, and have seen, pumps with a capacity you would not
> believe.  Heck, I can barely believe them!  Refueling times for vessels
> would depend more on the connections and pipes used and the structural
> strength of the tanks being filled.  Most civilian ships have a fuel
> capacity well under 1000 dTons.  I'd say, taking into account safety
> procedures and paperwork, that any ship could be refueled in one standard
> hour.

I have seen pumps at Sulzer-Bingham that were designed to drain Spirit lake
after the Mount St. Helens eruption that were said to be able to do the job
in a matter of days.

And "Modern Marvels" did a segment on machine tools.  One machine was shown
making an impeller for the Space Shuttle fuel pump.  Said pump was said to
be able to drain an Olympic sized swimming pool in 58 seconds.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 18:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Thu Jun 20 17:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo Question
Message-ID: <002401c218b7$93622600$1c577b83@Gideon>

I am currently finishing up a set of deck plans for the Racing Yacht I
submitted and I have a few questions.  Is there any interest in such things?
(I never use any ship without deckplans personally.)  If so, is there anyone
who would be willing to host them for me?  Thanks to everyone involved in
this Rodeo, it's the most exciting thing I've seen on the TML for quite a
long time!

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 18:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Jun 20 17:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] fueling ships
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEBAHPAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEFBEBAA.carlino@cox.net>

> How long does it take?
>
> I have to admit total ignorance in modern terms how long it
> takes to fuel things that have large fuel needs.  Larsen or
> some navy boffin may know how long, say a conventionally
> powered destroyer or cruiser takes. AS a WAG, we should be
> talking in terms of hours to gas -- well H2 is a gas :) --
> up even a far trader

As might be expected it entirely depends on the ability of the fuel pumps to
transfer fuel. That being said it takes about 45 minutes to an hour and a
half to "top off" an FFG-7 class gas turbine frigate during and underway
refueling exercise. During this exercise the receiving ship is generally
being serviced by a fleet oilier or aircraft carrier, both of which have
really high capacity pumps. Refueling along side a pier at a U.S. Navy base
can take several hours. Getting fuel from an overseas commercial port can
take much longer.

I remember sitting in the Azores and pumping fuel for at least 14 hours.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 18:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Thu Jun 20 17:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Traveller Book (was RE: Traveller Lite)
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEAODOAA.tml@jtas.org>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEAODOAA.tml@jtas.org>
Message-ID: <57137167166.20020621091721@greimann.de>


Am 2002&#8221;N5&#338;&#381;15&#8220;, las ich folgendes:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mike West

>> So, if they had done The Traveller Aliens, it would have been
>> more expensive as a unit, but the Alien Modules make more
>> money for GDW.

> That book _was_ published. 100 units. In Germany?
Yup, and what a fine piece of work it is ;-)

But that was a leather bound collectors edition, not a regular book.

-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 18:54:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Jun 20 17:54:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Rules of War applications
In-Reply-To: <20020620154447.777.qmail@web13303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEFCEBAA.carlino@cox.net>

>In the OTU are Meson Guns considered to be weapons of
>mass destruction? Are they then considered to be
>violating the Imperial Rules of War if used? (I'm
>exploring the possibilities of allowing PCs temporary
>use of a Meson Gun).
>
Since the Third Imperium is not allowing Oberlines to operate their AHL
class frontier within the Imperium I suspect that even if Meson Guns are not
considered Weapons of Mass Destruction in the strictest sense that the IN
would frown up on any civilians who use one.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 18:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Jun 20 17:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo Question
References: <002401c218b7$93622600$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <3D12791D.7080704@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Colosetti wrote:
> I am currently finishing up a set of deck plans for the Racing Yacht I
> submitted and I have a few questions.  Is there any interest in such things?
> (I never use any ship without deckplans personally.)  If so, is there anyone
> who would be willing to host them for me?  Thanks to everyone involved in
> this Rodeo, it's the most exciting thing I've seen on the TML for quite a
> long time!

Why yes there is; there's even an entire mailing list devoted to such. 
go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and look for 'deckplans'

As for posting them, I suspect Jeff Zeitlin is more than willing to put 
them on Freelance Traveller.

What format are they in?


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 19:01:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun 20 18:01:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How good are Darrian SMGs? (was CHAUCHAT Prototype Close Escort)
In-Reply-To: <20020618181959.8D36027B61@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <B9348B23.5FEB9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <200206210103.g5L13Rt29316@sun.ebtech.net>

I've considered that the basic Sword World weapon is the crater 
gun from GURPS Ultra Tech II

Swordies like lots of fire power that you have to use up close 
combined with lots of body armour.

Sort of like their battle wagons heavy shields and capable of 
landing on most planets.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 19:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Thu Jun 20 18:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Handwaving ourselves into the future
In-Reply-To: <3CE325B2.8B820C4E@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3CE325B2.8B820C4E@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <44138208506.20020621093442@greimann.de>

> The first fan in line to see the 1201 am viewing of Star Wars: Episode 2
> at the UA Breckenridge Village Theater in Little Rock, Arkansas:

> a Mark Miller.


"A", or "The" ?


-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 19:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Jun 20 18:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RESOLUTION Class Missile Frigate
In-Reply-To: <F2601f3L0zGSOpD0mAp00001b66@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020620200439.00982410@minn.net>

Submitted for your approval, a ship created for my private
(non-Ancients/Ziru Sirka) universe Mk 2.

Permission to post on websites is granted:

Ship: Resister
Class: Resolution
Type: Missile Frigate
Architect: Leslie Bates
Tech Level: 12

FM-27  RESISTER  FM-A1368D2-200100-40009-0 MCr 2,197.515 1.8 KTons
   Batteries Bearing               4   1   Crew: 41
   Batteries                       4   1   TL: 12
Cargo: 3 Fuel: 504 EP: 144 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 2
Craft: 1 x 50T Cutter
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Architects Fee: MCr 21.695   Cost in Quantity: MCr 1,763.612

Detailed Description

HULL:			1,800 tons standard, 25,200 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration
CREW:			12 Officers, 29 Ratings
ENGINEERING:		Jump-3, 6G Manuever, Power plant-8, 144 EP, Agility 6
AVIONICS:		Bridge, Model/4fib Computer
HARDPOINTS:		1 100-ton bay, 8 Hardpoints
ARMAMENT:		1 100-ton Missile Bay (Factor-9), 8 Triple Beam Laser Turrets
organised into 4 Batteries (Factor-4)
DEFENCES:		Nuclear Damper (Factor-1), Armoured Hull (Factor-2)
CRAFT:			1 50 ton Cutter (Crew of 2, Cost of MCr 28.000)
FUEL:			504 Tons Fuel (2 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance) On Board Fuel
Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant
MISCELLANEOUS:	23 Staterooms, 3 Tons Cargo
COST:			MCr 2,191.210 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 21.695), MCr
1,735.612 in Quantity, plus MCr 28.000 of Carried Craft
CONSTRUCTION TIME:	130 Weeks Singly, 104 Weeks in Quantity
COMMENTS:		TL 12 Freyani Frigate



=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 19:11:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun 20 18:11:28 2002
Subject: [TML] (Fwd) Sword Worlds in the Fifth Frontier War
Message-ID: <200206210111.g5L1Bnt30693@sun.ebtech.net>

For Bryn who mised it earlier
Its harder to do this for the Zho's and the Vargr since their worlds 
are off map to the north.
However roughly you are seeing most of the Vargr ground forces 
from one state.

I have yet to look at the Darrians or the Droyne.

I have been looking at my FFW game and deduced the following 
about Imperial and Zhodani Colonial ship squadrons.

Multi billion planets get
1BR 1CR and either an extra CR or AC or TT
Billion planets get 1BR and 1CR
100 Million planets get a CR

If you apply the same standard (doubled to show a lack of Imperial 
level fleet) to the Sword Worlds you get the in game units (mostly). 
 I also used the charts published in the Journal to figure out where 
the
ground troops probably came from. Here are the results:

Name		Total R's		Army in Game units

Tizon		2CR			4th Cav Corps TL10
Narsil		2BR 2CR 2AC	1st Inf, 2nd Arm, 5th Elite Arm 		
             Corps TL10
Anduril		2CR			TL11
Joyeuse	none			Joyeuse Inf Brigade TL10			
Gram		2BR 2CR		3rd Arm Cav, 7th Arm Inf, 6th Arm	
             Corps, Gram Inf Brigade TL11
Sacnoth	2BR 2CR		TL13
Sting		2CR			TL10
Entrope	2BR 2CR 2TT	TL13

All corps except the 6th have a strength of 100, the 6th is only a 50.

1TT TL13, 2BR TL13, 7CR TL10-11 do not have game counters.
I assume they form the other 2 fleets.

1. I assume this is a use of Entrope's wealth and tech with the 
units being built and manned from other Sword worlds mostly 
Sacnoth the other tech 12 world.  

2. This also explains the lack of tech 12 ground troops.  They are 
missing because they are ships' crews instead.  Sacnoth opting for 
advanced ships over advanced ground troops.  Too bad these could 
have been jump troops.

3. The Joyeuse Fleet is actually manned by Sacnoth and built 
using Sacnoth and Entrope's wealth and tech.	 Joyeuse itself is too 
small to have its own fleet.

4. Note Sword World assault troops are the two brigades 
carried to the planetary surface by streamlined BR's. or on deep 
strikes by nonstreamlined BR's.

5. Note the lack of division sized units that could have been carried 
on
the BR's for deep strikes.

6. The senior Sword admiral is named Riksdattar which in Icelandic 
means she is the daughter of Rik.  SO the senior Sword World 
admiral is a woman which implies not all Sword World women hit a 
glass ceiling.

7. All the Sword World admirals have a positive measure of tactical 
skill.  From fighting each other?

8. The map forces them to attack through the Saurus choke point 
when it would be easier and faster to stage out of Dyrnwyn and get 
to Lanth via Tavonni or Arba.

9. The Sword World BR's primarily have a defense of 8 equal to the 
toughest in the game in spite of their low tech level.

Jeff



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 19:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Thu Jun 20 18:16:05 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS HG & Stealth
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17C8C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Has anyone come up with a High Guard fix for Stealth capability? 

Maybe like armour factor save that it requires EP to run and the modifier
comes off the DM to hit or something. 

Mikey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 19:20:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Jun 20 18:20:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Solar Sail question for Ship Rodeo
In-Reply-To: <000701c216e8$3d3b37b0$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <20620.174454.2c1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I am in need of cost, weight and space required for a deployable solar sail
> at TTL D for a ship running in the area of 100 to 200 DT.  Any help would be
> appreciated...

There are a *lot* of variables.

To start with, the size of the sail depends on the desired thrust, the
density of the sail material (grams per square meter), and how close to
what type of star it'll be used.

Different types of stars will provide different thrusts at the same
distance. The brighter the star the higher the thrust provided by
photon pressure.

But there's also thrust provided by the stellat wind. And *that* varies
all over the place. I'm not sure if it varies in any sort of regular
way by spectral class.

Maybe one of our resident astronomers can help?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 19:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Thu Jun 20 18:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo -- two more from the Zho's
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEPNHNAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEDNHOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Permission granted to post on websites

Lest I forget, these ships were made using Mr.
Moffatt-Vallance's excellent High Guard Shipyard.


The Tiriodi is a frequently found Zhodane fighter craft, Fast and well
armoured
the Tiriodi  has two extra command couches aboard and usually carry an
electronics
crewman as well as a commander, who is not infrequently a Psionic.


The Silvilee is a open framework with a small computer and engines
attatched.
Passengers wear vacc suits and tether themselves to the framework, while
cargo
is attached by tie downs or nets.  Zhodane vacc suit training includes how
to
be a passenger in one without needing attention from a trained supervisor.


Ship: Red_Leader Fife
Class: Tiriodi
Type: Fighter
Architect: jml
Tech Level: 14

USP
         FT-0306J11-600000-30000-0 MCr 43.775 25 Tons
Bat Bear                   1       Crew: 1
Bat                        1       TL: 14

Cargo: 1.000 Fuel: 4.500 EP: 4.500 Agility: 3 Pulse Lasers
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.438   Cost in Quantity: MCr 35.020


Detailed Description

TONNAGE
25.000 tons standard, 350.000 cubic meters, Cylinder Configeration

CREW
Pilot

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-18, 4.500 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
No Bridge Installed, Model/2 Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMARMENT
1 Triple Pulse Laser Turret in 1 Battery (Factor-3)

DEFENCES
Armoured Hull (Factor-6)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
0.250 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 30 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
3 Acceleration Couches, 1.000 Ton Cargo

COST
MCr 44.213 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.438), MCr 35.020 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
13 Weeks Singly, 11 Weeks in Quantity

Ship: One_J_KK
Class: Silvilee
Type: Utility
Architect: jml
Tech Level: 14

USP
         UT-0701111-000000-00000-0 MCr 14.625 15 Tons
Bat Bear                           Crew: 1
Bat                                TL: 14

Cargo: 2.500 Fuel: 1.000 EP: 0.150 Agility: 1

Architects Fee: MCr 0.146   Cost in Quantity: MCr 11.700


Detailed Description

TONNAGE
15.000 tons standard, 210.000 cubic meters, Dispersed Structure
Configeration

CREW
Pilot

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 1G Manuever, Power plant-1, 0.150 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
No Bridge Installed, Model/2 Computer

HARDPOINTS
None

ARMARMENT
None

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
0.150 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 30 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
15 Acceleration Couches, 2.500 Tons Cargo

COST
MCr 14.771 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.146), MCr 11.700 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
8 Weeks Singly, 7 Weeks in Quantity


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 19:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Jun 20 18:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo Question
Message-ID: <F523F2O7n8L5Ukb1EZs0000a074@hotmail.com>

From: "Anthony Colosetti" <acoloset@kent.edu>

     "I am currently finishing up a set of deck plans for the Racing Yacht I 
submitted and I have a few questions.  Is there any interest in such 
things?"


Mr. Colosetti,

     Yes, yes, a thousand times yes!
     Appending deck plans to an entry posted to the TML did cross my feeble 
mind, but the difficulties crossed the weary Whipsnadian wetware right 
behind.  I tried to add "verbal deckplans" to my entry instead.

     "If so, is there anyone who would be willing to host them for me?"

     Here's hoping so.

     "Thanks to everyone involved in this Rodeo, it's the most exciting 
thing I've seen on the TML for quite a long time!"

     Everyone who had come to play so far has done a sooper-dooper job!  I'm 
sure there are plenty of other entries in the pipeline too.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 19:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Jun 20 18:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS HG & Stealth
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17C8C@r1clex01.cbr.defe
 nce.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020620203533.009825a0@minn.net>

At 09:28 AM 6/21/2002 +1000, you wrote:
>Has anyone come up with a High Guard fix for Stealth capability? 
>
>Maybe like armour factor save that it requires EP to run and the modifier
>comes off the DM to hit or something. 
>
>Mikey

Sounds like you are thinking of something like a cloaking device.

I've considered introducing Stealth at TL-9. 

Stealth could only be used on needle/wedge configuration hulls. Stealth
would double the cost of the hull, the bridge, weapons, and the manuever
drive.

In combat, stealth would modify die rolls by 2 against attacks on the
stealth ship.


Les


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 19:38:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Jun 20 18:38:22 2002
Subject: [TML] fueling ships
Message-ID: <F213aL9Emr1KMAln6P50001f5ec@hotmail.com>

From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net>

     "I remember sitting in the Azores and pumping fuel for at least 14 
hours."


Mr. Carlino,

     Plenty of time for that speedboat full of explosives to come knocking, 
drat it!
     Thanks for the numbers, they've been engraved on my hard drive.  My 
ship could only be refueled in months.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. "Neutron Burning" Whipsnade

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 19:41:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun 20 18:41:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Handwaving ourselves into the future
Message-ID: <20020620.183835.-78845.2.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:34:42 +0900 Volker <volker@greimann.de> writes:
> 
> > The first fan in line to see the 1201 am viewing of Star Wars: 
Episode 2
> > at the UA Breckenridge Village Theater in Little Rock, Arkansas:
> 
> > a Mark Miller.
> 
> "A", or "The" ?

Ah, who really cares about a guy named Mark?

Now if he's "Thee Marc Miller" that's another story. :~)

Turokan


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 19:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Jun 20 18:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Uploading (was: Query)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020620153124.009f2be0@mailhost.efn.org>
References: <20020620221725.709DB27BD6@mail.travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020620153124.009f2be0@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <20020621114505.A27962@freeman.little-possums.net>

Kelly St.Clair wrote:
> Firstly, I don't believe actual transfer is possible; that implies
> things like souls,

Actually, identity transfer requires no such thing.  In fact, if a
"soul" existed, it would make transfer a very problematic concept
indeed, since there would be no guarantee that any such thing is
transferred to the electronic version.


> Much more likely, the result would be a copy of my brainstate going
> on to do keen stuff while I wake up with a vague headache and live
> out the rest of my mortal life.

Another equally valid way to look at it, is that you get to live on in
the computational world while a copy of you wakes up with a vague
headache.  They are *both* future versions of you, just different
futures.


> Second, much as I hesitate to have my vision laser-corrected today,
> I would worry about difficulties with the procedure.

Yes; this is my biggest difficulty with the idea.  I'd want to see a
lot of other people do it safely first, and I'd want to convinved that
they really were virtually identical in mental states (at least at
first).


> I wonder how many of them would be willing to spend their eternity
> in a VR of equivalent sophistication to (say) Doom.

The VR would be improving with time, and the initial quality would
certainly have to be far better than Doom, simply by the complexity
required to support human cognition.


>  Even in a convincing sim, I think "I" would miss the little random
> touches and emergent phenomena Nature provides.

What makes you think that they won't be present?  Randomness and
emergent phenomena are properties of basically *all* complex systems,
computational or natural.


> And finally, having seen how I have changed mentally over the last
> decade or two (and not being altogether pleased with some of those
> shifts), I cannot imagine what "I" would be like after a century or
> a millenium of bodiless existence

People change.  Perhaps you prefer to change only into a pile of
rotting organic compounds after a few decades, probably preceded by
one or both of severe mental or physical degradation lasting years.
Do your moments of atavistic terror cover that sort of thought?

I'd prefer a different sort of change, thank you very much :)


> But I am still only thirty-something, still only vaguely mortal.
> Perhaps these attitudes too will change with time and an aging,
> failing body.

Maybe.  But I am only thirty-something, too, and have no undesirable
physical or mental afflictions.  I doubt any such option will come
along in my lifetime, so the question is really academic.  But if it
did, and was demonstrated to be relatively safe, I strongly suspect
I'd do it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 19:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Jun 20 18:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: FFW Forces
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020620141807.009f11c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEFEEBAA.carlino@cox.net>

>That's not how it was written in GF for a good reason.  A huge chunk of the
>Imperium is below the maximum common TL (12 in GURPS/15 otherwise)  Getting
>enough recruits with the background and ability to learn to use the hi-tech
>equipment will be a stumbling block.
>
>Also, worlds are not going to agree to getting stripped of all their armed
>forces. What are you going to do with a TL 6 armored division anyway?  If
>you want to make that assumption, that all the units are in fact Imperial,
>you should adjust the BE down based on the number of TLs they need to be
>raised (p. 80)  You will still get a larger force, but it will be smaller
>than using the raw numbers.
>
>Remember that GTL 10 covers Traveller TL 10-13. That should be the lowest
>TL seen in an Imperial force.
>
>So, for Louzy, instead of 20,000 TL 6 BEs, you get 3,225 TL 10 BEs (or a
>bare 1,000 TL 12 BEs)
>
>The point I was trying to make with these rules is that there is a lot more
>to arming a force than handing them advanced rifles and tanks. There needs
>to be a great deal invested in training and support. This lowers the number
>of units you can equip at the higher TL..

While I certainly agree that a modern military force requires a good deal of
training, I must repeat my oft stated opinion that it is unreasonable to
believe that a (G)TL8 world will (barring religious knowledge suppression)
teach (G)TL12 science and engineering in its schools. Just as my friend who
taught physics in sub-Sahara Africa taught not (G)TL4 physics, but (G)TL-7/8
physics, so a teacher on a (G)TL-8 world will teach concepts and discoveries
of modern (G)TL-12 physics, not the outmoded Standard Model and incomplete
quantum based understanding of physics we have.

I'm sure that a justification can be found for reducing the number of BE's
on lower tech worlds, I just don't believe that the barbarian disadvantage
is one of them.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 19:59:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Jun 20 18:59:26 2002
Subject: [TML] New Rodeo Deadline- YEEHAW!
Message-ID: <F2658FNpyLAPDVXLuSb00023e68@hotmail.com>

Fillies and Colts,

     Well, strap me to a pig and roll me in the MUD!  Woo-wee, have we been 
gittin' lots n' lots of entries for our lil' rodeo on the TML!  Why, there's 
so many, we've nearly got ourselves a STAMPEDE!  YEE-HAW!
     The corrals are gittin' FULL!  It's gittin' tuff to remember all the 
purty lil' ships you've already SEEN.  And the MANURE, well, we cain't 
shovel those goodies up FAST ENOUGH!  WOO-EEEEEEEE!
     So, Calico Dan Roseberry and I have bin forced t' change the Rodeo's 
deadline.  Tisn't 15 JULY 02 anymore, the new deadline is:

               Your local midnight 30 JUNE 2002

If'n yer entry is time stamped by your e-mail proggie BEFORE your local 
midnight 30 JUNE 2002, yer all right pardner!
     But wait, there's MORE!  We're all going to VOTE too!  YEE-HAW!
That's right, VOTE!  Between 1 JULY and 15 JULY 2002, all you have to do is 
post your choices to the TML in a win-place-show format.
     Right now, all we've got is the "Best in Show" catagory, but Calico Dan 
and I need ideas for other catagories too!  Best "Military Design", mebbe?  
Or best "Civvie?  How's 'bout "The Next Ship For My PCs"?  Send along your 
suggestions and we'll choose 2 or 4 by popular acclaim.
     So, you've got until 30 JUNE 2002, next Monday, to design and post your 
best foal, calf, or piglet.  After that, we've got two weeks to vote on the 
ribbons!
     Post early and post often!
     Vote early and vote often!
     See ya'll 'round the Long Branch Saloon, pardners! (random gunfire)


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. Whipsnade
     foreman of the Lazy Eight Ranch, Brewery, and Pawn Shoppe

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 20:05:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Jun 20 19:05:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020620085652.009f4670@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020619215602.00cb5958@192.168.0.1>
 <RELAY39vXsFFsAitVGe00097cb3@relay3.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020620215419.026d4e48@192.168.0.1>

At 08:57 AM 6/20/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>At 09:56 PM 6/19/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>At 04:34 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, markc@peak.org wrote:
>>>Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:
>>> > Does making a Famille Spofulam Supplement count?  >:D
>>>[URL removed to save lives and preserve property]
>>>BAD JESSE! NO BELT-FED!!
>>Man! That's harsh!
>I forget, have you ever seen Jesse around automatic weapons?  He's like a 
>kid on Christmas waiting to open his presents.

Not in person (being an East Coaster), but I have seen the pictures and 
videos on his site.
He did look and sound like a happy camper, as did you Mr. Berry. :-)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend
that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 20:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Jun 20 19:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Handwaving ourselves into the future
Message-ID: <3D128ADA.75C2DCF2@mail.cswnet.com>

> The first fan in line to see the 1201 am viewing of Star Wars: Episode 2
> at the UA Breckenridge Village Theater in Little Rock, Arkansas:

> a Mark Miller.


>>>"A", or "The" ?<<<

Definetly "A", but I was still amused by the whole thing.

Been on a long vacation? I sent that post out some time ago.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 20:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Jun 20 19:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU setting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0206200435260.6257-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEFGEBAA.carlino@cox.net>

How about Pixie was the victim of an immense natural disaster or act of war?
The Class A shipyard, with its destroyed shipyard, sits idle and empty.
Obsolete, empty hulks sit in the Navy Base. The only survivors, a group of
miners, and their family huddle underground, barely surviving. The scouts
still run XBoats through the system, supported by a pair of tenders which
are station out of a nearby system.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 20:27:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Thu Jun 20 19:27:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo Question
In-Reply-To: <F523F2O7n8L5Ukb1EZs0000a074@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501c218cb$00d60950$0b01a8c0@duck>

In the back of the Regency Sourcebook, the statistics for the Daryen 
Patrol Cruiser are given.  I don't have FF&S, so I can only go by the 
description.  I thought it was a pretty cool ship, so here is its 
writeup using AMV's HGS (Book 5).  I have taken the liberty to make 
up one piece of TL16 information: the manipulator.  The rest of the
ship is effectively "just" TL15.

Permission granted to anyone to use or post this design as desired.
I did steal it myself, after all.  :-)

Class: Barekdoldin
Type: Patrol Cruiser
Architect: Mike West
Tech Level: 16
Design: Book 5 (modified)

DT-53466J2-000001-40203-0 MCr 506.31 500 Tons
Batteries       1 2 1 1
Crew: 12 TL: 16
Cargo: 7 Fuel: 230 EP:30 Agility: 1
Craft: 1 x 10 Ton Manipulator Pod
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Architects Fee: MCr 5.063   Cost in Quantity: MCr 405.048

HULL 
500 tons standard, 7000 cubic meters, Streamlined Cylinder Configuration 

CREW 
Pilot, Navigator, 4 Engineers, Medic, 5 Gunners
Room for 16 Marines when using double-occupancy.

ENGINEERING 
Jump-4, 6G Manuever, Power plant-6, 30 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS 
Bridge, Model/9fib Computer 

HARDPOINTS 
5 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT 
Particle Accelerator Turrent (Factor-2)
2 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organized into 2 batteries (Factor-4)
1 Fixed Triple Missle Bay (Factor-3)
1 Tractor/Repulsor Manipulator (Factor-1)

DEFENCES 
None

CRAFT 
1 10.0 ton Manipulator Pod

FUEL 
230 Tons Fuel (4 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance) 
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant 

MISCELLANEOUS
14 Staterooms
7 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS 
None 

COST 
MCr 506.310 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 5.063)
MCr 405.048 in Quantity

COMMENTS 
Built at Daryen.  Used by the Daryen Confederation to demonstrate their
technology.

SPECIAL RULES:
The Manipulator can exert 40G/tons of force on an object within 100km of 
the ship.  This means it can exert 4G of thrust on the 10 ton pod as long 
as the pod is within 100km.  In combat the Manipulator functions as a 
factor-1 repulsor battery.
The pod is unpowered and must be moved with the Manipulator.  It can be 
configured to either hold 10 tons of cargo, or to carry up to 20 persons.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 20:30:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Jun 20 19:30:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Roseberry's Rodeo Entry#9 WWYA
Message-ID: <3D128F00.DE14F184@mail.cswnet.com>

Well, I suppose its time to throw this one in.

Jeff Rowse writes:
>Please, puh-leaze! let me and/or the TML see it!!
And latter, Alan Spik writes:
>Post it! Post it! Post em All!!!!!

As you wish...

This entry has been toned down and modified a bit. 
There is a hot spicy version. Its locked away in my mind and will never
see the light of day.

Entry#9

Wicked Wanda,mild-spicy version.

Note: Certain details of the ships operations have been deleted for
security reasons by the Ministry of Justice. 

Ship: Wicked Wanda
Class: Wicked Wanda
Type: Attack Yacht
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 13

USP
         YA-41235B2-300000-44004-0 MCr 371.807 469 Tons
Bat Bear                   11   1   Crew: 16
Bat                        11   1   TL: 13

Cargo: 10.145 Passengers: 11 Fuel: 117.250 EP: 23.450 Agility: 3 
Marines: 4
Craft: 1 x 4T air/raft, 1 x 6T speeder, 1 x 40T pinnace
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 3.431   Cost in Quantity: MCr 303.190


Detailed Description

HULL
469.000 tons standard, 6,566.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge
Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 3 Engineers, 2 Stewards, Medic, 3 Gunners, 4 Marines,
1 Other Crew [all names deleted for security reasons].

ENGINEERING
Jump-2, 3G Manuever, Power plant-5, 23.450 EP, Agility 3

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/2fib Computer

HARDPOINTS
4 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
2 Triple Missile Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-4), 1 Triple
Beam Laser Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-4), 1 Single Fusion
Gun Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-4)

DEFENCES
Armoured Hull (Factor-3)

CRAFT
1 4.000 ton air/raft (Cost of MCr 0.600), 1 6.000 ton speeder (Cost of
MCr 6.270), 1 40.000 ton pinnace (Cost of MCr 21.850)

FUEL
117.250 Tons Fuel (2 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
21.0 Staterooms,  10 High Passengers plus owner aboard for a total of
11, 10.145 Tons Cargo, 10 low berths [not used for commercial purposes].

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
2 "Playrooms" [details deleted for security reasons] (12.000 tons, Cost
MCr 1.500), 1 Interior Design (0.000 ton,  Cost MCr 7.035)  
1 Swimming Pool (6.000 tons,  0.003 Energy Point, Cost MCr 0.084),
1 Stores (2.595 tons)  

COST
MCr 346.518 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 3.431), MCr 274.470 in
Quantity, plus MCr 28.720 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
88 Weeks Singly, 70 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
Owner Aboard[name deleted for security reasons]  has a 12dt stateroom
Subcraft crew must be drawn from ships crew.
This is design is intended to be a combination of the standard yacht and
Type P corsair.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
subcraft name: ww.1
subcraft class: TL13 Speeder
subcraft type: Speeder

usp
QB-0105501-000000-00000-0 MCr6.27 6dt
no weapons                          Crew=1 TL13
Fuel=1dt EP=.3 Agility=5 Fuel Scoops
Cargo=1dt Passenger seat=1
Mod1 computer=1 No bridge installed.
Note: weapons could be installed on the speeder; simply eliminate
the cargo hold and add sandcaster[s] and/or missile rack[s]. The 
passenger seat then becomes the gunners seat.

Architects Fee MCr.063 Cost in Quantity MCr5.016

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
subcraft name: ww.2
subcraft class: TL13 pinnace 
subcraft type: pinnace

usp
QY-0104411-000000-00003-0 MCr21.85 40dt
single battery                        Crew=4 TL13
Fuel=1.6 EP=1.6 Agility=4 Fuel Scoops
Passenger Couches=30 Cargo=4.8
Crew=4 [pilot, gunner, 2 stewards]
Bridge had 2 couches; 2 extra couches have been added
for stewards.
Mod1 computer=1 Bridge installed.

Architects Fee MCr.219 Cost in Quantity MCr17.48

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 21:15:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Jun 20 20:15:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Roseberry's Rodeo Entry#9 WWYA
In-Reply-To: <3D128F00.DE14F184@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020620221343.00986740@minn.net>

At 09:27 PM 6/20/2002 -0500, Roseberry wrote:
>Well, I suppose its time to throw this one in.
>
>Entry#9
>
>Wicked Wanda,mild-spicy version.
>
>Note: Certain details of the ships operations have been deleted for
>security reasons by the Ministry of Justice. 
>
>Ship: Wicked Wanda
>Class: Wicked Wanda
>Type: Attack Yacht
>Architect: Dan Roseberry
>Tech Level: 13

I'll bet the science officer's name is Homer.


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 21:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Jun 20 20:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: FFW Forces
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEFEEBAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020620141807.009f11c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020620201108.009ec430@mindspring.com>

At 09:51 PM 6/20/02 -0400, you wrote:

>While I certainly agree that a modern military force requires a good deal of
>training, I must repeat my oft stated opinion that it is unreasonable to
>believe that a (G)TL8 world will (barring religious knowledge suppression)
>teach (G)TL12 science and engineering in its schools. Just as my friend who
>taught physics in sub-Sahara Africa taught not (G)TL4 physics, but (G)TL-7/8
>physics, so a teacher on a (G)TL-8 world will teach concepts and discoveries
>of modern (G)TL-12 physics, not the outmoded Standard Model and incomplete
>quantum based understanding of physics we have.

You're missing the point.  The WiQ has to ship in *everything* that can't 
be manufactured locally, bring in people to train the troops who are going 
to operate the gear, pay to have spare parts ship, and if a war cuts of the 
shipping lanes?  Better hope your supply dumps don't get hit.

Take the Saudi army in Desert Storm.  Everything they had they bought from 
us.  They needed constant supply from the US.  Had we stopped coming, and 
the Iraqis came over the border, the Royal Saudi Tank Club would have died 
in droves.

The BE reduction for higher TL forces is less about the cost of training, 
and more about the cost of brining in the gear.

It isn't even necessarily religious repression that keeps TL's 
down.  Mexico sits right next to one of the most advance nations on Earth, 
and lags behind in TL due to poverty.  Go further south, and you see more 
nations that, due to a combination of poverty and warfare, are still 
capable of producing TL 5-6 forces.  We happily sell them arms, but the 
cost of outfitting *one* of their soldiers in TL 8 gear is the same as 
supply 4 or 5 troops with local tech.

This is canonical, and the cost of upgrading BE's was drawn directly from 
Far Trader.

 >I'm sure that a justification can be found for reducing the number of BE's
 >on lower tech worlds, I just don't believe that the barbarian disadvantage
 >is one of them.

Well, if you look at the BE table, you see that mid-tech worlds get more 
local forces than equivalent worlds of higher or lower TL.  This is a 
combination of better ability to support large forces and the need to have 
more troops under arms to achieve any sort of military mission.  So, Taking 
a world like Louzy and upgrading it's forcing, you still have a formidable 
force after the reduction.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 21:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Jun 20 20:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Roseberry's Rodeo Entry#9 WWYA
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020620221343.00986740@minn.net>
References: <3D128F00.DE14F184@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020620232537.01b39008@192.168.0.1>

At 10:13 PM 6/20/2002 -0500, Leslie Bates wrote:
>At 09:27 PM 6/20/2002 -0500, Roseberry wrote:
> >Well, I suppose its time to throw this one in.
> >
> >Entry#9
> >
> >Wicked Wanda,mild-spicy version.
> >
> >Note: Certain details of the ships operations have been deleted for
> >security reasons by the Ministry of Justice.
> >
> >Ship: Wicked Wanda
> >Class: Wicked Wanda
> >Type: Attack Yacht
> >Architect: Dan Roseberry
> >Tech Level: 13
>
>I'll bet the science officer's name is Homer.

and "1 Other Crew" is a petite blonde human female...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 22:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Jun 20 21:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memory (was Re: Query)
Message-ID: <178.a154770.2a4402ac@aol.com>

Doug and Larsen typed thusly:

>>     "As for my perfect memory; store it!  Have a library where everything
>>is compartmentalized."
>
>     Now that is an elegant solution. The memories are available on demand
>and are not on-line 24/7.  The type of memory you have is a conscious 
>decision on your part and not a feature set in stone.
>

I am reminded by all this discussion of a short story in the post-mortem 
tribute collection to Roger Zelazny. This story, set in the same universe as 
Lord of Light, explores the human side of memory editing, memory clones, 
interstellar travel, and death. Fascinating read, and of course I can't find 
it on my shelves at the moment...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Jun 20 22:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Jun 20 21:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Ping: Graphic Artist
References: <F16kmx42WGYwvimdzhU0000746e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D135491.AB553F4C@mindspring.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>
>      Would the kind soul who graciously offered to create award certificates
> for the Great TML NPC Contest please contact me off List?
>      I have a cunning plan...
>
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

This bodes ill for the peace and security of the Sector.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 04:46:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Jun 21 03:46:05 2002
Subject: [TML] HGS test request
In-Reply-To: <20020620155143.E51A227AA8@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <004701c2186f$2dde8730$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <3D1380BB.7842.9E68745@localhost>

On 20 Jun 2002, at 10:51, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I am able to get 1.13 to run uncer XP pro, too, but I'm also the one
> that can't get 1.14 to load. I get a kernal32.dll error every time.  

> Being unable to run 1.14, I can't report on its features. <g>

> Andrew, I do have a question, though. Once upon a time, I was playing
> with HGS and I'm sure there was a "T20" compatability mode in there.
> That seems to have disappeared from the 1.13 version that I can get to
> run. Assuming I'm not dreaming, what happened?

No, its there. Its just since the T20 rules are not fully implimented in 1.13, I 
locked it out in the release. However if you pass it "T20" as a command 
line parameter it will unlock it.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 04:48:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Jun 21 03:48:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Where is HGS 1.14?
In-Reply-To: <200206201627.IWJ01331@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D1380BB.490.9E6874F@localhost>

On 20 Jun 2002, at 12:27, John T. Kwon wrote:

> I have 1.13.  Where can I download 1.14?

>From the ct-starships list's file area (sorry I don't have a url). Its still a beta 
version, so I've not made it widely available.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 04:51:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Jun 21 03:51:25 2002
Subject: [TML] HGS test request
In-Reply-To: <3D122CF7.92BAAC5F@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D1380BB.13275.9E6874F@localhost>

On 20 Jun 2002, at 14:28, Roseberry wrote:

> I'm with you Mr Colosetti. I got 1.13. I got a odd message when I first
> downloaded it [can't remember what it said] but I leave it in the zip
> file thingey and it works fine. It does not work well for some reason
> when its not in the zip file thingey.

Could you run it out of the zip file thingey and see what it says. Thanks


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 04:53:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Jun 21 03:53:55 2002
Subject: [TML] HGS test request
In-Reply-To: <004701c2186f$2dde8730$1c577b83@Gideon>
Message-ID: <3D1380BB.464.9E68745@localhost>

On 20 Jun 2002, at 11:28, Anthony Colosetti wrote:

> I use 1.13 just fine on my laptop running XP.  What is the significant
> change between 1.13 and 1.14?

Changes in Version 1.14
 Memory leak in Spinal Mount form fixed
 Error in additional fuel calculations fixed
 Error in reporting of mixed turret sandcasters fixed
 Error in K=92kree power plants fixed
 Error in Turret Weapon factors fixed
 Added support for T20 design rules
 Added Clear and Restore options to the comments form
 Added Clear All option to file menu (this will reset all values of the sh=
ip to 
zero)
 Allowed the use of Book 5 crew rules for ships of any tonnage
 Allowed the use of Book 2 crew rules for ships up to 5,000 tons  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 04:57:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Mellman)
Date: Fri Jun 21 03:57:38 2002
Subject: [TML] a question for the Rocket Scientists:  What's the purpost of aerodynamic hulls?
Message-ID: <200206210753.DAA07842@shell.cinternet.net>

I'm strictly a CT player so maybe MT or TNE or T-whatever has explained
this, but what's the purpose of aerodynamic hulls?  LBB2 maneuver drives
are capable of a minimum of 1G of sustained acceleration.  But supposedly
open structures can't deal with atmospheres.  But why not?  While still in
high orbit just use your maneuver drives to slow your speed down to zero
(relative to the planet's surface), and then drop in.  Then you can use
your maneuver drives vertically to slow your drop speed down to whatever
you want.

Sure our Space Shuttle, and our Apollo, Gemini, and Mercury spacecraft
were all aerodynamic, but that's because they used the atmosphere to
slow them down.  And that was done so they didn't have to carry up all
the fuel needed to slow down.

But Traveller era maneuver drives have all that solved.  So there's no
need to conserve fuel (at least not for the 15 or so minutes it would
take to slow you down), so there's no problem with slowing your speed
from your basic 25,000 mph orbital speed to your (fastest) rotational
speed of 1,000 mph.

And we know that any ship design, even open structures, can withstand
the 1G of force acting on them while it's sitting on the planets surface
(because they can withstand the 1G of force of their maneuver engines).

What am I missing?  What's the purpose of an aerodynamic hull other than
to look really spiffy?



 ...........................................................................
  Bill Mellman
  mailto:tml@idbin.com
  http://www.mellman.net/bill/
  http://www.geocities.com/mellmanw/Traveller
 ...........................................................................



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 05:02:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Jun 21 04:02:10 2002
Subject: [TML] ARES Peacemaker
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020620221343.00986740@minn.net>
References: <3D128F00.DE14F184@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020621055424.00972790@minn.net>

Ship: J.D. Ripper
Class: ARES Peacemaker
Type: Planetary Bombardment Ship
Architect: Leslie Bates
Tech Level: 9

BB-23  J.D. RIPPER  BB-D2145C2-500000-40007-0 MCr 4,433.434 4.8 KTons
   Battteries Bearing                 4   2   Crew: 56
   Batteries                          4   2   TL: 9

Cargo: 31 Fuel: 1,444 EP: 240 Agility: 4 Shipboard Security Detail: 5
Craft: 2 x 50T Cutter
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Architects Fee: MCr 43.974   Cost in Quantity: MCr 3,553.948

Detailed Description

HULL:			4,800 tons standard, 67,200 cubic meters, Cone Configuration
CREW:			12 Officers, 44 Ratings
ENGINEERING:		Jump-1, 4G Manuever, Power plant-5, 240 EP, Agility 4
AVIONICS:		Bridge, Model/3fib Computer
HARDPOINTS:		4 100-ton bays, 8 Hardpoints
ARMAMENT:		2 100-ton Missile Bays (Factor-7), 8 Triple Beam Laser Turrets
organised into 4 Batteries (Factor-4)
DEFENCES:		Armoured Hull (Factor-5)
CRAFT:			2 50 ton Cutters (Crew of 2, Cost of MCr 18)
FUEL:			1,444.000 Tons Fuel (2 parsecs jump and 56 days endurance, plus 4
tons of additional fuel) On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification
Plant
MISCELLANEOUS:	31 Staterooms, 31 Tons Cargo
COST:			MCr 4,441.409 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 43.974), MCr
3,517.948 in Quantity, plus MCr 36.000 of Carried Craft
CONSTRUCTION TIME:	147 Weeks Singly, 118 Weeks in Quantity
COMMENTS:		TL-9 A Joint project of the ARES
(American-Russian-European-Sinic) Consortium , the Peacemaker is optimized
for planetary bombardment woth two of the 100 ton bay serving as magazines
for deadfall ordinance. Peacemakers are usually named for outstanding air
force generals.

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 05:05:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Jun 21 04:05:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Uploading (was: Query)
In-Reply-To: <20020621012606.41B9D27C00@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17LJav-0007no-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

"Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org> wrote:

> I'm not surprised Doug would want to give up his body, given an 
> alternative; by his own statements, he doesn't feel as if it's part of
> his self anymore, more like something that's trying to kill him.  (In
> a similar thread on rec.games.frp.misc, back when I still read that
> group, the inimitable Sea Wasp expressed similar sentiments and was
> confronted by a similar lack of understanding from the healthy
> readership-at-large.)

Interesting, I can see that point of view, although I have not 
encountered it before.  In the same situation, I'm certain I would 
share it.
 
> Firstly, I don't believe actual transfer is possible; that implies
> things like souls, the place for which in a scientific upload process
> is unclear.  Much more likely, the result would be a copy of my
> brainstate going on to do keen stuff while I wake up with a vague
> headache and live out the rest of my mortal life.  "You" don't get to
> climb inside the computer.  Second, much as I hesitate to have my
> vision laser-corrected today, I would worry about difficulties with
> the procedure.  What if both of us, me and the copy, wake up with a
> lobotomy?  Third, are you planning to wait until it's perfected? 
> Every posthumanist I've talked to jumps right to the "mature
> technology" stage of uploading; I wonder how many of them would be
> willing to spend their eternity in a VR of equivalent sophistication
> to (say) Doom.  Even in a convincing sim, I think "I" would miss the
> little random touches and emergent phenomena Nature provides.

I tend to agree.  I don't really believing that an uploaded copy of me 
would be me.  I'm quite happy with my brain, I want upgrades and 
add-ons to it, but I don't want to mess with the original equipment 
beyond what is necessary to connect said upgrades.  For the rest, 
I like the idea of having an organic body, I enjoy eating and other 
physical pleasures that machines simply don't experiences.  
However, I'd definitely like an improved organic body with better 
senses, no allergies, or similar minor annoying problems and w/o 
the specter of mortality.  Fortunately, I don't see any problem with 
what I want.  using similar tech, it will hopefully be fairly easy to 
stick Doug's brain in a nutrient vat and connect it up to a space 
ship.  With some good anagathics, you could likely keep a brain 
going for a good long time.  
 
> And finally, having seen how I have changed mentally over the last
> decade or two (and not being altogether pleased with some of those
> shifts), I cannot imagine what "I" would be like after a century or a
> millenium of bodiless existence - except perhaps as moments of vague
> atavistic terror.  I fear any immortal being, even one that started
> out as a facsimile of myself.

As long as it's mostly my brain and I still have my memories, I'll 
still consider myself me.  I'm far different that I was at age 15, and 
given the chance, Ill likely be even more different at age 1,000, but 
that doesn't bother me at all, life is change.  I consider my 
memories to be far more *me* than whatever personality or 
attitudes I happen to have in any particular decade.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 05:08:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Jun 21 04:08:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Uploading (was: Query)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020620153124.009f2be0@mailhost.efn.org>
References: <20020620221725.709DB27BD6@mail.travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020620153124.009f2be0@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <20020621194800.B28717@freeman.little-possums.net>

Kelly St.Clair wrote:
> Every posthumanist I've talked to jumps right to the "mature
> technology" stage of uploading; I wonder how many of them would be
> willing to spend their eternity in a VR of equivalent sophistication
> to (say) Doom.

I can see a number of moral problems with such research.  It is highly
likely that the first few thousand laboratory attempts will result in
very poor quality copies.  At some point, you have to start deciding
whether what you are creating is close enough to human that you no
longer have the right to delete such a failed attempt.

Even after the technology is perfected, I can easily see the poor
having a much lower quality environments than the rich.  Slower
hardware perhaps, fewer software tools to modify their environment
and/or themselves, poorer connectivity to other VR worlds, less
software security, worse physical security, and less ability to
interact with the physical world.  There are so many ways that
inequalities could (and almost certainly would) continue to divide
people.  More, perhaps, than a "natural" existence allows.

It is very easy to see black-market dealers in substandard upload
environments offering desperate people on the fringes of society their
chance at immortality.  Or even perfectly fine environments, with just
a few minor changes to your uploaded personality that you won't even
notice -- because they were *designed* so that you won't notice them.
Of *course* you love your new job . . .


Certainly, there is at least as much scope for virtual hells as for
heavens if such technology became commonplace.  As well as things that
defy classification along such a simple scale.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 05:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Jun 21 04:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Kriviet type
In-Reply-To: <F213aL9Emr1KMAln6P50001f5ec@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEFAHOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

In general the Zhodane design warships on a slightly different
basis then the Imperium does.  In general their ships are
built a TL 14 (GURPS 12), Jump 3 and Maneuver 6.  They
prefer armor over agility.  They carry a psionic commando
unit and boast a boat deck with enough small craft to land or
pick up the command in one lift.

Zhodane designs tend toward uniformity, a crew person should
with minimal training be able to transfer between ships
and even ship classes.

One common design type is the Kriviet type


11111111111
11111111111
11111111111
222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222
222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222
222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222
333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333
44444444444                                 5555555555
44444444444                                 5555555555
44444444444
44444444444
44444444444


legend
1   M drive, engineering quarters
2   Jump drive, fuel, main bridge, command staff
	quarters
3   Main -- Spinal -- weapon ( if applicable )
4   Mission specific space, cargo holds, backup bridge
5   Boat bay, Commando quarters

weapons turrets and bays are located as needed, with gunnery quarters
in 4 spaces

This design, referred to as the Hammer design in Imperial
documents, is followed by ships ranging form the
5000 ton Qulin Escort to the 450,000 ton Savasta battle cruiser
All of which have to same maneuver parameters

Notes

Zhodane ships names are 'painted' across the front of the 1 section
and on the flank on the 2 section.

The bridges are in no known case equipped with view ports, they are located
toward the front of the ship behind a section of cabins.

If the ship includes fighter craft, the launch tubes are in section 3

All known examples of the Kriviet type, have at least a pair of weapons
pointed rearward.

typically the rations are 20 percent 1, 40 percent 2, 10 percent 3,
20 percent 4, 10 percent 5, if there is no main gun the extra ten percent is
added to 2 or 4




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 05:13:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Jun 21 04:13:31 2002
Subject: [TML] SPA NOTICE [and Rodeo Update]
In-Reply-To: <F2601f3L0zGSOpD0mAp00001b66@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D13A81A.27522.A8051B5@localhost>

On 20 Jun 2002, at 22:32, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Well, maybe we can shift some blame onto Mr. Moffat-Vallance?  After all,
> his HGS program (a gift from SATAN I can see know) is responsible for most of
> the submiited designs.

Should I be looking out for my image in an upcoming Chick tract?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 05:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri Jun 21 04:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Attacking Ports
In-Reply-To: <20020621012606.41B9D27C00@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020621012606.41B9D27C00@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <fhv5hu4vac567lsj5jsms5qs0ars9nnrrq@4ax.com>

On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:23:05 -0700, Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

>Walt Smith wrote:
>> One possible reason: if you put your important infrastructure
>> at or outside the 100D limit, then an enemy commerce raider
>> can jump to it, nuke it, and jump out before your defenses
>> can react.

>The same applies to coastal ports, but we still don't see them built
>100 km inland.  Besides, any space station worth protecting is likely
>to have point defense, either inbuilt or in the form of craft
>patrolling nearby.  The chance of a nuke getting through is probably
>microscopic.

>Even attempting such an action would be an act of war, not just the
>usual scuffle that can be attributed to ECMs.  Directly attacking
>stationary civilian facilities in plain sight is an act for which
>they'd better be prepared for some large-scale retribution.

Really?  Like the US retaliation against Saudi Arabia for September 11?

(The hijackers/attackers were all Saudi citizens, led by a Saudi citizen,
whose ideology - a peculiarly Saudi strain of Islamic fundamentalism - had
been taught in Saudi-government-supported schools.)

Retaliation for acts of war is a political act, and will depend on the
political will and interests of the attacked.  Iran committed an act of war
against the United States, and all we did was pick up our marbles and go
home - which is what they wanted, anyway.

Saudi Arabia still has done nothing concrete against either the mentality
or the infrastructure that allowed Al-Qaeda to develop.

And the United States is willfully blind to this.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 05:20:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri Jun 21 04:20:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Rodeo Question
In-Reply-To: <20020621012606.41B9D27C00@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020621012606.41B9D27C00@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <vb06hucbifu41jlipl300vbn0g8jc6buav@4ax.com>

On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:23:05 -0700, Bruce Johnson
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

>Anthony Colosetti wrote:
>> I am currently finishing up a set of deck plans for the Racing Yacht I
>> submitted and I have a few questions.  Is there any interest in such things?
>> (I never use any ship without deckplans personally.)  If so, is there anyone
>> who would be willing to host them for me?  Thanks to everyone involved in
>> this Rodeo, it's the most exciting thing I've seen on the TML for quite a
>> long time!

>Why yes there is; there's even an entire mailing list devoted to such. 
>go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and look for 'deckplans'

>As for posting them, I suspect Jeff Zeitlin is more than willing to put 
>them on Freelance Traveller.

Yup.  No question.

>What format are they in?

This is an important question; I can read anything that Corel Draw 7 can,
and can convert to GIF - but I need that CD7-compatible format to start
with.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 05:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Jun 21 04:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] a question for the Rocket Scientists:  What's the
 purpost of aerodynamic hulls?
In-Reply-To: <200206210753.DAA07842@shell.cinternet.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020621061900.0098bd50@minn.net>

At 03:53 AM 6/21/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>
>I'm strictly a CT player so maybe MT or TNE or T-whatever has explained
>this, but what's the purpose of aerodynamic hulls?  

>From the LBB's through the first edition of HG it was basically assumed
that the maneuver drive was a reaction system. In High Guard 1st Edition
you could actually hurt someone with the maneuver drive.

That's my 0.02 Cr.


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 05:26:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Jun 21 04:26:31 2002
Subject: [TML] SPA NOTICE [and Rodeo Update]
In-Reply-To: <3D13A81A.27522.A8051B5@localhost>
References: <F2601f3L0zGSOpD0mAp00001b66@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020621062001.0098c7e0@minn.net>

At 10:26 PM 6/21/2002 +1200, you wrote:
>On 20 Jun 2002, at 22:32, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>
>>      Well, maybe we can shift some blame onto Mr. Moffat-Vallance?
After all,
>> his HGS program (a gift from SATAN I can see know) is responsible for
most of
>> the submiited designs.
>
>Should I be looking out for my image in an upcoming Chick tract?

Yes. <evil grin>


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 06:00:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Fri Jun 21 05:00:07 2002
Subject: [TML] and now for something Subtle: Lady Sally Pleasure Liner
In-Reply-To: <3D128F00.DE14F184@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D125BD9.15234.13829EF@localhost>

for something a little less subtle, heres the 
Lady Sally McGee Pleasure liner

and just for truth in advertising, it looks like 
the starship in Flesh Gordon.


GURPS Traveller Ship Data Sheet:

Class Name: Lady Sally
Type: Pleasure Liner

TL: 12
Tonnage: 1,200
Cost: 216.272 MCR
Mass:  Tons
DR: 600
Hit Points: 1,800
Crew: 50, and up to 100 passengers

Engineering:
Jump: 2
Manuever: 1

Offensive Systems:
9 Beam Lasers in 3 Triple Turrets
3 Missle Racks in 1 Triple Turret

Defensive Systems:
6 Sandcasters in 2 Triple turrets


Small Craft:
1 Shuttle

Other Features:
50 Lavish Passenger Staterooms
20 Low Berths
3 Sick Bays
4 assorted Playrooms[assorted furnishings of 
choice]
Casino

Notes: a 1,200 ton floating Pleasure Palace. 
Named after famous madam Lady Sally McGee. 
Buildt on a streamlined cylinder hull, with a 
bulbous nose section containing the bridge and 
other functions. These Ships are always custom 
buildt
To the owners specifications.
All the turrets are pop-ups, and theres a 
retractable armored shield which covers the 
viewing dome just forward and above the bridge.






From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 06:16:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Jun 21 05:16:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020620143039.009e8530@mindspring.com>
References: <memo.422167@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D13C18F.19333.DA7940@localhost>

On 20 Jun 2002 at 14:32, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 09:05 PM 6/20/02 +0100, you wrote:
> >In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020620085652.009f4670@mindspring.com>
> > >I forget, have you ever seen Jesse around automatic weapons?  He's like a
> > >kid on Christmas waiting to open his presents.
> >
> >And what is wrong with that, pray?
> 
> It's just amusing from the point of view of an ex-infantryman.  They used 
> to be part of my everyday job, so I forget how cool they seem to some folks.
> 
> Hey Mark, how's about next time we make Jesse port a 60 with a full load of 
> ammo several miles and see what he thinks of it after that?

Don't forget to put a hill in the middle of Jesse's little walk, but to 
not let him fire anything from the top where it'd be fun.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 06:26:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Jun 21 05:26:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #648 - 24 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020621081807.A27641@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <F183EaJswFCHOzyfyz50000002a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D13C402.14441.E40A29@localhost>

On 21 Jun 2002 at 8:18, Timothy Little wrote:

> Walt Smith wrote:
> > One possible reason: if you put your important infrastructure
> > at or outside the 100D limit, then an enemy commerce raider
> > can jump to it, nuke it, and jump out before your defenses
> > can react.
> 
> The same applies to coastal ports, but we still don't see them built
> 100 km inland.  Besides, any space station worth protecting is likely
> to have point defense, either inbuilt or in the form of craft
> patrolling nearby.  The chance of a nuke getting through is probably
> microscopic.

This is not the same as a nautical harbour where the attacker has to 
sail up to it through patrolable waters. A 100 diameter port facility 
can be effectively teleported to, especially if the raider jumps from a 
fairly close point (as in in-system) so that they can use the 100D 
limit to precipitate them almost on top of the port. For the post to be 
useful to LASH systems it needs to right on the 100D limit or nearly 
so, so a good jump would put the raider in beam weapon range and the 
port would be toast. Besides as the port can't dodge there's no need to 
use expensive anti-ship missiles when unguided KE munitions could be 
used in vast (and therefore unstoppable) quantities.
 
> Even attempting such an action would be an act of war, not just the
> usual scuffle that can be attributed to ECMs.  Directly attacking
> stationary civilian facilities in plain sight is an act for which
> they'd better be prepared for some large-scale retribution.

If they're full-dress commerce raiders you're already at war.

> The same thing you consider a *dis*advantage against commerce raiding
> is actually an advantage -- with this setup, commerce raiders can't
> intercept interstellar freighters heading to or from the 100D limit
> *at all*.  They even have next to no chance of doing significant
> damage before their target jumps out, or they themselves are destroyed
> by station defences.  Or both.

Thus it will work against privateers, but make life realatively easy 
for state-finded raiders who don't care about loot and just want to 
blow the port. Making the ships utterly dependant on the port for fuel, 
manoeuvre, etc., means that if the port is blown every LASH that jumps 
in is stranded in-system until the port is repaired.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 06:29:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Jun 21 05:29:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3823@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <3D13C402.3250.E40ADD@localhost>

On 20 Jun 2002 at 15:11, DeGraff, Jesse wrote:

> Depends on how much ammo I get to shoot afterwards ;)
> 
> Using my Steyr AUG airsoft gun was bad enough.  Because of it's
> metal receiver, it was pretty much real steel weight (just under
> 8lbs.).  Lugging that all over the field during day-long games, or
> worse, having it shouldered while on point, were enough to make me
> appreciate my nice little PDW (which WASN'T as heavy as it's real
> counterpart :)  Of course, people FEARED the AUG.  It's heavily
> modified >:D  400fps at ~1,200rpm is pretty brutal (relatively
> speaking) compared to a stock airsoft gun at ~250fps and 750rpm. 

Dunno what you problem was. The Steyr's one nice feature is that with 
it's centre of gravity well back it's non-fatiguing to carry readied at 
the shoulder. Try it with the (lighter) M16A1 sometime.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 06:33:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Jun 21 05:33:10 2002
Subject: [TML] a question for the Rocket Scientists:  What's the purpost of aerodynamic hulls?
In-Reply-To: <200206210753.DAA07842@shell.cinternet.net>
References: <200206210753.DAA07842@shell.cinternet.net>
Message-ID: <20020621222951.A29018@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bill Mellman wrote:
> What am I missing?  What's the purpose of an aerodynamic hull other
> than to look really spiffy?

Wind shear on an open frame is a real bitch, and will almost always
come from an unexpected angle and definitely not in line with the
normal thruster stresses.

There's also the issue of whether the exposed structures are equipped
to deal with the various nasty chemicals you find in upper (and some
lower!) atmospheres.  You can enclose it in some sort of outer hull,
but that increases the volume of the ship without increasing the
useful volume -- essentially, streamlining it.  The other choice is to
individual surface *every* exposed component, which adds up to a lot
of extra cost and mass not reflected in the original design sequence.
Streamlining is cheaper.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 07:01:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Jun 21 06:01:08 2002
Subject: [TML] How dangerous is the exhaust then?
Message-ID: <200206211259.IXX04703@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

As noted in a previous post, the first edition of HG implied 
that the exhaust was dangerous.  And the heplar thing is the 
next best thing to a cosmic catastrophe.  

In the news, http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-
ap-sweden-fighter-jet0620jun20.story.

I like to think that the standard 1-6 G maneuver drive is 
reactionless, and doesn't flame the observers.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 08:12:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Jun 21 07:12:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3828@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

You have to remember that I'm not in shape like an infantryman (unless you count "pear" as a shape ;)
Jesse


Rupert wrote:
Dunno what you problem was. The Steyr's one nice feature is that with 
it's centre of gravity well back it's non-fatiguing to carry readied at 
the shoulder. Try it with the (lighter) M16A1 sometime.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 09:42:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Jun 21 08:42:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Can a GM be too evil?
Message-ID: <200206211541.IYD03868@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

If the player characters escape prison, and start swimming 
across a river, is it OK for them to be eaten by waterborne 
pouncers in plain sight of witnesses?

http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?
type=humannews&StoryID=1118710
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 10:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Jun 21 09:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU setting
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEFGEBAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1024675788.5736.ajackson@ping>

Terry Carlino writes:
> How about Pixie was the victim of an immense natural disaster or act of
> war? The Class A shipyard, with its destroyed shipyard, sits idle and
> empty. Obsolete, empty hulks sit in the Navy Base. The only survivors, a
> group of miners, and their family huddle underground, barely surviving. The
> scouts still run XBoats through the system, supported by a pair of tenders
> which are station out of a nearby system.

Well, first of all, presumably all those handy resources would mean someone
would go send people to claim it all.  Secondly, it's not class A unless it
actually can build ships, which means it's not abandoned, because an abandoned
shipyard can't build ships.

It could, in theory, be a robotic shipyard.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 10:12:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Jun 21 09:12:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Rules of War applications
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEFCEBAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1024675640.9882.ajackson@ping>

Terry Carlino writes:

> Since the Third Imperium is not allowing Oberlines to operate their AHL
> class frontier within the Imperium I suspect that even if Meson Guns are
> not considered Weapons of Mass Destruction in the strictest sense that the
> IN would frown up on any civilians who use one.


May have more to do with it being a spinal mount than it being a meson gun. 
Particularly since the AHL doesn't have a meson gun, it has a spinal PAW.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 10:42:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Jun 21 09:42:04 2002
Subject: [TML] A Lifeboat for the Ship Rodeo
Message-ID: <200206211638.IYF03002@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Varyag-Harding is the worldwide leader in the manufacture and 
supply of lifesaving and evacuation equipment to the cruise, 
merchant shipping and belt industries. It specialises in 
total system packages ranging from design consultancy through 
to supply, fitting, maintenance and lifetime service of a 
range of lifeboats, davits and support systems which cover 
every evacuation need for any type of cruise vessel, merchant 
ship or belt unit.
THE COMPANY
Varyag-Harding evolved from a merger of the three most 
respected companies in the survival craft and davit business- 
Starcraft International, Harding Safety and Varyag Davit 
Company- each of which served the requirements of the cruise, 
shipping and belt industry for decades. Today, as part of 
Lunion's Umoe Group, the merged Varyag-Harding can offer the 
best of all three companies- Harding's innovative technique 
on rocket-ejection systems, Varyag's expertise in all kind of 
launching systems, and Starcraft's pre-eminence in innovative 
and multi-use survival craft.
>From its headquarters on Lunion, Varyag-Harding controls a 
sector-wide network which ensures that wherever you are in 
the world, the very best in lifeboat and davit supply and 
service is close to you. Customer service care, including 
after sales service, maintenance and inspection programmes 
and spare parts, or just plain advice, is available from our 
experts in dedicated offices in Regina, Trin's Veil, Lunion, 
and other offices sector-wide.
LIFEBOATS 
Lifeboats are developed and built to rigorous quality 
standards at the world's most modern lifeboat factories 
located at Lunion. Full documentation support is a key 
service provided to the belt industry. All our processes are 
approved by the Imperial Department of Naval Vessels.
Products include:
NEW The KISS System Safe and Simple range of conventional 
boats and matching VIP davits, which apply all of Varyag-
Harding's accumulated expertise and the latest technology to 
provide the simplest, lightest yet most robust boat and davit 
systems available anywhere 
Rocket-ejection skid, totally-enclosed lifeboats and matching 
davits systems ranging from 20 up to 60 persons 
Totally enclosed lifeboats and conventional davit systems 
ranging from 32 up to 80 persons 
A range of cruise tenders with capacity as a lifeboat up to 
150 persons. The lightest and shortest, yet luxurious and 
functional cruise tenders for any given capacity mean 
designers can maximise interior space on cruise ships 
The UNIC rocket davit system which combines simplicity with 
reliability and space saving external stowage for passenger 
vessels 
A range of conventional, telescopic, stored power and rocket-
ejection davits which stow boats completely within the ship's 
side yet maximise space saving 
Rescue boats and single arm pivot davits 
Manually operated davits for lifeboats from 12 to 35 person 
capacity 
Stored power-slewing davits for rescue boats and lifeboats up 
to 40 dTon displacement 
Maintenance and service packages tailored to ensure immediate 
operational readiness and compliance with safety case 
standards and testing requirements 
Life extension programmes which extend system-life 
considerably and provide good as new reliability. Refurbished 
systems available for existing platform or vessel layouts
POST-DELIVERY SERVICE
Varyag-Harding knows there is more to partnership than simply 
delivering a product, however well engineered. So it provides 
a high level of technical support and documentation control 
at the time of sale and delivery. It backs that by providing 
a round-the-clock, across-the-sector service capability for 
the life of the system.

TL 12 Varyag-Harding Model KISS-60 60-person capacity lifeboat

This is a typical, and widely-used lifeboat in the Spinward 
Marches.  It is commonly used on cruise ships that spend a 
lot of their time very far from populated planets. The extra 
endurance (56 days) of this model, plus its 500kg survival 
pack, make it a popular choice.  Add in the fact that it has 
the potential to save 60 lives at the cost of roughly 7 
million credits, and the company's legal department will be 
smiling as well.

Remote mining operations, as well as mining survey craft from 
large megacorporations, provide boats such as these to their 
crews.

This lifeboat is intended to be used as part of the Varyag-
Harding KISS system.  The boat uses a rocket-ejection system 
that can be actuated by untrained personnel from inside the 
lifeboat.  The ejection system handles closure of the 
lifeboat airlock door, ejection of the lifeboat, separation 
maneuver, and actuation of emergency beacons in a one-step 
process for the lifeboat user.  At the completion of the 
separation maneuver, a 500m cable is ejected, along which is 
strung a series of inflated mylar balloons that serve as 
additional passive reflectors.

In a pinch, it could be used as a regular boat to carry 15 
passengers, but that is not the design intention.  


USP
         LL-0101101-000000-00000-0 MCr 8.925 20 Tons
Bat Bear                           Crew: 1
Bat                                TL: 12

Cargo: 0.500 Emergency Low: 15 Fuel: 1.000 EP: 0.200 Agility: 
1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.089   Cost in Quantity: MCr 7.140

HULL
20.000 tons standard, 280.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge 
Configuration

CREW
Pilot

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 1G Manuever, Power plant-1, 0.200 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
No Bridge Installed, Model/1 Computer

FUEL
0.400 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 56 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1 Acceleration Couch, 15 Emergency Low Berths, 0.500 Ton Cargo

COST
MCr 9.014 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.089), MCr 
7.140 in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
11 Weeks Singly, 9 Weeks in Quantity
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 10:47:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Jun 21 09:47:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <3D13C18F.19333.DA7940@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020620143039.009e8530@mindspring.com>
 <memo.422167@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020621094205.009eace0@mindspring.com>

At 12:15 AM 6/22/02 +1200, you wrote:
> > Hey Mark, how's about next time we make Jesse port a 60 with a full 
> load of
> > ammo several miles and see what he thinks of it after that?
>
>Don't forget to put a hill in the middle of Jesse's little walk, but to
>not let him fire anything from the top where it'd be fun.

The back stop at the Albany P&R Club is pretty good sized hill.  So we send 
him up with that, and when he reaches the top, we call him.

"You forgot the spare barrel bag."

(Sorry Jesse, but we all went through this kind of stuff when we had our 
first experiences with automatic weapons.)


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 10:55:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Fri Jun 21 09:55:41 2002
Subject: [TML] A Lifeboat for the Ship Rodeo
In-Reply-To: <200206211638.IYF03002@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0206211848540.3833-100000@svati>

When I saw this excellent design, I was reminded of a small
pet peevee of mine. The lack of lifeboats in offical starship
designs. I admit this is something I often forget myself :-)

One question comes to mind though. Is it possible to regard
the necessary lifeboats as part of the cost of installing
life support during the design process?

Tommy Grav


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 11:33:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Fri Jun 21 10:33:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #648 - 24 msgs
In-Reply-To: <200206201422.IWF00336@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0206211004420.25752-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> "Walt Smith" says
> >One possible reason: if you put your important infrastructure
> >at or outside the 100D limit, then an enemy commerce raider
> >can jump to it, nuke it, and jump out before your defenses
> >can react.  Put it inside the 100D, and your SDB's and/or
> >COACC could make such a manuever a little more suicidal, and
> >thus less likely to happen.
>
> In Traveller, there's nothing to stop you from building a
> port that has accompanying battlestations.  The SDBs could be
> on patrol nearby, making a surprise attack costly.  Also, if
> the port was large enough, it would be difficult to really
> put out of operation.
>
> There would be regular cargo transport from the planet's
> surface, as well as from low orbit stations.

I think you'd see both situations in different parts of the
Imperium.  In the settled, old Core, there'd be more 100D ports,
more LASH configurations and infrastructure, more LHyd 'gas stations'
near the 100D limits collecting unrefined fuel from local gas giants.
In the newer frontier sectors, there'd be more downports and highports
inside the 100D limits, and fortified stations as well.
In the Core, there'd be leftover, historical downports that used
to serve cargoships directly centuries ago, but now serve the
shuttles, smaller traders, and yachts.  There may still be fortified
highport stations and from days gone by when they were the frontier, but
which are now museums or just curiosities.

"Oh my, you're from the Marches?" said young Lady Janeel to Captain Arbon,
"All the way here to Core on an important mission.  Isn't it
frightfully dangerous out there?  Having to go all the way dirtside on
your guard before you can make port, having to make long, risky refuelling
runs on your own - none of the nice safe highports we have here?"
"I'm sure you're right, ma'am. Now if you'll excuse me..."


Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 11:37:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Jun 21 10:37:05 2002
Subject: [TML] a question for the Rocket Scientists: What's the purpost of
 aerodynamic hulls?
Message-ID: <F2364owIhnc3LZxj7BW00024caf@hotmail.com>

From: Bill Mellman <mellman@cinternet.net>

     "What am I missing?  What's the purpose of an aerodynamic hull other 
than to look really spiffy?"


Mr. Mellman,

     Not much, actually.  Our Olde Game has always had a whiff of space 
opera about it.  Aerodynamic hulls do look a lot neater.
     In the WTU*, streamlining is dealt with a large oral dosage of 
handwavium.  Sure, thanks to Traveller maneuver drives, any ship could 
concievably work it's way in and out of an atmosphere.  But what of 
manuevering within an atmosphere or even traveling at a decent speed?  A 
dispersed structure could slowly "ooze" it's way from orbit to ground over 
many, many hours, but would you rather land in one hours or twenty?
     Not every starship needs or requires the type of top-notch atmospheric 
streamlining that provides lift, some need only be "smooth" enough to allow 
them to "punch" in and out of whatever atmospheric envelope they find.  
Indeed, my beloved "Weeble", the Clan Trader, enters and exits planetary 
atmospheres on a hyperbolic path, no "flying" or "flitting" about, just in 
getting in and getting out as rapidly as possible.
     Also, wilderness refueling must be considered.  Considering what we 
knew then and know now, a hypersonic pass through the upper reaches of a gas 
giant simply to scoop hydrogen does seem a bit extreme, but it makes for 
great role playing.  Once again, an unstreamlined or dispersed structure 
could oh so slowly settle itself into a gas giant's atmosphere to refuel, in 
much the same way my Great Aunt Lucretia creeps into the old swimming hole 
at the cove by nanometers, but that leaves you both very vulnerable to 
attack and keeps you in a dangerous enviroment for far too long.  Case in 
point: Auntie Lucretia's glacial entry into the bay affords the rest of Clan 
Whipsnade the opportunity to pelt her profusely with beer bottles (empty, 
naturally), clam shells (empty too), cigar butts, fruit rinds, and anything 
else that comes to hand.  Mind you though, she gets back at us.  She swings 
a mean walking frame.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

* WTU - Whipsnadian Traveller Universe


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 11:40:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Jun 21 10:40:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3829@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

NP :)
Jesse




The back stop at the Albany P&R Club is pretty good sized hill.  So we send 
him up with that, and when he reaches the top, we call him.

"You forgot the spare barrel bag."

(Sorry Jesse, but we all went through this kind of stuff when we had our 
first experiences with automatic weapons.)


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 11:44:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Jun 21 10:44:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <200206211740.IYH03637@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>"You forgot the spare barrel bag."
>
>(Sorry Jesse, but we all went through this kind of stuff 
>when we had our first experiences with automatic weapons.)

I remember running up and down a hill in Germany (a place 
that translated as The Devil's Gorge, one of those places 
where the contour lines on the map all run together) with an 
M-60.  Try falling down hill and tumbling with an M-60 after 
getting a good running start.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 12:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Jun 21 11:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How dangerous is the exhaust then?
References: <200206211259.IXX04703@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D14155E.4CDCBF93@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> As noted in a previous post, the first edition of HG implied
> that the exhaust was dangerous.  And the heplar thing is the
> next best thing to a cosmic catastrophe.
>
> In the news, http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-
> ap-sweden-fighter-jet0620jun20.story.
>
> I like to think that the standard 1-6 G maneuver drive is
> reactionless, and doesn't flame the observers.
> ________________
> A space traveller
> Standing on the boarding ramp
> Another journey
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

In supplement 9 Fighting ships pp.27 is the standard 20 ton Gig. The
illustrations shows what the text refers to as heat shields, not needed
by the highly trained Navy ;). They were installed on civilian models
because of heat spill in close quarters. In SOM a reference is made to
maneuver plates heating up and glowing under acceleration. IMTU although
the drive is reactionless, its very dangerous to get too close to an
exposed maneuver plate. Personnel require shielded suits to approach a
powered up maneuver plate. A ship setting down in dry brush can expect
to start a  fire.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The biggest difference between time and space is that you can't reuse
time.
            -Merrick Furst



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 12:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Jun 21 11:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Solar Sail question for Ship Rodeo
In-Reply-To: <200206190504.BAA28322@shell.cinternet.net>
Message-ID: <20621.111542.4W9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I don't know the details which you asked for, but I do know that solar
> sails are (relative to Traveller) *VERY* slow.  Interplanetary distances
> will take *years*, not the usual Traveller time frame of days or hours
> from orbit to jump or vica versa.

Nah, even at a measly 0.001 g, you can get a *long* ways in a year.

If I haven't messed up my figures, you can get 34 AU in a year.

Of course, the thrust *does* drop off as you get farther from the star.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 12:20:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Jun 21 11:20:36 2002
Subject: [TML] TL-9 American Heavy SDB - SENTRY Class
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020619222241.02041eb8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20621.111954.7V0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 11:06 AM 6/19/2002 -0500, Roseberry wrote:
>> >Ship: Edward Straker
>>Would this be Colonel Straker from the old UFO tv series?
>>I liked that show.
>
> Ooooohhhh...serious flashbacks here, uniforms for female personnel at 
> Moonbase Alpha, submarines with Jet fighters on their snout, Mobiles, cool 
> gull wing door cars....

Back in 74, I punched a paper tape to cause the TTY we used for
accessing the timesharing system we did BASIC programming on to type up
that teletype message from the opening of the shows. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 12:26:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Jun 21 11:26:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C382A@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I think I'll pass John ;)  I HAVE taken a spill on asphalt while cradling a $30,000, 25lb ENG camera and saved the camera.  The REST of me was hurtin' pretty bad though ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 10:40 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator


Douglas Berry says
>"You forgot the spare barrel bag."
>
>(Sorry Jesse, but we all went through this kind of stuff 
>when we had our first experiences with automatic weapons.)

I remember running up and down a hill in Germany (a place 
that translated as The Devil's Gorge, one of those places 
where the contour lines on the map all run together) with an 
M-60.  Try falling down hill and tumbling with an M-60 after 
getting a good running start.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 12:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Jun 21 11:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Uploading (was: Query)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEEJCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>
>I tend to agree.  I don't really believing that an uploaded copy of me
>would be me.  I'm quite happy with my brain, I want upgrades and
[deletion]
>As long as it's mostly my brain and I still have my memories, I'll
>still consider myself me.  I'm far different that I was at age 15, and

Why, just yesterday our local radio station was playing an old Pink Floyd
song about this very subject:

You raise the blade
You make the change
You rearrange
Me 'til I'm sane

You lock the door
Throw away the key
There's someone in my head
But it's not me

"Brain Damage" from Dark Side of the Moon

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 12:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri Jun 21 11:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] HGS test request
In-Reply-To: <3D1380BB.7842.9E68745@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020621185247.2DF63279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 06/21/02 at 07:38 PM,  "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" 

>> Andrew, I do have a question, though. Once upon a time, I was playing
>> with HGS and I'm sure there was a "T20" compatability mode in there.
>> That seems to have disappeared from the 1.13 version that I can get to
>> run. Assuming I'm not dreaming, what happened?

>No, its there. Its just since the T20 rules are not fully implimented
>in 1.13, I  locked it out in the release. However if you pass it
>"T20" as a command  line parameter it will unlock it.

My mind isn't going yet, then! <g> 

Thanks! 

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 13:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Bryn=20Monnery?=)
Date: Fri Jun 21 12:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: FFW Forces
In-Reply-To: <20020621164605.B78C027A66@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020621191109.22008.qmail@web13901.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi,

Well, then the table appears to be in error, as it
can't reproduce modern armies. OTOH, shifting the
column over gives reasonable results for those nations
I've tried (US, Warsaw Pact, UK, France, Germany,
Holland, Belgium, Ireland, Australia, Rhodesia).

Re: Forces TL. I suspect *no-one* will be fielding
TL-6 armour. In the modern world arms sales are a very
big buisness. Even African nations with no real
infrastructure have modern weapons. Just because a
Zimbabwean doesn't know ballistics, doesn't mean he
can't operate an AN-94 or T-90.

Re: The "Imperial Army". The Imperium has (or rather
in CT has) no real "standing army". It's a feudal
society, which means the subsector dukes control the
forces in their realm (the colonial fleet and the
planetary armies of their holdings). This breaks down
further, a planetary noble controls their planetary
armies and owes fielty to the subsector duke. The
sector dukedoms and archdukedomes are not permanant
positions, but rather are selected from the subsector
dukes for an unknown term and appointed by the emperor
respectively. The Emperors own forces are the Imperial
Guard, Marines and the forces of their direct
planetary holdings.

=====
"I knew it on the roof that night. We were brothers, Roy Batty and I! Combat models of the highest order. We had fought in wars not yet dreamed of... in vast nightmares still unnamed. We were the new people... Roy and me and Rachael! We were made for this world. It was ours!"

- Final Line of Blade Runner: Original Preview Cut

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 13:15:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn wilson)
Date: Fri Jun 21 12:15:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <F2606mn1b2Yu6s93Xgs00002be0@hotmail.com>


>Message: 1
>Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:44:17 -0700
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>Subject: RE: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>At 12:15 AM 6/22/02 +1200, you wrote:
> > > Hey Mark, how's about next time we make Jesse port a 60 with a full
> > load of
> > > ammo several miles and see what he thinks of it after that?
> >
> >Don't forget to put a hill in the middle of Jesse's little walk, but to
> >not let him fire anything from the top where it'd be fun.
>
>The back stop at the Albany P&R Club is pretty good sized hill.


A hill?  *A* freakin' hill???  Try the Wizard at Ft Hunter-Ligget.

Or let's send him to Ft Sherman, Panama.  It ain't Africa hot, it's 
equatorial jungle hot.  And humid.  And it's all up and down.  The slopes 
are nice and slippery too . . .  Don't reach out to stop yourself on one of 
the palm trees either, they have nice, long thorns.



  So we send
>him up with that, and when he reaches the top, we call him.
>
>"You forgot the spare barrel bag."


And when he gets back to the top-

"You forgot the tripod and T&E."



_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 13:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Jun 21 12:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo Update as of digest#656
Message-ID: <3D137BC3.6D34DEA5@mail.cswnet.com>

1. Cougar class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
2. Valuta class Assault Landing Ship--John Kwon
3. DBZ class Heavy Attack Scout--Dan Roseberry
4. Cuda class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
5. Cobra class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
6. Carronade class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
7. Chukkar class Merchant--John Kwon
8. Pell class Cargo Ship--John-Martin
9. Juniper class Missile Corvette--Anthony Colosetti
10. Ferdinand class Exploration Cruiser--Alan Bradley
11. Moronica Sisters Type A1.7725 Merchant--Alan Spik
12. Makiidi class Bulk Trader--Stephen Tempest
13. Shambieau class trader--Nick
14. Chauchat class Escort--Leslie Bates
15. Oldendorf class Tramp Trader--Dan Roseberry
16. Girls Best Friend [TL11 Seeker class]--Dan Roseberry
17. Minnie Me [Micro Trader class]--Dan Roseberry
18. Sinzsha Maru [Sonzsha Maru class Ore carrier]--Dan Roseberry
19. April Hare [TypeR2 Large Merchant]--Mike West
20. Harvest Class Merchant/LASH--John Kwon
21. Fleetwing Fast Cargo Courier--John Snead
22. Azure Swift Fast Passenger Courier--John Snead
23. Nightfall Frontier Fast Courier--John Snead
24. Stormhawk class Q-ship Escort--Shadowcat
25. "Space Family Dancourt" Modular Habitat--Timothy Little
26. Ides of the March Armed Liner--David Shayne
27. Hughes Racing Yacht--Anthony Colosetti
28. Grote Clan Trader--Larsen E. Whipsnade
29. The Yugobox--Bruce Johnson
30. Gabriel Missile Corvette--Leslie Bates
31. Shashkitar Battle Cruiser--Dan Roseberry
32. Wee Willie modified Grote Class--Larsen Whipsnade
33. Pickwick LBL-3D class--Larsen Whipsnade
34. SM-J-008 Kachina class--Larsen Whipsnade
35. Straker, Sentry class--Leslie Bates
36. Kamakaze, Mitsubibhi Wind class--Leslie Bates
37. Lucky Buck Mining Processor--Jeffrey Greenly
38. Random Walk, LRSV 772 class--Walt Smith
39. SUV--Stephen Tempest
40. Curtis LeMay, Boeing Starfortress class--Leslie Bates
41. Paladin, Northrup-Grumman Skybolt--Leslie Bates
42. Rimfire, Cecil Rhodes class--John-Martin
43. Xena, Aerospatiale Amazone class--Leslie Bates
44. Greek Fire, Openhiemer class--John-Martin
45. Glisten RX11-113, Brilliant Pebble class--John-Martin
46. Der Schwanstuka class strike cruiser--Dan Roseberry
47. Averellie, Simmix class strike cruiser--John-Martin
48. Hummel class Hospital Ship--Dan Roseberry
49. Austerlitz, Esprit class packet--Fred Ramen
50. Marechal Ney, general class tender--Fred Ramen
51. Resister, Resolution class missile frigate--Leslie Bates
52. Red Leader Fife, Tiriodi class fighter--John-Martin
53. One J KK, Silvilee Utility class--John-Martin
54. Kaiserin Arbellatra class battle cruiser--Leslie Bates
55. Wicked Wanda class Attack Yacht--Dan Roseberry
56. Barekdoldin class Patrol Cruiser--Mike West
57. ARES peacemaker class--Leslie Bates
58. Kriviet type--John-Martin
59. Lady Sally McGee Pleasure liner--Shadowcat
60. Varyag-Harding Model KISS-60 lifeboat--John Martin

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
In case you haven't heard, Strouden beat Spirrelle 1-0 in the subsector
Roller Ball Cup. I guess I'll be rooting for Strouden now. [crying]

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 13:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Jun 21 12:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo Update as of digest#656   couple of corrections
In-Reply-To: <3D137BC3.6D34DEA5@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEGJHOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

58. Kriviet type--John-Martin

60. Varyag-Harding Model KISS-60 lifeboat--John Martin

the Kriviet isn't a formal entry, it's more of a type
description,  I'll leave it up the to will of the TML
list if that one is included

the Kiss-60 isn't mine




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 13:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Jun 21 12:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C382C@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

What, you trying to make me have a heart attack? :)
Jesse



A hill?  *A* freakin' hill???  Try the Wizard at Ft Hunter-Ligget.

Or let's send him to Ft Sherman, Panama.  It ain't Africa hot, it's 
equatorial jungle hot.  And humid.  And it's all up and down.  The slopes 
are nice and slippery too . . .  Don't reach out to stop yourself on one of 
the palm trees either, they have nice, long thorns.



  So we send
>him up with that, and when he reaches the top, we call him.
>
>"You forgot the spare barrel bag."


And when he gets back to the top-

"You forgot the tripod and T&E."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 14:00:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Jun 21 13:00:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C382C@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEGLHOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

hmmm,

just checking

size A
atmosphere 4

you've got to know if they can find one the Imperial army
will stick a training base there, especially if you get huge
temperature swings -- The Marines would use the place for
basic.

jml
exercise is wonderful -- I can sit and
watch people do it all day.



What, you trying to make me have a heart attack? :)
Jesse



A hill?  *A* freakin' hill???  Try the Wizard at Ft Hunter-Ligget.

Or let's send him to Ft Sherman, Panama.  It ain't Africa hot, it's
equatorial jungle hot.  And humid.  And it's all up and down.  The slopes
are nice and slippery too . . .  Don't reach out to stop yourself on one of
the palm trees either, they have nice, long thorns.



  So we send
>him up with that, and when he reaches the top, we call him.
>
>"You forgot the spare barrel bag."


And when he gets back to the top-

"You forgot the tripod and T&E."
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 14:18:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Jun 21 13:18:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEGLHOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEGNHOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

And if they could find rocky dusty swampland it 
would make it just peachy, preferably with driving
rain interspersed with blazing sun, snakes, scorpions,
and alligators would be too kind

a hideously ugly and uncomfortable manor house would 
call for a war, I guess.

jml
gee, except for the scorpions that sounds sort 
like Georgia





hmmm,

just checking

size A
atmosphere 4

you've got to know if they can find one the Imperial army
will stick a training base there, especially if you get huge
temperature swings -- The Marines would use the place for
basic.

jml
exercise is wonderful -- I can sit and
watch people do it all day.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 14:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Jun 21 13:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
In-Reply-To: <F74HoRR0mO8QTd8Di3e000264f0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20621.122859.3M3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>
>      "Why? If you're an engineer, you're going to check your figures on
> paper anyway (you'll get real antsy if you can't, it's been drilled
>>and drilled into you),..."
>
>
> Mr. Johnson,
>
>      Very true.  I wonder if a tensor calculus implant would do away with 
> that custom.  How many people can still use a slip stick?

<raises hand>

My pocket sized circular slide rule is *great* for comparison shoping.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 14:23:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Jun 21 13:23:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
In-Reply-To: <3D110E1B.8080008@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20621.123347.6a6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Wanting to do complex calculations in the head always struck me as like 
> the teachers who objected to us using calculators, by intoning 'What if 
> you were stuck on a desert island without one, then?'

"then I'd build an abacus..."

More seriously, as someone who was in his senior year in high school
when pocket calculators hit the market, I had to do without them *anyway*.

But the idea is sound, even if they present it poorly.

What you *should* learn is a "feel" for what sort of answers are
"reasonable". Which was one big advantage to working with slide rules.
You had to work out the decimal place (ie, the *magnitude*) of the
answer seperately. And doing so helped give you that feel for right
answers. 

>>     Now THAT sounds like hell on Earth.  Without faulty memories and the 
>> passage of time, how can there be forgiveness? 

Please note that *forgiveness* comes *first* (see "forgive and forget").

Forgetting *without* forgiving just means you'll get mad all over again
if you encounter info about the forgotten inceident again.

>> Or personal peace?

Likewise, peace based on forgetting the bad stuff isn'yt "real". It
breaks the same way "forgiveness" based on forgetting does.

>>  If 
>> you remember every faux pas, every slight, every bad thing that ever 
>> happened to you both perfectly and accurately, you will go mad.

No, but it isn't a lot of fun. I grew up with a parent who *never* let
bygones be bygones. So I have trouble letting go of such memories. :-(

> Besides, a very wise professor of mine once told our class that it is 
> far easier to remember where to look up specific facts than to remember 
> specific facts themselves...which I have expanded, in modern days, to 
> 'He who has Google needs not possess a functional memory!' :->

No, but you *do* need to be good at picking the right search terms.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 14:26:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Jun 21 13:26:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10206191424000.28965-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20621.124252.6q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail Kiri writes:

> And I really do not want my sex drive turned off as some versions of
> immortality seem to do.  Smoothed out a bit around the edges would be
> OK.

Well, I can think of some fun things that could be done with the
ability to adjust sexual desire and related things. 
But they aren't appropriate for the list... <eg>

(Gee, maybe we need a TML-kink list? :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 14:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Jun 21 13:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: FFW Forces
In-Reply-To: <20020621191109.22008.qmail@web13901.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020621164605.B78C027A66@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020621133611.009fbd30@mindspring.com>

At 08:11 PM 6/21/02 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Well, then the table appears to be in error, as it
>can't reproduce modern armies. OTOH, shifting the
>column over gives reasonable results for those nations
>I've tried (US, Warsaw Pact, UK, France, Germany,
>Holland, Belgium, Ireland, Australia, Rhodesia).

Which is noted in the book.  Also remember that the Terran Forces at the 
end of the 20th Century were the result of a century of constant warfare 
and threats of warfare.  We had militaries bloated beyond anything seen 
before.  Those numbers are shrinking fast.

>Re: Forces TL. I suspect *no-one* will be fielding
>TL-6 armour. In the modern world arms sales are a very
>big buisness. Even African nations with no real
>infrastructure have modern weapons. Just because a
>Zimbabwean doesn't know ballistics, doesn't mean he
>can't operate an AN-94 or T-90.

Yes, but he can't make the ammo, or the treads, or the laminate 
armor.  That all needs to come in from a distance.  Most of the African 
states have, at *best* second or third hand equipment.  Back to the Gulf 
War.  The vast majority of tanks in Iraq's army were T-62s.  Those vehicles 
were over 30 years old at the beginning of the war.  The Saudis had M-60s, 
25 years old.  We came in with M1A1s that were less than five years 
old.  See the result?  After action inspections of captured Iraqi vehicles 
showed that many subsystems were non functional. Range finders were 
missing,  autoloaders worked poorly, if at all, engines had been repaired 
with civilian parts not designed for the stresses.

The supply chain for Iraq armored vehicle replacement covered a few 
thousand miles.  In the Imperium, it covers light years.

>Re: The "Imperial Army". The Imperium has (or rather
>in CT has) no real "standing army". It's a feudal
>society, which means the subsector dukes control the
>forces in their realm (the colonial fleet and the
>planetary armies of their holdings). This breaks down
>further, a planetary noble controls their planetary
>armies and owes fielty to the subsector duke. The
>sector dukedoms and archdukedomes are not permanant
>positions, but rather are selected from the subsector
>dukes for an unknown term and appointed by the emperor
>respectively. The Emperors own forces are the Imperial
>Guard, Marines and the forces of their direct
>planetary holdings.

I'd love to see the source for that, since I found numerous references to a 
standing Imperial Army going all the way back to Mercenary.  I never found 
anything like you describe in a canonical source.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 14:53:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Jun 21 13:53:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <F2606mn1b2Yu6s93Xgs00002be0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020621134744.00a02050@mindspring.com>

At 02:14 PM 6/21/02 -0500, you wrote:
>>The back stop at the Albany P&R Club is pretty good sized hill.
>
>A hill?  *A* freakin' hill???  Try the Wizard at Ft Hunter-Ligget.
>
>Or let's send him to Ft Sherman, Panama.  It ain't Africa hot, it's 
>equatorial jungle hot.  And humid.  And it's all up and down.  The slopes 
>are nice and slippery too . . .  Don't reach out to stop yourself on one 
>of the palm trees either, they have nice, long thorns.

Just send to Korea.  In August.  (Or in January, I can't tell which is worse.)

>  So we send
>>him up with that, and when he reaches the top, we call him.
>>
>>"You forgot the spare barrel bag."
>
>And when he gets back to the top-
>
>"You forgot the tripod and T&E."

When he gets back up again:

"Good job!  Now dig a fighting position, with full overhead cover.  The 
logs are at the bottom of the hill."


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                     -Adam West, as Batman 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 14:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Jun 21 13:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Another Lifeboat for the Ship Rodeo
In-Reply-To: <20020621190107.4B19727A36@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17LVNS-0003c4-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

<color><param>7F00,0000,0000</param>Tommy Grav <<tommy.grav@astro.uio.no> wrote: 

  

> When I saw this excellent design, I was reminded of a small 

> pet peevee of mine. The lack of lifeboats in offical starship 

> designs. I admit this is something I often forget myself :-) 


<color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>Since many standard hulls come with hardpoint capable of taking  
standard 3 DT turrets, it seems only reasonable that there would  
exist a number of 3DT lifeboats. 


And so, another entry... 


As long as my name remains attached, permission is granted to 
post this anywhere.


Many ship owners worry about pirates and external attack and  
spend many megacredits purchasing expensive and largely  
unnecessary weaponry.  However, far too few travelers worry about  
the possibility of critical mechanical failures before they happen.   


Why risk you and your pasengers dying with your ship, when for  
only slightly more than 1 megacredit you can guarantee your  
safety with the reliable Safe-T-Pod turret socket lifeboat.  Capable  
of making planetry landing and carrying up to six people to safety -  
you have to ask yourself if you are willing to make this investment  
in your safety.   


<color><param>0100,0100,0100</param><FontFamily><param>Courier New</param>Safe-T-Pod class Turret Socket Lifeboat 

(FF&S v2)				 


Tons: 3std ( SL Short Cylinder Simple )	Crew:  
3/3	Cargo: 0.05 std (0/00)	 

Volume: 42m3 	Passengers High/Med: 0/0Cost:  
1.167 MCr	 

Mass (L/C): 20t/20t		Passengers Low: 0	  
Maintenance Points: 0	 

Dimensions: 3.7m x 3.7m x 3.7m	Troops/Science:  
0/0	Tech Level: 15	 

Size: 6		Frozen Watch: 0		 

				 

Controls: Holographic, High automation. 3xComp  
(CM:1.0 CP:1.0). No bridge.				 

Communications: 1xRadio (50,000km, 0.02MW).  
1xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW). 				 

Sensors: 1xPEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm], 0MW). 				 

Survey/Science: 				 

ECM:  

Signatures: Vis:-1.5, IR:-1 (-1 at 1MW, -2 at  
0MW), Act:0, Neu:-1, Grav:-1				 

				 

Performance		 

0	Jump	 

1.4/1.4	Maneuver (/Thruster:1MW)	 

1.5/1.5	Contra-grav (0MW)	 

320kph/320kph	Atmosphere (/Crus:240kph/240kph)	 

1	Power (/Fus:1.3MW,1yr )	 

0	Battery	 

0	Fuel	 

0/0/0/0/1	Accomodations 	 

2 Adequate Seats for the pilot and the  
copilot/medic  

(or 1 pilot workstation if lifeboat workstations 
 cannot be made half size) 

1 Emergency Low Berth 

6	Life Sup. (/Ty:St,Nm /'St)	 

2	G-Comp 	 

0	ESA	 

0	Sandcasters	 

0	Damper Turrets	 

0	Damper Screen 	 

0	Meson Screen 	 

0	Force Field	 

0	Gravtics	 

10 [29]	Armor, 0 Structure 

1 0.05 cubic meter cargo bay for emergency  
supplies	 

1xAirlock				 

1xShip's locker (0std ea.)	 	 

 		 	 	 

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<color><param>0000,0000,0000</param><FontFamily><param>ARIAL</param> 

<nofill>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 14:58:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Jun 21 13:58:19 2002
Subject: [TML] a question for the Rocket Scientists:  What's the purpost of aerodynamic hulls?
In-Reply-To: <20020621164605.B78C027A66@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17LVNW-0003c4-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

> Bill Mellman wrote:
> > What am I missing?  What's the purpose of an aerodynamic hull other
> > than to look really spiffy?
> 
> Wind shear on an open frame is a real bitch, and will almost always
> come from an unexpected angle and definitely not in line with the
> normal thruster stresses.
> 
> There's also the issue of whether the exposed structures are equipped
> to deal with the various nasty chemicals you find in upper (and some
> lower!) atmospheres.  You can enclose it in some sort of outer hull,
> but that increases the volume of the ship without increasing the
> useful volume -- essentially, streamlining it.  The other choice is to
> individual surface *every* exposed component, which adds up to a lot
> of extra cost and mass not reflected in the original design sequence.
> Streamlining is cheaper.

Agreed, saying that only closed hulls can land in atmosphere is 
only good sense.  What I wonder about is why the hulls need to be 
streamlined.  With contragrav and thrusters, it seems reasonable 
to me that a flat-sided box or a cylinder could land in atmosphere 
almost as easily as a streamlined hull.  I can see not being able to 
do gas giant refuelling in a ship shaped like a shoe box, but I don't 
see any problem with landing on a terrestrial planet.  

What am I missing?

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com   

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 15:03:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Jun 21 14:03:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3830@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

You guys'r killin' me here....
:)
Jesse


The Penguin spake:
"Good job!  Now dig a fighting position, with full overhead cover.  The 
logs are at the bottom of the hill."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 15:05:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Jun 21 14:05:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <20020621.140007.-191233.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:41:01 -0700 "DeGraff, Jesse"
<Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:
> What, you trying to make me have a heart attack? :)
> Jesse
> 
> A hill?  *A* freakin' hill???  Try the Wizard at Ft Hunter-Ligget.

Wizard? What's that?

I was there back in 1973-1974 when it was still just a "Camp"

Turokan
______________________________________
Coming soon to neighborhoods around the globe:
A special announcement from the office of:

General Turokan


________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 15:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Jun 21 14:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo Update as of digest#656 couple of corrections
Message-ID: <F2266pT0giSftNtzsG00000b9c5@hotmail.com>

From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

     "The Kriviet isn't a formal entry, it's more of a type description,  
I'll leave it up the to will of the TML list if that one is included."


Mr. Lotz,

     Well, the Rodeo is open to any and all design systems, including ASCII 
text diagrams!  If you want the Kriviet in the contest, it is in the 
contest, just let Calico Dan or myself know.  'Nuff said.

     "the Kiss-60 isn't mine"

     We'll fix that, thanks for the heads up.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 15:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Jun 21 14:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] a question for the Rocket Scientists: What's the purpost of
 aerodynamic hulls?
Message-ID: <F1994uHmxxBZPiiOYDY000025c7@hotmail.com>

From: sneadj@mindspring.com

     "I can see not being able to do gas giant refuelling in a ship shaped 
like a shoe box, but I don't see any problem with landing on a terrestrial 
planet."

     "What am I missing?"


Mr. Snead,

     Nothing as far as I'm concerned.  It's just an artifact of the game, 
unfortunately.
     IMTU, any ship can "gingerly" make it's way through a planetary 
atmosphere with repeated piloting and engineering rolls.  Speed may be below 
a few tens of KPH, but at least she's moving.
     Landing is something else entirely.
     Most ships in Our Olde Game seem to be of a "through deck" design, the 
vessel's decks are at right angles to the m-drive's thrust vector.  This 
means that the structure of the ship has been built in that mind.  You can 
envision this by imagining such a vessel standing on it's tail, the pull of 
Earth's gravity on the vessel would the same as running the m-drive at one 
gee.  Obviously such a vessel has been built to withstand one, or more, gees 
in this fashion.
     Now lay that same vessel on it's "belly".  Would the vessel's structure 
resist the one gee gravity field in that direction?  Sure, only IF the 
vessel has been designed to land in the first place!
     Let's take a boxy, non-streamlined, vessel of some sort, a belt shuttle 
for instance.  The PCs "borrow" it to get to the main world's surface.  They 
oh so carefully nurse it through that planet's atmosphere, chuckling over 
their ability to outwit their pursuers, and finally attempt to land.  How 
should they set the vessel down?  If they lay it on it's "belly", will the 
vessel be damaged by it's own weight?  If they try to land on it's "tail", 
is the "tail" flat/steady/strong enough to be used as one big landing foot?
     So, creeping through a planet's atmosphere in an unstreamlined vessel 
can be done, but actually LANDING the damn thing is another kettle of fish!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 16:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Jun 21 15:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How dangerous is the exhaust then?
Message-ID: <F191gLuGHQ9W2pgFKe3000275de@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "I like to think that the standard 1-6 G maneuver drive is
reactionless, and doesn't flame the observers."


Mr. Kwon,

     You're right, of course.  No one in their right mind would give a party 
of PCs a kilometers long plasma torch.  But...
     I LIKE the idea of manuever drives being fuel hogs.  The idea of 
electricity-driven maneuver drives just doesn't sit well with me.  I want 
the PCs to worry about how many maneuvering "burns" are left in their tanks 
and where they'll be getting their next load of fuel from.  Being able to 
thrust for as long as your power plant is running doesn't quite seem "right" 
somehow.
     So, what's the answer?  I don't have one!  I haven't been able to come 
up with an m-drive idea that uses lots of fuel but doesn't also give the PCs 
their own fusion cannon.  Does anyone have a handwave for this?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 16:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Jun 21 15:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Rules of War applications
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1024675640.9882.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1024675640.9882.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330103b9395473a978@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:07 AM -0700 6/21/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Terry Carlino writes:
>
>>  Since the Third Imperium is not allowing Oberlines to operate their AHL
>>  class frontier within the Imperium I suspect that even if Meson Guns are
>>  not considered Weapons of Mass Destruction in the strictest sense that the
>>  IN would frown up on any civilians who use one.
>
>
>May have more to do with it being a spinal mount than it being a meson gun.
>Particularly since the AHL doesn't have a meson gun, it has a spinal PAW.

I think the issue is that the Navy has a policy of not selling such 
weapons to corporations.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 16:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Jun 21 15:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] a question for the Rocket Scientists: What's the purpost
 of aerodynamic hulls?
References: <F1994uHmxxBZPiiOYDY000025c7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D13A6C6.4040308@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>     Most ships in Our Olde Game seem to be of a "through deck" design, 
> the vessel's decks are at right angles to the m-drive's thrust vector.  
> This means that the structure of the ship has been built in that mind.  
> You can envision this by imagining such a vessel standing on it's tail, 
> the pull of Earth's gravity on the vessel would the same as running the 
> m-drive at one gee.  Obviously such a vessel has been built to withstand 
> one, or more, gees in this fashion.

Hmm, you seem to be playing a different Olde Game than I've been, as my 
experience is just the opposite. AFAICR the majority of ships have decks 
parallel to the thrust vector: The Sulieman Scout, the Empress Marava 
Far TRader, the Beowulf Free trader, Azhanti High Lightning, the 300T 
subsidized trader all have deck layouts like that...hmm let me 
think...as a matter of fact I can only think of *two*: The Xboat, and 
800T 'Happy Fun Ball' Merc cruiser (and I'm not entirely positive about 
that, since it's been a while since I looked at it) that have through 
decks that you describe.

The vast majority of ships in the TU are laid out like *ships* here, 
rather than Saturn Fives or the old Moon shuttle from 2001.

Now if what you said is what I just did, I plead it is Friday, hot as 
hades here and I am old, forgetful and beer-deprived as it is still 
_early_ on Friday...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 16:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Jun 21 15:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] a question for the Rocket Scientists: What's the
 purpost of aerodynamic hulls?
In-Reply-To: <3D13A6C6.4040308@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <B938F6F3.60F43%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/21/02 3:20 PM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:

> 800T 'Happy Fun Ball' Merc cruiser (and I'm not entirely positive about
> that, since it's been a while since I looked at it) that have through
> decks that you describe.

You left out the venerable AHL.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 16:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Jun 21 15:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] a question for the Rocket Scientists: What's the	purpost
 of aerodynamic hulls?
References: <B938F6F3.60F43%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D13AA8F.4090403@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> on 6/21/02 3:20 PM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:
> 
> 
>>800T 'Happy Fun Ball' Merc cruiser (and I'm not entirely positive about
>>that, since it's been a while since I looked at it) that have through
>>decks that you describe.
> 
> 
> You left out the venerable AHL.

That was because I couldn't remember how it was laid out...




-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 16:52:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Jun 21 15:52:30 2002
Subject: [TML] How dangerous is the exhaust then?
In-Reply-To: <F191gLuGHQ9W2pgFKe3000275de@hotmail.com>
References: <F191gLuGHQ9W2pgFKe3000275de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020622085118.A30246@freeman.little-possums.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>      So, what's the answer?  I don't have one!  I haven't been able
> to come up with an m-drive idea that uses lots of fuel but doesn't
> also give the PCs their own fusion cannon.  Does anyone have a
> handwave for this?

The exhaust goes into jumpspace.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 17:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Jun 21 16:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OMAHA Class Battlecruiser
In-Reply-To: <F2266pT0giSftNtzsG00000b9c5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020621180123.009771c0@minn.net>

Permission is granted for posting on websites:

BC-2  GRAND FORKS  BC-K1168D3-000002-40708-0 MCr 12,690.929 12 KTons
   Batteries Bearing               2 A 2 6   Crew: 183
   Batteries                       2 A 2 6   TL: 10

Cargo: 128 Fuel: 4,320 EP: 960 Agility: 6 Marines: 52
Craft: 2 x 30T Ship's Boat, 2 x 95T Shuttle
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/4fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 126.109   Cost in Quantity: MCr 10,186.743

Detailed Description

HULL:		12,000 tons standard, 168,000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration
CREW:		21 Officers, 110 Ratings, 52 Marines
ENGINEERING:	Jump-1, 6G Manuever, Power plant-8, 960.000 EP, Agility 6
AVIONICS:	Bridge, Model/4fib Computer, 1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/4fib Backup
Computer
HARDPOINTS:	10 100-ton bays, 20 Hardpoints
ARMAMENT:	2 100-ton Particle Accelerator Bays (Factor-7), 6 100-ton Missile
Bays (Factor-8), 20 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organised into 10 Batteries
(Factor-4)
DEFENCES:	2 100-ton Repulsor Bays (Factor-2)
CRAFT:		2 30 ton Ship's Boats (Crew 2, Cost of MCr 16), 2 95 ton Shuttles
(Crew 2, Cost of MCr 33)
FUEL:		4,320 Tons Fuel (2 parsecs jump and 56 days endurance) 
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant
MISCELLANEOUS:	95 Staterooms, 126 Tons Cargo
COST:		MCr 12,737.038 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 126.109), MCr
10,088.743 in Quantity, plus MCr 98.000 of Carried Craft
CONSTRUCTION TIME:	163 Weeks Singly, 131 Weeks in Quantity
COMMENTS:	In anticipation of the development of the Tech Level 10, Model/4
computer, the US Space Force contracted with Consolidated Astronautics
Technologies Corporation to build the Omaha class battlecruiser.


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 17:06:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Jun 21 16:06:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
Message-ID: <memo.453383@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20621.122859.3M3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
>How many people can still use a slip stick?

Me.

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 17:09:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Jun 21 16:09:38 2002
Subject: [TML] a question for the Rocket Scientists:  What's the purpost of aerodynamic hulls?
In-Reply-To: <E17LVNW-0003c4-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <20020621164605.B78C027A66@mail.travellercentral.com> <E17LVNW-0003c4-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020622090617.B30246@freeman.little-possums.net>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> I can see not being able to do gas giant refuelling in a ship shaped
> like a shoe box, but I don't see any problem with landing on a
> terrestrial planet.
> 
> What am I missing?

Nothing but time, as far as I can tell.  A box can probably only
manage a fifth of the speed of a streamlined ship.  Although, in GURPS
there is no maximum speed difference between No and Good streamlining
(1000 km/hr), and only minimal advantage to Very Good (1200 km/hr).

Not that streamlining makes much difference to the design sequence,
just a minor extra cost to the basic hull structure (typically about
1% of the ship's cost).  I don't know about other Traveller ship
design systems.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 17:12:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Jun 21 16:12:31 2002
Subject: [TML] a question for the Rocket Scientists: What's the purpost of
 aerodynamic hulls?
Message-ID: <F16736ankMk2grWsRmG0002781c@hotmail.com>

From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

     "Hmm, you seem to be playing a different Olde Game than I've been, as 
my experience is just the opposite. AFAICR the majority of ships
have decks parallel to the thrust vector:..."


Mr. Johnson,

     You are, of course, correct, sir.  The weary Whipsnadian wetware is on 
the fritz it seems.  (sigh)
     May I please borrow your "It's Friday" excuse?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 17:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Jun 21 16:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: FFW Forces
In-Reply-To: <20020621191109.22008.qmail@web13901.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020621164605.B78C027A66@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <200206212332.g5LNWvt22548@sun.ebtech.net>

I have to agree with Doug.

The Imperial Army is not Feudal its organized alnog regional unit 
lines.  In the Army you will serve with soldiers from your own region 
and due to travel constraints probably serve mostly in your own 
sector or domain.

The Marines and the Navy on the other hand are likely to be a 
polygot force with members from all over the Imperium.  The 
formers alligence is the Emperor and the latter too also relying on 
the cohesion of a ship's crew.  Regular rotations would prevent too 
much religionalism providing a nucleus for rebellion.  

With the Army rotation is not needed as they need the Navy to get 
anywhere.

This is all speculation not canon.

> Re: The "Imperial Army". The Imperium has (or rather
> in CT has) no real "standing army". It's a feudal
> society, which means the subsector dukes control the
> forces in their realm (the colonial fleet and the
> planetary armies of their holdings). This breaks down
> further, a planetary noble controls their planetary
> armies and owes fielty to the subsector duke. The
> sector dukedoms and archdukedomes are not permanant
> positions, but rather are selected from the subsector
> dukes for an unknown term and appointed by the emperor
> respectively. The Emperors own forces are the Imperial
> Guard, Marines and the forces of their direct
> planetary holdings.
> 
> =====




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 17:32:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Mellman)
Date: Fri Jun 21 16:32:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Streamlined hulls  (was: a question for the Rocket Scientists:  What's the purpost of aerodynamic hulls?)
Message-ID: <200206212329.TAA11702@shell.cinternet.net>

Timothy Little wrote:

 .   Bill Mellman wrote:
 .   > What am I missing?  What's the purpose of an aerodynamic hull other
 .   > than to look really spiffy?
 .   
 .   Wind shear on an open frame is a real bitch, and will almost always
 .   come from an unexpected angle and definitely not in line with the
 .   normal thruster stresses.


The arguments regarding wind sheer, and wind stresses for open and
closed structured hulls don't hold water for me.  Say we look at a
microwave tower as an example of an open structure:  those things are
designed to withstand gale force winds.  I'm guessing at least 150 mph.
If you're going 150mph you can get from Shuttle orbit to ground in
one hour.  Doesn't seem to bad to me.  

As an example of a closed structure let's look at the Viking Mars landers,
and the recent Mars lander which deposited the Mars Rover.  These things
could hardly be called streamlined.  I'm sure they used atmospheric
breaking to slow down, but after that initial part they seemed to make
it to the surface in pretty reasonable time.  I'm sure they must have
been cooking along at at least 100 mph (I'll admit I'm guessing here)
for some of the stretch.

At least once these things have landed they can be classified as closed
structures, and yet the high velocity Martian sand-storms haven't
dislodged them at all.

Or let's look at my parents 1970's era van.  It was a pure box, with
mirrors hanging out, and a radio antenna.  It was much more a closed
structure than it was a streamlined one.  Don't tell the police, but I
had that thing up to about 90 mph once, and it wasn't phased.

In terms of wind sheer between air layers, our current commercial jet
liners (Earth, 2002) can detect wind sheer (not sure, maybe it's ground
units that detect and then relay, but if so I'm sure that on-board
detection isn't far away).  If you see that you're about to drop down
into a jet-stream on your alien world then you either side step it or
accelerate sideways to ease into it.

I guess all these problems seem fairly trivial to me.  At least not
worth the LBB2 rule of not allowing open or closed structures into
atmospheres.

b





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 17:35:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Jun 21 16:35:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Solar Sail question for Ship Rodeo
Message-ID: <200206212330.IYT01128@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

shadow@krypton.rain.com says
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Solar Sail question for Ship Rodeo  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Nah, even at a measly 0.001 g, you can get a *long* ways in 
>a year.
>
>If I haven't messed up my figures, you can get 34 AU in a 
year.
>

See 

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/m2p2_wingle
e_010621.html

You can go pretty quick using solar propulsion - you just 
don't use an old fashioned sail - you use a magnetosphere as 
a sail.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 17:37:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Jun 21 16:37:41 2002
Subject: [TML] OMAHA Class Battlecruiser
Message-ID: <F2370i55VmlrRZi4eQY0000ec5b@hotmail.com>

From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>

     "BC-2  GRAND FORKS..."


Mr. Bates,

     May I say how much I've been enjoying your early IW designs?  Giving 
them an Air Force "lineage" rather than a Navy bloodline is an inspired 
touch, IMVHO.
     I do have one teeny-weeny, picayune quibble; why no armor levels?  
Prior to nuc dampers, the more armor the better.  Agility is always a must, 
better to avoid being hit at all, but a few armor levels can really make a 
difference.
     Look at the surface explosions table.  Although batteries with a factor 
less than 9 get a +6 drm, nuc missiles get a -6 drm.  Rolls 2 through 4 are 
critical hit, interior explosion (IE), IE, and IE.  Just 4 levels of armor 
would prevent any of those being rolled.
     Dropping nucs from the picture, all <9 batteries will begin rolling at 
8.  Four levels of armor in this case would prevent any maneuvering hits.
     Armor at lower TLs "costs" quite a bit.  It takes up more tonnage, 
limiting room for other systems.  But, I'd rather trade a bay weapon, and 
the energy it requires, to slap some armor in place.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 17:40:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Jun 21 16:40:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo Update as of Digest#658
Message-ID: <3D13B6EB.70F5AE8E@mail.cswnet.com>

First, a correction--

John-Martin writes: 
>the Kiss-60 isn't mine

Yeah, I messed up there. Its John Kwons. I'm getting my Johns confused.
>:O

More from John-Martin:
>the Kriviet isn't a formal entry, it's more of a type
>description,  I'll leave it up the to will of the TML
>list if that one is included

Kriviet will be moved to the waiting in the wings section
pending "will of the TML".

1. Cougar class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
2. Valuta class Assault Landing Ship--John Kwon
3. DBZ class Heavy Attack Scout--Dan Roseberry
4. Cuda class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
5. Cobra class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
6. Carronade class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
7. Chukkar class Merchant--John Kwon
8. Pell class Cargo Ship--John-Martin
9. Juniper class Missile Corvette--Anthony Colosetti
10. Ferdinand class Exploration Cruiser--Alan Bradley
11. Moronica Sisters Type A1.7725 Merchant--Alan Spik
12. Makiidi class Bulk Trader--Stephen Tempest
13. Shambieau class trader--Nick
14. Chauchat class Escort--Leslie Bates
15. Oldendorf class Tramp Trader--Dan Roseberry
16. Girls Best Friend [TL11 Seeker class]--Dan Roseberry
17. Minnie Me [Micro Trader class]--Dan Roseberry
18. Sinzsha Maru [Sonzsha Maru class Ore carrier]--Dan Roseberry
19. April Hare [TypeR2 Large Merchant]--Mike West
20. Harvest Class Merchant/LASH--John Kwon
21. Fleetwing Fast Cargo Courier--John Snead
22. Azure Swift Fast Passenger Courier--John Snead
23. Nightfall Frontier Fast Courier--John Snead
24. Stormhawk class Q-ship Escort--Shadowcat
25. "Space Family Dancourt" Modular Habitat--Timothy Little
26. Ides of the March Armed Liner--David Shayne
27. Hughes Racing Yacht--Anthony Colosetti
28. Grote Clan Trader--Larsen E. Whipsnade
29. The Yugobox--Bruce Johnson
30. Gabriel Missile Corvette--Leslie Bates
31. Shashkitar Battle Cruiser--Dan Roseberry
32. Wee Willie modified Grote Class--Larsen Whipsnade
33. Pickwick LBL-3D class--Larsen Whipsnade
34. SM-J-008 Kachina class--Larsen Whipsnade
35. Straker, Sentry class--Leslie Bates
36. Kamakaze, Mitsubibhi Wind class--Leslie Bates
37. Lucky Buck Mining Processor--Jeffrey Greenly
38. Random Walk, LRSV 772 class--Walt Smith
39. SUV--Stephen Tempest
40. Curtis LeMay, Boeing Starfortress class--Leslie Bates
41. Paladin, Northrup-Grumman Skybolt--Leslie Bates
42. Rimfire, Cecil Rhodes class--John-Martin
43. Xena, Aerospatiale Amazone class--Leslie Bates
44. Greek Fire, Openhiemer class--John-Martin
45. Glisten RX11-113, Brilliant Pebble class--John-Martin
46. Der Schwanstuka class strike cruiser--Dan Roseberry
47. Averellie, Simmix class strike cruiser--John-Martin
48. Hummel class Hospital Ship--Dan Roseberry
49. Austerlitz, Esprit class packet--Fred Ramen
50. Marechal Ney, general class tender--Fred Ramen
51. Resister, Resolution class missile frigate--Leslie Bates
52. Red Leader Fife, Tiriodi class fighter--John-Martin
53. One J KK, Silvilee Utility class--John-Martin
54. Kaiserin Arbellatra class battle cruiser--Leslie Bates
55. Wicked Wanda class Attack Yacht--Dan Roseberry
56. Barekdoldin class Patrol Cruiser--Mike West
57. ARES peacemaker class--Leslie Bates
58. Lady Sally McGee Pleasure liner--Shadowcat
59. Varyag-Harding Model KISS-60 lifeboat--John Kwon
60. Safe-T-Pod class Turret Socket Lifeboat--John Snead

Waiting in the wings:  Kriviet type--John-Martin [pending "will of TML"]

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 17:43:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Jun 21 16:43:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo Update as of digest#656
Message-ID: <200206212333.IYT01439@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I think I did the lifeboat at the bottom...

---- Original message ----
>Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 14:17:23 -0500
>From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>  
>Subject: [TML] Rodeo Update as of digest#656  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>1. Cougar class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
>2. Valuta class Assault Landing Ship--John Kwon
>3. DBZ class Heavy Attack Scout--Dan Roseberry
>4. Cuda class Armored Escort--Leslie Bates
>5. Cobra class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
>6. Carronade class Close Escort--Leslie Bates
>7. Chukkar class Merchant--John Kwon
>8. Pell class Cargo Ship--John-Martin
>9. Juniper class Missile Corvette--Anthony Colosetti
>10. Ferdinand class Exploration Cruiser--Alan Bradley
>11. Moronica Sisters Type A1.7725 Merchant--Alan Spik
>12. Makiidi class Bulk Trader--Stephen Tempest
>13. Shambieau class trader--Nick
>14. Chauchat class Escort--Leslie Bates
>15. Oldendorf class Tramp Trader--Dan Roseberry
>16. Girls Best Friend [TL11 Seeker class]--Dan Roseberry
>17. Minnie Me [Micro Trader class]--Dan Roseberry
>18. Sinzsha Maru [Sonzsha Maru class Ore carrier]--Dan 
Roseberry
>19. April Hare [TypeR2 Large Merchant]--Mike West
>20. Harvest Class Merchant/LASH--John Kwon
>21. Fleetwing Fast Cargo Courier--John Snead
>22. Azure Swift Fast Passenger Courier--John Snead
>23. Nightfall Frontier Fast Courier--John Snead
>24. Stormhawk class Q-ship Escort--Shadowcat
>25. "Space Family Dancourt" Modular Habitat--Timothy Little
>26. Ides of the March Armed Liner--David Shayne
>27. Hughes Racing Yacht--Anthony Colosetti
>28. Grote Clan Trader--Larsen E. Whipsnade
>29. The Yugobox--Bruce Johnson
>30. Gabriel Missile Corvette--Leslie Bates
>31. Shashkitar Battle Cruiser--Dan Roseberry
>32. Wee Willie modified Grote Class--Larsen Whipsnade
>33. Pickwick LBL-3D class--Larsen Whipsnade
>34. SM-J-008 Kachina class--Larsen Whipsnade
>35. Straker, Sentry class--Leslie Bates
>36. Kamakaze, Mitsubibhi Wind class--Leslie Bates
>37. Lucky Buck Mining Processor--Jeffrey Greenly
>38. Random Walk, LRSV 772 class--Walt Smith
>39. SUV--Stephen Tempest
>40. Curtis LeMay, Boeing Starfortress class--Leslie Bates
>41. Paladin, Northrup-Grumman Skybolt--Leslie Bates
>42. Rimfire, Cecil Rhodes class--John-Martin
>43. Xena, Aerospatiale Amazone class--Leslie Bates
>44. Greek Fire, Openhiemer class--John-Martin
>45. Glisten RX11-113, Brilliant Pebble class--John-Martin
>46. Der Schwanstuka class strike cruiser--Dan Roseberry
>47. Averellie, Simmix class strike cruiser--John-Martin
>48. Hummel class Hospital Ship--Dan Roseberry
>49. Austerlitz, Esprit class packet--Fred Ramen
>50. Marechal Ney, general class tender--Fred Ramen
>51. Resister, Resolution class missile frigate--Leslie Bates
>52. Red Leader Fife, Tiriodi class fighter--John-Martin
>53. One J KK, Silvilee Utility class--John-Martin
>54. Kaiserin Arbellatra class battle cruiser--Leslie Bates
>55. Wicked Wanda class Attack Yacht--Dan Roseberry
>56. Barekdoldin class Patrol Cruiser--Mike West
>57. ARES peacemaker class--Leslie Bates
>58. Kriviet type--John-Martin
>59. Lady Sally McGee Pleasure liner--Shadowcat
>60. Varyag-Harding Model KISS-60 lifeboat--John Martin
>
>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
>In case you haven't heard, Strouden beat Spirrelle 1-0 in 
the subsector
>Roller Ball Cup. I guess I'll be rooting for Strouden now. 
[crying]
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 17:46:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Jun 21 16:46:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
Message-ID: <200206212336.IYT01773@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>The Penguin spake:
>"Good job!  Now dig a fighting position, with full overhead 
>over.  The logs are at the bottom of the hill."
>_______________________________________________



"No! No! No!  Not there!  I told you to dig the bunker over 
there, facing that way!  Now fill that in and do it like I 
told you!"
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 17:48:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Jun 21 16:48:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
Message-ID: <200206212339.IYT02034@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)  
>Subject: Re: [TML] Query  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Cc: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk
>
>In-Reply-To: <20621.122859.3M3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
>>How many people can still use a slip stick?
>
>Me.
>
>Mexal.
>

Me too, and I still have one, and still use it.  It's 
evidently a collectible now, but I'm faster (to significant 
digits) than most people are with a calculator.
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 17:51:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Jun 21 16:51:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #648 - 24 msgs
In-Reply-To: <3D13C402.14441.E40A29@localhost>
References: <F183EaJswFCHOzyfyz50000002a@hotmail.com> <20020621081807.A27641@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D13C402.14441.E40A29@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020622094020.C30246@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> For the post to be useful to LASH systems it needs to right on the
> 100D limit or nearly so,

I envisage 1000 km or so inside; enough to simplify traffic control.


> so a good jump would put the raider in beam weapon range and the
> port would be toast.

Umm, don't you mean the *raider* would be toast?  Remember, in this
arrangement patrol boats can be based primarily in the stations'
hexes, rather than wandering through the 2 *million* hexes of an
Earthlike 100D limit trying to protect shipping as it travels.


> Besides as the port can't dodge there's no need to use expensive
> anti-ship missiles when unguided KE munitions could be used in vast
> (and therefore unstoppable) quantities.

You mean using Weapons of Mass Destruction against Civilian
Populations?

Besides, have you actually *looked* at unguided KE munitions?  Small
ones don't do any damage on a starship scale, and big ones are more
subject to point defense than missiles are (they can't avoid the
beams).  They are also a lot slower than missiles since ten metres of
acceleration run can't compete with tens of thousands of kilometres,
and hence do much less damage per unit volume.  They also have a low
rate of fire per unit damage, and so chances are that a few ships
trying to launch them will be cut to pieces long before doing much
harm.

Besides which, this applies equally well to ships launching KE weapons
from outside the 100D limit at non-maneuvering targets near the
planet.  Except that, in your case, they have a *lot* more time before
the SDBs turn up to stop their shenanigans, by at least a factor of
ten.  So once again, what you suppose is a specific vulnerability is
actually an advantage.


> If they're full-dress commerce raiders you're already at war.

There's a big difference between grabbing or potting a few isolated
craft here and there, and bombing their port.  In WW2, the US didn't
declare war after it had lost quite a few merchant vessels to enemy
action.  No, it was when their *port* was attacked that they did so.

More recently, the US has suffered a lot of downed aircraft, hijacked
ships and jets, and murders of its citizens over the years, from many
hostile groups and nations.  Did you see the difference in the
response to the attack on just a few major structures 9 months ago?


> Making the ships utterly dependant on the port for fuel, manoeuvre,
> etc., means that if the port is blown every LASH that jumps in is
> stranded in-system until the port is repaired.

The fuel tenders are still functioning, unless you suppose that the
enemy has taken over the whole system.  So are the cargo shuttles,
unless they've got the planet too.  Since you're positing that the
enemy has enough firepower to overwhelm the bulk of system defense
forces, that would have happened no matter where the port was.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 17:54:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Jun 21 16:54:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
In-Reply-To: <memo.453383@cix.compulink.co.uk>
References: <memo.453383@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020622094111.D30246@freeman.little-possums.net>

Megan Robertson wrote:
> In-Reply-To: <20621.122859.3M3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
> >How many people can still use a slip stick?
> 
> Me.

Me, too!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 17:57:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Fri Jun 21 16:57:41 2002
Subject: [TML] What's the purpose of aerodynamic hulls?
In-Reply-To: <20020621222511.C460E27A36@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020621163924.009f5ec0@mailhost.efn.org>

>
> >     Most ships in Our Olde Game seem to be of a "through deck" design,
> > the vessel's decks are at right angles to the m-drive's thrust vector.
>
>Hmm, you seem to be playing a different Olde Game than I've been, as my
>experience is just the opposite. AFAICR the majority of ships have decks
>parallel to the thrust vector:

It's a matter of semantics:  do you measure by the plane of the decks, or 
what's standing on them?

I think you DID both say the same thing, just with different words.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 18:01:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Jun 21 17:01:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
In-Reply-To: <200206212339.IYT02034@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEHGHOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)  
>Subject: Re: [TML] Query  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Cc: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk
>
>In-Reply-To: <20621.122859.3M3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
>>How many people can still use a slip stick?
>
>Me.
>
>Mexal.
>

Me too, and I still have one, and still use it.  It's 
evidently a collectible now, but I'm faster (to significant 
digits) than most people are with a calculator.
________________


me three


j 'pocket protector' ml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 18:03:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Jun 21 17:03:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Streamlined hulls  (was: a question for the Rocket Scientists:  What's the purpost of aerodynamic hulls?)
In-Reply-To: <200206212329.TAA11702@shell.cinternet.net>
References: <200206212329.TAA11702@shell.cinternet.net>
Message-ID: <20020622095723.E30246@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bill Mellman wrote:
> The arguments regarding wind sheer, and wind stresses for open and
> closed structured hulls don't hold water for me.

Closed, I've already agreed is no problem.  Open I see as being a
structure that takes advantage of the airlessness of space to save on
design costs.  If you're going to add them all back by designing it to
handle atmospheres of uncertain chemical composition and variable
speed, what's the point?


>  Say we look at a microwave tower as an example of an open
> structure: those things are designed to withstand gale force winds.

Yep, and the actual *component* volume of these things is pretty tiny,
mainly just a few bits at the top, with extra (expensive) engineering
specifically to *deal* with those winds, and coated to deal with
water, free oxygen, traces of salt, and various other nasties.  Much
more expensive than the bare cost of the structure itself.


> At least once these things have landed they can be classified as closed
> structures, and yet the high velocity Martian sand-storms haven't
> dislodged them at all.

In what would be classified as "trace" atmosphere, yes.  And one that
doesn't even have free oxygen at that.  It is estimated that the "high
velocity Martian sand-storms" would exert about as much force as a
gentle breeze on Earth.  The atmosphere of Mars is not just less dense
than Earth's, it is *much* less dense.


> I guess all these problems seem fairly trivial to me.  At least not
> worth the LBB2 rule of not allowing open or closed structures into
> atmospheres.

Closed, I agree, with additional time for the transit.  But open
structures get design benefits from not needing chemical and
mechanical atmosphere protection.  If you want that protection, you'd
better pay for it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 18:06:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri Jun 21 17:06:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: FFW Forces
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020620201108.009ec430@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEGAEBAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>While I certainly agree that a modern military force requires a good deal
of
>>training, I must repeat my oft stated opinion that it is unreasonable to
>>believe that a (G)TL8 world will (barring religious knowledge suppression)
>>teach (G)TL12 science and engineering in its schools. Just as my friend
who
>>taught physics in sub-Sahara Africa taught not (G)TL4 physics, but
(G)TL-7/8
>>physics, so a teacher on a (G)TL-8 world will teach concepts and
discoveries
>>of modern (G)TL-12 physics, not the outmoded Standard Model and incomplete
>>quantum based understanding of physics we have.
>
>You're missing the point.  The WiQ has to ship in *everything* that can't
>be manufactured locally, bring in people to train the troops who are going
>to operate the gear, pay to have spare parts ship, and if a war cuts of the
>shipping lanes?  Better hope your supply dumps don't get hit.
>
>Take the Saudi army in Desert Storm.  Everything they had they bought from
>us.  They needed constant supply from the US.  Had we stopped coming, and
>the Iraqis came over the border, the Royal Saudi Tank Club would have died
>in droves.
>
>The BE reduction for higher TL forces is less about the cost of training,
>and more about the cost of brining in the gear.
>
>It isn't even necessarily religious repression that keeps TL's
>down.  Mexico sits right next to one of the most advance nations on Earth,
>and lags behind in TL due to poverty.  Go further south, and you see more
>nations that, due to a combination of poverty and warfare, are still
>capable of producing TL 5-6 forces.  We happily sell them arms, but the
>cost of outfitting *one* of their soldiers in TL 8 gear is the same as
>supply 4 or 5 troops with local tech.
>
>This is canonical, and the cost of upgrading BE's was drawn directly from
>Far Trader.
>
Not that I disagree that any of this was true. My point was that the local
troops are fully capable of being trained to operate the most sophisticated
equipment. In GURPS terms the inhabitants of any world which has
interstellar contact will have a theoretical knowledge of science and
engineering at (G)TL-12. This is entirely separate from the issue of the
cost of outfitting units.

> >I'm sure that a justification can be found for reducing the number of
BE's
> >on lower tech worlds, I just don't believe that the barbarian
disadvantage
> >is one of them.
>
>Well, if you look at the BE table, you see that mid-tech worlds get more
>local forces than equivalent worlds of higher or lower TL.  This is a
>combination of better ability to support large forces and the need to have
>more troops under arms to achieve any sort of military mission.  So, Taking
>a world like Louzy and upgrading it's forcing, you still have a formidable
>force after the reduction.
>
As I said, the stated reason (the necessity of importing all items) is ample
justification for reducing the number of BEs. I would point out that almost
every country in the world imports the balance of their military equipment
and in RL most non-industrial nations put a higher priority on buying
military hardware than they do on buy medical supplies, food, infrastructure
improvements or educational materials. Perhaps this is not true in the 3I
under the grand umbrella of the IN.



Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 18:08:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Jun 21 17:08:54 2002
Subject: [TML] How dangerous is the exhaust then?
In-Reply-To: <F191gLuGHQ9W2pgFKe3000275de@hotmail.com>
References: <F191gLuGHQ9W2pgFKe3000275de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <p04330106b9396dbca0ff@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:05 PM +0000 6/21/02, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

>     "I like to think that the standard 1-6 G maneuver drive is
>reactionless, and doesn't flame the observers."

In my game. Manuever drives are "reactionless" in that they don't 
require reaction mass.  They do, as a byproduct of the process that 
generates thrust, exhaust heat in the direction they thrust.  This 
fits the original CT ability to use them as a weapon and "every 
knows" that a star ship is suppose to whine and kick up dust when it 
lands.  (It also explains why it matters if you have a slab of 
concrete to land on).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 18:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Jun 21 17:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TLBB Cover Generator
In-Reply-To: <200206212336.IYT01773@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEHHHOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Err, theoretically speaking he is carrying an automatic weapon and has
been described as getting this look in his eye.  

jml
who tries NOT to piss off
would be wild-eyed shooters of automatic weapons



"No! No! No!  Not there!  I told you to dig the bunker over 
there, facing that way!  Now fill that in and do it like I 
told you!"
________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 18:14:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri Jun 21 17:14:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU setting
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1024675788.5736.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEGBEBAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> How about Pixie was the victim of an immense natural disaster or act of
>> war? The Class A shipyard, with its destroyed shipyard, sits idle and
>> empty. Obsolete, empty hulks sit in the Navy Base. The only survivors, a
>> group of miners, and their family huddle underground, barely surviving.
The
>> scouts still run XBoats through the system, supported by a pair of
tenders
>> which are station out of a nearby system.
>
>Well, first of all, presumably all those handy resources would mean someone
>would go send people to claim it all.  Secondly, it's not class A unless it
>actually can build ships, which means it's not abandoned, because an
abandoned
>shipyard can't build ships.

So a Class A shipyard on a world which is hit by a disease which kills all
of the people, but leaves all of the machinery, bays, communication
equipment and buildings intact immediately becomes a Class X shipyard?

>It could, in theory, be a robotic shipyard.

Which begs the question: Why aren't all shipyards robotic shipyards?



Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 18:18:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Mellman)
Date: Fri Jun 21 17:18:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Solar Sail question
Message-ID: <200206220011.UAA11871@shell.cinternet.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

 .   > I don't know the details which you asked for, but I do know that solar
 .   > sails are (relative to Traveller) *VERY* slow.  Interplanetary distances
 .   > will take *years*, not the usual Traveller time frame of days or hours
 .   > from orbit to jump or vica versa.
 .   
 .   Nah, even at a measly 0.001 g, you can get a *long* ways in a year.
 .   
 .   If I haven't messed up my figures, you can get 34 AU in a year.


I don't know what figures you used, but that seems fantastically fast
for a solar sail, even for one year.

Where did you get the .001g figure?   How big a sail are you figuring
for, and what is the mass of the ship?



b

 ...........................................................................
  Bill Mellman
  mailto:bill@mellman.net
  http://www.mellman.net/bill/
 ...........................................................................

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 18:20:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Jun 21 17:20:42 2002
Subject: [TML] a question for the Rocket Scientists: What's the purpost
 of aerodynamic hulls?
References: <F16736ankMk2grWsRmG0002781c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D13C0CB.7070109@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> 
>     "Hmm, you seem to be playing a different Olde Game than I've been, 
> as my experience is just the opposite. AFAICR the majority of ships
> have decks parallel to the thrust vector:..."
> 
> 
> Mr. Johnson,
> 
>     You are, of course, correct, sir.  The weary Whipsnadian wetware is 
> on the fritz it seems.  (sigh)
>     May I please borrow your "It's Friday" excuse?

Why certainly! Wonderful thing about excuses like that...they're easily 
shared. ;-)



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 18:23:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Jun 21 17:23:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Someone asked about "slip sticks"
Message-ID: <200206220000.IYT04400@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I have a Pickett 1006T slide rule.  "Exponential trig rule 
with 17 color-coded scales including special Ln scale to 
permit Base e calculations. A powerful pocket trig rule with 
three and four place accuracy". 

Pretty useful for a piece of aluminum with no power source.

________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 18:26:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri Jun 21 17:26:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #648 - 24 msgs
In-Reply-To: <200206201422.IWF00336@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEGCEBAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>One possible reason: if you put your important infrastructure
>>at or outside the 100D limit, then an enemy commerce raider
>>can jump to it, nuke it, and jump out before your defenses
>>can react.  Put it inside the 100D, and your SDB's and/or
>>COACC could make such a manuever a little more suicidal, and
>>thus less likely to happen.
>>
>
>In RL, the port of Dharan has huge port facilities, but the
>supertankers *never* come in port.  They all dock at the
>pumping head miles out in the Persian Gulf.  You might think
>that the pumping head is vulnerable, but there's a strong
>Navy presence.  It's far less cost for a tanker to take on
>oil at the station than to maneuver into port (they can fit,
>but it takes a long time to perform the necessary
>maneuvers).  There's also risk involved with docking at a
>pier with a large vessel (the risk of collision with other
>ships is higher).
>
<SNIP of some good info>
Basically there is no reason to suppose that most ships ever land at a
downport. Most PC ships are freetraders which visit the places the Megacorp
liners do not service. It is reasonable that these kinds of ships are made
to land.

IMTU most liners and freighters are USL vessels with >10,000 dtons
displacement. LASH freighters are the rule, freetraders the exception.
Highports are not generally armed themselves, but a squadron or two of
fighters is almost always stationed aboard, not to mention a SDB or two.

Whether or not the highport is inside the 100D limit or not depends upon the
system's geography.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 18:29:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Jun 21 17:29:09 2002
Subject: [TML] How dangerous is the exhaust then?
In-Reply-To: <F191gLuGHQ9W2pgFKe3000275de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEHJHOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "I like to think that the standard 1-6 G maneuver drive is
reactionless, and doesn't flame the observers."


Mr. Kwon,

     You're right, of course.  No one in their right mind would give a party
of PCs a kilometers long plasma torch.  But...
     I LIKE the idea of manuever drives being fuel hogs.  The idea of
electricity-driven maneuver drives just doesn't sit well with me.  I want
the PCs to worry about how many maneuvering "burns" are left in their tanks
and where they'll be getting their next load of fuel from.  Being able to
thrust for as long as your power plant is running doesn't quite seem "right"
somehow.
     So, what's the answer?  I don't have one!  I haven't been able to come
up with an m-drive idea that uses lots of fuel but doesn't also give the PCs
their own fusion cannon.  Does anyone have a handwave for this?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

how is this?

An M drive is in essence freefall from infinity.  Powered through as off
shoot
of Gravitics research, the thruster is more compact and far more efficient
then rockets, the M drive focuses gravity so that the resultant of natural
gravity
and the force of the applied Maneuver Drive leads you to 'fall' in the
direction
you want to.  As this is a whole body approach you don't get the slamming
around you get with rockets.

There is on catch, the projectors are not a hundred percent efficient and
so they get hot, very hot, metal melting hot, so you end up having to cool
them.
various suggestions have been suggested, which effectively amount to

radiators fin:  these are free, but they take up lots of room, are slow,
there is
lag  so they cannot react effectively to quick applications of power.

closed system radiator, pumping a coolant though the system and hence to
radiators.
this is a lot more expensive, is fragile, and runs you into the thermal
limits of
your working fluid

exhaust systems, this are the ones ultimately used, cooled H2 gas is played
across the
grav element and vented into space as a warm 100's not thousands of degrees
C.
Unlike a water to steam system, this is relatively gentle on the emitters,
is at
a distance, a nuisance instead of a dangerous problem and is technically
simple.  By
turning up the amount of gas used, a huge amount of energy can be
dissipated.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 18:32:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Jun 21 17:32:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TL in the OTU setting
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEGBEBAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1024705790.524.ajackson@ping>

Terry Carlino writes:

> So a Class A shipyard on a world which is hit by a disease which kills all
> of the people, but leaves all of the machinery, bays, communication
> equipment and buildings intact immediately becomes a Class X shipyard?

No, it still has a cleared space and probably a landing beacon, so it becomes a
class E port.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 18:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Jun 21 17:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Third Ring in the Rodeo-
Message-ID: <3D13C541.D5972C11@mail.cswnet.com>

As a means of bringing this back to its original purpose, I'm gonna try
and answer a few of Larsens questions from the Original Rodeo posting. I
don't want to go totally nuts on this, since there's already been a
ships locker thread done some time back. 

The Time: 150-1106
The Ship: ISS Agena [Suleiman Type-S] 
Uses Book2, standard design
The PC: Rodan Tacan
Uses MT character design program by  Greg Svenson.

                         Character Description

Name: Rodan Tacan   Imperial human male 
 str dex end int edu soc   Home World:  UWP=C200200C
    8  10  10  10  10   8             star port = C
    age 34                                 size = small
    apparent age 34                  atmosphere = vacuum
                                          hydro = desert
                                     population = low
                                            law = no
                                     government = none
                                       tech lvl = avg stellar

Career: Scouts Field Survey office medic
  Rank: E4 Skilled Worker
Skills:
Grav Vehicle - 1, Computer - 0, Vacc Suit - 2, History - 1,
Rifleman - 0, Pilot - 4, Bribery - 2, Engineering - 1,
Navigation - 2, Liaison - 1, Ships Boat - 0, Zero-G - 1,
Brawling - 1, Long Blade - 1, Survival - 1, Equestrian - 1,
Medical - 1,

Property:               Credits: 100000
Scout [ISS Agena]


>How did the PCs get their hands on it?

Detached Duty Office, IISS, transfered it to Detached Duty under the
command of Rodan Tacan. Prior commander, Danro Tacan, released the ship
from detached duty at Rabwhar/Lunion. The ship was transfered to survey
duty along the frontier, and eventually found its way back to Regina.
Presently its at UPPORT Berth 49.

>Who built it/Or rebuilt it?
Neo-Planetia Yards, Achemadon/Vincennes/Deneb, for the IISS.

>What is it used for?
Once fully outfitted, Rodan intends to go exploring the galaxy with it.

>How old is it?
Ship is at least 25 years old, it has seen service in the 4th Frontier
War.

>What's that queer foil wrapped package in the crew's freezer marked
>"meat cake"?

No "meat cake", but there is a year and a half old frozen egg roll box.
Lets see [opens freezer] yeah, Schwans Southwest White Meat EGG ROLLS.
There is 10 left in the box. Also of note: in Stateroom one there is a
packet of "Freeze Dried Ice Cream Space Food--Neopolitan Flavored".

>Who died in stateroom number four?
No one yet. There doesn't seem to be any mention of anything bad
happening prior to Danro and Rodan's command.

>Where is the engineer's still hidden?

No still, but their are several cases of Cafeine Free Diet Ochra-Cola
stacked in one corner of the Commons Room.

As for other engineering, Rodan is currently searching for some pvc or
copper piping, between 2-3m long, and at least 15cm diameter. He intends
to use two such pipes in the double turret thats presently empty as
decoy/camouflage to convince anyone looking that the ship is armed. Call
it cheap defense until Rodan gets something better.

>Please tell us those aren't corndogs!!???!
No Larsen. Their EGGROLLS. Here, have one. Yum!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 18:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri Jun 21 17:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why does fule cost so much?
In-Reply-To: <20020620074426.A25012@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEGEEBAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> The problem is that if the ships jump to the 100 diameter limit of
>> the mainworld, they'd have to make *another* jump to get to the GG,
>> or else spend days travelling to it in normal space.
>
>Yes, I had the same thought.  For maximum efficiency for the expensive
>starships, I'd expect many starports to be situated outside the local
>100D limit, or perhaps only just inside the limit.  Unrefined fuel
>would be gathered from wherever (very cheaply since it doesn't require
>cryogenic tanks or jump drives) and refined at or near the starports.
>Shipping refined fuel even insystem is expensive, due to the high cost
>of cryogenic LH2 tanks.
>
>This is very decidedly non-canon, but it seems to me that it offloads
>nearly all the insystem travel time and maneuvering capability to the
>right sort of ships -- inexpensive non-jump ships, rather than
>requiring extremely expensive jump-capable ships to do all their own
>maneuvering.
>
>
>To me, putting the starports on the ground or in low orbit and needing
>maneuvering thrusters to get there seems somewhat akin to building
>ocean ports 100 kilometres inland and putting wheels on all the ships.
>
As I mention in another post. I expect that in the Core worlds highports are
far out, maybe at the 100D limit and systems are serviced by a large fleet
of inner system ships. At the frontier (the Marshes, for example) ports will
be above the main world or on world.

As an aside in some systems it may take almost as long to travel from the
jump point to the destination world as from the nearest system. In that case
a passenger version of the LASH might be used. I think that Quarters
Modules, combined with the Remora class lighters, deployed locally would be
a good solution. A large jump ship could offload modules to the lighter and
pick up modules for shipment out system, all while being refueled. It could
spend mere hours in system before jumping out. Meanwhile the passengers
never leave their staterooms or the passenger lounge. Six or so day later
they arrive at the highport, where each pair of modules are transferred to
slow cutters to allow passengers to be delivered to various local
spaceports.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 18:44:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Jun 21 17:44:58 2002
Subject: [TML] OMAHA Class Battlecruiser
In-Reply-To: <F2370i55VmlrRZi4eQY0000ec5b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020621194043.00991190@minn.net>

At 11:31 PM 6/21/2002 +0000, you wrote:
>From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
>
>     "BC-2  GRAND FORKS..."
>
>
>Mr. Bates,
>
>     May I say how much I've been enjoying your early IW designs?  Giving 
>them an Air Force "lineage" rather than a Navy bloodline is an inspired 
>touch, IMVHO.
>     I do have one teeny-weeny, picayune quibble; why no armor levels?  
>Prior to nuc dampers, the more armor the better.  Agility is always a must, 
>better to avoid being hit at all, but a few armor levels can really make a 
>difference.

Mr Whipsnade, 

This design was originally going to be the 18,000 ton missile cruiser LONG
BEACH, but then I thought, "Nahh, too navy."

The Terrans in general at this point haven't much in the way of experience
in space warfare. Think July 1914 (on the Gregorian calendar) in terms of
theory and experience. (British units of the EU Space Navy will have an
especially rough time of it.) A high acceleration and agility design looks
like a good idea, and the politicians really like it too. Armor is included
when space permits but agility is the priority at this time.

Also as "First World" industial nations begin building TL 10 vessels, they
are selling off the older TL 9 ships to states which are "industrially
impaired". 

Imagine for a moment that you're a mercenary pilot hired the fly the SDB
MUGABE over Harare during the Independence Day parade, and a Vilani strike
force suddenly drops into the Solar System.

Fun. Fun. Fun. <evil grin>

Also, when I was pasting the stats for the OMAHA class into the message, I
forgot to include this:

Ship: Grand Forks
Class: CAT Omaha
Type: Battlecruiser
Architect: Leslie Bates
Tech Level: 10

<grin>



=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 18:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Jun 21 17:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why does fule cost so much?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEGEEBAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEHKHOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

At the risk of sounding somewhat immodest, I wrote a model of this up in
'Biter landgrabbee stuff' ON 5-1-2002. if you want I can repost it,
jml
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>> The problem is that if the ships jump to the 100 diameter limit of
>> the mainworld, they'd have to make *another* jump to get to the GG,
>> or else spend days travelling to it in normal space.
>
>Yes, I had the same thought.  For maximum efficiency for the expensive
>starships, I'd expect many starports to be situated outside the local
>100D limit, or perhaps only just inside the limit.  Unrefined fuel
>would be gathered from wherever (very cheaply since it doesn't require
>cryogenic tanks or jump drives) and refined at or near the starports.
>Shipping refined fuel even insystem is expensive, due to the high cost
>of cryogenic LH2 tanks.
>
>This is very decidedly non-canon, but it seems to me that it offloads
>nearly all the insystem travel time and maneuvering capability to the
>right sort of ships -- inexpensive non-jump ships, rather than
>requiring extremely expensive jump-capable ships to do all their own
>maneuvering.
>
>
>To me, putting the starports on the ground or in low orbit and needing
>maneuvering thrusters to get there seems somewhat akin to building
>ocean ports 100 kilometres inland and putting wheels on all the ships.
>
As I mention in another post. I expect that in the Core worlds highports are
far out, maybe at the 100D limit and systems are serviced by a large fleet
of inner system ships. At the frontier (the Marshes, for example) ports will
be above the main world or on world.

As an aside in some systems it may take almost as long to travel from the
jump point to the destination world as from the nearest system. In that case
a passenger version of the LASH might be used. I think that Quarters
Modules, combined with the Remora class lighters, deployed locally would be
a good solution. A large jump ship could offload modules to the lighter and
pick up modules for shipment out system, all while being refueled. It could
spend mere hours in system before jumping out. Meanwhile the passengers
never leave their staterooms or the passenger lounge. Six or so day later
they arrive at the highport, where each pair of modules are transferred to
slow cutters to allow passengers to be delivered to various local
spaceports.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 19:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Fri Jun 21 18:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020620084351.00a05070@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D13D2FB.9030509@gmx.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 10:33 PM 6/19/02 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>     "...and *never* forget *anything*."
>>
>>     Now THAT sounds like hell on Earth.  Without faulty memories and 
>> the passage of time, how can there be forgiveness?  Or personal 
>> peace?  If you remember every faux pas, every slight, every bad thing 
>> that ever happened to you both perfectly and accurately, you will go 
>> mad.
>>     I'm reminded of a line in one of H. Beam Piper's books.  A local 
>> is watching Federation contragrav lorries flit about, automatic 
>> weapons fire, huge globular starships lift to orbit, along with a 
>> 1001 other wonders and remarks; "I'm glad I am an old man, so I will 
>> not live to see how much the world will change."
>
>
> Laresen, with all due respect, there are three things I'd like to 
> change about the damage cancer did to me.
>
> Get rid of my epilepsy
>
> Get my damn memory back
>
> The third isn't any of your business unless you are an attractive 
> woman or man with designs on my body.
>
> I've though about this a great deal, and always thought that staying 
> sane as an uploaded ghost would require some sort of environment that 
> the ghost can understand.
>
> Take for example my dream of being an exploratory starship.  I'd 
> create several virtual rooms.  A bridge (pure classic Trek) a living 
> room, other rooms as needed.  I would have an avatar, and several AI 
> functions to provide me with opponents for games... (or other 
> activities.)

Why AI? why not take engrams of a few friends...there is a book pon the 
shelves at the moment detailing an adventure of an engram crewed 
exploritory ship (the name escapes me ). depending on the hardware you 
could have anything from a virtual type S to the entire population of 
any given city. Friends, family, etc

>
> As for my perfect memory; store it!  Have a library where everything 
> is compartmentalized.  If I want to remember BayCon '98, I grab the 
> handsome leather-bound volume and the program feeds me the information 
> in pieces.  If I *need* to have instant recall, that can happen as well.
>
> In my example, it would be a simple matter to slow my program down so  
> that the trip to Tau Ceti seems to take a week. Automated systems 
> bring me up to full speed if anything goes wrong, and also when we 
> reach the heliopause.  I then spend a pleasant fifty years exploring 
> the system before moving on.
>
Or the mother ship arrives in system, refuels, repairs and makes a 
exploratory hub, copies or installs you and you build and 
explore/colonise the system while the mother ship moves on. There could 
be 50 or 60 or whatever "Doug Berry" systems out there.


-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 19:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Jun 21 18:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Frames and Wind Shear
Message-ID: <137.10017c82.2a452e97@aol.com>

Bill Mellman <mellman@cinternet.net> writes:

>Timothy Little wrote:
> .   Wind shear on an open frame is a real bitch, and will almost always
> .   come from an unexpected angle and definitely not in line with the
> .   normal thruster stresses.
>
>
>The arguments regarding wind sheer, and wind stresses for open and
>closed structured hulls don't hold water for me.  Say we look at a
>microwave tower as an example of an open structure:  those things are
>designed to withstand gale force winds.  I'm guessing at least 150 mph.
>If you're going 150mph you can get from Shuttle orbit to ground in
>one hour.  Doesn't seem to bad to me.  

The wind shear on that cell tower is being absorbed through a little flexing, 
but is mostly being passed along to the *ground* in which the tower is firmly 
anchored. Set that same tower up on the surface, with only it's own weight to 
protect it, and see how long it lasts.
  Wind shear on a vehicle, be it a car, motorcycle, or starship, isn't about 
deforming the vehicle, it's about causing changes in velocity. Uncontrolled, 
unpredictable, and wildly variable changes in velocity. Ever shared a freeway 
with a dozen semi-trucks with open loads, high speeds, and a 40mph gusty 
crosswind?

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 19:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Jun 21 18:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Solar Sail question
In-Reply-To: <200206220011.UAA11871@shell.cinternet.net>
References: <200206220011.UAA11871@shell.cinternet.net>
Message-ID: <20020622114628.B30688@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bill Mellman wrote:
> Where did you get the .001g figure?  How big a sail are you figuring
> for, and what is the mass of the ship?

For my wild-guess earlier estimate, the TTL-D 100 dton solar yacht I
roughed out should be able to get 0.005 gees at Earth orbit (or the
equivalent other stellar life zones).  Current lightsail designs are
only expected to be capable of about 0.0001 gee, though this may
improve by a factor of three to ten in the relatively near future.

Both would diminish with the inverse square of distance from the star.
In one year including deceleration, a TL7 design should be able to
travel about 1.5 AU.  Without any propellant, this is pretty good.

The TTL-D version would be more limited by escape velocities than by
acceleration.  To reduce outward velocity you have to rely on gravity,
either of the star or of a major planet or two.  You can't exceed
their escape velocities by much before you find that you can't stop.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 19:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Jun 21 18:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani starship architectural styles
Message-ID: <b4.d5898e9.2a453234@aol.com>

I worked up a piece on the Zho ships based on the published examples, mostly 
illustrated by the Kieth Bros.

http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html

and follow the Zhodani "stuff" link. It can also be found via a link on the 
shipyard page...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 19:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Fri Jun 21 18:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Solar Sail question
In-Reply-To: <200206220011.UAA11871@shell.cinternet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020621220644.00a37040@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
   If you aren't afraid to check into GURPS SPACE or GURPS VEHICLES - there 
are rules there for light sails.  If you get the vehicles companions - 
there are even more rules for space craft propulsion.  And if you get your 
hands on TRANSHUMAN SPACE, you will find rules for mag sails and other 
exotic types... ;)

              Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 20:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Jun 21 19:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani starship architectural styles
In-Reply-To: <b4.d5898e9.2a453234@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEHNHOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I wish I had seen this earlier, sigh.  Actually with a bit
of semantic playing the Kriviets do fill most of the
qualifications on the page.

if you assume that the M drive vents are placed differently
and that the ASCII drawing was extremely abstract, necked the
two and three parts you could say they were organics --
less likely or blockies -- more likely.  Spikyies are,
I'm afraid straight out.



jml
that's my story and I'm sticking to it

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


I worked up a piece on the Zho ships based on the published examples, mostly
illustrated by the Kieth Bros.

http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html

and follow the Zhodani "stuff" link. It can also be found via a link on the
shipyard page...

GC
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 20:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Jun 21 19:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Someone asked about "slip sticks"
In-Reply-To: <200206220000.IYT04400@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9392E27.60FD7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/21/02 5:00 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I have a Pickett 1006T slide rule.  "Exponential trig rule
> with 17 color-coded scales including special Ln scale to
> permit Base e calculations. A powerful pocket trig rule with
> three and four place accuracy".
> 
> Pretty useful for a piece of aluminum with no power source.

I'm looking at my Pickett N-500-ES, with a mere 22 scales.  Once, this was
magical tool of science.  These days it's a curiosity.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 20:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Fri Jun 21 19:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Another Lifeboat for the Ship Rodeo
Message-ID: <F238z63Bma4RCIlWrdF0000491d@hotmail.com>

>>When I saw this excellent design, I was reminded of a small pet peevee of 
>>mine. The lack of lifeboats in offical starship designs. I admit this is 
>>something I often forget myself :-)
>
>Since many standard hulls come with hardpoint capable of taking standard 3 
>DT turrets, it seems only reasonable that there would exist
>a number of 3DT lifeboats.
>
>And so, another entry...
>
>As long as my name remains attached, permission is granted to post
>this anywhere.

<BIG SNIP>

This is an excellent example of parallel evolution. I posted a similar 
design to my homepage back in September 2000 
(http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/ships/rescuepod3.html). The major 
difference between the designs seems to be that the Safe-T-Pod has higher 
performance and costs a bit more (must remember to retrofit contra grav to 
my design). There is a slight problem with you design though. The minimum 
size of thruster plates is 10m3 and it looks like your thruster plates are 
ten times smaller. The larger thruster plates would kick the price above 10 
MCr.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 21:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Jun 21 20:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo Update as of digest#656
Message-ID: <F107DBDirRxXEv22YPK00001856@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "I think I did the lifeboat at the bottom..."


Mr. Kwon,

     Yes you did, sir.  The gentlemen to whom it was improperly acredited 
spoke up and requested we correct our error.
     The lifeboat now has your name attached to it.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 21:06:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Jun 21 20:06:11 2002
Subject: [TML] What's the purpose of aerodynamic hulls?
Message-ID: <F188CyPgEjw1ZLFjwsc00002a1c@hotmail.com>

From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>

     "I think you DID both say the same thing, just with different words."


Mr. St. Clair,

     While that would be a very kind way to read my faux pas, the fact is 
that I indeed had my description "bass ackwards".


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 21:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Fri Jun 21 20:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How dangerous is the exhaust then?
Message-ID: <F256yvfUXl5nNmaKKl60000e872@hotmail.com>

>"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>You're right, of course.  No one in their right mind would give a party of 
>PCs a kilometers long plasma torch.  But...
>I LIKE the idea of manuever drives being fuel hogs.  The idea of 
>electricity-driven maneuver drives just doesn't sit well with me.  >I  want 
>the PCs to worry about how many maneuvering "burns" are left in  their 
>tanks and where they'll be getting their next load of fuel from.  Being 
>able to thrust for as long as your power plant is running >doesn't quite 
>seem "right"
>somehow.
>     So, what's the answer?  I don't have one!  I haven't been able to come 
>up with an m-drive idea that uses lots of fuel but doesn't also give the 
>PCs their own fusion cannon.  Does anyone have a handwave for this?

Sir, welcome to the wonderful world of the Neutrino Mass Conversion drive. 
The NAC drive converts hydrogen atoms into a stream of neutrinos (or similar 
non-interacting particle). The NAC drive consumes fuel at a rate about 1/7th 
of TNE&#8217;s HePlaR so it's not exactly a high rate but the low density of 
liquid hydrogen makes it hard to carry large amounts of fuel. If one carry 
1% ship mass of fuel (~10-20% ship volume depending on ship average density) 
this would give ~84 G-hours. One could also make hydrogen storage expensive 
instead of free.

Conversion rules for CT (book5) ships.
1. Rename drive.
2. Assume the "Power plant and Manuever fuel" is used primarily in the NAT 
drive.
3. The ship has "8*PowerPlantRating" G-hours (Assuming 1% volume = 0.1% 
mass).

Conversion rules for TNE ships.
1. Rename drive.
2. Multiply G-turns by x7.

Hope this helps.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 21:19:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Jun 21 20:19:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Someone asked about "slip sticks"
Message-ID: <F726PnPlpNvHXsprw0m000002c3@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "Pretty useful for a piece of aluminum with no power source."


Mr. Kwon,

     Bio-electrically powered surely...


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 21:24:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Jun 21 20:24:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Let the Kriviet play (was Rodeo Update as of Digest#658)
References: <20020622001724.0902627A6E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D13ED13.8C9CDB6F@ameritech.net>


> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 18:29:47 -0500
> From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>

<snip>

> More from John-Martin:
> >the Kriviet isn't a formal entry, it's more of a type
> >description,  I'll leave it up the to will of the TML
> >list if that one is included
> 
> Kriviet will be moved to the waiting in the wings section
> pending "will of the TML".

I say let it in. If for some reason it offends people that it isn't a
complete design they don't have to vote for it. 

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 21:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Jun 21 20:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How dangerous is the exhaust then?
Message-ID: <F184KPBYT1tOUZeVeIn000028c9@hotmail.com>

From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

     "How is this?"

     "...the projectors are not a hundred percent efficient and so they get 
hot, very hot, metal melting hot, so you end up having to cool them."

     "...exhaust systems, this are the ones ultimately used, cooled H2 gas 
is played across the grav element and vented into space as a warm 100's not 
thousands of degrees C."


Mr. Lotz,

     I like it!  Consider your idea stolen!
     I'm sure the List's physics boffins will immediately begin to chime in 
with "liquid hydrogen is a poor choice as a working fluid", but, rather than 
shoot the idea down off hand, could there be a plausible reason hydrogen was 
chosen?  Or several plausible reasons?
     Mr. Lotz suggested that hydrogen is innocuous towards the emitters.  
Any other ideas out there?

     "By turning up the amount of gas used, a huge amount of energy can be 
dissipated."

     Very nice touch.  As you produce more gees, you'll need more cooling, 
and expend more hydrogen.
     If we take the Mr. Lotz's idea just a wee bit further, short duration 
"stealth" systems could be developed.  If a vessel didn't want to expell a 
cloud of hydrogen heated to 100's of degC, a less efficient internal heat 
exchanger system could be brought on line for a limited time.  The heat 
exchanger could get the job done, getting worse the longer it is used, until 
it cannot be used any further and the heat stored in it vented in some 
manner.
     "Sneaky" ships may have dTons of special equipment in their engineering 
spaces for this very purpose.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 21:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Jun 21 20:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Let the Kriviet play (was Rodeo Update as of Digest#658)
Message-ID: <F221vdrEb6MXb0zrAXB0001c76f@hotmail.com>

From: David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net>

     "I say let it in. If for some reason it offends people that it isn't a 
complete design they don't have to vote for it."


Mr. Shayne,

     The Kriviet is already in the Rodeo and will stay there unless Mr. Lotz 
wishes it removed.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 21:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Jun 21 20:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Has anyone landgrabbed Vilis?
Message-ID: <009c01c2199e$83a745a0$bc5d8690@computer>

What the subject line says: Has anyone landgrabbed Vilis.

If not, I am _considering_ it. I think that the Imperium's own high
population Sword World needs a bit of attention.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 22:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Jun 21 21:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How dangerous is the exhaust then?
In-Reply-To: <F184KPBYT1tOUZeVeIn000028c9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEICHOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Larsen wrote:
:
:

     I'm sure the List's physics boffins will immediately begin to chime in
with "liquid hydrogen is a poor choice as a working fluid", but, rather than
shoot the idea down off hand, could there be a plausible reason hydrogen was
chosen?  Or several plausible reasons?

>>>>>>>>>>>

As a minimalist rationale, there is a lot of H2 out there. While
other working fluids are possible, the thruster elements were designed
to work with H2. This impacts materials used, design elements, monitoring
systems and so forth.

This could also be a good rationale for refined fuel, impurities do nasty
things to the workings of your maneuver drive, especially if you use it
for a long time

jml

_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 23:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Jun 21 22:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OMAHA Class Battlecruiser
Message-ID: <F6ZCyECQ5IVaMASsTY000002fb8@hotmail.com>

From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>

     This design was originally going to be the 18,000 ton missile cruiser 
LONG BEACH, but then I thought, "Nahh, too navy."


Mr. Bates,

     Good call!

     "The Terrans in general at this point haven't much in the way of 
experience in space warfare. Think July 1914 (on the Gregorian calendar) in 
terms of theory and experience."

     "A high acceleration and agility design looks like a good idea, and the 
politicians really like it too. Armor is included when space permits but 
agility is the priority at this time."

     Very nice twist on things, sir.  Because the Terrans don't have HG2, 
they cannot munchkin-ize their designs as I do! ;)
     I like the idea of political whims driving design choices too.  
Jefferson's scrapping of most of the USN in favor of rowed gunboats is a 
good example.  FDR's preference for nearly worthless sub-chasers as opposed 
to a militarized version of a USCG cutter is another good example.
     Dredging up another WW1 factoid you might find use for, after Dogger 
Bank, the RN and the KM came to exact opposite conclusions when surveying 
the battle damage.  The pounding KMS DERFFLINGER(sp?) took convinced 
Wilhelmine Germany to installed more anti-flash scuttles along their ships' 
ammunition handle paths.  It seems that several vessels in the RN removed 
their anti-flash scuttles in an attempt to speed firing rates.  And we all 
know what happened at Jutland later.

     "Imagine for a moment that you're a mercenary pilot hired the fly the 
SDB MUGABE over Harare during the Independence Day parade, and a Vilani 
strike force suddenly drops into the Solar System."

     Oooh, NASTY.  But if I survive, His Majesty Emperor Robert the 23rd of 
Zimbabwe will give me someone else's farm.  ;)

     "I forgot to include this:
     Ship: Grand Forks
     Class: CAT Omaha"

     I wondered about that corporation's name...


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 23:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Jun 21 22:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How dangerous is the exhaust then?
In-Reply-To: <F184KPBYT1tOUZeVeIn000028c9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEIEHOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Larsen wrote:
:
:


     If we take the Mr. Lotz's idea just a wee bit further, short duration
"stealth" systems could be developed.  If a vessel didn't want to expell a
cloud of hydrogen heated to 100's of degC, a less efficient internal heat
exchanger system could be brought on line for a limited time.  The heat
exchanger could get the job done, getting worse the longer it is used, until
it cannot be used any further and the heat stored in it vented in some
manner.
     "Sneaky" ships may have dTons of special equipment in their engineering
spaces for this very purpose.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

>>>>>>>>>>

This is pure intellectual exercise on my part -- an, at times, scary
prospect but ...

If you assume that Gravitations are hard to detect, a low temperature
low velocity, 'exhaust' for Maneuver Drives would make combat much
more interesting.  Sensors Operations become a lot more important.
Your opposition has places where the 'exhaust' could be hidden.  Tactics
become a lot more important as it is possible to sneak up on enemy.

With no ECM's long plume of High energy exhaust pointing at him -- or
her -- the ECM, to say nothing of a full time pro, might well be
able to engage in a spot of Piracy and escape to who knows where with the
swag.  With gimme spotting rolls gone outside of firm radar range, time
honored tricks like attacking out of the Sun could make a comeback,
and smaller patrol and screening and picket ships become lot more important
in naval warfare.

As a somewhat related note, in thinking about the unstreamlined ships
landing thread, Larsen's internal emissions, and the "Maneuver Drive
no like impurities: idea of mine, would give a ship architect the
option of either getting a ship to the ground fast - read streamlined-
or installing a honking big grav system like you find conventional
airraft or such like -- read big, expensive and redundant, since out
in space where M drives / thrusters or what have you work best

jml




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Jun 21 23:29:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Jun 21 22:29:45 2002
Subject: [TML] How dangerous is the exhaust then?
Message-ID: <F2657uEzW4VMhZCw9VH00025305@hotmail.com>

From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

     "As a minimalist rationale, there is a lot of H2 out there. While
other working fluids are possible, the thruster elements were designed
to work with H2. This impacts materials used, design elements, monitoring 
systems and so forth."


Mr. Lotz,

     I'm convinced already.  Your spin on Traveller's maneuver drives is 
being blended into the WTU as we type.
     It's the others I was fretting about.  I know we'll get a very long 
post, full of equations and numbers, explaining why this make believe device 
can't work in our make believe universe.  (sigh)

     "This could also be a good rationale for refined fuel, impurities do 
nasty things to the workings of your maneuver drive, especially if you use 
it for a long time."

     Great, nice touch.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 00:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Jun 21 23:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How dangerous is the exhaust then?
In-Reply-To: <F184KPBYT1tOUZeVeIn000028c9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B93963C9.6104C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 6/21/02 8:31 PM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:

> Very nice touch.  As you produce more gees, you'll need more cooling,
> and expend more hydrogen.
> If we take the Mr. Lotz's idea just a wee bit further, short duration
> "stealth" systems could be developed.  If a vessel didn't want to expell a
> cloud of hydrogen heated to 100's of degC, a less efficient internal heat
> exchanger system could be brought on line for a limited time.  The heat
> exchanger could get the job done, getting worse the longer it is used, until
> it cannot be used any further and the heat stored in it vented in some
> manner.
> "Sneaky" ships may have dTons of special equipment in their engineering
> spaces for this very purpose.

You make a good argument for good old water, which is know for its ability
to absorb heat (one calorie will raise 1 g 1 degree celcius.  Water is
infinitely easier to store than hydrogen too.  I personally never like the
whole liquid hydrogen thing.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 00:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Jun 21 23:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rationalizing the 6 G limit
Message-ID: <B939658F.61055%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

All this stuff on drives has got me thinking.  Has anyone worked up a
rationalization for the 6 G acceleration?

I mean, looking at two ships with identical volume and thrust.  Now make one
non-jump capable and remove the fuel and jump drive.  There's less mass, but
the same thrust.

F=ma, ergo the non-jump ship should have more acceleration.  Why not?

Why are missiles no faster than the fastest ship?  We can build guidance
components that can handle much greater acceleration now.  What's the
limiter?

Interested in your input.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 00:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Jun 21 23:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rationalizing the 6 G limit
Message-ID: <200206220630.XAA28438@molly.iii.com>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:

>All this stuff on drives has got me thinking.  Has anyone worked up a
>rationalization for the 6 G acceleration?
>
>I mean, looking at two ships with identical volume and thrust.  Now make one
>non-jump capable and remove the fuel and jump drive.  There's less mass, but
>the same thrust.
>
>F=ma, ergo the non-jump ship should have more acceleration.  Why not?

Well, IMTU M-drives are gravity drives, not reactionless drives.  They
simply can't do more than 6G.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 00:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Fri Jun 21 23:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rationalizing the 6 G limit
Message-ID: <F82G1IBiyByBOsObND40000e378@hotmail.com>



>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>All this stuff on drives has got me thinking.  Has anyone worked up a
>rationalization for the 6 G acceleration?

Is there a 6G limit in the first place? Sure, CT (and MT?) design rules can 
be read that way but they are simple modular systems in an era without easy 
computations and they have a lot of artificial limits (e.g. there is also a 
"min 1G limit"). Since the more detailed system (FFS1&2) don't have this 
limit I don't think it's correct to state that there is no limit. A TL15 
FFS2 starship consisting of nothing but thruster plates and power plant can 
do about 20G. The same setup with HePlaR can achive ~40G (~75G at TL16).

>I mean, looking at two ships with identical volume and thrust.  Now make 
>one non-jump capable and remove the fuel and jump drive.  There's less 
>mass, but the same thrust.
>
>F=ma, ergo the non-jump ship should have more acceleration.  Why not?

The problem is that CT ships don't use mass. From this we can draw the 
conclusion that the concept of mass will be depricated in the Far Future. ;)


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 01:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Jun 22 00:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Rationalizing the 6 G limit
Message-ID: <F60S8YkdavN3qljWwY00000247c@hotmail.com>

From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

     "All this stuff on drives has got me thinking.  Has anyone worked up a 
rationalization for the 6 G acceleration?"


Mr. Glenn,

     My handwave applies to manned vessel only, it's upper limit for 
constant operation internal compensators.  A shabby excuse I know, but it 
worked.

     "Why are missiles no faster than the fastest ship?  We can build 
guidance components that can handle much greater acceleration now.  What's 
the limiter?"

     Once again, I slapped another shabby coat of handwavium-infused paint 
on this one.  The 6gee limit is for civilian missiles, the big boys don't 
let you buy the good stuff.
     I can't remember, or find, the numbers now, but we had higher missile 
accelerations in our HG/Mayday fusion games.  IIRC, it worked something like 
this:  Somewhere there's a Mayday hex-to-HG range band conversion; something 
like short is up to X hexes and long is up to Y hexes.  A HG combat round is 
twenty minutes and missiles attack a vessel in the same round they are 
launched.  So, we took the maximum distance in Mayday hexes of the HG long 
range band and figured what missile acceleration was needed to cross that 
from a standing start.  I can't dredge up that number at the moment though, 
sorry.
     We also didn't realize how well canon Traveller ships stuck out against 
the backdrop of space when viewed by canon Traveller sensors, so we had 
"limited" detection range bands winkled out of HG.  They were short, long, 
"bogey", and "deep".
     If a vessel was within long range, you knew what it was.  Up to the 
same amount hexes beyond that was bogey range band (i.e. if long range was 
10 hexes, then bogey range was another 10 hexes), you simply knew that 
"something" was out there.  We rolled spotting attempts against the 
spotter's computer rating with HG's target size to-hit dms.  Succeed in your 
roll and the vessel is spotted and can be attacked with missiles only.
     Vessels in the deep range band could be spotted with a successful 
computer roll at -2 and with the target size to-hit dms.  They couldn't be 
attacked however.
     Squatting on top of all this foolishness were several tries at an 
operational map.  Each hex on this map would equate a certain number of 
hexes on the Mayday map.  We never did quite this worked out.
     With all this silliness in place, our HG fleets and battles usually 
featured a battle line led and flanked by faster, lighter forces acting as 
"scouts", usually 6gee, non-jump vessels with the biggest honking computer 
we could cram aboard.  If your scouts could get a peek at the other fellow 
while he was still in the bogey range band and prevent him from getting a 
similar peek at you, you might have the chance to hammer him with missile 
volleys.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 03:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Edward Swatschek)
Date: Sat Jun 22 02:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Uploading (was: Query)
In-Reply-To: <20020621114505.A27962@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020620221725.709DB27BD6@mail.travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020620153124.009f2be0@mailhost.efn.org> <20020621114505.A27962@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020622091946.VVWZ14925.priv-edtnes04.telusplanet.net@there>

On Thursday 20 June 2002 18:45, Timothy Little wrote:
>
> > Much more likely, the result would be a copy of my brainstate going
> > on to do keen stuff while I wake up with a vague headache and live
> > out the rest of my mortal life.
>
> Another equally valid way to look at it, is that you get to live on in
> the computational world while a copy of you wakes up with a vague
> headache.  They are *both* future versions of you, just different
> futures.

I don't see it that way - that which me stays with me.  Whatever I is, is 
still sitting in my cranium the next day.


-- 
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 03:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Jun 22 02:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How dangerous is the exhaust then?
In-Reply-To: <20020621222510.3555B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17Lh5s-0001gd-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Mr. Kwon,
> 
> You're right, of course.  No one in their right mind would give a party 
> of PCs a kilometers long plasma torch.  But...
>  I LIKE the idea of manuever drives being fuel hogs.  The idea of
> electricity-driven maneuver drives just doesn't sit well with me.  I
> want the PCs to worry about how many maneuvering "burns" are left in
> their tanks and where they'll be getting their next load of fuel from.
>  Being able to thrust for as long as your power plant is running
> doesn't quite seem "right" somehow.
> So, what's the answer?  I don't have one!  I haven't been able to come 
> up with an m-drive idea that uses lots of fuel but doesn't also give
> the PCs their own fusion cannon.  Does anyone have a handwave for
> this?

Just say that thrusters use <a handwave no worse than jump 
drive> to convert fusing hydrogen into a directional beam of 
neutrinos.  The ISP of this drive is 30,000,000 (7.5 x better than 
Heplar rockets) and the fuel usage is about equal to the fuel usage 
of old High Guard ships (a *very* good thing in my book).

The drive might not be totally harmless (given the data about the 
existence of *lethal* neutrino fluxes from supernovas), but with this 
sort of drive brief exposure would at most require some anti-
radiation treatments.  You most certainly can't casually slag 
mountains or cities with this sort of drive, it will literally many tens 
of thousands times safer and less damaging than fusion jet.  All 
you really need to do is make certain the exhaust plume flares out 
enough that it is utterly harmless at a range of a few hundred km 
and you have a relatively safe, highly efficient reaction drive.


-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 03:25:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Jun 22 02:25:39 2002
Subject: [TML] a question for the Rocket Scientists:  What's the purpose of aerodynamic hulls?
In-Reply-To: <20020622001720.88FE327A7F@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17Lh5p-0001gd-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

> sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > I can see not being able to do gas giant refuelling in a ship shaped
> > like a shoe box, but I don't see any problem with landing on a
> > terrestrial planet.
> > 
> > What am I missing?
> 
> Nothing but time, as far as I can tell.  A box can probably only
> manage a fifth of the speed of a streamlined ship.  Although, in GURPS
> there is no maximum speed difference between No and Good streamlining
> (1000 km/hr), and only minimal advantage to Very Good (1200 km/hr).
> 
> Not that streamlining makes much difference to the design sequence,
> just a minor extra cost to the basic hull structure (typically about
> 1% of the ship's cost).  I don't know about other Traveller ship
> design systems.

In GURPS the difference is a whopping 20% of the hull volume, 
which is honestly my only beef with the GURPS Traveller ships 
designe system, I like everything else about it *much* better.


-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 03:28:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Jun 22 02:28:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Uploading (was: Query)
In-Reply-To: <20020622091946.VVWZ14925.priv-edtnes04.telusplanet.net@there>
References: <20020620221725.709DB27BD6@mail.travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020620153124.009f2be0@mailhost.efn.org> <20020621114505.A27962@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020622091946.VVWZ14925.priv-edtnes04.telusplanet.net@there>
Message-ID: <20020622192604.A31450@freeman.little-possums.net>

Edward Swatschek wrote:
> I don't see it that way - that which me stays with me.

Like, your soul?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 04:08:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Jun 22 03:08:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Someone asked about "slip sticks"
Message-ID: <memo.460167@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B9392E27.60FD7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Mine is a nice light pocket-sized plastic jobbie in a case... I won it in 
a competition in 1974!

And have been using it ever since :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 04:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Jun 22 03:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Revised Lifeboat for the Ship Rodeo
In-Reply-To: <20020622023906.5D12727A12@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17Lhz0-0003jk-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>

"Patrik Holmstr=F6m" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com> wrote:

> >Since many standard hulls come with hardpoint capable of taking
> >standard 3 DT turrets, it seems only reasonable that there would
> >exist a number of 3DT lifeboats.
> >
> >And so, another entry...
> >
> >As long as my name remains attached, permission is granted to post
> >this anywhere.
> 
> <BIG SNIP>
> 
> This is an excellent example of parallel evolution. I posted a similar
> design to my homepage back in September 2000
> (http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/ships/rescuepod3.html). The
> major difference between the designs seems to be that the Safe-T-Pod
> has higher performance and costs a bit more (must remember to retrofit
> contra grav to my design). There is a slight problem with you design
> though. The minimum size of thruster plates is 10m3 and it looks like
> your thruster plates are ten times smaller. The larger thruster plates
> would kick the price above 10 MCr.

You are quite correct sir.  My fault for trusting the spreadsheet too 
much.  HEPlaR + Contragrav is far more reasonable, and 4.4 G-
Hours should be sufficient for any in-system maneuvering (you 
won't go fast, but you'll get there).  

Here's the revised lifeboat:

As long as my name remains attached, permission is granted to 
post this anywhere.

Idea: Since many standard hulls come with hardpoint capable of 
taking  standard 3 DT turrets, it seems only reasonable that there 
would  exist a number of 3DT lifeboats designed to fit in turret 
sockets. 

Many ship owners worry about pirates and external attack and  
spend many megacredits purchasing expensive and largely  
unnecessary weaponry.  However, far too few travelers worry about  
the possibility of critical mechanical failures before they happen.   

Why risk you and your pasengers dying with your ship, when for  
less than a megacredit you can guarantee your safety with the 
reliable Safe-T-Pod turret socket lifeboat.  Capable of making 
planetry landing and carrying up to six people to safety -  
you have to ask yourself if you are willing to make this investment  
in your safety.   

Safe-T-pod class Turret Socket Lifeboat 
(FF&S v2)				

Tons: 3std ( SL Short Cylinder Simple )	Crew: 
2/2	Cargo: 0.1 std (0/00)	
Volume: 42m3		Passengers High/Med: 0/0	
Cost: 0.995 MCr	
Mass (L/C): 18t/18t		Passengers Low: 4 (ELB)	
Maintenance Points: 0	
Dimensions: 3.7m x 3.7m x 3.7m 
Troops/Science: 0/0	Tech Level: 15	
Size: 6		Frozen Watch: 0		
			
Controls: Holographic, High automation. 3xComp 
(CM:1.0 CP:1.0). No bridge.				
Communications: 1xRadio (50,000km, 0.02 MW). 
1xLaser (1,000AU, 0 MW). 				
Sensors: 1xPEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm], 0 MW). 				
Survey/Science: 				
ECM: 				
Signatures: Vis:-1.5, IR:-1 (-1 at 1 MW, -2 at 
0MW), Act:0, Neu:-1, Grav:-2				
				
Performance		
0	Jump	
1.1/1.1	Maneuver (/HEPlaR:1 MW, 4.4 G-hours)	
1.1/1.2	Contra-grav (0.36 MW)	
320kph/320kph	Atmosphere (/Crus:240kph/240kph)	
1	Power (/Fus:1.4 MW,1yr )	
0	Battery	
0.14 m^3	Fusion Fuel
1 m^3    	HEPlaR reaction mass	
0/0/0/0/1	Accomodations 	
2 Adequate Seats (one for the pilot, one for the 
co-pilot/medic) if lifeboat workstations can be 
made half size (3.5 m^3).  If not then replace 
this with a single 7 m^3 workstation

1 Emergency Low Berth (holds 4 occupants)
0.1 m^3 cargo bay for various emergency supplies
6	Life Sup. (/Ty:St,Nm /'St)	
2	G-Comp 	
0	ESA	
0	Sandcasters	
0	Damper Turrets	
0	Damper Screen 	
0	Meson Screen 	
0	Force Field	
0	Gravtics	
10 [29]	Armor, 0 Structure	
1x 3 m^3 Airlock				
1x Ship's locker (0.02 m^3)


-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 04:22:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Jun 22 03:22:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Solar Sail question
In-Reply-To: <20020622023906.5D12727A12@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17Lhz2-0003jk-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

> Bill Mellman wrote:
> > Where did you get the .001g figure?  How big a sail are you figuring
> > for, and what is the mass of the ship?
> 
> For my wild-guess earlier estimate, the TTL-D 100 dton solar yacht I
> roughed out should be able to get 0.005 gees at Earth orbit (or the
> equivalent other stellar life zones).  Current lightsail designs are
> only expected to be capable of about 0.0001 gee, though this may
> improve by a factor of three to ten in the relatively near future.

However, I honestly doubt that solar sails will ever be built in any 
numbers, even for fancy racing yachts, since there is an alternative 
that is far superior in cost, mass, size, acceleration and 
appearance - plasma sails:

See 
http://www.geophys.washington.edu/Space/SpaceModel/M2P2/

and the links on this page for lots of info on plasma sails.  Solar 
sails even loose aesthetically to these things (at least to me) since 
being surrounded by this *hug* glowing corona seems far cooler 
than simply having a big piece of reflective mylar stuck in front of 
you.  Instead, you are flying in the middle of a huge lenticular 
aurora.  I can see plasma sail racing yachts being really popular.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 04:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Jun 22 03:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] a question for the Rocket Scientists:  What's the purpose of aerodynamic hulls?
In-Reply-To: <E17Lh5p-0001gd-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <20020622001720.88FE327A7F@mail.travellercentral.com> <E17Lh5p-0001gd-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020622203840.A31549@freeman.little-possums.net>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> In GURPS the difference is a whopping 20% of the hull volume,

No, that's just the volume that can't be in the *main body*.  I had
cause to re-read that section today as I was designing a robot.  It
means that about 18% of the total volume must be devoted to wings,
pods, and other such subassemblies attached to the body.  Wings are an
ideal place to put fuel, for example.

To quote: "The sum of component volume (including empty space)
multiplied as shown above [i.e. x1.2] is the body's real volume. ..."
and a bit further on "The real body volume must exceed the *combined*
volume of all turrets, arms, open mounts, superstructures and pods
directly attached to the body." [Emphasis mine]

In short, only the main body suffers a loss of volume.  That volume
doesn't just disappear -- it can go to other structures attached to
the body.  Particularly wings and/or external pods, but also legs or
arms.

In practice, the only effect is an increase in total structural
surface area, since other assemblies have their surface area
calculated separately and added to that of the body.  This makes sense
since streamlined shapes *do* have more surface area for a given
volume.  And of course there is a price increase for the basic
structure, but that's only the 1% or so I quoted.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 05:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Bryn=20Monnery?=)
Date: Sat Jun 22 04:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: FFW Forces
In-Reply-To: <20020621222510.3555B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020622113444.64842.qmail@web13902.mail.yahoo.com>

I think the real problem is that in different editions
things are different.

In CT, the Imperium is a "weak" feudal state. Dukes
command their own forces (ground and space) in the
name of the Emperor. Planetary nobles could raise
their own forces (planetary fleets), as could the
subsector duke (the Colonial Fleet). It was the power
of the Imperial Fleet which kept the colonies in line,
not the presence of ground forces.

In MT the Ducal fleets (Colonial and Planetary Fleets)
become simply reserves for the Imperial Navy,
reporting to the Imperial Fleet Admiral (Vice Admiral
in todays terms). However, the feudalism of the system
can be seen as a reason for it's collapse. Once Lucan
withdrew the fleets, there was nothing to keep the
local nobles in line anymore, or indeed in power (the
colonial fleets being their own "big stick" keeping
them in power). Those that complied were overwhelmed
(e.g. the "High" Duke of Corridor), those that didn't
(notably the Archduke of Antares and the "High" Duke
of Daibei) became rebels. Note that these were ordered
to commit their fleets and refused, a basically feudal
arrangement. This is because it placed the sector duke
(as the Emperors representative) over the Sector
Admiral (hence Norris could relieve Santonocheev)

TNE said little on the subject (I believe the Regency
SB did, but I never saw it over here). G:T has
strengthened the Imperium more, with the army having a
basically American system, the ducal troops becoming
little more than a National Guard.

Unfortunately, I'm stuck in the CT universe ;-)

Bryn

=====
"I knew it on the roof that night. We were brothers, Roy Batty and I! Combat models of the highest order. We had fought in wars not yet dreamed of... in vast nightmares still unnamed. We were the new people... Roy and me and Rachael! We were made for this world. It was ours!"

- Final Line of Blade Runner: Original Preview Cut

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 06:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Jun 22 05:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo entry: Wizard's Gift Class Frontier Trader (type ZM)
Message-ID: <005001c219e5$a7eb0e00$ae5d8690@computer>

Wizard's Gift Class Frontier Trader (type ZM)

(Book 2 Design)
This design is based upon a design found in CT Alien Module 4: Zhodani.
Modifications and corrections have been made.

------------------------------------------

Using a 400-ton hull, the Wizard's Gift Class Frontier Trader is a merchant
vessel used by small companies or individual in frontier regions in and
around the Imperium. It mounts jump drive-D, maneuver drive-C, and power
plant-D, giving a performance of jump-2 and 1G acceleration. Fuel tankage
for 100 tons supports the power plant and one jump-3. Adjacent to the bridge
is a computer Model/2. There are 16 staterooms. The ship has two hardpoints
and two tons allocated to fire control. There is two ship's vehicles: a 40
ton pinnace and a 4 ton air/raft. Cargo capacity is 125 tons. The hull is
streamlined.

The ship requires a crew of 6 : pilot, navigator, two engineers, medic and
steward. The ship can carry 10 high or middle passengers (8 if gunners are
present). The ship takes 11 months to build. It costs around MCr 100, due to
generous discounts offered by the manufacturers.

-------------------------------------------

Description:

The Wizard's Gift Frontier Trader is essentially a slightly modified copy of
a common Zhodani design, intended for sale to Zhodani client states and
independent worlds. It is commonly available relatively cheaply, due to
Zhodani subsidies.

Several examples of the type have found their way into Imperial space.
Fortunately, the modifications made to the original design mainly involved
reconfiguring it to match standard Imperial systems. As such, finding
facilities capable of maintaining these vessels is relatively
straightforward in Imperial space.

These vessels are cheap, good quality, and easy to maintain. So what's the
catch?

Well, nearly anyone you come across will assume that you are some kind of
"Joe-lover", for starters...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 06:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Jun 22 05:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo roundup Entry. MT 3 dton Lifeboat
Message-ID: <3D151C54.9F98308C@mindspring.com>

After seeing the other life boats I couldn't resist giving it a try.

Permission is granted to post this to any site as long as my name
remains attached.

The LSP Lifepod is one answer to the requirement that all Imperial ships
built after 1120 have sufficient lifeboats to evacuate
the passengers and crew. Naval and IISS vessels are exempt from this
requirement. The 1.5 Kl of cargo is packed with
survival equipment including clothing, shelter, food, water, tools and
weapons. Although the pod is capable of ramming for fuel,
it is not a recommended evolution. The 0bis computer is programmed with
several basic maneuvers, Orbit nearest planet,
Land, etc.

Once inside the occupants need only pull a lever for the pod to seal and
launch itself. It automatically moves away from the
parent vessel, stopping at a distance of 50,000 Km and activating a
distress beacon. If near a planet, it automatically orbits.

As it is not intended to redock it only requires 3 dtons volume on the
parent ship

Craft ID:   LSP Lifepod, TL 13, 2.252 Mcr, Quantity discount 1.802 MCr

Hull:         3/7, Disp=3, Config=3Sl, Armor=40F, Loaded=50.77,
Unloaded=48.186

Power:     Primary 0/0, Fusion=5.1 Mw, Duration=75 days, Scoops
                ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=77 days

Loco:       0/0 Maneuver(AntiGrav)=1G, Agility=0

Comm:    Radio=System x 1

Sensors:  A-EMS (FrOb) x 1
               Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=-  POP=-  PES=-  PEP=-

Off:        1 Hardpoints, 0 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
Def:        Def DM= 2

Control:  Computer=Model 0bis x 3, Panels=Holographic Linked x  7,

Accom:  Crew=1 ( Bridge=1 ), Seats, Cramped x 8, Env=basic env, basic
ls, extended ls, Airlocks x 1

Other:    Cargo=1.5 Kl/0.1 tons, EMLevel=Faint, Fuel=15 Kl/1 tons,
ObjSize=small,  Ram time= 1.9 hours


Author: Alan Spik

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith,
I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile!
                         -Kurt Vonnegut Jr.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 07:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Jun 22 06:41:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Rationalizing the 6 G limit
Message-ID: <200206221340.IZV01614@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>All this stuff on drives has got me thinking.  Has anyone 
>worked up a rationalization for the 6 G acceleration?
>

I used to really like the COACC supplement.  I routinely 
designed fighter aircraft that had much higher acceleration 
using fusion engines than any ship.  But, I had a 
rationalization that grav compensators had a difficult time 
handling over 6G - for reasons that are not overcome until TL 
16.

So if you had, say, a 15G fighter, the pilot *had* to be in 
an acceleration couch.

I also go on the assumption that missiles have a 50G 
acceleration (or more - some are designed as short-range, 
fast-attack weapons).

I'm also going on the assumption that a portion of the 
displacement set aside for, say, a 6G maneuver drive versus a 
3G maneuver drive is the grav compensators - they represent 
more and more of the displacement as the G rating goes up.

I'm not sure that passengers and cargo could handle high G 
loads., Aside from the old "All Hands Brace For 
Acceleration", I don't believe that sufficient warning could 
be given to a military ship with 500 personnel aboard - 
injuries are going to take place, and at 6G, if you're not 
strapped down, you're going to go flying into the equipment.

We might add the old Joe Haldeman thing, and say that if the 
ship is run by computer, and *all* hands go into the low 
berths, then the ship should be capable of higher 
acceleration.  But there's a point of diminishing returns (in 
HG at least) for high agility and how big the powerplant 
starts to get.

Smaller ships, such as those below 100 dTons with a handful 
of people aboard should be capable of higher accelerations if 
they aren't going to carry any cargo or passengers.

________________
A space traveller
Standing on the boarding ramp
Another journey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 07:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Jun 22 06:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo Roundup Entry: Jackal Class SDB
Message-ID: <3D152A23.A1D9FE92@mindspring.com>

The Jackal Class SDB is designed to lurk in the hidden corners of the
system waiting to pounce on invaders. They are also occasionally carried
aboard larger vessels. The Jackal class is equipped with purifiers to
aid in refueling of starships.
 
Craft ID: Jackal Class System Defense Boat, TL 15, 4015.792 Mcr,
Quantity discount 3614.213 MCr 

Hull:     2700/6750, Disp=3,000, Config=1Af, Armor=61G(7),
Loaded=85980.867, Unloaded=83522.755

Power:   Primary 147/294, Fusion=39,600 Mw, Duration=30 days, Scoops,
Purifiers 521 hours 
         Secondary 320/640, Fusion=86,400 Mw, duration=3 days 
         ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=47 days

Loco:    459/918 Maneuver=6G, Agility=0/3

Comm:    Radio=System x 2, Laser=System x 2, Meson=System x 1

Sensors: A-EMS (FrOb) x 1, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 1, Hi-pen(1Km) x 1,
Neutrino(10Kw) x 1, EMS Jammer (FrOb)  x 1 
         Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=R  POP=R  PES=S  PEP=R

Off:     30 Hardpoints, 30 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100% 
         Turrets:  Triple BLaser-13     x 10 in 5 battery 
         Triple Missile-13              x 10 in 1 battery 
         Triple Sand-10                 x  6 in 6 battery 
         Particle Acc-15                x  4 in 1 battery 
         Missile magazine: HE=40 b/r, Nuclear=10 b/r 
         Total=1200 HE, 300 Nuclear missiles. 1 b/r=30missiles 
         Combat Statistics: 
                   T    B    S                                 T   B  
S                                  
         P.A.      4    -     -                       BLaser   5    -   
-              
                   1                                          
5                         
         Missile   7   -     -                        Sand     5    -   
- 
                   1                                           3

Def:     Def DM= 12, EMM, Nuclear Damper F9, Meson Screen F2

Control: Computer=Model 9/fib w/ Circuit protection x 3,
Panels=Holographic Linked x  4,630, HUD holo x  41,  
         Large Holodisplay x 1

Accom:   Officer=11 Crew=53 ( Bridge=7 Engineering=6 Maintenance=5
Gunners=29 Flight=3 Command=10 Stewards=2
         Medical=2 Frozen=21 x 2 ), Staterooms=2, Small Staterooms=62,
Low berths=50, Emergency Low=16 
         Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates, inertial
comp, Airlocks x 4

Subcraft:Pinnance x 1 (40 tons crew=2 TL 15)

Other:   Cargo=1242.5 Kl/92 tons, EMLevel=Faint/Moderate, Fuel=17366
Kl/1286 tons, ObjSize=Large, 
         Std. Sickbay x 1, Gym x1, Ram time= 2.1 hours


Author: Alan Spik 

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith,
I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile!
                         -Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 08:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Jun 22 07:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rodeo entry: Fleet Fuel Lighter
Message-ID: <3D152D73.376517B3@mindspring.com>

The fleet fuel lighter operates in support of Bases and is often carried
as a subcraft on the largest Capital Ships and Tankers. The lighter
delivers up to 8,700 tons of unrefined fuel per trip. 

Craft ID: Fleet Fuel Lighter, TL 15, 1862.138 Mcr, Quantity discount
1675.924 MCr 

Hull:     9000/22500, Disp=10000, Config=1Sl, Armour=40G,
Loaded=56616.193, Unloaded=48287.727

Power:   Primary 200/400, Fusion=54,000 Mw, Duration=4392hrs/183 days,
Scoops, 
         ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=14470hrs/603 days

Loco:   450/900 Maneuver=2G, Agility=0

Comm:   Radio=System x2, Laser=System x2

Sensors: A-EMS (FrOb) x 2, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 2  
         Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=R  POP=-  PES=R  PEP=-

Off:    100 Hardpoints, 100 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100% 
        Turrets:  Triple Laser-13     x 10 in 10 battery 
        Triple Sand-10      x 90 in 9 battery 
        Combat Statistics: 
                  T    B    S 
        Laser     4    -    - 
                  10 
        Sand      9    -    - 
                  9
Def:    Def DM= 7

Control: Computer=Model 7/fibw/ Circuit protection x 3,
Panels=Holographic Linked x 2644, HUD holo x 31

Accom:   Officer=6 Crew=35 ( Bridge=6 Engineering=6 Gunners=22 Command=6
Stewards=1),  Small Staterooms=5,
         Bunks=40, Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates,
inertial comp, Airlocks x 4

Other:  Cargo=27.6 Kl/2 tons, EMLevel=Moderate, Fuel=18584 Kl/8784 tons,
ObjSize=Large, Ram time= 4.4 hours


Author: Alan Spik 
-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith,
I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile!
                         -Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 08:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark A Nordstrand)
Date: Sat Jun 22 07:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] software release (linux) (finally)
References: <200206221340.IZV01614@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D149A29.A13AA7CD@visi.com>

Announcing version 0.11.0 of the software formally known 
as Mark's Traveller Utilities.  The most significant 
features in this release include a sector generator, 
editing the sector files (finally), cargo generation from 
books 2 and 7, better support for bringing in new universes, 
and a release of a significant chunk of my source tree.  
The later in the interest of 'release early / release often' 
(well, the former anyway, I'm afraid I've gotten worse 
about updates).

For more reasons than can be listed on a list such as this, 
the whole sha-bang is now hosted on sourceforge and is 
available at:

http://mtu.sourceforge.net/ 

and is currently composed of:

mtu - main menuing program
	Drives individual "universes."  In essence, allows 
	collections of sector files to be grouped together.  
	Outputs dot maps to post-script or a graphics format.
secgen - create sectors
	Creates sectors with gradients for system density and
	maturity.  As with the system generator, allows use
	of the language files for naming.  Optionally, can 
	also generate individual system information.
sector - view, print, and edit sectors
	Takes a sector file and formats a map with location, 
	name, UWP, gas giant presence, base and allegiance 
	coding.  Also allows addition of color borders and 
	routes.  Outputs any range of worlds to postscript or 
	a graphics format.
sysgen - generate star systems
	Allows full automatic generation or manual 
	intervention of Book 6 star system generation.
	Can use the language data for naming.
system - view edit and print star systems
	Edits a file from sysgen.  Presents orbits in a tree 
	like manner and as concentric circles.  Outputs to 
	postscript or a graphics format.
enc_tbl - generate encounter tables
	Given a UWP, will generate a single animal encounter, 
	an encounter table for a particular terrain, or 
	tables for all terrains.  Formats output for CT, MT, 
	TNE, and T4 in either plain text or postscript.
trade - generate trade information for a world
	Given a sector and a single location, generates 
	speculative trade, as well as cargo and passengers 
	for other locations within 6 parsecs.
world - generate and print world details
	Rapidly (re)generates WBH type data.  Allows 
	intervention for terraforming and rotational period.

Also included are a collection of programs for converting 
the useful data files (for MTU) from other formats.  

There are also screenshots and sample postscript output at
http://mtu.sourceforge.net/sc.html

Available as what is being called 'the other package' are 
the following:

dice - quick-n-dirty dice hack
	Rolls dice.  Whoopdy-do.  Mostly written to find out 
	how to use the widgets...
word - generate random words
	Based on the tables presented in the Alien Modules (I 
	believe).  Currently includes data files for droyne, 
	trokh, zhodani, gvegh, and vilani.  Others are, of
	course, only limited by the imagination of the user.
hg - Book 5 (2nd ed.) design program
	Designs starships and spaceships based on High Guard 
	(2nd. ed.).  Presents the formatted USP and a tabular
	worksheet to aid in the design process.  Either can 
	be saved to disk or a printer.
robots - Book 8 design program
	Pretty much the same as hg, only for robots instead
	of space/star ships.
table - table roller
	Based on JimV's rand.  Allows a means of rolling 
	against random table(s).
player - player generator
	Generates players (and potentially, npc's).  Currently
	includes data files for MT and T4.
ffs/* - fire fusion & steel program(s)
	A hybrid of both versions and some of my own ideas.

Of these, the first 4 I consider feature complete, and the
fifth is about as feature complete as it ever will be.  
Bugs are undoubtedly present.  Some of the known issues 
include:

hg - Has some issues with large values, and the hard point
	usage could use some work.
player - Needs some serious work with advanced generation,
	and this aspect isn't worth using at this time.  Only 
	text based.  There is GUI code, but this seems to 
	significantly hold back the development time.
ffs - Far from complete.  Currently, just totals values and
	does basic error checking.  Output is currently only
	text and there is probably still issues with orders of
	magnitude (k, M, etc.).

-- 
Mark

dum-dum-dum, dum-dum-dee

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 08:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Jun 22 07:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Has anyone landgrabbed Vilis?
Message-ID: <3D1488FB.45E970C3@mail.cswnet.com>

Alan Bradley writes:
>What the subject line says: Has anyone landgrabbed Vilis.
>
>If not, I am _considering_ it. I think that the Imperium's own high
>population Sword World needs a bit of attention.

Frontier Worlds Realty, located in the plaza section of Nimmi Shis,
Arba, has been trying to sell this property for a while. You'll have
three neighbors on the frontier line [Saurus, Tavonii, and Arba] plus
Ficant isn't far off. Prime real estate for the landgrabber who wants
everything.

Snatch it up today!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 09:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Jun 22 08:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Dumb Questions
In-Reply-To: <3D1488FB.45E970C3@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020622101836.0098d6e0@minn.net>

Need following:

1. Size and TO&E of present day US Army Ranger or Airborne Infantry Battalion.

2. Size and TO&E of present day Russian (or Soviet) Airborne Regiment.

3. Size in displacement tons of TL 9 Laser Tank.

I wouldn't want to do forced entry operations on Agidda or Nusku from a
contverted civil transport. ;)


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 09:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Jun 22 08:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How dangerous is the exhaust then?
In-Reply-To: <B93963C9.6104C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B93963C9.6104C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3lm97e37p.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> You make a good argument for good old water, which is know for its
> ability to absorb heat (one calorie will raise 1 g 1 degree
> celcius).

Don't forget that 1 BTU will raise 1 pound of water 1 Fahrenheit
degree in one hour.  Which is cool.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There is no problem which cannot be solved by the judicious application
of firepower.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 09:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Jun 22 08:41:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Fun Jobs In The IW's
In-Reply-To: <F6ZCyECQ5IVaMASsTY000002fb8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020622103948.009942f0@minn.net>

At 05:21 AM 6/22/2002 +0000, Mr. Whipsnade wrote:

>     "Imagine for a moment that you're a mercenary pilot hired the fly the 
>SDB MUGABE over Harare during the Independence Day parade, and a Vilani 
>strike force suddenly drops into the Solar System."
>
>     Oooh, NASTY.  But if I survive, His Majesty Emperor Robert the 23rd of 
>Zimbabwe will give me someone else's farm.  ;)

Another fun position to be to would be the military police/shore patrol in
Prometheus Downport when both the Chileian (sp?) frigate PINOCHET and the
EUSN(UK) Blair are in port. <another evil grin>


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"HERETI-CORP snipers taste like turkey and are easier to spot!
MUNCH, MUNCH" --Sluggy Freelance, June 18, [www.sluggy.com]
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Jun 22 09:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Jun 22 08:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Query
In-Reply-To: <3D13D2FB.9030509@gmx.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020620084351.00a05070@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020622082337.009ff380@mindspring.com>

At 11:29 AM 6/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
>>Take for example my dream of being an exploratory starship.  I'd create 
>>several virtual rooms.  A bridge (pure classic Trek) a living room, other 
>>rooms as needed.  I would have an avatar, and several AI functions to 
>>provide me with opponents for games... (or other activities.)
>
>Why AI? why not take engrams of a few friends...there is a book pon the 
>shelves at the moment detailing an adventure of an engram crewed 
>exploritory ship (the name escapes me ). depending on the hardware you 
>could have anything from a virtual type S to the entire population of any 
>given city. Friends, family, etc

Depends.  I know few people who would want to spend years and years with 
me.  Also, I figure storing a (formerly) living mind is going to take a 
great deal of space and power.  It might be easier to store many 
limited-use AIs and a few more competent ones.

>Or the mother ship arrives in system, refuels, repairs and makes a 
>exploratory hub, copies or installs you and you build and explore/colonise 
>the system while the mother ship moves on. There could be 50 or 60 or 
>whatever "Doug Berry" systems out there

I've gotten the outline for a triology on this subject.  Book one is the 
fight to determine wether a uploaded mind is in fact a person, and the 
exploration of the abilities of the hero in his new environment.  Book two 
is his career as an explorer, and in each new system he does create copies 
of himself.  This comes back to haunt him millions of years later when he 
learns that one of his children has gone all messianic, starting a war 
against the other shipminds and humanity.  Book three is the saving of 
humanity by the original hero, and their resettlement in one of the 
satellite galaxies.

It's something I've played with on and of for a few years.  I really should 
try to sell a few short stories first.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                    - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever


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